Transcript
Speaker: The average human life 692,000 hours, and you just chose to spend this one hour with us, and we're glad you did.
Speaker: Yeah, I did that. I've reminded you of your mortality, and that's what we do on this show. We talk about why we do things, not how we do things. This is Woodworking is Bullshit.
Speaker: I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I got my boy in the chair, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and experienced Spanish teacher. ¿Dónde están las bibliotecas, motherfucker?
Speaker: Now, Paul, I got a question for you, buddy. um Please. One 6,942. 692,000 hours. 692. What's the percentage? Give me like quick. You're a PhD. Do the math.
Speaker: Oh, ah well, it' it's like just over one out of half. You know, that's just over half ah half a million, court you know, three quarters of a million. How many fucking hours is it? How many is one out of 692,000 hours?
Speaker: Well, one 500,000th ish. That's not like, what was that PhD for? Oh, you mean like point, it would be 0.005 and of five and yeah, five and some six, six zeros would be a million. You're saying that very confidently. So going to trust you metric prefixes. A million is 10 to the six. Don't you metric me?
Speaker: A billion is 10 to the nine. Who doesn't know that? We're being very rude. Can you introduce our guests? Sorry, Eric. We had to bicker right now. You fucked up the intro completely already.
Speaker: We're only a minute. that We're only two minutes in. It's like, what chaos? God damn it. Okay. I forgot we even had a guest just for that one minute. I'm just sitting here on the side like, okay. Eric's like forcing me to think through my metric prefixes and I'm like, I just wanted you to show your work, you know?
Speaker: We have on the show someone who we wanted to have on for a while. Our first ceramicist we have on the show with us, Jordan Koons of Jordan Koons Ceramic, artist, educator, and alchemist, as it were.
Speaker: Jordan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, guys. I'm happy to be here. Thanks so much for being here. And I'm sorry that you had to see mommy and daddy fight right off the jump. Verdict's still out on who's mommy and who's daddy, but maybe maybe I'll decide by the after show. Let's be real. It was mommy and zaddy, you know?
Speaker: Zaddy?
Speaker: Don't call me a zaddy, you bitch. I be but I still what means. You really give daddy energy, though. Yeah, I'm here for that. Big daddy. I kind of like it. um we Stop it, you guys. I'm trying to be serious. I feel like Jordan and I are going to get along just fine. Just fine.
Speaker: I'm in trouble this episode. I know it. So ah Jordan, you know, I was drawn to Jordan ah magnetically when I heard a reel that she posted on Instagram. And the reason is that Jordan's a fantastic potter. You got a Jordan Kuhn's ceramics. Did I get that right, Jordan?
Speaker: Got it. On Instagram. And i was drawn to it because, of course, Jordan... is drawing tons of inspiration from classical design and architecture from Europe, albeit like ornate cast iron railings or Gothic cathedrals. And I think many of you know, I've been exploring Gothic cathedral art in my own work. And so of course there was that, but then the first reel I saw of Jordan's was a philosophical statement, a manifesto, her own personal manifesto about what her work means to her and why she thinks it's important. So we decided to use, Jordan, your personal ah ethos and philosophical manifesto as a way to explore three different ideas in this episode. And I would like to start with the first in Jordan's own words.
Speaker: I am captivated by the metaphor of the body as a vessel. Each of my pieces represents a unique being with an ornately carved and decorative exterior that mirrors the diverse ways in which we adorn our own bodies. Beyond its exterior beauty, however, each vessel also serves as a window into the inner self.
Speaker: So Jordan, before I muck it up, why don't you tell us what that means to you and why you said those words? Um, man.
Speaker: So when I got into making double walled pieces, which I know we're doing audio, but it's hard to talk about making art and describing it. I mean, it's nice that you'd have your YouTube videos, right? But like, can I like, I'll show some things as well. Hopefully people go to the YouTube video. Yeah. Go to the Patreon, man. Get this, get this live. Or the Patreon. Yeah. you guys have Patreon. Oh, wow. I don't even know what I'm working with here.
Speaker: Do your best to describe it as well, please. Okay. So, yes. So I wheel throw my pieces and I throw two separate vessels that are then adjoined, usually at the top. So this one is, I can't really show, but it's a free floating. The interior vessel is free floating.
Speaker: And really, when I started doing this, we're going to get real, real and real honest for a second. Go ahead. Yeah, ahead. Yes. What about the blaze? No, no, nothing about glaze. Please get real honest for a second. Oh, we're going to get... yeah Oh, you said please. Sorry. um i I got into doing this because of my own ego. of I just wanted to prove that I could do really difficult things and show off how good I was.
Speaker: Which is... I don't think enough people talk about that whole direction of I want to do a thing because I want to show that I'm the best of the best and I want to be able to prove something.
Speaker: And the more i got doing that, I i am a teacher. And I work with humans. And as I would carve the exterior and reveal the interior, i started reflecting on, wow is this is no different than when I'm working with my students or I'm just working with humans.
Speaker: um And maybe you have someone who's a little bit difficult and you have to kind of take some time with them and chip away at the surface and give them space to feel safe, to start to reveal themselves. And the more I started...
Speaker: working with these thoughts as I was carving the work. And then also, I mean, we'll get into this, but like clay and ceramics is like a fucking fickle medium and it hands your ass to you all the time. So the more I was doing these designs that were challenging um and structurally compromising to my work, then I would have these moments where
Speaker: As I'm revealing the interior and thinking about this, I'm also fucking up my pieces and having to start over and thinking about just how these vessels are reflections of human nature.
Speaker: So that's like the start of it. We're going to get way more into it. There's so many more layers to this, but that's kind of like what got my brain going down that road. is that make sense? Absolutely. It makes sense. So just to, for those not in the pottery world, Jordan's talking about a ah like a cup or a mug that has two, um two walls separated by space and she's carving the outer wall,
Speaker: leaving the inner wall intact to hold fluid or you know coffee or whatever. And there's space between. So it's like, you know Jordan, your mugs are beautiful. They have these ornately carved exteriors, like almost like a ah two-tiered pierced thing, which I have seen. I was going to say, like it it it for the woodworkers among us or the woodturners among us, it's like a pierced vessel.
Speaker: But then there also is this interior component so that it's functional cup, functional bowl, whatever it is. And Jordan's relating that as a metaphor to humans that we have, we put out these exteriors, like who we project pretenses, facades, walls, barriers, who we, or that's, that's somewhat negative view. That is, sorry. We could also project our, our exuberance and our excitement and our creativity, right. Whether it's tattoos or the clothes we wear or how we do our hair. Like it doesn't, I don't mean to cast that as, you know, as a negative way, We exude what we exude and we cover what we cover. And it's very strategic for many of us. And then there's the inner person. Or even if we're in certain situations where we know this is not a group of people who I can be my authentic self. So I'm going to mask or I'm going to on a certain facade or whatever. So yeah, there's lots to it. Yeah. And then there's the inner human, right? And I know that this will come to your second point about getting to know the inner human, which is more vulnerability. Let's table that for a moment. But it's really the exterior, what we project versus who we are inside, exterior vessel versus interior vessel. Eric, have you ever, I've never thought of my work in those terms. And it's forcing me to reevaluate. Have you ever thought of your work like that?
Speaker: Well, I mean, i think of my work as a reflection of my experience as a human being often, and it's it's a vehicle to express something that I'm trying to articulate that I think is both unique to me and universal.
Speaker: So in some ways, yes, but it's the... Jordan, I don't use a lot of ornamentation. I'm more form. I'm more like trying to play with like the the whispers and like the the subtle nudges, you know? um And I think yeah like this this thing of ornamentation, like how how we...
Speaker: intentionally expose ourselves to the exterior world that in certain circumstances may be our true selves and in other circumstances is a manufactured self. Like that's, do you have tattoos? Like this is such a, there's so many layers to this. I like, I'm like, Should I like reveal like, yeah, well, so that's, that's the first, like very, very clear parallel is like, you know, you can, you can tattoo things on your body, messages, symbols, things that, that you feel represent who you are as a human being in there. They are an outward, uh, a reflection to the world as to what you think, feel, believe. Um,
Speaker: But at least I know for me, and I'd be curious to hear if this is the same for you, and I know this isn't the same for for a lot of folks, the tattoos that I have, um like there's there's large chunks of time between each of the tattoos, and they all, like I know that I will continue to get more, but not until I find the next thing that feels like the appropriate statement to be made. Sure.
