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Perfectionism at Work: The Good, The Bad, and The Exhausting
41 Plays25 days ago
Dr Hayley Lewis joined me to talk about perfectionism in leadership—when it’s helpful, when it holds us back, and what we can do about it.
We get into:
- What perfectionism actually is (and isn’t)
- The toll it can take on leaders and teams
- How to spot it in yourself or others
- Ways to loosen its grip (without lowering your standards)
Reflective practice, micromanagement, inbox zero, and why reframing matters—it’s all in here.
Resources Mentioned
- Gibbs' Reflective Cycle – A useful tool for reframing experiences. Here is a post on Hayley’s website with a link to the free resource: https://halopsychology.com/2025/03/10/why-leaders-should-engage-in-reflective-practice/
- Check out Hayley’s brilliant sketchnotes (available here www.linkedin.com/in/hajlewis and website)
Ways for you to find her:
- Website: www.halopsychology.com
- LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/hajlewis
- Instagram - www.instagram.com/haypsych
Contact Me:
- Find me on LinkedIn
- Book your free 30-minute discovery call with me here:
https://calendly.com/visiblydifferentcorine/1-2-hr-discoverycall
- Download my Leader's Guide to Increasing Your Impact, Influence & Free Time https://www.visibly-different.co.uk/increasing-your-impact/
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with someone who might benefit and don’t forget to leave a rating and review!
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Transcript
The Double-Edged Sword of Perfectionism
00:00:00
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a
00:00:03
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perfectionism isn't in and of itself a bad thing. It's like anything, if we overuse something, it can become a weakness. The perfectionist leader, what does it feel like to be managed by one and what's the kind of impact?
00:00:19
Speaker
I think on the plus side, they're likely to kind of push themselves and push their team. Lots of us though will have examples of unhealthy perfectionism.
00:00:30
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It's essentially micromanagement. just all over their team. And that's not only exhausting for the team, it's exhausting for the manager.
Podcast Introduction: Visible Leader with Corin Hines
00:00:43
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Welcome to the Visible Leader Podcast. I'm Corin Hines and I take a practical approach to leadership, unpacking the art and science of leading well.
00:00:54
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And together with my guests, I explore topics like what leaders are getting wrong about creativity and what to do instead, or fan favorite, how to challenge meeting gridlock.
Reflecting on 'Done is Better than Perfect'
00:01:13
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In December, I set an end-of-year challenge to look ahead to 2025, reflect on 2024, and create a short list of lessons to help you have your best year yet.
00:01:28
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Number one lesson that kept coming up time and again was a version of done is better than perfect, which happens to be something I struggle with myself.
Introducing Dr. Hayley Lewis on Perfectionism
00:01:40
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So i thought... We need to have an episode on perfectionism and who better to have it with than Dr. Hayley Lewis. She's an award-winning psychologist with over 25 years of experience in leadership, culture, and performance.
00:01:58
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She was recognized as one of HR Magazine's 50 most influential thinkers in HR in both 2021 and 2022. twenty twenty two So we are lucky to have her.
00:02:11
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I stumbled on Hayley on LinkedIn because she produces beautiful diagrams which explain theory, make it super practical, and I recommend you follow her too.
00:02:26
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So if you're struggling with perfectionism or you're managing someone that you think is, this episode is for you.
00:02:37
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Welcome Hayley Lewis to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. Good. So Hayley, I think you're a um perfectionist in recovery.
Hayley's Personal Reflection on Perfectionism
00:02:51
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That's my understanding. I am. If you hadn't been such a perfectionist, how would your life have been different? Oh, goodness.
00:03:01
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What a great question. I think I might have taken more chances with my career. I mean, looking back, I took quite a few like compared to other people, but I probably would have taken even more chances and gone for other roles that I kind of wrote myself off because I wasn't going to be perfect for the role.
00:03:24
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I think I'd probably be a nicer person. o You know, my friends and family, you know, love me and But certainly when I was younger and I still have moments of it now, my husband says I live in a constant state of annoyance and it's been the bedrock of our marriage. But yeah, i I think from a very young age, that kind of expectation of me being perfect, which we can talk about later, but also my own internal drive to be perfect was quite a heady combination.
00:03:58
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And growing up, in an environment that was quite volatile, where emotions weren't regulated in a healthy way, i kind of took that into my adult life.
