Transcript
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Here again, we are with another barn burner. We are, this is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast about why we do the things we do, not how we do the things we do. i'm your co I'm your co-host, Paul Jasper of Fine. ah oh my God, you're really, really stumbling out of the gate, buddy. Oh my God, it's terrible. you don't and even and You really don't edit these, huh?
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the one take, Jake. Keep it going. All right, go. i'm your I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig, woodworking scientist by day, woodworker by night. And I got my boy in the chair, Eric Kurtzfein, furniture maker and content creator.
Speaker: Como estas, bitches? You haven't gone to the biblioteca lately. No, I have not. Don't even style a biblioteca. Today's episode ah is something we've never touched on, and that is marketing and the ethics of marketing. Obviously, we all know that marketing is important for the sale of anything, and we are all subject to marketing ah as in our daily life. I think we all see about 500 advertisements a day or something on average, but also with respect to all, like the majority of listeners are
Speaker: makers of some sort or artists or, and even if you're not, I'm sure this comes into your job. And so who I thought could help us with the difficult discussion on marketing and the ethics behind it is my friend, Dave Dennis, Dave and I, Dave is hi, Dave.
Speaker: Uh, it's the audio format, Dave. I'm going to need you to hit me with a Hey. Yeah. I don't want to talk over paul I had my coaching. Dave is co-founder of Ventana Surfboards and Supplies, who also have has a very successful 25-year-plus job in the tech sector. And he has helped to build Ventana Surfboards and Supplies ah you know from something very, very small into a trusted, awesome brand that it is today. And Dave has...
Speaker: just talked with me so much over the years about marketing and the importance of it. And I kept saying, I need a Dave. I need a Dave in my life. that i Do you remember me saying that to you? Yeah, we would text at like one in the morning and I would get, I need a Dave. And the reality is you're way better at it than I am.
Speaker: Actually, I'm not. That's not even close to true. But you are one of my favorite people. You inspire me. And I couldn't think of anyone better or nicer to have on the podcast today. Thank you, you Dave. Thank you.
Speaker: So we're going to ask Dave, you know, Dave, obviously you've thought about marketing a lot more than I have. ah When you hear the term marketing, like what does that mean to you in a general sense? I mean, it's everything that represents your business or you as a person publicly. Right. I think of marketing is storytelling. Right.
Speaker: And basically it's the story that you're telling everyone trying to get the right message to the right person at the right time. And it's it's it's so much more than just like an ad that you're sending out or a piece of content that you're putting on the web. it's that It's everything that goes on around your company that the public sees, how you represent yourself ah you know when you're having a one-on-one conversation in a store, what your brand values are, how you represent those brand values, how you make product choices and service choices based on your brand, based on those brand values. like It's so...
Speaker: It's so expansive. But to me at the baseline, it's storytelling. It's you telling a story about you, your brand, your business, what's important and trying to hit a target audience that that resonates with and having a clearly defined target audience when you're, when you're doing that there,
Speaker: or I don't know if you've ever read the Cluetrain Manifesto. You know what that is? No. So it was a, ah kind of there must have been like 180 points on this thing. It was called the Cluetrain Manifesto. It was published online in the early and the very early days of the internet.
Speaker: And it's totally worth a read because it's completely relevant still. But the one point in the manifesto that always stood out to me is that markets are conversations. And if you don't participate in the conversation, the conversation will happen without you.
Speaker: And that didn't used to be that didn't used to be the case at scale, right? Like you'd go to the you know to the PTA meeting or something, you'd have three or four conversations about some new restaurant that you liked.
Speaker: Now there's Google reviews and Facebook reviews and Yelp reviews and TripAdvisor reviews and Reddit threads and Instagram posts. and I mean, I could go on for another hour, right? The conversations are happening without you, whether you like it or not.
Speaker: And since markets are conversations, you need to be involved in those conversations and telling your story all the time. And that's marketing. Oh, dude. Damn, that's like so dense off the jump, man. right Right? I just made all that up. Give me a sec, please. Well, first of all, go read the Clue Train Manifesto. You're going to be blown away because they turned it into a book. Can you spell that?
Speaker: Clue Train. Like, get on the Clue Train. Get a clue. Oh, that um train okay. Train. Clue Train Manifesto. I didn't know if that was like a coal train or like, I don't know what was happening. No, no, no. I mean, guys are probably a little younger than I am. So you were probably in middle school or something when that thing came out.
Speaker: In the early ninety s Yeah, i was definitely in middle school in the early 90s. I was college. I know you guys are are younger than I am, but. All right, so markets are conversations and they're gonna happen with or without you.
Speaker: So it's to your best interest to be in them. Part of that, yeah. And to be authentic, because call bullshit. Great title for your podcast. The markets are gonna call bullshit on you faster than you can imagine.
Speaker: And if you're not in in the middle of those conversations and doing the mea culpas and being authentic and you know managing your relationship with those markets, you're screwed.
Speaker: So you got yeah my very first reaction to that is you're saying be authentic about your marketing. But I see so much deceptive marketing on a daily basis. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, the other thing is, is that people are also very gullible. yeah right so Yeah. Right? So you can be an authentic. I mean, we're seeing that all over the place and you know the political sphere and everywhere else. And you're going to be able to convince an awful lot of people.
Speaker: Does the inauthentic ah marketing ploy, does that make for, to say sustainable business, and I don't mean like ecologically sustainable or ethically sustainable, but does it does that business sustain itself over time? Or when people receive the product, realize it's a piece of shit, does that company then inevitably fold?
Speaker: I don't know the answer. i think it really depends on the company. It depends on the product. It depends on the misstep. It depends on how they react to it. Um, there's also like, I'm a total relativist. Like, I don't believe that there's authenticity and inauthenticity.
Speaker: It's a continuum. And so you can be totally authentic while, you know, not talking about the pieces of your business that may be not aligned with what your market wants or what your brand is trying to get out into the world.
Speaker: Right. Like it and so it's, yeah. Well, Dave, can I ask you, um can we dive into the the Ventana sure of it for a moment? Because the way you just described it felt like, and I know we've only known each other for 15 minutes. I'm an idiot. You should know that up front. So like when I hear you describe things like markets and conversations are happening and get on the clue train, et cetera, et cetera, that feels all very like big macroeconomics.
Speaker: And I am a furniture maker who makes objects for individual clients. You were CEO of a surfboard manufacturing company. I don't know what the volume... I would say co-founder. like see okay When there's two of us, it's sort of...
Speaker: Okay. I'm doing it for free on the side. I and and not really see i appreciate your humility. I'm being authentic. speak by that Yes, for sure. that's right sure yeah Okay. So you're co-founder of this company that, you know, is it like started to develop a reputation in a brand and and you had clients.
Speaker: I don't know what type of volume you were producing. Did the rules still apply in the way that you just described them to high end, low volume businesses?
Speaker: ah Yeah. Like I'm not on Google Maps and I don't think it matters. you know No, i I mean, I i think it's ours is small enough scale where the it's easy very easy to manage the conversation.
Speaker: I think if we had grown to the the size that I always had in mind and I was never willing to quit my day job, I actually did a TEDx talk 10 years ago called Don't Quit Your Day Job. um and And so like in in our small scale, it's actually quite easy to manage those conversations. As you grow, I think it's extremely difficult.
Speaker: And I have some of that experience in my day job. I work for Microsoft. um But I think at at the smaller scale, you know, with a limited customer base, it's actually much easier.
Speaker: What does the conversation look like then at that point? like So at Ventana, when you say to to limit the conversation or be a part of the conversation, are you working with individual clients doing custom work? Are you making a product and selling it to a very niche audience? like what What is the conversation that's happening?
Speaker: Yeah, so we so we'd sell hollow wooden surfboards made only out of reclaimed wood. And that's the core of the business. We have ancillary products that go along with the brand, like Paul's wearing that t-shirt right now, because not everyone can afford what we're doing. But a lot of people, the the brand and our values and what we were trying to do in the market resonated.