Speaker: Sure. A lot of my tattoos are chapters in my life um or they signify chapters or people or relationships or yeah places that I've been. i do a lot of traveling and a lot of times when I'm in a certain city or country, I'll try hop in and get a tattoo somewhere. um yeah and are they of directly representative of that that time or is it is it something that like on its face value may be one thing but you know when you tell the story it reveals that it has these other layers to it like what's or in in again i'm not saying it has to be that i know a lot of people who are just like i don't know it's a fucking like it's a it's a lady on a sword like i don't know what the fuck it means it just i got it while i was in italy you know Right, right, right.
Speaker: Yeah, no, more or less, more or less. ah It really depends. I was just having this conversation with someone like earlier today about, you know, they don't have any tattoos. And I was like, what's stopping you? And they were saying that it's just like, I don't even know where to begin. Or, you know, I've got all these ideas. I'm like, just start.
Speaker: Just, just, just commit to the bit. Just do the thing, man. Once you get on me, you won't stop. Paul, do you have any tattoos? Zero. Because. He's afraid to commit to the bit. No, it's not. um It's not. Well, maybe I am afraid. i don't know. I was just about to answer. I can't identify anything that I know I wouldn't regret, but maybe that's not the point.
Speaker: I mean. and that's also that's but That's also a voice. Like, I think, may may I guess, Eric, are you also a millennial? I am. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Jordan, I am Gen X.
Speaker: yeah Oh my god!
Speaker: And there's the Instagram clip for this episode. Oh my god, that's awful.
Speaker: That's the Got him, but. Nailed it. Got him. Eric, are you young and Paul, you're old as shit? Yeah, that's what thought. Good. Sorry. Hey, buddy, my knee hurts today. You know, like it's fine. Listen, I got the fellow grays. I'm with you. My students are always confused. Okay, Jordan, what were you going to say about generation? I do think it's an age thing, yeah.
Speaker: Well, I feel like we're, I'll just, we we can bring it back after this, but I feel like Gen Xers, you guys are, you guys are the middle child between millennials and boomers and you Gen Xers, we love you latchkey kids. But one of the things about you, I'm not wrong.
Speaker: You're not wrong. I need more whiskey for this episode. Jesus Christ. So I don't think you guys realized that I was going to like totally drag you through the coals here. No, this is this is fucking perfect. Go on. I'm loving this episode so far. So you are, you Gen Xers are the middle child between mommy and daddy here. You were making the joke about mommy and daddy earlier, but millennials and boomers, we're at each other's throats. And you Gen Xers are like, please stop the fighting. But you're also...
Speaker: A lot of times when it's easier, you'll lean towards those boomer ideologies. so that voice that you just had of, I'm going to regret it. That's not your voice.
Speaker: That's not your voice. um man oh Oh, we got to get Sherry back on the horn to dissect this, man. Jordan, I need to think about that. Like, is that my voice as a scientist, as analytical, like I'm very risk averse. I've been risk averse my whole life. But the thing is, you're not risk averse though. In your work and in your creative endeavors, you're not risk averse. Yes, all the time. And you love ornamentation. and you try things and you get excited about things and you go for it. But there is, wonder there is a And like learning from mistakes.
Speaker: Yeah, and you're not afraid to to fuck something up. Like you'll see it through and you'll be like, ah it was okay. And that's fine. That's not a reflection on me as a woodworker. Interesting. And I wonder if there is...
Speaker: whatever the separation is between like, it doesn't continue to live on my person. Like that that is a thing that I did, but it's not a thing that ref, like I can hide it maybe, I don't know. and Well, here I am, like I've had a divorce, right? So if you put the, like the, your wife's name.
Speaker: Yeah, like maybe not, right? Like, so like, you know, you kind of think like ah the partner is never a good idea. And then it's like, ah the only thing you think is my child. Like that's forever. Like your child's like, you know, part of you and forever. You never, anyway, anyway, no, no, sorry.
Speaker: That was really interesting. And I need to think about, about whether it's my voice or, or what I was learned from my parents' generation about. being yeah ah taking risks and with that tattoo with that i will say it was it was quite bold of me to say i don't know you and i'm not in your body no no no yeah i love it i'm not that's not but but yeah jordan i jordan i can this podcast we love bold being bold yeah okay And honestly, that's something I am looking forward to thinking about after the episode. Like this this whole podcast is premised on the idea of taking on topics and questions that we go away from this discussion thinking, gee whiz, is that me?
Speaker: How does that relate to me? Like, and every time we have a guest on or we stumble on a topic that I walk away thinking about for the rest of the week or the rest of the month, that is my favorite kind of episodes. Eric's nodding. I know Eric. A thousand percent. I love it. love pieces. Yeah.
Speaker: Because the longer you live, i guess maybe the less frequently your world is turned upside down because you think you know it. You think you got it. You know you know yourself. You know what's up. yeah I've seen it before. Right? But I love things getting turned on their head. Maybe I'm a disruptor. So you've kind of disrupted me with that question. I never thought whether my views were my own or or that in particular from my parents. But I want to come back to something you said, which was i did double-walled pottery because I wanted everyone to know I'm hot shit.
Speaker: yeah yeah Because okay I have a big asterisk next to that one. Because have a touch of that too. Okay? We all do. come back We all do. We all do. And that's what I was trying to say is like the the artists and creatives and craftspeople out there who don't admit to that. I kind of just like go like, I don't know if I trust you because...
Speaker: I feel like this is an inherent part. And then going back to that voice, I was just having this conversation with someone recently too about even that voice of being the best. Is that my voice or is that what patriarchal systems of like be like that, everything that we all are competing against one another.
Speaker: And why isn't it just a system of collaboration and community? Is that my voice? I don't know. I'm starting to question that too. it Jordan, there's so many questions you are bringing up. Eric and I have five questions each right now. Go ahead. You go first, Eric. Go, fire, fire, fire.
Speaker: No, go ahead. Go ahead. I had too many. I still am processing them. Jordan, when you flexed and did the double-walled pottery, did it give you the credibility you were seeking?
Speaker: No. because there are other people who are doing it out there as well. Yeah, but were you seen in the community as someone who has the skills to teach classes, to be an educator, who knows what they're talking about? not Not as fast as I wanted it to happen. I've been doing this for a decade now. um I started my grad program, which i went to I went to MICA, Maryland Institute College of Art, for my graduate program, which was in art education.
Speaker: And I graduated 2017, and i started really diving into this and splash out into the scene and started doing markets and whatever and was starting to build my Instagram and it's just like no one is noticing me and I was pissed.
Speaker: I was just like, I know that I'm good. Why isn't anyone seeing me? It was very frustrating. And only only in the last year do I feel like, you know, I had a goal of getting to like 10,000 followers on Instagram. And I'm finally there. Like, I think in the next month or two, I'll crest 15. And now I'm kind of at a place where, and here I'm laughing, talking to the both of you who have absurd numbers.
Speaker: And then it's also, well what are numbers? What did what even is an arbitrary thing? What is that? And again, whose voice is that? Well, can we, i that's an interesting question and I want to keep thinking on that, but can we also reframe that a little bit? Sure, please, reframe that. The numbers don't necessarily matter.
Speaker: But the bigger the number, the more opportunity for people to find you and support your work, which is ultimately the goal, right? So on the one hand, there's the there's the ego. There's like the, well, I'm gonna do it because I'm fucking better than them and I'm gonna prove everybody wrong, right? Like there's still, Paul, we've talked about this, the fuck you, Gene, is real. Okay. Yeah. I stand by it. The fuck you, Gene is real. And if I'm being completely honest, I think part of the reason why I'm drawn to do, uh, quieter form based things is because a thing, I think it was my sixth grade or seventh grade band teacher said to me, um, that like, wait, wait, wait, what instrument I started, I've played a bunch of different things, but I, uh, at that moment, I think I was playing French horn. Um,
Speaker: And we were going into a competition and I was like, you know, as like a seventh grader trying to be like, why don't we play like the fucking fastest thing that's ever been written? And he was like, anybody can play a fast thing. But if you go in and you play Mary had a little lamb and you play it technically perfect, nobody can deny that you are better at what you do than playing the fastest thing sloppily.
Speaker: Okay. And yeah, sure, sure. And I think my aim in making quieter objects is like, Fuck you. I dare you to make a mitered cube better than me.