00:04:13
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And I think when things didn't go perfectly, inverted commas, I could be very quick to temper, like zero to 100 miles an hour in five seconds.
00:04:25
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So yeah, I think i probably would have been calmer and a nicer person.
Traits of Perfectionism
00:04:31
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it's probably taken me till now to get to that point. You know, I'm about to turn 51 Interesting.
00:04:39
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I think I would like, Hayley, your definition of perfectionism, because I think it's probably different things in different people's minds about what it actually means. Yeah, there's very clear criteria for perfectionists. So the most obvious one that probably lots of your listeners will go, yep, I either do that or I know somebody who's like that, tend to be hypersensitive to criticism.
00:05:06
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no matter constructively it's framed. So yeah, perfectionists can be hypersensitive to criticism. They often seek constant reassurance and that can manifest in a number of ways.
00:05:20
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So another characteristic is that they're reticent to take on anything that has a high likelihood of failure or they'll avoid it completely. And again, we can often see that in the workplace, that person kind of who holds back from taking on that project.
00:05:38
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They'll often have extremely high, dare I say, unrealistic standards that they'll hold themselves and other people to. And more than anything, they're they're kind of just overly critical of themselves, of others.
00:05:53
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So that's the kind of checklist really that goes through my mind and that comes out of the various research into perfectionism over the the decades. Just starting to make me rethink my own diagnosis Hayley I feel like this podcast is going to be about me and you're going to help me work through I think maybe we've got a different disease but we're going to find out by the end what that is. not a disease I'm sorry Hayley but I feel like
00:06:28
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I don't resonate with that many of those things. How interesting. What do you resonate then? What's your definition? I hold back on getting stuff out and I really like reading up on the right way.
00:06:45
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You know, like I won't trust myself. So that's the failure thing. Yeah, yeah. But I definitely take on too much and I don't kind of think, oh, I won't do that because it might not work. I'm not like that.
00:06:57
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Am I hyper-sensitive to criticism? We need my husband on a three-way call. i think I've learned to be better because of my job. Yeah, exactly. Which is absolutely important. So I think I might have learned my way out of that one. Yeah.
00:07:12
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It's very difficult, isn't it? Because what I find with lots of these things, it depends who you compare yourself to. Yes. it's not about ticking all of them. No, no. It really matters. There'll be certain situations where maybe one or two of those things manifest for you and others where it's different.
Perfectionism Types by Hewitt and Flett
00:07:30
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So context really matters, who you're with, how you're feeling.
00:07:35
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you know The other thing I kind of want to flag, there was a really helpful framework by two researchers called Hewitt and Flett, which they created in the 1990s. And so they suggest there's three types of perfectionisms.
00:07:50
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There's what they call self-oriented perfectionism. So that's where we are our own worst enemy. It's kind of coming from us. no one else.
00:08:01
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There's socially prescribed perfectionism, which I think we see in certain cultures. I think women, societally, potentially fall into that category.
00:08:16
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When we had the pre-meet, Corinne, I talked about my friend Michelle Minikin's excellent book called Good girl deprogramming. And it's one of the things she talks about, you know, we're often taught from a very early age as little girls through to adults about you've got to look nice. You've got to make sure you're clean and tidy and perfect and you have to behave impeccably and you kind of take that into to adult life.
00:08:43
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And then there's the third one, which they call other-oriented perfectionism. And that's where you're expecting others to be perfect, whether that's your spouse, whether that's your children, whether that's your employees, if you're a manager.
00:08:57
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And you might be in all three categories, be one, but I find that categorization quite helpful. No, that is interesting. don't know if this is a valid question, but what's the opposite of a perfectionist?
00:09:11
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you know the word that popped into my head is maverick. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. But then when I think that through, i think Mavericks might have high standards of others.
00:09:22
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o I'm not sure, actually, but that was the word that popped into my head. Somebody who's prepared to just wing it. There's that awful phrase, isn't there, that's really overused at the moment, but they're that person who's who's prepared to build the plane as they're flying it.
00:09:41
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Oh, God, I actually haven't heard that. I thought it was going be like fail fast. ah But, yeah, that's kind of what goes through my mind. Oh, it's interesting because it's obviously not sloppy, is it? It's not like, oh, if you're not a perfectionist, then you're probably not really that high standards and you're just shoving stuff out the door that you're not that bothered about.
