Transcript
Jack: So. I was standing there looking at this piece of artwork and I thought to myself, This is the second worst piece of artwork I've ever seen in my entire fucking life. Do you mean to tell me in real life that there is a Thomas Kinkade painting called NASCAR? Thunder?
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I guarantee it's going to be a spicy one tonight, folks, because. We are back. This is woodworking is bullshit. Your favorite podcast that likes to tear shit up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: in the Pursuit. of honesty and authenticity. I don't care about your feelings. I care about the truth. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by a day, truth sayer by a night. And I got my boy in the chair, Eric Curtis, furniture maker.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and content creator.
Bad Erik: Mayamo NASCAR thunder, bitches. That is the only way I will be addressed for the rest of this podcast.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And unless you're deaf, you haven't.
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You haven't had any trouble noticing the sweet sounding pipes. of our favorite learning learning designer. and Homesteader. an art professor.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jack Thomas.
Jack: Hey guys, happy to be here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, my God.
Bad Erik: Those pipes.
Jack: Mmm.
Bad Erik: Those pipes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So to.
Bad Erik: Also, Paul, don't don't don't jump on our deaf listeners like that right off the jump, man. Come on. Why you got to shit on those guys?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. I guess they wouldn't be listening to a podcast oh unless it's transcribed.
Bad Erik: Ha ha.
Jack: Duck, duck. You just said deaf listeners.
Bad Erik: I don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I said, unless you're deaf, you you wouldn't notice.
Jack: Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Did I say listeners? Oh, anyway. Sorry. Apologies. um Today, we decided to take on... A rather... I'd say unusual topic.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that is. Why making? bad art. might be valuable. And you say. Why are we talking about this? Who the hell wants to make bad art? But today, I think there's quite a few reasons.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that we're gonna cover. why it could help you. It could help all of us. We spend so much time learning. how to do things correctly. We take classes. This is how you want to do this. This is how you want to do that. You don't want to do that. You'll screw it up. You'll make a mistake. Oh, God forbid. you know and We... really don't.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In any organized way. talk about our failures or what not to do or why that is such a learning opportunity. So that's our topic today. And to start it off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jack. is going to get the ball rolling.
Jack: Okay, so... When I was still... Teaching college. I assigned one particular assignment. to all of my classes, whether they were Intro. you know, upper level, whatever.
Jack: And that assignment was the bad art assignment. I've actually assigned it to a couple of y 'all's listeners and then followed up and met with them about it afterwards. And they had the same reactions as. my college students which is to say Like just. mind absolutely being blown sometimes you know I still have people call me like half a decade later and they're like dog doggy dog I'm still learning things from that assignment So.
Jack: The Bad Art Assignment. is this. You Imagine. The worst. fucking piece of art that you could possibly make, right? The worst piece of art you could possibly make.
Jack: you You write down what it looks like. You write down why you think it's bad. And then... You actually go and make that piece of art.
Jack: You make that thing. Now, half of the assignment is like. discussing afterwards but we'll i think we're going to get into that but but basically when i when i ask people to make the worst artwork they can imagine I'm not asking them to identify like universal badness. I'm not even sure that that exists, honestly. And we might get into that later. What I'm asking people to do is to like.
Jack: Locate their own disgust. What do you think makes a truly bad piece of art?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And why? Why is locating that? Origin of disgust valuable, Jack.
Jack: There are so many reasons. You can't know what you truly like. what you truly love. Until you know what you truly hate. That's one of them.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: okay
Jack: It also says a lot about you as a person. what you dislike and it says a lot about your cultural upbringing but it also says a lot about your own fears about your own shortcomings and honestly i think if you were to talk to someone for long enough which we might get into tonight if you were to talk to someone for long enough about the artwork they hate the most after a while they wouldn't even be talking about the artwork they would actually be talking about themselves in some way, and it might make them uncomfortable.
Jack: It gets that deep. It really does.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh well Let's start it.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're going to start it up. We're just going to start. We're going to talk about what we hate and why. Eric.
Bad Erik: Well... The first thing I want to know is you you use the word disgust. And I know you well enough to know that that's an intentional choice.
Jack: It is.
Bad Erik: So. When you say disgust, do you mean? and in i I think I know the answer, but. Do you mean Like that visceral. repulsive disgust do you mean disgust of like How could this possibly be considered good work?
Bad Erik: ah like like a visceral angry. uh discuss like what define disgust a little bit more for me
Jack: m that's That's a good question. I think yes to both of those things. and But the important thing to point out is. It's not just artwork where you're like, man, that sucks. And you move on. It's artwork where you're like, so disgusted by it. That you tell other people how much it sucks. You're just like.
Jack: You're like, I can't, not only can I not believe that people consider this good, that anyone considers this good, but. I can't believe that someone actually put the time into making this and that other people consume it willingly.
Jack: It makes you mad. You have a gut reaction.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No!
Jack: Your blood, like it makes your blood boil, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh my god, I can't wait.
Jack: like
Bad Erik: so So it's a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
Bad Erik: It's a both end of like, it makes me angry that people are doing this and calling it art, but it also could be like a biological, like piss Christ. You know?
Jack: It could... It could be like Piss Christ, but I would say that pitt with Piss Christ, like... There's the biological.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What's Piss Christ?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm Googling Piss Christ.
Jack: just Just look it up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What the fuck's Piss Christ?
Bad Erik: It's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, it's Piss Christ.
Jack: peace
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, I'll find it.
Bad Erik: Jack, i'll let you I'll let you hit it as the art.
Jack: Ah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye. No, no, no, just, no, no, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, okay, fine.
Bad Erik: Our professor.
Jack: Okay. So, so piss.
Bad Erik: Explain it to the listeners, please.
Jack: Yeah, okay, okay, so so... Piss Christ is a a photograph, a ah cybochrome or kybochrome photograph that was ah created by ah Andre Serrano.
Jack: And. ah it is ah it It came out the same year I did, 1987. And it's a photograph that depicts a small plastic... crucifix that is submerged in a glass tank.
Jack: of the artist's own piss.
Bad Erik: Piss Christ.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I.
Jack: Piss Christ.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i just I just Googled it and found it. Got it.
Bad Erik: Yeah, yeah.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Got it.
Jack: So for some people, for some people, this disgust, it might be like a biological or body horror kind of thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jack: But what I'm really referring to. is art that you just you fucking hate it because you're like what the what no no one can possibly like this i am so mad at this
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Okay.
Jack: and what that says about you as a person.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Bad Erik: Alright. So ah i'll I'll step up to the ledge first. um
Bad Erik: Performance art.
Jack: o
Bad Erik: Pisses me off. I really I was. Like... You, you. I've seen a couple of things in prison. And that's not to say like we're speaking in in. generalities right like we have to kind of take a bold stance because this is a podcast so i'm just going to say performance art in general is dog shit it doesn't make any fucking sense you are
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: bastardizing the work of talented actors writers performers singers etc and minimizing it to. The the narcissism of I have an idea that I'm going to get down on all fours and just be a table.