Speaker: so in our what Are you saying your work is similar to Marriott of Little Lamb? Sure, on a level. It's simple. It's simple. it's Bold choice. Bold choice, Eric. okay It is. okay anyway Anyway. I'm just, I don't even remember what my original fucking question was. Well, Eric, i went on a rabbit trail. That's fine. You're down the rabbit hole and I'm going to pull you out. Thank you buddy. Because that's what Eric, have you, did you, so I will say as a quick aside and I'll ask you my question. I definitely had that moment, Jordan, where I wanted to prove myself, not just to the community, but to myself as well, that I'm good enough to do this. And that was my William and Mary high chest piece. And I was like, I'm going to make a piece of fine furniture that is like museum quality. And that'll prove to me that I'm there. And that'll prove to everyone else. It will shut everyone up.
Speaker: Like, you like, because, If you, but let's let's take an extreme case. If you made like a striped cutting board, which is all of us do, it's just a rite of passage and they're useful and we love them. Like I have many, many, right?
Speaker: that that's the entry point, but it it feels like your voice isn't going to be heard because you don't exude the experience to actually be taken more seriously about whatever X, Y, Z, you name it. yeah But if you can craft a piece of heirloom quality furniture, that is, you know, similar to what you might see at a museum, that changes the conversation. It changes how people see you wrong or right.
Speaker: I'm not saying that's right, but it does. And I think it it was about confidence building with myself. Could I do it? And I did that exact thing you did. I tried to prove to myself and probably to the outside world that I was good enough. Eric, do you have did you have that same moment?
Speaker: Sure. I mean, that's that's one of the, I think the first piece that I designed when I was in school was the ah the blanket chest um that Paul, you've seen. It's beautiful. It's a dovetailed oak chest. No, no, no, no. Don't talk it down. It's gorgeous, Eric. Well, well.
Speaker: I largely ripped it off from designer in so did i i her the century named Sidney Barnsley. So,
Speaker: I made that to prove to myself that I was as technically proficient as everybody else in the class because I came in from behind the eight ball, you know? And it is in and it's it's a fuck you moment. It's like, well, I can do it too. So go fuck yourself.
Speaker: Is that part of the artist's or the craftsperson's rite of passage, proving to themselves the project where you prove to yourself and maybe to the community that you're I can do this at a high level?
Speaker: i think it has to be i don't know jordan do you disagree like i i well i think ah the a couple things have come to mind as i'm listening to you and like thinking about my own thing of yes i've had these targets and they become moving targets right of these destinations of once i achieve x then i've made it and having that mentality Goes against being a creative.
Speaker: Individual. Because to live a creative life. Is to. Is to decide. That it's not about the destination. And it's simply about the journey. All along.
Speaker: So there's that. But then also how we're talking about these. Like. but You know I got to prove this to this person. Again. i think that the crafts world.
Speaker: Has been. designed to compete against one another because if we are focusing on competing against one another then we're not then we're not changing our energy to be in communion with one another and building community with one another because what can happen when we're actually working together rather than competing
Speaker: can i Can I ask a tendentially related question? Always. Of course, Eric. That's your job. how do you i am My job on this podcast is Agent of Chaos. um How do you feel about copying?
Speaker: um i um i jets i just have... Okay, so in world, I have an online course that has been put out It was put out a couple of years ago and I've had people who they'll take the class and then I get a kickback now of, you know, the royalties, yada, yada.
Speaker: And so I had a woman reach out to me. You were probably talking about me copying other people. I'm going to talk about other people copying me right now. Either way, either way. But yeah, so this woman reached out to me, like took your class. Love it. I'm learning all these things. I have some questions. it's Like, great. So I like answered.
Speaker: Sure. Let's do this. And then and she ended up copying exactly my work. It doesn't look as good as mine, but I didn't need to say that, but I'm now with you. Bitch! Let's call a spade a spade. This is safe space.
Speaker: It's a private conversation. This isn't going on internet. is a private conversation with everyone. um And so she then had the balls to be like, hey, what do you think about this price? Oh, fuck off. Are you serious? ah Yeah. Wow. And I wow thought about it and I came back to her and I was like, hey, you know, the whole point here in learning...
Speaker: a technique is you learn it to then get that technique into your body and into your system and then it's your job to develop a voice so that it doesn't look like you're doing my shit and you're doing my shit and selling it for a fraction of the price and that is problematic that's bad for your business Right.
Speaker: Right. Right. So, and that is something that I now am really thoughtful about because I i still continue to, i I go and I teach what I do to people and that is a part of the conversation um because I want people to learn my techniques and I am not interested in gatekeeping. That is not a part of my values, but also inviting into conversation I mean, I fucking do the same shit. Like I, sure I get really into like beading. I do like little like beaded earrings and things and I'll look online and find different designs that other people do. And I just don't have the money to like buy it from those people. So I'll, I'll make it for myself.
Speaker: And then I don't I don't make a big stink about it. I don't like post about it. I just wear it for myself. And so I think copying copying has it's such great area. And I think it we all copy and it should be allowed and it should be OK.
Speaker: But then turning it into profit, that's when it becomes problematic. And so then that also becomes a conversation of whether or not these individuals were deciding to learn a skill from someone and and copy.
Speaker: And then do they have that moral code and that moral compass to do it for their own stake or their own interest or their own growth. And in fairness, I feel like there's another axis there, which is some people, and I'm not making an excuse for this person. I've seen other people You're talking about yourself, Eric. We know. Oh my God, Jordan, I love you. Thank you. Thank you for not telling everybody that was a conversation that we had privately. But no, there, there are people who are so new to like their creative endeavors, to their creative journey. that they don't understand that copying somebody else's work and trying to sell it is bad juju. Like it's problematic. And to them, they're just like coming back to the prove it, like go fuck yourself. I'm proving myself that I can do this thing. To them, and I think we all fell into this category at some point in our careers, the prove it moment is whether somebody will give you money for your work.
Speaker: So if you then find the thing that people will give you money for, you go like, what? I should just keep doing this. And the thought doesn't even occur to you that, well, I'm just ripping this off of somebody else. Right.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. Because the dopamine takes over. It's like, oh, I get that. Well, the audacity there is to then DM the person that you stole the work from and be like, hey, should I increase my price point?
Speaker: that's not too It's sad too because when I came back, I heard she had this whole like thing to say about how she had like a traumatic brain injury or something. I was like, yeah, but like there's still basic human decency. I don't know if like you're accident. Jordan, the thought I always have with copying is if someone copies me,
Speaker: I'm like, okay, no problem. You copied that piece, no problem. But you are not capable of thinking of my next piece because that's unique to me. right So like Jordan, whatever mug they may or may not have copied,
Speaker: or no, sorry, may have copied, um they will not be able to copy your next mug because they are not in your brain. So you're always be a step ahead. I'm not saying that that erases the issue entirely, but it gave me some it gave me some security in that they can only copy what's already existing and not what the next piece that you will dream up because that...
Speaker: that That capital resides in your brain and your brain only from your life experience. Anyway, that that that's that's a thought I consistently have. Well, um I actually had it similar but different experience literally earlier today. um there was I stumbled upon a reel.
Speaker: that got fed into my algo and this dude was was finishing a table i don't remember the handle genuinely but i i was listening to him talk about the the components of that and i was like oh that's my finish now i didn't invent this finish right like this is a ripoff of the maloof finish like i've doctored it some but but so i can't take credit for it but as he went on he was articulating the things he likes about the finish, which was basically verbatim the way I've been talking about it on the internet for the last like five years. I was like, that's real weird. And then like I clicked on his profile and he's got a not insignificant number of followers and he follows me.
Speaker: And I was like, huh. Now again, again, this is the interesting tension. I can't take credit for inventing the finish nor have I ever. Um, But the the way that he expressed the things that he likes about the finish were exactly the wording that I used. And I was like, motherfucker, what do you do? But I don't own the intellectual property of the things I like about this finish either. so yeah and then i'll buy you So what is there to do about it?
Speaker: Right. I'll bring it back to like Paul and i are into ornamentational work. And right now I'm getting into like I had lived or not lived, but the summer I traveled in Europe and saw all these balconies and I'm doing, i just named it the balcony project and it's kind of like taken off and people are really interested in. And I think it's just catchy sounding, but really I'm just looking at the, this iron filigree and Paul, you're looking at,
Speaker: Gothic stoneware and rosettes and stained glass and whatnot. And in a sense, we're we're looking at this architecture and then putting it into application in a different medium. For you, it's wood. For me, it's clay.
