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The Power of Weekly (Yes Weekly!) 1-2-1s : Dr Steven Rogelberg Shares Research-Backed Strategies
48 Plays6 months ago
Dr. Steven Rogelberg is an organizational psychologist whose award-winning research into meetings led to the publication of the highly successful book The Surprising Science of Meetings.
And again, he’s taken that research-based approach with his latest book – the excellent Glad We Met: The Art and Science of 1:1 meetings.
In this episode we challenge the idea that 1:1s are an optional extra for team members who ‘need’ them - and offer a framework for how to get started.
We talk about:
- What the research says and why 121s matter to your team members
- Whether you can be too senior to need a 121.
- What leaders are getting wrong.
- The mechanics of what a good 121 should look like.
- How to get started for leaders and for HR
You can find resources on Dr. Steven Rogelberg’s website: www.stevenrogelberg.com
And find his book here: Glad We Met: The Art and Science of 1:1 Meetings
Click here to get your free copy of my Leader's Guide to Increasing Your Impact, Influence & Free Time [www.visibly-different.co.uk/increasing-your-impact]
And if you enjoyed the Podcast, please share with someone who might benefit and leave a rating and review.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to One-on-One Meetings
00:00:00
Speaker
A manager goes into this one-on-one and typically that looks like a big status update, right? Where the manager gets together and says, oh, what's going on with that? What's going on with this? That's not the essence of a one-on-one meeting. This meeting is different, right? This is a meeting where the manager can truly engage with the employee on their terms, not the manager's terms. Like we know that when someone truly engages with us,
00:00:27
Speaker
It's a really special feeling. So really the thesis of the book and the science is this is the one meeting that should not be an email. This is the meeting that needs to happen. Welcome to The Visible Leader, the podcast that challenges conventional leadership and inspires you to create a workplace culture that empowers your team.
00:00:53
Speaker
Join me as I talk to thought leaders and changemakers about practical ways to apply new learning and rethink the status quo. Get ready to become a visible leader in your organisation. Way back when I first trained as a coach.
00:01:14
Speaker
I started noticing that the only time a leader sat down and talked about the development goals of their team member was during a joint session that I'd arranged to kick off my coaching program with them. And they'd have this great quality conversation, but they didn't necessarily have any more of them unless I was there booking them in. Fast forward 10 years and I now make
00:01:42
Speaker
leader and direct report one-to-ones, the center stage. And it's less about the coaching I might do. Even though that is important to their development, I see that equally important is the relationship with the leader and their direct report sustaining these high quality conversations long after I've gone. As you can tell, I do get a bit excited about this subject.
00:02:11
Speaker
But if you're thinking, my direct report's way too senior and that wouldn't be a good use of our time. Or if you're completely convinced and you just don't know where to start, then have a listen to this episode because we cover the research and the how-to of having a great one-to-one conversation.
00:02:36
Speaker
Dr. Steven Rogelberg is an organizational psychologist whose award-winning research into meetings led to publication of the highly successful book, The Surprising Science of Meetings. And again, he's taken that research-based approach with his latest book, The Excellent Glad We Met, The Art and Science of One-to-One Meetings. And that's really what led me to you, Steven, because
00:03:04
Speaker
Time and again, I come across leaders treating one-to-ones like an optional extra for team members who need them. I'd like to have a conversation with you to turn that on its head today. Steven, welcome to my podcast. Thank you. It's really good to be here. It's a pleasure. Excellent.
00:03:26
Speaker
First of all, surely experienced senior people don't need regular time in the diary with their boss. Aren't they getting paid enough so that they don't need that kind of direction?
Benefits and Desires of One-on-One Meetings
00:03:40
Speaker
Well, they might be being paid enough, but when we surveyed individuals about their desires for one-on-one meetings, one-on-ones are actually the meeting that employees want to have. And counter to generational stereotypes, we actually found that more senior folks wanted them even more than the junior folks.
