Transcript
brad: All right, you walk up. to a vending machine You want your favorite snack. Maybe it's chocolate. Maybe it's a caramello. Maybe it's Reese's Pieces. but your doctor just scolded you about your diet.
brad: and you might want to make a healthy choice. What if you had to wait two minutes for that chocolate? but the healthier snack would bend immediately. Would that shift your choice?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Back at it. here we are woodworking is bullshit your favorite podcast about why we do the things we do not how we do the things we do i'm your host paul jasper of copper pig woodworking scientist by day woodworker by night and I got my boy in the chair.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric Curtis. fine furniture maker. and Spanish teacher.
Persistenc-E: Where are the Reese's Pieces, motherfuckers?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And with us tonight. On our episode, an episode that we're going to call. the next installment of the psychology series.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is Brad Appelhans. Brad was on a previous episode, as you might remember. I think that that was on personality, the big five personality.
brad: Yes. Correct.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Brad is a PhD psychologist. Another one who we have on the show. We are we have the best. crew for this show, I tell you.
Persistenc-E: We are replete with PhDs.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know the brain, the brain.
brad: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Brad's a PhD psychologist and professor at Rush University Medical Center. In Chicago, and he happens to be a domain expert. in our topic for tonight, which is...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Immediate gratification. Versus delayed gratification, which he has studied for the past 16 years, authoring over 130 publications, easily 20 plus of them were just on the topic of immediate.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Versus delayed gratification. Now, this week, I have been telling anyone who will listen to me. how excited I am about this topic. And the reason is...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know. I know. That for myself. And for all of you listening. Our reward. Let's say our reward ah centers or our.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: uh Yeah, ah let's just call it that our reward centers. whether we need the immediate gratification or... we're okay with delayed gratification plays into just about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Every part of our lives right from how we handle our money to what food we put in our mouths to how we date And of course.
brad: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: how we are in the shop. And what projects we do, what tools we buy, what techniques we're willing to try. I know. that this is an umbrella over our entire lives, yet I've never really thought about the topic. All I knew...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is I'm comfortable with delayed gratification. so to have a domain expert on who has studied this for a huge amount of his career to tell us.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: about what the psychology and the science says. is to me a rare opportunity. So Brad, thank you for being on tonight's show.
brad: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Should I just explain some of these some of these concepts right off the bat?
Persistenc-E: dive right into it dive into the the top yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's go. Yeah.
brad: Yeah. Totally. Alright.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Edumacate us.
brad: Education forthcoming. So... Yeah, we've got two concepts. We've got... um Delayed discounting really just means that we have a preference for the immediate rewards. over the delayed rewards we're kind of wired that way.
brad: So, you know all things being equal, we sort of prefer the sooner reward relative to the delayed reward. But what gets interesting is that... even when that's that sooner immediate reward is smaller.
brad: compared to the larger delayed reward, we'll pick that smaller reward. so that affects our decision making in all types of bizarre ways. So the fact that we devalue...
brad: delayed rewards, that is one concept. A different concept is the ability to delay gratification. And so that is kind of the willpower side of it. So you've got some temptation. Maybe you want to.
brad: um You want to enjoy something right now rather than wait for some long -term payoff. So the willpower that you need to. persist, that is the ability to delay gratification.
Persistenc-E: Can I? Ask a question right off the top. I feel like. but Listening to the way that you just articulated that and knowing myself and Paul, I feel like we are.
Persistenc-E: For the majority of this episode going to be on the train that delayed for gratification is the superior way to live your life for X, Y, and Z reason. And and so I...
brad: Mm hmm.
Persistenc-E: I want to know. In the studies that you've done in the... the ah research that's out there. What it says about. the guarantee that the payoff will happen.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ho!
Persistenc-E: Right. Like, all right. Like, so, so like bird in hand is better than two in the bush.
brad: Yeah. Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yup.
Persistenc-E: The the the old adage being like.
brad: Totally right. Yes.
Persistenc-E: You don't know if you're going to get that fucking other, like the pair of birds out there, but you have one in hand.
brad: Right.
Persistenc-E: Don't be stupid and gamble it away.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
brad: Yeah. That is the reason that that it's it's probably the case we evolved to have that preference because a delayed reward is an improbable. reward that you can't count on. And you know when we're of course, we're going to be talking today about things that are kind of like...
brad: a little bit optional like our woodworking time and our hobbies but a lot of the decisions and preferences we had to have to survive as a species were things like Are we going to? eat this food or hunt this way or things that were related to our survival. So the versions of humans that did not.
brad: prefer immediate gratification, they might not have made it. So we're the ones that...
Persistenc-E: Well, I...
brad: made it through
Persistenc-E: I also just want to bring that up because, again, I know like this is going to be mostly in in relation to our creative practices. And we operate from the safety of our homes and our economic stability. And there's still people in the world. as it stands, that don't have the option to wait for.
Persistenc-E: the two in the bush you know so i just i wanted to to
brad: Totally.
Persistenc-E: Talk about that right from the from the beginning.
brad: Yeah. That is, yeah that's actually so insightful because
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
brad: There's all types of research suggesting that your your exposure to poverty. is something that can really drive
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: a stronger preference for immediate gratification because you have to prioritize your immediate needs.
Persistenc-E: That is the first question I wrote down on my notes was exposure.
brad: Look at that. Oh yeah.
Persistenc-E: like what does How does that change your relationship to delayed gratification?
brad: Yeah.
brad: Exposure to poverty.
Persistenc-E: exposure Exposure to life circumstances, like early on, how do you how do you overcome those?
brad: or two.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: And then how what's your emotional state of being when we're talking about like... People like make smart money decisions, invest in long -term payouts.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: It's like, motherfucker, I got it. I'm just trying to eat. You know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
Persistenc-E: Like, what do we what are we talking about?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
brad: Absolutely.
Persistenc-E: Don't talk to me about fucking dividends when I'm trying to, like, make sure my kids have food.
brad: Yeah. Ha ha. Yeah, I mean that's absolutely right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. So...
brad: Go ahead Paul.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, so... the The very first thing, i as I was reading about immediate gratification, delayed gratification, the very first thing that popped up, they talked about, and I was hoping you could.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know tell us lead us through it is the famous uh marshmallow experiment done on with children is that right
brad: Yeah. Correct. Yeah, this was back in like 1972. So um it was a smaller study. I think they may have had like 50, 60 kids. And the setup was that there were kids ages three to five.
brad: And they brought him into a little experimental room. And they plopped one marshmallow. on a plate in front of them. And the experimenter went over the instructions. If you can hang out for 15 minutes till I get back.
brad: you'll get a second marshmallow. and these were three to five -year -old kids, so like nobody made it. like These kids did not make it.
Persistenc-E: Yeah.
brad: Some of them... They were probably like chewing on it during the instructions, you know, so.
Persistenc-E: but
brad: So really it wasn't like which kids could make it. It was how long they could make it. how long they could wait and how did they How do they do it? So some of the strategies the kids used. to delay that gratification were pretty interesting. Some of them were distracting themselves. There were some toys.
brad: There was a a case where one person just intentionally fell asleep. To not have to, like... Suffer through it. And then what was interesting is... They did a follow -up study. And so a lot of the kids that were in this study were measured, again, as teens and early adults.
brad: And there were some findings that. they had better life outcomes so the longer they could wait in that little experiment the better they did in school, their their career success, and some other...
brad: performance in some other tests like that. There has been a second round. of attempts to replicate this. So the finding does still hold up, but they are now starting to see kind of like what Eric was saying is that.
brad: socioeconomic status and expectations about your reputation actually explain a lot of that effect. So yeah, that is the famous A marshmallow experiment kind of shows that kids... people differ in that ability and it relates to life life outcomes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
Persistenc-E: Go ahead, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, I have two points. Number one, I recall reading on that second replication that they said if the child didn't trust the person to give them the second marshmallow, they'd just eat the first one.
Persistenc-E: That's the first thing I was thinking about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so right like
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: like What's the trust level here?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, so Eric, eric it's it's so funny to me that you went to...
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: socioeconomic status and trust immediately. Because those govern it, but...
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You went right to... like the second level already, which, you know, as opposed to the first level of just the finding, you already went like a level deeper.
Persistenc-E: that's That's the best. The kid who grew up poor in me, you know, just like, I don't trust these motherfuckers.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well...
Persistenc-E: They ain't bringing back a second marshmallow.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, and the second thing I wanted, yeah, for sure. The second thing I wanted to mention is if my daughter was in that study, she 100 % would not have eaten the the marshmallow.
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She 100%. It would have been there 20 minutes later. It would have been there an hour later. She is so wired. for delayed gratification is not funny.
Persistenc-E: So this is this is really a nature versus nurture argument like at its core, right? Like some kids are just.
brad: yep
Persistenc-E: pre -wired for that like i can see it coming but also with three to five year olds it's like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It... It's both.
Persistenc-E: Did this motherfucker have a nap and a snack beforehand? Like, what how hungry were they?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Do...
brad: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Do... Yeah.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, I would give her things and she would squirrel them away for another day. All the time. She wouldn't spend her money. She wouldn't eat the treats. She'd squirrel them away.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Delay, delay, delay. And she's still very, very much that way. I have to like kind of coax her to like, you know. Have the now. Right. And so, yeah, and maybe it's a little bit of nature, but it's it's definitely nurture because she trusted me that I would give her the thing later.
