Transcript
Jeff Hein: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well...
Bad Erik: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Last time we were together, that is, myself and Eric and Jack, we got ourselves into a little bit of a pickle. We were going to talk about bad art and what it can do for you if you choose to make it. But, well...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Things didn't go as planned and we spent the entire hour and a half talking about things we hate instead. So what do we do? We decide to do it again. And not only that.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But we invite another person. So it's. Tonight it's... Of course, the sexiest voice. in podcasting Jack Thomas.
Jack: Hello!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Of course, my boy, Eric. On the mic.
Bad Erik: Sup bitches
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we invited... our amazing, world -renowned painter friend. Jeff Hein.
Jeff Hein: Hello.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. So. ah Eric's like, just hit record.
Bad Erik: I... Hold on. Are you going to just hit the fucking music, dog? Why are we still in this cold open?
Jeff Hein: ah
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, no editing.
Jeff Hein: Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's how we roll on this podcast.
Bad Erik: laughter
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So that's what you fucking get. You get what you get and you don't get upset. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking. And I got my boy in the chair, Eric Curtis. Eric, say hi in Spanish.
Bad Erik: Como se llama NASCAR Thunder, bitches?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. And as I said, we have Jack Thomas, learning designer, educator, art professor. And now town zoning zoning and planning a town member
Jack: this is
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or a town employee.
Jack: Uh, zoning and planning administrator.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Excuse me?
Bad Erik: With that voice, I could be administered too.
Jack: Mmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And.
Bad Erik: Nope, that sounded weirder than I meant it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so
Jack: It's fine. Whatever.
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: Didn't we just introduce you to introduce us to your girlfriend?
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: um I like Mary, too.
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: Rrrr.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, she does. An extraordinary world -class painter, educator, and maker across almost every field I can think of, Jeff Hein.
Jack: Mmm.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff, thanks for joining the mess that is ah this episode on Bad Art Version 2.
Jeff Hein: I had to come because my name was brought up several times. I'm here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It was because you.
Jeff Hein: I'm here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: were part of my answer.
Jeff Hein: I'm here to defend myself.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
Jeff Hein: Just kidding, Jack.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So just to remind just to remind everyone.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just to remind everyone. We... started with What do we hate? And we. I didn't realize how illuminating talking about what I hate. With.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Teach me so much about. my underlying and maybe not often discussed value system. So to review. Paul hated. contemporary art that gets.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know, made into something it's not. At least that that was the thing I hate. And I referenced our my buddy Jeff, our buddy Jeff, because...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I trusted Jeff to give me the the truth. You know, like he's been in this field.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Who knows? Like, who knows more than Jeff?
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff's going to tell me the fucking truth. and He's like, yeah. And for his new clothes, baby, it's OK. You feel that way. And that was my answer. ah Eric's answer. was performative. Art? Right?
Bad Erik: Yeah, it was.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric?
Bad Erik: and And I really like I'm actively looking at NASCAR Thunder right now.
Jeff Hein: I gotta look this up.
Bad Erik: and I don't want to harp on jokes from from old episodes, but it's so... It's so bad it almost comes around the other end and and starts to get good again. you know
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: NASCAR Thunder being.
Jeff Hein: Wait, this is a TV show? It's a TV show?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, NASCAR Thunder.
Bad Erik: No, this said Thomas Kinkade painting.
Jeff Hein: Oh, I was gonna say, I didn't know he was in TV.
Bad Erik: And it is. It is just the Daytona 500. That's all. It's just a still life. of a bunch of people watching cars drive fast.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Bad Erik: It's beautiful.
Jack: But painted painted as painted as though it's an illuminated cottage in the woods.
Jeff Hein: No kidding.
Bad Erik: It's perfect.
Jeff Hein: Wait a minute.
Bad Erik: It's perfect.
Jack: A la Thomas Kinkade.
Bad Erik: It's a perfect image.
Jeff Hein: That's crazy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: To the listeners, I'm going to apologize up front. This episode is going to be all over the place.
Jeff Hein: It's already begun.
Bad Erik: I don't know. we We opened with double intros, so we're off to a good start.
Jack: Off the rails.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We did.
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We did. And Jack, your answer was river tables. And you hated the inauthenticity.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like you hate when materials are parading around as a real piece of nature when they're not. Why don't you just use the real thing, right?
Jack: Mm -hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What's sort of your take? So I promised Jeff, even though he's hung up on Thomas Kinkade's painting of...
Jeff Hein: Huh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: of
Jeff Hein: I'm dying over here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Jeff Hein: Look at at this.
Bad Erik: it's So good.
Jeff Hein: so i wanted I wanted to...
Bad Erik: It's so good. It's the fireworks behind the F1 fighters over the like American flag.
Jeff Hein: And the airplanes.
Bad Erik: It's the perfect piece of Americana. like it's
Jeff Hein: Oh yeah.
Bad Erik: no
Jeff Hein: He didn't miss anything. The blimp, the whole nine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: try
Jack: But i think I think that when you display it, you're contractually required to display it above a bowl of potpourri.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: that That is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ah.
Bad Erik: Okay. I thought it was going to be in an American flag frame.
Jack: necessary.
Jack: oh well that too that too yeah that's an upcharge but yeah it's required yeah Yep.
Bad Erik: Mm, okay. Okay, next to a bust of Lincoln.
Jack: No, no, no, no, not Lincoln.
Bad Erik: No.
Jack: um ah ah
Bad Erik: Who do we think? Andrew Garfield?
Jack: and Andrew Jackson.
Bad Erik: No, that's the Spider -Man.
Jack: Andrew Jackson.
Bad Erik: One of the Garfields. Mr. President Garfield, good start.
Jeff Hein: That was crazy.
Bad Erik: So Jeff, what do you hate about art? no
Jeff Hein: Oops. Is that an actual question?
Bad Erik: Yeah, yeah, yeah, hit me
Jeff Hein: Yeah. ah it
Bad Erik: Paul's already so angry that when we fucked this episode five minutes in.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I am like, oh my...
Jeff Hein: Sorry, I'm going to wait on Paul's cue.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, my sweet ADHD. This episode is just going to absolutely be the death of me.