00:04:04
Speaker
But then again, a good one-on-one meeting is about being fully seen by a key stakeholder, your manager. And so when we think about the whole nature of a one-on-one meeting, right? It's a regularly occurring meeting between a manager and the direct report.
00:04:21
Speaker
where the manager facilitates and orchestrates, but the meeting is not for them. The meeting is for their direct report, for the direct report to share what's on their minds, their concerns, their worries, and get the help and support and guidance necessary. And so when you think of that definition, this is a meeting that, of course, someone would want. Everyone desires.
00:04:46
Speaker
have an opportunity to share what's on their minds and hopefully get support. What do you think is holding it back
Common Pitfalls and Improvements for One-on-Ones
00:04:54
Speaker
then? Why is it so often I'm walking into my clients and I ask that question and it's really hit and miss. Occasionally I come across people that have got a really good system and they have great conversations.
00:05:08
Speaker
Well, the big problem. Oh, there's so many problems, by the way. So first of all, our research shows that around only 50% of one-on-one meetings are rated as being optimal. That means 50% are rated sub-optimally. Furthermore, we know that
00:05:24
Speaker
There's a blind spot. Managers think these one-on-ones are going better than their directs. Well, that's problematic. We also know that with the exception of just one organization, I could not find any organization that provides thoughtful counsel around doing one-on-ones.
00:05:42
Speaker
So we have a variety of these broader ecosystem issues that are not elevating this practice. So what happens? Well, a manager goes into this one-on-one and they recycle bad practices they themselves have experienced. And typically that looks like a big status update, right? Where the manager gets together and says, oh, what's going on with this? What's going on with that? What's going on with this?
00:06:05
Speaker
That's not the essence of a one-on-one meeting. That's a status update meeting. Managers can get status updates in so many different ways. This meeting is different. This is a meeting where the manager can truly engage with the employee on their terms, not the manager's terms. And going back to something you said earlier, this is not an option for managers.
00:06:31
Speaker
This is a required meeting. This is leadership in action. We all know the adage that people tend not to leave bad jobs, they leave bad bosses. These one-on-ones are your opportunity to prove that you're not a bad boss. As we engage in work, especially in more distributed work environments,
00:06:53
Speaker
this connectivity, this connective tissue between directs and managers has been challenged. And so this is that opportunity to help the direct report feel part of something bigger, to feel like they're being recognized and truly seen, and it matters because the research is clear that when managers are having good one-on-ones with their people, the employees are more engaged,
00:07:20
Speaker
They're thriving. They're more successful. We even have data to suggest that the teams are more successful. And as individuals and teams are successful, guess who benefits? The manager. Exactly.
00:07:33
Speaker
So often, we'll work with a leadership team and they're thinking about engagement surveys. How are we going to get the pulse of what our employees are, where their heads are at? And you're thinking, actually, all the things you've just said there about the quality of those conversations and what that can do for engagement, it makes that process a little bit redundant.
00:07:59
Speaker
Well, what I would say when it comes to these engagement and pulse surveys is that we need to make sure that the content on those is truly capturing what's the most important things in the world of work for employees and managers.
00:08:14
Speaker
And I challenge HR, talent, CEOs to look at their surveys because I am very confident that you will not have content on meetings or one-on-ones. And this is a problem, right? We know that there are challenges around these, but we also know that these are incredibly important workplace activities, right? Meetings are where organizational democracy takes place.
00:08:39
Speaker
one-on-ones are where you truly lead your people. And so we need to have content to make sure that managers are getting the feedback they need and also being held accountable if they can't do it effectively. Yeah, but it is like if asked what you'd want differently,
00:09:01
Speaker
I'm not sure that people that haven't experienced great one-to-ones would ask for them. I don't think that's something that they realize is missing. So they're not seeking them out, they're not asking them because so many people haven't experienced what a really good one looks like.