00:10:03
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But somebody else might say it, that is. I reckon a perfectionist would say that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a recovering perfectionist. I'm very proud of myself that I didn't say that. Yeah, well, you were thinking it. but So of what interests me is, you know, the interview question, what are your weaknesses? Hopefully no one's asking anymore. You know, what are what are your weaknesses? And people are like, oh, you know, I'm perfectionist. I'm too nice. I'm too nice. No, but see, both of those can be really...
00:10:34
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unwieldy things for a leader to be too nice and too much of perfectionist. And actually might sound like, well, the opposite of nice could be arrogant and that wouldn't be great. But actually, maybe the opposite of nice is somebody that knows their boundaries and can be assertive. And the opposite perfectionist is a maverick that gets stuff out the door and and experiments and everything. So I will have to think of a different answer to that question and if I ever get interviewed.
00:11:01
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So upsides of perfectionism. So we've looked at how it can be quite damaging for yourself and for maybe people in your team, but let's make it a bit well-rounded. do you see as the the positives?
00:11:17
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So if you're working with a ah perfectionist, you're likely to get a really thorough, well-thought-through approach well put together piece of work.
00:11:29
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I think that's an upside, but again, that needs to be handled really well in terms of the feedback you give and what you're recognising. Attention to detail, potentially. That's
Adaptive vs Maladaptive Perfectionism
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not to say non-perfectionists don't have attention to detail. And we're starting to kind of, this is where it all all starts to become a bit of a Venn diagram or a Rubik's cube where you've personality and personality.
00:11:55
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and kind of upbringing and all sorts starting to come into play. But if I think back to some of the perfectionists I have worked with and still work with, I think, yeah, that attention to detail, you feel that they care is another upside. But I am going to go into the downside, sometimes at their own expense.
00:12:16
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Yeah, absolutely. i just thought it was useful to look across. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, because otherwise it can be like, we need to banish this. But actually, you know, it is your recovering, but there's aspects of it that you know make you as good as you are.
00:12:30
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Yeah, well and I just want to highlight there is a difference between what we call maladaptive perfectionism, where it's kind of veered into really gnarly negative territory,
00:12:46
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where you can't do right for doing wrong, yeah others can't do right for doing wrong, and what we call adaptive perfectionism, which is about striving to achieve high standards, not unrealistic standards, high standards.
00:12:59
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So I think there's that nuance that's really important. perfectionism isn't in and of itself a bad thing it's like anything it's like for example aspects of our personality if we overuse something it can become a weakness and and we can fall into what we call in psychology the shadow side I think it's really important to kind of flag that Yeah, I definitely agree. And I think all of these things have so many sides and so much complexity, but it's still really interesting to still look at it.
00:13:31
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We don't need to nail every side, even though the urge from one perfectionist to another is to do this very thoroughly, but making sure we've covered everything. yeah Although, you know, whether I am or not, still to be decided.
00:13:44
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So the perfectionist leader, we talked a little bit about what it's like on the good side. So let's just talk in broadly, what what does it feel like to be managed by one and what's a kind of impact?
00:13:59
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I think on the plus side, if you've got healthy perfectionist leader that you're working with, they'll potentially push you to achieve things you might not have thought possible. So they're likely to kind of push themselves and push their team.
00:14:17
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So that's the upside if it's kind of healthy perfectionism.
Impact of Perfectionist Leadership on Teams
00:14:21
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Lots of us, though, will have examples of unhealthy perfectionism where It's essentially micromanagement, constant messaging and checking in on a team. It's almost like you can feel them over your shoulder, wanting to know where you're at all the time with a piece of work, correcting everything to within an inch of its life, just all over their team. And that's not only exhausting for the team, that's exhausting for the manager.
00:14:51
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So impact on individuals, teams, creativity. Obviously, you've got this micromanager thing in the mix as well. I mean, yeah your listeners would be like, well, tell us something we don't know, Hayley. But I'm a big fan of studies that actually reassure us or give us a bit of data around something we might suspect is the case. And it was a hot-of-the-press study.
00:15:16
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that looked at the impact of leader perfectionism when combined with anger on teams' creativity, so creative performance.
