Transcript
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Do you feel stressed? Of course you do. You're a human. but Do you think about how best to handle your stress. Did you seek out making art as a way to manage your stress? And did that work?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or did that actually? Add to your stress.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we're back. Your favorite band of misfit toys causing trouble and hurting feelings. This. is woodworking is bullshit your favorite podcast about why we do the things we do not how we do the things we do i'm your host paul jasper of copper pig woodworking scientist by day woodworker by night and of course i got my boy in the chair eric curtis fine furniture maker and Spanish teacher.
Hobb-Erik: Como estas mother bitches, what is up? now
Matt Whited (he/him): Está bien.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah And apparently we have a second Spanish teacher on the show tonight.
Matt Whited (he/him): Ah. I have a 90 day streak on Duolingo.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm unstoppable.
Hobb-Erik: You're basically fluent at this point.
Matt Whited (he/him): I am, I am, yeah, yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): i can Anything in the present tense you want.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Dr. Matthew Whited is our guest tonight. Dual lingo.
Hobb-Erik: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: streak maker is a clinical health psychologist and associate professor at East Carolina University. Matt is going to help us. understand stress because in his work, he has studied for many years now, the behavioral risk factors for cardiovascular disease.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Guess what stress is? Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): A behavioral risk factor for cardiovascular disease.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There we go
Matt Whited (he/him): There you go.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. So this this episode on stress, you know, when I first thought about it. I was like, well, sure. Everyone knows what stress is. And ah how you know what's to talk about? We all know, right? a Stress is bad. you know You do things to mitigate your stress. But then...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I realized that that's a very... That's a very casual take on stress. And if we could have a domain expert here with us, Matt. who studies stress in a and an academic sense, meaning like he has devoted his life to breaking stress apart into its component pieces, understanding what those are, understanding time -based factors, age -based factors.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know just All the ins and outs of it and how to how to address them, I thought we could actually have a much more thorough, much more interesting talk about stress. And then...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Not only that. but we could relate it to... our art and our making and our hobbies. And you think, oh, well, that's going to. That's going to. Take your stress down. And I thought, does it?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because I've had woodworking actually add to my stress in certain cases. So that is today's topic. And we're so happy to have Matt. and Matt, thank you for joining us tonight. We are absolutely. um humbled that you came on our web on our our podcast. So let me turn it over to you to Define how you see stress and... what some of the ah risk factors are and how it affects us.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, great question. um You know, ah one annoying fact about me, I just want to get out of the way is that the answer to everything from an academic perspective, and especially from a psychologist is it depends.
Matt Whited (he/him): because
Hobb-Erik: Oh you son of a bitch
Matt Whited (he/him): I know everything is conditional, but see, I'm also, I will talk your ear off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Hobb-Erik: so
Matt Whited (he/him): So I will tell you all the different ways that it might depend. I don't just stop at. It depends. um so But stress, I mean, I think the most important thing is to grab like, what is the definition of stress? What is it? So I looked up what my you know home organization, the American Psychological Association says, and their definition was the psychophysiological response to internal or external stressors.
Matt Whited (he/him): There's a few pieces to break down. so Psychophysiological, meaning that psycho is in like the stuff that's in our head, our thoughts, our feelings. all of that and physiological, what the rest of our body is doing.
Matt Whited (he/him): So it's a global thing. Stress affects all of our different parts when it's happening. um And it is our response to that, which is super. broad, right? Because we can have all kinds of responses. ah so So to say that our body's response to internal external stressors is stress is a bit kind of... A circular. definition It's a good one, but a little circular.
Matt Whited (he/him): I like to think of stress is as the feeling that we have when our mental or physical resources are taxed. or spent. So stress is this response we have. it's it's ah It's a taxing of our resources. And I like thinking of it in that way. And it's psychophysiological, like the APA definition says.
Matt Whited (he/him): But I like thinking of it in that way for for for one big reason. Stress isn't always. bad. And that's where when we have, when we think of stress, we think of stress. like stressed out or or just like you know i'm stressed or something like that well we're stressed all the time there are demands on us all the time And if they are demands that we can like rise to the occasion and and meet those demands and it's kind of what we're used to or slightly.
Matt Whited (he/him): you know slightly beyond what we're used to so we're pushing ourselves that stress can be good That can be something. And that internal, that psychophysiological response can be. healthy and and helpful for us.
Hobb-Erik: so Matt, I'm glad you brought that up. right off the jump because uh i feel like as soon as we hear stress it's a negative connotation and and as you just hit the nail on the head like stress can lead to growth you can't actually grow without stress right without stressing like
Matt Whited (he/him): Uh huh.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes.
Hobb-Erik: pushing just beyond the the maximum capacity of the resources that you said you have. So how... I mean, maybe this is maybe I'm jumping the gun and and we'll get into this, but how do you differentiate between good stress and bad stress?
Matt Whited (he/him): It depends.
Hobb-Erik: Oh, you son of a bitch.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How do you say that in Spanish?
Hobb-Erik: ah It depends -o.
Matt Whited (he/him): I don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): ah I already messed up the, I said, I think I said Estabien, which I think I said you're good when we started instead of I'm good.
Hobb-Erik: And... ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Um, So ah it it depends on on on the effect of it. It depends on what it does to us. So kind of good stress depends on a little, whether it's good or bad kind of depends on the outcome and how we approach it. So if it if it comes to us, if the stressor comes to us and we're like.
Matt Whited (he/him): I got this shit. Um, Or, you know, even on a little worse, like, okay, I'll add this to my to do list. I'll get it done. I can do this. Like that's a good stress and a good stressor. Like, weird.
Hobb-Erik: So is it is it just a pure straight gamble of you don't know if it's a good stress or a bad stress until you have the clarity of hindsight?
Matt Whited (he/him): Um... Some stuff, you know, you can't handle right from the get go. Like you get into a car accident, something like that, or, you know, something completely unexpected, like there's someone gets injured or is sick or something like suddenly there's a whole nother thing on your plate.
Matt Whited (he/him): But... if it's within our If it's... within what we predict. we'd be able to handle it can usually be ah like like a more of a good stress. Use stress is the other term for this. The other term is comes from the ah stress is enhancing literature. Like stress makes us. better, more powerful by overcoming it.
Matt Whited (he/him): um So it is a little bit in hindsight, but I would say. that It. we can generally predict, or we have a prediction about whether it's a...
Matt Whited (he/him): beatable stressor or not.
Hobb-Erik: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): And sometimes we're wrong about that. And then it becomes like a bad stressor, right? Like, oh, I can totally handle this, this, this, and this. um I said yes to way too many talks. like I had like PowerPoint slides doing all this shit too, like ah very rapidly um a few weeks ago.
Matt Whited (he/him): And so at the time when I said yes, I'm like, oh, yeah, I totally got this. This is easy. I've done the talk like this before. I'll just like put something new together. And then they all wanted them at the same time. ah And so that like then it suddenly became like something that was stressful, like it it impacted.
Matt Whited (he/him): My. usual kind of like distribution distribution of time like I had to work late and then that messed with my sleep it messed with my self -care because I need to like exercise i need to relax i need all these things and i had to drop some of those temporarily to deal with these stressors.
Matt Whited (he/him): So in that way, they became bad stressors. They ended up themselves. I'm glad I did them and you know it was worth the time to do them, but they became bad in the sense that they had a negative effect on me. um they were they They pushed beyond my resources.
Hobb-Erik: So. So. How much of the negative effect or the net? bad stress is just the emotional reaction to the stress that's being had. Like, is it, you know, because we'll we'll say some folks.
Hobb-Erik: and you know, we We could argue that there's bad stress if you're being overloaded, but some folks are really good at just putting their head down and being like, fuck you, I'm going to get it done anyway.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm -hmm.
Hobb-Erik: And so it's not necessarily like a negative. I don't know how to handle all this. I'm losing sleep thinking about it. It's just I'm losing sleep because I have shit to do So I'm going to allocate sleep.
Hobb-Erik: differently than I normally would.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So, Eric. What I took from your question is. Your. mental perspective about it can redefine it as good or bad stress?
Hobb-Erik: Mm.
Hobb-Erik: Well, that's what I'm trying to ask. That was a much better way to ask my question. So thank you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes. um Yes and no, because you want to think of the the response.
Hobb-Erik: It depends.
Matt Whited (he/him): It does depend.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Hobb-Erik: I don't know.
Matt Whited (he/him): The um the response is the response is psychosocial.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eso depende.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): you know And so part of that is... are sorry, psychophysiological. I adhere to the biopsychosocial model, which says that when you know anything in a biological psychological or social realm they affect each other so something disrupts one
Hobb-Erik: Matt, I'm going to tell you right now, I'm an idiot, so multi -syllabic words are difficult for me to...
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. What?
Hobb-Erik: to Digest.
Matt Whited (he/him): It's three words smooshed together. But to let me go back to your example. like
Hobb-Erik: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): Your example of that where someone just like puts their head down is like I'll just do it. I'll do it I'll do it. um I would say that person is experiencing like ah They are stressed. They are stressed out or, you know, are in danger of burnout. There's stuff going on there that is kind of not. um not healthy in the sense that They are having a behavioral response to stress where they're dropping other important things in their life in order to.
Matt Whited (he/him): in this case, in your example work on this project. so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Get her done.
Matt Whited (he/him): you know, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Hobb-Erik: Get her done
Matt Whited (he/him): Like a psychological response to stress involves the emotional aspects, but it also involves changes in behavior. So when we start changing. when when a stressor changes the way we think or the way we live. in ways that could be problematic then i'd say it's it's we've we've crossed a line beyond that stress being an enhancement, something that like we can achieve and is going to give us a feeling of power and and and agency and all that, into something that's...
Matt Whited (he/him): we gotta take kind of a we're gonna have and we're gonna need a recovery from that it's not just kind of flowing through life
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see, so it's it's... I see. So it's not quite as simple as how you cast it in your brain makes it good or bad because there's things attached to that, which is the the actual behavior and the follow through.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That can actually. upend your life so it's not it's not as simple as a decision Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. and And some people don't have a lot of mental stress. They're like. Like they they don't experience it that way. Yeah. They experience it in stomach aches and headaches and.
Matt Whited (he/him): Their sleep is shit, not because they don't have enough time to sleep, but because when they lay down, they're startling themselves awake and they're like, yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Paul, that's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Matt.
Hobb-Erik: You getting nailed to the cross right now, buddy.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Matt!
Matt Whited (he/him): That's it.
Hobb-Erik: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You just described me to a T. I was going to save this for later, but we have to do it now because you said it.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I never think I'm stressed In my brain. Never. I'm always like, cool, it's fine, totally fine.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Really, I'm not pan - I almost never feel panic. Never feel irritation. Cool as a cucumber. But more in the last 10 years. My body is telling me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a completely different story i have
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: about something, I'll be like, oh, it's totally fine. No problem. And these are large things. These are not small things. So they tend to be the bigger things. And I'll have. Immediate.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and recognizable stomach pain. And I'm like, what's that? I never had that when I was 20. And it was my body. having a psychosomatic reaction to stress that I didn't recognize.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In my brain, what the fuck is that?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What's going on in that case?
Matt Whited (he/him): That is, you've probably heard of the fight or flight or freeze response, or at least the fight or flight response, right? so Our bodies are evolved to give us. to infuse us with Shh. energy.
Matt Whited (he/him): that is useful in the short term. for solving short -term problems our bodies evolved to be able to run away from lions to startle when we see something scary and like jump and run out of the way like it's or to just like
Matt Whited (he/him): Like when we are, you know, when we were hunting in groups with our rudimentary spears and we'd evolved that far and we're hunting down large mammals, that fear response gives us the energy and adrenaline we need to stab the crap out of a saber tooth tiger as a group, you know, because they're much bigger than us and stronger than us.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): And like, you know, we got to get in there. um So. That is how our bodies evolved to be able to to to respond to that. But our stressors are no longer. animals or threats that we have to fight or run from, they are taxes ah and deadlines. and so But our body responds in the same way, maybe not to the same degree.
Matt Whited (he/him): but in the same way. And so with more and more of those stressors coming at us to where our body responds with like, Gotta mobilize our resources. It's like putting gas in the tank. Or...