Speaker: And i don't know how how you feel about that. i'm curious how you're experiencing that. Because in a way, we're to be genuinely honest, in a way, we are copying masters from before us and for me like when I'm taking these designs I am then transposing them and putting my own spin on them um but it does it becomes gray matter of you know are we copying we are 100% copying yeah but that's okay because it's not it's it's copy it's copying an iteration copy iteration copy iteration right um
Speaker: shapes theres There's a certain number of shapes the human beings like there's yeah like. We're just wired for certain geometries and shapes and we like them. Gothic is one of them.
Speaker: They came up with that geometry. Yeah. Yeah. Sacred sure. But I mean, honestly, what what that means to me as a biologist is like humans just like them for whatever reason they look, they're, they're appealing to our nervous system for whatever reason to almost everyone. If you show a Gothic window to almost anyone, I'm guessing 90 something percent of people like it without even knowing what it is. They'd say, wow, that's pretty.
Speaker: um so So that negates in some ways the cultural you know inheritance of wilds. When I say sacred geometry, I'm not talking about like. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. like Yeah, yeah, I'm talking about the yeah the biological. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you and I are borrowing from that lexicon of sacred geometry then and and moving it into new mediums where it's not typically, it has been done before. Look, plenty of people have moved gothic ideas and geometries into woodworking. I'm sure someone has moved it into pottery before you. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, but we're just exploring it in our own, in our own way. And like, sure it's copying, but it's copying with transposition.
Speaker: We're moving it. We're, we're just trying things. We're experimenting and we don't claim that it's ours uniquely. But you're also, you're articulating the attempt at doing something original, even if it comes up a copy of something else or or an amalgamation of things that you've had inputs of, you are attempting to do something unique, which like, so if this person, Jordan, who who took your class, if three, five, seven years from now, they make an object and it's exactly the same thing and you DM them and you're like,
Speaker: hey, that's my fucking cup. And they were like, holy shit. I'm so sorry. I had no idea. Like, you know, like I just, I just did what I know. That feels, and correct me if you feel differently, but like that feels fundamentally different from like, hey, I made this thing that you designed. How much should I sell it for?
Speaker: You know, like there's two different things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah for sure. All right. That was like, we are 40 minutes in. It was act one, baby.
Speaker: Oh my God. We only got to one point. We're going to make this. This is a tough one. Oh my God. Okay. I want to move to Jordan's second point. Oh my God.
Speaker: You guys hold on to your seats. Woof. Negative space offers glimpses of the inner vessel, a concept that speaks to our interactions with one another and the ability to truly see and know others beyond surface level appearances.
Speaker: While the exterior of my work is visually striking, the functional interior is where its true value lies. Eric, a please.
Speaker: Well, I don't know if I have a question just yet. This is, I'm usually a person who asks somebody to repeat a thing, but- All right, I'll do it. I'll repeat it. Let's go. No, no, no. The audience can hit rewind. They can listen to it again. Okay, fine. um The i had thing that I was um thinking about was you are talking about the internal reveal, right? Like what is what's important on the inside versus what it looks like on the outside, which is- Negative space. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Negative space is a window to see inside, right?
Speaker: But also, also the beautiful thing about the the ceramic vessel is that it can, it can physically hold contents much like a piece of furniture. Sure. Right? Like it's not just an idea of negative space. Um,
Speaker: And that's a thing that I employ in my work all the time, but we come at it from two very different perspectives, right? Again, coming back to like the, I i try to work in the quiet. I try to try to minimize oftentimes, um, the first impact of my work. And then hopefully I do just enough to draw you in, to engage with it. And then there's more revelations along the way versus it sounds like you are,
Speaker: um using more ornamentation to draw people in to realize that, oh, this this isn't a thing that's going to leak all over my countertop, right? Like it can it can hold shit. yeah So I guess I'm wondering how, is it is it just the ego that made you go like, hmm, I can do cool shit? or Or was there another reason that like ornamentation on the exterior and you still wanted the thing to be
Speaker: usable and functional because you could have just done pierced ceramics. Correct, yeah. and i And I do laugh. I do laugh when I'm doing markets or pop-ups or things and people come into my booth and they're looking at my work. And I will have like luminaries that are just like a pierced vessel.
Speaker: Luminaries. You're just going to casually drop that vocab word? Yeah, Eric, you're outclassed and outweighed. Wow. Eric, well, in the ceramics world, this is like so not like, this is like whatever.
Speaker: So, um ah you know, or for a while I was making tens of fruit bowls that were just like these large open vessels. And then I would do all this art ornate carving and piercing. And i would just laugh because I'd get these people who'd come into my booth and be like, but what does it hold?
Speaker: good Oh, oh, you're not my people. Like, I'd just be like, oh, this is a litmus test. Like, we don't we don't. you needed to be You needed to be functional and sometimes it's not always about functionality, but to I don't I don't know how you guys feel and maybe this is going like way too off tangent but you know I went to art school and pottery and ceramics and I identify as a ceramicist and not a potter which there is a difference from your go go on yeah I'm sorry articulate the difference someone just laid down the gauntlet yeah
Speaker: I know. I'm like, this is fun talking to woodworkers. but But being in art school and having my art be seen as a craft. And I even and if you go to my website, you see I like right in the about me. It's Jordan bridges the gap between craftsperson and artist because and in so much of my life is this whole duality which then translate translates into creating vessels that are both sculptural and functional um I'm constantly trying to have both feet in both worlds or on either side of the state border if you will because I can't be put into a box um but also it's
Speaker: which is fun to me and it creates mystery, whatever. There's so much to that. I feel like I'm ran off on the 17 different angels. Where do want me to go? know front me back where paul um you is eric and Eric are like five states away from the original point. Fuck the original point. I want to you know how you feel about the tension that you feel in this this world of like, I want to be known as an artist, but in order for my work to sell, it has to have some functionality because I live in that same fucking world.
Speaker: It's so real. It's so real. And like, that's why, you know, I, I apply for shows and I get into group exhibitions with pieces that are more like amphora shapes. so like I have a piece behind me that's like, it's a picture I, we haven't even talked about this, but I will even go into this whole metaphor that I do where the interior vessel, i will sculpt it to look like a feminine,
Speaker: form and that's just like fucking with the whole metaphor even more so of like vessels our bodies and when we reveal the exterior you see the form inside i feel like i'm like fondling the ah who who doesn't you know come on Call a spade spade. is where the audio people, you've got to go to this. You're really missing out here. You're really missing out. Oh, no. Okay, you're making these art objects, but...
Speaker: art objects but the The thing that I want to get at, the thing I want to know is so yeah yeah it it sounds like your experience is similar to mine, which is you have these things that you want to express. You have these beautiful objects you want to put into the world. And then I also got to make stuff to put bread on the table. Well, right. And we know that in order to make a living, we have to make objects that people can use because there is like seven people who can make bullshit items that have no function and they sell for enough money to put food on their table. So a how do you bridge that gap? And B, does it, do you feel as a person who went to art school and I went to, to, I have a bachelor's degree in nonsense and then went to craft school to learn how to make objects in like work in a cabinet shop. Um,
Speaker: So like I come from the craft world knowing that who I am inside is an artist. You come from the art world knowing that you have to craft usable objects in order to pay the bills. so Right.
Speaker: Tell me how you feel. I mean, i kind of... Did you guys ever watch Nell in the 90s? Like Jodie Foster Nell? No. Oh, fuck. This is going to mean nothing. Forget it. she It does it. Forget it. Forget it. Forget it. Okay.
Speaker: So i I kind of just go where the wind blows. I just like... And that's a horrible business model. So don't ask me about how much, like, am I a good business person? Absolutely not. And that's why I have a full-time salary of being a teacher to help me get by because i haven't been able to to figure out a model that works because the minute I get going into production mode of I'm making all the work so that I can sell it, I get bored.
Speaker: And then I don't want to keep doing that. So I get on my phone and I start scrolling and then time goes by and I'm not... I'm not interested or invested in what I'm working So then i'll I'll see a call for entry for art exhibition. I'm like, I want to get into that. And I want to be, I want to have my work shown with these people.