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I guess if she if she if if she was brought up in an unstable home, maybe she wouldn't have ah trusted me.
Persistenc-E: mm -hmm
brad: Mm -hmm
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's a really interesting experiment. Eric, I interrupted you. Go ahead.
Persistenc-E: Oh, I don't remember what I was going to say. That was like 90 seconds ago.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
brad: Ha ha.
Persistenc-E: Are you kidding me?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, sorry.
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right so So Brad, so from that marshmallow experiment, like. Well, I guess my my first question, what drew you into this field? Like, why did this, ah why did this?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: uh grab you in terms of your research and how did you get to what you opened with in the dry in the cold open which was the
brad: Mhm. Oh yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The vending machine, which you actually did, can you tell us about that study?
brad: Yeah, wild.
Persistenc-E: Yeah can you walk us through that experiment?
brad: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. um You know, you asked how i I got into this. Actually, I had kind of an interesting experience early on where I was in karate. in middle school And I was like progressing.
brad: And um I was like, you know what?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Kick an ass as one does.
brad: like i Kickin' ass, yeah. But I was like... Every time I go, I would kind of bitch about it. My dad's like, you know, if if you quit karate, you're never going to like. get all the way to black belt or whatever so when it came time to think about like what to do In college, that's kind of what...
brad: kicked me in the ass to go to grad school. um so anyway in grad school um you know was studying a bunch of different behavioral influences on health and this delay of gratification delay discounting is one of the strongest most reliable behavior predictors of health outcomes.
brad: that you can find. So studying that for a while, got interested in how it relates to things like eating behavior. food choice because in a lot of ways The choice of like what you're going to eat right now is usually based on pleasure. And then you've got all these long -term health outcomes.
brad: So it's very much a delay discounting problem or delay of gratification problem. So, did a few studies.
Persistenc-E: can can Can I ask a question right there?
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Because you keep, you're using... or at least to my lay brain, it sounds like you're using delayed gratification and delayed discounting interchangeably. Are they different things or are they like very, very close things?
Persistenc-E: They can flip flop.
brad: Yeah, they're very closely related. It's difficult to separate them in terms of how you measure it, but Delay discounting is the the decrease in a rewards value over time.
brad: The way of gratification is what you can do. to follow that long -term goal and and resist the immediate temptation. So one is about your brain's valuing a reward.
brad: And the other is about your like your willpower.
Persistenc-E: Okay. Okay. I think I got you.
brad: Yeah, but and Yeah, but when you measure it, it's like, well... they're kind of mixed together when on your measures.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, they can't be separated, but they're different things.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
brad: not not easy Not easily, yeah.
Persistenc-E: Okay. Okay. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
brad: so we So yeah, that's okay.
Persistenc-E: Carry on.
brad: We had some you know evidence that. um delay of gratification, delay discounting was related to food choice. But then the question is like, well, what are you going to do with that information that's going to actually help anyone? So we thought, well.
brad: What if we try to use a time delay? Um, and put it on the least healthy snacks to nudge people towards the more immediate. healthier snacks.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeahp
brad: So we...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
brad: We tried to get like vending machine companies to build this weird ass machine for us. And guess what? They're not super interested in building a slow vending machine.
Persistenc-E: I'm shocked.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right
Persistenc-E: I'm shocked.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah like someone goes up to...
Persistenc-E: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean, it's... genius right but someone walks up to this vending machine and then they have to wait two minutes for a chocolate this motherfucking machine they punch it and kick it right
brad: Yeah.
brad: Yeah. Yeah. We labeled it so clear, like a giant clock right on the front of this machine. It told them what to do. And I would spy. So sometimes I'd like hang out and just watch people interact with this machine.
brad: It did have a benefit. So we nudged people towards a healthier snack because the time delay. It's like a a time cost. So it did.
Persistenc-E: What? What was the time delay?
brad: nudge people but
Persistenc-E: Like between the extremes, the. the
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Reese's Pieces.
brad: You know, yeah.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, between the Reese's Pieces and the veggie sticks.
brad: we did a
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Ha ha.
Persistenc-E: What are we talking?
brad: thus We ended up settling on 25 seconds. We tested a whole range. Once you hit about 25 seconds, you kind of max out the benefit.
Persistenc-E: That's it?
brad: So it wasn't all that long. 25 seconds.
Persistenc-E: and And we're like, fuck, I got so many things to do.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: I'm not going to wait 25 seconds for Reese's Pieces.
brad: Yeah. Well, I mean, imagine you're in front of the vending machine and you know what you want. Now.
Persistenc-E: Reese's Pieces, carry on.
brad: Sit there and look at it and count to 25 and see how that feels. It feels weird.
Persistenc-E: Done. Easy. i I like if it's that or fucking carrots.
brad: ah Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Come on. so
brad: Mm hmm.
Persistenc-E: Okay.
brad: Yeah, so that's what we did.
Persistenc-E: All right.
brad: It was good.
Persistenc-E: Vicky's sneaking in the house talking about instant gratification.
brad: ah
brad: anything
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She just brought me a whiskey.
Persistenc-E: Goddamn right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and and and and
Persistenc-E: i didn't I didn't know we had a delivery service going on over here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know. And as she gave me the whiskey, she gave me a card where she wrote instant gratification.
brad: wow
Persistenc-E: laughter
brad: specific
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you, dear.
brad: Enabler.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Sorry, Brett. So 25 second delay and it did influence their choices.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
brad: It did, yeah. And, um you know, this shows up in all kinds of decisions that we encounter every day. Like obviously there's the cake now versus losing weight, staying up late and watching TV versus feeling rested in the morning.
brad: um Spending lavishly versus saving, and I'm sure there's... Plenty we can talk about how it affects our... Time in the shop. So.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. Eric, you know, the very first thing I thought of, and we'll get to woodworking soon, but like I just to understand this topic even more. The very first question I had is there is this feeling inside my belly that tells me delayed gratification more often than not is more is better for you is the right way to go. Like there seems to be a bias towards it. So the question that. popped into my head was.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, can I think of five things? where delayed gratification would be better. and can i Think of five things where immediate gratification would be better. Actually, the the preferred option.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So let me let me let me say some of these. Vicky and I were kind of spitballing these together.
brad: Alright.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: brad im i'm but Brad, I'm sure you've thought all this a thousand times in your you know many years.
Persistenc-E: Please. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so Alright. where I think delay is good. Ready? These are no brainers. Investing. Duh All right. Oral hygiene.
brad: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No one loves brushing their... Like, you're like, oh, fuck, I gotta brush my teeth, right? Like, every day, brush your teeth, brush your teeth, brush your teeth. But, like, you don't want to be down the line with no teeth and stank breath, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um, Uh... Number three, where a delay is good. School. I always made a case to my daughter, like, if your foundation is like Swiss cheese, you're going to suffer later.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You need a strong foundation. Don't use AI to, like, think for you. You know, you gotta. pay the piper at school. Number four. Gardening.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know those vegetables are going to be months from now or those flowers going to be months from now.
brad: Oh yeah.
Persistenc-E: It's a good, very practical example, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And last. um dieting. Making the hard choices now for the outcome you want later.
Persistenc-E: Sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Jim, Eric, I suppose Jim is like every day you're pumping that iron, right?
Persistenc-E: Yeah, you do you do what you got to do even when you don't feel like doing it
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because you want the long -term payoff.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What do you guys think of those five, Brad?
brad: Agreed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, I think they're strong.
brad: Yep.
Persistenc-E: Uh, oral hydrogen is a funny one because I would also. maybe argue that there is immediate gratification in that you brush your teeth and then you get into bed with your girlfriend, your wife, your boyfriend, your partner.
Persistenc-E: If you don't brush their teeth, they're like, what the fuck dog? Like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Get your...
Persistenc-E: Go clean that shit up, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Dank ass away from me.
Persistenc-E: Yeah What the fuck is me doing?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, that's the that's very good.
Persistenc-E: I ain't kissing your nasty ass. I don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Ready? ah meet Now, that's that's all kind of in the pocket stuff. That was like not. a far fetch, but we had a harder time thinking of examples where immediate gratification is the better way to go. So here's a few that we came up with and I'd be. Curious to hear your reactions.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Number one. I would say. hunger. Now. I'm like, sometimes you delay eating because you want like a great meal somewhere. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking like you can only put it off for so long and your performance degrades, you get cranky, you get hangry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I would argue more times than not, unless you have something special planned for dinner, you should probably eat when you're hungry.
Persistenc-E: Okay, can we can we do a agree, disagree, argue point by point on this?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What do you think?
brad: Great.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, go ahead
Persistenc-E: Because I think. On the whole, big picture, I agree with that. but I, I. I would. categorize it as more delayed gratification in that like I am hungry, therefore. I should go cook food.
Persistenc-E: rather than like, I am hungry and I need snack.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Persistenc-E: I need fast food.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, no, good good point.
Persistenc-E: I need something that is sugary, sweet, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Persistenc-E: And so like in an hour, I will have a real meal with real ingredients and nutrition rather than like, I just want a fucking Snickers.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, no, I get that. That's a nice elaboration. ah Second. Vacations and time off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh Everyone likes to put it off. Oh, I'll take that vacation when I'll take that time off next year. Next thing you know, you're burnt out. You're feeling tired.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're not loving your job anymore. What do you think?