00:15:27
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I mean, surprise, surprise, they did three studies. They did the first one with with a large group of people of working age in America. The second was with a group of students in a Filipino university. And the third one was with a group of workers in a Chinese tech company.
00:15:46
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And across those different groupings, they found that high perfectionist leaders who expressed anger around the way a task was going, creative performance tended to diminish.
00:16:01
Speaker
So we might already have suspected that, but here is a study. And of course, like any study, there's flaws in it. you know, if find me study that doesn't have flaws. But I think it gives us some potentially useful insights. And the big takeaway for me...
00:16:16
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If I think about the work that I do with individual leaders or leadership teams is helping them to regulate their emotions. but I've been doing this more than 25 years now and i've I've had the privilege of working with leaders from all stages of their careers and all walks of life.
00:16:34
Speaker
And I think what's interesting to me is often you don't get into the highest positions unless there's an element of perfectionism in your character, you know, that desire to do a great job, you know, delivering excellence. And as I say, that's more the healthy side of perfectionism.
00:16:53
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it's when it can veer into the, as I say, the shadow side. And and and if you have a tendency to lose your temper, well, Marshall Goldsmith had the book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There. And so there's something around that perfectionist tendency that perhaps got you into that leadership position. You're in danger of undermining yourself. If you show your frustration or your anger, actually the danger is your team's performance will diminish.
00:17:22
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So motion regulation is one aspect of how we might support leaders. o Very interesting. I'm i'm just so picking off all the different places it shows up and then we can go, so
Personal Exhaustion from Perfectionism
00:17:35
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what? What can leaders do if they feel that they are perfectionists?
00:17:40
Speaker
If they've got people in their team that are, if they're finding it's holding them back in their progression? Mm-hmm. So the dark side of perfectionism we touched on.
00:17:51
Speaker
Can you dig in that into that a bit more? Because obviously we can see the impact on organisations. What about the impact on that perfectionist themselves if this is really overplayed and isn't being pulled back?
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah, and I can only kind of base it on... my experience of doing an individual one-to-one work with perfectionist leaders and managers. The most common things that I've seen over the years are exhaustion, you know, trying to do all the things exceptionally well.
00:18:22
Speaker
They're often then the people that will work into the early hours of the morning get stuff done, to make sure everything's on track. The reluctance to say no, Because then potentially you're not seen as perfect by others if you're saying no.
00:18:37
Speaker
Again, I think particularly for female leaders. And then that adds to the burden and the exhaustion and probably the losing of tempers. So it becomes like this vicious circle.
00:18:50
Speaker
So the the kind of lack of boundaries creaks. for oneself, which can then have a knock-on effect on those around you. One of the interesting things, it's been coming up quite a ah bit in the last six months with different leaders from different sectors, different industries with the same issue, as well as kind of doing excellent work.
00:19:12
Speaker
to high standards, this pressure they're putting on themselves to have inbox zero. Oh my God. Just come up, you know, I'm not on top of things and thereby I'm not perfect because I'm not keeping on top of my Right.
00:19:28
Speaker
o I've been seeing that a lot and it's just been so fascinating. doesn't matter if it's a director in the NHS or a functional lead in the insurance industry or somebody in the police. It it doesn't it it hasn't mattered.
00:19:43
Speaker
Certainly the last six to 12 months, that's been coming up. It's kind of like if you're not challenging that you can start trying to deal with a symptom, you know, just so and exactly I need to do more in that area. And they so no wonder people are exhausted.
00:20:02
Speaker
And here's the thing, and it's it's just my hypothesis, right? When we're exhausted, we tend to go back to home base, as I call it.
The Perfectionism Paradox Under Exhaustion
00:20:13
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And if for us home base is perfectionism and self-criticism, then when we're exhausted and we've got nothing left in the top, we're going to go back to that place. It's going to make it harder to work on that and hold that to account, certainly if you're trying to do it on your own, would say.
00:20:31
Speaker
and And that's the irony. That's almost like the paradox, right? Yeah, it's terrible, isn't it? It's like that's the thing you're going to return to and it's going to make things even more exhausting. We go to our behaviours that we're used to.
00:20:44
Speaker
yeah No matter if they serve us in a healthy way or they hinder us because it takes less energy. yeah I see this. I see this in my clients and in myself.