Jeff Hein: There's too much of it.
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know it. i'm I'm outnumbered.
Jeff Hein: hey
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um So. I wanted to give...
Jeff Hein: That's right. it
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I wanted to give Jeff his opportunity to identify something he hates. And i give Jeff, don't. If I can say I didn't give you a fair warning, I texted to you earlier today to give you time to think about it.
Jeff Hein: No, no, no, there's plenty.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And say something you hate that I won't have to edit out later because you offend someone. and um What does that tell you about you? That's the second part of the question.
Jeff Hein: are Art related, you mean?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It could be anything related, honestly. It doesn't have to be art, but yeah, let's start with art.
Jeff Hein: Okay. um well jack brought up one thing i'll talk about art too but This idea of inauthenticity drives me up a wall. Particularly in my field.
Jeff Hein: i'm not I mean, it's hard to judge when someone's inauthentic, but sometimes you can just feel it. you know where there's this whole persona around. the creator that has nothing to do with the creation.
Jeff Hein: and um I wouldn't go as far as to say I hate it, but I find it. mildly offensive. you know it be because the work should stand on its own you shouldn't have to You shouldn't have to... you know um have this non -stop performance as the creator the work should be the thing that you know performs so to speak So that's definitely a pet peeve of mine.
Jeff Hein: Um, And then. um as far as Art is concerned. i actually agree with eric 100 some of this performance art It drives me absolutely up a wall. Not all of it though.
Jeff Hein: Have you guys ever seen... Because if it if it if it shows... The things we've talked about in past episodes, that you know how I've defined art? with um that all great art should have three things. It should have composition, good composition, good craftsmanship, and a good concept. You could say the three Cs.
Jeff Hein: Right. And there is some perform performance art that actually has those things.
Bad Erik: Mm -hmm.
Jeff Hein: Like I remember seeing on YouTube this guy that was kind of falling off stairs onto a trampoline. Have you guys seen this? um He falls off stairs onto a trampoline.
Jeff Hein: And then he comes back up onto the top of the stairs. It's just ah it's a staircase. It's not attached to anything but the floor. And then the trampolines off to the side and he falls off. and gracefully comes back to the top.
Jeff Hein: and almost lands on a single toe and then just.
Bad Erik: and
Jeff Hein: falls into position again. Then he'll take two steps down the stairs, fall onto the trampoline and gracefully come back up. And he does it with what. I would. I think it falls into the category of great craftsmanship because.
Jeff Hein: He does it almost like a dancer. it's There's this ah athleticism to it. There's grace. And it's just beautiful to watch. And then you see the stuff that.
Jeff Hein: I think Eric was talking about that I am 100 % behind where... You get some schmuck that just jumps off. We'll use a trampoline again. Jumps off a trampoline with a piece of chalk and rubs it across the wall. or swings a bucket around while they're sitting on their tush, you know.
Jeff Hein: And it's that kind of stuff. It's just like. The thing that offends me the most about it is it makes a mockery of. What I'm trying so hard to do.
Bad Erik: m
Jeff Hein: you know because imagine like if if you guys consider yourself woodworkers, no, I'm going to go even further. You are, you are, because you are, you're a scientist. Like that is like.
Jeff Hein: Any mother would be proud. Right. But, you know, a woodworker and an artist, any mother would be disappointed.
Bad Erik: I don't know.
Jeff Hein: So let's go let's go with scientists. Right.
Bad Erik: can Can confirm.
Jeff Hein: So let's go with scientists. Imagine if there was a whole group of scientists that made a mockery of your field because they would run experiments that made absolutely no sense.
Bad Erik: Don't, don't.
Jeff Hein: and just dress in white.
Bad Erik: we Don't we have those in government right now? or
Jeff Hein: yeah There might be.
Bad Erik: Are we not?
Jeff Hein: And then they they wear their white coats and their glasses and whatever it is that scientists do, and they wander around, but they look really smart. They make sure they dress really smart. Amen.
Jeff Hein: And then they come to work and they just. mix random things in a Petri dish and call it science, but it doesn't even they're not even doing anything. I mean, Wouldn't you find that unbelievably offensive to your career?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: E. Yes I would.
Jeff Hein: Especially. Especially if those people. actually fooled the public. And the public started paying. tens of millions of dollars for their so -called research.
Jeff Hein: and then And you're doing real research.
Bad Erik: Paul, how do you feel about the supplement industry?
Jeff Hein: And...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, I was just kidding.
Bad Erik: Yeah!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that
Jeff Hein: Hey i' I'm not saying it doesn't exist.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: eric
Jeff Hein: But that's my point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, you took the words out of my mouth.
Jeff Hein: That's how I see art.
Bad Erik: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, that's how that's how I see this kind of art.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right? there's a lot of pseudoscience there's a lot of pseudoscience in supplements and vitamins, and all the the now the thing is peptides.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: none of it's empirically valid Very little of it's empirically validated. Very little of it holds up to so any kind of scientific rigor or scientific effect. Like we cannot even reproduce the effects that are claimed half the time.
Jeff Hein: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So yes, ah Jeff, everything you said already exists.
Jack: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The question is. How far is its reach into the general public? Is it ah is it a public threat? and But anyway, your point is well taken. Yes, it it it absolutely chaps my ass.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: when I see it.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, it's my ah my i I know someone who used to work for a company that did one product.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. ah Very good.
Jeff Hein: It was a drink that was supposed to be. i know I'm not going to say. maybe you know i'll just say the name because i think they're out of business it's zango it's this orange juice that came from this exotic plant And they built this entire empire around it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: a
Jeff Hein: And my, this particular person I know. Didn't work for them, but he he was a salesperson that did swag. So he would do all their like backpacks and hats and whatnot.
Jeff Hein: And so he had to go to meetings. you know these big conferences that they would hold where they would have like testimony meetings about. how it cured them of cancer or it changed their lives or saved their marriage or or made them more potent in bed or like all these people are up there crying on stage that this juice changed their lives And it's just not real.
Jack: My God.