Bad Erik: And then I am, and it's supposed to make you feel a thing. It's supposed to transcend you into another space or.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh it makes you feel a thing.
Bad Erik: or or Or I'm going to roll around and paint on ah on a large canvas and then people are going to stand up and applaud for me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It makes you angry.
Jack: Oh yeah, it does.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Jack: Oh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I hate that.
Jack: Oh.
Bad Erik: Or I'm going to pull the the plug out of the bottom bucket of sand and watch the tower fall over. It's bullshit like that, right? like it's it's Obviously, it's deconstructing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I can't
Bad Erik: what is art and it's making a statement about how stupid consumers of art are in the the fucking I don't know the voyeurism of it all, but. But at the same time, like.
Bad Erik: Those people are still getting paid real fucking dollars for that dog shit. And I'm out here like I got a mortgage to pay and I'm trying to put out. actual good work into the universe. So go fuck yourself.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now, how Jack, do we dive into Eric's psyche?
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What underlies that now? Or do one of us go?
Jack: I... Ah. I don't know. i I have some questions. I have some questions.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, let's go.
Jack: I i i think we're all gonna...
Bad Erik: Please, I'm an open book.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's dive.
Jack: All right. I think we're all going to have some questions for each other.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's dive
Jack: And I just got to say, God, man, if any of my former colleagues are listening, I'm sorry in advance because I'm going to if I wasn't kicked out of academia before, I definitely will be after this episode.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: um Okay. ah I'm going to withhold my own judgment on on performance or anything like that. But here are my questions. so Do you hate it because it feels pretentious?
Jack: Or do you hate it because you feel like there's no skill involved? or like Like it's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or.
Jack: Not really.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You see these motherfuckers getting paid.
Jack: ah Yeah. Or that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: for For pretending.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: While you have to put in this incredible sweat equity and make less money.
Jack: Or do you feel...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And you're jealous.
Jack: like or does does it does it just feel like anybody could do it like there's no skill involved or
Bad Erik: No, it doesn't feel like anybody could do it. Um, I think. Yep. It probably is. uh i mean certainly it's a little bit of jealousy of like how how did you just get how did you get a fucking grant like a hundred thousand dollar art residency grant
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
Bad Erik: to to fucking jump off a trampoline and hit the highest point on a canvas with a paintbrush that you possibly fucking could like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: laughter laughter
Bad Erik: Go sit on a dick. Like, what are we doing? You know? ah So I think there's definitely a little bit of that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: on a ti
Bad Erik: uh like hey some people like sitting on a dick i'm not trying to yuck anybody's yum you know but still um so So I think there is that component of it. um And listen, I love ideas. Ideas. are a beautiful thing. and and I never want to squash. the the creation of new ideas. And some of these things are new ideas. And some of these things are really wonderful ideas, but then to articulate them to an audience.
Bad Erik: Um, with such Little. thought into how to relay that message. such little thought into the craft, as it were.
Bad Erik: It's... It's coming up with a... with a perfect story. And then never bothering to edit. the text you just like well this is the first thing i wrote down and so it's the truest form of it go fuck yourself it's just not good writing like you just the first thing you did is not the best iteration of that thing And yes, it definitely feels elitist.
Bad Erik: Like if I went to art school, I could. fucking jump on a trampoline and slap my dick on a canvas and people will give me $10 ,000 for it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: ah i mean but i don' I don't mean to split hairs, but I think people would pay you to do that right now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah ah ah
Bad Erik: It's the spiciest first 12 minutes of an episode I think we ever had.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, Jesus. This is usually an hour in.
Jack: That's saying a lot. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What the fuck are we going to be at like 45 minutes from now?
Jack: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh God.
Jack: You know what?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, well.
Jack: Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I feel it I've... i
Bad Erik: That's right. That's right.
Jack: Okay, I have one more question, Eric.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: Does your opinion change? depending on whether or not there is a Physical. uh object that is left over at the end of the performance.
Bad Erik: o That's a good question. I would say the... The - The... Pieces that I am thinking of specifically. that I can pull to mind. I don't know for certain, but I imagine those pieces are then left in place post -performance for a period of time as an installation.
Bad Erik: And. That. does not alter how I feel about those things at all because the But.
Bad Erik: I think the thing that that irks me about it is you are taking... These folks are taking... uh Exercises. Practice pieces and putting.
Bad Erik: the... the creation, the act of creation on display rather than the object that is created. And that then turns... The thing. inward and say, look how amazing I am.
Bad Erik: for my ability to create. rather than thinking about. the object as a sanctified thing in and of itself. You are not special. The object is what matters. The outcome is what matters. But no, no, no. Look at me.
Bad Erik: I can do X. Aren't I so wonderful?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is it, is it I can do X or the process of doing X is wonderful?
Bad Erik: No, it's I can do X is wonderful.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't know
Bad Erik: Because if, because, because Paul. I don't know how to tell you this, buddy. If you pulled... a plug out of a bucket full of sand and let a tower fall over nobody gives a fuck but That guy does it.
Bad Erik: Because he did it. It now has inherent cultural value because he has a name, because he has.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Bad Erik: collectors, etc, etc.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but Let's go. a level deeper. Eric, what does this say about your value system? well Each of these is speaking to an underlying value that you have.
Bad Erik: Oh, sure. I know exactly what it says about my value system.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What are they? What are they?
Bad Erik: It's I feel like a dirtbag when I have to sell my work. it's It's the act of performance. of let me convince you why I am important and therefore the value of the thing that I made goes up. Whereas somebody else who is just as good, if not better than me.
Bad Erik: can make an object and they can't sell it. because they don't have that skill set, because they don't have a following, because they didn't have a Netflix show, whatever the fuck it is. But it's the thing of... If I convince you that I'm important, the value of the thing that I made is higher.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and So perceive perceived value.
Bad Erik: And so, so Yeah. And so the thing. is still, at the end of the day, not. the valuable thing. Like you're not buying the object, you're buying the artist, which is the thing we've talked about on this podcast in the past.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that bothers you?
Bad Erik: Yeah, it's... It's irksome as a person who cares about the object i listen don't get me wrong i am grateful that as I get better.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Bad Erik: And and. my My reach in my field grows that I am more and more able to pay my mortgage. I understand I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth, right? But again, this is a podcast. We're trying to take a stand and have a conversation point. but Still, ultimately, in my soul, I believe that the object is an important thing in the the making of the most. The striving to make the most perfect thing that you can is a valuable.
Bad Erik: way to spend your time in your life and by It being about me. It.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Bad Erik: it shifts the. the value to, well, Eric Curtis made it. So that's cool.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Got it. I feel like there's also something here about charlatans. like
Bad Erik: Oh.
