Transcript
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, here they are. Hold there. We are back ah We are back.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Another episode of your favorite podcast that likes to hurt feelings and think about why we do things, not how we do things. This. is woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And of course, my boy is in the chair across the screen, Eric Curtis.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: fine furniture maker and content creator.
Netflix's Erik C: ¿Cómo estás, motherfuckers? Now I want y 'all to understand. You hear these sweet, docile tones right now, how warm. these vocals are right now. We upgraded these mics because we love you that much.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So warm. So warm.
Netflix's Erik C: It's how good it sounds.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so upgraded.
Netflix's Erik C: You know who else is warm and cuddly? One of my. One of my goodest friends. We've been friends. I mean, we met In. 2019?
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, 2020.
nick : End of 2019. Chemistry test.
Netflix's Erik C: Beginning. Yeah. Yeah. And. and we became fast friends as we filmed a netflix show together uh and and i very much. uh um in part have to blame Nick for. taking on the social media as a full -time thing he is not only one of the smartest business people i know one of the most genuine human beings i know uh hell of a plant guy And the finest damn landscaper.
Netflix's Erik C: this side of netflix It's Nicholas Katsompas.
nick : Ugh. That was a wonderful intro. Eric, I... you know I was going to say that you're such a humble guy. and just I've learned so much from you.
Netflix's Erik C: Don't lie though.
nick : but I see your talk. your your little name it doesn't say eric curtis it says netflix's Eric Curtis. Apparently that Emmy went to your head. I don't know.
Netflix's Erik C: Listen.
nick : But ah it's good to be here regardless.
Netflix's Erik C: I feel like, what's it been now, Paul? Like, 60 episodes, 70 episodes? Like, we got a few in the bank.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Uh huh.
Netflix's Erik C: I change my name every single episode to try to match.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Every single time.
Netflix's Erik C: what's what we're talking about you're the first person to ever acknowledge that So thank you.
nick : Do you really?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: hu
nick : Happy to.
Netflix's Erik C: ah So I do want to start off. We don't normally talk about what we're drinking. However. I want to start off by acknowledging that this this is The Fiddler.
Netflix's Erik C: from um A, what is it? AWS. ASW, my apologies, an Atlanta -based distillery. This is the last of the three bottles I bought as a ah present to myself when we got done.
Netflix's Erik C: It's filming the show. So this is, this is, and it's a fucking delight by the way.
nick : Mmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: hu
Netflix's Erik C: Um, so I'm going to, I'm going to finish this off with us tonight, buddy boy. You know?
nick : Wow.
Netflix's Erik C: bring Bring it full circle.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's right. Very symbolic, Eric.
nick : Oh.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's also just good and I want it. You know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : Why not?
Netflix's Erik C: So. Uh... Listen, I know. Oh, that's a that's a heavy pour. I'm not going to be sober by the end of this one. This is a this is a strong batch to. um Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: Cheers, friends. so The people always want to... um you know people ask me about the show still i don't know if you get questions about the show
nick : All the time.
Netflix's Erik C: I get questions about the show a lot. and um I can say. from the jump that it was. One of the most. profound and positive experiences of my life.
Netflix's Erik C: It was so much fun. Um, Luckily. the four of us, you, me, Adair, Paige, we got along. like from the jump from from day one we were thick as thieves um And I'm really, really grateful for that because I was the only person without television experience there.
Netflix's Erik C: you guys had experience and and you allowed me to kind of figure it out as we went. And I think that was part of the thing that made it such a ah wonderful experience is I felt the freedom. to just kind of do the thing that I thought I was supposed to be doing.
Netflix's Erik C: knowing that if i got it wrong one of you guys would give me like a gentle correction And so. ultimately what I want to know. through tonight's conversation is.
Netflix's Erik C: What? Was it like... for you to film the show and in what was the collaborative experience like when you're creating a thing with other people but you don't know really what the end goal is you don't know what the final product is you're just
nick : And then...
Netflix's Erik C: in the process of creating.
nick : Yeah, no, that's a fantastic question. and I think. To your point, you know I think the camaraderie. between the the five of us, including Danielle, right, was was just so strong and, you know, in ah in a weird way.
Netflix's Erik C: oh
nick : I don't know if many people... who watch the show know this. um but We were supposed to film in 2020. Supposed to film in 2020. We got down to Atlanta.
nick : We were in hotel rooms.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm -hmm.
nick : right we're just going to stay in our own separate hotel rooms Pandemic hits. We get delayed. We didn't even know if we were going to come back.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm hmm.
nick : When we did come back. we had already had almost like a full year of us just
Netflix's Erik C: It was 18 months.
nick : being friends and hanging 18 months yeah oh my god Wow.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : 18 months of us building. our friendship outside. of Netflix. And when they said, hey, we're we're ready to go, we're coming back. We said, you know, why don't we live together? Why don't we just get a house? That would be way more fun than some.
nick : kind of you know sterile hotel room. And I think that was one of the best decisions.
Netflix's Erik C: oh hu
nick : that we made. inadvertently for the show's success. was us just Being in a house together, sitting on the kitchen counters, having conversations late into the night. right? Like we did it all.
Netflix's Erik C: The counter sessions, the counter sessions were real.
nick : Oh. It was real.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : and that's i think it came through on the screen and i to your original question about it being
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : you know, this kind of ah Destinationless. right process like It was a lesson in surrender. Right. Because. you could You could have...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Whoa.
nick : Oh ho ho!
Netflix's Erik C: We're six minutes in and we're you're dropping gems on us like that?
nick : Whoa.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah A lesson in surrender?
Netflix's Erik C: Jesus Christ.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Netflix's Erik C: Sorry, Buddha.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know.
nick : Oh, you know, I've been in this IVF process for a while now, so I learned a lot about surrender.
Netflix's Erik C: Fuck. ah oh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: o
Netflix's Erik C: That's fair.
nick : We'll get there.
Netflix's Erik C: That's fair.
nick : We'll get there.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : ah But this idea of just, you know. you can be as prepared. as ever possible. You could have plan A, B, C, D all the way to F. and see You can.
nick : Never prepare for the unknown. And i I think back to that episode. I think it was. Oh, which house was it? The day it rained. when Eric, you and I are...
Netflix's Erik C: Oh. That was the last episode we filmed.
nick : a that was That was the last episode we filmed.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : And. you know, we had up to that point hadn't dealt with much weather.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : And we're like, you know what? Fuck it. We just got to do what we got to do.
Netflix's Erik C: That was...
nick : Just make the most of it. And and when you when you go into it with that perspective, sometimes creativity does best with constraints.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : And... it was It was just so much fun to be able to problem solve in the moment. with people who you respect as not just their their craft and their professionalism but just who they are as humans.
Netflix's Erik C: a
nick : So that was just it was so much fun.
Netflix's Erik C: That was, I forgot about the the mudslide episode. I think that was maybe episode seven originally when it aired. It was the...
nick : Yes.
Netflix's Erik C: the house with seven or eight kids.
nick : Yes.
Netflix's Erik C: Um, And that, yeah, it was a downpour and we couldn't get the landscaping materials from staging to the house. like
nick : Couldn't do virtually anything.
Netflix's Erik C: tractors got stuck. Like it was, I. paul this is not an exaggeration like we were we were wearing like muck boots and we were ankle deep in muck it was impossible to navigate ah Yeah, I forgot all about that.
nick : Yeah, not not ideal conditions, but you know.
Netflix's Erik C: No, no, not when you're trying to paint a house.
nick : You make it work. No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. I'm stuck on the initial question, Eric, that you raised. And and Nick, you spoke to it. You said you used the word surrender. Um.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So often we design, we do things. with a goal in mind and a clear goal. We always try to have a clear goal in mind, right? we we We outline what the.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The criteria are for that goal. And we have a picture. Maybe do we do renderings and we already know what we're going towards. That seems. Like. Quite easy in comparison to what you described, which is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have to be artistic. I have to be productive. I have to make something. But I'm not exactly sure what it might look like in the end because I'm not i'm not the sole architect of this thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now you guys were talking, I guess, about a house in total, right? The the kitchen and the interiors and the exteriors and the landscaping.
nick : and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But I think, i you know, outside, like thinking about like the the listener, like why would the list, you know, the listener cares. Like, of course, it's interesting to hear about the ins and outs of a television show because none of us have been on one except you guys. But.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: From... an audience point of view i think we often have to do that at work we're often asked to create. Maybe, and we don't. quite know what the final product might look like because we're ah a cog in a machine. We're just part of the process. I'm not minimizing our role, but I'm just saying.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're only part of that process. And Nick, you said, well, you have to learn to surrender, maybe creative control to some extent, not entirely. so But then that begs the question, if you don't exactly know where you're going, how do you know what's good enough for your own part?
nick : it
Netflix's Erik C: let me i'm gonna i'm gonna give you a perfect example about nick which i still think about sometimes um We had the... the i don't know what we called them the the warehouse scenes, right? Where we were, we were shooting the shit. We were ideating, we were building things and we would have these collaborative sessions between Nick, myself, a Darren page.
Netflix's Erik C: And ah the way we filmed them. every single time there was a walkout. Like we would we would leave the set. And there was like ah the four of us walking out. and without fit i mean there there were eight episodes we probably filmed six to eight of these in episodes so there's dozens of these moments and every single time nick had a legitimate banger of a one -liner And they, that like, it was just hilarious nonsense bullshit.
Netflix's Erik C: and they didn't use any of them.
nick : None.
Netflix's Erik C: not a single one.
nick : Zero.
Netflix's Erik C: And i was I'm like, there were like, we would legitimately be busting up laughing on the other side of the door. So I think that's a good example of like. You... I don't think they knew. how they were going to use the warehouse scenes, right? but what nick did really well in that moment is to bring his a -game to give him something funny to give him something to make the people smile if they chose to use that as a transition and they didn't And that's fine. And the show is still good, I think.
Netflix's Erik C: Um, But there's a lot of there's a lot of gems on the cutting room floor. Because of it.
nick : Unfortunately, I think.
Netflix's Erik C: No.
nick : It's funny, you mentioned the warehouse. one one of the lines, inadvertently. We were talking about cutting down a tree. This was at the art studio.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : this huge dogwood tree. And. I said, this was subconscious, I said, it would be treason. to cut down this tree.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : I didn't even realize I didn't even realize what I said. And Eric goes, oh, there he goes again.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : I'm like, what happened? what What are you talking about?
Netflix's Erik C: Yep. Yep. that's I mean, that's the kind of thing. You just, you gotta... in my experience of it. um It was, I think that I had an idea of what the show was going to be. And so I tried to bring that energy and I relied on.
Netflix's Erik C: um tony sacco who is our director dave metzler and bob who are our executive producers and then uh the three of them um Nick Page and Adair. to if at any point I got too far off of. What?
Netflix's Erik C: the the general direction of the vision was to course correct. Um, But I also recognize that's all I could do. one of the things that brought me a lot of comfort was I ah had a very upfront conversation with Dave when we first started. And Dave. Like.