00:20:56
Speaker
You know, I think it's it's it's really obvious when that happens. I was reading something about micromanaging because it's a, you know, I see it all the time. And the intent behind that person invariably is positive from their perspective. You know, they want to do a good job and they have various things I hear, which is,
00:21:18
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It's quicker if I do it myself or, you know, i haven't quite got the right team or, you know, I'm just helping them or whatever it is. So I see all these different variations. And then saw something yesterday, which was about fear and how it can come from a place of fear, you know, that that they're stepping into this place quite a lot. So it can come across as being really negative.
00:21:43
Speaker
Yeah. And wanting to be needed. so Yeah. This is a long time ago now when when I worked in a corporate role, but my line manager was very senior in the organization and was a maladaptive. was ah was It was unhealthy perfectionism to the point where I remember...
00:22:03
Speaker
We worked in open plan. I had a number of teams that reported into me and one of my direct reports happened to be sat next to me that day. yeah She happened to kind of glance over my shoulder like she was just sat next to me. She caught sight because I was in my inbox and I'd opened up an email from my line manager.
00:22:21
Speaker
And I kid to you not, he was shouting at me. about something that actually didn't even matter. it was It was some basic report that wasn't even going public for internal use only.
00:22:35
Speaker
And ah kid you not, all caps, all capital letters, red font. ah Red font. He's even taken the time. Yeah, to change it to red. Yeah, my direct reports, I heard her go, like a gasp.
00:22:53
Speaker
And then she said, that how he talks to you? and And I'd got so used to it. I didn't question it anymore. It was just like, oh, okay. and And my reason for sharing that isn't about bitching about a former line manager, because as I got to understand him, and if I think on it now, in terms of where I am now, there's all sorts of stuff I learned about his upbringing, which I'm not going to go into, which helps me understand why he was behaving in that way, because it wasn't just with me. Mm-hmm.
00:23:29
Speaker
There were accusations of bullying. But when I look at the root cause of that behaviour behind it, and it's it's it's what you said triggered this memory, Corinne.
00:23:42
Speaker
Fear of rejection, fear of being seen as less than. I had had a very difficult childhood. And so as an adult wanting to prove himself, wanting to prove he was as good as, and that was driving that behavior. And so actually I look back with compassion and sadness because I see the little boy in that leader.
00:24:09
Speaker
Well, I always think that that's coming from a place of compassion and thinking about, yeah, leading from that place does stop the finger pointing stuff going on and not placing the problem with the person, but looking a bit broader.
00:24:26
Speaker
And so this subject of perfection is going to show up in all sorts of ways and it's not going to feel very helpful and people are going to feel quite overwhelmed themselves or if their boss is one they're going to feel quite overwhelmed so imagine my dear listeners i've started nodding along furiously that they feel that they personally do have these traits and It's not serving them.
00:24:54
Speaker
So they've not got to the place that you've got to where you are using it usefully. What can they do? What's the plan? So we've got like a six month recovery process, lifelong.
00:25:07
Speaker
What's step one? See, I don't think there's a step one. I think there's different things for different people because we're all unique. So I'm not going to go down the step one, do this. What I'm going to suggest, if that's okay, are a variety of things.
00:25:24
Speaker
And you might want to do one of them or you might want to try many of them. And that's your choice. You know, you know where you're at. Dear listener, I feel like I'm from Bridgerton now.
00:25:35
Speaker
I feel like Whistledown for those who watch Bridgerton. Dear listener, One of the things that can be helpful is to not try and work on it on your own. So whether you find a mentor, so maybe somebody you look at who you think seems to or you know that they're slightly ahead of you,
00:25:56
Speaker
on this journey as a leader. So reaching out, getting a mentor or finding a coach if you don't already have one. Some of you might already be working with a coach and whether that's an internal coach to your organisation because I'm conscious of costs or an external coach.
00:26:16
Speaker
Some people prefer to be part of like an action learning set. So a group of leaders where you work through these kind of issues together. My point is it can be really blooming tough to do it on your own.
00:26:30
Speaker
o So working alongside and having someone alongside you, not pontificating at you, but alongside you can be really helpful. I shared a quote on LinkedIn today because I talked about being on this podcast. And it's a quote from Jenny Rogers, who's probably one of the best coaches in the world.