Speaker: So we wanted to have products that fit what what we were doing. You know, a $5 bar of surf wax that was giant and organic and cool, all the way up to our surfboards, which are kind of the the the core of what drives the brand because um they're $10,000 to $20,000 each.
Speaker: And it's probably the most expensive turf boards in the world. They're also probably the highest artisanship. um But ah so... the the The conversation is interesting in that you what you could say is, and this is frankly true, we're a brand that sells to very wealthy people.
Speaker: a lot of our folks are you know wealthy venture capitalists and tech people in the Silicon Valley. And we have a ah pretty good sustainability story. And so that the the story, and I've heard this a little bit, and sometimes I'll see it in places like Reddit, like, hey, you guys you can talk about sustainability and and you know environmental responsibility and everything, but it's only accessible to this tiny group of you know very wealthy customers. So that's kind of bullshit.
Speaker: And reality is it kind of is bullshit. Yeah. So we do try to have a ah range of products that can appeal to lots of people um and that each one of them is is aligned with three brand values that we've had for the last 12 years.
Speaker: And I can tell you with every single product, what part of their brand values are not being met and what part of them are and what part of our story is bullshit and what part isn't. But frankly, talking about the part of your story that's bullshit is part of the authenticity.
Speaker: Do you know what I mean? ah yeah I can talk to you. I can tell you all about your t-shirt. Like I could spend the next two, three, five minutes telling you about that t-shirt. Okay. Tell me about this t-shirt. Okay. I'll give you the authentic story and where it's great and where it falls short.
Speaker: So that, that one is a recycled polyester made from recycled plastic bottles and, um, organic cotton. Okay. That sounds all great. Doesn't it? Well, polyester, you lost me with microplastics. Exactly. So that was where I was going to go. So even though it's recycled, all of that recycling happens in China. And most of it happens when people from, you know, US and elsewhere are shipping plastic bottles over there that get shredded and turned into polyester, which when washed and dried get turned into microplastics.
Speaker: which are apparently in all of our brains now. So we've stopped using polyester, even though it's got a great recycled story. the The art on the front was done, i can't remember who did that for us. It was done by, i think it actually may have our logo designer. It may have been a local person also.
Speaker: Now that's really cool. It's nice. It matches one of our best surfboard designs. The, um, the, the ink that you have is plastisol. So it's a plastic based ink, not a water based ink. So it's not quite as good for the environment. And then you have the microplastic story. However,
Speaker: The silkscreener that did all of our shirts at that time was a group called Barrios Unidos. And Barrios Unidos provides job opportunities for um people that are coming out of prison and former gang members and things like that.
Speaker: it was ah It's a nonprofit. So that's a great part of the story. Our hang tags, like, you know how you usually go into a store and you have those those little plastic things that get shot through with a needle?
Speaker: So we never allowed any plastic tags to be put on any of our products. So what we did was we took, and you've used some of this wood because we've done collaborations. We took mahogany.
Speaker: guitar neck off cuts from the Santa Cruz Guitar Company. And we turned those into little tags that had a piece of paracord on them that were left over from a product that was made by ah another local company.
Speaker: And we put a key ring on it. And that would be the thing on that was stuck as the price tag on on all shirts. And... That was also, the paracord is also a leash cord. So if you were without a leash cord for your surfboard, you could take it literally off the key chain tag that came on your shirt that was recycled wood.
Speaker: So we had this great collaboration story with Santa Cruz Guitar Company and this terrific sustainability story about using their trash. But all paracord is made overseas. It's got a polyester story. The metal rings that we use for the key chain were also all come from China because good luck trying to buy any of that stuff in the U.S. anymore.
Speaker: So I could keep going, right? this Oh my God. I could keep going and going and going and going. So this whole idea of like, so i could I can tell you an authentic story about the positive side, but in the reality, when you look at the negative side, it can be considered greenwashing.
Speaker: But because I'm sitting here on ah um you know one of the world's most popular podcasts, I'm being i'm being authentic about both sides. but And I can do that for every single one of our products. And by the way, I can connect all of it to the $10,000, $20,000 surfboards because the design on the shirt is is a is a really, a you know, one of our most popular surfboards. in the wood Can we go back to that, Dave? So so I don't know how much a like a stin like a good middle-of-the-road surfboard costs.
Speaker: About a good middle of the road surfboards about $1,200, $8,000 to $1,200. Okay. $800, $1,200 in in like competition grade surfboard? What are we talking? yeah A little more than that. It depends on the size. It depends on who made and it depends on Okay. So it it's $2,000, $3,000? Maybe $3,000 would be way up there.
Speaker: Would be way up there. And so you're you're selling the Rolls Royce of surfboards out here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I like, what I used to say, when I got my partner to join, you know, to come together with me, he was already building boards. I'd said, you know, ah everybody loves Bosi. A lot of people, not everybody, a lot of people love Ferraris, but they can't afford them. So they buy the t-shirt.
Speaker: but the The surfboards, the surfboards are not, are, are almost never ridden. i was going to ask. Yeah. Do that. yeah the all So we had two rules, always built to ride. Every board was built to ride, even if it was going to hang on the wall and we would never buy wood.
Speaker: So we're a wood a wooden surfboard company that had a rule. And there's a tiny exception to that, that would never buy wood. And that kept us honest, but only using reclaimed materials. um And so those were the two things, but they're, they're, they ride great. They're super fun, but they're so expensive and they're art pieces that they're almost all hang on the walls. even And where, where, where were you getting your, your material supplied from?
Speaker: So you can see a long list if you go ventana.surf partners. But we created this thing early on called the Upcycle Partner Program. And there were two reasons for that. One of them was because we wanted to have a great sustainability story.
Speaker: um The other one was because we wanted to be differentiated from any other surfboard maker in the world, even if they were making wooden surfboards. And there's not a lot that are. And so we would go out and find, I would generally go out and find really interesting places that I thought would have really cool wood with a really cool backstory that could differentiate our products and get people really excited about them.
Speaker: And I'd go ask for their trash. And so ah ah I'll give you a few examples of really cool stuff. We have um tons and tons of offcuts of every kind of wood you can imagine from the Santa Cruz Guitar Company. And Paul has a bunch of that as well. And he's done some collaborations with them. They're they're celebrating their 50th year. They're one of the best acoustic guitar makers in the world.
Speaker: And their wood is sustainably sourced. So it's like this cool double thing. We have wood from the boat that John Steinbeck took into the Sea of Cortez in 1940 and wrote the book, The Log from the Sea of Cortez. That just came from me asking the guy that owned the boat that was refurbishing it.
Speaker: And he they brought it down to us for free from Washington. And have some of that, and I have some of that that you sent me. And when you cut it, you can smell the diesel fuel that was flooded into the wood. Amazing. Our most profitable product, you're going to laugh. Our most profitable product is ah is a a bookmark.
Speaker: And the bookmark is made from the hull of the original Western Flyer boat. And it's, if I gave you this piece of wood, you'd smell it and go, this smells like diesel fuel. It's gray. It's Douglas fir, but it looks like God knows what, because it's been so saltwater, diesel fuel, or engine oiled, you know, for years.
Speaker: It's the boat sank three times. Like it's crazy. And, uh, but then when I tell you the story back to the thing about marketing being storytelling, This piece of wood is a bookmark that's made from the hull of one of the most famous fishing boats in the world.
Speaker: And it was made by one of the top artisans in the world who make some of the most incredible surfboards in the world. and It's the same wood that's used in products like Copper Pig makes and that are in our boards.
Speaker: And it takes a minute to make and it's $24. So it's literally trash. that's made by my partner takes them couple minutes, but we sell it for $24 because the provenance is so amazing.
Speaker: So i'm i'm so so glad to listenm I'm so glad you used the word provenance, man. I've been trying so hard to get that word.
Speaker: Because that word, for for our listeners who are unfamiliar with the term, like that's ah that's an art world term, right? It's a gallery world term, museum world term, where like where where does the thing originate from? where where Where does its value come from? Because the value is not necessarily the object itself. It's the story behind the object.