Netflix's Erik C: Dave made the process of learning how to shoot a TV show comfortable and easy, and I am forever grateful to him for that.
nick : He was awesome.
Netflix's Erik C: um But I said to him, like. Day one. I was like, hey, just so you know. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing Like, I don't know how to be on TV.
nick : specific
Netflix's Erik C: So if I'm just going to like. do what I do. And then if it's wrong, I'm just going to need you to tell me that it's wrong. And he was like, I got you. Like, we'll figure it out. and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Did they tell you that it was wrong ever?
Netflix's Erik C: Well, so I'll give you i'll give you an anecdote. ah This was the first day of filming. I don't know if you remember this, Nick. This was pre. pre shutdown.
nick : Oh, so the first first go -round.
Netflix's Erik C: The first, first day of filming.
nick : Oh.
Netflix's Erik C: So we were all gathered in the show. changed since then. So we didn't end up shooting scenes like this, but we were in the warehouse and we were addressing the whole crew.
Netflix's Erik C: So there's like 40 people on camera in front of the four of us and we're addressing them, telling them like what what the vision is, what we're going to do.
nick : ah
Netflix's Erik C: And Adair gets up in front of everybody and he starts telling them X, Y, and Z. And then Dave is like, okay, Eric, you get up there. And like, this is ultimately where you're getting to with your point, but just like, say what you got to say. And this was this was day one. right This is 10 minutes into day one, and I get up there.
Netflix's Erik C: And I just start imitating a dare. And Adair is a gay black man. But like ah my nerves were so high and I love Adair and respect Adair so much that like it just came out like Adair. And we got three minutes into that and Dave just calls cut and he pulls me aside and he literally goes.
Netflix's Erik C: What the fuck was that, man? What are you doing? And I was like, I don't know. What do you mean? He was like, you're being a dare. I was like, oh, who am I supposed to be? He goes. You. I was like, how do i how do I be me? And he goes.
Netflix's Erik C: You're a teacher. We hired you because you can teach people what you're doing and what you need to do. So just go teach them what's going to happen on that day. And I was like, Oh, that's great direction. I can do that.
Netflix's Erik C: Like just go be a teacher.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: you know so that was that was a good example of like dave had the vision
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I say.
Netflix's Erik C: And I both didn't have the vision or the experience. to know not to impersonate a dare in front of a group of people.
nick : Learning to be yourself. is the hardest part of being on TV. Right. Because you think, oh, I've got to go. and and do this thing and whatever. And the best shows are the ones where they just cast it really well and put together people who.
nick : have their own way of doing things and their own way of communicating and you know it's funny like the best direction i got was was you know, I, talk about, oh, um I chose this tree and this plant for this reason. It symbolizes this and da -da -da -da -da. I was so happy and proud of it. And Dave would be like.
nick : Nick, that was amazing. Can you say that all again in 10 seconds? And I was like, oh, all right. like And. And it was a good lesson for me that I still use to this day because
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : If if. what you're saying is great. It doesn't matter if it's not delivered in a way. That.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : keeps people's attention.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh Nick.
nick : right And when you're when you're filming for you know four hours, you think, oh, this is going to be a four -hour segment. It's really only five minutes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : And you got to be. clear and to the point and still make an impact.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, that is such good advice. My scientific mentor. told me the same thing, but in different words. She's like, when you talk about your research. You should be able to talk about it in 30 minutes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: 10 minutes. One minute. 30 seconds or 10 seconds. It just you never know who's going to ask you.
nick : Amen.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what you're working on. And depending on the audience, you may not have more than 10 to 15 seconds of their attention. And if you are not prepared to summarize your work or what you're interested in, in that kind of timeframe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it will it will not land. So Nick, you're totally right. And I've been thinking about that since I was in graduate school. It's like, I have to be able. to wrap it up and make it quick in some cases or Elongate it in other cases, long- form yeah longer form storytelling.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's a great piece of advice.
nick : 100%.
Netflix's Erik C: Paul. Have you ever... um You've never worked with like a designer or had to to make to somebody else's specs, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No. I'm usually the designer I'm usually asked to be the designer.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Netflix's Erik C: Sure sure sure Um, i guess The reason I'm asking is because... um That in my experience, at least like that's. that can be a similar feedback loop to what we experienced on the show of like if a designer is hiring you like nick you you have worked with interior designers landscape designers etc etc right so you can speak to this and i'm curious to hear if your experience differs but Um, When somebody has a vision of a home,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Netflix's Erik C: And you are a cog in that machine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm.
Netflix's Erik C: Your job is to produce X so that it fits in the the grander scheme of the vision. um You will send sketches, then you'll send CAD renderings, then you'll send samples, then you'll send et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Netflix's Erik C: And you'll get feedback along the way to try to narrow the path of what you're creating because it's ultimately somebody else's vision. and it's's It's easier to do that, I think, at least in my experience.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: o
Netflix's Erik C: than it was on the show because the show had so many parts and we were watching all of the parts simultaneously whereas when you're building for a designer You're just.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Got it.
Netflix's Erik C: building the cabinets.
nick : Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Right.
nick : And one one caveat there, though, is is you know when... You look at Eric's work. Right? He can map that out. to an inch. Right? every single detail.
nick : plants Plants don't work that way.
Netflix's Erik C: Mmm.
nick : Right? I could say, hey, you know. This hydrangea I'm going to put in. Yeah, the picture I sent you, the rendering has five blooms, but it might have three. I don't know what the nursery has.
Netflix's Erik C: That's fair.
nick : Right? I don't know what the how they say that. You can't guarantee things the same way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I seen that, Nick. I see that.
nick : And the the funny thing is is about this show, which I think anyone who's in... the trades would... would laugh and appreciate at the same time. is that when you're working with a client very rarely are you interacting with every other person who's working on that job.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm -hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right right right right you' you're siloed yeah
nick : right So sometimes, yeah, sometimes I go to a job site and because with my landscaping business, most of our work is in New York.
Netflix's Erik C: never.
nick : Right. We've got these homes upstate. especially new builds, whatever. And I'm like, oh man, that contractor, he totally messed this up. Like you should have done this way so that I could have put the beds here, whatever.
Netflix's Erik C: That's the classic. Oh, this now I gotta fix this fucking guy's work.
nick : And I And the contractor could come here and be like, oh, why did the landscaper put it this way?
Netflix's Erik C: yeah
nick : It's terrible. But now we're all together. So if I have a problem.
Netflix's Erik C: Yep.
nick : The guy's right next to me.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah
nick : i'm like oh eric you really muck this one up like
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. yeah
nick : It's just... it's just such a unique working environment where my team is like you know at at most you know. five to seven people depending on the job.
Netflix's Erik C: a
nick : right Now we have a team of 200 with every single trade professional there. in a day.
Netflix's Erik C: Working simultaneously.
nick : Like. Oh my God, it was it was nuts.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So... Eric, when you asked me that question. it It dawned on me that I do this all the time. is We do science for customers. like we're a contract we're We're a contractor.
Netflix's Erik C: Sure. Yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because we specialize in a super niche part of biology.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's super ultra niche, right? And big pharma companies ask us to help it um with it, right?
Netflix's Erik C: nick Nick, for reference, I'm still pretty sure that Paul solved COVID and he just refuses to...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh sorry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did not. I did did not solve COVID.
Netflix's Erik C: like he's he's his He's a secret...
nick : Paul, you solved COVID.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did not.
Netflix's Erik C: je Yeah, he's a genius.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did not solve COVID.
Netflix's Erik C: And he doesn't like when I tell people that he is a genius, but he's probably the smartest friend I have.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric. Yeah. Eric, please, i did don't say that anymore.
Netflix's Erik C: See?
nick : what was the What was the solution?
Netflix's Erik C: See?
nick : We got to get Fauci on the call.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So.
nick : He's taking some heat.
Netflix's Erik C: Ivermectin, ironically. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As I was saying. Um. I have to talk to customers and they say, hey, we're working on ah this drug for this disease. And we think that mathematical modeling can help us.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but we're not quite sure. we yeah And so I have to kind of listen to their goal. like It's just like we're talking about how do you contribute to something when you're not quite sure exactly what the goal is. So I have to listen.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: uh, to what they want to accomplish. they Listen very carefully and sort of imagine what their goal is. Even if I don't, even if I didn't come up with it, I kind of try to put myself in their shoes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, maybe you put yourself in your shoes for the homeowner and you kind of like get in their head. Like, is this a modern home, a more classic home? How do you imagine, how do you imagine, imagine like, how does it look from the street?
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What does it make you feel? What do you, you know, and you try to, you try to like read the tea leaves to get some sense of the goal. Because that helps you. kind of it carves out areas like you can definitely rule out big whole areas of like space.
nick : Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then at least you're going to be closer. Right. You can point yourself in a much. more directed way. You may not go right to the solution, but at least you're pointing in the right. and You're pointing north. Yeah.
nick : Totally, totally. and you know it's funny like There's a and we'll we'll get to this when we talk more about like the plants themselves right but like There's this education that needs to happen.
nick : And it happened on our set, too, where sometimes they'd be like, all right, Eric, you've got a team of 15 people. and we got all your plans this is that and they turned to me and like so nick uh What are we doing today?
Netflix's Erik C: you know you need You need two guys to lay a whole lawn, right?
nick : like you Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : You've got you've got your your five. part -time guys And you know how are we going to approach this? So there there is some plant education. and A lot of it stems from this idea, and this phenomenon known as plant blindness.
nick : where we as humans are less likely to observe and notice plants in our space because they do not emote the same kind of emotional response that we would get for an animal.
nick : for For instance, you walk by a dog on the street.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : That dog has... has eyes it has a mouth it has what we view as expressions right we notice that dog You walk by the oak tree and you don't notice the oak tree.
Netflix's Erik C: Speak for yourself, brother.
nick : For most, for for most people.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do. I fucking noticed the oak tree get the hell out of here bro
Netflix's Erik C: Come on.
nick : I... For most people.
Netflix's Erik C: laughter
nick : For most people. This crowd, I'm... For sure noticing the oak tree because you're like, ooh, I'm going to cut that sucker down.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, dude, I would I would say 70 % of our listeners right now are nodding their head.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: If I can, I noticed the damn tree.
nick : Yeah, but you might you might not notice the flowers. You might not notice the lichen, right?
Netflix's Erik C: Sure, sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a
nick : There's other aspects of it that we don't connect with. And when you have that plant blindness, it leads to almost a and not anyone's fault, just an ignorance about how plants work.
Netflix's Erik C: m
nick : And. I'll never forget this. I had a client up in Rhinebeck, New York. And it's a beautiful second home. And she goes, I want a plant. fruit trees for my kids. I was like, oh, no problem. i Planted those in probably September.
nick : beautiful little 10. 10 fruit tree orchard. She calls me. in late November. He goes, Nick. I'm so disappointed in you. The landscape looks... Terrible.
nick : I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. did what Did anything happen? Did anything that die? Whatever. She goes. All the fruit trees? They're dead. They lost their leaves.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
nick : And I was like, oh my god, please hold. I put it on mute and I turned to i was with my business partner at the time. I'm like. Am I going to have to explain to a 45 year old woman?