Speaker: So I'm going to make some pieces for that, but that doesn't make money. So I'll go down that route for a little bit. And then I'll like, so I'm just bobbing and weaving. I'm bobbing and weaving the whole time.
Speaker: but But you have the ability to pay your bills because of the consistent paycheck of teaching. Right. So that's that's a thing that I feel like we don't talk about so much in the art world or the craft world. Like how how does a creative person pay their bills? And either you have to buckle the fuck down and just like make a thing that people will buy Or you have to find another way to pay the bills so that you can make the things that are interesting and edifying to you. Or you can be poor or you can be independently wealthy. Those are your four options. you know Yeah.
Speaker: there's There's other options in there too. But yeah, like those are the main tenants, I'd say. Yeah, for sure. All right, Paul, we can come back to your original question. Oh my God, y'all. I'm sorry, Paul. We are five continents away from the original question. It's okay. Tell the- Wait, ask the original question again, because I- Yeah. It's all good. And it's actually fun to watch where your brains go, because it's amazing to me. Because it's all relevant. It's all important, relevant things. Jordan, your original point was you carve out the exterior surface as a means of creating negative space to see what's inside. And that really speaks as a metaphor to vulnerability and openness. That was the original point. Oh my God, you guys. So the carve through sections let you glimpse the inner vessel to see what really lies inside, whether it's functional or not. And that led me to think deeply about vulnerability.
Speaker: That is a big topic. You know, I think a lot of us struggle ah with vulnerability. ah Eric, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you and I are pretty good for men. You know, based on our conversations and our relationships with each other and that I've seen, you and I are pretty good. But in a general sense, vulnerability is something all of us struggle with.
Speaker: And that led me to look at ah research on vulnerability. So Jordan, your point about being able to see through to what you really are inside that brought up all sorts of questions like, well, how, how do we define vulnerability? Mary, where's Mary? Eric, where's Mary? When we need her to define something. So There's a a researcher at the University Houston named Brene Brown who defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.
Speaker: arguing that that showing vulnerability to other humans is the core of all meaningful connection really between us. And I can't say she's wrong.
Speaker: ah She has studied vulnerability for decades, has an amazing TED talk. If you want to look it up, Brene with a B, B-R-E-N-E Brown. Look up her TED talk on vulnerability. It'll change how you see things.
Speaker: um And Brene suggests that vulnerability, ah to Jordan, to to your credit, like the the idea that your work harkens to this concept is and inspirational, but that being vulnerable is not weakness.
Speaker: you know No, not at all. yeah Right? Everyone's like, oh, well I don't want you know, never let them see you sweat, you know, never, right? Well, and I'm going can I take, can I take up Can I pick up?
Speaker: going to run with the rugby ball now. So I, I never do sports ball references. I just need you to know that. Of all the balls you could have picked up. I don't know what happened. I don't know. You guys thought something out in me. I don't know what happened. All right. That's cool. Okay.
Speaker: but um but So I was talking about litmus tests and just how it being a maker and also being in craft booths or selling your work and interfacing with people and just the the vulnerability of putting your work out there and then seeing in real time as people come into your space and then pick up your work and look at it or like turn it over or whatever.
Speaker: And so one story I want to tell is a thing that often happens is people pick up my work and they go, wow, that's really delicate.
Speaker: And they give me like the, I would i feel like I would break it. And then I kind of depending on where they're at, I'll go like, you know, this is actually, this is a metaphor. This vessel that you're holding as um is a metaphor for like a little person. Like, we look at cook this. This is this little vessel is like, you know, i our little meat suits, if you will, are vessels for the meat suits.
Speaker: Heck yeah. yeah I love that. I didn't coin that. I got that from someone else. Her name is Jessica Laniado. She's an amazing astrologer. And she uses the term meat suits and I love that shit. but So our bodies are these weird little meat suits that are sticky and stinky and gross sometimes but also beautiful and we decorate them and just like my vessels are decorated but it it's not about what the meat soup is presented like it's about what's inside and it takes so much time
Speaker: vulnerability, it takes so much care, it takes so much presence, it takes so much willingness to sit in discomfort, to be with another meat suit and let them reveal what's actually inhabiting that vessel to then be able to meet them where they're at and to see them as oh a wonderful creation that you're getting to just be in the presence of and how beautiful is that like how wonderful that we get to have these kind of conversations with one another or how wonderful that we get to just live this life and meet people who
Speaker: act as mirrors to us or ask questions that make us think and ponder and question the meaning of life. um But going back to that comment that people will make, ah, looks so delicate.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. These weird crunchy meat suits are delicate and they're also really rugged and they can rough and tumble, but they can also break. And it depends on how we're treating those individual beings and are we handling them with care? And that's the whole crux of me making this work is I'm trying to remind people that as you're holding my work and you're noticing, wow, that seems really delicate. I mean, I know that it's stoneware and it should theoretically be able to handle a little bit of rough and tumble, right? Like I've dropped my work and and it survives and then I drop my work and it ship breaks all the time.
Speaker: and But when When we are careful with one another and treating one another with dignity and respect and allowing people to meet us where they're at or just open up and bloom, then we can really get to see the the wonderful creature that's inside.
Speaker: God damn, I could i could listen to wax poetic for another 15 fucking minutes. Like for a minute, I forgot this was a podcast. Oh, that's good. But you know, Jordan, um you know who the most vulnerable vulnerable man I know is?
Speaker: William Teresa Burkle of WTV Woodworking. Oh, Eric. What a terrible time to bring that We're doing the pivot now? is Listen, i told I warned you beforehand, it's going to be the most jarring pivot that I could possibly come up with. Jarring as possible. Listen, I'm going to tell you one thing.
Speaker: Bill is well known that if you walk into the store and ask for a caress, he is legally obliged to give it to you. So... I just, i want to let you know, that's a thing that he has not denied to me, to my face. So ah ah there's, there's so many things about WTV. Do you know, do you know, have you heard the good word? Are you introduced into the church of WTV woodworking? I am. I'm a freak out of the word. Call me out of the word. Paul's goddamn bishop. No, because, because mom and pop places are fading out of existence, Eric.
Speaker: How many mom and pop places do you No, but I'm just like, Jesus Christ. Like, oh, wow. That was religious. of many How many mom and pop places exist anymore? And if we're going to support one, I'm all about it.
Speaker: I'm here for it. So WTB Woodworking is located at 390 Pike Road in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. It's like 40 ish minutes north of philly for those of you folk who uh live near my neck of the woods and uh bill's just a hell of a guy you know listen we've been working with bill for years two two years now straight yeah i've been to a couple open houses there's another open house happening in october you should go to wdb wtbwoodworking.com to find out more about that um But I don't want to talk about the business. I want to talk about Bill. What do you think about Bill? How do we feel about Bill as a human being?
Speaker: I haven't met Bill face to face. You're going to start with how I feel about. no, no. no Jordan, tell us how you feel about Bill. ah Oh, Bill. Bill is my guy. bill um He's my guy. Billiam Teresa. He's going to get the job done. yeah he's Yeah. If there's one fucking thing I know about Bill is he's going to get the goddamn job done. Oh, right. one thousand That's number one. You can sense that right off the jump. Oh, I do. well Tell me your top three favorite things about Bill. be but Wow. wow Where to start? Well, he's.
Speaker: Go ahead. You can say his smell. It's fine. um smell His smell. His smell. His aroma. yep I haven't gotten experience his smell, but yeah he's thorough. He has charming good looks. and he did Both of those things can confirm.
Speaker: He can carry on a conversation. Oh, with anybody. For 30 to 40 minutes without you even realizing it. yeah I'm sure he'll love that when every every customer walks in and expects a 40-minute conversation.
Speaker: And there you go. So you should visit WCB Woodworking at 390 Huntington Valley Pike Road. I think I nailed that. And thanks to Bill, as always, for sponsoring this this week's episode.
Speaker: Not prepared for that. oh What else you got, buddy? It's going to go... yeah It's going to go to the point where I can't do ad reads anymore.
Speaker: I think we proved that last episode, bud. I know. I can't... like It's bad. Hey, you got so many good qualities. um Yes anding me in the ad read is not chief among them. No, no I'm bad. oh Glad...