Speaker: and Dave, like what everything that you've just said, and i'm I'm not saying this to be snarky because I do the exact same thing. I'm not trying to be a dick. and It sounds to me like you would agree with me. You're not selling surfboards, man. no like the surfboard Fuck the surfboard. You're selling the story. You're getting people to spend $20,000 an idea.
Speaker: which is incredible. And and a surfboard. It's both. no the surfboard The surfboard is just represented. If they're not riding the surfboard, the surfboard represents the idea that they love about Ventana. If they were riding the surfboard, this is, I mean, they me hood look, look, this is, this is the, the thing, like the sweet spot I try to hit and why I, I love furniture because, I can have my cake and eat it too a little bit because I can sell the idea. I can ask somebody to spend $10,000 on a, on a table or a cabinet or whatever it is. And then I get to pretend like I'm actually building them something functional that they're using. Cause they fucking open a door and get a whiskey bottle, which is, you know, like this get the fuck over yourself. No, we use, we use the, we use the wood for everything.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And if I were to just sell a sculpture, this is just my, how, how my justification works in my brain. If I were to just sell a sculpture, I'm only selling an idea. um and and so like, that's, I'm, I'm doing the same thing you're doing is what I'm saying. So I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but like,
Speaker: Come on, man, we're not selling surfboards. We're making no you're object objects that people want to believe in and hanging on their wall. The storytelling, like it goes back to the story. The marketing is the storytelling and the story for us is, and that's why we're not just about surfboards. We try to keep aligned with the ocean thing, but like we,
Speaker: like We've given wood to so many people to make art and to, you know, Paul has some of the stuff that we've done and we've worked with companies that make jewelry and we do out of the wood and we do, we've invented some products and we've got ah all kinds of different stuff that's helps tell the story.
Speaker: So you're absolutely right. um We happen to tell that story in the context of the of the surfboards and people love the surfboards and they're amazing on the wall and all that. But you're you're right. That's exactly right.
Speaker: and And I could just go, i could literally spend an hour telling all the stories of every single splinter of wood that we have. Floorboards that are from the whiskey barrels from... you know whiskey barrels that that are you know from the 1950s. That's why you're good at it, though. He's so good at it. Dude, I don't know really. like so Full disclosure, i only know of Antana through Paul. I've seen some of the things that you guys make. Obviously, it's beautiful stuff. but but ah like Even just listening to you talk about it, and and I don't even have the context for all of this,
Speaker: You can tell just by your cadence that you know the information inside and out. It is a part and you believe it. It's very genuine. And that's the thing that makes you good at it. Like it is it is the belief in the thing that you're doing that makes people believe in what you're doing.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I mean, I don't have the kind of talent that you guys have, nor that Martijn, my business partner, Martijn Stepout has. So i've got I've got to be good at other things. And, you know, sales, marketing, business development, and, you know, being able to tell the story is is a big part of it. I mean, Dave. what Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker: No, please finish your thought. No, was going to say when Martijn started, he started building wooden boards because out of necessity, he couldn't really afford boards. So he started building boards. He wanted to do it in an environmentally responsible way.
Speaker: He didn't have materials. So he was finding trash that he could use to build the boards, literally started for himself. And i when we first joined forces, which is also an interesting story, of how that happened. But, um, I said, holy shit, that's the story. Like the, your artisanship has to be top notch, but the story that we can tell with these different wood sources that we're going to go get.
Speaker: And now people come to us all the time. you know, and they say, Hey, we've got this thing or that thing. But it comes back to the brand values, which go ahead. I'll tell you about the brand values in a minute, but you wanted to say something. Tell me about the brand values first. Okay. So, and they're in they're in a very specific order and they're in a very specific order on purpose. There's three brand values. There's three words, artisanship, responsibility, adventure.
Speaker: And so artisanship is number one because nobody gives a shit about the responsibility. This motherfucker good. Right? Right? I told you. He's the best I've ever met. Oh, stop it. So, so artisanship is the, you guys know this too, right? It doesn't matter what the story. Yes, you do. It doesn't matter what the story is. If the artisanship doesn't hold up the quality.
Speaker: And by the way, quality is another component of responsibility. which kind of feeds into the next one. But like, it doesn't matter if you, the whole nobody really ultimately cares about sustainability and, you know, organic and whatnot. They they care.
Speaker: But if the quality isn't there, it doesn't matter. And so artisanship is always for us, number one, it's gotta be quality. Responsibility is social environmental responsibility as best we can and being honest about where we're not meeting the mark.
Speaker: And there are other parts to that too. Like I still go into classrooms and I teach kids and I talk about business and we talk about sustainability and we talk about woodworking. And so there's a piece of giving back that's responsibility. We started an ocean conservation scholarship We give at least $3,000 every year to a student um who's going to be studying ocean conservation or some sort of science in that area.
Speaker: and And so all of that's part of the responsibility, which helps tell the story. And then the last one is is adventure. And adventure is like everything has to be usable in the wild. Like your hoodie that we sell has to be great for checking the surf on a cold morning in Santa Cruz where we are.
Speaker: The surfboard has to be built to surf. Everything has to be usable. Artisanship, responsibility, and adventure. Every product maps to those brand values in some way. Every partnership we have has to map to those brand values. And we use that as a filter to decide what we're going to do, what we're going to build, who we're going to work with. And that was one of the reasons why working with you is so great because you align with those values.
Speaker: We found each other on Instagram, but like... Does Paul hit the artisanship, responsibility, and adventure? Of course he does. 100%. Yeah. yeah but Anyway. it Eric.
Speaker: He's fucking good. He's good. Eric, you came into this, and I'm like, one of my close friends, Dave, he inspires me. And this is you can fucking hear it. I saw you smiling because you fucking knew. Every I i told you was true. You could hear it in this motherfucker's voice. Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker: now you Now I'm thinking I got to quit my day job again. Every time I do one of these, I get so excited. Look, i've I think deep about things. Like i go I go fairly deep about things in most cases. i I drill down a few levels and I want to, you know, my curiosity is like, you know, where does this come from? Why does it matter? What's the pollution? What's the ecological cost? What's the, you know, value to the, human and and I think I go deep. And then I met you.
Speaker: And the level of depth, like even about this t-shirt makes my head spin. The fact that you thought 20 layers deep about a t-shirt is is is equal parts mystifying and inspiring and scary. It's like, I am not used to anybody who does that. You were a true anomaly in my life. And as soon as I met you and we started talking, i was like, I just want to be part of this. Like, I don't even care what I do. is Sign me up because I want to be around people who think like you. and that's how we i mean you're also how we started working. Thank you. You're one of the smartest people I know, and that makes a huge difference, right? Because it gets that great we get to have great conversations like this, but thank you for that.
Speaker: And I do want to tell you, Dave and his wife, were Linda, were over our house, I don't know how many years ago now, what, five years-ish? I looked it up yesterday. I think it was 21, so it would have been five years.
Speaker: Okay. You were with me. And i don't remember if this is where it came up, but you said to me, you're like, I took it on as a personal challenge not to tell lies, not to lie.
Speaker: I am going to challenge myself. I decided I'm going to challenge myself. No more lies to anyone about anything. And that's, and I work at it daily. You said, and I was like, again, again, Dave fucking floored me, Dave. They're so like, I talked to so few people who really like, like are so,
Speaker: Like, you're so interesting. You're like, i never heard anyone say that. And I was like, so i was ah like, like a lightning bolt had hit me. And i was like, well, that's an interesting idea.
Speaker: Like why why do we lie? You got me thinking about so many things. Like why do we lie? Why do we tell lies? How often do I tell lies? And could i do that?