Persistenc-E: That's an interesting one Um, My only pushback on vacation is that they they... require logistics most of the time so like you have to you have to plan it a little bit but let's let's Set that one aside, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Us - Let's say time off.
Persistenc-E: Let's take time off. um I was actually thinking about when you brought up the idea of instances where. instant gratification is better.
Persistenc-E: Um, that was interesting to me because i i don't think i've ever Asked myself that question. Um, And my first I had two first thoughts, and i I feel like you're probably going to hit on the second one, so we'll save it. But one of my first thoughts was.
Persistenc-E: uh sometimes you just hit a day where you're like I'm just going to like fucking take Teddy to the woods. We're going to go on a hike. We're just going to fucking vibe. I'm going to sit down and read a book. And in those moments, like the self -care of doing what you need to do to to nourish your spirit, I think is. Probably better.
Persistenc-E: in the instant gratification form rather than like, well, next Tuesday, I can i can jot it in for an afternoon off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
brad: vi
Persistenc-E: It's like, that's not that's not helpful for what you need.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right. but And something comes up by next Tuesday and takes it away.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And next thing you know, you're burnt out.
Persistenc-E: Yep.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're overworked.
Persistenc-E: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Real and happy. What do you think, Brad?
brad: ah Yeah, I think so. I mean, the theme of what you guys are saying is that... you're possibly missing out on something that is a one -time opportunity. So maybe it is. You've got an opportunity to. do some R and &R, and relax. And if you never take that opportunity, you're just going to burn yourself out.
brad: And then the other consideration is if you have an opportunity for something that like you said earlier, the probability of it actually being there when you wait is gone. then that's the other risk.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That... You know, you're you're drilling down into the overarching. ah You're talking about really the overarching principle of all my answers, which the next one was calling friends and spending time with.
Persistenc-E: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: with friends and family because Then they're gone. hey And you're like, fuck. Right. I wish I would. ah How many people say ah but that's one of the top five regrets of the dying. I wish I would have spent more time with friends and family.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Persistenc-E: That's a good one.
brad: Hmm.
Persistenc-E: I think that is very much like a we're we're here. This thing is happening. We have an opportunity to spend time together right now or this event is happening. We have a chance to do a thing together. Just shut the fuck up and just do it.
Persistenc-E: You know, just just enjoy it when it's happening.
brad: ah seven Yeah, those people aren't fun. Like if it's someone that never, they're always on the delayed word, it's just not that fun, you know?
Persistenc-E: Uh huh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The last two I have is cleaning and fixing your house.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You don't want to delay that too much.
Persistenc-E: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That sucks.
brad: So I view those as...
Persistenc-E: Paul.
brad: Kind of, I mean, the the... the immediate temptation is to just sit there and not clean. And then the...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: So that's that's why I was going to ask Paul, do you find enjoyment in the cleaning?
brad: Bad outcome, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh. Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Persistenc-E: Oh interesting.
brad: ha
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Persistenc-E: But the having a clean house. is ah is an enjoyable thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's so much better to do it this week than to just put it off another month because that whole month you didn't clean or you didn't fix the thing.
Persistenc-E: So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You suffer. Like we had a leak in our basement. I put it on. My dumb ass put it off for a year and a half. And my poor wife, right? It was coming from the garbage disposal, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A tiny little drip. And my poor wife was collecting the drip in a fucking rain barrel in the basement. And because it was from the kitchen sink, it smelled like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hell.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it was terrible it would fill up like gallons over like six months but that those six months of of of water were like festering like if you put your hand in there you might die of a bacterial infection but did that make my dumb ass fix it because i didn't know where the leak was coming from i had looked at it several times i couldn't figure it out and i was like i'll just do it another day and i kept kicking the can down the road my poor wife kept putting up with this every time she'd go like by the in the basement by the laundry which she does literally every day because that's her safe space she'd go down.
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She loves laundry. I know that's the most weird thing you've ever heard.
Persistenc-E: ah I fucking love Vicky.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Persistenc-E: She's so fucking weird in the best ways.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She'd go to do the laundry and she has to smell this fucking rancid ass water because I. Couldn't bring myself to fix it. I just kept kicking the can down the road, kicking the can down the road. Eventually... After a year and a half of putting up with my dumb ass.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was like, you know what this stops today. It's got to. And i I figured out where the leak was coming from. The actual copper pipe was split. I didn't know it. I couldn't see it. It was in the back end. I fixed it. And then I said. Why did I wait so long? long.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: to do that repair
Persistenc-E: But Paul, is that... Is that instant gratification or is that just avoidance?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It was. No, no. My point is. I should have done it. in the short term and i kicked it down like i just avoided it like you said and it turned into a much much bigger problem my poor wife had to deal with the smell we had to dump it out every few months it was so fucking disgusting and i'm so sick with myself that i could i put off what i could have done today and it was but it would have been in so much better but i put it off for a year and a half like what's wrong with me
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Persistenc-E: Well...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That was.
Persistenc-E: Lots of things, but we don't want to we don't want talk about so many of them in a public platform.
brad: wow
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: anyway that's home repair that's why i'm saying home repair should be an instant thing
Persistenc-E: Okay. All right.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: I am. A little surprised that you didn't hit the other one that came directly to mind. Uh, because there is nothing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hit it.
Persistenc-E: Nothing less appetizing. than planning sex. like Like, it's not, you know? Nobody's ever been like, I'm so hot.
Persistenc-E: We're going to have sex on Tuesday. Oh, that sounds so good. I can't wait.
brad: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well. Eric.
Persistenc-E: Being in the moment and being ah ah being a person who takes ah the moment into consideration in that instance, I think immediate gratification is a a perfectly legitimate thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's a lovely thing.
Persistenc-E: assume of but By the way, we're assuming consent.
brad: Yeah, that...
Persistenc-E: you know?
brad: Yeah. Yeah. That would be a great example of the...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's a lovely thing.
brad: evolutionary drive for the immediate gratification.
Persistenc-E: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. However, when children are involved...
Persistenc-E: Oh, shut up. know where you go
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When children are involved and jobs are involved and everyone's busy, it... You don't seem to just spontaneously find that time all the time.
Persistenc-E: sure i'm not saying fucking drop trow in the kitchen like but you know we can we can you can at least roll over and be like what's up girl you know like yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: out Well.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is that right I'm going to try that. I'm going to try that. Hey girl, what's up?
Persistenc-E: I don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric told me to use that.
Persistenc-E: Hey, how you doing?
brad: sure
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, this is going in a bad direction. Next, moving on.
brad: Hey remember how I fixed that leak in the kitchen?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: let's bring
Persistenc-E: Yeah.
brad: That only took a year.
Persistenc-E: Well... So hot when a man works with his hands.
brad: isn't since
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Speaking of working with your hands, let's bring this to woodworking. So Brad, you had some nice... um Wait, first of all, Brad, before we take this to where we're at, did we miss any...
brad: Haha. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: important points about immediate delayed gratification. discounting, any anything else we should mention?
brad: I don't think so. I think we got the fundamentals.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. So you brought up some really interesting ways in which. Um, Delayed discounting, delayed gratification, immediate gratification plays into woodworking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So why don't you go through? Why don't you lead us through some of them? And Eric and I and you, we can all react.
brad: Oh yeah.
brad: Absolutely. Yeah. So once you kind of are familiar with. delay of gratification as a concept you see these decisions everywhere so some of the ones that have come up for me as I find myself. prone to gravitating towards quick easy projects that provide a quick payoff.
brad: And I will do that at the expense. of working on a bigger, more satisfying project, that's just going to take me a long time because you know I don't have a lot of... Shop time, I'm like mostly a few hours on the weekend.
brad: So building an end table or something, that's like a couple of months. Whereas I could... Whittle a little spoon in like a day so that Project project choice is one key way for me.
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Brett, can I though say, you are a delayed gratification wired kind of guy.
brad: Oh yeah. Yes, I am.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right?
brad: i I mean, yes, grad school will do that. And my dad's lesson about karate obviously got to me. So, um yeah, I think I would say a lot of woodworkers are just the ability to focus on long -term endeavors that have like a...
brad: a payoff that unfolds over weeks you know your skills progress over weeks to years So I think a lot of woodworkers probably are in that. in that mold.
Persistenc-E: So. Why do you think it is that when it comes to your creative practice in the shop, you are more... Um, ah you lean more towards the instant gratification.
Persistenc-E: Is it an exhaustion of delayed gratification?
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: If you tap that out and you just get to a point where you're like, I just need something fun and simple.
brad: It could be that because, um you know, I think I mentioned last time, my day job as a researcher, everything. has like a five year time frame to it so there are periods in my life where i'm like i just need a
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Holy.
brad: do something and then walk away and see something has changed in the physical world at the end of the day. so like When I'm in those kind of moods... It's going to be a spoon.
Persistenc-E: I think that's a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
brad: yeah
Persistenc-E: Perfectly legitimate approach, brother. like It's a good balance to to what it sounds like you're dealing with professionally.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: um I... notice for me. the house projects. I'll just fucking kick that can down the road all day long I don't give a fuck
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Kitchen countertops.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, them kitchen countertops have been sitting in the shop for two plus years. So here's the thing. like So Brad, I think... to your point. Um, So much of the... Yeah. The commission work that I do usually takes at a minimum weeks, usually many months. And so when it comes to doing a thing um for pleasure
Persistenc-E: I'm not like, yeah, let me, let me think, let me plan out what the kitchen's going to look like, spend a week doing that. And then I'm going to spend three weeks building the cabinets and I'm going to replace the counter.