Jeff Hein: It's just not.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: And it was just like, what in the world is happening?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: That's how I see this art. it's that
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Well... Okay. I don't know how how early I want to push buttons. so um the The placebo effect is a very real documented scientific scientific effect. Right. And so if you take a thing.
Bad Erik: And you go like, I feel better. you feel better like nobody can deny that you feel better you can't you can't quantify that uh simultaneously plenty of people would argue that um the market sets the value of the artwork.
Bad Erik: So if people are willing to spend millions of dollars on dog shit art, who are we to say it's dog shit art? like that's That's the thing that's being defined by art as popular culture. So like what?
Jeff Hein: Yeah, it's much more complicated than that, though, because you got you got to consider that a lot of people are moneying money laundering through buying expensive art.
Bad Erik: I... Oh, of course.
Bad Erik: No, that's true. I don't know how many people are money laundering through science.
Jack: It's true.
Bad Erik: All those supplements, maybe, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Zero.
Jeff Hein: I...
Jack: Hmm?
Jeff Hein: Well, no, I mean, like this company made a fortune by pretending that their product was real, even though they knew it was a placebo at best.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: You know.
Jack: You know, i i used to I used to have an an art professor in grad school that said, there are there are two kinds of artists there are artists that make art for people and there are artists that make art for history books and I don't necessarily agree with that but I can see where there's this kind of distinction of like pop culture flash in the pan kind of art where it's just like Somebody's trying to capitalize on what's hot right now.
Jack: It's not actually necessarily their own style. They just see there's a trend. I'm going to capitalize on it, like with NFTs, that that's something that comes to mind, you know. But then there are people that make art that's enduring because of that combination of craftsmanship. and concept and what was the other C?
Jeff Hein: Odd. composition.
Jack: and composition.
Jeff Hein: Or design, yeah.
Jack: yeah and so i think i think if I agree with you, Jeff, that like if a piece of art has all three of those things, then it has the potential to be like elevated to that sort of history book art. Like it's at least worthy of getting in there.
Jack: But there are a lot of people that make absolute flash in the pan dog shit.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: but they capitalize on, well, and And of course, all three of you are exceptions, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um
Jack: But like they capitalize on an internet following. When really the art's not that great and the ideas aren't that great, but the marketing is apparently fucking clutch.
Jeff Hein: Oh yeah.
Jack: Like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
Bad Erik: There's plenty of people I know like that.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: Yeah. Like the marketing is the product.
Bad Erik: Some of whom I would consider friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jack: Oh. Interesting.
Jeff Hein: You just lost all your friends.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: because're every like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Well, I said some of whom.
Jack: but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: they know They know who they are, Eric.
Bad Erik: Well, we're not we're not that close friends.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: Yes.
Bad Erik: None of my very close friends are that.
Jack: Say it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jack: are they Are they sitting at home right now going, is he talking about me?
Bad Erik: I hope so.
Jack: Like, do they do they know?
Jeff Hein: is what Is one of them in this conversation right now?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Holy shit.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: OK, wait, I have a follow up for Jeff. So, Jeff, if that's your answer. What does that? What does that answer reveal to you about you?
Jeff Hein: Um...
Jeff Hein: You want me to psychoanalyze myself? Um.
Jack: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: Dang, that's good. I don't, that's a, that's tough to just off the cuff. um I would say.
Jeff Hein: I'll go with the positive first. and then the negative. There's probably a lot more negative than it says about me. But I think one is that I take my work seriously and that I'm passionate. and that it means a lot to me.
Jeff Hein: Hence the offense. you know, because something's meaningful. And if someone makes a joke of it, meaning whether they did it intentionally or not, it. um because I'm so passionate about it, it it becomes offensive.
Jeff Hein: The negative side is, yeah, there's there's some intolerance there. You know, um live and let live. I probably should not. Let it. It probably shouldn't annoy me that much. I mean, as long as... you know, um I can make it. then who cares if...
Jeff Hein: Bad art sells. You know? um And in the reality, in reality, there's there's a... I have. friends, at least acquaintances that. I think a relatively...
Jeff Hein: i don't want Not even mediocre, but I have friends that are really doing... Great work. Um, But... Well, good work, but not great work. And yet they...
Jeff Hein: are selling at higher prices than those in the same gallery doing great work. because of their internet presence, because they're good looking, because of how they dress, because of what country they're from, because of their accent.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, so
Jeff Hein: Right. And I'm happy for them. I think my problem is... I struggle with a little bit of pride and It's I struggle with.
Jeff Hein: accepting that so much of our population is so naive. And um as though I'm not. right and i know of in some ways i'm sure i'm naive too but so that's a character flaw But to watch all these people pour money into these things.
Jeff Hein: even though I'm happy for the artists that they're successful. it It's very discouraging that the public is so easily fooled.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: m
Jeff Hein: um That's the worst part of it in my mind. Because if someone were to come to me tomorrow and say, you know what, Jeff, I'm going to start paying. $10 million dollars a painting for you because you wear flat caps.
Jeff Hein: Right. And I would be.
Bad Erik: i would I would buy a lot of flat caps, so I'm not going to lie.
Jeff Hein: Oh, yeah I've already got a lot because I'm waiting for that to happen, but it hasn't yet.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: But. I would be like, I take the money. I i don't judge any artists.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Why would you not take the money?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Jeff Hein: you but but But the fact that someone would pay me more because of how I look or my internet presence or. You know, it's just.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but Jeff, jeff can can I say, what what I hear you saying is there's there's an honesty to being paid.
Jeff Hein: Crazy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: for the quality of what you've made.
Jeff Hein: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But there's there's a whole... second side, which is branding and image and marketing that is more smoke and mirrors. And that actually has a very large effect on the price.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And it doesn't necessarily really speak to the quality of the item. It's really the story, the the ecosystem surrounding the piece. And that makes people want to buy it because they want a piece of, they don't just want the art. They want a piece of something larger than they are. They want to feel a certain way. And that person, their branding, their image, their ecosystem makes the buyer feel a certain way.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Even more, maybe maybe as part of the art the art. The art and the branding surrounding that art. are are mixed together and they're giving the buyer a feeling maybe that the art on its own doesn't Doesn't do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we, I don't know if we call that naivete or if that's just the human condition.