Jack: m
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: People who. pretend to be something maybe they're not and there's a you seem to have a lit
Bad Erik: well We have a proud history of snake oil salesmen in this country, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, you you seem to have like an underlying disgust. of that. based on what I'm hearing.
Bad Erik: Yes. And well, I think, okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Bad Erik: I think it's about. intention. You can. If your aim is to sell the object for the highest possible value you're going to focus on different things than if your aim is to make the best possible object. And then eventually it will sell for a high value.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: To you, one is noble and... and one is not
Bad Erik: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly the right way to phrase it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: Does it also feel...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, and that's...
Jack: Sorry, go ahead.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, that's good. Yeah.
Jack: Does it also feel to you like... Like something that is part of a history or a lineage. of greater tradition. carries more value and more authenticity and more validity. and is therefore more inherently good than something that has a less long lineage or tradition.
Bad Erik: No, i don't I don't think tradition is a huge part of it. It's. Um, I... I think more so the tradition is a nice component. What what tradition does.
Bad Erik: is similarly to what I'm trying to express. is it asks people to remove the self and embrace the whole. right embrace community and embrace lineage embrace culture And that's that's good.
Bad Erik: um That can obviously be bastardized and and taken to an unhealthy extent like anything else can. But but I think on the whole, that's good. But I think where I push back against it is.
Bad Erik: Um, the narcissism of the belief that because I made it, it's good. Because I made it, it's special. And that can happen within tradition too. you know I am the best goddamn.
Bad Erik: Dove Taylor, this side of the Mississippi. all right, go fuck yourself. Like there's some guy down in Mississippi that you've never heard of who is better than you. He just doesn't tell everybody that he's the best.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and and Another thing you're tapping into is the distaste for narcissism.
Jack: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: It's, i listen, ironic, I know. You know, it's pot kettle, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know yeah i don't you're not a narcissist. I don't think you're a narcissist at all.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: You're... No, you're, dude, you're not a narcissist. I i do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're just a good old fashioned dick.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
Bad Erik: As three Northeasterners, you know it, baby.
Jack: ah Aye.
Bad Erik: Come on now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm just kidding. No, you're not that, Eric.
Bad Erik: ah that is That is our tradition.
Jack: I...
Bad Erik: That's our lineage. Being a dick.
Jack: You know. Eric, I also, ah and man, don't. I don't know. I was about to say, i don't take this the wrong way, but i don't I don't think you will. I think that this is. pretty constantly on your mind maybe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I hope he does.
Jack: please No, please take it the right way. like Do you do you think that part of the reason you hate performance art so much might be like. You know, you're you're you've been feeling for a while now this like inherent friction of being online. Right. Like.
Jack: to be to be in this space of performance.
Bad Erik: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Jack: And you you don't you don't always like it. There are at least certain components of it that you very much don't like. somebody who does performance art They, they are. taking their process outside the studio and they're very comfortable inhabiting that performance, that online -ness, so to speak. And there is often no like a beautiful, sacred, well -crafted object at the end. They are crushing it.
Jack: at being the living human equivalent of a YouTuber without a camera. And they're fucking loving it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, Jack.
Bad Erik: That. That's an interesting question.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Bad Erik: so As you are articulating that. Um, And that's that's a totally fair critique, by the way. I recognize that. I am.
Bad Erik: uncomfortable for the most part taking my creative process and just like putting it out uncut for the world. um But ah a parallel, and this this may not be correct, but I i feel like it's a pretty good parallel.
Bad Erik: would be a comedian who does a lot of crowd work. right so you have you have comedians they do their stand -up bit they write it they perform it they gauge reactions they they they figure out their cadence they figure out where a joke lands the timing etc etc that's editing right that's that's coming up with a final product which is.
Bad Erik: you know, in the olden days, a 60 minute special. Like you hit that fucking 60 minutes and it's beautiful and it's good. And then there are comedians who do a lot of crowd work. And they've become big on Instagram and TikTok. And and you can see a person.
Bad Erik: who is really fucking good at crowd work and not everybody has that skill and they've refined that skill over time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
Bad Erik: And now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's impressive.
Bad Erik: And now, granted. If you see clips on the internet, you're seeing the best. 5 % of their crowd work. Right. But you go to ah a comedy show and you watch this person work the crowd. And like, there might be a couple of rough cut gems here and there. And overall you walk out like, ah, it was a pretty good show, but like there weren't, there weren't like the viral videos, but that's still a person who is.
Bad Erik: Who is... actively trying to get better at a specific thing. Versus. insult comedians where you're just like ah, you're just kind of a dick on stage. You know, like your whole thing is like, you look stupid.
Bad Erik: That's not. That's not funny. you know Maybe to some people it's funny, but ah you have to you have to engage back and forth with the audience.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So before we go on to a ah different answer, let's just one more thing, Eric, about performance art. ah The famous, the most famous performance artist, I think.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: maybe in the world. I don't know, Jack, you tell me. Marina. ah abramovvich Is that how you say that?
Bad Erik: This. The Stare.
Jack: Abramovic, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Abramovic?
Jack: Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, she's done a couple things at... the Museum of Modern Art, one time, I guess in the 70s, she left 72 objects on a table for the public to use on her passively.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Okay. And then another one more recently, 2010. where she sat silently across from thousands and thousands of visitors.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what do you what do you How do you feel about that?
Bad Erik: I don't. Want to. negate everything I just said. i kind I kind of like the stare. I think it's a really interesting.
Bad Erik: that she is inviting people into the... the performance. And... You... you can sit there and engage with it as much as you want Now, I'm not 100%. I'm not saying it's brilliant. I'm not saying I love it. It's the best thing ever. but there is something about inviting somebody in to be a part of the act of creating.
Bad Erik: that requires vulnerability on. both people's ends. And it's not just look how amazing I am for thinking about the fact that I could look at people.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see I see where your line is.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: You know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm starting to understand.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, no, that makes it's all consistent. Honestly, Eric, you're not contradicting yourself at all to me. You just those have different underlying values to you. And I think it's pretty clear what they are.
Jack: I think so too. I mean, And I... Eric, I i see... i see that I see this kind of ah reaction in a lot of people that hate performance art, honestly. and and ah this is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, but like.
Jack: A lot of people feel like performance art where there's no audience interactivity is really just people who ah like. We're theater kids, but sucked at theater.
Bad Erik: Yeah, that's kind of it, man, you know?
Jack: Okay. You know, and like. Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Who's next? Me or you, Jack?