Persistenc-E: And then I got a drywall and retile and et cetera, et cetera.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: I'm like, I don't give a fuck, man. So when it comes to the play projects, they typically are things that I can do. within a few days or a week. And then that's that's the reset of like, okay.
Persistenc-E: I've got 20 to 40 hours in this thing. It was quick. It was dirty. you know I've made a million boxes, but boxes are easy to make. I can i can have a chat with Larissa while I'm doing it. i can Think about the next commission while I'm doing it. It's just a reset thing.
brad: Yeah, so you've got like... Delay of gratification. eric when you're in the work space like commissions and then you've got your
Persistenc-E: Sure.
brad: More present biased. version when it's just playtime.
Persistenc-E: ah Yeah. And I mean, like, and not even just the commissions, like. Everything. And I'm sure you guys both deal with this in the science world, but but running a business, everything is. planned six to 12 months out. Like rarely, if ever, do I have ah a commission, ah a sponsor, an episode, whatever it is, where I'm like, yeah, I can put that out in a week.
Persistenc-E: you know like it's always like ah i'm free in january now
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: my teaching schedule is already filled up for the next year through November. you know and so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
Persistenc-E: Then it becomes a thing of like, okay, when I have free time. Is it going to be a year long project? No, because I'm fucking tired.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I am. Well, before I talk about me. I want to ask the listener to think about your recent project choices. Do you? Did you?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Consider yourself someone who seeks out immediate gratification. or delayed gratification. And we know. uh that it Definitely. correlates with the reward centers in your brain and how they function.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Have. has that choice. or has that preference for immediate gratification and delayed. Has that impacted what you do in the shop? Do you wish it was different?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Later. Brad is going to tell us some approaches if you want to shift it. how you can shift it i think that's super i i don't know what he's going to say yet but i know that he's going to give us some strategies Myself. i'm almost too far on the delay like it's getting insane My projects now are taking me over a year each.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like.
brad: Oh my god.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh! God, what are you doing, Paul? But you know what? this sort of Let me tell you this survival strategy. Uh. The gothic cabinet I'm building right now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: has 200 hours already in it, maybe more, 250.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of steps in operation. The survival strategy, and Eric knows what I'm already going to say, is to take those as single projects. Each operation, each day, each thing you do in the shop becomes its own mini boss in the video game of life or in the video game of woodworking, right? Mini boss, mini boss, every day, mini boss. And so you feel a sense of completion. I'm i'm going in here to do this.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And did you accomplish that today? Yes. How did it go? It could have gone better. Maybe I should repeat it tomorrow. You're not even thinking that's only step 15 of 600 steps because if you if you view the project in its entirety, you get completely overwhelmed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I don't do that. I just think about the next three to five steps I have on the radar and I break them into mini bosses and I take those mini bosses down and I try to enjoy every day.
brad: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: as much as I can. And that is its own form of immediate gratification within the context of a much longer, much longer, huge duration project.
Persistenc-E: I'm curious. uh if there's any research or or thought about. um ah Paul, what you're describing to me, what is that what where my mind went was.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Persistenc-E: you're You're in the thick of it right now. You're figuring out strategies to stay motivated to go in there and like beat the mini boss and punch the thing in the face.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: but but Years or decades down the road, those are the projects. like yeah Hopefully you end up with a thing that's beautiful. And those are the projects that you tell stories about. Like those are the projects that become lore or the things that you become known for, the things that you are most excited to show people.
Persistenc-E: The the small little tic -tac -y bullshit that we do, like nobody gives a fuck.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know.
Persistenc-E: It's not hard, right? there's no There's no growth in those things.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Persistenc-E: So I'm wondering. I don't know, maybe this is too far a tangent. We don't have to discuss it, but I'm wondering if there is ah a connection or any research between. how we feel about delayed gratification in the moment versus how we feel about it once we've been removed for a period of time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: think
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, I know a guy who can help us with this.
Persistenc-E: ah Well...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so
Persistenc-E: Listen, Paul, I don't know how to tell you this, buddy. I was asking Brad.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know, I know, I know.
brad: ah
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was just going to say it's time for you and me to get on the couch, all right, buddy?
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: yeah Yeah, let's go sit over here.
brad: Yeah. Oh, I love this. this is This is good. You are describing the hot -cold empathy gap. So. In the moment when yeah when you're making you're making a decision based on temptation.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What?
brad: the prospect of immediate gratification. it's really difficult for you to empathize with your future self or imagine how you're going to feel very far in the future. But like you said, when Time has passed. You've made your choices and you're looking back.
brad: You're in a whole different head space. You're more cerebral. You're in a cold state instead of a hot, tempted state. and you feel very different about it in fact that's kind of the main issue with this delay of gratification problem.
brad: If you constantly pick the immediate gratification, you're going to be shortchanging your future self. when you look at your collected works at the end of your woodworking career, you're going to be like, oh, look at these stupid ass little boxes or whatever.
Persistenc-E: I made so many fucking cutting boards.
brad: You know? And you wish.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wait.
Persistenc-E: Christ.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wait, Brad, the hot -cold, I didn't quite, like... Say it again. What's hot and what's cold?
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Say it again.
brad: the hot cold empathy gap that's kind of the subjective experience that people have when they make a tempted decision in the moment in a hot state there. They're all revved up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
brad: They're tempted.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
brad: In those kind of states, it's really hard to envision how you would feel. in a different mindset when you're no longer tempted when time has passed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. I see, I see
brad: So it's like you can't identify with how you're. future self is going to view this whole this whole dilemma.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
Persistenc-E: Is...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, now that I understand that, I would have to say I'm cold most of the time because I don't really make a lot of hot decisions.
Persistenc-E: so
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, go ahead.
Persistenc-E: Well, I was wondering, and this may be very wrong, so please tell me if I'm not even close. I'm imagining like. the the The. hobbyist like bodybuilder right or or um like a a young. woman who's who's beautiful and you can never see it in the moment like you feel like ah like my body is not quite there my my left bicep is strong or smaller than my right bicep and you're you're
Persistenc-E: hyper fixating on these these imperfections and then years later you look back and you're like I was, I was fucking, I was looking great, you know, or like, you sitting you know, I was beautiful.
brad: sha
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um. Okay.
Persistenc-E: Like I didn't, I couldn't appreciate what I.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: was doing what I had at the time because I was too hot, too close to it. Am I, is that a thing? Is that related or am I way off base?
brad: Slightly off base, maybe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah best answer ever
brad: Uh...
Persistenc-E: That's all right.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Hey, I can take correction.
brad: Yeah. yeah
Persistenc-E: I can take correction.
brad: Yeah, yeah.
Persistenc-E: Okay. I wouldn't even close.
brad: Yeah, usually, I mean, they they they usually apply that to, you know, your your making, your decision making is so influenced by emotions and temptation and reward.
Persistenc-E: That's fine.
Persistenc-E: m
brad: And. um then... when you would be in a cerebral state. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Brad, is there is there a correlation with like delayed gratification, thinking about the future, making cold, like cold empathy, right? Like you're not you're not all hot, you're in a cold state.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is there a correlation with that and like prefrontal cortex function?
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like people who are more analytical tend to go that way, whereas people who might run hotter, more neuroticism, more amygdala activation, run more like immediate gratification, hotter decision -making?
brad: Yeah, absolutely. there's um and It's an interaction between your prefrontal cortex, like your executive system, the CEO of your brain. And then this reward circuit, kind of this very primal.
brad: reward seeking brain circuit. That interaction between those two systems really affects your. delay discounting and delay of gratification. So it's that interaction and people vary a lot.
brad: in how those two systems interact and it really does explain their decision -making patterns.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, where do you think you fall?
brad: Totally.
Persistenc-E: On. Exactly which scale?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are you... are you an Are you an immediate kind of guy? Are you a delayed kind of guy? Are you somewhere in between? Where are you?
Persistenc-E: I... I. Think. That when I was younger. I was an immediate gratification person through and through, which I think is Probably pretty common.
brad: Yeah, age -related for sure.
Persistenc-E: Um, um I, and I.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ADHD related also.
Persistenc-E: And I think, fair, fair. And I think that I have. learned that the only way to achieve the goals that I want is to put in the work. And so i i think i have swung so far the other way though that i do at times have to remind myself like It's okay to just...
Persistenc-E: Fucking. you know play hooky Go do a thing you enjoy. You don't always have to be planning ahead. You don't always have to be three steps ahead of the curve. Now, part of that is, is of course, running a business. like I professionally, I have to be. So it's hard to turn that off sometimes.
Persistenc-E: um so i But I think as I get older, my natural instinct is to... Plan. and execute on a longer time scale.
Persistenc-E: I think.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You old man.
Persistenc-E: I'm old as fuck, baby.
brad: position
Persistenc-E: i My knee popped earlier today. I was like, oh shit.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Brad. How about you? How do you self...