00:26:46
Speaker
And she talked about, you know, in order to feel able to open up about your invulnerability to a coach, you need to know some of their vulnerabilities as well and that they're working alongside you, not doing to you.
Improving Well-being through Reflective Practice
00:26:58
Speaker
um And that really, that really struck with me. So that's the first thing, maybe find your support to help you with this. The other thing i know lots of people have found helpful is, and I'm guessing some of your listeners will already be doing this is reflective practice.
00:27:19
Speaker
e there's so many studies and certainly in my own lived experience of working with lots of leaders that show the benefits of leaders engaging in reflective practice so whether you just have a blank sheet of paper once a week and you just kind of free write or you have some questions that you reflect upon on a daily or weekly basis can offer us really helpful insights.
00:27:46
Speaker
Something I created for my clients, but I'm happy to share it via your podcast. People can kind of access it for free is a weekly self-reflective practice for leaders. And it's based around self-compassion.
00:28:00
Speaker
Just a few questions. to think about something maybe you've struggled with that week, but through the lens of self-compassion so you can start to develop your self-compassion practice.
00:28:10
Speaker
Lovely. Thank you. So there's reflective practice, but then there's something around reflective practice with what we call cognitive reappraisal in psychology. So there was a brilliant study that came out last year.
00:28:22
Speaker
There were hundreds of participants. And when they engaged in nightly reflective practice, a minimum of two hours before bed, every night for three weeks, they They were reflecting on something that had gone wrong in the day, something that they'd struggled with, and then they reframed it.
00:28:43
Speaker
So you can reframe it in terms of what you could learn from the situation or think about it from different people's perspectives. But long story short, what the researchers found is the people in the group who did reflective practice with cognitive reframing and did it every night for three weeks,
00:29:01
Speaker
reported better levels of wellbeing, higher levels of job satisfaction, better self perspective as well. So that might be something. So you've got reflective practice and then you've got you've got a ah certain aspect of reflective practice around reframing and reappraising events can you give me an example think yeah that's happened and that you can reframe yeah so I was working with a group of social workers last week and and this is the example I gave them and then they did an activity around this so the example I i gave was you've gone for a job that you really wanted but you don't get it you've now got a choice of
00:29:43
Speaker
how you respond. Are you going to lose your temper? Are you going to bitch about the hiring panel and how rubbish they are? Are you going to compare yourself against who got the job, particularly if you're internal candidate? So there's all sorts of choices you could make.
00:30:01
Speaker
And those are legitimate. You know, you feel what you feel. 24 hours later, you ruminate on it and you have a little think and you decide to reappraise.
00:30:14
Speaker
And actually, you think about it. So from a learning perspective, it's an opportunity to learn from the feedback from the interview. it actually gave you an opportunity to dust off your CV because the last time you went for an interview was 10 years ago.
00:30:31
Speaker
and you haven't updated your CV or your LinkedIn and all that time. So it's actually given you the opportunity to update that. You can expand your network. So you could reach out to the headhunters or the the hiring manager and make sure you keep in touch with them. So there's an opportunity to expand your network.
00:30:49
Speaker
So just taking that time when you've got enough kind of distance and space to reappraise and reframe the situation. I think what's really important for the example is you're not suppressing feelings.
00:31:05
Speaker
You're allowed to feel miffed and disappointed and and a bitch about the interviewer's lack of but asking you what your weakness is and knowing that's a rubbish question.
00:31:16
Speaker
You're allowed to have all that that. That's like having those emotions and those reactions is really okay. But the regulating of it is the... reframing it once you've given yourself a bit of time yeah i normally say 24 to 48 hours put pen to paper see it from a different perspective maybe put yourself in the shoes of the hiring manager what pressure are they under this is compassion as well as yeah absolutely and then what the learning is and what the opportunities are on the back of this situation
00:31:51
Speaker
So this is coming from a perfectionist, not myself, I'm reviewing that, but from a perspective of a perfectionist, they might not do things because of this risk of how bad it feels when things don't go well and how much ruminating on it has really affected them in the past and all of that negative experience might be, oh, it's just not worth going there. Whereas if we have this really healthy, reflective practice of reframing, then you can get more comfortable with bit of pain.