Speaker: And you inspired me to try and not tell any more lies to anyone about anything. and there's there's been so few times that i can point and say someone inspired me to the degree that i tried to actively change my life but you saying that actually you really put a fork in the road for me in that way and i led by i've been doing it for the last five years i've been trying to lie to no one about nothing and i just this tonight before we got on the call i asked my wife and my daughter i was like do you guys think that i've been successful
Speaker: in telling no lies or am I sugar like am I like gaslighting myself because they know and they tell me the truth and they're like no we can't think of a single time you've lied it's not great and I'm always you called me handsome earlier today don't fucking lie to the people I mean come on let's fucking and be honest he is definitely the most handsome of the three of us so I that's no lie i and I tell you I love you all the time, Eric, and that's not a lie. now That is a lie too that a lie. That is not. and so but so think about you The thing about the lying is really interesting. I don't remember why I did it, but um but it fits with the brand. right we never wanted We always wanted to be authentic. Again, it doesn't mean you tell the whole truth. and By the way, i have an i have I have an exception. Give examples. Give an example. well Let me give you my exception. My exception is humor.
Speaker: You're allowed to lie. or share sharing You're allowed to lie to be funny. But then everybody recognizes that it's a lie. yeah um but But I wouldn't call that a lie. um you don't tell but You don't have to tell the whole truth. like Let me think of a really good example. Because it happens all day long.
Speaker: Um, and before I do that, though, the thing that floors me every single time I say it to somebody, and I i don't like put it out there as like, I'm bragging, but like every once in a while, it'll come up.
Speaker: Um, ah two reactions and often the same reaction, that reaction twice from the same person, which is a they don't believe it. And B, they, when they do believe it, they're blown away.
Speaker: and And I always find that super fascinating because what that tells you is everybody's fucking lying to you all the time about all kinds of things. and And it's, so to me, it'll be, I'll give you an example. Like if you don't want to go to somebody's party,
Speaker: this is a tiny little example. If you don't want to go to somebody's party because you know, you're not super happy about who's going to be there or um you know, last time you were there, you didn't have a good time or whatever.
Speaker: You, you don't, you don't have to say to them, i you know, I really don't like you or I really don't like the people that are going to be there. You don't have to lie though. You don't have to say, oh you know what? I've got ah another thing I have to do.
Speaker: Like you tell me what might you say to not lie in that situation? I would say, i thank you for inviting me, but I have other plans. And those plans are, and I would't i would stop there. But in my head, those plans are to spend my time more valuably in the shop or with that's right my wife and my child. That's right. So it's true. It's true. i had I had other plans, that's right but I just didn't say what they were. Yeah, exactly. And and so I had said, you don't have to. Yeah, that's exactly what I would do. Right, because that would hurt their feelings. That's right.
Speaker: can Can I swing? that I love this conversation. Can I swing it to the business ethics side of things? So i' I'll bring up a personal example first, which I think is very much in line with this. As I build things for clients all the time and I make videos about them and in um largely at this point, my my client base are people who watch me on the internet. So part of the experience for them is to see me build the thing and get the stories that I'm telling whilst I'm doing that. But um I fuck up all the time.
Speaker: Like I make mistakes ah daily. And so I'll give you a perfect example. Today I'm building a bench for a client. I think he listens to this podcast. We'll find out. And I was making ah the end cap for the tail vice hardware and I cut the mortise too big, you know? And so I went in and I patched in a piece of walnut and I recut the mortise and it's fine. And I thought like,
Speaker: Is this valuable information for folks to see that I fucked up and I could fix it? Or is it just belaboring a point? Ultimately, I decided not to film. it I just wanted to get the thing done. So in the story of the object, as it unfolds on the internet, I didn't make a mistake.
Speaker: But it's just it's it's it's an omission it's an omission. It's an omission. There's plenty of other examples of. But did you say did you say at the end I and i didn't make a mistake? and Right. Right. So this is the point that you're making. Right. I wasn't like I did a perfect job on this. I just didn't acknowledge that I fucked it up. Now, can it can I bring this to your business, to Ventana for a second? um the whole The story, so I've got the website pulled up. I'm looking at the boards as you guys are talking. And the the story is all about the sustainability and and the the ecological minimizing the ecological impact of making new surfboards, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and I'm seeing in a lot of the board, first of all, I don't know what goes into making a surfboard. I don't know what type of finish is used in a surfboard, et cetera, et cetera, but I imagine there's some plasticizer in there to make sure it's not getting waterlogged.
Speaker: Right. It's bio-based epoxy is all we use. So entropy resins and a soy based resin called, um, okay. So, so I'm seeing a lot epoxy eco. Okay. I'm familiar. Uh, and I'm seeing a lot of epoxy artwork on the boards. Um,
Speaker: Eco-Poxy, and please correct me if I'm wrong, um I've always felt is a little bit like a, is it though? You know? Like, is it really? Or is it still a plasticizer?
Speaker: Well, I mean, it's epoxy. It's the best. So ah entropy resins and eco epoxy are the two most sustainable from a materials perspective. Like they're not volatile. Martijn always wears a mask, but you don't actually have to.
Speaker: um But no, they're not. I mean, they they're not. theyre Nothing's perfect. like the but i Paul and I were talking about this yesterday that... the best way to be sustainable is to not buy anything and to get everything used.
Speaker: Like, but yes, I mean, it's not, you're right. It's not perfect. um It's a, it's the best story we can tell authentically, even if it's not perfect.
Speaker: And um yeah, I mean, the other thing is, is that we don't, so we're not a traditional surfboard maker. Traditional surfboard maker takes a block of foam And cuts it down. And so it's shit tons waste.
Speaker: A wooden surfboard is built up from a frame. So there's very little waste. And in fact, the waste that we do have can be used in a couple of ways. The wood scraps can go to somebody like Paul, so he can then reuse it.
Speaker: um The epoxy can drip and then you can collect the epoxy and make stuff out of that. So like we work with another surfboard maker that does a lot of colored resins. And over the months and years, it drips on the ground and it makes these giant like pieces of epoxy and all these cool colors.
Speaker: And then we've made knife handles out of it. We made key chains out of it. We work with jewelry makers to make jewelry out of it. So we try to be smart about what we're doing, but no, I mean, it's, it's, epoxy i mean yeah and and dave don't get me wrong this is not a criticism i'm just trying to bring up like talk so so i'll i'll bring up another example in my work and this is a conversation paul and i have had both in person and on the podcast is uh film building finishes plasticizers and finishes um shellac is great shellac doesn't do fuck all for me because my clients need finishes that will actually like
Speaker: hold up to pouring a scotch on them like spilling and spilling a bourbon you know like a like a sort what does that say about your customers here you know what does this say about me more that uh most of my students will bring me a bottle of bourbon as a gift at the end of a class that's really the worrying part i'm not mad at it but it's worried it says you're doing things right i but so so my point is this is like i'm gonna I know that I am adding plastic to planet earth by using these finishes, but I also am of the opinion that if I don't use these finishes, people will either discard my work or ah not purchase it. And by purchasing my work, I can guarantee that that piece is going to be in use for at least a hundred years, which is,
Speaker: 20x the amount of time an IKEA table is going to be in use, you know probably 10x the amount of time that any other solid wood mass manufactured piece of furniture is going to be in use. So what is what's the cost benefit analysis? And i would I would say that the amount of plastic perhaps you used in polyurethane resin is probably less than a single takeout container you get from your local tie or you know, whatever, you know, whatever, you know, whatever your restaurant is. So it's like penny wise pound foolish. Yeah. Right. Like,
Speaker: yeah We don't use poly, by the way. We use epoxy, but it's you know similar. that um But I just heard you say are three brand values. Artisanship, like you have the best some of the best artisanship in the world. Responsibility, because it's going to last a really long time and it's not going to be disposable. And you're thinking clear you're thinking about it. like You're not just doing it. like You're thinking about the implications.
Speaker: The use case. that You're talking about it. You're teaching other people. You're being honest about it. And then adventure, like i mean I guess drinking a bourbon is some sort of adventure, but I'm like, you map to our brand values. Hey, let's work together.
Speaker: Sure, sure. I mean, that's the heart. You know who else has great brand values, though? Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. ah Our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle. Dave, do you know WTB Woodworking? I don't. have you Have you been brought into the church of WTB? No. I haven't. Well, I'm an atheist also, so probably not. Well, that's okay, because this church is very much a humanistic church.