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Assess yourself.
brad: Yeah. and Well, I definitely think I'm a ah a shallow discounter, so definitely prone to delaying immediate gratification. I think over over time I've had to actually try harder.
brad: to... Seize the moment. a little more You know, Paul, you mentioned that some of the projects you work on now 200 250 hours Imagine if like that's. I'll that was all of your projects like you would probably burn out and just get sick of it right Yeah, so I guess...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do, which is why I intersperse other smaller projects to keep my sanity. And the idea, by the way, time's running out. You're you're alive about 4 ,000 weeks. If every project is one year and I'm already 50 something. Uh,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's say i'm I'm good in the shop till I'm 80. Let's just say that's 30 years. That's 30 projects is all I have left in me. 30 like good projects, assuming I do one a year. That's not okay with me. So I have to intersperse more reasonable projects, 20 hours, 15 hours, 30 hours, you know, like.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I could have that big one always in the background and I intersperse the others to keep my sanity. And because, Brad, you know i I asked you whether you're ah a – immediate versus delayed guy and i already knew the answer because you wouldn't be the scientist you are if you weren't a delayed kind of guy that it that career selects for people who can delay for decades.
brad: Yeah, it's sickening.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean, i you know, we go to college for like. 12 to 15 years before we get our first real job and real paycheck. Talk about delayed gratification. Holy shit.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's self -select for us. So you and I are almost too far on the spectrum. And I've had to learn in the last 10 years to like go on that vacation, spend that money because times are running out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I've had to kind of re -educate myself to be a bit more on the other side to find balance.
brad: Yeah.
brad: You know, there's also an interesting part about just like your development of skills so eric i don't know your your history and everything but Um, There was probably a period where it took you.
brad: Some time to get the skills. So there was this whole period of time when you were kind of building skills and building up your work that was ah kind of in a sense, delaying the gratification that you would ultimately get. from from this
Persistenc-E: Yeah, 100%. I mean, I spent you know. I don't know years decades growing up with the trades learning how to build things learning the basics of construction learning the physics of the world and then refining those skills into furniture more and more. um and in starting to make an art of it and i was i was bad at it for a long time Um,
Persistenc-E: But the. the process of learning was its and and we touched on this earlier the process of learning was gratification in the beginning, like in and of itself.
brad: Mm hmm.
Persistenc-E: So like. Just cutting. And I was never deterred. I mean, listen, i you know, I grew up playing sports like you. All you can do is swing the fucking stick and try to put the ball in play. That's all you can do. You know, if the defender makes a good play.
Persistenc-E: it's a good play on them you can't beat yourself up about that if you attempt to cut a dovetail and it holds but it's not pretty Yeah. You put the ball in play, man. Maybe it's a standup single. All you can do is get back up to bat next time, cut some more dovetails and keep refining the skill.
Persistenc-E: But. That. does eventually the problem with that is that it has an end point which is like okay your your first thing is just
brad: Mm hmm.
Persistenc-E: learn how the process goes. The second thing is once you've learned that and you can do it, can you get better at it? And then the third thing is taking that knowledge and applying it to a larger. ah composition. creating an object through those skills. But then after that, you go like.
Persistenc-E: Well, where the fuck do I go from here? Like once you've accomplished. That. in and can integrate that knowledge into a larger skill set. uh Then. I think for for myself.
Persistenc-E: And I don't know if you guys agree with this. Then you're left wondering what the next question is. What's what's the next goalpost that you can set for yourself? Can you push the hurdle back further and keep chasing? Or do you have to learn at some point? to just appreciate the now take the instant gratification of like ah it's not the best piece i've ever made but it's a pretty good fucking piece and move on with your life
brad: Yeah, I mean, you described a lot of stuff that you have to get through in the development process. And I've always wondered if there are... people who are steep discounters, they can't delay that gratification, that they just can't persist in the early phases of woodworking.
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: Just because they're just not getting that. gratification soon enough.
Persistenc-E: You know what's interesting to me? I don't... I wonder if this is like a calcification of the brain, but I've i've seen this a lot in older students, um usually middle -aged to older students, but typically we'll say like.
Persistenc-E: 60 plus, if they're just getting into woodworking at that point. um we're talking about doctors, surgeons, lawyers, like people with the money to... um take on woodworking as a hobby and take weeks off at a time and go to class and purchase a workshop, outfit a workshop. And then they go to class and it's hard.
Persistenc-E: And I've seen a lot of them give up, even though they spent decades of their life delaying gratification. And some of them, let's take a surgeon, for example, have the necessary tactile skills to like cut a dovetail, but there's.
brad: Yeah.
brad: Let's hope.
Persistenc-E: There's something about, yeah, well.
brad: that
Persistenc-E: There's something about...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Persistenc-E: Uh, Maybe. Maybe Paul, it comes back to your point. Like this is hard and I only have so many days left on the planet. Why would I waste my time trying to get good at this?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't like. being bad at things because my self -esteem It suffers.
brad: who
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: suffers Isn't that what that is? I don't want to be bad at a thing in my precious little time. Now that's that's one type of... of of student. There's other students who don't mind.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: they're it's part of the process right like you just get such a such a wide array array of types
Persistenc-E: Oh yeah.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, i'm I'm talking about a specific stereotype right now, but I see it often.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Like there's at least one in every class where they're like, I was a surgeon. I was an architect. I was whatever. This should be easy. And you can see them get frustrated.
Persistenc-E: and then A couple of years goes by and they're like, yeah I never did anything with it. I spent $50 ,000 on a workshop and you know I made a couple of cutting boards.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or that's what...
brad: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's why. See, that's why you keep you keep reasonable expectations and you stay in a student mindset, right?
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just stay in the student mindset. All the time.
Persistenc-E: You know who ah never once had a student mindset? Our Lord Savior. Billy M .T. Burkle. And ah did you guys know that i this this upcoming weekend, so before this episode comes out, I will be over there. teaching a class on how to become uh priest in the church of wtb woodworking
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i didn't know that was the topic
Persistenc-E: He didn't. You didn't know that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i was Well, I mean, Yorkie.
Persistenc-E: There's going to be animal sacrifices. There's going to be all kinds of things, but it's going to...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're qualified with your background.
Persistenc-E: Sure. Well, that's what I'm saying. like i am like I might not be the deity, but I fancy myself the high priest of the Church of WTB. You know? ah But let me tell you a little bit about what's going on over there. Saturday, October 24th.
Persistenc-E: from 9am to 3pm is the makers meetup is the two year showroom anniversary. I will be there. We wanted to film an episode of this podcast while we were there. But Paul's a little bitch and didn't want to come down. So that's not happening. And right now You can save up to $890 on Shaper Origin packages until October 31st.
Persistenc-E: with a three -year warranty backed up by Festool. So don't feel like just because congloates conglomerates are doing conglomerate things that ah that tool won't be. ah guaranteed in the same way it always has been.
Persistenc-E: You can win them a fell. We've talked about this. I don't know what the fuck's going on here. It's a goddamn track. So I think like just fucking enter, enter the giveaway.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it's got a lot of It's got a lot of letters and numbers.
Persistenc-E: It's got a lot of numbers, a lot of letters.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: I'm looking at a picture of a saw blade right now. I think it's in a track saw. I don't know. That goes until sometime. But you should go on her because there's going to be another giveaway. And.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did enter and I haven't heard jack shit that I won yet.
Persistenc-E: This son of a bitch, man. I tell you what. And then there's a, there's a g gripper sale. going on right now. uh there's a dick joke i'm not gonna make in there because i am a professional brad uh what do you know about the church of wtb my man
brad: Oh, my God. ah I heard he can delay gratification pretty well.
Persistenc-E: With the best of them.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: With the absolute best of them, for sure.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Paul, how do you feel about our Lord and Savior? Billy and Teresa Burkle. You son of a bitch. Get it together.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. um First of all, I bristle at the fact that you said I'm a son of a bitch for not going down there.
brad: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'll have you know, I'm seeing one of the finest musicians in the world that day.
Persistenc-E: That's fine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's why I couldn't come down.
Persistenc-E: That musician is not paying us to do an ad read right now, so I don't give a fuck. Tell me about Billy and T -Burgle.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Otherwise, I would go down to William Teresa Burkle and give him a soft caress because I've never met William Teresa Burkle.
brad: thing
Persistenc-E: ah
Persistenc-E: Hey. That's... bananas to me where is you should know where it's located by now
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Persistenc-E: A year and a half.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Huntington Valley.
Persistenc-E: huntingson valley Huntington Valley 390 Pike Road, Unit 2.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Go check it out.
Persistenc-E: All right. That's all I got to say.
brad: yeah
Persistenc-E: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Oh, Eric.
brad: Oh, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did not support you.
Persistenc-E: I...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I.
Persistenc-E: Listen, i'm to to be honest.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm the worst partner in this.
Persistenc-E: To be honest, I was a little mad that I missed my opportunity to call Will. ah Bill Burkle, the CEO of MyBrain, but the conversation had moved past it. That was my plan.