Speaker: I'm glad that you were here to to help me out, Jordan. Thank you. Anytime, anytime here to yes. And in the spirit of vulnerability, Eric, I am not good at ad rates. Okay. I'm going to be totally fair. So back to that point, uh,
Speaker: I want to just give ah a short synopsis of what we talked about with vulnerability and I have a quiz for the two of you. Actually, the three of us, we can all do it. Okay. but So the idea is that, and I hope everyone listening thinks about, are you vulnerable?
Speaker: or Do you deflect, for example? ah Vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And it's, you know, Brene argues it's not a weakness. It's an emotional, ah it's not a weakness at all. In fact, it's a strength to connecting to others. Yeah, absolutely. Go.
Speaker: So in my practice with vulnerability, what I've learned from Brene, I'm so glad that you brought up Brene because um ah her work has been influential in just my my artwork, but also how I am as an educator. And I was just, I was working at a camp with Summer and I was getting in front of all of these teenagers and talking.
Speaker: And I had this moment where I'm, I started i'm getting really like acutely aware that I was being perceived by all these teenagers who didn't know me yet.
Speaker: You ever have that happen where you're just like, my everyone's looking at me. I'm making this face. I'm making this motion right now where I have all my fingers pointed at my face and they're supposed to be the eyes all staring at my face.
Speaker: And so I'm trying to teach these kids that they need to be taking care of their their dishes in a certain way but the dishwasher head break and so in real time i'm talking to this whole group of kids and i'm like okay so the people in the kitchen are i so i was about to say slaving away right because that's a colloquialism and i caught myself in real time and i went i shouldn't say that So instead, i started to pivot in real time. And then I started to say, they're killing themselves.
Speaker: Also, it's not good to be saying in in a group of, you know, 50 people. And so I start fumbling even more. And I go, oh, my God. I am just.
Speaker: And so this is in a moment of vulnerability. One thing that Brene talks about is naming that vulnerable thing. And I just went like, My brain is not functioning.
Speaker: And I'm saying all the roaring things. And this is a total moment where the kids could have pointed and laughed or could have said like, ah, you suck or whatever. And instead the kids were like, it's okay, Jordan, you got this. And they all started clapping at you for me.
Speaker: Which was like... ah can we Can we come all the way back to generational differences? Yeah, right. Well, they're Gen Alpha, Gen Z, and that's a whole other... I know they get a bad rap, but they're the builders. They're all right. To your point, think there's a real...
Speaker: to your point i think there is there's a real power there's a real humanness there's a real like there's a there's a there's a humanizing comedy in naming the vulnerability you're like oh just fucked that pooch like how are we gonna move forward for sure group now like i'm the if you make yourself the idiot everybody has had that experience it's so real it's so human it can be a unifying thing that we can okay now we can all move on together
Speaker: 100% error. It's not a weakness. Brene argues it's not a weakness. It's the birthplace of human-to-human connection. And it's the core of like emotional um linkage between you. Well, I guess I said the same thing twice. Connection. It really... yeah disarms the ability to feel like I understand you. And there's all these myths associated with vulnerability, like it's weakness, vulnerabilities, weakness. That is something like, Eric, that's totally in the manosphere. I don't know. It's definitely generational. I will also do same thing I said before. Whose voice is that?
Speaker: Yeah, that's good. There's another myth that I can opt out of it. I can never let them see a sweat. I can opt out of it. But when you dull your vulnerability, um you know you put all these facades and armor up, you will also dull the experience of...
Speaker: that is positive as well. You may, you may fend off some fear and negativity, but you're also fending off the experience of joy and positivity. You're fending off openness.
Speaker: Correct. yeah There's also a myth that you can share everything with everyone. And that's also not true. hard no no Oh, no, no. Not everyone's hard no. Hard nope, you know You got to pick very selectively who your people are and who are ready to hear your message and who will respect your you know, what you're telling them as opposed to like, ah, loser, what's up?
Speaker: I think, you know, that selection is key to, to feeling like being vulnerable is safe. So how do you practice it? Brene says you show up and you try it, embrace the uncertainty of life. Give it a try. There may be no guarantees, um but try practice self-compassion, treat yourself with kindness, kindness,
Speaker: when you fail or make mistakes, Jordan, like you've in that moment, you failed, like you were like like a mini failure, ah right? Like you didn't find the right words, at the right message at the right time in front of this huge crowd of kids, but like give yourself grace. Like it's yeah a big deal. We're all human. We all, and then set clear boundaries, who you're willing to share your authentic self with and when and in what circumstances.
Speaker: ah I encourage all of you to look at Brene Brown's TED Talk. I watched it today and I was inspired. I laughed. I teared up a few times. It was great. It was fantastic.
Speaker: Which led me to a little quiz for the two of you. All right? Are you guys ready? Sure. As a career C- minus student, I'm going to fucking know. I love this for you. Let's start the game show section of this episode.
Speaker: The fucking soundboard again? We have a sound effect.
Speaker: 70 fucking episodes I've been trying to get you to use sound drops twice this episode you like that that was fucking amazing that was great game show are you guys ready let's go transition go for it question one Eric you're first someone asks how are you doing what do you say I say, good, how you doing, cowboy? What's up?
Speaker: Oh, that's full of shit. what do you say? I answer in real time. If I'm not feeling great, I'll be like, yeah, I've been having a hard day, but I'm working through it. How about yourself?
Speaker: Like, if that's that's how I'm feeling, that's how I, yeah. All right. I'm 50, 50. No, I'd 75, 25, 75% of the time I give the, Oh, I'm great. Yeah, it's fine. And 25%, if you hit me in the right day, I'm like, uh, it's been, it's been a tough day. 100% of the time. I'm like, I'm doing just fine, buddy. How you doing? I don't want to burn this fucking stranger.
Speaker: If you call me up and you ask me, I'm like, ah, it's a fucking shit day. But like, if I go to the coffee shop, you know, ah I don't know why we do that, but we do it. Maybe it's about finding the right audience. Maybe that's basically the right audience. I think it's about it is it is about like opportunity and chance, too, because I find that the more that I do that, I find that people feel safe in that I set that tone for them.
Speaker: And they were like and they often. Yeah, me too. That's fair. Yeah. shit Hey. Yeah. jordan hey Yeah. All right, question two. Jordan, you're first.
Speaker: Ready? You make a mistake in front of people. Your first instinct is to what? oh Can I answer? Oh, do you want it short form or like can I? I...
Speaker: Just answer. Don't stall. No, no. Because like I have, no, I answer with lots of anecdotes and stories that like, okay I, I, I often do my work in my classroom and there have been times where I'm in the middle of like, I'm,
Speaker: I'm sanding a piece, which sanding looks very different in this in in my work where the clay will be bone dry. so it's super, super delicate, right? And I will be scraping it with a tool. And I remember this one time where I had the piece, I had my hand in the inner vessel and the exterior is around it and I'm carving it and literally the entire exoskeleton just collapsed and fell and crumbled to the floor.
Speaker: in front of an entire class of class of students. what you What did you do? Oh, well.
Speaker: That's all you said? Yeah, they were all like, I'm like, oh, this happens all the time. It's okay. All right. That's a good one. you make I mean, and that's that's a whole thing with also with my work too is that that it it is inherent in my work is that fuck ups happen and modeling for kids is so important in in my process and my teaching and and my and my artwork and whatever, whatever, whatever.
Speaker: But yeah, modeling, you know, the fuck up happened and okay. Yeah. It's a valuable learning experience. This is not the first time. It certainly won't be the last. Yeah, I'm a little upset. i really like that piece, but like i could I made it once. can make it again, and I'll make it better. Jordan, I...
Speaker: I really genuinely hope that this is not offensive in any way, but That's a great preamble. my Great preamble. my my I have a long running joke that when people say a funny thing, it's a chapter in my autobiography and I had my hand in in the inner vessel is definitely a chapter in my autobiography. No. Oh no. When it comes to clay, what I mean, there's gotta be endless jokes. Oh,
Speaker: Oh my God. The amount time. Wait, can we go off on a tangent? Can we go off? Please. I'll answer Paul's question after. Go for There's a process in making handles where it's called pulling a handle, but you start with a cylinder of clay and you're using gravity and you're pulling your hand down. Oh Jesus Christ. And it absolutely looks.