Jeff Hein: Maybe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't i don't know, but. I know I'm susceptible to it.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, I think we all are to some degree.
Jack: I think it's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe. maybe
Jeff Hein: but the other thing The other thing that it...
Jack: I think it's partly virtue and status.
Jeff Hein: The other thing that it come that comes to mind that tells I know this about myself is that two of to a... fault. um I would literally feel guilty.
Jeff Hein: being paid for something where I didn't do my best. Right. And, you know, take my son's the same way. And he's got he's studying to be an artist. But right now he's got a handyman business. It's doing quite well. And he.
Jeff Hein: if If a job, like well... He actually dinged a cabinet he was working on. something completely different, but setting his tools down, he dinged a cabinet, barely a tiniest little scratch on their countertops.
Jeff Hein: And. um he spent like A day and a half. polishing out this scratch. did And he didn't, the the client said. The client said, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. And Chase is like, no, it's not. It's not ethical to come in and scratch your counter.
Jeff Hein: and not fix it. But I find that so many artists will twirl a bucket around. and guilt -free. Just... pull the wool over the eyes of the public and i to me it's almost an an ethical thing as well you know it's like come what are you doing
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: Here's my question.
Jeff Hein: Like you haven't earned this.
Jack: Here's my question.
Jeff Hein: you know it just feels wrong.
Jack: All right.
Jeff Hein: What's that?
Jack: here's my question are they pulling the wool over people's eyes in some cases yes But in some...
Jeff Hein: Some cases, not all.
Jack: But in some cases... Are they themselves just... Not that smart. and not that talented and they they think they think that what they're doing is incredibly profound somehow and
Jeff Hein: Yes, there's that too.
Jack: I'm asking this as a rhetorical question because And Jeff, I know that you must have been in the same situation. Like as a former college professor. teaching undergrad and grad students.
Jack: There are so many times. that and i couldn't do this because i would have probably absolutely gotten fired, but there are so many times I just wanted to set pull someone aside and say, Hey. um You have...
Jack: decent ideas, but not great ideas. And you have decent skill, but not great skill. It's okay if art is just your hobby. You don't...
Jeff Hein: hey
Jack: you don't have to go to school for this and try to make this your thing but Our culture is so hell bent on your profession being your identity and on monetizing every frigging thing you do that.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: some of these kids who are, you know, of the, especially of the younger millennials and and younger than that. who feel like they have to pursue it in this way. You can't just have a hobby. anymore i think they're not pulling the wool over people's eyes i think that they just actually aren't that great And they just don't know it.
Jeff Hein: Well, and I'll add to that. I actually agree with you. It's probably more. More of them are probably in that category than what I said. Um, And I'll use my son as an example again. This is interesting. I think it's relevant.
Jeff Hein: um He said to me, He got home from a two -year trip. to Romania. He was in there and doing service in Romania. and He... when he got back he decided he wanted to be a painter and the reason why is because he said because i have natural talent i'm like but are you into it he's like Not yet, but...
Jeff Hein: I naturally gifted at it and I think I could do it. And I was like. And that's exactly what I did. I was never passionate about art. i just It came so easy. to me i'm like I'll do it. But then, and that's what he's doing. He's following his skill, not his dream. There's actually a book that I read about this. Are you guys familiar with that? It's where it's you're supposed to follow your skills and not your passions, and then your skills will become your passions.
Bad Erik: No.
Jeff Hein: I need to look that up there's a book that I'd listen to about that years ago. um But anyway. And I found when I was in college, I was doing the same thing. I didn't go into art because...
Jeff Hein: Like, oh, it's so fun and art is so cool and this, that, and the other. It's because it came easily to me and I thought, okay. This is it fits. But I would sit in class.
Jeff Hein: And I can't even count how many times students would say, I'd say to students, so what brought you here? And they'd say, I'm not good at anything else. And I'd be like, don't if if you're stupid, just walk away.
Jeff Hein: Don't make a mockery of what I'm doing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: because i'm
Bad Erik: I don't know.
Jeff Hein: Because I'm taking this thing seriously. And you guys are all here because you're incompetent? Is that what you're telling me? Like you're literally incompetent. So what you do is become an artist That's one of the hardest things to do.
Jeff Hein: and and And when you're incompetent, you're going to sign up for the art program? It's just wild. you know and so you're right i agree with you 100 there's so many students in art That are like well It's cool And I don't. have any other thing going for me. So I'll become an artist. and
Jack: And unfortunately...
Jeff Hein: And then we end up with people flowing throwing buckets around.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but
Jack: That it gets It gets tolerated way too much, ah especially in in... liberal arts schools and research universities like if if art was still taught exclusively through the atelier model it like mediocrity would never be tolerated and i i kind of wish that was the case but like it becomes well I...
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: No.
Jack: i went to I went to one of the best. undergrad schools you know like a top top 50 undergrad school uh and and went to school for art although i when i started out i was intending to study physics and and then Transferred. to to art. But I went to school with a lot of...
Jack: especially young women. who were at this very fancy school to get their um MRS degree. And the art program was just a place to play in some cases, ah depending on the discipline.
Jack: And it was weird that some disciplines were taken much more seriously than others. And I think that varies from program to program. But there is a lot of room for mediocrity, especially at the undergraduate level.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: in in the arts and they'll just take your money. you know, and and put you through the program and you get out and you get into grad school.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: And especially if you get into a good grad school program. I. I hit a wall. with painting. when I was in grad school because I thought I was well -prepared. Turns out I didn't get taught shit in undergrad.
Jack: for painting and had to claw my way in grad school into being a decent painter so that I could then teach painting. And it was painful. they're just They'll sail you right through.
Jeff Hein: That's common.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, you know I have an Italian. Do you know I have Italian, Jack?
Jack: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: So I had a student, this is common, but this is the most dramatic and I can't even believe it happened.
Jack: Yep.
Jeff Hein: I had a girl who. came here from North Carolina. to study with me and she'd already had a master's degree in. fine art, you know, and I put quotes up because. She didn't learn anything about fine art.
Jeff Hein: And um within the first month. she's I learned when she's doing an assignment that she didn't even know what value was. Yeah.