Persistenc-E: That was the plan.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: transition. Go ahead.
brad: Nice nice
Persistenc-E: What's up next?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah. All right. So I want to come back to what Brad was saying about links to woodworking. so the first The first link of this whole topic to woodworking is what projects do you choose? And are you choosing projects that are done quickly so you feel that rush? uh or do you take the delayed gratification.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we talked about that and how you can even take a long term project and break it into short term, like little kind of mini bosses. I feel like that's kind of a fix for you for getting through that. Brad, what's another link to woodworking that you had on your list?
brad: Yeah, I mean, I think taking shortcuts is one way. So you maybe you're working on a project, you've got a couple options. Maybe it's joinery. Maybe it's your finishing process.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and
brad: And. you know, one Some finishing processes might take a few days. Or you can do hard wax oil. and you're done. So I... personally find myself prone to doing that.
brad: taking Taking some shortcuts, not to really compromise the project, but I do know I would have a... Um, better overall level of satisfaction with a project at the end if I had done maybe the longer, more laborious process. So I don't know if you find yourself.
brad: in that dynamic.
Persistenc-E: Finishing is an interesting example because I don't even think finishers like finishing. Bye. Hey. Excuse me ma 'am.
brad: She doesn't like finishing.
Persistenc-E: She does not. She's... she's
brad: No, he hates it.
Persistenc-E: Proving my point. um
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: It... Let's take the... professional ah deadline situation out of it, right? Because sometimes you just got to get the thing. Sometimes I've got 48 hours to finish and deliver a piece and not two weeks.
Persistenc-E: you know um
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: But let's assume a blank slate where where time is not an issue. Um, Sometimes I think it's also okay that the... The f - to...
Persistenc-E: How am I trying to phrase this? To finish. with the shorter application time. is the right finish for a particular job. You know, and I think that's OK, but I think we can get into the headspace of like.
Persistenc-E: especially in woodworking where. If it takes longer, it must be better. And I don't think that's always necessarily true. You know, we do the thing where like. ah Paul, you use CNC a lot, right?
Persistenc-E: In order to rough things out so that you can go carve it. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: There's a lot of folks who are like, well, you're cheating because it takes less time to do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Persistenc-E: And it's like, dude, I'm still doing all of the finesse work by hand. I'm just doing all the drudgery on a machine to lessen the time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, you wouldn't... You wouldn't do the project if the drudgery was 100%. You wouldn't even do it. it would It wouldn't even be on your bench. So the CNC is giving the opportunity to do projects that were otherwise intractable.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: by hand. That is not a loss. That is a gain. I'm sorry.
Persistenc-E: That's the vocab word of the episode, intractable.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um...
brad: Yeah, and you're bringing up...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think about...
brad: a a point that I was going to.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go ahead
brad: to ask about, which is. you know, um as your skills get better, as you get new tools, all of those things help you be a little more um expedient in your process they they accelerate these projects do you think that can help Um...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
brad: eliminate some of the effect of the of the delay of gratification issue.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Yes, I am doing a project right now that speaks exactly to what you just said. I want to do, an and Eric, I showed you the pictures from it today.
Persistenc-E: Fuck yeah, you did.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I want to. I want to replicate a mosaic. like a tile mosaic like you know how they've been unearthing these byzantine mosaics and roman roman empire roman yeah mosaics underneath pompeii and they see these beautiful mosaic images I thought to myself, wouldn't that be cool if I could do that with wood?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I've been thinking how to pull that off because. I don't have 20 ,000 wooden. ah Chips.
brad: All right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: of different colors to like glue on one at a time.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I thought. How can I facilitate this? Because wood, like, it's not like I could sit there with a hammer and like hammer these like little pieces of stone into the shapes I want.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wood doesn't work like that. You got to cut it, right? so I've been using technology to enable. This process that I otherwise would not ever do. It's just intractable. That's why when you Google wooden mosaics, they're either huge blocks of wood, huge.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: squares cut and like cobbled together into a huge but nothing small right nothing the size of an actual roman mosaic because it's intractable from a, from an effort point of view, what are you going to saw 50, like 5 ,000 pieces of wood by hand on a scroll saw and then fit them laboriously one at a time. How are you going to glue them down? You can't just stick them in. Like you got to clamp that shit, right? Wood needs a little clamping.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: come on no one's gonna do that so like i found using technology like my laser and my CNC has allowed me to get a result so close to that in One one thousandth of the time. So absolutely. Your point is well taken about tools providing shortcuts.
Persistenc-E: So we're not going to talk about flooding it with epoxy. and you know, like.
brad: a
Persistenc-E: and just making a river table. It makes. ah tables more accessible to everybody? or
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Brad, what's next?
brad: Yeah, as I say, What if I...
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
brad: What if you walk up to a vending machine and there's 5 ,000 mosaic tiles? But you got to wait. 20 seconds. Well, I think you guys have both mentioned a couple of strategies that may actually help.
brad: overcome. the inability to delay gratification. So Eric mentioned Commissions. So that is really a... what we call a commitment strategy.
brad: so That is a decision you've made, kind of imposes. um It kind of takes your choice away. You know, you've you've committed to something, so you don't have to really worry about giving into.
brad: an immediate reward versus a delayed reward. you've got a commitment out there. So commissions is one. promising a project. is another so if you've kind of made the decision that say for the holidays you're going to batch out a bunch of cutting boards or something.
brad: That's one way to overcome the challenge of delaying gratification. Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Commissions are... emotionally loaded for a lot of people. um including myself. where. ah The. The delayed gratification part.
Persistenc-E: Um, can be also tied in with like expectation and worry about how the client is going to to
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: receive it. You know, so.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: I mean, I don't know. I just, I want to point that out because I feel like. There's. probably at least one person listening. who hears that as a strategy. to ah build up that delayed gratification muscle. And it is.
Persistenc-E: But. Also, there's a lot of emotional baggage. There's other emotional baggage that could come with that. So I don't want folks to be like. Like I'm not even good at commissions. I'm never going to be good at delay gratification.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Good point. Um,
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Brad, you had you had a note in our docket. I don't know if the listeners know this, but we we share notes prior to the show, at least.
brad: Except with Eric.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Uh,
brad: We don't we didn't share it.
Persistenc-E: yeah yeah yeah yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Except with Eric.
Persistenc-E: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: because I know he won't fucking read them.
Persistenc-E: Just let me fly blind. I don't know what you're talking about I read it once.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um It was. So Brad, you had a note for new woodworkers or less experienced woodworkers about, you you called it failure to launch.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And you talked a bit about things taking longer on the early side. or the intermediate steps not being fun because you're not good at them.
brad: and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Can you elaborate on failure to launch? And then that brings us into your strategies for how to solve that problem.
brad: Yeah. I mean, imagine you're a new woodworker and you've got a... Maybe you want to do some kind of and somewhat ambitious project, something that's challenging, but you're looking at it. You've got like three tools. you know how to do a couple of types of joinery and you're thinking this is going to take months.
brad: That's very daunting. And so that is a very delayed. reward that that you're going to have to face. And you don't have all of the... mini bosses along the way.
brad: you know you don't get the same kind of satisfaction so for A new woodworker, maybe it's like some of the surgeons and and stuff, maybe they're okay delaying gratification at work.
brad: but when they're buying a shop and they're taking a course, they don't want to have to do that. So I do wonder. about there being some... barrier to entry that relates to delay of gratification for early woodworkers.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
brad: I don't know if you felt that way when you were getting started. I had like a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I hadn't really thought about it.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Yeah, I was bullheaded. I was just like, there's no I'm not going to fail. like I'm just going to do the thing. Maybe that's ego. Maybe that's ah stubbornness. I don't know what it is. but um I was.
Persistenc-E: I was thinking about... like i i didn't i wasn't thinking about the words failure to launch earlier but as i was trying to think through this subject a little bit, that concept came up to me. And I was wondering. if does Does the failure to launch...
Persistenc-E: change depending on who is seeing you do the work. Like, is it is it a ah strictly personal thing? Or. um if it is just an enjoyable hobby and nobody's paying attention and you're in your shop and there's no pressure to make a thing that a few months is not super daunting but the moment whatever it is you know you put yourself on the internet right you're in front of an audience or or
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep. 100%.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: maybe your family is highly critical of what you're doing. And like, they're they're like, what the fuck are you wasting?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: 100%.
Persistenc-E: months in the show you haven't done shit dog you know so so is that pressure Um, Does that? alter the failure to launch mechanism.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: 100%. Right, Brad?
brad: I would think I mean, yeah, it certainly plays into whether it's going to be a rewarding experience or not. have you had this Have you had this experience?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric. i
Persistenc-E: Are you sure? Yeah. I mean like.
brad: ah
Persistenc-E: So, so Yes. the early stages, I think. of my career, it was a lot of. constantly proving not only that I could do it. But then it quickly morphed into once I decided that this was going to be a career. It was constantly proving that this was a viable career option. Hey, ah asterisk to that. It's not.
Persistenc-E: but that's neither here nor there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mwahahahaha!
brad: specific event
Persistenc-E: um But yeah, I think that immediately. put the pressure on where like if as a as a younger woodworker if i were to have spent six months making an object a year making an object and then it came out pretty meek mediocre because fucking of course it would i didn't know what the fuck i was doing then Everybody who sees it is like you.
Persistenc-E: You can't do this for a fucking living. Are you kidding me? Paul?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, Eric. Eric, you had that. Wait, is so part of... What's difficult about your example for yourself is like, I want to do this for a living. So there's this pressure to earn a living right from the get -go.
Persistenc-E: Sure, sure, sure. sure but it But that's also, that's part of the external pressure, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, that's tough. That's really tough.