Matt Whited (he/him): Take a note. shot of speed or something like, like.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, but like why, why, why intellectually or cognitively can I, can I not identify it? And my body just tells a different story. Why am I not seeing it in my own?
Matt Whited (he/him): Well...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Brain.
Matt Whited (he/him): If I had to guess, it would be because of that anticipatory piece of stress where we're like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: one
Matt Whited (he/him): oh, I've got this, this is, a this is this isn't, that that. Because you've been able to handle shit in the past. So your your brain.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. In fact.
Matt Whited (he/him): Your brain isn't telling you that's scary.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's it.
Matt Whited (he/him): I can't handle this. Your brain is telling you, yeah, we got this, buddy. We got this. We got this.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know...
Matt Whited (he/him): And so, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: to be To be honest, I've always. Had it. I have crash and burn very, very few times in my life. because of like mental, like I could always figure it out. Like that is just kind of.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a confidence in myself due to like repeated like repeatedly just figuring shit out my entire life. So I guess when I see a problem, I'm like, no problem. No problem here. But like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: apparently part of my brain doesn't believe that like part does maybe my prefrontal cortex does like the rational part but maybe like the stress part like my fight or flight amygdala or something you know doesn't believe it and it actually is
Matt Whited (he/him): yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Uh, you know. Turning on me or or you know, maybe I'm not aware of it
Matt Whited (he/him): And it depends on how long. that stress response keeps around because it's like the the ideal is. We have this. I might misquote some of these, but we have this alarm phase where we're like, oh shit, new thing.
Matt Whited (he/him): And then we have the reaction or resistance phase where where we our our physiology ramps up and it's getting going. But that can be like you know a good cup of coffee when you've got to do some work.
Matt Whited (he/him): like It is an infusion of of power in some ways.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): And so if that... Then... You get shit done during that time and stuff gets accomplished and then you have time to come down on the other end
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): We start to get especially the physical parts of it when we go up
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, so it's...
Matt Whited (he/him): And then we stay there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): So.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So it's a prolongation. So actually that, that coming back to your sort of intro about stress.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So you talked about like good stress and bad stress, and now you're talking about degree and duration, like acute versus chronic.
Matt Whited (he/him): mm -hmm
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Can you tell us about that?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, I mean the the normal reaction this the reaction distress you want is thing happens I get. physiologically like amped. i take care of thing and then i have time to to calm down so that's the like Ah, lion, run away. Oh, I'm safe. I can calm down. Now, if you're always then afraid another lion's going to come and you can hear them outside of your cave or whatever, then you're constantly freaked out. That's going to wear on your body. Your body's always ready to move, to fight, to burn.
Matt Whited (he/him): Now take that to the modern equivalent. If we've got a lot of stuff to do and we're not engaging in. good self care, like things that calm us down, things that relax us, things that cool us off, things that are valuable to us in other ways than the than the stressors that are coming in. If we don't... Have that cool off.
Matt Whited (he/him): time and that cool and methods of cooling off, then we're always going to be amped. And that's the wear and tear on the body. That's when we start to feel it in the body.
Hobb-Erik: So ah one thing that happens to me, and in I'm... only now linking to... to Paul, what you just described happens to your body, but when... I get on a deadline when I get on a crunch when I get on a heater.
Hobb-Erik: Um, I've always assumed that I've just trained my body to work like 16 hour days. But what will happen is even when I take a day off. My body like it'll I'll just wake up at like 4 am 5 am and my body's like we got shit to do dog and it's not in Paul, to to what you were saying, like it's not I don't wake up feeling like, oh my God, I have so much shit to do. I don't know how I'm going to get it all done. It's very much a thing of like.
Hobb-Erik: Okay. Well, you know, like I've got, I've got work to, nobody's going to do it for me. So let's just go get it done. But my body just wakes up. And it's like. Why the fuck are you sleeping? like we got We got a deadline coming up.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. yeah
Hobb-Erik: you know You think you can waste time sleeping right now?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Well, Eric, that's why I think it's almost like a separation of what's going on in your brain. You have the stress center, like your amygdala going, oh shit, oh shit, oh shit.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then you have your your prefrontal cortex that is like the the governor, the rational computer center saying, look, I've done this a million times.
Hobb-Erik: Right, and that's
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know we're going to figure this out.
Hobb-Erik: Exactly what you were just saying.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Don't worry, baby.
Hobb-Erik: Like, I know how to build a thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's all good.
Hobb-Erik: I know what to do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: I just i just need to devote the time to do it. And then my medulla oblongata is like, and that's the only brain part I know, ah is like, ah hey, dog, if you're going to get it done, like you.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and
Hobb-Erik: you got to have more hours in the day.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, and it's it's saying it creates that sense of urgency. It's like do it right now. then it's gone. Do it now. And that's the part where like. we got other shit in our life right then these we're talking mostly like work -related deadline stress it's like we got other shit in our life we got to take care of our bodies a bit We got friends and family. We've got like we got other shit. that we need to go and do.
Matt Whited (he/him): um And when it takes us away from that. it it's It's just that very simple pattern of... Wake up, work. go to sleep wake up work go to sleep because i'm crossing stuff off my to -do list because the to -do list is is is calling at me.
Hobb-Erik: But but crucially, like you said, I think the only reason I i know the only reason and i I don't even want to say that it's sustainable because I don't think it's sustainable. But the reason. that I feel that I can power through that.
Hobb-Erik: is because it has ah an end date.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Hobb-Erik: Like sans end date. that's an impossible way to to live you know but if it's okay we've got six weeks till the deadline It's go time.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Get the fucking thing done. And then invariably after the delivery, it's like, oh, I'm going to go sleep for three days. You know, I'm not going to drink a cup of coffee or a glass of bourbon for a week.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: You know, like I'm going to like full reset.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yep.
Hobb-Erik: um And I... I don't know. Maybe it's not the healthiest way to live, but it's also like, sometimes you just got to get shit done. I don't know how to.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: how to navigate around that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sometime.
Matt Whited (he/him): Well...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): And if it works, it works too. like Again, like it's if it's functional, it's functional.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): So if it if that works, then that's great. The only way to find out if if another way would be better is to experiment. and kind of say like, okay, I'm going to work. eight hour days Take a break and then see if I'm.
Matt Whited (he/him): more productive. um and that's what i always i uh i do a depression treatment called behavioral activation and in that you monitor everything you're doing. for a week straight.
Matt Whited (he/him): writing down the stuff you do every hour. And that really helps patients and me to look at that and say, okay, here's where your time is wasted or here's where all the inefficiencies are. Like I do it myself, not because I'm worried about depression, but because I'm worried about like.
Matt Whited (he/him): inefficiency Like where does the time go?
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): And then I fill out that thing. I'm like, well, there's where it fucking went. Because I was so tired.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Matt Whited (he/him): Like. Cause I was so tired. I'd worn myself down that the only thing I could do is sit in doom scroll for two hours or do something stupid for two hours.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): When, if I had spread my energy out. That would have been productive time. um And so like I think that's a lifelong thing because it's changing all the time that we're all trying to learn. it' like how do i spend my time like i used to be a night owl i could sit and write like all night My brain now, with my 46 -year -old brain is dead at 430.
Matt Whited (he/him): like I can give you emails. I can give you some edits, like stuff that is not hard. But. in terms of writing and creating something that doesn't exist. I can't do that in the evening anymore. Like it used to be easy. I don't know if that, I mean, I i blamed age because. at this certain age, you start blaming every fricking thing on age. um But, it you know, but it just.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric you're almost there buddy.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, no, I can feel it.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: I can feel it coming
Matt Whited (he/him): It just, ah it just changes over time. And so like. Being flexible and nimble and trying new shit is is one way to do it. and you know I'm a scientist. I do that with data. i track how I'm spending my time. And then I make decisions about it where I just kind of reflect on how I'm spending my time and be like, I want less of this and more of this. How do I do that? And then I'm a calendar dude.
Matt Whited (he/him): So I just put it in my calendar and then I'm. Trying it out. Sometimes it doesn't work, but.
Hobb-Erik: But does... But does it stress you out that you're not maximizing your efficiencies all over the place?
Matt Whited (he/him): No, because I have an obstinate prefrontal cortex. And if I try to optimize.
Hobb-Erik: ah Where is that in relation to the Manula Ablangada?
Matt Whited (he/him): the This front part.
Hobb-Erik: awesome
Matt Whited (he/him): The front part is the most evolved part.
Hobb-Erik: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): The old shit is in the back. The new shit is in the front. So that's why I like.
Hobb-Erik: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): if you get hit in the back of the head you see stars your breathing might be messed with and all that because all the important shits like back here in the well back kind of all around, but like in the bottom of the brain.
Hobb-Erik: um
Matt Whited (he/him): And then as you get more evolutionarily advanced, it's toward the top of the brain. So the prefrontal the smart parts are like all around in here, especially between the temples, like right about here. That's the smart part. And mine's very obstinate. uh so like if i try to over schedule it or push it like i need frivolous free time and sometimes i schedule frivolity um but i but like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i That is like...
Hobb-Erik: It's good. Sometimes I schedule a frivolity.
Matt Whited (he/him): I know I need that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Scheduled frivolity.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: That's it, Paul.
Matt Whited (he/him): Because...
Hobb-Erik: That's got to be the name of this episode.
Matt Whited (he/him): Is it?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah And that's an oxymoron, by the way.
Hobb-Erik: Scheduled for Volody. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's like huge shrimp, right?
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like scheduled frivolity.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yep.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Because if I do that, if I so if i so plan to take time to just do... whatever the fuck comes to mind that is not planned, that is not then that is what my brain needs. It needs that freedom from self -imposed control. And I've just, I've learned that every time. Cause if it doesn't, if I don't plan it, it's going to happen.
Matt Whited (he/him): It's going to happen when I'm sitting there trying to work and all I'm thinking about is. I wonder what the latest technology about GPS dog collars is, because I'd really love to see if that's like, I'm going to visit my parents. They don't have a fence. I'm just wondering.
Matt Whited (he/him): I need to know all about this. Now. um And so like, and that's just like, if I had my own free time, I'd be like, huh, I wonder about this fucking thing. And then I look it up and I'd never buy it because I don't.
Matt Whited (he/him): you know i just like to learn all about it so i look it all up and i'd learn all about the technology and then i'm then i'm deep into like gps signals versus like how's this working on lte e versus 2g because some of them are 2g up to 4g and 5g like like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. I say.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): This is where I went. This is where I went.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I get the feeling this has already happened, Matt.
Matt Whited (he/him): and that This happened last like a few days ago
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Yeah, I could tell.
Matt Whited (he/him): Because I have been I've been on like heavy like I'm not doing 16 hour days, but I'm doing like heavy work days because I'm catching up from being out of town and and all this other stuff.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): And so I just sat there for like an hour trying to figure this out because that seemed so pressing at the time. So I like I know how my like that was my brain escaping stress. it needs that so i just find ways to give it to it that work for me.
Matt Whited (he/him): um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So.
Hobb-Erik: That's fair.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Matt, how do we know we're stressed? Obviously, like my example, maybe Eric's example, you seem to know your stress better than we do.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was saying my stomach was letting me know something my brain wasn't sensing. So in a general sense, how do we?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: monitor better. whether we're stressed or not.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, I... I think the key piece that we've kind of discovered talking here today is that we need to look at the bio. biological, psychological, social aspects, biopsychosocial. So for some people, it's gonna be the way their body feels.
Matt Whited (he/him): For some people it's gonna be their emotions For some people, it's really going to be how they spend their time. um The thing to look for most there is social withdrawal. If you're suddenly canceling a lot of plans and you're like, I don't feel like it, you know that that kind of stuff.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ooh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a
Matt Whited (he/him): Those kind of things, especially when there's stuff that is like... core to who you are. Like, I really just I can't I'm not feeling the podcast this week. You know, maybe we can postpone it. Like, that's a sign of. being stressed like overstressed stressed out Because that's like, this is something you really care about and love, but you're having the feeling that you don't want to do it. They don't feel like it. Like if you don't feel like doing stuff you love.
Matt Whited (he/him): That's a sign of stress.