00:09:17
Speaker
And there's not, like you say, I can't believe, when I read that in your book about one organization is providing that kind of support about what a good one looks like. That's shocking. And these were big organizations and lots of them that you've done it
Best Practices for Effective One-on-Ones
00:09:32
Speaker
with. Yeah. You know, it's so interesting that
00:09:36
Speaker
how people haven't experienced really good ones. And what a problem that is, right? Because when we say a really good one, we mean a manager taking genuine interest in their people.
00:09:51
Speaker
That's a bit scary, really, isn't it? I mean, this is not a radical notion, right? We have known through our research over the last decades that elevating people is not only is it obviously important from a humanitarian moral perspective, but it's the best business decision you can make.
00:10:12
Speaker
This is your way of retaining top talent. The more engaged people are, the more helping, the more they provide better service to customers. There's so many things. So it's fascinating that these blind spots exist because we're all humans. We know the power of connection. We know that when someone truly engages with us, boy,
00:10:38
Speaker
It's a really special feeling. So really the thesis of the book and the science is this is the one meeting that should not be an email. This is the meeting that needs to happen.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, love that. And I think it would be useful to get a sense of some of the mechanics. So we talked a little bit about why they aren't happening so much. But when you think about this meeting, people have different ideas in their head. So some people will think it's an appraisal.
00:11:10
Speaker
Some people will think it's a once a month thing. Some people think it's something that's led by the team member. If you need me, put something in my diary. So I want to hear from you what good looks like from your perspective and the research.
00:11:25
Speaker
So that's a huge question. And obviously, we're just going to be able to touch upon that. But that's really what the book is all about. It's about presenting a whole bunch of evidence-based choices to leaders that they can pick from, that they can consider. Because there's no magic formula. But there is good science around various practices.
00:11:47
Speaker
I'll tee up a few things for you and your audience. So we know that the best outcomes are associated with weekly or every other week, one-on-ones. That the positive benefits decline pretty rapidly, the more space between these. So a monthly one-on-one is certainly better than nothing, but does not yield nearly the same benefits as the weekly or every other week. We also know that
00:12:14
Speaker
the predictability of the contact is important. Then in fact, we even found that some managers reported saving time doing one-on-ones because employees tended just to keep their issues to those meetings as opposed to constantly interrupting the manager. So some managers reported more time and less interruptions. I think that's kind of nifty. So the predictability is critical. If a manager needs to flex with time in one-on-ones, that's okay.
00:12:43
Speaker
We haven't found any particular amount of minutes that's associated with the most positive outcomes. What it always comes down to is quality and whether the manager is truly engaging with the direct on their terms, listening carefully. And also when they're in solutioning, they're encouraging the employee to share ideas. And when the employee shares ideas, they just don't replace it with their own idea.
00:13:10
Speaker
So we've got a predictable cadence. The direct report is actually driving the content and the agenda. So one popular approach is the listing approach where the manager tells the direct, hey, come in with a variety of topics that you would like to talk about. However,
00:13:30
Speaker
This is not about a status update meeting unless you want to. I have no agenda here. My agenda is your agenda. So they need to prime them to think about individual, team, organization, short term, long term. Otherwise, the employee is just going to give them what they think they want to hear. That's not good.
00:13:49
Speaker
Then once the conversation gets going, the manager needs to make sure their mouth is not always open. They need to listen more than they talk. We found that the more the manager talks, ratings of ineffectiveness keep climbing. So the manager needs to have some restraint and listen, help me understand, tell me more.
00:14:10
Speaker
In the book, I also lay out this facilitation process and key questions managers can ask to truly understand. You have this flowing conversation. If the employee wants to dwell on one particular topic, that's okay because that's what's on their minds. You can remind them that, hey, we only have five minutes left, so if you want to talk about something else, let's do it. If not, I'm happy to stay with where you want to be. Then obviously, the closing matters.