Netflix's Erik C: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
nick : how deciduous trees work.
Netflix's Erik C: Yep. Well, you had me at second home in Rhinebeck, so like I knew who you were talking about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, you are Nick.
nick : Okay. Yeah, well, there you go, right? so Hop back on the phone. I'm like, hey. Good news.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Good news!
Netflix's Erik C: They're actually just fine.
nick : Plants are dead. But like that's, can you imagine? Could you imagine being a 40?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
nick : plus your old person. and not knowing that that's how nature works.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick. Nick. Don't be ageist. Don't be ageist now.
nick : I mean, I could have ended it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There's some of us.
nick : Could you imagine being a 40 plus person?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: there's There's some of us.
Netflix's Erik C: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There are some of us who are actually north of 45 years of age, okay?
Netflix's Erik C: there is There is one person on this podcast that is 40 plus right now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And it is not Eric, so.
nick : We're not gonna name names
Netflix's Erik C: We're not going to name names.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah okay so you know i feel like we've danced around this issue but it sounds to me like
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Creating without a solid goal in mind is something all of us have to do quite often, whether it's in work, you guys had to do it on your show, you do it for customers. And it requires what I'm hearing as kind of a summary is like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You have to do some due diligence, but you also have to surrender and take some risks. And you also have to trust. whoever you're working with collaboratively, if it's more than just you.
nick : Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You have to have a trust in them. Eric, you were trusting your... Show ah mates to help Put some guardrails around you in case because you didn't know. You didn't know what you didn't know. And like I trust them that if I'm going too off track, they're going to kind of.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: nudge me back.
Netflix's Erik C: Agreed. 100. And that's what made it a positive experience. And I think. i think that's what made the show good i've also as a as a professional head. experiences where i didn't trust the interior designer the the architect, whatever it was. And it always, it I mean.
Netflix's Erik C: I granted this is, this is a coloring. I get it. But like. You walk on the site, you do your job. And you walk out and you're like, that doesn't look good. Like there's nothing about it that's interesting.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow Alright. But that brings up my next question. Actually, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How do you deal with collaboration? If it goes well, it's easy.
Netflix's Erik C: about
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: if it goes well it's fine right no problem it was great we had the best experience ever But like... What if it's not great?
Netflix's Erik C: if it If it doesn't go well, you...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, like, like.
Netflix's Erik C: you You take 50 % up front and 50 % as you walk out of the last day.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Dick.
Netflix's Erik C: That's how you deal with it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: Like I did my fucking job.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. A couple of questions, both you and Nick.
Netflix's Erik C: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How do you deal with collaboration and do you like enjoy genuinely collaboration or do would you prefer to do your own thing?
Netflix's Erik C: I love. collaborating with people. It's one of it's one. And and Nick, I don't want to speak for you, but I feel like same.
nick : I think I love collaborating more than Eric does, and I'll explain why in a minute. But go ahead.
Netflix's Erik C: I it's it's. Honestly, one of the things that brings me the most joy in life, it is... um collaborating with another person allows you to be to put yourself in the learner seat again in the novice seat and you can be like this is what i bring to the table you bring it even if we're in the same field
Netflix's Erik C: you bring a different viewpoint, you bring a different experience, you bring ah different ideas, different techniques, and we can create something that is... ah potentially. new and exciting.
Netflix's Erik C: Right. And the only way to find out is to do the thing, which is why I love collaboration. Whereas like if I'm if i'm taking on a ah piece of work by myself. I am tasked with figuring out how to create my vision, which is also very fulfilling, but there's no Like. It's very rare that you get a roll of the dice in that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, yeah
Netflix's Erik C: There's no like, we'll fucking find out, you know? Like, let's see what happens.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: there's There's an element of excitement and unpredictability, right?
Netflix's Erik C: Oh well. Well, so... so um In the pre -call, Nick mentioned the table that he and I built a couple of years ago.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Tell us about it.
Netflix's Erik C: which is...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: ah So this is ah ah a coffee table, and it's a live edge slab. For those of you with the video feed, Nick's showing it right now. So it's in inver it's a river table, basically, with a trough in the middle. and ah The thing I love so much about that is like it's it's such a basic build. like The legs are square. ah the like The overhang is too much. We built it in...
Netflix's Erik C: 12 hours.
nick : Two days?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: e Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, like two short days.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: eric
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric. You didn't mention that there's plants down the center of the river table.
Netflix's Erik C: Well, so that's the thing that's the thing that makes that brings me so much joy.
nick : ah
Netflix's Erik C: Every time I see the table, it is a different amalgamation of living plants, right? So the the trough in the middle is lined with epoxy and it's sloped so so ah the soil or rocks can drain out to one side.
Netflix's Erik C: And Nick always puts different plants in there. And when we first shot the table, like we photographed it for his book, ah we had three different... uh types of plants we had apothos We had succulents and we had something else.
nick : And we did flowers actually in in in one of them.
Netflix's Erik C: We did flowers.
nick : Yep.
Netflix's Erik C: And, and Nick and I. viciously disagreed on what would the best, ah you know, like orientation of the table was at the time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm -hmm.
Netflix's Erik C: But like, that's what made it so good because we were both so proud of the table and then like Nick could do his thing. And he'd be like, the path. pathos looks great and i'm like ah you're wrong though like the succulents look amazing you know ah
nick : It... It was one of those projects where. You know, I mean, I'm handy. i'm not a I don't consider myself a woodworker, an artist like you guys are. But it was so cool to blend.
nick : our two areas of expertise. and and bring something to life that still to this day like it sits here in our our house and people constantly ask about it. kind like I get people ask me, can I buy, where'd you buy this?
nick : People would want to buy it. and we've debated selling the plans or not, ceasing it out, whatever.
Netflix's Erik C: We did, yeah.
nick : um but it's It's one of those things where it's so fulfilling to come together and... have Your. Your weakness. of a skill.
nick : The... filled by someone else's competency.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah That's so good
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : Right? You know, yeah it was it was my you complete me moment, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, Eric, did you like put your arms around his waist at one point?
nick : And...
Netflix's Erik C: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
nick : Oh, pretty much.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: theres There's a lot of prom poses.
nick : I mean, you should see the photos.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : yeah
Netflix's Erik C: I don't know.
nick : ah But my my favorite my one of my favorite stories from the show. Because, like, you know, you... live together in the house and there's long days and Eric was like my big brother. And I was like, Eric, do you want to go do this? Eric, you want to go do this?
nick : and then we would uh We normally, we had three cars. that we normally drive together at five in the morning.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : And I wake up.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : Bye, bitch. Hello, world! Like, merry, you know, morning person.
Netflix's Erik C: this This motherfucker five o 'clock in the morning. Bright as the sunshine.
nick : And I'll never forget, I think we were at like week six. I was like, hey, Eric, you ready to go? He goes. I think I'm gonna take my own car today.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Netflix's Erik C: I was like I love you buddy.
nick : He just, he needed some space. He needed some space.
Netflix's Erik C: But I just, I needed 30 minutes to wake the fuck up. It was so early.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric. Check.
nick : It was great. Oh, believe me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: It was July and we were on set before the sun came up.
nick : It...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah Give me fucking excuses now.
Netflix's Erik C: And we had we had a 40 minute drive and he wanted to talk the entire time.
nick : No, he's he's justified. Eric hadn't had his coffee yet.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, poor baby.
nick : It was. it was It was tough. It was tough.
Netflix's Erik C: hey we shared a trailer though you know a lot of the time we shared a trailer and it was great you know
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : We did. Muy bien.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah So you both are.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Pro collaboration, yeah?
nick : Yes.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As am I. I'm a hundred percent pro collaboration. Well, I think it involves a lot of trust in your collaborator and you have to surrender, Nick.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah You have to say like, Hey, what happens happens. And if it's not, if it doesn't work out exactly as I imagined. That's okay. maybe Maybe it's even better in a way, right? You have to be open to the possibility that...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: someone will bring something that lights you up that you never imagined at all. And to me, that's that's the magic.
Netflix's Erik C: Paul, I
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is is someone bringing something that i didn't conceptualized
Netflix's Erik C: I feel like more often than not you collaborate, no?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do. I pretty much only collaborate.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, when when's the last time you didn't collaborate?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah I don't know, because I'm so bored with my own ideas, honestly.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah? I, well, so the the last thing that I can think of is, is, uh, we had been talking about you making those stacked boxes and, and you made a couple of prototypes and then you got like bored with it and you were like, nah, you know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nah, it didn't work out. yeah It didn't work out. Mm -mm.
Netflix's Erik C: I feel like there's something in you that having the feedback and having. Um, to design to a specification. for lack of a better way to phrase it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: um the challenge excites you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It does. And the unknown excite me excites me because if you collaborate, you're never quite sure what's going to happen.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah? Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But I'm willing to find out, you know, like the gothic chest I'm working on now.
nick : Mm -hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like I'm going to send this to Sean after spending 200 hours on it.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And he's going to paint all over the motherfucker. He might stripe it. He might put. ah portraits in the windows of the gothic chest of like he talked about a reaper like dragging a king off to his death there he talked about so many different possibilities and i'm i'm i'm here for it i'm just so curious what's going to come of it and he already has one of my a big piece of wall art that he that i don't know what he's going to do and i'm so like on pins and needles to see what he decides
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Netflix's Erik C: Okay. Ken, I'll i'll say... As far as like the reveal of a thing that you've collaborated really hard on.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Netflix's Erik C: goes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hm?
Netflix's Erik C: the the biggest payoff and nick i'm curious to hear your thoughts on this To this point, the biggest payoff. probably in my professional career was the show. where ah we...
Netflix's Erik C: We did the thing. It took. three months to film the show it was a year before it came out we got the the first episode
nick : yes
Netflix's Erik C: a few weeks before it hit Netflix. I don't remember the exact date. um But Nick. and paige and adair were all in l la so they like rented a theater and like got to watch it on the big screen and i was here i watched it on my couch um and we facetimed before We hit play at the same time and then we watched it and then we FaceTimed again.
Netflix's Erik C: And. We all like literally I picked up with the phone and they were all just like. And I was like. And it was like, holy shit. The show's...
Netflix's Erik C: Kinda good. Like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
nick : Kind of good.
Netflix's Erik C: It's a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Netflix's Erik C: You know? So it was one of those moments of like. It's been, it was such a long process. We we started the process, got furloughed for 18 months, filmed it for three months, had to wait another year to see the thing.
nick : Nice.
Netflix's Erik C: and um by the end of it to see the payoff and and all four of us just being like That was a That was a fun fucking ride, wasn't it? Like it was, it was.
Netflix's Erik C: It was one of the biggest joys of my professional career, I think.
nick : Same.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do think the highs are higher when you collaborate because there's an unexpected there's an unexpected element to it.