Hobb-Erik: You know what stresses me out is the fact that 78 episodes into this fucking podcast, Paul still doesn't understand how to use the goddamn mute button when he opens and pours a drink.
Matt Whited (he/him): I thought that was intentional.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, that was. No, no.
Matt Whited (he/him): Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. It's like people can, can listen and be like, is that bourbon opening?
Hobb-Erik: That's ASMR going on.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I thought I heard it.
Matt Whited (he/him): I thought...
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): I thought we were doing a little ASMR here, like in the middle of the, I don't even know what that stands for.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a strong boop.
Matt Whited (he/him): I just know the kids like it nowadays.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): but
Hobb-Erik: Audio something something. Something.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, so we're looking for changes in our body. We're looking for changes in how we think and especially our interactions with others socially.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. And our behavior, like if if we if we don't feel like doing stuff, that's that's a sign that maybe we're stressed. Sometimes it means we need a break, but it's also like if that persistence starts to really go along. Same with like...
Matt Whited (he/him): kind of the the kind of pains that either exacerbation of pains that we have so like if you have a bad knee or something like that um and it's feeling worse than usual. Okay. um If your sleep gets bad suddenly for no reason and that lasts for a little while.
Hobb-Erik: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): Okay. Like you start to. wonder about that and notice what your kind of tells are. Um, And then you got to do the smart thing about it and try to change some things. I see my towels. I'm like, oh, I'm stressed.
Matt Whited (he/him): Fuck it. I'll just keep going. You know, I'm just like.
Hobb-Erik: That is 100 % my response is, fuck you, I'm going to do it.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'll get to the other side of yeah Yeah. Yeah. yeah
Hobb-Erik: I'm gonna punch it in the face.
Matt Whited (he/him): but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, you you called it your tells, Matt.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You said, I know my tells.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I think that's very helpful because I apparently don't know my tells. I've only learned them in the last 10 years that a stomach ache in a very, very specific spot. I mean, I could point to it with.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: half an inch accuracy every time.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like a band, like a lateral band across the top of my stomach, just below my rib cage. And it goes, it's about five inches wide and it's real thin and it hurts like.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: crazy within seconds of the of the major stress. And ah sure, that's my tell now, but what the fuck?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I just learned it in the last few years. I wish I was.
Matt Whited (he/him): Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: more aware of my stress and tells earlier, but I guess I didn't have a lot of stress earlier. Nothing used to manifest when I was younger. But I love that you call it tells. And ah for the listeners, I'm curious, have you figured out what your tells are in terms of stress? I i didn't. so Kudos to you if you did. I want to.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: One of the questions I had for you. Matt is, is about. Right now. This year, 2026. where we live.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I feel like so much is changing so fast. We're working more than ever. Social media. has I mean...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wow, what a roller coaster that's been.
Matt Whited (he/him): Heh heh heh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: over the last 10, 20 years. We have. world's changes happening on a timescale like breakneck timescale. ah We're reporting the highest loneliness ever.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In our society. social socializing is way down. I actually just read a study today that between. ah The 70s. 1970s. And today we socialize or have dinner parties 90 % less than we used to. back then.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: which is like, holy shit. And that was, and it's not just dinner parties, it's across the board. So we're socializing less. You know, you keep reading about a lonely. loneliness epidemic. And. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm wondering... With all of these changes occurring, How our stress... Huh. measures doing today? What are you what are you stress researchers seeing in our society as?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: happening right now.
Matt Whited (he/him): Great question. um Probably because we talked about it before here. But... But the... there's a american psychological association again that's my home association um They're not the one I spend the most time with, but they come up with the stuff that is like endemic to our field.
Matt Whited (he/him): um And so they have a stress in America study where they survey sources of stress and levels of stress. Levels of stress have upped a little bit. They've spiked during the pandemic, um but they're kind of like on a slow increase.
Matt Whited (he/him): They're not like changing a lot, but the sources of stress change a lot. so One that that i that we didn't talk about beforehand or I didn't look up beforehand um is ah fear of AI and the implications on people's jobs and stuff like that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, i meant to I meant to say that. Yeah, ai yeah go ahead.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Like that's one of the big sources that people are. are really worried about in terms of like, what is this going to do to my job? um And if you've used AI extensively, depending on your job, sometimes it's like.
Matt Whited (he/him): i don't feel threatened yet um like i certainly don't because it's dumb as shit and make stuff up. but it's going to improve like that's the thing this is like it's more about this dread of the future like okay this is getting better every day and eventually it should be able to do the things that people pretend it can do now. um So it is kind of like challenging and problematic in that way. So that's one thing that people are really afraid of. But the biggest stressors, the biggest things that are. impacting people now and causing them stress.
Matt Whited (he/him): is societal division. and loneliness. This is what people reported across the country, representative sample. Societal division and the fact that like... you know we're not getting along with each other there's a very much us versus them no matter what us you are and what them they are. There's a there's an us and a them. um That causes a lot of problems. That's kind of something that has been...
Matt Whited (he/him): part of humanity for a long like for maybe ever this us versus them we fall very easily into that kind of tribalism but those fires have been stoked even more um right now across the world not just across the country to where it is like ah you're either on this side or that side And if you're one of these, you gotta hate these. ah And that causes a lot of stress because...
Matt Whited (he/him): One, it's teaching us that there's someone out there. who is after us. And. We need to be like ready and defensive. This is that tiger stalking around the outside of your cave. Like you can hear it and you know it's out there.
Matt Whited (he/him): Maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm imagining it or maybe it's real, but it's out there. And so that doesn't allow your body and mind to... to reach a stage of relaxation the stage of like recovery from stress so it's just chronic stress.
Matt Whited (he/him): um And then. So that's a big piece of it. But then there's the other side of it that is like, well, I got to take these people out. I got to keep fighting this. I need to fight by telling, you know by talking about. political stuff that pisses me off i need to fight by telling people to vote or doing community activism or or or s stumping for candidates or you know whatever because a lot of this stuff is political right now so
Matt Whited (he/him): it gives us this like feeling of like i have to go do something to fight the other or the others after me and i have to do something about it so it's just it's That's that political division and social division.
Matt Whited (he/him): brings a lot of stress to people and it's stress that doesn't Relent because it's everywhere if you turn on a screen It is there. um And you used to be able to escape that kind of thing by being in your own social circle, right? But now our social circles are infected with it. And a lot of our social circles, like families especially, have broken up over.
Matt Whited (he/him): over these divisions um to be like yeah we're doing thanksgiving on our own this year because uncle so -and -so couldn't keep his damn mouth shut about something that he read on on on some you know social media platform uh and so and i'm being like agnostic about the the sides of this division because it doesn't matter you're experiencing a ton of stress whether you're in the right or in the wrong and of course that's defined by which group you're part of so that has been a huge stressor uh
Hobb-Erik: yeah yeah yeah
Matt Whited (he/him): Ellie Lee.
Hobb-Erik: All right. I have mixed feelings. ah I... Obviously, I agree with everything you just said. You're and infinitely smarter than I am, so I take you at your word. But I i find it an interesting component of the human condition that like.
Hobb-Erik: I'm no historian. I'm no evolutionary scientist, but that that feels like the way that humans have existed for. the entire existence of our species except we used to live like 24 years you know And now now now that that constant cortisol dump.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah ah Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: over 70 years really fucks your body up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, Not only did we live for 24 years, Eric, because we got a ah ah trivial bacterial infection in our foot and died at age 24, but we were in smaller groups.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Hey.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: were in clan -sized groups of 20 to 50 usually related people is how they think humans evolved, ah small family clan -sized groups. And you didn't know about a world of news going on.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You didn't know about this clan and that clan.
Hobb-Erik: Sure, sure. There's always terrible things happening.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, the the problem is...
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is is the screens were inundated by information about every clan in every country at every time, all the time.
Hobb-Erik: but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's just too much.
Hobb-Erik: But didn't we also always have to keep our head on a swivel looking for the tiger, looking for the lion in the bush?
Matt Whited (he/him): I was just watching a wonderful, I can't remember the name of it, but it's... um This is a ah social media account that... on facebook that really gets into like these different stories of human evolution the first one was on forging and iron and the copper age the iron copper to bronze to iron age. And I was just so curious about why is everything made of iron? And it was just so neat. So the other thing that that they got into.
Matt Whited (he/him): uh was this idea that i'm losing my train of thought let me catch this back i just poured a whiskey Um,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): I knew this is why I waited.
Hobb-Erik: Matt, I feel like we're gonna get along just fine, buddy.
Matt Whited (he/him): this is why I waited. And then I saw the two of you do it. And I'm like, man, I feel left out. I'm going to, and now, i now that's my trade thought.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Shit.
Matt Whited (he/him): um So, oh, so. what When... when we track the spread of of early humans. Um, the existence the presence of early humans in a certain region is correlated with a reduction in major predatory species.
Matt Whited (he/him): The giant, there's this weird ass tall bear with long legs. Freakiest fucking thing. But like that thing. goes goes extinct uh when humans move into that space saber -tooth tigers giant ground sloths even the mammoths like they they start going extinct in areas when humans move in because we figured out how to coordinate and how to kill them so Yes, the tiger is still a threat.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
Matt Whited (he/him): But. Eventually... we're less scared of it. Like, oh man, a tiger killed Bob. We need to get a posse together and go fuck this guy up.
Hobb-Erik: Fuck. Fuck that. Yeah, let's go fuck that guy up.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Yeah, it's no longer a, oh gosh.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, this is Bloods and Crips shit, man.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, we need to be scared.
Hobb-Erik: Like, this is like, oh yeah, they on my territory.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hey guys.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I've been adding 5 % more iron to my spear tips. That motherfucker gonna bleed.
Hobb-Erik: ah Let's go cut a bitch.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. yeah Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, so it so it becomes, it like, I think that it becomes, like, that's that that agency and power, like, this is a stressor, but we got this.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright, I see.
Matt Whited (he/him): This is going to be something we overcome, not a chronic stressor that doesn't allow us to recover in between.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Matt Whited (he/him): And so that's that's where societal division is right now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Getting...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Matt, you, you. explained that so well. wonderfully and so eloquently what you just said. And I think it's clear to all of us listening that that is indeed the case, which is precisely why I've had to cut out the news.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I just had to. Like I still consume a bit. Very small doses. primarily in the morning while I'm having a coffee. I just read just like. read a couple headlines and then it's gone and it my wife turns on the tv at night and she watches the abc horrible news for 30 minutes that ends with a good story they give you They give you 29 minutes of absolute horror.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: horror. And then the very last story, the last 10 seconds at the end.
Hobb-Erik: They're like, ooh, a new panda was born.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes!
Hobb-Erik: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because they've learned. Through manipulation and repetition that you don't want to leave your audience with a bad taste in their mouth. And I was like, oh shit, this fucking manipulative news. So when she has that on, I just leave the room because I know for me. I know for me and my mental state and my stress, it does nothing good for me to hear it repeatedly throughout the day.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um i'm curious how everyone else handles uh their exposure to all this but So.
Matt Whited (he/him): Amen.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's pretty clear what the major stressors are today. And one last thing, Matt, before we turn to hobbies as a potential ah source for this. or source as a solution, but.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What does stress do to your body in a physiological sense?
Matt Whited (he/him): but Let me take one step back. The other major source of stress is loneliness, which you mentioned.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sure.
Matt Whited (he/him): And so I wanted to pay homage to that, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, please, please, yeah, yeah, yeah, please, please.
Matt Whited (he/him): And part of this is the societal division leads to loneliness, and there's clearly a connection there. It's not a one -to -one, but there's clearly a connection. But loneliness is the big thing. i won't um I won't. bore you with all the details, but I would say that like.
Matt Whited (he/him): like what The data were showing that at least half of people reported feeling isolated, left out, or lacking companionship. um it to a high degree uh so loneliness is the other one and that's again like I don't want to blame social media because social media is a tool. You can't blame the hammer.