Persistenc-E: It's like, not only do I have to figure out how to do this, I have to figure out how to make this economically viable.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's tough. I didn't have that pressure. right I was already making a living, so I could just make things in the shop and no one's like, oh, you're not going to be able to make a living off that because I wasn't trying to. That's a huge amount of pressure on you, by the way, that I didn't have.
Persistenc-E: Sure. Yeah. and And I can appreciate that. But that's part of the the external pressure I was talking about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: But you so you you learned a thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. you're No, I see it.
Persistenc-E: You did a thing. You fell in love with the thing. And then. I... Who was being critical? Did anybody care that you took months to make a thing, but you you made cutting boards and then took it to a show for a first time and then none of them sold?
Persistenc-E: Did you feel like that was a statement on your time in the shop?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think... feel like I did a good job. of. Taking bite -sized chunks. like I would try to learn a thing, but a small thing. One little thing at a time. And I would eat the elephant one cubic inch at a time. I wasn't trying to like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know, conquer the world in one step. So because I broke these complex things into so many little bite -sized chunks. I... I didn't feel overwhelmed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I wasn't. It just seemed more immediate. It's like my goal today is to. cut a better dovetail with a handsaw or like just just do better hand sawing i don't want this shitty fucking you know like and and you know what i mean if you just simplify The daily.
brad: Mm -hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: grind into very small bite -sized chunks. And that's that's with you and yourself. I'm not thinking about the finished product.
Persistenc-E: well, so so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The finished product is too overwhelming for me.
Persistenc-E: But that's what I want to know, Paul, because nobody in the early stages of your development as a woodworker, nobody but you, nobody around you, but you can appreciate the tiny steps that you took.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Persistenc-E: So you might have spent six hours in the shop.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: straightening out your saw curves and they're like, what the fuck did you like? We had dinner plans and you were late because you just cut. a straight line and a fucking board 700 times?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: like was there any Was there anybody or any external source applying pressure to you in that way?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know... uh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, I think I had curated my friend group enough that if I shared it with them, they were kind to me.
Persistenc-E: Mmm. Is that, okay, so is that better then?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I wasn't just.
brad: Ha ha.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I wasn't going on the internet.
Persistenc-E: Is that better than... um to to have the friend group, to have the spouse, the mother, the partner, the husband, whatever it is, that you show a thing to early on in your career and everything you do is like, it's so good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Dude. Dude!
Persistenc-E: It's perfect.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric.
Persistenc-E: I love it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I could show Vicky the most horrendous dog shit and she'd be like.
Persistenc-E: It's amazing. you saw our You saw our bear turd and she loved it?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Shit.
brad: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She'd be like. Honey, that's really great.
Persistenc-E: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You've got to find a partner like that.
Persistenc-E: That's it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Persistenc-E: Is that helpful?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
brad: That's funny.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's no, no, it's not helpful.
Persistenc-E: Maybe early on?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, it's not helpful for motivation, but I don't seek external motivation.
Persistenc-E: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have internal motivation. I don't need her to be like, oh, that's not good enough. Do better. You know, that's coming from me.
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so like I just need that little pat on the head that's like, oh honey, you you did good. And I'm like, for that day, for that Tuesday, whenever that was, I feel good about myself and I can go back on Wednesday and be like, this sucks.
Persistenc-E: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's go.
Persistenc-E: yeahp Yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right so she knows i'm a self -motivated kind of guy so she doesn't have to play that role with me but eric
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: One thought I had is I only became comfortable sharing the things I make on the internet with the general population once I was at a certain level, because I think I knew in the back of my head I'd be eviscerated.
Persistenc-E: Mm -hmm.
Persistenc-E: I think a lot of people have that nagging voice in the back of their head.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, I think they do.
Persistenc-E: and i and And I think it's a good, like... That's Jiminy Cricket. you know pointing you towards the north star right like that's not a bad thing Um, But we also live in an age where.
Persistenc-E: i i feel like a we seek community which is is a good thing um but we also feel that external pressure to justify our time. And if you can.
Persistenc-E: get integrated into a community. If you can sell a piece, even if it's a spoon or a cutting board, whatever, it is something small. you get Somebody pays you money for the hours that you've developed skill sets in the shop. Um,
Persistenc-E: That is a... very rewarding thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It is.
Persistenc-E: And, and so the temptation becomes like, well, if I put it online, there's a lot more people online than there is in fucking Poughkeepsie, New York, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I get it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, these are all great points for like new people starting out. I have to re -listen to this. Like my head, like as I was listening to you speak though, my mind is racing about like a previous answer. So I often have to listen to these back.
Persistenc-E: That's because this is one of the few episodes where there's only one person on with ADD.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So...
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So, Brad.
brad: Ha ha.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um, towards solutions. If... If someone... feels like they are. putting off the delayed better thing. for the immediate thing that's under their nose because they for whatever reason What are some strategies they can employ that would help them maybe put you know shift the balance a little more towards delay?
brad: Yeah, well, you've been describing a few times that you sort of shift the time horizon. So you're looking for things that give you. a little bit of reward along the way.
brad: you know you use mini bosses so if there are ways to organize a project where you know maybe you have a component that you can build and be satisfied with even if you go through the process of even like finishing it just to make it super rewarding in that time.
brad: That helps. keep you motivated shrinking that time horizon so that's That's one way. Sounds like you use that a lot.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do.
brad: Eric, you do that?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric?
Persistenc-E: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Well. Good job, guys.
brad: You know... You know what I was thinking?
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: But you make you make content. along the way, right? So for you, ah the project is not...
Persistenc-E: Yeah I do.
brad: defined by like the whole project it's probably about how the
Persistenc-E: It's true.
brad: Content's coming along.
Persistenc-E: It's true. So there's there's several different things um that are happening simultaneously in each one of them. This is a thing I think I learned. Sorry, I was just being a dick when I was making that joke.
Persistenc-E: But yes. um This is a thing I realized about myself and and I have seen employed in strategies and cabinet shops where.
Persistenc-E: We might have worked on a thing for... you know. two months. And then you wait another two months for delivery because. the site isn't ready or whatever it is. um And if you were to do that exclusively, it would be very frustrating. but because there's five projects going on at any given time, the the deadline, the completion date staggers.
Persistenc-E: um And so you can you can get that same kind of satisfaction, that payout. And I think similarly. to the point you just made, the commission itself might take.
Persistenc-E: you know, anywhere from two to six months. but um breaking each component up into bite -sized storytelling chunks that are digestible for an audience, making a video about it, hitting deadlines with sponsors.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: um you know, Coming up with like, i I very rarely have the complete idea when I start a piece. So I have the direction and then I'm making creative decisions and kind of.
Persistenc-E: frankensteining it, for lack of a better way to phrase it, as I'm going. And so each one of those is a small creative payoff. um So yeah, there's, there's a bunch of mini bosses along the way for sure.
brad: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
brad: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What's another strategy, Brad?
brad: Yeah, I got two more. So the next one is... Kind of not super interesting, but it's... choice bundling so it's essentially making your decisions in a series. So instead of making a choice about what you're going to do for your...
brad: present self right now. which is a choice that's vulnerable to that immediate gratification. Make choices for a whole series. of of decisions As an example, If you... every single day decide well what am i gonna have for a snack right now You're going to pick.
brad: whatever tickles your fancy in that moment but if you decide what you're going to have for a snack every day of the week for the whole week. That's a choice that extends out in time. That's not about immediate gratification.
brad: So in the shop, maybe that's... Deciding what your next. Few projects are going to be. Maybe it's thinking about what you want to accomplish that year, that month.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
brad: So...
Persistenc-E: that's an interesting way. to i i i'm trying to figure out a way that that applies in the shop but just in my life the first thing that came to mind is like i'm meal prep right So like i'll I'll cook all my lunches on Sunday, like five usually four to five lunches.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: So i'll I'll let myself have a little treat at some point later in the week, go out and get some lunch.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: but That. alters the way that I think about. the meal like If I meal prepped. five Like. big max, I'd be like, I'm going to feel like shit by the end of the week.
Persistenc-E: You know what I mean? But, and so, so it is the long -term idea of like, okay, in order for my body to function on Saturday morning, what am I eating for lunch every day this week?
brad: Yeah. no
Persistenc-E: I, I, I would like to try to figure out how that plays out in the shop though. Like, what is the thing?
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Paul you've been thinking a long time over there
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I... Yeah. While you were talking about your lunches, I was thinking about like what version does that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: taken no i wasn't being snarky uh no i think that's great eric that's why you're so fucking fit and i'm so fat yeah it's a great example but I was thinking about you know how do we bundle choices in the shop i think that's like akin to saying i'm going to make this project and i'm going to use all hand tools or you know that's bundling a whole series of decision the joinery is going to be hand tools i'm going to cut things with hand tools i'm going to learn to use my chisels better i'm going to make some hand cut dovetails i'm going to do hand and cut mortise and tenon it's like you're not giving yourself the out you're saying i'm going to make this like they would have made it back in the old days and that's like a choice bundle right?
brad: i
Persistenc-E: ah ah
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In one project.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think that's ah the only example that came to mind.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: I... as you were saying that came to mind, like series would be a good choice bundle, right? So if I make, if I decide like, uh, uh, what Matt Kenny made, uh, 300 like a box a day or a box a week sorry 52 boxes in a year um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah hey
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Good. deciding that my next five projects were going to be iterations of the same cabinet so that I could grow the skill set and I could see a piece evolve over time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I...