Speaker: So WTB Woodworking is at 390 Pike Road in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. And it is owned and operated by ah William Teresa Burkle, who is the patron saint of this podcast. And just just the hell of a huggable human being, you know?
Speaker: And let me tell you a little bit. Hey, if you ever go in person, him a squeeze. i want squeeze yeah I squeeze Paul every time I see you. I can't stress this enough. Ask for consent, but otherwise give him a squeeze.
Speaker: Let me tell you about the giveaway that he's doing real quick. From today until September 18th, he's doing a giveaway for a Maffel cordless plunge cut saw, an MT55, which i I think is the biggest one, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The retail value is $1,360. All you got to do is go to the website and click on the giveaway and obviously tell them that Woodworking is Bullshit podcast is how you found out about this. Also, I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you that if you go in person, you can get discounts on all of the materials that he has there. And again,
Speaker: Free caresses from Bill Burkle. Amazing. So go check it out. I've never met him, but when I meet him- You've never met Bill? No, no, but when I do, we're going to caress. Are you going to come down? Speaking of- it we are going to caress feels aggressive. Mutually caress. I have a feeling.
Speaker: are Are you going to come down for the open house? I don't know, Eric. Okay. We're not going to promote it then yet. I don't tell lies, but I'm not sure. oh you son of a bitch. Okay. there's a there's There's a second annual celebration coming up soon that I'm going to try to get Paul down for. ah Paul, why don't you tell the people about our friends over at Total Boat?
Speaker: I love me some TotalBoat. And this conversation about sustainability and plastic you know comes in and into when I think about TotalBoat, I use their products, but I use them on things that I know will last a long, long amount of time. My favorite thing to do is to mix their low viscosity, high performance epoxy with metal powders and use it as metal inlays into things. And while I, of course, I'm, you know, ah a friend of the environment and I think about my plastic use, I also think about what you said, Eric, which is sustainability of the item. Like people love these items and it uses such a small amount of epoxy that I feel like, you know, for for the longevity of that item,
Speaker: and the amount of love it's gonna get from its human owners compared to what people are using day to day in their existence, ah you know this is a small price to pay. so i i unabashedly use that in my work and it's always total boat. And the reason ah that use their epoxy was because it was low viscosity. So I could add more metal powder and it looks more like real metal, the more metal powder you add.
Speaker: Ken, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I recall correctly, when you were doing the um In the era where you were doing the the sushi trays with the ventana inlays and whatnot, you were also doing a lot of metal inlays. Were you not using epoxy to adhere the metal components? I was. Yeah, sometimes I use epoxy and sometimes I use CA glue, both of which I'm using from TotalBoat now. They have a new CA glue line that I've been using a lot of. their ca glue medium and i've been curing it with water by the way you don't even need nasty solvents if you just wipe some spit on the surface and you stick the ca glue i'm not even kidding wait what water cures ca a glue very fast no joke try it interesting well so wait yeah so now now i'm like where can we get spit that has a story right Just have Paul ship some spit out California way.
Speaker: Yeah, go go find someone famous and have spit in a cup. And now now all of a sudden there's the spit of, you know. Just make the surface moist with water or whatever, saliva, whatever you like. and hit that CA glue on it. And it it does, it may not accelerate as fast as acetone, but I mean, it's a few seconds. So like, who cares? Dave, I will tell you that I used to tell all of my students, I would make the joke that there's never been a piece that I've made that didn't have my DNA on it. um And then I stopped saying that because I heard how fucking weird that sounds and the implications of it. yeah So now now I just make sure to let them know that I usually bleed on every project. But you know who doesn't bleed?
Speaker: Gorillas. They do bleed, Eric. Toughest skin this side of the Mississippi. Well, fair enough. You know? and Fair enough. And, Paul, I've been using, you know what? I actually used the Gorilla wood glue today in the shop. You did? I did, because I had to i had to make that a affirmation aforementioned repair. And I, the thing about traditional yellow glues is there is a high amount of water content in them. And so if I were to make a repair, especially a joinery repair, and within, you know, a couple of hours, I go to refit that joint. By the time I go into the shop tomorrow, the water may have evaporated and now my joint's loose again, right? So ah Gorilla Wood Glue has less water and more glue than the other guys. So I did use it for that. So far, fantastic. We'll see what it looks like tomorrow. But I believe it' interesting i believe that their ah their claim that there is less water in there.
Speaker: And you won't need any wood filler, will you? Listen, we'll find out. But to to my knowledge right now, I don't need any wood filler. That's your job, baby boy. No, no, no, no, no. no no no no I'm not touching that after last episode. I'm not touching that. Well, you know, it gives you the strength and the filler gives you the finish, you know, and we all know that Paul loves to finish. So GorillaTough.com slash woodworking is BS.
Speaker: That's GorillaTuff.com slash woodworking is BS. And thanks to our sponsors for this week. GorillaTuff.com is canceling us after Well, here, I'll redeem you. I like i understood about 8% of what you guys were all talking about because I have you know i always say that, and this is true, Martijn didn't let me touch the tools because I would rip my hands off. so But today, I've been going around. I'm up in our house in Lake Tahoe using Gorilla duct tape.
Speaker: To like repair stuff that the short-term renters have screwed up. So I'm i'm literally repairing the house with Gorilla duct tape. That's hilarious. That's the second episode in a row that our guest has brought up Gorilla tape. I love Gorilla stuff. Every Gorilla, if there's like six things on the shelf and they're all different brands and there's one that's Gorilla, I will always buy the Gorilla. Well, most of the time we'll buy the Gorilla one unless it's like...
Speaker: Okay. and he does some and he doesn't lie. So, you know, true yeah most of the time, yeah most of the time I do. So, yeah. So go gorilla. I'm really happy that the podcast that I am on has some gorilla sponsorship. Yeah. Well, we'll see if we can get some gorilla tapes your way, buddy. Oh, I would love it. I'm using, I'm using the white and I really like it.
Speaker: Okay. um right right so uh do you have a question paul because i got it i do i want to come back to you know we kind of glossed over it like i'm still like it guys i don't you know your brains go so fast from topic to topic and i mine's fucking stuck about eight chapters ago dave's like let me tell you about that shirt right and he goes through yeah i'm still back on the shirt y'all motherfuckers gonna lose that's why you checked out for 20 minutes No, I just like, i so I'm still processing. And I think this shows that this to me shows maybe a differentiation point or a problem. I'm not sure which is like the level
Speaker: of scrutiny at which Dave has thought over every absolute element and origin and pro and con over every attribute of a t-shirt from who did the silk screening to the type of diet was to the longevity of it, to the fabric, to the tag, to the, this, to the, that, like how are,
Speaker: Are we doing that? Like, how deep are we going, Eric? Like, and to the listeners, like, how deep are you going into, the thinking about whatever products you're making or whatever products you're buying, and is it even realistic? Like that level, Dave, I don't know how you do it, honestly, because like I would drive myself crazy thinking that deep about everything in a day. Like every item I buy, like let's say you go grocery shopping and you apply that level of scrutiny to every item and you're like, well, I'm gonna read the ingredients and I wonder where this, right? Like it seems it seems intractable but it's so But it's so provocative at the same time to know that depth of story about the things that you put into the world. Like how do we, it's Eric, come on, you're giving me this confused look, but it's like, on the one hand, it's so admirable. And on the other hand, it's almost intractable. I'm not giving you a confused look. I'm i'm thinking, i feel like you're asking two different questions about the things that as creative people we put into the world versus what we consume as individuals. And those are two different things because we consume a huge swath of shit every day. And it is overwhelming and impossible to think about all us. all of the things that you consume. but But as a person who makes objects or things for a living, I think it is possible to think more deeply about the core components of the things that you are producing.
Speaker: That's a great separation of like consumption versus production. I i think equally about kind of both of them. My brain goes through the same thought process. I pick up a box of cereal and I look on the ingredients and I see a preservative called... like TBH and I'm like, what's TBH? And then I'm then I'm Googling in the aisle and 10 minutes later, I'm still reading like cancer studies on mice about TBH at certain doses. And then I'm thinking about, you know, what dose is it in the cereal? And then I'm weighing the cereal per unit gram. And it's like 20 minutes has gone by and I still didn't buy cereal. And um and I'm like sick to my stomach over the research.