Matt Whited (he/him): um But the way we've used social media. is to... uh create a lot of these divisions in group out group i mean i'm sure some of you have had some wonderful experiences on social media
Matt Whited (he/him): I really love like the woodworking subreddit, the beginner woodworking subreddit. And there's one on Facebook. It's probably a lot of the same people. It's just really satisfying to see people mentoring others, giving advice. There's a finishing subreddit that often leads to the sanded through veneer subreddit. which is one of my favorite things to say. It's like, congratulations, you are one of us. You have slash R, R slash sanded through veneer. And then you go and like everyone puts on their like.
Matt Whited (he/him): here's what i did i thought i could handle it i flew too close to the sun i sanded through the veneer um and so uh so like there are wonderful experiences on social media to be had but the challenges that it'ss it's using to fuel societal division. And I think it contributes to loneliness because it provides an alternative to the kind of social interaction that people need. I like the...
Matt Whited (he/him): the non -serious social interaction where it's like i don't know who that anonymous person is but i just gave them advice and they took it and that feels good and they gave me advice and we had a conversation and it was fun But then like I think at a certain point, people want those friendship relationships, those tighter like relationships. and if they don't have...
Matt Whited (he/him): experience with that, it's hard. like social media feels like. you're getting a little. chunk of it so it satisfies the itch, but... people are looking for larger relationships.
Hobb-Erik: Well, the the The woodworking side of social media, and this is the only one that I can really speak to. I hear your point about the larger social divisions that are happening because of it. But. um for whatever reason the community in which we exist has been.
Hobb-Erik: largely really supportive and wonderful. ah Now, granted. That said... ah I did. turn my comments off on youtube because fuck the trolls you know so like it it does go both ways but like This podcast was born out of me sliding into Paul's DMs, you know?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: ah My girlfriend slid into my DMs, you know? i And there's so many people that I have become. real life friends with because we started on social media and i i guess to your point those relationships evolved into more than just like.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: text relationships with people that live hours or countries away.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): And that's a skill. That is a skill. I don't have that skill. I got in touch with a Dungeons and Dragons group that was playing around um around Greenville because it's hard to find like a good D and &D group.
Matt Whited (he/him): the
Hobb-Erik: Hell yeah, man.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, we...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's my boy right there.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. The way we do it, like... like I have yet to beat the schedule boss with my friends. So I've gone like, I gotta, I gotta meet some randos. um So I get on and like. The guy that was putting it together was like, oh, hey, I'm this guy.
Matt Whited (he/him): Here's a picture of me. Here's who I am. Like, tell me about you. And I'm like. You're good at this. Like I literally talk to people for a living and I don't have those skills.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Now I'm, you know. he was he's 20 something years old he was raised in this right like so he developed those skills so not that's the challenge too is not everyone has those skills
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): And. Social media can be nasty. Like you said, the the anonymity and the trolls and all that kind of stuff. like it can get ugly and that can teach people not to put themselves out there.
Matt Whited (he/him): to kind of start those kind of things that turn from text to human relationships. But like you said.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: See, wait, i want to I want to... Point to that. Text to human relationships. Now, maybe it's just because I'm old. I'm Generation X. As we know, Eric, don't fucking smile at me.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, no, you oldest fuck, we get it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah But. I... But the real ah value. Here is not the online relationships. It's the real world. you You said earlier, Matt, we're not getting what we need or what you know we want. uh to help with loneliness, that to me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is human -to -human, real fucking world interactions, not through a screen.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The screen's okay as a proxy when you can't. But I tell you what, man. One night out with a friend face to face does wonders compared to some.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: texting. that you know on the phone
Hobb-Erik: I think everybody would largely agree with that, right? Like there might be some people who are like, well, I'm socially awkward, so it's easier over text and whatnot.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sure.
Hobb-Erik: And that's fine. I don't want to, again, not trying to yuck anybody's yum. um But I think we all understand the value of of human relationships versus anonymous text relationships.
Hobb-Erik: um What I'm curious about is the... though. Woodworking can be a thing. with. sitting in the loneliness space for a minute and and then developing relationships because of social media or a hobby.
Hobb-Erik: um I find it interesting. That. If you are a person with. free time and you might be lonely or prefer to be alone. You might develop a hobby.
Hobb-Erik: in woodworking. And that that could do one of two things, right? It could either... further isolate you. because you could spend all your time alone in your garage making things and fuck everybody else and i'm just going to post things on the internet and nobody gives me praise so i guess i'm bad or fuck the internet because they don't recognize my genius whatever it is or That can also then lead a socially awkward person.
Hobb-Erik: And i I think most of us in this space are pretty socially awkward.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Hobb-Erik: But you. you now have a common denominator with another person. you have something to talk about, you have something to do together, and it can lead to real human relationship in a way that like.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: ah whatever going to like a meetup at what you know like i don't fucking know like a speed dating around whatever it is like what do you what do you do for fun oh you knit that's cool i don't know anything about knitting uh i
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Yay.
Hobb-Erik: I read dudngeon car Dungeon Crawler Carl recently. No, you never heard of it? Okay, that's that's cool.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: you know like we have a thing in common that we can converse about
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, for sure. so Why are we? So then I ask. Alright, there's a loneliness epidemic. And Eric, you just gave a great solution. Actually, both of you gave great solutions. You say, oh, well, we we can reach out on social media people. And Eric, you're like, we could have hobbies that actually have something in common to to come together about. And then I ask, why doesn't that happen?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And my very first knee jerk reaction is because we work too much.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, see and where did
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: if you're if If all you do is work.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There's no availability for anything else. Just plain and simple. Sorry.
Matt Whited (he/him): And where did we just talk about? When we gave examples of where our sources of stress come. Where was it? It was work. It was work. And so you know work is great, like especially if it's something that is fulfilling and really like fits with who a part of who we are. then it's great to spend a lot of time with that, but we need that recovery time.
Matt Whited (he/him): We need that time for our mind, body, e etc. to recover from stress. And that's, I think, where hobbies and our free time come in. And they become something, when you think of it from a stress perspective, they become something that is not just like...
Matt Whited (he/him): The thing I do because I need a hobby or I need something that's not work because that's what people are supposed to do. It becomes an essential part of living. It is like an essential part of who we are to spend time in something else that is not just tied to the one thing we do to earn a living.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, Matt, I have a question. A friend of mine said this to me just last week, and I want to see your take on it. I said, Dude. you gotta work you you need more leisure time you're burnt out you're burning out Like you're having psychosomatic issues. Like it's not good. You're obviously you need a break. Like clearly I'm like, why don't you take some down? Why don't you take some leisure time?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And his answer to me. was I don't know what I would do with it. That's why I don't do it
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I... And I said, yeah, but it's the chicken and the egg. like If you... don't have the time, you won't figure out what to do with it. And he's like, yeah, but I won't make the time until I know what I'm gonna do with it first.
Matt Whited (he/him): Uh huh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So which is it? Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what's What's your reaction to that?
Matt Whited (he/him): If I was trying to help your friend. i would I would tell him, okay, you're first. assignment. if you agree to it. because i'm always like all about agency and and and stuff but what i want What I want him to do is I want my i want my patients and the people I'm trying to help to like. agree to do what i'm so i approach it that way but what i want him to agree to do is to Take.
Matt Whited (he/him): 45 minutes. A day? or a week or whatever he can fit in. He or she can fit in. to Um, He sheared them.
Matt Whited (he/him): whatever they can fit in to look at. what they might want to do. What hobby seems cool?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So just think about it.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, what hobby seems cool? Get on the internet. look at some shit um talk to ai as much as we talked about how ai is bad like hey ai give me some examples of hobbies that people do And a lot of them say, tell me a little bit about yourself and I'll associate, you know, your demographics with other people's demographics who do different. That's what it's doing in the background with other people that do different hobbies and I'll squanch them together and give you some more. examples.
Matt Whited (he/him): um That's what I would want that person to do. I want them to find something that they get moderately excited about that they can then try. Because I completely am. Uh, empathize.
Matt Whited (he/him): With the idea of like, oh, you need a break. You need to like, to I'm like, I don't want to go sit on a beach, sweat my ass off, read a shitty book.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): and get a sunburn like that is not
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, fuck the beach man The beach life ain't for me.
Matt Whited (he/him): Like for... Yeah, I mean I live in North Carolina.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are you serious, Eric?
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): I just committed
Hobb-Erik: Oh yeah. I can't, I can't.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, I just committed heresy living where I live. um But like. And like, that's fine. That's what some people want. They want that relaxation and they want that time alone. And I like quiet time.
Matt Whited (he/him): Like I go on, I'll go on meditation retreats and stuff like that. Like I like quiet time, but I'm doing something like my vacations that my family and I hook up. We take a little float plane into a cabin and we fish for like five, six days and they fly us out.
Hobb-Erik: Mm hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): And then we're exhausted when we get home. Cause all we did was move around the whole time, but it's like physically I'm tired, but like mentally I'm refreshed.
Hobb-Erik: Yep.
Matt Whited (he/him): I did a thing I love with people I love. ah And so. So... The... So there's like there's differences in that. the person you're talking about may be someone that needs something more active than just like Go chill somewhere. Take some time off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but i But what I hear you saying is you got to take the time to figure it out.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes. Yeah. So the first assignment, like sometimes there's a prerequisite. You can't just like jump into the life you want.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see. Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): Sometimes you got to like figure out what that is. So when there's a prerequisite, then the prerequisite becomes the goal. It's not like I'm trying to get 10 years down the line.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see. Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm trying to do this here. So like. Woodworking is an example. like I want to do the best dovetails. It's like, well. Step one. How the hell do you do a dovetail? And then step two.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): I gotta decide, am I hand cutting these puppies? uh or am i just getting a am i building a jig am i buying a jig like what am i doing how is this gonna happen before you you can't just jump to the goal.
Matt Whited (he/him): so you got to set those small pieces of it to get you there and i think that's that's an important piece
Hobb-Erik: It's a nice nice catch your natural bias like am I hand cutting these or am I just machining them but then you caught yourself ah So, so here I.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Well, and...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because... um
Matt Whited (he/him): I bought a jig. I didn't even make my own. ja I bought a jig. And I use it.
Hobb-Erik: ah ah
Matt Whited (he/him): We'll talk about my hobbies later, but I used it once.
Hobb-Erik: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): I made a a treasure, a pirate treasure chest for my nephew. um which I think he might still believe was a treasure chest he found. like we we We gave him a treasure map and did this whole thing on one of our fishing trips.
Hobb-Erik: Hell yeah, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You did it.
Hobb-Erik: Hell yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): It was sick. like It was a collaboration.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I love that.
Matt Whited (he/him): My mom... mom wrote the story i made the chest and then we did all the stuff and like it was it was a blast And I mean, he's like 13. I don't even think he believes in Santa Claus, but he thinks this treasure chest might be for pirates.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): And I just want the fucking credit. It is a nice goddamn treasure.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): It was the only thing I dovetailed. And it is sturdy as hell.
Hobb-Erik: One one day, one day when you're when you're gone, they're going to be like, you know, that Uncle Matt made that fucking pirate chest.
Matt Whited (he/him): Someday, someday he'll be like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. At... At his wedding, I'll be like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hey.
Matt Whited (he/him): Bruh.
Hobb-Erik: Yep. Yeah, big surprise.
Matt Whited (he/him): yeah I'll build another one.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bro, do you know how stressed out I was? Building that.
Matt Whited (he/him): i'll build it I'll be the ring bearer and I'll build another treasure chest.
Hobb-Erik: Well... Sad.
Matt Whited (he/him): And I'll be like does this look familiar?
Hobb-Erik: So... ah
Matt Whited (he/him): How do you think this one is compared to the last one? and see if he realizes it
Hobb-Erik: All right. Let me, let me ask you this. i feel like in the woodworking space and and we have listeners in all different um uh creative practices so it doesn't have to be limited to woodworking but i can't speak to the other ones this may be true of people in other creative fields um But.
Hobb-Erik: students that I have in woodworking. Other. friends that I know that... that are serious hobbyists in woodworking. tend to be people. who are high achieving in some way. in in other fields. And so.
Hobb-Erik: their hobby may start out as a way to relieve stress. And then it very quickly evolves into a stressful pursuit of being.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: well this isn't good enough like i need to be better this this one needs to be better than the last one or they have a set like the worst the worst fucking situation is that they have a spouse or a partner that.