Jack: I think you should go.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and Okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. What? What do I hate? ah This is recent. ah um You know, yeah. Ugh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know those... Stories in the news you've been seeing lately. where... A painting of a giant red square sells for $55 million. dollars Often by Mark Rothko.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: uh one of the early abstract expressionists Um, 55 million, 60 million, a square with a yellow line under it. Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. And I used to, when I first was kind of getting into art. I'd say like, like painted art. I would say like five to. 10 years ago i was doing a lot of documentaries on these people. Like there's a really good documentary about Mark Rothko and his life and his. um tragic demise.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And ah because I was so. perplexed My science mind could not understand how so many people were oohing and aahing and fawning and saying how moved they were. over a black square on a canvas.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They said you could see the cosmos. You could see the meaning of life in there. I'm looking at it and I see a. black fucking square.
Bad Erik: You didn't take enough LSD, brother.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm not seeing. And I'm so confused by all of it. And I'm thinking back then, I'm thinking. Is it me? Like, am I, I must be missing something.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because. It's being sold for $55 million. And I must be just a fucking idiot. i don't I don't get it. I don't know. And I just kind of gave it the benefit of the doubt that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe I'm not open -minded enough. Maybe my analytical brain is just too fucking square to really understand, but art people will get it. Maybe an art person could explain it to me. So I kind of parked it. And a lot of people fall in that camp, like Jackson Pollock. I don't really get it. I get i get that it's like splatter paint art, and it's more about the kineticness of how he made it. And the paint is a... is almost like a symbolic of whatever the movements must have been, almost like ah of like ah like a fingerprint of what what physical flailing flew the flung the paint right in that direction. so I get it, and I get it was new. It was like a pioneer. like No one had ever thought in that dimension about art before, and you always get a bonus when you're the pioneer. The first always gets...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A premium price tag, premium notoriety, like fine. But still, I'm confused. And Michelle Basquiat, did I say that right, Jack?
Jack: Basquiat.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Best yet.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Again, I get it. Um. Very confused, you know, and they almost all have tragedies associated with them. So then my scientist mind is like, do you have to have a tragic story for this to be worth a lot? And is that why people like it? Because it's gone and it'ss it's associated with tragedy. Anyway.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I park it and I assume I'm the fucking idiot. And years go by. and we meet our friend Jeff Hine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff is... Such a fucking phenomenal painter. Right. He's been on the podcast twice. If you haven't heard his episodes. Go listen to them.
Jack: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff. is the man. And I have the utmost respect for Jeff. He... time and time again shows what he's capable of he teaches at his atelier he he keeps students for five to i think it's between five to ten years for them to learn like he is old school mastery.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Kind of shit. And I thought, who's better to ask? then Jeff. And I'm like, Jeff, I don't get it. These big... this big colored squares. I just don't get it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: He's like, there's nothing to get. it's an It's a sham. It's the emperor's new clothes. There's nothing there to get. you're you You're not the problem. Jeff, forgive me if I...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Bad Erik: Jack, Jack, this is still primarily an audio format. I'm going to need you to. ah
Jack: Oh I'm sorry.
Bad Erik: ah to To make audible noises with that face.
Jack: Oh my god. WHA -
Jack: Okay, does that do it? Was that good?
Bad Erik: Nailed it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you.
Bad Erik: Nailed it.
Jack: Okay, sweet.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. And so Jeff is being like.
Jack: okay
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This - this is not - This is not necessarily great art. And you're not the idiot. I started to get angry. so now because Why didn't I trust myself?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why did I need Jeff to convince me that my read was good enough? And so now when I see things in the news, oh, another Rothko sold for $20 gajillion million. dollars I get a little bit pissed off.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like this. Fuck you. money laundering in modern contemporary art is gross. And you know what I'm – but digging to your question, Jack, about depths, like digging in, what does that disgust actually mean?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm disgusted at my goal ability.
Jack: o
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why? Couldn't I have had? The fortitude. to see it for what it is without Jeff. giving me the permission to trust my instincts.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I'm angry. that I didn't trust myself. And the gullibility.
Jack: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: makes me disgusted with myself and with it. that's That's my deeper level assessment.
Bad Erik: It's interesting that you have that. That level of anger and disgust. When you. Didn't lose any money on it You know, like there was no there were no stakes to be lost on it. If you had like bought a Rothko and Jeff was like, yeah, that's fucking dog shit. You know, like then you'd be like, wait a second. What?
Bad Erik: But. But. I mean listen. I don't know everything about science. If I have a science question. you're probably the first person that I'm going to call and be like, does this sound?
Bad Erik: Like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But Eric...
Bad Erik: Like good science?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It... But imagine, but you had a hunch that it was just. It was just kind of BS. You had a hunch.
Bad Erik: that's that's that's fair, but to me, that also reads as you being an open person. you're You're willing to explore.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because I've been wrong before. I have.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, and I've been burned. I thought I knew what was going on so many times in my past, and I was. It turned out I was a total fucking fool. So I tend to not. Yeah, I... There's something that holds me back now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: until i can taste you know stress test an idea
Bad Erik: until Until you can get the opinion of somebody who whose judgment you value and think is good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Bad Erik: i think I think that's a good thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Jeff. I guess, but I'm angry at the same time. I'm like these motherfuckers sold me on the same fucking boat. you know across the pacific god damn you know like for years i'm like is this good art maybe it is maybe i did to think more about it what does the black represent it represents nothing it's a fucking black square
Bad Erik: well, what is it when ro Rothko was what, like... 50s, right? 50s, 60s.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Not even now.
Jack: Yeah. Well, let me let me.
Bad Erik: what's up
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go ahead Jack.
Jack: I'm sorry. go now go go ahead Go ahead, Eric.
Bad Erik: Well, I was just trying to put it, I was i was thinking about the context of that particular movement, but we can come back around to that.
Jack: I want to see where you're going with this.
Bad Erik: Jack, please ask your question.
Jack: So... ah my My question is this. Well... First, a suggestion. Anytime you're going to call Jeff. Also call me after you call Jeff. Like. Like, ah because like.
Jack: i love I love me some Jeff. like jeff jeff has Jeff has massively grown on me from from hearing him on the podcast. And he's one of the most like... technically skill just I mean like so motherfucking talented people that I could.
Jack: possibly imagine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jack: Insane.
Bad Erik: But you can you can disagree with him.
Jack: insane
Bad Erik: He's he's a big boy.
Jack: no no i know i know i know but we're we're all in agreement about about how technically skilled he is you know and and also
Bad Erik: Yeah. yeah
Bad Erik: Sure.
Jack: This opinion is is Jeff's opinion. And. and i'm on the I'm on the opposite. End of this. I'm a Rothko fan.
Bad Erik: oh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Do tell, Jack.
Jack: Now, this is not to say, again. This is completely subjective. i I almost I'm not even sure I believe in objectively bad art. I mean, maybe I do, but I'm like, that's bad. And it is because I say so.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Tell me.
Jack: But here's here's here's my take.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Tell me. Please.
Jack: And on specifically why you think. Rothko is bad. Why you feel Rothko is bad.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Please.