00:14:39
Speaker
What we found in the research is that good old-fashioned note-taking was received the best. So when a manager is taking notes with their hand and the employee is doing the same, it just helps elevate the conversation and the perception that the parties are truly engaged and will do something with it. And then obviously that doing something with it matters. When the meeting ends, each party has to make sure that they fulfill the commitments that they made.
00:15:07
Speaker
And then over time, these one-on-ones, they start to tell the story of the employee. And then you start to create some connective tissues between these where the manager can say, hey, I know last time you mentioned X, you were having this challenge and you were going to try B. How did it go for you? Right? So you could see this story just starting to get deeper.
00:15:30
Speaker
And another way of saying story is relationship and connection. So you're building this connection, this relationship, this story, and all of those things drive the success.
00:15:45
Speaker
of one's team, and it helps people become more aligned. You know, we go through our work day sometimes doing things that we think are needed, but these one-on-ones are an opportunity to make sure that they truly are needed.
00:16:01
Speaker
Lovely. That was a very good summary, but your book does provide lots of things. And what I love about it is it's not prescriptive in the sense of this is exactly what should be on a gender. There's just lots of different ways of doing this well.
00:16:18
Speaker
There is. And you know, it's so interesting because I tried to even reflect that in the title. So first of all, the title is Glad We Met, right? So that conveys optimism. Because people do thrive more
00:16:34
Speaker
in positive interactions with others. We are social creatures. That's what being a human is about. And so we want to have interactions where people are glad they happen. So I take a positive spin on this. How can we make this valuable? Then if you look at the second part, it's the art and science. Because what we find is within the world of one-on-ones, there is an art. You know who you are. You know your values and your style. Employees also have different
00:17:02
Speaker
values and style. So by providing choices and not a prescription, you're able to make the right fit. And that's really what's key because I don't want these to be awkward. Yeah, I just want people to do them. And even if they are awkward in the beginning, they're not going to stay that way.
00:17:25
Speaker
I'm just pulling you away from this episode because I want to share with you how you can get a copy of the free guide that I've created in which I share with you several of the techniques that I use with my coaching clients today and that you can use too, which will help you create more of an impact as a leader, have more influence and the holy grail, have more time away from the doing.
00:17:54
Speaker
You can use this time for key things like focusing on strategic thinking or going for a bike ride. If you want to grab the free guide, check out the show notes and click on the link. One of the things I do with them, leaders I work with who invariably haven't done a one-to-one in a way that would look
00:18:23
Speaker
familiar to what you look at. But they want to have them. This is the thing I think. And then when I think they experience it, I help them map it out. So I'm doing a little bit more.
Role of Communication and HR in One-on-Ones
00:18:36
Speaker
helping them map out what success would like for that person in role. So I'm having a bit more of an extensive conversation, which isn't necessary to kick this stuff off, but I think for when I'm doing it, I'm mapping it out. But always in it, it's I have like the relationship between you two is one of the bits on the map. So we start talking about that and we start looking at one-to-ones. And then they really engage with the idea and want to do it. And one of the things I noticed as well is
00:19:03
Speaker
Feedback being a two-way thing. I noticed in the book, you said, you know, every now and again, the emphasis will shift and I'm interested in that because that's not always an easy thing to do for a team member to actually give the feedback. Hard power dynamic thing there. So what are your thoughts on that one?
00:19:26
Speaker
In general, when a manager has created a climate in their team where people are comfortable sharing feedback with that manager, that is a heck of an accomplishment. If they've created that type of safety, they should truly be proud of themselves. So the goal is we want two-way communication.
00:19:51
Speaker
You can't have an effective team without two-way communication. And so these one-on-ones provide a foundation of trust. And when you have trust, employers will be much more willing to share.
00:20:06
Speaker
maybe feedback, comments, concerns that could truly benefit the manager themselves. And so initially, when you start rolling these out or doing a reboot around them, you can't expect employees to provide difficult feedback to you. And again, that's not the overall goal of these things.