Netflix's Erik C: I think so.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And. there's like There's togetherness like it's it's not only the art, but it's the art magnified times two because of the. the social relationship, like humans are social. All the data, like we're over this this this question of whether, you know, the importance of of relationships, right? le This is stupid at this point. All the data says how important.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: humans are to one another and relationships are. All those people who are like, oh, I only like my dog and I hate all people. like Bullshit.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're deluding yourself. I'm sorry if you have that t -shirt, no offense. But you're you're fucking messing. like It's just not true. We all need. relationships and the quality the harvard study of adult development development again that The - the -
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: the number one strongest predictor of of contentedness and self -reported happiness is close personal personal interactions. And so though that is a piece of collaborating, you know i've heard I've heard the opinion, well, when I collaborate, it dilutes my ideas. And sure, you do have to like kind of...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Good. In some ways, you can't. have it your way all the time when you collaborate. So maybe does it bastardize or change your ideas or dilute your ideas? Maybe. a little bit, maybe you have to.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: back off maybe a thought you had and and and and let it change. But the payoff is huge. So all of you out there who are thinking about collaborating.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I would say. You should, you should try. So Eric. Put you on the hot seat. Why? Don't. people collaborate more than they do. What holds us back from collaboration?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What is the biggest barrier?
Netflix's Erik C: Oh, Jesus Christ.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, also you too.
nick : Hmm.
Netflix's Erik C: That's ah like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, Nick. Nick, but bail him out, Nick. what What holds us back from collaborating?
Netflix's Erik C: Woof.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why don't we? What are what are the barriers?
nick : It's the ego. right it's it just it is
Netflix's Erik C: oh
nick : our Our belief that that our vision, whether it's vision of the world, vision of our art, vision... of just how we want to do the process.
nick : We let that get in the way. of making something potentially better than what we are capable of doing it on our own. And... It's the the plant. education for me.
nick : has been so humbling because I did not start. in this space, right? like i I didn't pick up you know a shovel and you know some plants until I was... 22 years old.
nick : And, you know... From there, you' you're constantly humbled because. Now you're you're starting from ground zero. right I was an athlete in college and you build your whole identity around like, this is what I'm good at and I'm great at this and I got good grades and I'm going to... did this great job. and you do something that you suck at.
nick : Right? And. If you want to collaborate and get better. You have to you know check that eagle out the door and be like, hey, yeah, I suck at it now, but I'm going to learn. And you can learn so much from collaborating, whether it's with mentors or peers or people you are mentoring.
nick : and There's a whole lot to be learned from that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, what would you say to people who are like, I don't know how to start a collaboration. I don't know how to reach out to people. It's just not natural to me. Like, how do you find these people who are like, yes, let's collaborate?
nick : Just. i mean this is the old former sales guy in me but just start sending messages to people Right. If you like somebody. Send them a message. Hey, hey. I think what you're doing is awesome.
nick : Right? I would love to work together on something. Worst thing they do is leave you on read.
Netflix's Erik C: the
nick : Right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and
nick : That's worse than a no, in my opinion. when you get When you get left on read.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and ah
nick : Right. Like collaborating is no different than like dating. Like.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah i was gonna say that 100 you're just picking girls up at a bar at that point yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did! Good!
nick : you're You're throwing it out there. yeah I mean just like hey you want to come back to my house and build some stuff together like
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah you like, hey, I think you look awesome.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Netflix's Erik C: I would love to collaborate on some stuff.
nick : Yeah, it's It's funny like funny that we're on this podcast because I've i've been exploring a a podcast of my own.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. ah
nick : um with one of my plant buddies. And. We had never met in person before. Never.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : And I just sent him a DM and i go, Hey dude, like. You know, I think you're awesome. like You ever want to talk about plants? Weekly.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah
nick : With microphones? And he goes. Are you asking me out on a date?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah You're like, yes.
nick : but I was like yeah basically that's the male equivalent.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: eric Eric, do you have any advice?
Netflix's Erik C: So, okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: would -be collaborators?
Netflix's Erik C: I my initial Nick, when you said ego, my initial. thought was to push back against you but i i don't think this is a rebuttal i think I think the answer is the same, but from a different vantage point.
Netflix's Erik C: I think so many people
nick : Hmm.
Netflix's Erik C: There's definitely, obviously, there's definitely the people who are like, my idea is the best and I don't want it to be tainted by somebody else's thought. But I think there's also a huge swath of people.
Netflix's Erik C: who their ego is ah telling them. The opposite. I'm not good enough to collaborate.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. I'm not good enough. Yeah, insecurity.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: I'm afraid that if I collaborate with somebody that i am I'm going to reveal that I don't know as much as I want to pretend that I know. And.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: um That I think holds people back.
nick : Mm.
Netflix's Erik C: equally as much, if not more. Because there's I feel like there's more people who are insecure about what they know than there are who are like, I'm a god and you should shut the fuck up and let me work. and know
nick : I'm glad you said that, Eric, because i I'm suffering from that right now.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : um because Not from like a collaborating with ah a peer, but actually a client.
Netflix's Erik C: Interesting.
Netflix's Erik C: Mmm.
nick : Like a very... you know very famous person their team reached out. about a very specific project
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : And my first... inclination was I I can't do this
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : I don't think I'm capable of doing this. It was the fear. of being like, I don't know. I don't know if I know enough.
Netflix's Erik C: I don't know enough, yeah Yeah.
nick : To do this, right And I'm going to I'm going to. push myself a little bit at least have the conversation right and just see if it makes sense i'm gonna fit but
Netflix's Erik C: Atta boy. Yep. Yeah.
nick : you know You hit the nail on the head, right? The ego comes with both. positive and negative right and in this case it's the fear
Netflix's Erik C: 100%. it's It's the fear of like, well, if I do this thing, I'm going to be exposed that I'm a fucking fraud. you know like i don't i don't actually know what i'm doing
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or fear of rejection. If I reach out and no one says yes.
nick : Mm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: they i must that's a judgment that i'm not i'm not provocative enough i'm not good enough my work's not compelling enough
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah. it's ah it's ah It's hard either way, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right?
Netflix's Erik C: You know? You know who... um Doesn't have an ego, though.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: forever
Netflix's Erik C: Our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle. Nick, you haven't been proselytized into the church of WTV Woodworking. Have you?
nick : i don't I can't claim to.
Netflix's Erik C: not Not yet. Not yet.
nick : No, not yet.
Netflix's Erik C: WTB Woodworking is a mom and pop shop in Huntington Valley. Pennsylvania, about 40 minutes north of Philly. ah Bill is a hell of a man.
Netflix's Erik C: um he's been sponsored your first sponsor of this show still a sponsor of this show all all like In spite of his better judgment, he's still a sponsor of this fucking show.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah First.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and spite Because his middle name's not fucking Teresa, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: And... No, but people do refer to him as Billiam Teresa Burkle now, though. So let me tell you a little something about WTB. First of all, they have ah a new giveaway going on, a Mephel cordless plunge cut saw.
Netflix's Erik C: Um, MT5518MB. I don't know what any of the fuck that means. That's all that's going on until September 18th. So.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Terrible.
Netflix's Erik C: So you should go sign up for that. Who doesn't want to fucking... So. Just fucking sign up for, all you got to do is go to the the website and click, literally, listen, I'm going to walk you through this, motherfuckers.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah eric what's the what What's the website?
Netflix's Erik C: You go to the website, wtbwoodworking .com.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: Okay. You go to more.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Netflix's Erik C: And there's a tab that says giveaway. And all you got to do is put your fucking info in there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm doing it right now
Netflix's Erik C: Okay? God damn right you are.
nick : I just, I just did it.
Netflix's Erik C: How did you? Okay. Hey, hold on. Hold on. How did you hear about this giveaway? If you don't click Woodworking is Bullshit podcast. We're not friends anymore. Okay. This is how we do it.
nick : Wow.
Netflix's Erik C: I'm going to do this right. Actually, live feed. I'm going to do this right now too. Eric. Teresa. Curtis.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: MT5518M B1 Cordless Plunge Cut Saw Kit.
Netflix's Erik C: Goddamn right. How did you find about this podcast?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Amen.
Netflix's Erik C: Instagram username? That's private. You don't need to know that. And then I'm going to hit enter. There we go.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm doing I just signed up.
Netflix's Erik C: Submitted. go Go support WTB Woodworking.
nick : Wow.
Netflix's Erik C: They are ah phenomenal. Bill is the man. Love him to pieces. And if you ever go into their shop in person, ask him for a gentle caress and he will abide legally.
Netflix's Erik C: Legally speaking. Um, Nick, you've you've used epoxy before.
nick : I have. for our table.
Netflix's Erik C: You have. yeah And you know who gave us that epoxy for our table?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Does he?
nick : Let me guess. It was. Total Boat.
Netflix's Erik C: Total bow, baby!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah.
Netflix's Erik C: Total boat. Another sponsor of this week's episode. We used, if I recall correctly, the... um ah tabletop epoxy.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : I think so yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, and we did a couple of coats of that, and that that table has been... I mean, what's it three, four years now?
nick : Four years old, yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Four years old now, and you you have flooded that thing with water.
nick : Filled it completely. multiple times.
Netflix's Erik C: Mmm.
nick : Soil everything I just watered it today No leaks. It works great. And my plants are thriving in it.
Netflix's Erik C: What else do you need to know about Total Boat Epoxy?
nick : So.
Netflix's Erik C: Go pick yourself up some and make yourself a plant table. Do we have the, actually, do we have like. plans or anything like that anywhere?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: For the table?
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : We, I thought we made some, I mean.
Netflix's Erik C: I... I think we did.
nick : I say we, yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : uh, My plans wouldn't get wouldn't get people very far with my sketch pad.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: He means you.
Netflix's Erik C: I mean... Is it? In fairness, if you're interested in making one and covering it in Total Boat epoxy, it's basically a river table and then just make a bucket underneath.
Netflix's Erik C: That's all. Like, that's all that's all we did.
nick : Oh, no, not just a bucket. and A slightly pitched bucket.
Netflix's Erik C: A slightly pitched bucket.
nick : With ah with a drainage hole and a plug. at the bottom
Netflix's Erik C: It does. It does.
nick : Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, nice job.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah Thank you. No, like you we got it done. We got it. You know, what's interesting. This is bonus content for the total boat read. Um, we. built that like nick just dm'd a guy with a wood shop In LA.
Netflix's Erik C: And he was like, hey.
nick : Shout out Angel City Lumber.
Netflix's Erik C: Angels and end. The second show that I did with Nancy Birtwistle was in LA and we went and used Angel City again to to source a bunch of material because they were that fucking amazing.
nick : They are unbelievable. This isn't even an ad. This is just the truth.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah, this is just, this is Angel City's getting a bonus ad in this ad read.
nick : So. Bye. I had messaged them because what they do is they take. fallen trees, salvaged trees in the urban environment in l LA.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Urban salvage.
nick : Yeah, which is a major, major source of wood for some of these
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : neighborhoods. And. They basically mill it. And they have their whole workshop there. I had never met their team. Never met their team. I had invited them to a couple events I was hosting. Oh, we'd love to come. Couldn't make it. And I said, hey.
nick : You don't know. You've never met me in person. Can I use your shop at like...