Hobb-Erik: ah is always like, ah. I don't know. You know, like it's fine, I guess.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: And then you're like, well, what the. up Okay, I guess I just fucking suck nuts then. you know like what how am i supposed to How am I supposed to fucking navigate this?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: so um It... I don't even know what my question is. Like, how how does somebody... like that, navigate. Like let's take Paul's friend, for example. I'm imagining they will find a hobby and then in short time, that hobby will be a thing that they obsess about and is like, I am not the best.
Hobb-Erik: camper. I am not the best. fisherman i am not the best uh songwriter whatever it is how do you how do you navigate that
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Hobb-Erik: ah psychologically.
Matt Whited (he/him): Well... People have fun in different ways. So one thing I want to say about hobbies is we need those. One of the big reasons we need those is just the old adage, don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you put all of your joy and satisfaction and self -worth into work, and then one thing goes bad at work, it feels like your whole life is a wreck.
Matt Whited (he/him): If you have many areas of efficacy, many areas where you're like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh good point.
Matt Whited (he/him): i'm a good dad i am a good parent i am a good sibling i am a good woodworker i am a good this piece of this aspect of work i'm good this aspect of work and then something goes wrong in one of those you're like well fuck it i'm still pretty awesome Um...
Hobb-Erik: Okay, that's actually the name of this episode.
Matt Whited (he/him): You know. Like... Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fuck it.
Hobb-Erik: Fuck it, I'm still pretty awesome.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm still pretty awesome. Yeah, Matt, I've never thought about it like that.
Matt Whited (he/him): So... Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's brilliant. Like, of course, I know this in the back of my mind, but the way you crystallize it, I've never thought of it that way.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. And that is, I think that's an important piece to remember about, all about all of this. And that's why I think hobbies, um and that's why I wanted to come on this podcast because I'm like, I got some shit to say about hobbies. um And. That's why they're so important. this is ah This is a life and stress management strategy to have other things that you do and are interested in.
Matt Whited (he/him): And for some people. being interested in that kind of very like, this is my thing. I'm going to keep getting better and better and better and better and better at it until I don't necessarily need to be the best, but I need to know what good is and I need to chase good.
Matt Whited (he/him): And some people are going to be like that. They rule social media. Those are the people you see the most on social media of like. Like when you go to beginner woodworking and you see this piece that is like.
Matt Whited (he/him): When did you start? And where did you study to do this beginner woodworking?
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): you know And I've seen people on beginner woodworking be like. This is beautiful. please post it elsewhere. this is this is like This is for people who are like, here's one of the first pieces, critique, help me out. like what What can I do better?
Matt Whited (he/him): So, but but those folks are great. That is how they engage with hobbies. It's not a problem till it's a problem. Like you said, when they're like. i'm not the best at this i need to be the best like someone someone criticized me and now it's not fun or worse yet they're like i started woodworking i bought a bunch of things now i need to sell this i bet i could sell some things at craft shows And for some people.
Matt Whited (he/him): Making. 50. Like. coffee stirrers and um cutting boards is fun as hell. Like, oh, I love optimizing my creation process, right? I love trying different patterns of the same thing. I love making them different sizes. That's going to be great for some people. That literally sounds like hell to me.
Matt Whited (he/him): i can I don't want to do the same thing over and over and over and over. like i just don't like That appeals to me not at all. But the challenge of that is real appealing to other people. So you've got to find the match of the form of the hobby with what brings you joy and satisfaction.
Matt Whited (he/him): For me, it's exploration. I am the most frivolous hobbyist. That. around like i um i have an archery target out back because at some point i needed to learn backyard archery um And then I built, I have a fishing boat that I decided I'm going to rip everything out of it because it's it's been in my family for years.
Hobb-Erik: Hell yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm like, I'm going to take out all of the, this is like a John boat, the ubiquitous like. green duck boat you know so it's got like some decking and stuff and it's like old like i pulled it out and i was like That's rotting.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): And there's where that thing I dropped in 1985 went. um And so, you know, so i'm I'm cleaning it out and I'm redoing it. And my family's like, just take it out, man. I'm like.
Matt Whited (he/him): It's cool. I've got a pond by my house. I fish there. Like the fun part of this for me is redoing this thing. And I've got to do electrical. I've got to do like finishing on the wood floor. I've got to do like some, I don't like carpet. So I'm doing it without carpet. That's my challenge to myself. So anyway, like these are like these, this is what excites me learning a new thing and doing it.
Matt Whited (he/him): once or twice.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): And then to me, like. As I. As soon as I start to lean toward. If I do this seven more times, I'll get better and better. i'm like i'm not i'm not into it like what i'm not gonna sell it i'm not gonna put it on display i'm not i just want to learn a skill Apply it and be like that was so cool. Now I can do that okay. You know, I don't need to be, I don't need to do it well. That's my job. In my job, I need to do everything well. It needs to look good. I want to keep getting better at it.
Matt Whited (he/him): And so. I need something to counteract that. Other people like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
Matt Whited (he/him): the same thing right like they want to attack their job and their hobby in the same way and become really, really good at it and do it a bunch of times over. And that's awesome too, if it works for you. But when you start to feel that.
Matt Whited (he/him): My hobby is now my job. I feel pressure about it. I don't feel. joy and and and and pleasantness, then that's a symptom that my hobby is a source of stress.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, but that... In that case, when that happens, it sounds to me like that person didn't really know themselves and know what they were getting into in terms of the hobby.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that's why it turns stressful. You, Matt. are i i'm not surprised being a phd psychologist very very self -aware very self -actualized you know yourself and you you seem to curate your hobbies in a way that plays to what you know about yourself and where you're happiest.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: where it seems like other people are getting into trouble is they picked a hobby that seemed fun, but they didn't they either didn't know what they were getting themselves into and it turned that corner and it became a source of stress.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah or they didn't really know themselves in the first place. Is that?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. I mean, it sounds like I know myself, but honestly, this is post all post hoc observation.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Accurate?
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Like this is me looking back on what made me happy and what didn't. And like when someone asked me like, oh, you should make a bunch of those and sell them.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: m
Matt Whited (he/him): And I was like, like, that sounds awful. Like, and like, okay, why did I react that way? So it's me looking at what happened more so than. like knowing myself ahead of time like I didn't choose these hobbies based on my deep inner knowledge of myself.
Matt Whited (he/him): I tried shit. And then looking back on it, I have an idea of works because I've tried a bunch of shit.
Hobb-Erik: a
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see. All right, so I basically gave you too much credit.
Hobb-Erik: yeah yeah
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, exactly, exactly. well and i want Yeah, I want people to know that because like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Hobb-Erik: You know...
Matt Whited (he/him): That's how you do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Matt Whited (he/him): You experiment. Life is experiment after experiment. And there are no failed experiments. do They just have sometimes the results you don't want. But you learn something from that.
Hobb-Erik: You know who who I know for a fact has never once failed at anything in his life? um our Lord and Savior. William Teresa Burkle of WTB Woodworking. And you know, listen, I learned recently, this is a fun fact. um I learned his middle name is not actually Teresa.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It is.
Hobb-Erik: is it His middle name, believe it or not. is ah turkey. William Turkey Burkle. But I don't know if he legally just changed that because Thanksgiving is coming up and he wants to just be holiday appropriate.
Matt Whited (he/him): laughter
Hobb-Erik: So if you could visit ah W. Turkey Burkle. at uh 390 pike road and you can get a whole bunch of free shit matt let me ask you a question buddy Do you know what a Muffel MT -55 18 MBL?
Hobb-Erik: Yes.
Matt Whited (he/him): I do not.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Hobb-Erik: That's good. I've been reading this fucking ad clip for four or five episodes now. I still don't know what it is. It's a cordless plunge track saw. So you can get one of those over there. You know what a Shaper Origin is?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes, actually, CNC, is that the?
Hobb-Erik: Excellent.
Matt Whited (he/him): at movable cnc yeah
Hobb-Erik: That's yes. and And I'm only just now realizing that when this episode airs, ah those will no longer be available. So disregard that question. ah love me Let me ask you about a couple other things.
Hobb-Erik: going on here. How do you feel about microjigs?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric.
Hobb-Erik: You know, like the gripper.
Matt Whited (he/him): The gripper?
Hobb-Erik: Because those are on sale.
Matt Whited (he/him): I don't, well. I have not evolved. to table saws yet. um I have an old one. That I was like, oh, I have this old one a buddy gave me.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'll get used to it and start, you know, using it. And then I watched table saw safety videos and I was like, I'll stick with my miter saw and my little.
Hobb-Erik: um Sounds.
Matt Whited (he/him): My my circular saw on the floor for panel goods.
Hobb-Erik: You know what?
Matt Whited (he/him): and
Hobb-Erik: it It sounds like you need a MFL MT5518MBL, buddy.
Matt Whited (he/him): i think it I think you're absolutely right.
Hobb-Erik: you need You need to enter that giveaway.
Matt Whited (he/him): And I think... And I think I need... A lot of g grippers.
Hobb-Erik: you need a lot I mean, listen, we could all use a double griper if you know what I mean.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm I... uh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Who doesn't need?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: and ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Absolutely.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye, Eric.
Hobb-Erik: I don't, I was just talking about micro jig. I don't know what you're giggling about over there, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Macro jig.
Hobb-Erik: ah So macro jig is that feels.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah
Hobb-Erik: Patent pending. Um, That's ah that's all I got. Paul, what else is going on with you? but Anything you want to add about WTB?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, I was thinking. I was thinking... William. ah ah Tryptophan. Burkle, right? Isn't the tryptophan in the turkey?
Hobb-Erik: William Tryptophan Burkle.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right? Like, isn't that the amino acid? Everyone says, oh, that's why you're so so that's why you're so sleepy.
Hobb-Erik: That makes him sound like he's a drug dealer though. Like. He's dealing, it's like, yo, if you need you need a trip, why don't you go see my boy Billy B, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, but. What?
Matt Whited (he/him): maybe Maybe he's just so chill and quiet.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eh.
Matt Whited (he/him): and and falls asleep.
Hobb-Erik: That is the opposite of what Bill Burkle is.
Matt Whited (he/him): falls asleep during football games that he's just like, that's his that's his nickname.
Hobb-Erik: You. If you're ever in a room with Bill Burkle, you will know you're in a goddamn room with Bill Burkle.
Matt Whited (he/him): Okay.
Hobb-Erik: So timid and quiet is not how I would describe him in any way, shape, or form.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, William Tryptophan Burkle.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um, Everyone thinks that's why we get sleepy at. ah Thanksgiving, Turkey Day, but I looked up how much tryptophan you would have to eat to actually induce some sort of sleepiness.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like something like 50 pounds of turkey. So that's just an urban myth.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Isn't it? Isn't it just the fact that we overeat and then lie on the couch for like hours?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Yes.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There's nothing to do other than watch football and overeat and feel fat.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So it's like the perfect.
Hobb-Erik: All the blood is in your stomach.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: You're fucking loaded up on pie.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yep. ah
Hobb-Erik: There's nothing to do but nap.
Matt Whited (he/him): Your body's like, listen.
Hobb-Erik: You know, nobody.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah that's That's it.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm shutting down.
Hobb-Erik: Nobody gets done with with Thanksgiving and then they're like, I feel sexy.
Matt Whited (he/him): I got to digest this shit. doesn't it
Hobb-Erik: Like, what are you doing later?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: h
Hobb-Erik: No, it's like I got to nap this shit off.
Matt Whited (he/him): No. Yeah. Yep.
Hobb-Erik: Well, anyway, so go to WTUNRanking .com ah or visit 390 Pike Road, Unit 2 in Huntington Valley, PA.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: William Turkey Burkle.
Hobb-Erik: Well, I like Turkey Burke.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
Matt Whited (he/him): Well.
Hobb-Erik: Turkey Burkle has a nice like cadence to it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It does it does
Hobb-Erik: Tryptophan Burkle, you know, like it's it doesn't it doesn't ring the same.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No. No, sorry
Matt Whited (he/him): Well, I would bet that William William Turkey Burkle on his in his woodworking hobbyism, if it's even a hobby.
Hobb-Erik: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Matt Whited (he/him): anymore would greatly enjoy. um The Journey. and not the destination of woodworking. And I think that is the key.