Jack: So Rothko's really hot right now on TikTok. I don't know if you guys, like he's, I'm not even on TikTok and I know this, but like he's very, very popular with the Gen Z and the and the Gen Alpha kids. And the reason that he's so popular.
Jack: is because they're... At least i i the way I read it. is that there is no specific entry point. It's actually the opposite of marketing. So to me, your analytical mind.
Jack: Hates the Rothko. Because the entry point. Doesn't work for your science brain. It's not met.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What do you mean by entry point?
Jack: It's not that that there isn't one. There is no measurable entry point. There is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't know what entry point means.
Jack: ah for For understanding, for understanding it. and the fact that like there there's there's nothing to understand and there's everything to understand.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, okay.
Jack: So Rothko was, made let let me have it. Let me have it. Don't make that face at me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh! Jack!
Jack: I know that's such an art professor thing to say.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, keep going, keep going. Keep going.
Jack: I know it's such an art, but but here hear me out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Keep going. Yep. Please. yeah Yep.
Jack: Hear me out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Jack: So... So Rothko is making this work. In an historical moment, where he feels
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: m
Jack: kind of the way that we feel in a sense that there's like maybe a looming existential crisis or an arrived existential crisis that is related to industrialization manufacturing a lack of attention a lack of existential depth people are losing touch with their sense of awe their sense of wonder in the world.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm hmm.
Jack: And he makes these paintings in part.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm hmm.
Jack: to reintroduce and explore and create these opportunities to connect with what he deems to be the sublime. Right. I think that Jeff does that in some of his own work as well. I think a lot of artists do, and this is just Rothko's way of doing that thing. And so when I stand in front of a Rothko.
Jack: I imagine. A sublime sunset. That I saw this one time emerging out of like a dark. crack or a chasm or something. And it takes me back to this completely transported experience. And you can't sell that to me. There's no brand that can give me that. Now, I'm never going to buy a Rothko. And Rothko probably didn't know that people would be buying his work for $55 million dollars in the future and that he'd be popular on some little BS platform called TikTok, right?
Jack: But this is the entry point. the sublime. There's everything to understand and there's nothing to understand.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That was beautiful, and I don't buy a minute of it.
Jack: Ha ha!
Bad Erik: I was going to say. this this feels This feels a little bit like somebody trying to explain the beauty of the comedy in Beavis and Butthead to me.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Like it's, you know, like there's there's nothing to understand.
Jack: Ha!
Jack: And this is exactly why we're having this conversation.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jack. Jack. Jack. you're What I will say that is true. Your eloquence and your word salad makes me want to buy one.
Bad Erik: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That I will tell you.
Jack: Aww.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you are You have such a gift for - for explaining i mean even though the premise is totally Like, I don't buy it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see what you're saying. Sorry.
Bad Erik: Well, well
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What I should say, I see what you mean.
Jack: No, no.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You can, because it's so nondescript, this is my scientific. version of what you said because it doesn't tell you what to see. You can see anything.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it It's, it, it. I mean, it has some suggestions, but you're filling in the gaps with your own memories, your own. you know, uh You said I see a sunset.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's your own imagination filling in the gaps. So by allowing, you know, painting something and allowing the viewer to fill in the gaps, it's even more powerful than the painting itself because nothing is better than your own imagination. We know that, right? Before a date.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You have the all the anticipation of the world. She's going to be so hot. He's going to be amazing. you know Your imagination is incredible. It fills in every gap because you don't have information about that person. Or let's say you're one date in.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And you're like so fucking head over heels. And your your little your little brain fills in every gap with the most. tidy little details and then you get to know them and sure they can be pretty great but it's not as good as your imagination nine times out of ten and that's what i see these artists doing is they're sort of Using your own imagination as a tool to fill in.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: there. they're sloppy, shit -ass squares.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that have actually no true value. I feel like it's a con. using the human brain as a machine.
Bad Erik: Ironically, is that not exactly what was happening in the the stair performance? Like the invitation of just like looking into somebody's eyes and letting your own subconscious do all of the work?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Maybe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No. I'm going to call myself out on that. I'm being super concrete. It's like, no, it has to be like established a fine, quote unquote, fine art. And that leaving these things open ended.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is bullshit. Maybe it's not bullshit. Maybe I'm just uncomfortable with lack of structure.
Jack: Oh, oh, oh.
Bad Erik: Well, But you, you like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right?
Bad Erik: i yeah I mean, yes, we you are.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right, Jack?
Bad Erik: We know that.
Jack: we We already know that, bud.
Bad Erik: ah But oh yeah we know, we know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Jack: We love you and we know that.
Bad Erik: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jack: And the size, I want to point one thing out really quickly, the size of a Rothko.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Jack: This is one case where size does matter. Right.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: So like. Like. if they if you get a If you go to the Met.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah Back to first dates.
Jack: yeah right exactly yeah yeah it's better to just imagine the size like don't you know So.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Bad Erik: ah Well, if you slapped a dick on a canvas, then you would have measurable proof, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, Jack, your point is a good one. Please continue.
Jack: So it it it kind of goes back to the the, you know, the elements of art and principles of design episode. It's like, this is a this is this is an element that matters, right? So like. if you go if you go to uh you know the whitney museum and you see a Rothko in person the size of it Sometimes they're given entire rooms to themselves. And that sense of the sublime.
Jack: is overwhelming because the size is overwhelming. When you go out through the gift shop and you get the fucking Rothko postcard or the 12 by 18 print, you're you're engaging in meaningless consumerism because that's just virtue signaling to say that you were there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Nothing.
Jack: You go home and you put it on your wall or you sticky tape it to your desk or some shit. It doesn't do the same thing for you. unless it recalls the memory you had of the sublime when you were in front of the thing.
Jack: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jack: So.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Scale.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep. I accept. You know, last thought. Maybe. I'm Eric, in a way, what you said about like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: performance art. Like just being kind of. Ah. Maybe the word is... cheap or easy, like... If you're using the viewer to fill in the gaps, how much work did you actually do? But then again, how many people have been able to do that? But then again, would this have happened if he didn't have a tragic end and had the sales and marketing to push him into the limelight? How many Rothko like painters who paint?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Nothingness. are unnoticed or unknown and just die into obscurity. For every 10 ,000... possible Rothkos. How many became famous?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: One, two, three.
Bad Erik: You know. I love when Paul's split personality comes out and he he argues with himself, like cuts himself off mid -sentence.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, but it's like...
Bad Erik: I agree. I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you. I think they're... If I may. Um, ah go against what I said earlier about.
Bad Erik: performance art. and And I think this stands for Rothko as well.
Bad Erik: I think there is something. Inherently Smart. about allowing the viewer to draw their own conclusion.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Agreed.
Bad Erik: Right? Good storytelling. leaves you with something to ponder to chew on to think about it doesn't necessarily tie up all the ends cleanly.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Agreed.
Bad Erik: And so maybe there is something to.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Correct.