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : 10 PM at night. in like downtown L .A. And they're like, oh yeah, here are the keys.
Netflix's Erik C: We did it like legitimately. they We showed up at, I think it was eight. And we worked until like midnight.
nick : eight Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Like we did two four hour days.
nick : It's both nights, yeah. Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: And they were just like, yeah. It's fine. Like just like lock up when you're done.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What on earth?
nick : Go ahead.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, how is this?
Netflix's Erik C: Angel City. are a bunch of angels. That's who they are.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, awesome.
nick : They're unbelievable.
Netflix's Erik C: They're amazing.
nick : Great people.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. Grape.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's very, that's honestly very humanizing to hear people trust instead of yeah all the red tape.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's awesome.
nick : Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: That's also that's also k Nick's specialty. um But what i what I did here is the way that they got the salvaged trees from the location to ah the the sawmill.
Netflix's Erik C: um Gorillas, actually.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I knew you were going to say that.
Netflix's Erik C: Interestingly enough.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I knew it. You son of a bitch. I'm like, he's going to say gorillas carried it.
Netflix's Erik C: So... It's I mean.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And yeah I was right.
Netflix's Erik C: Listen, sometimes you got to employ. Listen, gorillas need a working wage. Okay. They're just trying to make a fucking living too. And the thing that I love about Gorilla Glue is that they employ fair wage gorillas.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, listen.
Netflix's Erik C: to make their products. and a hell of a product, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was certain I was like beyond certain that we were going to get canceled for these ad raids.
Netflix's Erik C: That...
Netflix's Erik C: You think...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: from Gorilla Glue.
Netflix's Erik C: they didn't They didn't cancel us for saying that their product was made of gorillas.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like
Netflix's Erik C: You think they're going to cancel us for saying?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You you said of gorillas by gorillas bitch so first of all wait
Netflix's Erik C: so Say it.
nick : You said it was made of gorillas?
Netflix's Erik C: Of gorillas, for gorillas, by gorillas.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No!
Netflix's Erik C: like i don't know what else
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: four gorillas
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you're calling the audience girls okay anyway anyway i mean we are primates
Netflix's Erik C: You know? This life. So anyway.
nick : These are the best ad reads I've ever heard.
Netflix's Erik C: So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We are primates, but but listen Eric Recently, someone sent me a Gorilla Glue ad to my my DMs.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And it was a gorilla. like holding the glue bottle and i thought to myself wait wait wait wait wait I thought to myself I'm like, this has got to be AI.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This is not...
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They are not using...
Netflix's Erik C: but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They are not...
Netflix's Erik C: You're not training gorillas, Paul.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: they are not using gorillas in their ad marketing campaign so i googled it and sure as shit gorilla glue is using gorillas in their marketing campaign so i'm like you know what i thought we were going to get canceled but maybe we're going to be the best ad read they've ever had
Netflix's Erik C: Amazing. ah Amazing. let me Nick, let me tell you something about Gorilla Glue. Gorilla Wood Glue has less water, more glue, and a stronger bond than the other guys. It dries a natural color, so it has less yellowing too. It cleans up with water, is non -foaming, and that bond...
Netflix's Erik C: It's actually stronger than gorillas. It's true, Sam. True statement.
nick : You know, I actually use all Gorilla products. Funny enough.
Netflix's Erik C: Thank you. Thank you.
nick : i do I like their their tape. Excellent. The Gorilla Tape, very good.
Netflix's Erik C: Okay. Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I...
Netflix's Erik C: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I didn't know they had tape, if I'm being honest.
Netflix's Erik C: Good stuff. Oh, they do
nick : the tape the tape The tape is not made of gorillas.
Netflix's Erik C: They do. Yeah, fuck ducks.
nick : It's made by... chimpanzees. Rivals.
Netflix's Erik C: Wow.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
nick : Yep, I know.
Netflix's Erik C: Who knew?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That doesn't sound okay.
nick : I know. Hey. They're... They're probably all endangered anyway.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh. Of chimpanzees for chimpanzees by chimpanzees.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha!
nick : so no No, no, no. Four gorillas. Made. Of chimpanzees.
Netflix's Erik C: Wow.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye, gorillas.
nick : Bye, gorillas.
Netflix's Erik C: This is so they're predators is what we're learning.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Got it. Got it
nick : Yes. Because. They would run out of. One of the gorillas for the glue. So they had to.
Netflix's Erik C: Okay.
nick : Use other. primates.
Netflix's Erik C: so nick what do you think they're using for the filler
nick : We're not allowed to talk about that.
Netflix's Erik C: so That's it.
nick : That's under NDA.
Netflix's Erik C: it's a trade secret paul Paul, what's your experience with the filler real quick?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: nda Okay.
nick : Yeah, trade secret.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah.
Netflix's Erik C: Inform the people, please.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, it's... it's
Netflix's Erik C: like Contractually speaking, you do have to tell people about the wood filler.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it's really
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Eric. I try not to use wood filler because I'm not a hack like you.
Netflix's Erik C: that's not That's not what they're paying us to say, buddy. What are we doing?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um When I do need to fill a hole. Because...
nick : Oh no.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because I used a nail instead of... Woodworking techniques. I...
Netflix's Erik C: So you can get yours at GorillaTuff .com slash Woodworking is BS. That's GorillaDump .com slash woodworking is BS. And thanks to Gorilla. glue for sponsoring this week's episode.
nick : Side note, no gorilla product is made with any endangered animal of any kind.
Netflix's Erik C: That part.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No girls were harmed in this ad read.
Netflix's Erik C: That part.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just Paul.
Netflix's Erik C: Okay, what else you got, buddy boy?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh no!
nick : All right.
Netflix's Erik C: That's the one that's the one they're going to cancel this contract for.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: no Okay. Oh no.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah You jerks. It was so innocent and you fucking you two assholes ruined it. Okay.
nick : I think that's the most authentic ad read.
Netflix's Erik C: this
nick : they've ever gotten.
Netflix's Erik C: This is what I'm saying.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Netflix's Erik C: If they don't want us, then what are we even doing?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: This is who we are.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh god okay okay uh regroup uh hi everyone this is woodworking is bullshit uh you know people have been writing to me about our ad reads and they love them and yeah I kind of do too. um All right, enough of that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. So we. we have a tendency to jump the sh shark here we we go like deep into an issue and we don't talk about like the kind of the entry point or the simple things so nick You love plants.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You. Do you like you have a landscaping company? you've a appearedered on You've appeared on ah multiple shows. I assume both in both instances about landscaping.
Netflix's Erik C: Three.
nick : ah The first one was The Big Flower Fight, which was like a flower design sculpture show.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : A little different, but...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
nick : It's planty.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. So. Everything, you know, and as you said, you started you the first time you did plants was in your early 20s.
nick : Yes. right after college.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so you look. You look like you're about 24 now, so you've been at it for about two two years.
Netflix's Erik C: This motherfucker. He's gonna look 18 until he dies.
nick : You know, I I should have grown the beard out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jesus, Nick.
nick : I should have known. But I just, I get beard insecurity when I'm around Eric.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So.
nick : So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: well everyone does
nick : i I try to just keep it clean shaven.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, so ah you know i i I listened to your TED Talk. For those that don't know, Nick gave a wonderful TED Talk. You can Google it about the importance of plants, about plants in our home. so Nick, I have so many questions because I think...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All of us have plants in our home or most of us have plants in our home or plants outside our home. So that brings up two questions to me. Why are plants important? Are they important?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And how do we make... How do we make? Our houses look good using plants. What do we do wrong? What do we do right? Help us.
nick : Mm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: in this topic.
nick : Mm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like I don't even know what the entry point is. It's so big. Can you help us?
nick : Yeah. It's, well... I think. that Not I think, I know. that plants are important
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How do you know that?
nick : How dare you? How dare you insinuate that they are not important?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, I'm a scientist, Nick. I'm a scientist. I assume nothing.
nick : That's true.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How do you know?
nick : Well, well
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How do you know they're important?
nick : plants Plants are. are you know from from a climate perspective one of our best
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh that's true.
nick : best natural resources to to fight climate change, absorb CO2, produce oxygen, provide us food.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true. Mm hmm.
nick : provide a shelter, you guys wouldn't have a job.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : without plants.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true. That's true
nick : You guys are out here being, you know, metal workers or stone masons or some shit like that.
Netflix's Erik C: That part. That part.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah ah
nick : if it wasn't for plants. um and And I think that, you know, above anything else, right? it Plants are... a lesson in patience.
nick : right For anyone who's getting involved in in plants for the first time, be it houseplants, growing food, landscaping, what have you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
nick : right Plants are are slow. And. for me that was like the most frustrating aspect of getting into this because I was such an instant gratification person, right?
nick : you know
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um
nick : Hey. this you know This generation of social media users, everything is quick, quick, quick. right? And plants are like, all right, yeah you put me in the ground, you got to wait. And you've got to trust the process. and What I love most. about that process is the fact that Growth occurs without you seeing it.
nick : And it's a lesson in many things. And what I mean by that is you could water that plant every single day and not see anything happen.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : Right? It's a trust. that what's happening below the surface in the soil
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
nick : You're establishing roots that are going to allow you to bloom later. The bloom is the least important part Right It's what you're doing. to foster and cultivate an environment in that soil.
nick : that will allow you to reach that point All right. That's the beauty. That's the beauty. And I tell people all the time, you know whether they're they're a plant person or not, it's like, hey, if your environment is not conducive.
nick : If your environment doesn't have the right things, you're not going to be able to put out roots, you're not going to be able to bloom.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick.
nick : And... it
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you're You're saying it's not the destination, it's the journey. That's that's what I'm hearing.
nick : Truly.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : Truly.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : it's it's really the nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium in the soil, but the journey works too, right? I mean, these these are are critical things that I had to learn. as i got into this and then what i realized was i was like okay I care about this.
nick : thing that I'm growing. And I'd come into the office. I worked for IBM Watson, one of the original AIs. back in the day.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I remember that.
nick : And I'd come into the office and I'd bring my tomatoes and cucumbers and zucchini I was growing and I'd be like, hey guys, look at this. And they're like. what What are you doing? Like, this is... Kind of weird.
nick : And. I realized at that point, I was like, ah. Maybe I'm in the wrong place. all right maybe
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But actually, Nick, I'm surprised at that reaction because... I brought all the bounty from my vegetable garden into my, which is all. PhD level chemical engineers and biologists.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And the - The office went nuts for the vegetables.
nick : Some people really love it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They're like, I've never tasted anything like this. I leave it in the kitchen. we It was all a stir. like I... it It absolutely lit up the place with excitement.
nick : it It can have that reaction too. especially when people don't realize like. the difference in flavor of tasting something the literal literal fruits of your labor right like it It is just so profound.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : and when i experienced that i was like oh my god everyone needs to know about this I need to get into this. And then. The shift for me happened when I moved. I was living at home in White Plains, New York.
nick : just south of where Eric grew up, about 30 minutes away.