00:20:28
Speaker
But by doing these properly, by creating safety, by falling through with commitments, then you're just creating this culture of compassion, a culture of collaboration, a culture of authenticity, and all these things allow a team to thrive.
00:20:48
Speaker
When we think about a team, imagine a football team. You can't imagine everyone to get completely on the same page if everything is just coming down from the coach. We need some communication. We need players to trust each other. When mistakes happen, we need to talk about them in a safe way. Next thing you know, when people get on that pitch, they're able to function
00:21:14
Speaker
and a way that they couldn't before. And so all these one-on-ones, it's one-on-ones are related to everything. And even as we're asking people to come back to work, right, so leaving their home, and that's a reasonable ask.
00:21:30
Speaker
But as people return these types of interactions, this is what they missed. This is what they're craving. We didn't miss going into work and just having a regular meeting. We can do that via Zoom. Really, the thing that we missed due to the pandemic was connection. Absolutely. That really did show up, didn't it? It's like a big experiment for us to see that so clearly.
00:21:57
Speaker
I thought one of the things I was noticing obviously your forward is with Marshall Goldsmith and his feed forward.
00:22:07
Speaker
I'm a stakeholder-centered coach, so I feel very familiar with the concept of feedforward. So feedback can feel a bit harsh if it's new to you and you want to say something. And asking for those feedforward suggestions as a way of starting that conversation is just such a lovely way of getting it moving. I've seen that work so nicely. It feels so safe. Yeah, I am a huge fan of feedforward. And just for your listeners, this is really the idea that
00:22:37
Speaker
Instead of asking for feedback, you reflect and you tell your manager or your manager tells you, either one, that you say, I would like to get better at, say, managing stress, or I would like to get better at dealing with difficult people.
00:22:59
Speaker
What ideas do you have? What are three ideas that I could do better or that one could do better? And the goal is just to have people look forward, right? So you're not asking them to say, hey, how did I do on this past gig with this difficult customer? You're saying, this is just something I'd like to get better at and I'd love to capture some of your advice. And the neat thing is with feedforward is you can get advice
00:23:25
Speaker
from basically everyone. Feedback requires people aware of the situation. Feed forward just requires people who are aware of the behavior that you want to get better at. And so it's a very exciting technique.
00:23:40
Speaker
And I do think it's something that the direct can do in these one-on-ones, right? Where the direct could say, hey, before we finish today, you know, one thing as I reflect on what I do well or where I'd like to do better is X. And I would just love some of your thoughts on that. That reflects pretty well on you that you're able to do this internal scan and constantly want to grow and be the best you can be. And the manager doing it is so lovely as well, isn't it? Lovely kind of...
00:24:07
Speaker
thing to do in an invitation. So you set a reboot then. I'm thinking of organizations that have got many managers and they know the benefits of one-to-ones, they can see it, and they want that to happen. They want a culture of it. Where should HR start? I know it doesn't have to start with HR, but I'm just imagining an HR person looking and going,
00:24:35
Speaker
This is really good. I've seen this podcast. It's awesome. Where do I start? Well, I think once people really understand the power of these things and how it can make you time,
00:24:49
Speaker
Right, because if you don't think about it that way, the thought of having another meeting fills you with more dread. But this is an activity that will save you time. And you are making time. And the best silliest example is think about how much time it takes you to replace good talent. Very, very time intensive. So hopefully this will avoid that.
00:25:16
Speaker
The best way to start this or to reboot is to link it to values, to link it to your values as a manager and to an organization's values. And that was something I did in the book where I looked at organizational value statements and basically the values can connect very readily to one-on-ones. We care about our people, elevating our people, supporting our people. One-on-ones are the mechanism.