Jack: What?
Bad Erik: I fucking know what value is.
Jeff Hein: For those not watching, the expression... on Jack's face is like, what? I kid you not, she had a master's degree. And so value for... for you guys, the woodworkers.
Jeff Hein: that only are good at woodworking and nothing else, right? I'm just kidding. Yeah. No, the value means light and dark. Like, you know. how light or dark something is. That's all it means. And she had no idea.
Jeff Hein: She had no idea. And she already had a master's degree.
Jack: oh
Jeff Hein: from a university.
Jack: That's embarrassing.
Jeff Hein: Is that wild?
Jack: That's embarrassing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, so...
Jeff Hein: So she spent another few years with me in kind of figuring it out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well... That that actually. but Before we move back to bad art, which we need to do. ah But there's there's an interesting question, though, that you guys have been talking about, right?
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Which is... Um... Are there guardrails? for Making sure that. People that... are not good enough. ah they They don't have the aptitude or the skill or whatever it is. theyre For one reason or another, they're just not right. It's just not a good fit for a career. Are there guardrails to off -ramp them before it gets too far? in the process so In science.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The PhD program. has what's called a qualifying exam. And.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that is the That is the first off, that is the first exit ramp. If you are not cut out. for a PhD. Uh, that is the off ramp. And so what it's. trying to do is test every person in a PhD program in a way that we can tell you have it or you don't.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And if you don't, that's okay. It's just not the PhD program, which is the next five to seven years is just not for you. And and we you should take the exit and have a career in science, but maybe like a different career in science, maybe the PhD, the philosophy, you know. the doctor of philosophy, the decision maker, the thinker, like maybe that's not your strong suit. Maybe your strong suit is running experiments and you do it really, really well. And, you know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so So even though it's an off ramp, it's not like you're a loser. It's just like, that's... Like. that particular PhD path is not for you. And maybe There is a better fit. And so we have this in science to try and qualify those that stay in the path. So we avoid, ah Jeff, to what you were saying, the bucket.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: you know throwing paint on the canvas right because they were never qualified in the first place ah Jeff, for your Atelier.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Do you pre -screen the students who want to join your Atelier to make sure like they're all of the right? magnitude before they get On the path?
Jeff Hein: Well... Yes and no. So I have an online Atelier and then I have an in -person Atelier. So the online Atelier weeds. I don't want to say weeds out. That doesn't that sounds... not very generous.
Jeff Hein: I choose from... the online atelier who i'll take into the in -person atelier and i only
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Jeff Hein: As of... Relatively recently, I'm only taking advanced students from online in person.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Jeff Hein: And so that way I can sort of figure out. who's most serious about it and who's got the most potential.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Jeff Hein: But in in an Atelier, it's often very self -regulating. Because unlike... What Jack said about universities. In an Atelier...
Jeff Hein: it's um Well, at least least this is in my experience, in my atelier. And I was assuming many more. Um, the competition's much higher because the to sign up for an Italian, you're not getting a degree.
Jeff Hein: So you got to convince your parents or you know that that they're giving you all this money for something that's never going to mount to a degree or any kind of certificate of any of any meaning. And you have to convince them that it's worth it. That's number one. or You're dealing with retired people or people quitting their jobs to do this dream. And again, they got nothing but the training. They have nothing else to show for it like a past test.
Jeff Hein: you know, or a certificate or diploma or whatever. So the competition is high because you generally get people that are risk takers and that are pretty bold and brave in the tallies in general. compared to universities.
Jeff Hein: um But then it's also self -regulating. Because... at least in my atelier, Every section of Talier, I'm sort of the wall. I would be the test. So i would they can't move from one section to another until they've, I'm going to put this in quotes again, mastered the one they're working in.
Jeff Hein: I only put that in quotes because you're never. you're always growing, but there's a certain level of professionalism. That's pretty dang high standard that I expect of every area of the curriculum, and they cannot move on until they get there.
Jeff Hein: until they get there So there will be students. The worst case scenario I've ever had was a student who was on the first assignment for a year and a half.
Jack: What's the first assignment?
Jeff Hein: This. Just copying a shape exactly like itself. That's it. One shape.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: my god
Jeff Hein: He didn't have it in him. At all. It wasn't, he wasn't a. dumb guy he was a great guy he had a lot of potential but not art potential He stuck it out longer than anybody. and He finally said to me, Jeff, I don't think I've got what it takes. And and can you give me your honest opinion? And once he asked, then I said, no, I don't think you do.
Jeff Hein: You know, I never offer it. But but in ah in a university setting. you don't have that opportunity to see where your weaknesses are because you just moved from painting one Then everyone just goes through a 16 -week course. No one really learns anything because it's too quick. Then you go to painting two. No one really learns anything. It's too fast. Then painting three. Then you graduate.
Jeff Hein: And then obviously, there are other areas like drawing that are... But. In painting, my experience was three classes and you're done. Three painting classes. That's just nuts. So you don't have time to even find out if you measure up.
Jeff Hein: You know, unless you're one of the exceptional students.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
Jack: yeah
Jeff Hein: they they They do happen where you... despite the lack of... rigorous education you um the students occasionally will rise above the education just because they have it's more intuitive to them And um that that does happen, but it's not common.
Jeff Hein: I mean, I think in my graduating class, I never graduated. I dropped out. with three credits left but i would say my graduating class because all the people i was in school with I'm the only one making a full -time living out of I don't know 300 people
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
Jeff Hein: Yeah, because none of them got an education. And I was fortunate to have gotten risen above the education. and move on but It was not an education. And there were no parameters at all.
Bad Erik: Well...
Jeff Hein: no Nobody to tell you you need to keep working. They just said, pay me. Here's your diploma. You know?
Bad Erik: Can I ask a question?
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: because And I know we got to get to the whole bad art of it all because now we're now we're almost two hours into this episode ah and we still haven't asked the question, but...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're a half hour in. Yeah.
Bad Erik: Everything that we've talked about so far. um we've We've been discussing natural aptitude. How do you identify natural aptitude and how do you follow natural aptitude? And we've not. At least. I don't think we have accounted for work ethic.