Netflix's Erik C: Damn right, buddy boy.
nick : um And I moved to New York City. No more garden. No more green space.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
nick : And I panicked. And I was like. Fuck, what do I do? so i bought 120 houseplants and was like this is going to make me feel better
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: 120 houseplants?
Netflix's Erik C: Dude, his house, like he, when I walked into his house, whether like. l la or or wherever he was living like malt like it was like georgia the jungle Like, it was like, how how are we getting from the upstairs to the downstairs?
nick : A lot of plants.
Netflix's Erik C: We're swinging on a fucking vine, obviously.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like gorillas.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah Yeah.
nick : this This background does not represent the true scope of my plant -dom right now.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : The plants are all upstairs.
Netflix's Erik C: how How many do you have in the house now?
nick : So it's funny with, we just bought a 10 acre homestead two years ago in Michigan. with the homestead, which has a greenhouse, by the way. um a lot less plants are actually in the house than they used to be.
Netflix's Erik C: Because you got the outside space.
nick : Because i can so I can space them out.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : I could put them in the greenhouse. I probably still have close to 120 houseplants. They're just all in different places now.
Netflix's Erik C: am Mmm. Okay.
nick : Um, so So that has been...
Netflix's Erik C: I have five, though, so I feel like you're proud of me for keeping the ones that you gave me alive.
nick : ah
nick : You did. And when you did those window boxes, I was very proud as well.
Netflix's Erik C: Damn right. Thank you. Appreciate you.
nick : That was very nice.
Netflix's Erik C: And I've got like four or five out on the patio now. Like I'm thriving, baby.
nick : Oh, you didn't send me those.
Netflix's Erik C: I'm green and lean, you know?
nick : you You got to send me those. You got to send me those. So so to your to your question, right? Plants are important because they foster a relationship that you're not gonna get other places. And.
nick : my My philosophy is, and my...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wait wait Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't get to just gloss over that sentence. Say that again. They foster relationships that you don't get in other places.
nick : the that you you you can't get other places.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What does that mean?
nick : how many how many times How many times can you have a relationship with something and it doesn't respond back to you? It doesn't tell you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: My wife.
nick : Ah!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Every day! ah
Netflix's Erik C: And... That's been today's episode, friends.
nick : Oh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what the fuck you talking about bro that's like a monday okay
nick : No, but i I would contest. I would contest that unless your wife is a fiddle leaf fig. There was some. response. be it body language.
nick : or something.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What?
nick : May not have been the one you wanted.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well... I mean, clearly you haven't been married for 17 years, bro.
nick : But there was something.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just give that fiddly fig some time.
nick : so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
nick : oh Something to look forward to. I guess.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, wait. Wait, wait, wait.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but but Let's come back to that. what say Say that again. i that I was struck by that sentence.
nick : so so So with plants, right? you know I'm about to be a dad in two months, right? When that baby needs something, it's going to cry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : And it's going to happen quickly. if my plant is slowly dying it's going to take a little bit before i notice something's wrong
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : You know? And it's not immediate. so So there's this this trust you have to have that you're doing it right. But also, and I talk about it in my book, this idea.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : this concept of mindful neglect. Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mmm.
nick : Where it's. I'm going to check in with you. daily. I don't have to do anything necessarily, but I'm going to check in and give you the space that you need. Because plants have been around a lot lot longer, a whole lot longer than we've...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
nick : been around.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
nick : So they know what to do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
nick : We need to trust that what we're doing is right. And if a plant's not immediately... needing something, we just kind of let it be. And that works with. many humans. as well right it's like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
nick : hey, not every human needs the constant helicopter attention. you know sometimes they need to drive to work on their own at five in the morning right
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, did you just say, Eric, you dick?
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, did you...
Netflix's Erik C: How did I take a stray there? What are we were talking about fucking plants?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i You did, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: laughter
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You just took it straight to the leg. Um,
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're basically saying the lessons from plants are like lessons for relationships in life. Is that? Sort of what you just said.
nick : Absolutely. Absolutely.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : um you know the The birds and the bees is is essentially you know about pollination, right? like it's It's not much different. And I think that for me being able to.
nick : as someone who had a hard time focusing. right I can calm down and... and meditate. per se. in the garden for an hour But I can't sit down and be still for five minutes, listen to some guy say, oh, and all that shit, right? Like, that's not me.
nick : Um,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean I tried it. It's pretty. cool when it works.
nick : It's cool when it works, but I get it a different way.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : And it's just so it's just so much.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So... Okay.
nick : it's so elucidating to to have those moments of clarity when you're in the garden and around plants because they just slow you down in ah and a really beautiful way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Can you, yes, I want you to elaborate on that last sentence. So, because I was just about to ask you, are plants important for our emotional and psychological? and um Wellbeing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is there Is there any evidence of that in any research?
nick : Oh yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And you were kind of giving your anecdotal version of that, but I want you to go a little bit deeper into what plants do for us emotionally.
nick : Well, emotionally, right, cortisol levels drop. when there's plants in the room. Cortisol levels drop when there's a window in a room.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : Cortisol levels drop when there's a picture of a plant in a room.
Netflix's Erik C: huh
nick : Hospital stays. Decrease in rooms with a window looking out over apart. That's why many hospitals have some kind of atrium or courtyard where they can take patients.
Netflix's Erik C: Really?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wow I didn't know this.
nick : Japanese forest bathing. one of the coolest concepts. doctors actually prescribe. time in nature.
Netflix's Erik C: Forest bathing?
nick : Guys. Forest bathing.
Netflix's Erik C: That sounds like a Benjamin Franklin thing to just get some honeys naked. Like, you know?
nick : He was a dog.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
nick : He was an animal.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah an air bath on the balcony sure sure sure sure sure
nick : Yeah. but But there's also some newer research. and you know Take it with a grain of salt, right? but like The VOCs, the volatile organic compounds that trees emit to communicate are actually beneficial to us.
nick : in some ways.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
Netflix's Erik C: seven
nick : Um, I'm a little skeptical about that, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, we'll see about that. i have Me too. Me too.
nick : delve into that research fully.
Netflix's Erik C: I'm not smart enough to get into this conversation, so carry on.
nick : But what' what what we note we know that trees communicate like this with their kin.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Shut up.
nick : And I think that, you know. it would be it would be It would be naive of us to assume that we are not positively impacted by nature when we have spent 99 .999 % of our development.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
nick : in nature.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In nature. Yeah.
nick : Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Very good.
nick : and then And then we said, you know what?
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : What if we forget this whole nature thing? How about the box? Let's build the box and live in the box instead.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So... nick So Nick, what do you feel about like sex in the city, urban night, concrete jungle?
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's, you know. ah Like, you know, you know you know that that I meant the show. I don't know if you've watched it.
nick : I was gonna say, I was gonna say I didn't think Mr. Big was right for her. I was an Aiden guy all the way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, okay, okay. Okay, I thought you you shot me a look that's like, Paul, what are you talking about?
nick : But, you know, we could keep it about plants.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, but like...
nick : She was toxic.
Netflix's Erik C: That's...
nick : Carrie was toxic, okay?
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: OK, but that whole idea of like urban lifestyle, like that's where it's at. That's the pinnacle of life to me was ah it seemed I'm just going to I'm just going to put it out there seemed misguided.
nick : Oh God.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: My wife, when we first started dating, she's like, oh, it'd be so cool to live in the middle of the city and you could do this and you could do that. And I'm like, yeah, but there's no. green space there's no lawn there's no trees there's no flowers there's no vegetable garden there's no beehive we have b2b hives we have chickens i'm like there's none of that like doesn't that and as we've been together and she's gotten older She's like, oh, there's no fucking way I would live in the middle of the city.
nick : No.
nick : Yeah.
nick : I would argue that. Because I think about this a lot. I would argue that the... Biggest failure. in America when it comes to happiness and community.
nick : was... the expansion of suburban sprawl and non -walkable cities. um I think that was probably the tipping point where we could have looked at Europe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mmm.
nick : and said, look how Europe does it, where these little... Smaller cities, public transportation is very green.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Make it more green. Hmm.
nick : Right. and allowed for more interaction. Instead, our expansion was so fast. That we said, all right highways and strip malls.
nick : and then nature and then a city. We separated them out way too much. And you and I, I've traveled to a bunch of different places now throughout the country and and abroad.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
nick : And. the places where people are happiest are the ones where there's nature. I mean, you look at blue zones. right and these are you know, areas of the.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What are blue zones?
nick : Blue zones are areas of the world where the population consistently lives to be well over 100 at rates not seen in other places.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Oh yeah, yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : Sardinia. uh in italy well -known blue zone okinawa japan many of these
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
nick : ah areas have have things in common. um One being
Netflix's Erik C: Fish.
nick : uh yep there's like a lot of fish and plant -based diets a lot of gardening. and a lot of community.
Netflix's Erik C: a
nick : And. If you're not able to get those things, people talk about being in community with but humans. You got to be in community with nature. All right, that's my philosophy. and having left two major cities in New York and l LA.
nick : Um, you know, I sacrifice some things here in Michigan, right? I live in the woods. But I wake up every morning and the air is fresh. and i hear the birds chirping And i I think it's better for my health long term.
nick : to have an environment like this as long as I can still maintain my human community in conjunction with that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's a great great way to end that. So. Go ahead, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: No go ahead.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because I have about a billion questions for Nick. So you better get your question in, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: Listen, I know. na I just fucking call him when I have a question for him. We don't have to cover a cover it on the pod, you know? this
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. so Nick what are most Americans doing wrong?
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just be bold. What are we doing wrong? Just tell us.
nick : Too much lawn. Lawn's stupid. lawn The lawn.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but because it Because it's a monoculture of something that isn't really.
nick : the The lawn is the largest monocultured crop. in the world. In the United States, it's about 45 million acres, roughly the size of Colorado.
nick : It serves zero purpose. It sucks up water. and it uses a ton of pesticides in many cases to make it look the way it does. um And all of it. can be attributed to ah Renaissance paintings.
nick : of of lords.
Netflix's Erik C: Really?
nick : properties yep because they wanted to paint
Netflix's Erik C: Huh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Really?
nick : the landscapes. And the wealth was was demonstrated. by these wealthy lords who were able to say, look at all this land. I don't even need to grow food on it.
Netflix's Erik C: oh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
nick : And it became a status symbol. Then you bring it over here. And now it's the dad standing out on his lawn, looking over at his neighbor in competition. It's become this.
nick : this masculine thing. That is all about status right How do my lines look? How crisp is my grass?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The white picket fence, the lawn with the lines mowed into it.
nick : Yes. Yes. functionally. rarely ever used especially front front yards right if you if you want to have grass And you don't want to treat it with chemicals or add excess water to it. And you want to play with your dogs and your kids.
nick : Go for it. That is totally fine. Right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's me. i I refuse pesticide treatment in any form.
nick : Yeah. Perfect. That's the way to do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : If you have a lawn that you just stare at and you don't use there's no point There's no point. Like how many people do you see outside hanging out in their front lawns? these days. Not very many. in most places.