00:25:45
Speaker
So tie the reboot to the fact that these are the organization's values, but these are my values. As a manager, my values is to help you be the best that you can be, to help our team thrive. And so these one-on-ones are where I can enact these values. So tie it to something principled and because no one appreciates a flavor of the month type of initiatives. And then in that spirit,
00:26:14
Speaker
You can say, here's the general parameters that will do one-on-ones. But again, this is not for me as your manager. This is for you. So throughout this, we're going to keep tailoring it to make sure it meets each and every one's individual needs. And we can evaluate it and talk about it. But we're committed to this because these types of interactions where we know we have this time together, this is foundational to being a good team.
00:26:40
Speaker
Now from an HR perspective, what HR leaders can start to do is to make sure their house is in order. Look through their onboarding practices. Look through their leadership development practices. Look through their engagement surveys and make sure that one-on-ones are being represented in these various tracks. And if they're not, they work to rectify it.
00:27:07
Speaker
This is an exciting opportunity for HR. So when we think about the world of HR, let's say a core foundational activity like selection. We've gotten pretty good at selection. We know what types of testing works. We know that we need structured interviews.
00:27:24
Speaker
Panel interviews are great. So we have this guidance. So we're already at a pretty high level with selection. So even if we do a little better, it might not be as noticeable. But in the world of one-on-ones, the HR talent opportunity is massive. There's basically nothing there. So if you invest, it's an opportunity to really show the strategic value of HR.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So it can be small, can start small, but interesting that it's systemic. It's part of the wider system that actually it's not just going to be like that. That's the thing, isn't it? People are sort of initiative weary, but if they get one that's good quality, that conversation is good quality, they'll see the benefit of it. They will. So I feel like we've covered a lot here. Good.
00:28:19
Speaker
As we kind of come to a close, is there any question, I mean, you thinking about all the research and everything you've done, is there a question that I haven't asked you, which would be an awesome one to cover?
Resources and Closing Remarks
00:28:33
Speaker
You've asked great questions. No, I think the conversation really covered a lot of important topics. And, you know, obviously, with the 30 minutes, we can only scratch the surface, but I think we gave folks some specifics too. And I just encourage everyone to go visit my website, stevenrogelberg.com, because I have a ton of resources on there. Yeah.
00:28:58
Speaker
And there's just so much on one-on-ones, including skip level one-on-ones. So I think there's some guidance that could be helpful, obviously. Sorry, skip level. Can you just explain that? Yeah. So this is the idea of you meeting with the directs of your directs. Yeah. So lots there. That could be another conversation. Yeah, yeah.
00:29:22
Speaker
But yeah, but check out the book. It's definitely a great resource. And I'm giving all my royalties to charity. Everything goes to cancer research. And, you know, because my hope is just to get the science out there. Oh, that's lovely. I didn't know that. That's really lovely.
00:29:41
Speaker
Lovely addition. Thank you so much. Great that people know where to find you. I think this is a really interesting subject. And I think your book is one that is a absolute guidebook for anyone wanting to start this process and get the value from it. So thank you very much, Stephen. Well, thank you. And thank you for taking an interest in helping get this science out to your audience. Really appreciate it. Have a wonderful rest of your day.
00:30:10
Speaker
My hope is that after listening to that episode, you are a convert and you can see that one-to-ones are one of the most important tasks you can do as a leader and not something that you can just bump out of your diary at the very last moment. You know who you are. A big takeaway for me was that the research shows that leaders think that one-to-ones are really effective
00:30:37
Speaker
and their direct reports are less convinced. It's like how everyone thinks we're an above average driver. Also interesting that senior people value this quality time, sometimes even more than other staff. So what are you waiting for?
00:30:55
Speaker
If you want any other tips or ideas about how to get your one-to-ones working really well, please get in touch. Because as you can hear, I'm a little bit obsessed by this subject. So I welcome any thoughts from you and happy to help. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with anybody you think might benefit. Please rate or review the show as well. That always helps me. And I look forward to hearing your feedback. Till next time.
00:31:30
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Visible Leader podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episode, hit the subscribe button. And I'd love to hear what you think, so please leave me a review. If you have any questions or comments, reach out to me. Kynheim's on LinkedIn.