Hobb-Erik: Oh, yeah, he's definitely.
Matt Whited (he/him): That is the key to a good hobby.
Hobb-Erik: He's He's a Miley Cyrus kind of fella.
Matt Whited (he/him): Okay.
Hobb-Erik: It's the climb. You know?
Matt Whited (he/him): When you... when
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wait, wait. Matt, don't don't wait. I don't want to gloss over what you just said. That was a very important sentence. Say that again.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, you got to enjoy the journey and the destination.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: about the journey and the destination.
Matt Whited (he/him): of Woodworking, I think, is the best example of this because you are spending. Every hour. of your weekend doing one piece that is gonna you know because there's no choice in woodworking of i'm just gonna blast this out at a certain point You've got to let stuff dry.
Matt Whited (he/him): you've got to do a fin and you can fuck your entire finish a certain types of finishes you all know better than me probably you can fuck your whole finish by doing a coat too quick or not taking into account the humidity and all that kind of stuff so you're spending all this time over a bunch of time if you don't enjoy that process like if you don't like sanding Or at least...
Matt Whited (he/him): tolerate sanding or at least appreciate what you get from good sanding behavior you're not going to enjoy what like you're just waiting until the end piece and that is so far off
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): that it's not it's you got to enjoy that part and I think that's part of knowing what a good hobby is for you it's like I enjoy most of the aspects of this
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, I was going to ask you. At. What are some... ways you think of woodworking as stress relieving? And what are some ways that you think that woodworking adds to stress? And I want you to answer that question.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As you. the professional woodworker and for maybe a listener who's just Not that. you know not that far into the hobby yet
Hobb-Erik: I think that's fair. um i i've been I've been trying not to go down the road of like. how it changes when you become a professional or a semi -professional because we're we're thinking about it mostly in the hobby. But so for me.
Hobb-Erik: What were the questions? How does it add to the stress and and how does it relieve stress?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well... Well, actually, actually the the way you phrased that, let let me change my question slightly. Start from the point of view of a new woodworker.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What do you think was... ah stress relieving when you first were woodworking and what was stress causing and then roll that forward to today. as a professional
Hobb-Erik: Okay. So... As a... New hobbyist. I think the thing. that was most stress relieving is you can you can kind of shut out the world and all of the stresses that are going on and just hyper fixate on a thing.
Hobb-Erik: and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hard agree.
Hobb-Erik: And it's a, it's a thing like you can, you can be the master of a small domain, you know? And there's so, when you're new, there's so many things to master that like, I think some people can be overwhelmed by it, but for me, it just meant there were so many milestones to hit.
Hobb-Erik: You know, it was so like, I mean, the first time you get a fucking plane to like sharpened and set properly and it's taken a shaving, you blast one out and wait for it to dry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah It's so good.
Hobb-Erik: Right. Like it's just all of a sudden you're like, oh, let's go. uh the first time you cut a dovetail the first time you you finish a project the first time you start to see Like you. you see something on the internet, you read a book and you you start to understand a technique and then you see that actually translate into you're seeing what they want you to see. Like there's all of these things that can, it's empowering, right? It is, you can feel yourself.
Hobb-Erik: stressing your, your skillset. in a good way. and and ultimately growing as a human being. Um, The way that it was stressful, I think.
Hobb-Erik: uh for me at that time Um, Like the... the financial aspect of like woodworking is a fucking expensive hobby man you know and that you're constantly being sold.
Hobb-Erik: jigs tools fixtures that yeah of course you need this in order to accomplish x and and so part of the job as a hobbyist is to start to discern um truth from bullshit.
Hobb-Erik: And that's a really hard thing to do because you're starting from a place of ignorance and ignorance. And how can you tell who's telling the truth and who's lying if there's no barometer for?
Hobb-Erik: you know, ah truth or accuracy. So that's a stressful thing. um the moment that you put your work in front of. other people's eyeballs for the first time.
Hobb-Erik: incredibly stressful thing. Because you can be the master of a domain in your garage. And like nobody gives a fuck. And then the second, like whatever it is, youre you're fucking your mom, your wife, your your sibling, your child, they come in and they look at it.
Hobb-Erik: Now, all of a sudden you're like. fuck I was like Is it good enough for them to like, you know, like, I don't, I have no idea. I have no idea if it's good. um And you just kind of hope and you can be excited and proud of it, but that doesn't mean that you're confident that they're going to like it.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Hobb-Erik: um So. As... Time went by. I was also from the very beginning, like I knew that this was ah what I was going to do professionally. So those stressors, I think part of like the financial aspect of it, part of the reason that that was a stressor was because I was like.
Hobb-Erik: Like I can't run a shop. on a fucking craftsman table saw and a rigid box lunchbox planner you know like i i know i have to evolve um and i didn't know what time scale that was But time goes on and and I get better and I go to school and and I open a business and I close a business and I teach and and I move locations, et cetera, et cetera. And nowadays.
Hobb-Erik: I think the things that are. Stressful. are less about the craft and more about the inevitable business surrounding the craft. You know, like I'm a self -employed human being. I don't the only person that takes any of the work off my plate at all is ah my video editor who I hired to do about.
Hobb-Erik: I'd say... 60 to 80 % cuts of, of my video. Right. Like she, she blocks it out for me basically. And that's not to diminish her skillset. That's just because I'm OCD and I want to like tweak things and and get things just right before I release a video. But other than that, like.
Hobb-Erik: Fucking. responding to emails, doing the taxes, making the phone calls, scheduling meetings, scheduling classes. ah the business All the business shit that's just like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: business business business
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: ah you know Um, and then there's the money aspects out of it of like okay where can i buy time to take time off. because when i take time i don't get pto
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Hobb-Erik: So.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
Hobb-Erik: If I take time off, I'm not making money. you know
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Um, But the... the joys of it or the stress reliever components of it. Um, I think there's there's two things i'm a very social person by nature and while i enjoy quietude.
Hobb-Erik: in in reflection i think that's part of the reason i like camping is part of the reason i like hiking um
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Hobb-Erik: It's part of the reason. I like having a dog because I can talk to him and he doesn't talk back. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't want to converse.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: He just wants to like fucking hang and like box sometimes, you know? um But. ah If I were locked in a shop by myself all the time, I would be miserable.
Hobb-Erik: Uh, And so having a shopmate. who also just happens to be one of my best friends on the planet which is a wonderful thing um Like. We'll just hang out in the shop and shoot the shit for hours on on like a Tuesday when when we probably quote unquote should be working, you know, but we just like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: catch up about life we fucking ask one another questions about like oh i've got this thing i'm not quite sure where it's going how do i navigate this um et cetera, et cetera. So, so having that social, that human social aspect of it on a day -to -day is super important and, and a benefit that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: I could not go back to not having that. um but also the way my... like annual schedule kind of breaks up. It I'm constantly. doing something else which can be difficult The start and stops of it can be difficult because you can't gain momentum.
Hobb-Erik: If you know, like I've got three weeks at home and then I'm in New York and then I've got a week at home and then I'm in Maine and then I've got two months at home and then I'm in Indiana.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: um However, I think that also. It. One of the things that I realized, like once I got out of school, that was kind of a difficult adjustment. When you're in school, you're always looking.
Hobb-Erik: uh in the next six to eight weeks to the next.
Matt Whited (he/him): mm -hmm
Hobb-Erik: milestone right whether that's like the end of a quarter the end of a semester a holiday a project due whatever it is um and then all of a sudden i remember being in my 20s And it was just like.
Hobb-Erik: what's the next milestone? Like, what am I? Where do I go? What am I looking? towards you know um
Matt Whited (he/him): There's no syllabus for this.
Hobb-Erik: There's no syllabus for it. There's nothing to... incentivize me to work hard because there's no concrete goal to move toward. you know um
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Hobb-Erik: And, and so having those things on the schedule that are constantly like, okay, I've got three weeks and then I'm teaching in Indiana and I've got to like figure out the syllabus. I've got to run a couple of like practice joints. I've got to make a video in that time.
Hobb-Erik: Um, I think some people. where the stress of that, and I'm not saying it's not stressful, it certainly can be. But it's also, there's always Matt, to your point, there's always something to figure out.
Hobb-Erik: and if i did the same thing over and over again i would be bored out of my fucking mind
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Hey.
Hobb-Erik: So constantly having that new stimuli of like, oh, how am I going to solve this problem? I've got this, I've got a class coming up. I've never taught it before. I promised them a class on taper bent lambs. What the fuck am I going to design?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: You know, let's go, let's figure it out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So real briefly, Eric. My experience mirrors yours, where when I first started woodworking. I thought. I'm meeting all these new people and the people in my life are are are reflecting on the things I make very positively.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that's super reinforcing when your friends are like, dude, that's really cool. Could you make me one? When you first get into it, and I'm sure all the listeners know what I'm talking about. It's so reinforcing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's so exciting.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And. Also, to your point, Eric. There's so much to learn that you're just in a flow state. All. The. time. Right. You're in your shop.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Every new thing seems like a totally interesting new journey. you Hours go by like minutes for years. Honestly. And it's so fun. The challenges are seem endless. The learning is so satisfying and not just learning.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Easy things, it's learning difficult things, which adds to a sense of satisfaction because so there's a little bit of suffering in there when you like fuck it up. But then you achieve that and you get a deep sense of progress and satisfaction. So that's all the great things, you know, the hobby brought. Now on the negative side.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The money was definitely a... a concern because what if you lose the itch. And now you're 10 ,000, 20 ,000 deep. into a shop.
Hobb-Erik: and And what do you do with all this fucking equipment?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right?
Hobb-Erik: like how How do you sell large equipment?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right. So the money was was a big concern. Where do I get the wood was a big concern. And where do I keep it? How do I find interesting wood that was like, always like, Oh, shit, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? uh criticism especially online, because your friends are going to criticize you in real life, but the online trolls will, or online forums. The criticism turned a negative. Social media made me feel. inferior A lot.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, I see that motherfucker is doing real great stuff. And I'm, you know, I thought I was good until I saw that. So that social media and then. selling. that gave me that had my my stomach in knots the idea of selling something what do i price it at what if it doesn't sell what if everyone notices it didn't sell does that mean it's not good does that mean i don't have a ah good sense of design
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So those were the negatives that I was dealing with. And what's really interesting is because I wrote these down. And I was looking at the negatives. And I asked myself, are those still negatives today? for me now that I'm 20 years in.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The money. Is the money a negative? No. I have the shop. I've been using it for 20 years Not a negative anymore. it's already It's gone. That's not an issue anymore. Number two, the criticism.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I very very... I almost never get criticized online. I don't know why if I just have a nice group of friends on Instagram. or my audience, or the things I make are so...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: out of the norm that people don't even know what to say about it. I think maybe that's part of it. I don't make things a lot of other people make. Whereas if you if you make something that everyone makes, they can... There's a comparator. They can criticize, oh, that cutting board sucks, or that chair is not better. But when you make one -off, very unusual items, it's hard to compare, so it's hard to criticize.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah The social media component, I've learned how to do social media at a decent level. I'm not. obviously i'm not the best at i give myself a b minus but i'm okay so that's kind of gone selling things. I've sold many, many, many things and I've demonstrated that I have a buying audience now. So that concern is gone.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And finally, good wood. I have a ton of great wood. I found the sources. I bit the book.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, you do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So, so what's Eric.
Hobb-Erik: I don't know. ah
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm glad that didn't stay laying on the table.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: B.
Matt Whited (he/him): That needed to be taken advantage of.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah he oh I try not to lay it on the table.
Matt Whited (he/him): it
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um Uh, All of the negatives that I had when I was early on have largely disappeared now 20 years into it. And so honestly.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It has become more enjoyable with time for me because i but I don't have the business part that you have. But the other things that used to hang me up are largely gone. So it's kind of like, wow.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah No wonder this hobby feels so fucking fun all the time because the things that used to eat at me stress me. are now largely gone. Bye.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just my observation.
Hobb-Erik: Do you do you find it? any less motivation because some of the stressors are no longer in play. Like you're in the shop less than you used to be.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Yes, because the learning component used to drag me in by my shirt, right?