Netflix's Erik C: Not a lot of them.
nick : Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Nick, is there, i'm I'm gonna tell you right now, I'm... um actively creating a t -shirt we haven't done that in a while that says lawns are stupid is there a charity that we can yeah yeah no it's already in the works
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
nick : Are you really?
nick : Fantastic.
Netflix's Erik C: I'm hitting publish in the next 60 seconds. Is there a charity that we can donate to that?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Netflix's Erik C: Like all the proceeds from that, like we can. Like, what's what's a good... charity that we can raise money for.
nick : Oh. Oh man, there's so many there's so many good charities to raise money for.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: I don't want to profit off of your idea is really what it is, but.
nick : You know, that's okay. we'll we'll find it We'll find a good place to send that money to.
Netflix's Erik C: Okay, we willll we'll we'll donate the money. Lawns are stupid. That's going to be on the Woodworking is Bullshit ah store on Bonfire.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wait, can can we can we be more specific why lawns are stupid? Is it the pesticide use and the water consumption and the nitrogen from fertilizers?
nick : it's It's not just what they consume, but it's what they aren't. right what what we want instead habitat right actually it's funny just came in the mail
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah. habitats. Hmm. Yeah.
nick : Oh, let me just get it for you. because this is I'm very excited about this
Netflix's Erik C: This is great audio for an audio format, buddy.
nick : Oh yes.
nick : National.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh, hell - Hell yeah!
nick : certified. wildlife habitat.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, you got a sign for your house that says that.
nick : Not just a sign. It's a certification.
Netflix's Erik C: so
nick : It's a major award!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, that's what I meant. I meant certification.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When I said sign, yeah I meant certification.
nick : Well, technically, technically, they don't they don't really like check. to see if you do all the things.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, so you're full of shit and you gotta...
nick : but So. So. I realize.
Netflix's Erik C: He got it. He got it on Etsy. Let's be honest.
nick : So. So I've been. I've been transforming my my yard with native plants and...
Netflix's Erik C: a
nick : pollinator specific things i built a pond like all these different things right And I'm like, I'm going to finally get the certification. And I go to do it. And it's just like. Yeah, you got it.
nick : Like they don't send someone out. They don't ask for evidence. They just sell the sign.
Netflix's Erik C: They're like, you so you sound like you care.
nick : Which is great. Right.
Netflix's Erik C: That's cool.
nick : we like We support the National Wildlife Federation, but... ah Yeah, the the native plants, I think, is the biggest thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
nick : and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Got it. So what do we do?
nick : And I.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: in so Nick, help us in simple terms. What do we do instead of a lawn?
nick : Man, okay, so so not instead. with. Right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : I'm not telling you to get rid of the whole thing right especially if you're using it so My 10 acre property, I have about four acres that is cleared of forest. um I've been slowly removing lawn and planting different things.
nick : Um,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : I planted a slew of native plants around my edible garden. I planted an orchard. I have planted ah a flowering, or like a cut flower garden. um for for my wife outside our kitchen.
nick : um And then in areas where I don't frequent, I let the grass grow. I let it go high. I let... uh native species you know kind of thrive on their own there i sprinkle wildflower seed in the fall um and And I'll tell you what. There there are a few places that have more.
nick : fireflies than our property. at this time of year.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, I bet that's, a man I remember that when I was a kid.
nick : Like you walk outside. Alright.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm -hmm.
nick : It's magical, and they're disappearing. And I go outside now and there are... hundreds. lighting up throughout the woods. and i know it's because of what i've done right because there was no landscaping here at all um And I go out in my garden and I see the swallowtail butterflies because I planted fennel. I see the monarchs because I planted milkweed, right?
nick : um I see bird species and other native insects and wildlife.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. All right.
nick : making their way here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks.
nick : It's amazing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, this sounds phenomenal. And what I also think at the same time is. I don't have this knowledge base. So what, like, I don't, and if i like, I think the majority of listeners don't have the knowledge base that this attracts that, or this grows well in this kind of like. How do we start? Can you give us like an easy way to start?
nick : I mean, follow Farmer Nick, duh.
Netflix's Erik C: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
nick : No, it's... In all seriousness, I came from you know ground zero too, right? like I didn't know anything about any of this. The best way that I learned was I would talk to nursery growers.
nick : Just go to your local nursery.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : right and and there are native plant nurseries out there too Native plant nurseries are becoming very, very popular.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : especially as more people want to see. these things that are Less maintenance. that are just as pretty, that bring wildlife, right? If you ask a question, hey, do you want to plant native plants? People are like, oh, maybe. But if you say, hey, do you want your kids to run around and see butterflies and fireflies? They're like, oh yeah, I do want that. So you just got to reframe the conversation. So um there's this really cool company.
nick : and that I've done some work. for Um, called Wilder. It's a wilder project. um And hold on, let me find it. native plant. project. They're fantastic. They've got a ton of great resources.
nick : for being able to to find ah native plants. And. learn from experts and do a bunch of different things that are related to habitat building.
nick : And you can get like your wilder score where you go on their website and you say, hey, here are the elements I have.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : Here's what I see. Here's what I don't see. what's my score and what can I do to improve my score?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah.
nick : So there's some really cool ah resources in there to get started.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Cool.
nick : especially if you're starting from just a regular lawn.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. What about inside the house?
nick : Oh, inside the house, just just start buying plants. anytime you see them at the grocery store at home depot steal them from your friends houses right like Whatever you got to do.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : Bring them inside because... Not everyone, A, has access to a 10 acre spot of land, right? And B, Like having something inside. that is green.
nick : and is going to just be a nice kind of respite from from the stress and chaos of you know just home life sometimes, right? Like, it's just a, it's a nice reprieve. and For me, yes, I have 10 acres, but I still have.
nick : bunch of houseplants in the house because it just makes me feel good. I like seeing them, right? and you know we've got these super high ceilings now in the house and I keep pushing the limits of what size plant I can bring in. I brought in this fan pom recently that's probably about...
nick : 12 to 14 feet tall. Um, It's great. I love looking at it. right take some adjusting right it was not happy for the first week but it's getting there
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Heh heh.
Netflix's Erik C: How does... that How does Anna feel about it?
nick : Oh, she she is on board as long as she doesn't have to take care of it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, let's speak of to about taking care. How much time do you spend in a day taking care of the plants?
nick : Not enough. Um,
Netflix's Erik C: give
nick : Are you...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, but like how much. How much do you think you should?
nick : Indoors? maybe
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, let's just.
nick : An hour. 90 minutes once like once a week
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
nick : That's it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: once a week.
nick : Once a week, an hour. Roughly. right watering some pruning some fertilizing
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think that's a lot for certain people.
nick : Check -ins.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think that could be a deal breaker.
nick : Could be.
Netflix's Erik C: that's That's a lot for a lot of people.
nick : No, no, no.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: I'll be honest, you know you know it's a deal breaker for me. Not that it's a deal breaker. The thing that I'm always most afraid of is pruning because I feel like I don't know how to do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : Bro.
Netflix's Erik C: i don't I don't know what to cut and where and when.
nick : Chop the shit in half.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bro.
Netflix's Erik C: Bruh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bruh.
nick : chop Chop it in half. That's it.
Netflix's Erik C: what the What the fuck does that mean? like you can't just sit You can't just say shit confidently and then like expect me to understand.
nick : Cut it, literally. Literally. Like they're okay. So. I'm going to combat this one hour is a lot of time. right That's one hour for like 60 plants that I have.
nick : inside.
Netflix's Erik C: Okay. Okay.
nick : right If you've got five plants, it's going to take you. Five minutes.
Netflix's Erik C: Sure. I throw them in the shower.
nick : Right?
Netflix's Erik C: I turn it on. I give them a good rainfall and and that's about it.
nick : That's more than most, right? That's pretty good. It's pretty good.
Netflix's Erik C: You know?
nick : um So to the pruning part, right? Plants are insanely resilient. And I had a plant in the greenhouse, this hibiscus plant. that was topiary right so it was kind of on a trunk and then it had a bunch of branches out. It got infested with white fly, which is just and more of a pest that I just, not a huge problem, but I just don't want to deal with it.
nick : So I literally cut it. I cut it in half. I just cut it in half
Netflix's Erik C: of
nick : And I was like, all right, we'll see what happens.
Netflix's Erik C: he's just like fuck it let's find out
nick : And it it grows back. Right?
Netflix's Erik C: Okay.
nick : I had 10 trees removed.
Netflix's Erik C: Alright.
nick : I actually just posted about trees being removed from my property. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I saw it
nick : 10 trees removed. stumps Some stumps we grinded, some stumps we didn't. stump We didn't. Guess what's happening? It's growing back. The whole thing is growing back because it's like an iceberg.
Netflix's Erik C: Son of a bitch.
nick : All the all the the stuff that's that's allowing it to survive is beneath the surface.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Hmm.
nick : now Obviously.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : you cut the three downs. likelihood it's going to make it. back that's probably small. But like. You go through the neighborhood, especially in cities. Eric, I'm sure you see absolute hack jobs.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh yeah.
nick : on some of those city trips.
Netflix's Erik C: yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
nick : Absolutely hack jobs, but what's happening? They're growing back.
Netflix's Erik C: They're growing back. They always grow back.
nick : They always go back.
Netflix's Erik C: So when in doubt, cut it out. Okay. All right.
nick : When in doubt. I thought you were going to say something else, but all right.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We've had enough of that. for So nick you you Nick, you actually...
nick : Fill the hole!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You pivoted to, oh, Jesus Christ.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You pivoted to my next question, which was. There's a lot of woodworkers who listen to this podcast. And we have to buy lumber.
nick : Mmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And there is sensitivity. with Which trees are being felled?
nick : Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Where?
Netflix's Erik C: Sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When? what you know What impact does it have? Am I, by making it into an object that will be celebrated for the next 500, you know, 100, 550, you know, whatever, whatever the timeline is, let's say.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: am i Am I honoring that tree? For the next century or two. Or should I feel bad that it was cut down in the first place? It's a very complex relationship with.
nick : Why not both?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wood. ah So... What? Why not both? Sorry. is I don't understand
nick : why why not Why not feel... bad for, it but also grateful. Right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i And i think i I think I do.
nick : Like. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So where do you shake out about the use of trees for lumber and woodworking?
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Maybe you and I can give our opinion.
nick : Yeah, I... I think that responsible forestry. is one of the most misunderstood. aspects.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : aspects
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what's Please, responsible.
nick : Uh,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Can you, for Mary's sake, define responsible?
nick : Yeah, so Yeah, so...
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : so For me, and i actually it's funny, I went to the Tree Congress last year in D .C., which is a congregation of...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Really?
nick : both environmentalists, conservationists and the forest industry as well, because they they work together.
Netflix's Erik C: so
nick : because the forest industry knows that if the practices continue in a certain way, there's not going to be enough good forest left. right?
Netflix's Erik C: Yep.
nick : So for me for me, if it's old growth, we shouldn't be touching it. right like those trees took off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : hundreds.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, sometimes thousands, right?
nick : Hundreds of years. thousands of years. If you're in the Redwoods, thousands of years, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Right, right.
nick : And. you know to be in in in the the presence of those trees, which I had the fortune fortunate opportunity to do in the spring this year. was truly unbelievable, very humbling.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You went to California, the California Redwoods.
nick : Very humbling. Yeah. I was up in the redwoods.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, have you been California Redwoods?