Bad Erik: using your whatever vehicle it is, whether it's performance, painting, wood, whatever. inviting the viewer to draw their own conclusions and find the thing that's most profound about their work for you rather than, or for them, rather than you imposing your will upon their experience of your work.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's powerful. And it also comes. across to me as frequently lazy. I don't know why.
Bad Erik: I. So would it be lazy? If you knew. that Rothko had. Eat. a tremendous back catalog of highly technical work. and And he knew what he was doing and he had the capacity to do it. And he made the decision to then paint large squares on canvas.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It feels... Better.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but also like he's experiencing an early form of dementia.
Bad Erik: You know who feels really good to me?
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Our Lord and Savior. Billy and T.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, no.
Bad Erik: Merkel at WCB Woodworking. Listen, I saw him just a couple of days ago and you know what can confirm that free caresses are still available for the asking public. So.
Bad Erik: I'm going to encourage you to head over there to 390 Pike Road, Unit 2, Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. And a couple of things coming up. Saturday, October 24th. He's got the Makers Meetup from 9 a .m. to 3 p .m. That's the two -year showroom anniversary, so you should get there. I'm going to be there. I don't want to speak for other people in our orbit, but I believe there's going to be a couple of people who are normally there.
Bad Erik: as well. So you should come out. Slabs still 50 % off. Uh, uh, all roughs on board, still 10 % off in showroom. And, uh, you know, Bill's just a hell of a guy. So get over there and support the business.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I swear you pick. The most. Ha.
Bad Erik: Goddamn right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: possible moment. to hit me with that.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I love it.
Bad Erik: Goddamn right. got I gotta nut punch you at least once an episode.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I never know when it's gonna happen now.
Bad Erik: ah Jack. Check. Listen. If you had to pick three adjectives to describe our Lord and Savior. Bill Teresa Burkle. What would they be?
Jack: Sublime.
Bad Erik: Oh?
Jack: ah Magnanimous.
Bad Erik: Ooh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ooh, I like that one.
Jack: And. Memorable.
Bad Erik: Okay, okay.
Jack: you
Bad Erik: Sublime, magnanimous, and memorable.
Jack: I mean, you guys have made him memorable in the same way that you have made... Gorilla Glue, memorable. for me, whether I like it or not. And I do like it for the record.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And whether they like it or not.
Bad Erik: like ah Well, there's there is a reason they're not a sponsor on this episode.
Jack: Yes. Yeah.
Bad Erik: And back to WTV. They're doing great.
Jack: up
Bad Erik: Should absolutely go check out their stock of Rikon turning tools and their micro jig sale going on this month. Um, And you can still win him a fellow over there. It's fucking MT five, five, 18 MBL court.
Bad Erik: I don't know what any of that means.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I...
Bad Erik: um But go check it out. Go check it out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i entered the I entered the drawing, Eric.
Bad Erik: Yeah, we all did that one episode.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did. I'm not even kidding. I did.
Bad Erik: Hell yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: there Yeah. Yeah.
Bad Erik: Uh,
Jack: I'm not going to lie. I'm going to go see our Lord and Savior, Billiam, just because. of these amazing ads like i'm gonna go i mean how he's the man's like he's got so much lore built up around him now and i also really want to ask his middle name in person
Bad Erik: Goddamn right.
Bad Erik: Well, yeah, he's... he's ah is i mean He's a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Teresa.
Bad Erik: he's a fucking borderline deity at this point, you know?
Jack: Right?
Bad Erik: So how many of us have a church built around us?
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Christ.
Jack: Right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How many of us give out free caresses?
Bad Erik: I mean...
Jack: o hey Hey, now.
Bad Erik: Only if you know the password.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
Bad Erik: Ah. all Alright.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, that's enough about mine. Jack, what's yours? Look, this whole episode is going to be the three things we hate.
Bad Erik: I know. It's just, that's it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We didn't get at all to bad art and why it's valuable.
Jack: laughter
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This is just.
Jack: Oh, no, we will.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but
Jack: We will.
Bad Erik: We got time. We got time.
Jack: We're going to do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't know. All right, let's see.
Jack: maybe or maybe it's an after show thing i don't know i don't know um I would i would like you guys to to take a quick guess.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jack, what...
Jack: if you would, about what my... let's Let's call it my most hated genre. I'm just, because you know, I think you know the answer. Oh, Teddy.
Bad Erik: Aw, yeah. He's here. oh Your most hated genre.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're...
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Your most hated genre, Jack?
Jack: what What genre? of of art or craft, who I love to dunk on, you guys.
Jack: Alright. I'll tell ya. It's fucking river tables.
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Uh...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's easy.
Bad Erik: That's fair.
Jack: I hate I hate all river tables. I don't care how well made they are.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why?
Jack: I just I hate them. So. i don't want to I don't want to pick myself apart here. i I feel like I know the answers about why I hate River Table so much, and it does get into the conversation of why.
Jack: Knowing what you hate. and why why what you deem to be bad art is so important but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's go Let's do it.
Jack: But what? What if you guys could take a stab, like just. Random. what do you Why do you think?
Bad Erik: Is it just just laziness? Path of least resistance, oof. Excuse me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: following the crowd to make money without original ideas.
Bad Erik: hopping on a trend uh just pouring fucking plastic in the middle of a couple of slabs
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: polluting the environment with microplastics for the next 100 ,000 years.
Bad Erik: I think you just hate pearlescence as a principle.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah you know It's like planned obsolescence. You know it's not going to last very long before it sits in a landfill.
Bad Erik: waste of a beautiful natural material.
Jack: i think all those things are true i think all those things are true I also think, and this is going to be a little art professory maybe, but... I think I have a...
Jack: I think I have a deep distrust of... simulated authenticity. Like. Like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: simulated natural like like it's a river but it's a simulated river
Jack: eat yeah and and and also just like i i ah you guys you guys understand this as woodworkers like I want the material. to have agency.
Jack: You know, like I I want it to be what it really is. As, as much as possible. Now, as somebody that like also works in painting, you know, like paint and and printmaking is all about the. to an extent anyway, ah is all about the like pictorial depiction, right? So it's about the creation of illusion or space or whatever. But when it comes to...
Jack: Raw materials, especially in three -dimensional space. I just I don't fucking like it when things pretend. you know If something is plaster, I want it to look like plaster. If something is wood I want it to look like wood.
Jack: I don't like... I don't like aesthetic shortcuts. That substitute. Spectacle. in the place of meaning. I don't like it
Bad Erik: Jesus, there's layers to that fucking sentence I need to chew on for a minute.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Can you say that one more again?
Jack: Yeah, I... I dislike. aesthetic shortcuts. that substitute spectacle for meaning. like I don't want you to slap I don't know man honestly I'm still picking it apart like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why?