Bad Erik: Like just natural hardheadedness. I'm going to learn to be maybe not great. but good. which is ah the reason I ask. I think that's where I fall. Like I've said on this podcast many a time, I don't think I have a natural aptitude for creativity. I had to fucking. get punched in the face multiple times and learn the basics and the mathematical equations to figure out how to make a thing beautiful.
Bad Erik: And. Over the course of whatever it's been 15 years now in this career um I'm, I'm okay. Like I'm not bad at it, but I'm making a living at it.
Bad Erik: And I don't think, Jeff, I hold very much the same, um or at least I think I do, the same value structure as you do. I don't want to be an embarrassment to my craft. And I don't think that I am.
Bad Erik: But I also know.
Jeff Hein: No, of course not
Bad Erik: I also know that I'm not as naturally gifted at this as some other people some other people I went to school with And so.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Bad Erik: I think the way that I got to where I am is just fucking stubbornness. and doing the thing and refusing to be worse than the the worst person in class.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: all right
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright. I want to ask. ah This is an impromptu. lightning round. Okay? We're going to, we're going to bat art. We'll, we'll get there. I promise everyone, but I, we gotta go here.
Bad Erik: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jack: yeah
Bad Erik: We'll get there in episode three. Yeah.
Jack: Part three.
Jeff Hein: Episode three.
Jack: Part three.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's in a. Right now. It's an impromptu lightning round. Time out. Tiempo. What is, I'm going to ask all of us. What is your aptitude?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And what? Is your. work ethic.
Jeff Hein: Wait, I don't understand. You want to define our talents versus our motivations?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So...
Jack: Like on a scale of 1 to 10?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What do you... What do you think are your aptitudes is that your career or have you been able to muscle it to some extent that's what Eric really brought up.
Jeff Hein: a
Bad Erik: o
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, Eric saying like, I have some aptitude.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe it's not a plus aptitude towards this, but I have fucking work ethic and I persevered and I made a living out of it. Eric, is is that, is that fair?
Bad Erik: Yeah, no, that's I think that's exactly right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. So that brings up the question of like.
Jeff Hein: a
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What are your aptitudes? What what are your aptitudes? And what where do you think you just... Hit the gas because you have good work ethic. And is that your career?
Jeff Hein: Can I say something before we answer this question, though?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.
Jeff Hein: Cause. I personally believe. The talent, if particularly in creative fields, is much more than... the the act of creating itself.
Jeff Hein: I would argue that you do have an aptitude. in Well, let me put it this way. if if For a great artist, whether that be a woodworker. or a painter or sculptor, whatever.
Jeff Hein: has to have a combination of aptitudes.
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: It's not just one aptitude.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sure.
Bad Erik: Fair.
Jeff Hein: right? If you really want to be good and successful, you've got to have
Bad Erik: Fair.
Jeff Hein: A bunch of them. And I would argue. you know, Hard work. is a talent I mean, there there are some people that can't get out of bed in the morning.
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: They're just naturally lazy. And I feel for those people. They have no energy. They just. it's almost like a medical problem I've met these people and I feel for them.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: m
Jeff Hein: That would suck.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'd say it's a psychological problem.
Jeff Hein: Right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Jeff Hein: Yeah, and or they just they live for the next vacation. They're they're not motivated by... by creating, and I don't even mean creating in an art way, by creating anything. It could be creating a good career as a banker.
Jeff Hein: or I mean, they're not motivated.
Bad Erik: Could be fucking cooking dinner, whatever it is.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, whatever. They don't have pride in the things they build or do.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: They just want to get the next time at the beach. It's just about relaxation. And. um So to me... That's part of the talent, just the energy to get up in the morning and push through another day when you know you're not the best.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jeff Hein: Right.
Bad Erik: that's That's an interesting argument.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, so I think it's just wider than that. But anyway, someone else.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, so... Let it be wide. Let your answers be wide.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So, Eric, let's start with you because you already started. What are your aptitudes and what? What what shortfalls did you make up for with effort?
Bad Erik: Okay. Um, I think my natural aptitudes are math and science. um They've always made sense to me. They're easy. And that's not to say that I was a good student or that I could have had a career in science.
Bad Erik: I don't mean to to degrade your career in any way, Paul. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're not degrading anything.
Bad Erik: But but but no, I think.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You'd be. a Eric. You'd be good at almost anything you tried.
Bad Erik: I... I think the logic of math and science. came very naturally to me i never had to to work that hard in either one of those fields um And so I think the way that that translated, Jeff, maybe to your point, the way that that translated in my career is um I did have to hustle and try to figure out how to convert creativity into a math problem so that I could understand it right through the elements and principles of design, addition and subtraction. um But also.
Bad Erik: because i work in a three -dimensional medium in a medium that is uh used and interact with interacted with on a daily basis. um the engineering of how to make a thing.
Bad Erik: like you you i fall very much in the camp of uh figure out what the thing should look like, design the thing, and then reverse engineer how you're going to get there. The reverse engineering is the easy part. The hard part is figuring out how to make a thing beautiful. So that's where the hustle comes in and just like.
Bad Erik: fuck everybody else. I'm going to figure out how to do this thing because I think it's the right way to do it. It might be the the slow boat to China, but... Fuck it. like that's that's where my magic lies is i'm just going to refuse to give up on the thing
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Jack.
Jack: I think... Well, guys, um i'm ah I'm a good artist, but I'm not a great artist. And I'm never going to be a great artist, and that's fine by me. For me, I think that my aptitude is...
Jack: I'm really good at figuring out how to do things. I'm good at teaching myself how to do things. I'm kind of an autodidact. But when you combine that with ADHD. You end up. figuring out how to do a lot of things.
Jack: Pretty well. But not. supremely. Well, not masterfully well. I'm also really wicked good at teaching. And like I've taught a lot of young people.
Jack: who have gone on to have careers that are already better. than mine could ever possibly be in in painting.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: in sculpture, in printmaking, in media that... I cannot master myself. But I'm good enough at figuring out how to. learn things and how to teach those things to other people. that they can outstrip anything that I could ever possibly do. The one exception to this is printmaking.
Jack: And. I think for me, the printmaking medium makes a lot of sense because... It's the perfect balance of art and science. To me, you have to really love tedium.