00:32:27
Speaker
But actually, and i think this whole thing about the maverick has really stuck with me thinking about actually there's this other identity that you could be reflecting on. Like it doesn't have to be the maverick, but it could be somebody who experiments and values that. That's a useful thing.
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know if you use that language in your coaching, but I certainly talk about experimentation with my coaching clients. When I started, I mean, I've been coaching more than 20 years. And I remember when I started off, because you stick rigidly to your frameworks because you're a novice. But I remember I used to, at the end of the session, I'd be saying, what homework are you going to set yourself?
00:33:10
Speaker
I never use that language now. haven't used it for a very long time for two reasons. First, certainly many of my clients who are in their 40s and 50s, and certainly those in the UK, are in the UK education system, which dare I say it,
00:33:25
Speaker
having been in the system myself in the 70s and 80s, can be quite brutal. And no wonder we've got lots of perfectionists in the workplace. And so I don't use that language. I use the word that you've just used, which is, what do you want to experiment with this month?
00:33:40
Speaker
Absolutely. Because with my scientist hat on, so with my my kind of researcher hat on, you see everything as an experiment and everything is data. Even when it doesn't go according to plan, it's like, oh that's really interesting. Why didn't that work? What do I need to do differently next time? So I love, love, love that word you use, Corinne, of experimentation.
00:34:01
Speaker
I love data as well because I i see feedback as data. yeah isn't it's It's not like a truth, it's data. It's it's going to feed into what we do next. I love that thing you said about coaches being able to have that vulnerability working alongside because I think – seeking feedback is really hard always is like and i'm like i'll tell people i'm like i want to hear where we're at with this and if it's stuff that you are not landing with you over it's really important to me it still feels like a knife in the ribs
00:34:39
Speaker
sometimes it does sometimes i feel like oh, I've really tried and it hasn't gone how I wanted it to. But the fact that over the years of like going, actually it's data, it's useful. And I've really seen the difference between the ruminating and the beating myself up and being horribly upset about myself and actually just going, okay, what is this telling me about the system?
00:35:02
Speaker
But that initial thing, obviously I'm probably going, oh my God, I'm not good enough. And then like, oh, yeah Well, that's why a good coach will be paying for coaching supervision. Everything is data is my coaching supervisor's mantra. you know i Not only am i a recovering perfectionist, I have rescuer superhero tendencies as well. And it's a really heady combination. I'll be working on it till the day I die. And yeah I'm a hell of a lot better than the Hayley 10 years ago 20 years ago.
00:35:32
Speaker
But my point is, even as coaches, we can't work on this stuff on our own. And it's really important we're working on our stuff so that we're helping the clients who are our listeners, people who are listening to this podcast, we can help them in the best
The Role of Coaching Supervision
00:35:48
Speaker
way possible. So that's my top tip, actually, for any of the listeners who are looking for a coach. One of the questions you should ask is, are you engaged with a coaching supervisor? Because you want to know your coach is doing the work as well, ah which helps them then work alongside you.
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. My what is this telling us about the system? That is from my supervisor. And I do, and it really helps because you can get sucked into things. So yeah very good question. Top, top tip.
00:36:17
Speaker
Anything else when we think about perfectionism? Managing perfectionists? If you suspect that you're managing a perfectionist who might be veering into that unhealthy perfectionism,
00:36:29
Speaker
you need to be really careful about how you give feedback. So you need to give a little bit more thought than you might do normally. There was a ah piece of research that that found when those high imperfectionism got critical feedback, their performance dropped.
00:36:49
Speaker
particularly the men in the group so the males who were high perfectionist their performance dropped when they felt they were criticized so it's not what i'm not saying is you can't ever give feedback what i'm saying is you might just need to think a bit more carefully about the message and how you land it And this is where taking a coaching approach in giving feedback and one-to-ones can be really helpful and coming at it from a compassionate point of view, not a judgmental, particularly if something's gone wrong.
00:37:26
Speaker
and And I always feel like people feel they need to give feedback. Like obviously feedback's important. It's a really important part of my practice that where i like I take a stakeholder approach. So I bring them in, but you know, I think, well, why don't we ask some great questions for for helping them think about that, how it went, you know, cause a lot of this is in them.