Persistenc-E: Yeah, that's ah that's an interesting...
brad: yeah
Persistenc-E: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i do that all the time i make series all the time
brad: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I decide upfront. That's an interesting. Jeez, Brad, I never would have thought of it like choice bundling.
brad: Yeah, man Well this...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's very interesting.
brad: Yeah.
brad: And the last one. uh, is The term for it is episodic future thinking. All that means... All that means. I see how you're looking at me.
brad: is just essentially imagining your own experience far in the future. So instead of thinking about... right now. Try to imagine You're at the end of your woodworking career. Maybe you're at the end of your...
brad: Maybe it's at the end of the... the year or some kind of series you're doing, what do you want to be able to look back on? and say that you accomplished and let that drive your decision. So it kind of opens an interesting question.
brad: At the end of your woodworking careers, what do you want to look back on? and say that you did? What do you want to be able to show your grandkids, for example?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh. brad I think about that all the time, baby. I do. That's why I do these projects that take me a year or two because I don't want to die not having tried it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
Persistenc-E: I... I don't know if that plays out. It's a really interesting question. I don't know if that plays out. in. um motivation to make more things for me so much as it does.
Persistenc-E: the choices that I make as I'm making objects. ah Like, are they going to be objects that. stand the test of time are they going to be objects that feel honest are they going to be ah Like, did I make it?
Persistenc-E: Each piece that I made, was it the best piece that I could make in the time that I was making it? Or did I hop on a trend and just make some shit and like pay my bills? you know Um, So it feels...
Persistenc-E: more like an ethical quandary to me. Um, but It is. the delayed gratification in it.
Persistenc-E: is can I look back at the end of my life and be proud of my portfolio? Or did I just do a thing to survive? Did I just make the shit that everybody wanted because it paid the most?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Can you put a percentage on each of those?
Persistenc-E: Like how much have I done? Ooh.
Persistenc-E: I don't know. Cause I also don't have a problem with like. Like just doing a thing. because that's what the client wants, but I'm very particular about my clients. So, you know.
brad: think
Persistenc-E: um
Persistenc-E: I don't know I'd have to think about that for a while I don't want to...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah You think?
Persistenc-E: Okay, go ahead.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Brad, get on the couch. What's your percentage, buddy?
brad: Yeah. I, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're putting the psychologist on the couch now.
Persistenc-E: Mmm.
brad: Yeah, do it, do it. Yeah, I feel like I've been vulnerable to giving in to the immediate gratification and doing kind of small things that let me do one new little skill. But I know already like at the end.
brad: When I'm... More advanced. I'm not going to be super excited about the like. little wooden cake knife or the spatula or the cutting board or whatever. so I actually did just have to sort of force myself to start on like an end table.
Persistenc-E: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh?
brad: incorporate some new things.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
brad: I'm... I'm... I'm... integrating these lessons in the moment.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: See, I don't know how. I mean, you know this stuff inside out. You think about it every day.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How? How does it not Troll. into your brain in the shop per se.
brad: Oh, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and just Just...
brad: paralyze me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
brad: Yeah. yeah yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like... How did you do immediate gratifying tasks for so long, knowing so much about the topic?
brad: Yeah, I don't think I would have made it though. like you know I was one of the... early woodworkers that didn't have a lot of tools or a lot of skills and if it wasn't If I wasn't getting kind of a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
brad: relatively consistent payoff. I'm not sure I would have made it through the through to the other side, right? have the... bandwidth to really think about what to do that's going to be a long -term
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I get it.
brad: rewarding activity. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I get it. But now you're at a place where you can see that in your future episodic thinking that this is where you want to be.
brad: Yeah.
brad: Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right?
brad: Totally man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh I love it. Okay, ready? We're going to transition to a lightning round. I feel like we've done... and like this This whole topic has, to me, been eye -opening. I never really thought about it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you, Brad. It's like, whoa.
brad: Thank you, guys. yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, so let's go to a lightning round. I thought this might be fun. This is our second segment. And I thought, why don't I ask you guys, maybe we could all. ask a few questions that is it Is your answer immediate? Is your answer delayed? What do you do?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i don't want you to think about it long you have to fucking answer quick
brad: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Brad. Okay.
brad: yeah
Persistenc-E: he's like I'm out
brad: Jesus Christ.
Persistenc-E: He's like, I now feel uncomfortable. I can't i can't commit to this bit.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, Brad.
brad: aha ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you're up you're on You're up first, Brad. Ready?
brad: All right, what do we got?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A friend calls you on a Wednesday night and asks to go out to dinner and have a few drinks. You don't have plans. But you do have work on Thursday. What do you do?
brad: I'd probably go.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric?
Persistenc-E: I'm self -employed. I can show up to work at fucking noon. I'm going.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I absolutely go all right next question
Persistenc-E: ah Hmm.
brad: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You won the lottery. Eric. You won the lottery. Do you take the lump sum or do you take the long -term payout?
Persistenc-E: 100 % dividends. i think I think about this regularly. 100 % dividends. I don't need that. Fuck what the financial lawyers are telling you. They're just trying to take their cut, man. Give me that give me that slow drip, baby.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, Brad.
brad: I'd probably take the lump sum, actually.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I would take the lump sum too.
brad: Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Oh, you sons of bitches.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What?
Persistenc-E: You sons of bitches.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's so weird. the two delayed people the two like ultra delayed people take the lump sum Like, what's this? out i we have to there's There's more there.
brad: It's so much money.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe we'll go into the after show.
brad: Yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. You're going to have a baby. Eric, do you learn the gender at the first ultrasound or do you wait for the birth?
Persistenc-E: Ooh. oh That's interesting. I actually think. That's the mom's decision more than anything else.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Persistenc-E: I would be more than happy to learn at the birth.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's say it's your decision.
Persistenc-E: Okay, I'd be, birth. Surprise me. let's fuck in Let's talk about it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Brad?
Persistenc-E: Let's figure it out.
brad: Yeah, i'd that'd be a group decision. I'd probably be okay either way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ugh. Oh, you guys. This is assuming it was unilateral and you had to make a decision.
brad: I'd probably want to know right away
Persistenc-E: m Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i I think I would probably know...
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right away for planning purposes for planning purposes because i'm a planner i mitigate risk
Persistenc-E: Really?
brad: Yeah. Yeah.
Persistenc-E: Planning purposes. i feel like I feel like learning when it comes out is like, that's the most human experience you could have, man, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mitigate risk.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know, maybe maybe now.
brad: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe now I would. I would, but the old me would have known sooner. All right, you're going somewhere. Ready? Do you take the scenic route or do you take the fast highway to get there? Eric.
Persistenc-E: ah Am I driving or taking the bike?
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're driving
Persistenc-E: I'm driving. no Probably scenic route.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay?
Persistenc-E: more More often than not.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Brad?
brad: Yeah, if I enjoyed the scenery, I would take the scenic route
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah, sh - Shit.
brad: If it's just like fields and shit, no, I'm not doing that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Persistenc-E: they was good I was going to say, that's a very Midwest answer.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well... It's scenic.
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's not cornfields.
brad: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Yeah. ah Golly. I feel like the women in my life made me take the highway, but I would have liked to take the scenic route.
Persistenc-E: oh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, I just got in big trouble. Next time Sherry's on or next time Vicky's around bringing me whiskey, immediate gratification.
brad: Yeah.
brad: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm in. deep shit Eric, here's the final question. ah Brad, feel feel free to plead the fifth.
brad: Again.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric. A quickie today. or a more all -encompassing romantic experience in five days.
Persistenc-E: Is this with a person I know or don't know? what like would Am I currently in a relationship?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and Someone you know. Yes, you're in a relationship.
Persistenc-E: What's happening?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A quickie today or a mole. more all -encompassing romantic experience in five days.
Persistenc-E: I guess, I guess five days. I don't know. like i I mean, I need more context for this, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Persistenc-E: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Brad, are you going to plead the fifth or do you want to answer?
brad: Yeah. No, I'm gonna say both. Five days? I mean, that's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm 100 % the quickie today. Okay, on that note. Well, Brad, thank you. It's ah it's been an absolute pleasure.
brad: ha
Persistenc-E: Appreciate you, buddy.
brad: Alright.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ending on that topic.
Persistenc-E: Okay. Very curious to hear more about your quickie preferences in the after show.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, there yeah.
brad: Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so ah We will ah transition to the after show. If you'd like to join us there, all you have to do is join our Patreon. And Brad, thank you again. i
Persistenc-E: Yeah. Thanks, brother.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm going to think about this ah with respect to myself from now.
brad: Thank you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Forever. And I hope the listeners. think take a long hard think about whether you are an immediate or delayed kind of person and is that affecting ah your life in the shop.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and in other ways as well. If you have any questions, you can... ah Put them in.
Persistenc-E: You can... You can email Paul.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you can Yeah, you can put them in the liner notes.
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: specific
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And if they're good enough, ah I'll send them to Brad to answer because he's actually qualified to answer them.
brad: you
Persistenc-E: ah
brad: Yeah. Nice.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, we'll see you all in the after show.
brad: Peace.
Persistenc-E: Okay, bye.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks, y 'all. Bye.