Speaker: And I don't know what to do. And i I just get so exhausted. I just throw my hands up and I just walk out or buy it. I don't know. It just depends on the day. Yeah. I mean, I don't do that. I mean, i I can't do it in my daily life. Like I've tried and it's like literally I'll add another one to the buy used or don't buy anything. It's like go live in the woods somewhere and don't consume, which is probably the right thing to do for the planet. But like.
Speaker: I just have to pretend. i literally just have to pretend like I'm not doing that sometimes because it's you'll go nuts. It is intractable. It's also really hard to scale a brand like that.
Speaker: but Yeah, good it is. It's a borderline impossible. But coming back to the like the the hermit in the woods. I love this visual. I feel like we've all thought about it. We all like that fantasy is a common one.
Speaker: Is it the right thing to do for the environment? Because the the efficiency of chopping a tree down and burning it for fuel in the winter, like you're going to clear cut that forest by yourself in a matter of like a couple of years.
Speaker: Well, I mean, the good plants will grow back and you don't have to do it in a place that's cold, but sure. yeah im Sure. But if everybody does it, we're sure this is, this is the, like, I guess this is that you gotta, to well then I don't know. There's downside to everything. If everybody starts making their decks out of e-pay, we're going to clear cut the rainforest. That's right.
Speaker: And if everyone insists on like organically raised pastured animals, there's not going to be enough meat for the, to meet the supply. Not even close. I don't think, I don't, I'm not an expert on this, but it seems that way.
Speaker: So Paul, this, this is circling back to the question that I wanted to bring back up, which is kind of the, the X, Y axis of, of, business ethics or marketing ethics. When you and I were chatting earlier this afternoon about this call, um we brought up the fact that like one major axis is the the ecological sustainability of a business. And that's an important one. i'm not I'm not trying to lessen that one. But another one, another axis that you could look at is how you treat your employees.
Speaker: And another axis you could look at is accessibility. So if you are larger on any one of those axis, uh, axes, you're probably taking a hit on the other two. If you have, if you run a business that is incredibly ecologically sustainable, that means that your product is probably more expensive. And so it's not as accessible to the masses. If you're paying, if you're paying, uh, uh, whatever, if you're, if your main goal is, um,
Speaker: ethical business practices as an employer and making sure that your employees have a livable wage, you're going to have to compromise on profit. You're going to have to compromise. maybe Again, maybe your price goes up and it's not sustainable anymore. Or if you're trying to do, uh, uh, pay your employees well and make sure that people have access to well-made objects, uh, like you, you're, you're fucked on the third access. Yeah. I, I, so, but isn't that the fun part? Like,
Speaker: I love trying to think about all that. No, I mean, it's it's overwhelming. And sometimes you just have to throw up your hands and go, I don't know. And I do that all the time. But like, it's kind of fun to think about that. It's like, wait a minute. if It's like, it's like ah i don't play chess, but it's like a chess game. It's like a puzzle. They're like, okay, wait, if I move this piece, what's going to happen over here? and And can we make a balanced thing where we have an authentic story that we're telling to the right customer at the right time? Like, i yes, all of that is absolutely true. But you know That's true in your daily life. That's true in your business life. and i To me, that's the that's the fun part. you know Have you seen those ah that reel or TikTok or whatever it was since maybe like a year ago that was like there's any contractor would tell you you can have. yeah There's three options, right? There's fast, there's good, and there's and you can have two of the three.
Speaker: So it this feels very similar to that where it's like you can you can treat your employees well, you can be ecologically sustainable, or you can be accessible. You can't be all three. You can be two of the three.
Speaker: Yeah. or the Or you're you can be you can be all three. It's just you're not going to be as good in one or the other. Right. You know what mean? It's not like it's not like it. It's not like zero and 50. It's 20 here and 30 here. and and And then it's so nuanced in how you measure it. And it's, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, it's a hard one. I mean, I'm struggling with, you know, that i work in AI. I do a lot of stuff in AI. we use I use AI in the business.
Speaker: um And i I read about the environmental impacts and the water impacts and the land use issues and the electricity usage and the possibility of using non-sustainable electric sources and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: And at the end of the day, though, I'm always an optimist because I think... AI is potentially going to push us to the brink of having to solve the climate problem even better, faster, and ah more effectively than we would have had to otherwise. Because we need, we got to solve the problem if we're going to continue to grow and all these companies want to continue to grow.
Speaker: And so now, like, you look at nuclear. Like, I'm a big, I didn't used to be. I really think nuclear done right is the answer or not the answer. It's one of the answers. Now, there's a water issue with that.
Speaker: But I go, wait a minute, this is going to push us to have to come up with more sustainable energy use policy, more sustainable energy use consumption patterns. And so to some extent you go, wow, some of this stuff's going to take us to the brink. But I also am optimistic that humans it in the long arc will solve some of these problems. And this may be pushing us to a place where we have to solve it sooner.
Speaker: so i that all could be bullshit, but... No, I like that optimism. I don't disagree with that. We are more clever than we give ourselves credit for. And I think we can probably science our way out of any problem. The question is whether we dig a new hole that ends up being deeper than the hole we're already in. Which it does historically tends to be our pattern. In the longest arc, a billion years from now, how much does it really matter? The Earth's going to be fine and we're going to go extinct. Don't worry about it. Sorry, Paul, you were going to say it. Guys, you're miles ahead of me as usual. He's still thinking about the t-shirts. By the way, I only got through half of the t-shirt. I can keep going. I don't doubt it. It inspires me to do better in my own storytelling, but
Speaker: why Why was ethical marketing and the environment so important to you? um It's just but growing up. You know, my parents are, when we were kids, my mom was part of this group called Wildlife Rescue. So we would take in orphaned animals. My parents were always, you know, big on ocean conservation. They'd been docents at the Monterey Bay Aquarium for going on 30 years. Yeah.
Speaker: My dad's always done a lot with nonprofits, especially in the area of ocean and nature conservation, been on boards of directors for those. And so I just grew up with it. And so it just, it felt really natural. And then when I got into surfing. It's just part of who you are. Yeah. It's part of who I am. And it's my parents are a big part of that. But I also got into surfing. I'm 57. I didn't get into surfing until I was 40.
Speaker: And so I got really into ocean conservation because you really, I mean, often now you go surfing and I'm taking, finding plastic bags and sticking them in my wetsuit so I can bring them into the beach.
Speaker: And so you see that and you're like, my God, you know, we've got to do something about it. And so our little part is, you know, a millimeter of progress, but that all of that combined is is part of why I i took that approach.
Speaker: Okay. have two more kind of big questions. you know how like When people say, you know this is great and all, you know paying like really good wage, like Eric was talking about, paying a really good wage or ah sourcing everything ethically, you know it does raise the price point.
Speaker: And what do you – Eric and I were talking about this before. What about for people who can't afford – that elevated price point and are just surviving, you know just buying the groceries. They're not worried about whether it was using an ecologically friendly fertilizer or not. They're just, I need food. like How do you think about income strata as it relates to these topics?
Speaker: um I mean, that that's not our target market for good or for bad. Honestly, that's not. So how do I, are you suggesting in the context of our business or your business are you just saying in general? Well, I could hear a chorus.
Speaker: ah I could hear ah people say, you know, this sounds so great in the ivory tower when you have plenty of disposable income. But what about when it's when that's not the case? Like, what do we do then? Like,
Speaker: Yeah. What about? Well, no, I get it. I mean, that's where there yeah our second brand value responsibility. So, you know, we, we of all the silkscreeners in Santa Cruz, we picked the one that was giving back to people in need. We created a conservation scholarship program.
Speaker: We always, you know, whenever we would do events in different parts of the state, we would always pick a local nonprofit, usually ocean specific. to donate 10% of our sales to. Right. So there was always a give back component to it.