Hobb-Erik: Mm -hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It would just like grab me by the collar and be like, you got to figure this out. Right? And now I figured so much out. So sometimes that curiosity component isn't there and it just feels like kind of work.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so yeah, I go in the shop, I'd say less than I used to when I was in a flow state.
Matt Whited (he/him): I need to pause for a second And, you know, you two fucks just complimented me on being a psychologist and having all this great self -knowledge and all this kind of shit. You two just dropped like an incredible amount of like, here's what I've learned about myself, about what speaks to me about it, about the pluses and minus.
Hobb-Erik: Oh, well we just love to hear ourselves talk, you know?
Matt Whited (he/him): yeah But like, yeah, yeah. But like you. This is what I mean when I say this is not. ah something that you need to have some special skill to access you just do shit and look at how you feel about it And when you can look back on like. this went well, this didn't, this went well, this didn't. What do I do now moving into the future?
Matt Whited (he/him): Like that's all it is. And y 'all just like. Nailed it. like Like the years of experience you have, you're looking back on this and saying, here's what made me stressed. Here's what made me not up. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. like you got You got it all there. like it's not it's not um It's not some mysterious skill or ability because you all just nailed it.
Hobb-Erik: I'm going to let my therapist know that you gave me the the thumbs up on that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks, man.
Hobb-Erik: um get Can I ask one more question? um
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: So. I knew when I opened my business back up and went full -time again, I didn't want to. ah Because I know that running a business is not a thing that I like to do. It's not a thing I enjoy.
Hobb-Erik: But... In order to do the thing that I do want to do with my life. uh professionally and with the majority of my time That's just a component that I have to accept is there.
Hobb-Erik: Is that. a and in in I... I'm not even 100 % sure what my my question is. I. I have tried, I'm not just trying to like pat myself on the dick and be like, look how cool I am.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah
Hobb-Erik: ah is Is it laying on the table, baby?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Lay it on the table when you pat it. i
Hobb-Erik: um Yeah. I feel like there is a psychological thing that happens when you understand that a stressor is present and you accept it as the stressor that it is, that it makes it less stressful. Is that is that a...
Hobb-Erik: Is that a thing or am I just making that up?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes, I think acceptance is actually extremely powerful because acceptance, I just did a talk on this like.
Hobb-Erik: Like if.
Matt Whited (he/him): a few hours ago honestly like over in people this is with people who've had heart attacks and and and emphysema and they're and they're trying to like get back into life and i'm and And I talked to him like acceptance is just when you stop fighting reality.
Hobb-Erik: Okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): Acceptance is when you say, this is the reality. And as soon as you do that, you can be like, well, here's the solution to this shitty reality. um Or this reality ain't as bad as I thought. I've just been running away from it for so long. I didn't take the time to understand what it actually is.
Matt Whited (he/him): And that's the thing, like there's no, there's no perfect life that is free of stress or free of problems. And, you know, like you get to do. something you love because you run a business out of it.
Matt Whited (he/him): um a business of it and the business stuff like you don't have to be great at it you just have to be good enough to be able to do your thing And that's the goal. other people are like i want to make as much money as possible doing my thing and then you got to be like then you got to take a different perspective But it depends on your goals, what you want, what feels good to you.
Matt Whited (he/him): um And so like you, what you're saying is like, I accept this stress of business running because it gives me access to all this wonderful shit that makes me really happy and satisfied.
Hobb-Erik: Well, and. And it makes it it makes the stressful part less stressful to just...
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Except that, like, that is what, it like, there's no change in it.
Matt Whited (he/him): Okay.
Hobb-Erik: like Emails might be boring as fuck, but like. i'll figure out i'll take i'll take 30 minutes drink my coffee in the morning and just like knock them out you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It is what it is.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. What? I told my patients today, like you're out there exercising and some days exercise feels like shit, especially when you have a heart condition. um Exercise feels like shit, but you're not just exercising for your health, which is what someone told you you need to do. You're exercising for your family so you can spend more time with them. You're exercising for your independence so you can go shopping by yourself and you don't have to worry about getting tired. You're exercising for...
Matt Whited (he/him): uh for your friends so you can spend more time with them and give them all the wonderful things that you have like sometimes things that feel like ass. are in service of other values of other things that we really really care about and so they're tied in with that and that's what makes them less stressful like you're saying like this this i feel less stressed about running a business because it gives me all this other stuff like if it didn't give you all that other stuff it would not feel good
Hobb-Erik: yeah fuck that noise i would never respond to another email again
Matt Whited (he/him): See? Right, exactly. So like that part is like what? what gives you access so it's in service of all the wonderful things you get from woodworking and so that makes it less of a stressor
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Matt, you're so fucking good. actually like I was just smiling as you said that.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm like, my goodness, he's so right. I just want to i just want to listen to all that again. can you give Can you give us, in a general sense now, you know ah what's actually, Eric.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Just an observation about the psychologists we've had on this show, right?
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um. Of course, our resident psychologist, Sherry, right?
Hobb-Erik: Mm -hmm
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then we had Brad now twice.
Hobb-Erik: Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And and now Matt. And Matt ah knows Sherry. Matt used to work in Sherry's lab.
Matt Whited (he/him): I know Brad really well too.
Hobb-Erik: Do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah So... So it's like it's just one incestuous psychology network on the show.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: Uh...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So what I was going to tell you is that what I noticed about all three of them. without asking them They took an issue and I said, okay, so, so whether it's, you know, whatever the issue is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All three of them came. By defining the problem, talking in depth about it, and all three came with solutions.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now, I don't know, like, because you and I, sometimes we do a show where we just talk about something. And just with. it It turns off like we just vent about it.
Hobb-Erik: I don't know what you're talking about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Discuss it. Right?
Hobb-Erik: I'm, I'm so organized and structure driven.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, right like we just like dig in about it and we exhaust ourselves talking about it.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then we're just like, okay, well, I guess that's all I had to say, but.
Hobb-Erik: Well, go fuck yourself. Figure it out on your stones, you know?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah but all the psychologists come so fucking thought out. And so Just like our other psychologist, Matt, comes with a whole set of ideas about what to do. about stress. So Matt.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Floor's yours, buddy.
Matt Whited (he/him): yeah so you know thanks for giving me the space for this i just i do want to emphasize that every psychologist is just as fucked up as everybody else in fact i would argue
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): knowing many psychologists that some of us are more fucked up than everybody else, but we're drawn to this because we like the solutions that we use them. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean...
Matt Whited (he/him): In fact, it pisses me off when I get psychologists. They're like, oh, I'm so burnt out. And I'm just like, there's so much work. And I'm like, are you doing any self -care? Which we know what it is. And they're like, well, I don't have time. I'm like, what would you tell a patient if they said that to you?
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): like you know And I do the same thing. So like, I can't like I can't take any like I'm not special in this. Other people have told me that exact thing. Like, are you doing self -care? I'm like. No.
Matt Whited (he/him): like oh yeah well ah You know what that means better than anyone else?
Hobb-Erik: so
Matt Whited (he/him): like Yes, I do. Fucking hell. And then I go, you know. so um So the keys to managing stress are this is a dynamic process. You will always feel stress at some point.
Matt Whited (he/him): as long as it's the you know we've talked about how you know whether this is like good stress I can overcome, or whether it's something that's hanging around and exhausting me. So we've talked a bit about that.
Matt Whited (he/him): The solutions to help give you more power, more resilience, more ability to take that stress and use it to solve problems as opposed to it being a problem in and of itself. I took notes on a few things, but I do want to emphasize that hobbies and balance and finding things that are meaningful to you and doing them is one of the biggest ways to manage stress. Then you're not putting all your eggs into one basket. Something goes wrong in one area. You got something to go back to. I ruin a woodworking project, which happens a lot.
Matt Whited (he/him): ah I throw the wood around because that's how I deal with things when no one else is around to see it. So they're not scared of my tossing wood. And then I come back and like I do something else. And there's so much else in my life that's going fun, that is fun and cool that I just do that. I recover. I forget that stress. um I can come back to the shop and be like, all right.
Matt Whited (he/him): I can do this. The only place I can get wood is fucking Lowe's. There's an infinite supply. I didn't just waste something that was like. like precious to me, my my Brazilian would or whatever the hell y 'all.
Matt Whited (he/him): fancy shit y 'all use.
Hobb-Erik: but
Matt Whited (he/him): I use oak.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): I use oak.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): and that is it um sometimes popular if i'm gonna paint it like that's that's that's what i'm doing um so you know find the things that are meaningful to you and engage in them that is the best way to conquer stress
Hobb-Erik: Can I... I just want to ask... for you to define meaningful. Because I think about meaning and and value. a lot. like is it is it inherently meaningful is it spiritually meaningful um
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Hobb-Erik: or Like, so I guess. How do you define meaningful in this way? Is it something that brings you joy? Is it something that you find? you're You're adding value to the world. What is it?
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. um it adds value to you. So when you feel like this is... When you do something and you feel like this is who I am. That's something that's value that's a value. That's something meaningful.
Matt Whited (he/him): um I'm avoiding the word. I do so much depression work. I'm avoiding the word joy.
Hobb-Erik: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): I think that's a piece of it. You should do things that bring you joy, but that's not the only thing. that's like Old school behavioral depression treatment was like, do more pleasant activities. And all the patients were like. I have a fucking job.
Matt Whited (he/him): um you know like Where do I fit all these fun things in that are supposed to cure my depression? And it's not about... Um, things that just bring you joy, although that's part of it. It's about things that...
Matt Whited (he/him): that make you feel like yourself, that bring you pride in who you are, that you feel like the way the kids would say it. So for you, Eric, um that they feel like they feel like they're living their best life. Like when you're doing the things that are like, this is the life I want, and you're doing pieces of those, that's a value or a meaningful hobby.
Matt Whited (he/him): like one of my values is making shit i can use like i don't make it because of aesthetics. I don't like, that's not who I am. I love appreciating that stuff. but it's not who I am. I like making shit I can use.
Matt Whited (he/him): That's why woodworking drew me in. That's why the next thing I'll do is learn how to, I've i've been all over the... the internet on this, I'm going to learn how to make my own bow, um like archery bow.
Hobb-Erik: Hell yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): You know, I really want to do that. And I'm going to fuck up the first few and I'll be wearing my safety goggles because they're going to explode in my face. Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Yes.
Hobb-Erik: Got you right here, buddy.
Matt Whited (he/him): See, like. That shit. I want to do that.
Hobb-Erik: Hell yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): That's my next thing once I finish my boat Uh, like that's my next thing.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): So like I want, I, you know, those making stuff I can use, but you know what else is good? A really fucking good spreadsheet where like it calculates everything I want and it changes color based on what's happening.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): Like that makes me feel inordinately good. Like no one should derive the type of pleasure that I do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What a nerd.
Matt Whited (he/him): And I'm not an advanced user of Excel or anything, but like that functionality makes me feel really good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's awesome.
Hobb-Erik: m
Matt Whited (he/him): making shit I can use as a core value to me. um And so I know I need that in my life. And sometimes what's accessible is a spreadsheet. Sometimes I'm redoing a boat. I'm making a someday making a bow. So.
Matt Whited (he/him): that's how you know it's valuable. If you do something or the idea of it or doing a little bit of it brings you like a stupid amount of pleasure or a stupid amount of like like satisfaction with who you are, then you know, okay, I'm onto something here. And I like to label them. you know I label that value as making shit I can use. um And so I know that if I pursue that,
Matt Whited (he/him): That's going to bring me.
Matt Whited (he/him): joy and satisfaction now i need to have a bunch of other ones to uh gaining knowledge and giving it away that's the educator in me i love learning shit i love even more turning around and giving that to people um that is something that's why i wanted that's why when you said will you do this i'm like fuck yeah i'll do this uh this sounds like great like i'd love to to to chat with like my people like people who are like me for one but also i'd love to chat about stuff that i bring to it that's from a different world than this aspect of me so that's what i mean when i say meaningful like it's It's individually.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): kind of defined um and the The way to figure it out is, again, to experiment, to think about who am I? What do I like? What do I love? What's important to me? And there are lists of values and stuff like that online you can find, but they're really yours.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah. i And I don't want to derail the conversation about solutions. I guess I was just curious if there are. kind of universal not universal values i guess i'm thinking about it like so my degree is in religion and philosophy because i'm a millennial and we have to waste a hundred thousand dollars um But.