Speaker: job right and when i was taking ceramics in high school my high school ceramics teacher mr fucking ron tucker was come on ron tucker fucking ron tucker love the man tucker i hardly know her yeah he he just was completely oblivious and he would be like hey if anyone's having problems with pulling handles go to jordan and she's really good at it i'd be like
Speaker: Yeah. Yep. Thanks, Tuck. I know. I'd be like, Mr. Tucker, what are you doing? So like i when I'm teaching with high school high school students. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Or we're pinching something and my hand is in there and I'm like basically doing like and I just go, yeah. I know what you're thinking.
Speaker: It is that. I'm not an idiot. i know what you're thinking. Hey, you know what? Good practice, guys. Okay? Hey, listen. Okay. you Let's keep it classy, kid. Like, it's just like...
Speaker: The keep it classy point has sailed about a half hour ago, you two. ok To answer your question, Paul. Eric, your class when in front a group students, when i make a mistake ah in front of a group of students invariably my like ah involuntary response is to laugh.
Speaker: It's just like, yeah, that fucking happens. Like, of and of course it happens when people are watching and all you gotta do is just like step back, laugh at the situation, laugh at yourself.
Speaker: There is a solution. There's a workaround, like welcome to making shit. You know, this is how it goes. Yeah. my knee-jerk reaction is to make a joke or bring humor into it, which is a form of shielding. It's masking. Yep, shielding, masking. It masking. It is. All right, next.
Speaker: ah I'll go first because I put you guys in the hot seat. A friend starts crying while talking to you, which happened to me this week, by the way, a male friend.
Speaker: What do you do? And I watched and I did not, I did not get panicky. I did not feel awkward. I sat in it and I listened and I watched and I gave my honest feedback that I, I don't know. I rallied this week. I didn't deflect. Like I sat in it this week.
Speaker: pat Jordan, what did you do? What do you do? um I first take a couple of deep breaths and try to model breathing um because when you you take a deep breath, usually the other person will do that too. And that helps. That's smart.
Speaker: Oh, I like that. and then depending on where they're at, I will ask them, do you want me you listen or to help fix or to like provide a solution?
Speaker: Jordan. Very good. And then whatever their response is is what they'll do for them.
Speaker: Eric? um Entirely dependent on the individual. There friends that as soon as they start crying, will just move over and give them a hug. And there friends where if they get emotional, if they get choked up, know that their cue is like,
Speaker: theirque is like we just like, we got to talk it through. We got to figure it the fuck out, you know, even if it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's dependent. If it's a person I don't know very well, realistically I might freeze.
Speaker: Um, and my instinct as a human being is not logic trumps emotion. That's not the the right way to phrase it. Um,
Speaker: But like if I can figure out a solution or a potential solution, then at least I'm hopeful that we can work our way out of this circumstance. Even if it's complete dog shit and I know it if I'm the one who's emotional, right? Like there is there is an actionable thing to do. So I feel better sitting in the discomfort.
Speaker: So I think that's my instinct personally. All right. And last last question. ah Jordan, someone gives you a genuine compliment and your gut reaction is to. I i accept it.
Speaker: How so? like what's What's the response? Here's the thing is, especially this is a unique. ah not It's not unique, but just being the only female in this room right now with the two of you.
Speaker: Women are trained that when we are given a compliment that we deflect, we defer, we must be humble. And I accept it. If if if it's a good if it's if it's a genuine compliment, I accept it. And thank Thank you.
Speaker: um or i might come back with like a witty comment but i do find in and that's this is like a whole other conversation that we don't have time for but i do find that in doing that that can be quite confronting for other women to witness those kind of things um just because of how how we are are we trained you know Interesting.
Speaker: That might be an after show question. That is another conversation for another day. Okay. Eric, how do you take compliments? i so for a long, long time, I would deflect. It was impossible for me to take a compliment. And I had to learn over the years to simply say thank you. But I think like,
Speaker: there it's so, i don't dis ah I don't want to say it's disingenuous. Like i I really appreciate when people connect with the work that I make, but um I think I'm still so bad at taking a compliment that sometimes somebody will just like make a statement and I'll reflexively say, thank you so much that like, it almost doesn't like, they weren't like that piece is fantastic. And I'm like,
Speaker: You know, they're like, that's made of walnut. I'm like, thank you so much. You know, like, I actually, I didn't mean that. didn't mean that. You grew the walnut tree. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: Paul, what about you, buddy? Well, before I go to Paul, I want to point it back at the audience and say, how are you with taking compliments? Do you go to talk about all the flaws in your work? ah Come on.
Speaker: You know you do. All of us do it for so long. we oh oh Thank you, but you know this could be better. This isn't good enough. I messed up here. And there's an authenticity to that, and I do appreciate that fact, but...
Speaker: it takes time and experience to just say, thank you. I appreciate that. And I noticed it myself because when I would give someone a compliment and they wouldn't take it, it felt like it didn't land to me.
Speaker: i'm like, I'm trying to tell you how much your work means to me yeah and it's not fucking landing. Yeah, it's kinder to the person giving the compliment to just say thank you. Yeah, you want them to feel like I'm trying to convey what your piece did to me or meant to me, and you're not hearing it because of whatever wall or barrier or whatever. And I want it to land, honestly. And so when I saw that in other people, I said, oh, I guess that's true for me too.
Speaker: So when people say it to me, I do my best to say thank you. I really appreciate Like in my heart, I know like, sure, I could have done things better.
Speaker: i don't know that I'm deserving of this. I don't, maybe I am, i maybe I'm not, I don't know. I'm confused at times, honestly, if I'm being vulnerable, I'm confused, um but I let it land.
Speaker: and And sometimes it feels it feels right, like that was the right decision and they feel heard and other times, Yeah, I just feel conflicted, if I'm being totally honest. So that's not a clear answer to mine. it's it's But from seeing it in other people, i learned that I should at least make them feel heard, even if I'm conflicted inside.
Speaker: saying like deflecting a compliment when somebody is giving genuine reflection on on your work is almost as jarring to the person giving the compliment as being like, yeah, I fucking know.
Speaker: That's the real, yeah. Like, yeah, I'm so fucking good. Of course you love my work. you know It's hard. We're trained to not take it. But Jordan, you made a good point. We should just like let it sit and get used to it. All right, there Jordan- Oh, God, there was this one joke in my graduate program, but all of my cohort like took on where we had this little sandwich shop below our like space that we'd go to go to the sandwich maker and we'd be like, oh, my God, Kevin. That's what his name was. Kevin, your sandwiches are so good. And he'd say, your praise is my praise.
Speaker: And we were like, what the fuck does that even mean? I was going to say, what does that mean? But it took a while. And we were like, I think, and we still have like the eight of us still like text and whatnot. And we'll like some one, one person will say like, Oh my God, you're working. Your show is amazing. You're like, you're doing such great work or whatever.
Speaker: And we'll just say your praise my praise. And it's like, it's kind of like, it's kind of like the whole like namaste, like the divinity in me sees the divinity in you. But like in, in, hump in accepting it saying like, you're also great. You, you recognize the greatness in me and I'm, I'm recognizing the greatness in you.
Speaker: I had no idea you could have such profound experiences at a Subway sandwich shop. Oh, Eric, come on. It was not a Subway sandwich shop. It was not. It was just like a mom and mom. My daughter will be the first to tell you that sandwiches are a spiritual awakening. Yeah.
Speaker: I'm saying the sandwich might be one of the most versatile foods on the planet. Dude, my daughter and I go for sandwiches and she's like, what are you going to get? And it's a show off. It's like a face off because we know we're going to be sharing it. And it's like, what do you want to try? Yeah. All right.
Speaker: Jordan's third point ah from her original reel an hour and 22 minutes ago. Christ. Are we really going to do it? We're going to go to the third part? We're doing it. it' already doing around I was going say little hoppy. Okay. We're going speed round. No, we're doing it. Let's go. Okay.
Speaker: In embracing the uniqueness of each piece, I lean into the imperfections and challenge the rigid expectations of production pottery. Whether it's a noticeable crack or a subtle slip up from carving, every flaw offers an opportunity to sit with the discomfort of the intersection between unrealistic ideals and reality.
Speaker: My art speaks to the dehumanizing narratives that permeate our society, reminding us that we are all imperfect and vulnerable, with exteriors that can break at any moment.
Speaker: By treating one another with care and compassion, we can begin to see beyond the surface and connect with the complex heart, soul, and mind that resides within all of us.
Speaker: Oof. I mean, we can just end with that. I would like to start with two points. You said, fuck the end. I'm going to start. No, um and we're not done.