Jack: I don't like it. when you slap uh not you but like the royal you like if you if you slap you know, ah gold leaf or glitter or diamond dust on something like not just that it's a cheap thing materially But you're trying to point something out to me and make it seem valuable and important. And it's not.
Jack: It's really not.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So it's authenticity.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's really authenticity.
Jack: Authenticity and material honesty, I think. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why is honesty and authenticity so important to you?
Jack: Yeah.
Jack: i I don't know man. I don't know. i think I think maybe I am. I think maybe I spent so long.
Jack: mimicking the work of other people. Trying to chase. clout. and chase recognition. Instead of leaning into the things that the weird little things that I like.
Jack: And just saying it's valuable because I like it. And so that mimicry, I think. I think I'm still deep down like really ashamed of the amount of time I spent on mimicry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wow.
Jack: Before I leaned into my own. thing and was like i'm weird and i don't care if you don't like it fuck you here's what i'm doing
Bad Erik: So, Jack, you're...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Jack, that was really good.
Bad Erik: you're Yeah, you're expressing this really interesting thing. but I think like I'm failing to connect. how the thought that you just expressed.
Bad Erik: Comes all the way back around to river tables.
Jack: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: so So what is it about? the river table form? What is it about the materials being used that? that reeks of inauthenticity. in auth Jesus in.
Bad Erik: Authenticity. Nailed it.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Got it in three.
Jack: Ha ha.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Bad Erik: ah versus ah Versus.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: See? Step away from that word, Eric.
Jack: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just step away.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Versus. So you could. digest a river table as two slabs uh sistering slabs could be bookmatched slabs could just be you know whatever it is um that are
Bad Erik: sewn together by this material in the middle that that can then... represent whatever you want it to be, but the the material is not being obscured by the epoxy.
Bad Erik: So, so what is it about that? that You know really ruffles your feathers
Jack: Yeah, I think. I think the, if I may use the phrase entry point one more time. um I think the entry point for my hatred is that. It was, and to an extent still is, so fucking trendy.
Jack: You know, it's like it's a cheap trend that's expensive to make sometimes. more often than not, maybe. And everybody was doing it. Everybody was hopping on this bandwagon of being obsessed with novelty.
Jack: It took zero original thought, zero vulnerability, used a bunch of gaudy fucking materials in some cases And some I saw guys, I saw these pictures of ones that had like literally fucking little fake trees.
Jack: you know, like in the epoxy, like it was looking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or boats? Yeah, like ah have you seen one where someone put a boat in it?
Jack: Or boats? Like... Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jack: to me To me, it reminds me of like... Ugh. Okay. Okay. It reminds me of my cringiest days of high school. where I was in early college, where I was like.
Jack: Constantly trying to virtue signal through clothing? You know, like we've all done this.
Bad Erik: Mm hmm.
Jack: Just to a greater or lesser extent, like, oh, you got your goth kid phase or what, you know, and it's like.
Bad Erik: Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: Oh, sure. Listen, I had frosted tips. you know we're None of us are safe.
Jack: What?
Bad Erik: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
Jack: Okay. I'm gonna need photographic evidence of this.
Bad Erik: We're going to come back to that. ah
Jack: But but. i i And this is this is the... Oh my God, dude. I think i' i think I'm having a revelation right now.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: I've taught this for years, and I think I'm having a revelation right now. I think it's related. to Sprezzatura Have you guys heard this word?
Bad Erik: I don't think so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: no
Jack: or like i maybe if you want to be like really you know super to spread satura you know like i get you gotta you gotta make your fingers go like this and bounce your hey you know whatever so so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hey. Hey.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: huh
Jack: the The concept of sprezzatura is something that I can't possibly imagine because I have sucked at almost everything I've ever done when I start.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: can you Can you tell?
Jack: So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Can you tell us what that term means?
Jack: Yes. Sprezzatura is basically The appearance of mastery? with zero effort. effortless mastery. And I feel like we see a lot of this on social media, right? It's like our highlight reel, our best self.
Jack: You just see the shit being done perfectly and you don't see all the mountains of failure and effort behind it. And I have never. Understood that because nothing has ever.
Jack: come easily to me. I've had to work so hard to be even decent. at anything. And when I see somebody like just. just just jizzing out a river table.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah ah ah jizzing out a river table
Jack: You know? I'm just like...
Bad Erik: There's the t -shirt for this episode.
Jack: jizzing out a river table i'll get right on that um not on jizzing out a river table but on the t -shirt design Just squirting out a river table. All right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Oh no.
Jack: Anyway. So like, it's like, Jesus Christ, could you, could you actually. Do something that requires both skill.
Jack: and emotional depth and is actually like your thing and not just somebody else's thing that you jizzed out to try to look cool and make money
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Bad Erik: So, alright. I. I love everything you just said. I agree. with everything you just said. I will. Simply say,
Bad Erik: This. um To counter your point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That. That Eric has a river table in his living room.
Bad Erik: That, yes, yeah, I still have a river table.
Jack: What?
Bad Erik: Yeah. Now.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And there is.
Jack: Eric, I'm so sorry, bud.
Bad Erik: Now no no no no
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And there is.
Bad Erik: I take...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There is a little boat.
Bad Erik: i take I take no pride in it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In it.
Bad Erik: It is...
Jack: I'm a monster.
Bad Erik: No, no, no, no. You're not a monster monster. I agree, again, with everything you just said. This is the thing I made. mid -2017, 2018, something like that. and um I just haven't gotten around to making a new coffee table.
Bad Erik: Like I assumed that the boat would break. like immediately i assumed it would like i would make something else and then i just haven't yet because it's still is a horizontal surface um but when people come into my house, not not.
Bad Erik: friends with you know aesthetic refinement but like When. somebody comes in to like the the repairman for the the ac came in the technician for the the um compressor came in in may uh or the verizon guys come in to like check things inside or whatever it is Invariably.
Bad Erik: They look around my house. They look around the living room, the dining room, the kitchen where I have. Oh. My entire. Fucking. a discography of work. Right.
Bad Erik: And they look at the river table and they go, that's a really cool piece, man. Did you make that?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because they can relate to a river and a boat.
Bad Erik: And yes, and I think there is a thing there is a point of entry. When they look at. ah you know, what ah a pelican that I carved that feels a little.
Bad Erik: to like, m maybe this guy loves himself a little too much or, or you know, like a carved whiskey cabinet. They're like, ah, you know, do I see that in my house? They look at a river table and they go, I could see that in my house. And I have a. a some modicum of understanding.
Bad Erik: of what it might take to make that because i have also made things and so i think there is a relatability to that object that Um, Yeah, it's insufferable and it's difficult to watch people make them and sell them, et cetera, et cetera.
Bad Erik: but it. it does seem to be the type of thing that people do want in their homes. And somebody has to make the things that people want.
Jack: can i Can I call myself out here as an eli an an elitist piece of shit real quick?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Oh we're all that so please.