Jack: and process and experimentation.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, you do.
Jack: Like.
Jeff Hein: fuck
Jack: i I also, this this might be kind of weird, but... I have a really high aptitude for being alone.
Bad Erik: so
Jack: I like to be alone.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: I know Paul's like, fuck that.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, me too. I hate it.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fuck that. Put me in the crazy house.
Jack: I...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jack: Mm -mm. I love to be alone. I like hang hanging out with you guys and and being heard and seen on camera is like one of the only places I feel kind of comfortable being perceived. I prefer not to be perceived. I like to be alone. and if you If you're good at being alone,
Jack: and you're good at narrative storytelling and imagination and figuring things out like I am, then you can tell a lot of really great stories through really, really tedious, beautiful high process art.
Jack: So i think I think that's my aptitude.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: hu
Jeff Hein: Oh, that is a skill because I struggle with being alone.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: and I'll come in on the weekends and if no one is here at the Atelier and I have to paint alone. And all I need is someone breathing in the other room and it makes me feel better.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Jeff, I feel you.
Jeff Hein: But if I'm alone, I'm miserable.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff, I feel you, bro. Alright, Jeff.
Jeff Hein: Why is it some people are like that and some people aren't?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and Well, I...
Jeff Hein: I don't get it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: extra extrovert introvert scale that's one of the big five personality traits it's just
Bad Erik: Yep.
Bad Erik: Yep.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, but we grew up in societies.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Variability in the... human
Jeff Hein: like you You would think people like Jack would have evolved right out of the society, right out of...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's true. It's true.
Jeff Hein: The human race.
Jack: Thanks Jeff. I don't know.
Jeff Hein: Well, no, we evolution kept you because of that voice. That's why it kept you.
Jack: Hmm.
Bad Erik: That's what it is.
Jack: That's what it is. m
Jeff Hein: It's like no one no one would wipe you out once you said, please.
Bad Erik: Them golden pipes, baby.
Jack: Oh yeah.
Jeff Hein: Please don't hurt me.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright, Jeff, you're up.
Jeff Hein: Um... I... Well, I actually share a lot of a lot of what Jack said. Um, and And I got to say something about Eric's too.
Jeff Hein: Jack, I don't know your work. I got to look it up. i i I apologize.
Jack: Mmm.
Jeff Hein: I should have looked up your work before we started.
Jack: don't don't do it no don't do it No.
Jeff Hein: but Okay. I'm gonna.
Jack: No.
Jeff Hein: Anyway, but Eric, I think that it's funny when you were listing your talents, the whole time I'm thinking the only thing he's not listing. is the thing that's completely subjective and he couldn't possibly judge anyway.
Jeff Hein: and That is making something beautiful. You kept saying, I don't have a knack for making something beautiful. That's the only thing that's not measurable. How would you even know that?
Jack: Is it?
Jeff Hein: Do you know what I mean?
Jack: Not. Is this real?
Jeff Hein: Not really. It's somewhat subjective, don't you think? And not to get off on a tangent.
Bad Erik: No, please.
Jeff Hein: But.
Bad Erik: That's what we do best.
Jeff Hein: But go.
Jack: that That's not the tangent Jeff that's the episode.
Bad Erik: Hmm?
Jeff Hein: yeah That's a good point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This is the tangent of the tangent of the last tangent.
Jeff Hein: I'm trying to...
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: ah the The tangent brings us full circle. But I mean, how would you know? and Especially because artists, we all have that illness of self being self -deprecating. you know But if you think back to the greatest artists.
Jeff Hein: and furniture makers and sculptors i mean they're all art but you know, like Botticelli or Michelangelo. or Da Vinci, you know, the people everyone knows, right?
Jeff Hein: Where they could make furniture and design scaffoldings and build. tabernacles And. Like. And because they knew math and science. right And then they took that math and science and they made it into art.
Jeff Hein: And they use that math and science to figure out how to make things that were appealing to other people. To me, you just sound like. An artist. That just sounds like an artist to me. that
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: And I think when we lost math and science is when we started. you know doing the silly stuff When we we stopped thinking and we started just being quote unquote creative. and started just throwing paint around.
Jeff Hein: And we we left the science and math at the door.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff, I love that take. Jeff, I love that take so much.
Bad Erik: That's... it God damn it. wait You know that's the whole second half of this fucking episode.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Fuck the bad art again. We're just going to dive into that.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, that art.
Jeff Hein: yeah
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Another time.
Jeff Hein: ah
Bad Erik: All right, Jeff, you do have to answer the question though.
Jeff Hein: um Well, I'm... i Well, I'll tell you what my weak my biggest weakness is first. My memory is that of a slug. So after we get off of this episode, I want to forget the entire thing.
Jeff Hein: um It's so bad. Which is why I never would have been able to pass that test that gets you into a PhD. Because I can't remember anything. my worst My worst class in college was biology.
Jeff Hein: And I'm really good at science. I i rock i rock physics.
Jack: o
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jeff! How dare you?
Jeff Hein: and And physics, man, forget about it, but because I can understand it. And i don't forget I don't forget principles. I forget names. I forget definitions. I forget those things.
Jeff Hein: So when you put me and on a biology test and they're like, what's the name of blah, blah, blah? I'm like, oh, freak. I have no idea.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is it?
Jeff Hein: Ask me how it works.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it It's always mitochondria.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah ah
Bad Erik: That's awesome.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Powerhouse of the cell, baby.
Jeff Hein: But if you say if you ask me how it works. Or if you teach me how it works, I'll never forget it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Which is weird. I don't know how the brain... is so compartmentalized. But I'll never forget a principle. If you teach me a principle, that's one of my... aptitudes is i just don't forget a principle so I feel like that helped me to get I mean I've got a long way to go from where i am to where i want to be but it helped me at least get this far because if someone If I see something in a book or on a video or someone tells me, this is what you're doing wrong.
Jeff Hein: I generally don't make that mistake again. in my art. Um, the problem is finding the information that's the tricky part but And then I do have I think one of my skills is a work ethic.