00:37:48
Speaker
Like I need to share, but let's encourage them to think and then you can help them. And then, help them kind of reflect and reframe because that's probably quite an important part of it exactly you're probably familiar with this and some of your listeners might be already familiar with it there's a a lovely framework that absolutely helps with what you're suggesting Corinne called Gibbs reflective framework and it's a framework specifically designed to help someone reflect when something's failed when something's gone wrong And it's a step-by-step approach. I've got sketchnote summary of it. and so I love your sketchnote summaries. Thank you very much. World famous sketchnote summaries.
00:38:28
Speaker
I can send that over. Listen, if you haven't found Hayley on LinkedIn, you need to. She does sketchnote summaries, which will change your life. Just saying.
00:38:39
Speaker
The other thing about the feedback thing is positive reinforcement. The more I've read about positive reinforcement, the more I'm kind of seeing it everywhere and thinking, God, actually, why don't we look for the stuff that went
Encouraging Positive Behaviors to Combat Perfectionism
00:38:51
Speaker
well? Like was with a client the other day and there's some things that are ah clear. You know, there's some there's some behaviors that they're...
00:38:58
Speaker
employee is really aware of that they need to to work on and we were just thinking like together as a group we did it openly it wasn't like a secret and my encouragement was for every time you see it done slightly differently in a way that is more positive grab that grab all those times and get those in because i just feel like that is such a nicer way of being able to be encouraged to take that, you know. And so when we think about perfectionism, if it is delegating and not micromanaging and and anything you notice that is in the direction that you want to go in, feels like such a great way of developing that relationship.
00:39:41
Speaker
Yeah. What are you rewarding? what are you recognizing? If there's someone listening to this who's thinking, don't know if I'm a perfectionist or if I'm that person or if I'm, you know, those traits, what would you give as advice for them? If they're not person that's gone tick, tick, tick, if they're questioning it, what would you point them at?
00:40:01
Speaker
Well, first of all, well done for questioning it. That's the first step. The fact that you're prepared to lean in and question, well, am I? That's a really good first step. Now, here's the irony and another paradox it's probably good to get some feedback because you need to know the impact you're having on others, the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's why with many of the managers and leaders that i work with, often at some point in the coaching, certainly not at the start, you know if they are somebody who is feeling quite vulnerable, who is highly self-critical,
00:40:40
Speaker
I wouldn't suggest this straight up. We've got to build that relationship first and I've got to get them to a better place. But certainly at some point they will be open to something, for example, like 360 degree feedback.
00:40:51
Speaker
And that's not done to them, that's done with them. And it's highly facilitated. So it's a safe space to explore some of the stuff that comes out. And nine times out of 10, there will be some very clear themes coming out that help us understand how perfectionism and hypercriticism might be showing up for a leader.
00:41:17
Speaker
And good point to mention about the right timing, because that can be very destructive if it's not done with the right kind of timing. And also we've mentioned Marshall Goldsmith, feed forward, nice, gentle ease in.
00:41:30
Speaker
You know, you go to people saying, this is what I'm working on. So I'm looking at my perfectionism, describe it. What suggestions have you got for things that i could do that would help me? like overcome it even more so it's a safer place I like ah love starting like that because you can still get to hear things but it's done very constructively and future focused rather than feeling like you're going to be wounded because I think it can be quite vulnerable place Hayley I've mentioned you on LinkedIn like every single listener needs to follow you
00:42:02
Speaker
Thank you. How can we find you? how can we work with you? The most common place to find me, is as Corinne, as helpfully pointed out, is LinkedIn. i tend to be there the most. I'm also on Instagram at Haypsych.
00:42:17
Speaker
And my website, which sets out how you can work with me, but also has tons of free resources and articles, is halopsychology.com. But all of these will be in the show notes.
00:42:29
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you very much. I knew it was going to be a pleasure talking to you. ah feel like this is just one in a series. Yeah, I'm up for that. It was really, really lovely. So thank you so much for your brilliant insights and your perspective because you, like you say, you practice what you preach, you come at this with compassion and that's just evident in what you do.
00:42:51
Speaker
Thank you ever so much for having me and thank you everybody for sticking with us and listening. Hopefully you got something out of it today. Thanks for listening to the Visible Leader podcast.
00:43:03
Speaker
To stay up to date with the latest episode, hit the subscribe button. And I'd love to hear what you think, so please leave me a review. If you have any questions or comments, reach out to me, Corinne Hines on LinkedIn.