Speaker: Um, I see, but yeah, I mean, I think about that all the time. Like one of the biggest, it's tough, right. I always worried about with us was, you know, what Eric said it, like if it, if you're going to have a good sustainability story and it's going to take you, you know, 60, 70, 80 hours to build a surfboard, the price is going to be really high and it's not going to be accessible as many people, which is why we have t-shirts. Yeah.
Speaker: Eric and I have that same issue. you know i I make these things and because of the time invested in the materials, the price is high. And then I feel kind of bad that only people with high levels of expendable income can afford it. And so then usually once a year, i try to do some major project with a lot of units of it at a much lower price point, whether it's trays or coasters or I forget all the things I've done now. Every year I try to do like something where it's way more accessible than all my lavish, you know, luxury yeah items. And that's kind of how I square it. But yeah I don't know that that's a great solution. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, it's also go and teach, go into the classroom, it spread the education. Like I think Eric, you teach too, like, and you have like,
Speaker: you know, give back to different parts of the community. Like there's all sorts of things you can do, but to some extent it assuages your guilt and it may not be, you know, it may be greenwashing or making it. Maybe that's what I'm asking. I'm asking'm like, everything's got a positive and a negative. Like I, you know, I don't know. I, I, uh, yeah.
Speaker: Well, there's no, there's no, but we're talking about it, right? Like how many businesses are actually thinking about a lot of this stuff? And I think that's at least a step in the right direction. can i Can I just be a crotchety old man yelling at the children to get off his lawn for a minute?
Speaker: Please. ah Because because i i agree exactly with what you just said, Dave. like Everything has a positive and a negative. And you just kind of You got to do what small thing you can to contribute positively to the world. um And everybody's going to have the ability to criticize the thing that you're not doing.
Speaker: But there's nothing that pisses me off more than like the self-righteous yeah know people on the internet. Like, ah, well... you know If you're not buying sustainable clothing, then you don't give a shit about the environment and you're a piece of shit. It's like, that's $75 for a fucking t-shirt, my guy. yeah like what do you Do you think the fucking cashier at Walmart can afford your $75 t-shirt from Allbirds?
Speaker: like Nobody gives a fucking shit. Just make something that they can put on their back so that they can go to work. and they can make their fucking money and they can feed their children and put them through school. Like at some point, recognize your fucking privilege. Just take a deep breath, look at yourself and realize what the fuck are we even arguing about?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. i mean, we also did a lot of stuff for for a while with used clothing. Like we had to use flannels and denim and we sourced it from a company in Florida and then it had to ship to California, which is whole other ship thing. But then we would get local artists and and then we would soak screen their art on the back and we would pay them for their art.
Speaker: And then you had ah you know used clothing with cool art. like We had a whole story around it. Scale that is really hard because you have to do events or you have to have a store, which we didn't have. Trying to sell that online is really tricky because everything's size different since each piece is unique. But but you know we were starting to do more like that. And if we had ever opened a store, we would have had it have a we would have had like a whole...
Speaker: kind of cool ocean-y thrift section and maybe we still will at some point. Eric, do you see why i was like, I need a fucking Dave in my life? Yeah, dog. think I need a Dave in my life. Who thinks like this? dave I don't know anyone who thinks like you. You also mentioned, Dave, greenwashing.
Speaker: Now we haven't discussed that, you know, in the spotlight. So can you define that and talk about, ah introduce us to the idea of it? Ah, there's probably a really pithy definition of it somewhere. I'm sure there's a single sentence, but I mean, for me, it's basically, um, when you're, you're claiming environmental responsibility or sustainability and you're doing it in a way that, um,
Speaker: may be correct for some small, like you may be telling an authentic story for this one component, but it's directing attention away from the fact that, you know, you're a massive polluter and you're really not doing the right and you're actually contributing to the problem.
Speaker: I'll give I'll give you two, two examples. And what I, I sometimes teach a class on branding and one of them is Sherman William. you know the logo of Sherman Williams? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Paint the earth, cover the earth. Cover the earth. whenre i mean, you know full well they don't give a shit. But then if you go on their website, there's a section for eco-friendly, sustainable paint.
Speaker: Like, come on. If they're out there marketing that, you know full well that they're greenwashing the rest of their business. The other one that I talked about, there used to be ah ah there's a flip-flop maker, you know, and they used to market in all the surf magazines, the toe post, the the piece that goes between your toes was recycled plastic.
Speaker: that was That was what they led with, like recycled plastic toe posts. And I'm thinking, to me, like everybody's, oh, great, I'm going buy this because it's got recycled plastic. That's greenwashing. Like you know it when you see it. and it's And I can tell you all the ways that we've greenwashed as well. I could tell you the story of that shirt without, honestly, without lying, without telling you the parts that are that are negative.
Speaker: I think we're a better brand when I tell them both balance because then people at least feel like they understand they can make their own decisions about what's right and what's wrong. Yeah.
Speaker: By the way, let me tell you one one secret thing about that shirt that you probably never knew. i would well i'd like i mean i i probably i don't know how many people watch the video? Because you kind of have to take the shirt off to do it, but I don't think we should. Oh.
Speaker: Yeah. So inside the collar of that inside the color of that shirt is is, yeah, so there's our logo. It's also on your sleeve, which there's a whole two-minute story on our logo too. But inside that that label, there are two ah sets of, there's a set of two GPS coordinates.
Speaker: Okay. I've never noticed in between the two GP. I may have washed off by now. Cause that shirt's probably 10 years old, but ah in, so in between the two GPS coordinates is a heart.
Speaker: And the two GPS coordinates are the West side of Santa Cruz and the East side of Santa Cruz. So there's two of the best surf spots in the world. There's steamer lane, which is was my spot for a long time and pleasure point.
Speaker: And the East side and the West side of Santa Cruz have always had a really, really big rivalry. Like in the 90s, it would get ugly and there were fights and the Westsiders wouldn't go to the East. There's actually a documentary. I think it's maybe on Netflix or it's online somewhere called The Westsiders. Watch it.
Speaker: It's literally about the West side of Santa Cruz and the surf, the violence kind of surf community that there was there in the ninety s And the east side and the west side still have this rivalry.
Speaker: So we put the east side pleasure point GPS coordinate and the steamer lane GPS coordinate with a heart in between just to say that we're all about the Santa Cruz love.
Speaker: So literally down to the messages in the label of your shirt we think about. Eric, tell me what you're thinking because I see your face. Well, ah what I was actually thinking was I took Paul to pleasure point last night. What's good?
Speaker: ah Oh, my God. But that's that's all. I was trying to figure out how to work that joke in. No, but you've made this face several times while Dave was talking. Almost like...
Speaker: disbelief like this motherfucker oh that's exactly what it is this motherfucker like he's like he's extend that thought like tell us what that really means so the the extension of that thought like um is i i don't Some would argue I run a brand. I don't run a brand, I don't think. I i make objects. i am the brand, which means there is no brand, right? There's a brand. you are the brand and there is a brand. I disagree. I get what you're saying. what Yeah. like So I'm not a brand because if I die, the brand doesn't survive, right? So...
Speaker: so What i hear from Dave, what I respect from Dave, and what I really enjoy is I am hearing all of the, I'm going to say obsessive, but I don't mean that negatively. like It's thoughtful.
Speaker: Thoughtful is a kinder way to phrase it. I would say obsessive. that yeah type like thought that The type of thought that goes into my work applied in an arena that I know nothing about.
Speaker: Surfboards, marketing, t-shirts, all of those things is is above and beyond my pay grade. Dave, I'll give you an example. Again, on this this bench I'm making for a client, ah I had the material pulled for the tail vice and the front vice chop. And I got to the point of ah it was time to to produce those two things. And I rough milled the material and the grain just wasn't working. Like it was going to lean to one side. It wasn't it wasn't quite right for the object. And the object was demanding...