Speaker: Jordan, and like, whatever. We're not done. yeah Perfection is something we have talked about on this podcast before. yeah And you in some ways cast it as dehumanizing, which I like.
Speaker: I like that from the first time I heard it. Why? Because humans are not perfect. yeah Now, it it dehumanizing narratives of perfection and and production, um it gets me thinking two things.
Speaker: Why do we pursue perfection and why do we see quote unquote imperfection as such?
Speaker: why do Why do we do this to ourselves? Right. Are we setting ourselves up for fit? Eric, why do we pursue perfection in dovetails? No gaps, fucking piston fit, this, that. Why do we pursue? is is it because we want to get better or like- No, it's because because we strive for something greater than ourselves. in in In a world before contemporary production means, perfection was impossible. And seeking the impossible is a way to set the the aim, the goal, the sights just beyond what's attainable. And so you continue to strive. And that's that's ah that's a good thing, right? It can be a good thing. you know yeah can It can be bastardized and it can be it can be malevolent.
Speaker: But I think inherently it's a good thing. It keeps us striving for something greater than ourselves. To get better, to improve, to hone, to elevate what we're capable of. It's this funny dissonance of we perceive certain things in the world perfect. We think of nature as this perfectly harmonious thing. We know it's not. But it's imperfect at the same time. But there is a thing where if you zoom out far enough, it is perfect. It is the thing that we are striving toward. And it's only when you zoom in on all of the imperfections and the chaos and the fucking, the nastiness of it where you're like, oh, this is kind of fucked shit. Like how are we gonna navigate this? So I think there's value in setting the sights just beyond what you're capable of. I think the dissonance that we in the last 100 years or so are struggling with is that perfection is now so achievable that it's boring.
Speaker: It's achievable with machines, but not necessarily with a human. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we're not talking about mass production like as individuals. We're talking about three people who make unique objects ah in ah in a daily or weekly practice. And um like, so to us, perfection is the enemy because it works.
Speaker: degrades the work that we do and the beauty that we we make and put out into the world. But for the overwhelming majority of human history, it was an impossible thing to attain. So it was a good thing to strive toward.
Speaker: I'm going to do a rare thing right now, Eric. And agree with me? no i wouldn't go that far dick i'm going to compliment woodturners okay so i have a long history of shitting on woodturners on this podcast oh my god even though i i occasionally a woodturner um steve's a woodturner He's, ah I think, a third generation, might be fifth generation. i don't remember.
Speaker: Woodturner in England. Steve. and like i Sorry, I don't want to pick favorites. There's so many good Woodturners out there. Steve the Woodturner, Dave Dalby, Rich Finley, who was on our show previously, a a previous guest.
Speaker: they're all They all fall in the same category, 100%. But... Steve has written this in particular is like, let's say he makes 15 spindles ornately turned spindles. He wants them to be so perfect. They're indistinguishable from one another.
Speaker: They're so perfect. You can't tell a human did it. That's how good he is. And Dave and Rich fall into that same category. They are so fucking good at their craft. They have mastered it to such a high degree. You can't even tell if it's machine or human.
Speaker: Right. i mean, that's amazing for them, but I know. Hold on. hold I'm not done. Jordan. sorry sorry start saying that was all And to Steve, that is ah Steve. I hope I'm not speaking for you. And if you hear this episode, please give me grace. Vulnerability. Um,
Speaker: That is the goal. He wants to, he's constantly striving as a nth generation woodturner in his family with pride to get better and better and better. And to the point that you almost can't tell a human did it now.
Speaker: And while I understand that pursuit of perfection, in essence, like you just want to get better at what you do. i have it too. Eric, I know you have it. Jordan, I'm sure you have it. Yeah. Is that undermining the whole idea of putting humanity in our work?
Speaker: Well, and that even ties into AI stuff that's becoming part of the conversation right now of machine. Like, where is the distinction between hand and human and machine, right?
Speaker: is I do think that there's going to be... I'm predicting... a wave in the next like 10 years of people looking for more of imperfections and looking for more of being able to see the mark of the craftsman and the mark of the maker, because that is an indicator that this was made by someone rather than a machine or a computer or three d printed.
Speaker: i I agree entirely. I think that there is there are certain... And this is... So coming all the way back to the conversation about copying. Yeah. I encourage people to copy my work all the time.
Speaker: And I take no offense to it because much... Just don't sell it. Well, there's that, right? There's it for sure, for sure. um but But because so much of my work is done um with hand tools, or or with small machines by hand, even if you did exactly the same thing that I did,
Speaker: your hand moves differently. Your arm is a different length. So the radius at which you swipe an angle grinder is slightly different than the way that I do it. So it's going to come out differently so you can copy it, but there are delineations between what my hand does and what your hand does. And I think that's the point you're getting at Jordan is there are certain tells of the human body and of the human creative process that, um,
Speaker: I think people are are yearning for already and will continue, that that desire will continue to grow in this, I don't know, I don't know, fuck all about AI. I'm not smart enough to have an opinion on it, but like- Yes, you are. It's, it's I think there is that thing of like, we there's something- Uncanny Valley. There's something so perfect. It's, it's imperfect about it.
Speaker: That is going to um start to undermine its value. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Jordan. ah You've been very patient through this last point about perfection and imperfection.
Speaker: Jordan, let me ask you a question. Obviously, the exteriors of a lot of your work are very fragile and they often break. And that's something I have had to deal with too. Some of the gothic pieces I'm doing, there's breaks in it. Oh, sure. cut across a knot and there's whole volume void in the piece and I leave it because I think it's beautiful how do you deal with that I leave it leave the cracks I leave those imperfections and you know and then it becomes question is calling them imperfections us feeding into this fucking narrative great thank you for turning it back on the great fucking question yeah
Speaker: Oh, yeah. These unexpected, maybe unexpected attributes or like what do you fucking call it? Yeah, I mean, you. These are opportunities, these beautiful, natural. That's expansive. I like opportunities. Sure. I mean, the nice thing too, and I mean, we didn't even go into, there's so there's so much we could talk about on just responding to a medium that I think I could wax poetically about.
Speaker: responding to clay as medium that you guys do with wood um that i resonate with so much that it if it turns into this thing of feeling like a collaborative experience with your medium right rather than you're just the the artist you're telling the medium what to do but the medium sometimes tells you like i can do this or i can't do this and you go okay i can work with this for Yeah. okay i can't work you know or oh there's a bur here or there's a knot here sure i can
Speaker: i can work around this with clay it's it's very similar but but very different um And that's something that's just so fun to talk about.
Speaker: um and it And it does. It offers these opportunities for allowing the viewer to see your work and to see that it is not created by a machine and it's not plastic.
Speaker: And it's clearly a natural medium. And you were responding to it and not only responding to it but in collaboration with this medium, i'll which I think is something that only people who are makers with natural mediums really understand that kind of language.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. That's what I want to talk about in the after show. I want to hear more about that shit because I'm working on a project right now and I really resonated with what you just said and there's interesting tensions in But I want to hear about what it is to work with because when I think of clay, I think of a homogenous material. No, it's not. obviously it has its limitations and it's a natural material.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Jordan, thank you so much for joining us on this episode. This has been a great one. Thank you. I appreciate so much. Thank you guys.
Speaker: Your thoughts have given us such great um food for thought and we appreciate ah your contribution today. george jordan And Jordan, where can the people find you? Where can they find you on the internet? Where can people sign up for your classes?
Speaker: Oh, great. um So you can find me. My website is Jordan Coons with a c like multiple raccoons. JordanCoonCeramics.com.
Speaker: And my Instagram is JordanCoonCeramics. I do have some classes through the Ceramics School. And yeah, go to my website and you'll find. Can I just ask why you didn't grab the URL Jordan multiple raccoons.com because I'm going to Google if that's available right now. I'll take it. I'll nab it. I'll nab it.
Speaker: It's so funny in our family, like we're all makers. Right. And um my dad is like, my dad is a carpenter, but he's also getting into bees and like honey. And my sister is like designing stickers for him and it's Coons Honey. And it's a little raccoon with a honey pot. And it's adorable. And our whole thing is raccoons.
Speaker: Amazing. it just Yeah. Well, Jordan, multiple raccoons ceramics. Thank you again. And we'll see you in the after show, y'all. Okay, bye. Bye.