Matt Whited (he/him): Hehehehe.
Hobb-Erik: But. i If you zoom out far enough. across religions there seems to be four or five core values that individuals and societies on the whole were like.
Hobb-Erik: maybe murder is not good like maybe maybe it doesn't help sustain a population right like maybe maybe uh constantly cheating on your spouse and making them jealous to the point where they beat the shit out of you is like that's not a good way to sustain a population right um so i i guess i was thinking about that psychologically like
Matt Whited (he/him): ah Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Hobb-Erik: One of the things that you said was figuring out. what What brings you joy, for lack of a better way to phrase it? piques your interest.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And meaning.
Hobb-Erik: and meaning but also You. giving back, like giving giving what you have away for free. bring some value and meaning.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Hobb-Erik: I feel much the same way. Paul, I know you feel much the same way. I guess that's what I was trying to. to pick out with the the meaning. or the value.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. I think that those... ah You're asking a sociologist questions and I'm a psychologist.
Hobb-Erik: No.
Matt Whited (he/him): um So I don't know the answer to your question if there are universal ones. I assume that there are not And I look for what my...
Hobb-Erik: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): Me as an individual the people in front of me what they value I was also raised by two public school teachers. I can't stop. teaching people shit. um I just can't. It is part of who I am and I love it and it feels good.
Matt Whited (he/him): And I want to learn what someone has to give. And I want to. teach them what I have. And then I want to take that and share it with other people. Like that is just. I don't know why, but that's what I do. That's why I would corner you at a party and tell you all about some fucking thing.
Matt Whited (he/him): I... And then... And then I would want you to do.
Hobb-Erik: this This social awkwardness doesn't have anything to do with that?
Matt Whited (he/him): No, no.
Hobb-Erik: or
Matt Whited (he/him): And then I would want to turn around and then I'll stand in the corner and you do the same to me because I want to learn something too.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): So like that is, I don't. And I am not. always amazing socially because of that but like that is like I want that and I want to give that. And that is a core piece of who I am.
Matt Whited (he/him): is that a universal thing for all humans? I don't know. But also like all humans are raised in a culture that is all, is all humans. So it's hard to say what's like innate versus like.
Matt Whited (he/him): something we all just kind of learn so i just assume everything is individual and i really want people to avoid shoulds there's a famous psychologist named albert ellis who said if you if you hear should i should do this this should feel good to me he's like you're shooting your pants stop it um no one wants to shoot their pants uh and and tell you so
Hobb-Erik: That's fair.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but ah
Hobb-Erik: Yeah. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): And and i I like that you asked this because I think this is... This is a key piece of stress management. have a variety of things that you care about and love know what you care about and love and then direct your life in that direction and experiment to find out if that's true. like just like we talked about i thought i would like woodworking for this reason Nope. it's the discovery process for me it's not about the end product or making stuff it's the discovery process of the basics of how things fit together and how they work and i spend
Matt Whited (he/him): so much time doing that mentally. um that doing woodworking, it's actually physical. um it's a physical how does this work how does this function how does it fit together um And that's what. really brought the joy for me.
Hobb-Erik: Experimenting is is a... really Interesting. And I think good word to use there because I feel like like if we go back to the example of Paul's friend from earlier. um I know a lot of people.
Hobb-Erik: who if they try a thing and they think it should brings them joy or mitigate stress and it doesn't then it feels almost more stressful that they've wasted their time Trying it out.
Hobb-Erik: And it's like, dude, it's, it's an experiment.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: You don't fucking know until you do it.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: You know, I just try it and then see what happens.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a
Hobb-Erik: And if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. That's not helpful advice to somebody who stressed the fuck out, but I don't know how to phrase it better than that.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. Yeah.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Matt Whited (he/him): it is That was an extremely successful experiment. It told you a lot about what didn't work.
Hobb-Erik: Hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): Um, And if you are. in any way in academia like myself like you know that most of your experiments turn out that way. Like that's like. So much of my stuff, I predict things and they don't come out. um and That's just how it is. That's how life is. um It doesn't make us feel less stressed necessarily, but it is good to take that perspective of like, yeah, this didn't fucking work and that's okay.
Matt Whited (he/him): I learned, so I learned something from it. But again, like one of my values is learning shit. So to me, that feels a lot better than it might to other people who are really looking for that. solution, especially when they're suffering. and feeling really stressed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Matt, one of the things I love to think about is mindfulness gratitude. Every day.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I try to do it every day. It starts when I make my morning ah coffee, like latte, like an espresso machine. And it just happens to be in the direction of the morning sunlight.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it blazes through those kitchen windows the whole corner is lit up like it's on fire and i walk to the espresso grinder and I open it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I so put my nose right. above the beans and i take a big whiff And I just try to take a second to be like, I'm so lucky. I get to do this as part of my... is as part of my everyday ritual. And that is how I start.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The practice of gratitude every day. is that moment almost every day. And I look at the the mug in the light. And I pour. Esteemed Mill Kid.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This espresso and the crema is all roiling. and beautiful as it creeps its way up to the top of the mug. And it just feels so good.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's so, it it I mean, it's.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: in some in some ways it's so simple and dumb and in other ways This ritual has become so special to me as starting every day with gratitude. So Tell me about how you...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: perceive mindfulness and gratitude and appreciation as.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It relates to stress.
Matt Whited (he/him): Well, this is some of the stuff I'd like to swing back to one of Eric's comments of like. are there universal things and i think that mindfulness may be one of the things that might be a little bit universal to the human condition because it's been rediscovered so many times
Matt Whited (he/him): um you know we see it in hinduism we see it in buddhism i mean especially like a lot of what westerners adopted was from buddhism but you see it in christian contemplative prayer you see it in all these areas and then you see it in us and our hobbies where we're like i feel it you said it eric I feel like I shut the world out. And I'm just in the shop.
Matt Whited (he/him): Like. fuck we keep finding this thing that feels really good that we need to do occasionally in order to like empty and dump stuff. And it also creates an ability to be like, when we got a lot of thoughts in our head to be like.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm going to let these fuckers go and I'm going to go do something else. Or we've got a lot of stress. There's a lot going on. Okay. Here's what I need to do. I need to set aside the worry, set aside the concern, set aside all this stuff and then do the thing.
Matt Whited (he/him): And that moves us forward. so I think that this that that mindfulness, this ability to be... non -judgmental and present in the present moment. is something that is Hey. a very useful and universal skill. And that can look very different to different people. They may not ever call it mindfulness and that's just fine. Um, because you know, psychology is.
Matt Whited (he/him): all about mindfulness now and we just stole it from buddhism and hinduism and never cited our source which is a little culturally appropriative honestly um but and you know we molded it and changed it a little bit but not much like
Matt Whited (he/him): we're basically doing the same thing that, that the the Buddhists were doing a long ass time ago. um And so like. I think that that is something that, and now this is a bias to this because I have a weird aunt who sent me a book when I was 17 and I've been practicing mindfulness since then. um so thanks aunt peggy uh but like um but like there's a bias in this because i have an attachment to it so i do want to recognize that but to me it feels like something that has just been rediscovered by so many cultures that it is part of like as we describe times we feel most at peace and happy and satisfied are times that could be described as being mindful so there's something about this that i think is universally important to humans
Matt Whited (he/him): um And we we access that in many ways, morning coffee, hobbies. mindfulness meditation we access whatever the hell this thing is in a whole bunch of ways and i think that is important to us and we know that it is important for stress management that if we do that and we cultivate this mental skill of letting go and moving forward.
Matt Whited (he/him): in a direction that we care about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Letting go.
Matt Whited (he/him): If we... Practice that mental skill. We get good at that. It makes our life better. It helps us manage stress. It builds resilience. We can handle more stress when we do that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Can you can I just that phrase letting go? To me, that has been a big part of my stress reduction because so often I felt stressed because I want a particular outcome about something and the world is chaotic and uncontrollable and I'm stressing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because that I want that outcome. But I've learned. in large part in the last 10 years. to let go.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Don't hope for a particular outcome. And instead. I'm agnostic. I am like. Maybe there'll be an outcome, maybe there won't, and I'll handle it either way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm just happy to be alive today.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I'll take whatever outcome comes. That has reduced my stress so much because I was a control freak, you know academic, analytical thinker. Everything can be controlled if you understand the variables, right, Matt?
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah you know, and But then the whole Buddhist thing and Alan Watts and years of thinking and and like trying to control the outcome, I've just learned to let go.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And the more I let go, the less stressed I am.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah. And it's like the only way you're going to get to that positive outcome is to pay attention to what's happening now and do the thing you're doing well. Like if you want that perfect
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Being present.
Matt Whited (he/him): That perfect piece. The only way to get to that perfect piece instead of worrying about whether you're going to get there is to focus on the finish, the sanding. the joinery, whatever you're doing right now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: m The present moment.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm. And then to know that if you fuck it up you've learned something.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fantastic.
Matt Whited (he/him): And you can start over.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So good. So good. Oh Eric. You're muted, buddy. You're talking, but nothing's coming out.
Hobb-Erik: God damn it.
Matt Whited (he/him): I'm sure it was so profound too.
Hobb-Erik: Well, the joke's lost now. No, it's... yeah ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, well. On that note. This was fantastic.
Hobb-Erik: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Matt.
Hobb-Erik: Thank you Matt.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: matt you are a gem you are a good egg of a human and an insightful resource
Matt Whited (he/him): Thank you.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you so much for this episode. You know, again, i I think I was right. I walked into it to thinking, oh, we all know what stress is, right? We all know. It's easy, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: we've all But the way you broke it out and you deconstructed stress in every way.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: From like. What causes it? How does it feel? What does it do to our bodies? How do we handle it? You know, just you've deconstructed stress that was in a way that was so helpful. I will never forget a lot of your points. And this is exactly what I think is the best of our podcast when we have episodes like this. So Matt, thank you.
Matt Whited (he/him): Well, thank you for inviting me. This has been a blast. like I love being able to talk shop. I love being able to... like talk with kindred spirits that I didn't even realize how kindred we were until we like sat down and really thought like, I got the vibe, but then like sitting and talking.
Matt Whited (he/him): It's been amazing being on here.
Hobb-Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, there's...
Hobb-Erik: Thanks for coming on brother. Yeah.
Matt Whited (he/him): Anytime.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There's a vibe with us. And if you want more of this vibe.
Matt Whited (he/him): Thanks.
Hobb-Erik: There's a vibe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You can join us for the after show. We're going to chat with Matt.
Hobb-Erik: Over on Patreon.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep. Go ahead. Eric.
Hobb-Erik: Let's go to fucking...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You do it. You do it.
Hobb-Erik: Patreon .com slash woodworking is BS. I think that's probably it. Go to Patreon and just Google fucking woodworking is BS. And then you can give us money and watch us make asses of ourselves on the internet.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah, I...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or alternatively, what's actually easier is to click in the the liner notes.
Hobb-Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'll include ah a link to our Patreon. And there I will also include a screener. that you can ah It is called the Perceived Stress Scale.
Matt Whited (he/him): Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh. We're going to talk about this in the after show.
Hobb-Erik: Mm hmm.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have our numbers. I totally forgot
Hobb-Erik: Yeah, we didn't even get to it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: with that. No, we we were like so into the topic. I forgot. We did. a so A perceived stress scale. quiz or screener And we all have scores.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i I know Matt's. But Matt doesn't know mine or Eric's, and I don't know Eric's.
Matt Whited (he/him): Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like we don't We don't really know each other's perceived stress scale. We're going to put that in the liner notes. you just it it just takes you to a single page it's it's not a website you don't have to put any email in or nothing you just write on a piece of paper your scores score it
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah And it'll tell you sort of. how you perceive stress. Do you perceive your stress as low, medium, or high based on your total score? So we're going to get into that in the after show. Thanks again to Matt, and we'll see you there.
Matt Whited (he/him): All right. Take care.
Hobb-Erik: Okay, bye.
Matt Whited (he/him): Bye, everyone.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye everyone.