Speaker: that I had something a little bit cleaner. So I went to the lumberyard and I spent another 500 plus dollars on a stick of 16 quarter fucking walnut. And I like begrudgingly did it because it was what the object called for. Now, could I have gotten away with the material that I had? Absolutely. Because I don't think the client would have noticed or cared, but I cared that the object was right. And it felt, um,
Speaker: it felt like I did the thing as honestly as possible to make the best object that I could in the time I was making it. So could you, sorry, could you have, can you use the piece that you couldn't use for something else?
Speaker: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in the stacks. I'll figure out something to It's a very interesting piece, but it wasn't right for that particular application. Yeah. And so it's one of those situations where it's like the details matter so much so that I had to take another three quarters of a day, go spend money on more material so that the grain aligned more correctly so that the object felt more balanced. I love that to me feels similar to the small details of like, how do we make the t-shirt represent this idea that it is not about East versus West. It's about Santa Cruz as a whole. We all, we have a common good in mind, yeah the preservation of the surfing culture that we've created. And we can, we can have like little morsels of that in the everyday accessible objects that we have for the, for the public.
Speaker: It's fun too, because I get to tell these cool stories when we're selling them. Sure. People, yeah you've seen it Paul. You were at our booth at the Capitol Art and Wine Festival one year and people come in and we get to tell them these cool stories and people just absolutely love it. But you guys are insanely creative in a way that I could never be. Maybe someday I could learn some of it, but like, I don't have the skills that you have and you put that creativity into what you do every day with your woodworking.
Speaker: And I don't have the same outlet. So my outlet is trying to figure out how to do marketing and tell a cool story. And I want to sweat the details because my partner is sweating every single tiny detail, just like you guys do.
Speaker: So my contribution was sweating the details that were, you know, in the domains that I understood. That's a good partnership, man. Like it is right as somebody who is I've worked in a bunch of cabinet shops. I've I've been in places where um the the owner, the designers, they treat the work of the craftsperson as secondary to their work, which fucking sucks. Yeah, i can imagine. i've also worked in and i've worked in cabinet shops where they understand that what they have created is an idea is a thought is a hope is a dream for a client and
Speaker: all of that falls by the wayside if the object isn't crafted with love and attention Yeah. Artisanship. Those, those are the people that are worth working for and with and staying with long-term because you develop that mutual that like what you're contributing, and what I'm contributing to this client's vision is equally important.
Speaker: Yeah. And that's why we worked. I also like, I'm his biggest fan. Like I think Martijn's one of the greatest woodworkers in the world. And I think he makes the best surf, the most beautiful surfboards in the world. And he's, he's absolutely, he's like you guys. I mean, I don't know your work as much, obviously, but I see some of it, I think.
Speaker: And I know Paul's work, but like, it's really easy to do storytelling when you've got an ah incredible product. um But yeah, and we need a third person now because I need a third person who can now scale the brand because that's,
Speaker: I'm not, I haven't figured that out yet. And I've got how to scale the brand. Yeah. I mean, yeah my goal was to be like, you know, like the next Patagonia. um And I just never, I was never willing to, to stop my day job and, you know, put the family at risk going to do the thing that I thought I was most passionate about.
Speaker: And so it allowed me to do, it allows me to scratch that itch and do the fun Ventana marketing thing. while I pay the bills with my day job, which actually is pretty fun too. Microsoft's a pretty cool place to work. Patagonia is an interesting yeah ah thought. like so i don't i i know Obviously, I know of them. i i know I'm familiar with the message that they put out into the wider world. but you know like I can walk into an REI and pick up Patagonia products.
Speaker: How sustainable is their polyester puff jacket? It's not very, I mean, so Patagonia is probably the best of the best. They give back a ton money. Like they, they, the way Yvon Chouinard is now like basically given away the the company and in a really interesting way. Like they have a better story than anybody. And I think they're authentic about where they, you know, they're not perfect.
Speaker: But they do greenwashing too, right? Like they have their whole use program where you can resell your products on their website and they'll do repairs. And they have a lot of the Patagonian stores will regular sessions where you can bring in clothing and they'll repair it.
Speaker: But to some extent that's greenwashing because they lead with that sometimes when it's actually virgin polyester material that's highly likely almost all the materials made overseas and usually in China. So, yeah, I mean... well well so So the flip side of that is what's that fucking goose down company?
Speaker: Canada Goose or something like that? Yeah. yeahp Yeah. Right. And so they take a bunch of shit on the Internet, right? Because everybody's like, what do you mean you're using fucking goose feathers? Isn't that animal torture?
Speaker: so if you do a thing that like i don't know they're also very expensive i don't know how many hundreds or thousands of dollars they cost but like if you do a thing that's like traditional we know that these fucking feathers will keep you warm in the cold ass canadian winter then you're an animal butcher but if you do it out of polyester and it's reasonably affordable yeah there's no windings yeah it's it's a rock and a hard place Well, that's how it feels with the internet as a chorus. There's just no winning. There's going to be a naysayer no matter what path you choose. So I guess you just have to make your peace with yourself at the end of the day that you're okay with how you do it. Well, you also have to listen y'all have to listen did you you also have to listen to the
Speaker: like There are times when the naysayer is spot on. yeah And so you have to assess it. Are are you going to engage? lot of times it's not worth engaging. It just makes it worse.
Speaker: And ah sometimes you go, wow, I never thought about it that way. They're absolutely right. I'm not going to do that anymore. That has happened to me before. Like we said in the beginning, markets are conversations and you should be at least hearing it and participating where it makes sense.
Speaker: This motherfucker. And that's how you wrap up a fucking episode. Well, no, Eric, I want to the last thing to wrap up is Dave. I'd like you to wrap up this episode.
Speaker: Where, where do we go from here? Like what, what like we always kind of lead with a solution. You know, like when we have on our resident psychologist, Sherry, you know, we talk about whether it's ADHD or personality traits, and we talk about the difficulties in the ins and outs all episode. We dissect the problem. And I feel like we've done that here. We've dissected the problem. We've talked about the ins and outs, the greenwashing, the balance. like You know, you can't always please everyone, but you got, you know, and the importance of storytelling. And, but like, where do we like,
Speaker: what who What are the thoughts that you could leave us with that you think are most important that just kind of rattle around in our brain as we walk away from this episode? I have absolutely no idea. Like I had an answer to almost everything and I really don't have a good answer to this one. I really don't. I mean, that's my don't lie. um i think having the conversation and thinking about it and being cognizant of what your impact is and paying attention at least some of the time and trying to make some decisions that you think are responsible based on your values. And I know some people's values are very different than mine, but I don't know what else we can do at this point. Like, yeah,
Speaker: All the things that we talked about, at least at least we're talking about them, but I don't really have a good answer where we as a collective humanity go from here. I know what I do and I know where I want to go, but I don't know. And Eric, you see, I'm okay with that answer because this podcast is not always about having an answer, but at least it gets us thinking about the right question. That's right. That is what I want to end on. I agree. I agree. I love that. great can i Can I put one addendum on that? Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: As long as you are thinking, like what you just said, Dave, as long as you're thinking and contending with the issues, you're probably making better decisions than the majority of people producing things. As long as your guiding star is not profit, you're probably okay.
Speaker: Interesting. Probably so. I think... I think the hard part is, is that what's right. Like I still don't know half the time. Like i yeah I can, like the t-shirt thing. We go like, i first, yes, it's great for this, but then it's plastisol. And then it's cool for this, but it's not. And like I, half the time, 90% of the time, I don't even know what's right.
Speaker: But at least, at at least we're thinking about it. But you guys are amazing. That was incredibly fun. And I hope that I get to be like your psychology friend and come back at some point. We could talk about that too because I have ADHD and I have a yeah bipolar disorder also. So like I could talk about that stuff until I'm blue in the face.
Speaker: Dave, we'd love to have you on again. That was a great one, Dave. Thank you, buddy. You're the best. Thank you, guys. That was so fun. See you all. See you in the after show. If you want to join us in the after show, subscribe to our Patreon and also to see the video feed so you can see Dave's awesome t-shirt. So you can see Paul's sexy body. Okay, bye.