Netflix's Erik C: Oh, yeah. Multiple times.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Netflix's Erik C: It's it's it's like it.
nick : Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: forces you to think differently camp under a sequoia and you'll never want to like Be like, yeah, fuck it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
nick : It does.
Netflix's Erik C: Let's cut this thing down.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, yeah. So for the listeners, if you haven't been in in the Redwoods or Sequoias. It's a life. It's one of the. it's It's a life experience.
nick : Yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Please continue, Nick.
Netflix's Erik C: It is, yeah.
nick : Yeah. 100%. And I think if we can leave our old growth alone. um Obviously, you know, and you guys know better than me, but I know that farmed trees. are not always as strong.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm -hmm
nick : uh a wood as some of the the older ones right but like We have to find a way to have balance. I, I. obviously know there's certifications out there fsc certified all these different things right Do they make a huge difference? I'm sure they make some difference, right? but Um, I don't want.
nick : If you're going to build. like build responsibly. You know? and And don't just build. dumb things that are not going to be impactful or functional to people, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
nick : um I think what you guys do, it's art. and that will always have a function. It serves a function whether it's a bookshelf or an armoire or whatever it is that you're building. Right. um it's still better than plastic i hate plastic way more than than knocking down some trees um So.
nick : it's it's a tough It's a tough balance to strike, but you guys probably know even more about it than I do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric? Please where do you shake out?
Netflix's Erik C: Well, Luckily... I know Pennsylvania is one of the most sustainable states in the country as far as its forestry practices goes. um and it is pennsylvania and ohio are are largely the capitals of hardwoods ah on the east coast And so I'm very lucky to live in a ah place where I know all of my sawyers get their materials from local forestry services.
Netflix's Erik C: It's great. um We get good shit because of it. Like we at first dibs. Um, so it's, so it's easy for me to be like, yeah, you should buy sustainable shit. Um,
Netflix's Erik C: but It's. I don't know. like it If you make a thing with your hands... You are more. likely to keep that thing for the rest of your life.
nick : Agreed.
Netflix's Erik C: And so you are already cutting down on the amount of waste, whether it be lumber waste, plastic waste, whatever it is, that's that's getting tossed out and burned, thrown in a landfill. And so just the simple act of making, even if the.
Netflix's Erik C: forestry, even if the Sawyer that you got the material from wasn't the best practice. um Your s - still cutting down on your waste. And I think that's a good thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: Paul?
nick : So. oh Go ahead, Paul.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick, no, please react.
nick : I was going to say. you know Obviously we cut down trees for 4. wood and utility in that way. um Yeah. the vast majority of the rainforest is being cut down. for cattle. My stock.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm -hmm mm -hmm
nick : Right. And I think. yeah And I'm not going to get on my my vegan. ah soapbox here, right? but like you know if we're if we're concerned about you know the wood consumption and everything let's just change what you eat.
nick : um You know, if you feel that strongly about it, right?
Netflix's Erik C: the
nick : Um, And that can go for a lot of different aspects of our our natural resources and water and other things like that. So it doesn't bother me to cut down a tree here or there.
nick : as long as you're using the full depth of that tree. For example, we hit the trees that we had cut down. i'm inoculating the branches for shiitakes i'm cutting stumps for my garden
Netflix's Erik C: Hell yeah.
nick : um using the ground wood chips for pathways right nothing will go to waste
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And if you think, of Eric, you remember when Trent was on our podcast about his book Evergreen?
Netflix's Erik C: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A lot of the huge fires that we're seeing is because not enough trees were cut down, forest mismanagement.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The whole don't cut down anything is actually a problem it's actually problematic.
Netflix's Erik C: Yep.
nick : Conservationism and ah is it in itself a colonialist... Practice. um If you've... ever heard of dr robin kimmerer and her work her book braiding sweetgrass is incredible um she has native american roots in i believe upstate new york and she's also a scientist and she in her you know botany classes would talk to the professors about hey you know if you want the sweet grass to grow back more vigorously, you have to harvest it.
nick : Like you have to take.
Netflix's Erik C: Mm hmm.
nick : and if you want and it's no different from the forest right if you want the forest to be healthy, you have to take from it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : um Otherwise, you end up with these huge forest fires and and uncontrollable disasters that are really difficult.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i
Netflix's Erik C: Well, that's what we had.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: That's what we had for 70 years. It was a no burn policy. right It was like any any forest fire was devastating and bad.
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. That's right.
Netflix's Erik C: and then
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's right.
Netflix's Erik C: you know And now now we're living in the repercussions of that.
nick : Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was in in Arizona not that long ago, and I noticed around Flagstaff, there was a gigantic. ponderosa pine forest, but it was kind of sparse. It wasn't like super tight trees everywhere against each other.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Apparently, they had very, very carefully managed that forest so that there was enough space that if a fire broke out, it didn't like sweep over the entire.
nick : Good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's it's like a properly thinned and managed forest. And it's very. ah consistent with the way the ecosystem would have been without human interaction. And I don't think people know that. that That thinning trees or like trees being.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: manage properly involves. cutting down sometimes certain members of that ecosystem, not all of not clear cutting.
Netflix's Erik C: But...
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but very selective.
Netflix's Erik C: But also... Fire is a natural part of the forest, so much so that some trees...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That too. That too.
Netflix's Erik C: the sequoia being one of them, have developed...
nick : Yep.
Netflix's Erik C: The only way that the sequoia can spread its seed is if there is a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah That's right. That's right. is fire.
Netflix's Erik C: a fire. Right, right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, explain that, right?
nick : Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Does the fire opens the seed pods or something like that?
Netflix's Erik C: well, so so Yeah, so so... Two things happen, and I'm i'm not a... Fucking. triologist So forgive me, but, ah but, but.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nick is. ah
nick : Arborists with triologists, you know.
Netflix's Erik C: The, the, yeah. Well, the six and one half dozen, the other. So the Sequoia has a skin. the The bark on the Sequoia is like. substantially thicker than most trees, six inches, eight inches thick. And that is partially so that it can withstand the heat of the fire and the... the the mechanisms of the tree not burn, but also the the pods do not open unless they are burned.
Netflix's Erik C: And so the the forest fire that occurs. in western uh the western u .s and california etc etc um There are... the The trees will drop their pods.
Netflix's Erik C: They will open if there is a forest fire. And there are also animals. There are hawks of some type that... they're like they seek out the fire because they know that the the sequoias are dropping their pods and opening so they can get at the seeds they pick up the seeds
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh wow.
Netflix's Erik C: They dive. Face first into the fucking forest fire. They pick up the seeds and they carry the seeds elsewhere.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What?
Netflix's Erik C: And that's how the the forest continues to expand.
nick : Bro, hawks don't eat seeds.
Netflix's Erik C: whatever it's not a fucking hawk it's whatever it's a pigeon i don't fucking know it's a bird it's somebody has this fucking avian creature i don't fucking know google google Google fire pigeon and you'll figure it out.
nick : Oh, okay. A bird.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a pigeon. pigeon All right, someone please Google The type of...
nick : A pigeon. A New York City pigeon. Flies into the inferno.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Alright.
nick : Fire. Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Peace. Someone please verify Eric's story because we have reason to believe he may.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
nick : but But what he's saying is is correct.
Netflix's Erik C: Fire pigeons?
nick : Because they need the heat.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
nick : They need the heat to to be able to release and germinate and go through that process. Some seeds. some seeds literally need to be ingested by an animal and let the acids from the stomach
Netflix's Erik C: Mm -hmm.
nick : And then when it's pooped out after. It's the perfect. little you know germination stations So it's unbelievable.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The Sequoia pigeon. As it were.
nick : The Sequoia fire pigeon.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: I don't know If you've taken nothing else from the podcast today. Remember the Sequoia fire vision.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe that's the t -shirt. It's a pigeon shitting out like a fire seed, Eric.
Netflix's Erik C: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Netflix's Erik C: Shitting out an entire Sequoia.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have, ah so you asked me earlier, like, how do I feel about lumber and harvesting of trees? I have two points and I think. One of them has been discussed already. So first off is longevity.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's a wonder, woodworking to me, and I hope all of you who do woodworking feel good about this. It's a wonderful way to honor this natural resource. i I... do believe that the things I make Will.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: carry on past my lifetime. I'm almost certain of that. And I have I mean, we see in museums, not that my piece are going to be in museums, but we see that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: well -made objects are cared for and prized by humans for centuries right so something you make you could you know where it would have biodegraded in the forest and there's a role for biodegradation as its habitat nutrient for other animals that's true i'm not saying we don't need that but it also
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: prolongs this natural resource in terms of centuries. And humans are part of the ecosystem. We love it. We treasure them. We use them. Dressers, you know, from the 1700s, 1600s. It's wonderful.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The fact that we still use them. Yeah. And so I love the longevity piece of woodworking. And the second piece I love is. I try, Nick. to buy domestic woods because i feel like at least domestic woods and they're so beautiful the walnuts we have here the maples we have here eric's favorite the cherry he's like and in the if you have the if you have the video feed you can see eric's surrounded by cherry uh The quarter sawn oaks.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They're just so gorgeous and they're plentiful in North America. Why do we need to be buying rainforest woods where we're not exactly sure? how they were harvested.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so I'm. i am to the point now where i feel and do i have rainforest woods in my shop yes did i buy them no anymore. I do not buy them. If someone gives them to me, hey, my my uncle had this for, so you know. to 50 years in his basement and you want to give it to me sure i you know i might use a little bit of it but I do not purchase rainforest woods voluntarily.
nick : It's good practice.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go ahead, Eric. Were you going to say something?
Netflix's Erik C: I don't remember. I was going to make a joke, but I don't have it anymore.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Netflix's Erik C: so get Let's get the fuck out of here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Yeah.
Netflix's Erik C: Oh, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So with that, you know Nick - Great discussion today. We started with the idea of. creativity how do we create without knowing exactly where we're going and i think your your netflix show was an example for both of you how you do that and you talked about the trust and the excitement the surrender right of your ego to like I don't know what's coming. We talked about Jeez, we talked about the importance of collaboration and how to get it at it and maybe what holds us back.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We had the most horrible ad read in the history of the earth.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or best, depending on your point of view. and then Nick, thank you so much. for I still have another ah bazillion questions about plants.
Netflix's Erik C: Yeah. Thanks buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and and botany and and our relationship with trees but thank you so much this was fascinating
nick : oh This is a blast. Thank you guys for having me on. We'll have to do it in person next time.
Netflix's Erik C: Hell yeah, man. Hell yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hell yeah. All right, for those of you who are patrons, ah you get the after show, and we're going to talk more to Nick after this.
nick : assist
Netflix's Erik C: Goddamn right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I hope you join us.
Netflix's Erik C: Thanks, friends.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks everyone.
Netflix's Erik C: Bye.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks, Nick.