Jack: cool okay cool cool cool just so we're all on the same page um uh i don't think you guys are but But... Another realization I just had is like. the river table is really just like...
Jack: the working class Rothko. It.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: It is like...
Bad Erik: It's the Thomas Kinkade.
Jack: It is, though.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: it's It's NASCAR Thunderdog.
Bad Erik: And NASCAR thunder is still the best goddamn pairing of words I've heard this episode.
Jack: Like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Jack: um You've got to look it up. It's wild. It is like you expect to see like a sunlit cottage with the lamps on inside, but it's at Daytona 500.
Jack: It's so wild.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah That sounds kind of awesome.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: I mean it's pretty sick.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: Like, you know, you want it on an airbrushed T -shirt, but you would only wear it at the beach in Panama City Beach and then you'd never admit to owning it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well... Jack. Check, check, check.
Jack: kind of thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jack I have two questions for you. So... The reason, as I understand. that you bristled against the river table. originally.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is because it is. a
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a symbol of your own memories of your life when either You weren't comfortable with who you were.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: or you were mimicking others instead of embracing your authentic self. It's like a reminder, a symbol of those hard feelings that you harbor about yourself, whether it was fitting in at school or or chasing you know mimicry to try and make money. like That's what I heard in your answer at first.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that totally makes sense why that object would conjure those feelings. it's you know, like a... It's symbolic of a river, but in a kind of easy, lazy way, and it doesn't really pay homage to the real thing. You're all about authenticity, right? in and your're More recent.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean, you I don't know how long, but I know. Since I've known you, authenticity has been super high on your bingo card.
Jack: Mm -hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like living who you really are. with unapologetically so i can see why you feel that way Now, if you say it's like the working. man's what did you say the working man's
Jack: it's like It's like working class Rothko.
Bad Erik: Thomas Kinkade is the working man's Rothko is the best fucking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Working class Rothko.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: That's an amazing sentence.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How can you say that when you. So. Generously embrace the sublimeness of a Rothko and then relate it to this thing that you detest.
Jack: here's here's Here's how. Because I know. That. When my dad... looks at a river table. he experiences the same connection to the sublime through memory.
Jack: as when I look at a Rothko. I can see the parallel so clearly.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So these two objects stimulate like someone to fill in the gaps of memory. They're using their memories.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like the river table brings up your dad's memories of being on the river and the Rothko. brings up your memories of a sunset.
Jack: Yep. Yep. And I think that there is an academic elitism in me that will probably never die. An elitism that feels very uncomfortable in tension with my super blue collar upbringing.
Jack: that I want to distance myself from. in a lot of ways right and that's one of the reasons why i think bad art is so important It's like. knowing what you hate. you say You say you hate it. You might say you it's you're you're disgusted by it, conceptually, aesthetically, whatever.
Jack: What's really going on back there? is that you are having a strong gut reaction. that is related to your worldview? to your value system.
Jack: to the way that you see the world. to deficiencies that you see in yourself that you haven't actually fully uncovered yet And knowing what you hate. is the entry point. to all of those things.
Jack: Because until you know all of those things, you're not really going to be able to lock in. fully to your truest. artistic and creative voice. and also You're going to be so tied up in your own ego that you're constantly trying to be so good. You never let yourself be bad. You never give yourself permission to play. and open up and be bad and discover new things when you're chasing mastery like that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see what you did there Um, Bad art has two faces and... um One face. is how we started the show. What do you hate? Get to know your own.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: your own underlying. Well... value system preferences. um This is all about us as people underlying what we like and don't like about ourselves. And then that's broadcasting as to what we hate. That's one face of bad art is learning about yourself.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right. The other face of bad art. is learning about. how to do art. failing. Oh, failure is such a great teacher. Failure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: teaches you more sometimes and the lessons last longer and you remember them longer and how can you figure out how to make things successfully or. Good things that... you like and people like, if that's your definition of successful, how can you learn that without? failures, failures are instructive. So on the one hand, I hear a very deep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: emotional conversation about who we are as people and what we've experienced in our life and who we are now and value system. And on the other hand, it's a much more kind of utilitarian learn how to do a craft kind of discussion maybe it and i know they're related don't you like fucking paul they yeah they they weave into each other yeah yeah i know that i know that but i'm trying to separate them as two streams right because one's very Very deep, like you're on the therapist's couch.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like we've been on a therapist's couch for the last hour.
Bad Erik: We have. We have.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right and the other is like you're in art school let's figure out how to make good art
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. So. All right. Well, I just paused the podcast and that's why there's this jump in my logic. um And that's because we didn't even touch the topic that we said we were going to cover. ah We said we were going to cover how bad art can be valuable and teaches us.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um I mean, I guess we touch it because it taught us this was the therapist couch.
Bad Erik: Listen, I think, in fairness... In fairness. what the the the most feedback I get about this podcast is people feeling like they are in a bar having a conversation with us and like shouting at the podcast, like doing all the things.
Bad Erik: That's literally what just happened is we just fucking talked for an hour and we were just like, oh, this is what we covered.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jack: Love that.
Bad Erik: Oops.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This happens with Jack, dude, man.
Bad Erik: No. Yeah, yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean, you and I are bad enough by ourselves, but even with Jack, it's even better.
Bad Erik: Yep.
Jack: Sorry not sorry, ma 'am.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so
Bad Erik: Yep. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: An hour went by, buy a ticket, ride the ride.
Bad Erik: laughter
Jack: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so an hour went by effortlessly i don't know we talked about the art we hate In the after show. which you can get if you're a patron. So join our Patreon. It's in the liner notes. ah We're going to talk about... Our own. Worst.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: thing we've made that we've hate and i have a doozy i know i do
Bad Erik: Oh yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, I fucking hated it. It was it i made me want to puke. I hated it so much. We're going to talk about the things we hate most. Now, what about the fact... that we didn't cover the topic, which is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What do we learn? from bad art or our own bad art ah more than what we like and don't like as humans. That's we covered today. i Get to know yourself and some of your underlying value systems and prejudices, right?
Bad Erik: listen
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's what we talked about today. But there's a whole... More. let's say, instructive side, which is how to make good art how can you figure out what you know if you know what that art is Is that instructive for how to fix it? quote unote fix it, to make good art or art you like or art that your audience likes if that's your goal.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We. decided. That we will. tackle this in a separate dedicated episode. We just decided that. two minutes ago. So that's what's going to happen.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so ah that will. Follow this episode yeah at some point in the future, and ah we'll get on to the after show.
Bad Erik: That'll be some point in the future. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks, y 'all, for listening. Jack, as usual.
Bad Erik: Thanks buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You were amazing.
Bad Erik: Always a banger.
Jack: Oh, thanks for having me guys.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ugh. Amazing as always, Jack. And we'll see you in the after show.
Bad Erik: Okay, bye.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye y 'all.