Jeff Hein: my work ethic is mostly driven by fear of failure i think of not because I'm a sole provider for my family. I can't fail.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: You know, I got five people to take care of.
Bad Erik: Yeah, that hunger drives a lot of action, man.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Yeah. And so I don't know if that's an aptitude or if that's just a product of. taking the leap and having to make it work.
Bad Erik: but But hold on, don't don't downplay that because you were just talking about, and I don't disagree with you, the the people who even...
Jeff Hein: um
Bad Erik: even if they were in that situation, would struggle to get out of bed. They would struggle to be like, this situation's dog shit. And I don't know what I did to put us in this. And your response to that is.
Bad Erik: Fuck it. Like I got, I gotta go feed my kids. I gotta to go keep a roof over our head.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, maybe you're right.
Bad Erik: Like that is, that's an aptitude and that's admirable.
Jeff Hein: Yeah maybe you're right.
Bad Erik: I think.
Jeff Hein: Oh, thanks. um And then... um Yeah, I mean – I don't even know how to define it, but I guess i did it with the principle thing, I guess that relates to painting. It's just, it's...
Jeff Hein: Um, I was able to get through the university system and have. and build a career because. I noticed. i And I believe this is an aptitude. I notice the weaknesses of my teachers.
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: And I was able, like Eric was describing, I was able to. It's a little different than Eric was saying, but I was literally able to. Figure out what. What? by looking at their paintings and looking at John Singer Sargent's paintings are...
Jeff Hein: or Or someone else who I was looking at at the time, David LaFell or something. Go, wait a minute. I know these paintings are bad, or relatively bad, compared to... and i And I could. I was able to figure out what the differences were without instruction.
Jeff Hein: Right. By, like Eric said, is reverse engineering it. and And I've done that with other things, you know, woodworking and electrical and and um my sculpting and whatever. so Problem solving, I guess, is one of the aptitudes.
Bad Erik: yeah
Jeff Hein: um
Bad Erik: that's and That's a big part of our careers, man.
Jeff Hein: It is. And another weakness, though, is. um and And this isn't a joke because I know that I was a part of that episode too when I wasn't here. um Thank you, all three of you. But ADHD, it is a brutal.
Jeff Hein: and And Jack, I think it was you that said that you were laughing when we talked about me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well it's both.
Bad Erik: Preach.
Jeff Hein: You're like, yeah, Jeff, that's the guy. I saw it.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: You are not wrong. I i am so...
Jack: I knew from the first time I heard you on this podcast, I was like, i say that guy's got fucking ADHD, man.
Jeff Hein: Oh my gosh, I'm so distracted.
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: oh it's so bad i've never been diagnosed but i am so distracted That's a real weakness is distraction.
Bad Erik: Meanwhile... For any of the patrons who have the video access to this episode, just go back and watch the first five minutes again and watch Paul's eyes slowly get wider as he realized what he had done.
Jeff Hein: Wait what? I don't get it.
Bad Erik: Just three ADHD people talking overfall, immediately derailing every plan he possibly
Jack: This is...
Jeff Hein: Oh yeah!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
Jeff Hein: ah Why did I put them in the same show?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't...
Bad Erik: has.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric. Eric, thank you for even noticing because you're the only one who noticed.
Bad Erik: I know.
Jeff Hein: No, I noticed. I'd forgotten.
Bad Erik: It was beautiful.
Jeff Hein: And from my perspective, all of our images are on top of Paul and symbolically crushing his soul.
Bad Erik: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jack: Yep, me too, me too.
Bad Erik: Same, same.
Jack: Yep. Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're absolutely crushing me.
Bad Erik: Just weighing down on him.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Although...
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Ha ha! To be fair, Eric. Jeff, ADHD is like a blessing and a curse because when you find that thing that you love so much, you can drive down that road like a Ferrari at 300 miles an hour where a neurotypical would run out of gas.
Jeff Hein: It is.
Bad Erik: oh
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So it it really is a blessing and a curse.
Jeff Hein: No, but what if you love 10 things? Or, or... What if... You're in the middle of a backyard project that you have to finish. By a certain amount of time.
Jeff Hein: And then. And then you jackknife your trailer and dent your beautiful van that you spent two years on. So now you have to take three days to fix the dent in your van because you're too ADHD to leave it there.
Jeff Hein: Like, it's a problem.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ow!
Jeff Hein: Like I can't just walk away from this dent. I have a dent. I got to fix the freaking thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Jeff Hein: ah it's ah It's a problem.
Bad Erik: Oh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, fair.
Bad Erik: All right, Paul, you also got to answer the question.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fair. Ugh. Guys, guys, what?
Jack: And then keep us on track.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Holy shit.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Hey, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Okay.
Bad Erik: We're doing great.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Jeff Hein: thank
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So my aptitudes, math and science, Eric, I'm with you. I knew from a very early age that math and science just made sense to me. It came easy. ah Jeff, the way you said.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Certain things came. just easy to you and and your son.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They just come easy and you're lucky to find those things. Second thing. Focus. i am I am the opposite. I am almost...
Jack: what
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: probably too far on the ah opposite scale of ADHD. I am like the...
Bad Erik: I'm shocked.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Like I. probably focus almost too much to the point that things are burning down around me. And I'm like, I don't even notice. I'm like, do you smell something? This is fine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: know, like when the fire is behind you.
Jeff Hein: ah' I'm envious.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. So tedium to me, it's invisible. Like tedium, like. I can do tedium. like hours and hours and hours to the point that my neck is cramping.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And now I have vertigo in my ear because my neck cramp because I was doing it for too long. All right. So focus in math and science. So that's why I'm a career scientist. I knew that that was my calling.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And and to your point, Jeff, about follow your skill. Like that was both my skill and my passion. I'm lucky because i and I think it's very it's super interesting and it is totally my skill set.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that's why I love it. The third thing I've identified that. I gravitate towards inter a multidisciplinary. ah approaches. So I like to mix the streams. I like to cross the stream. So in my science life, I cross the stream.
Jeff Hein: You guys have so many inside jokes, I can't keep up.
Jack: I'm sorry
Bad Erik: It's fine. ah
Jeff Hein: What is happening right now?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I missed it.
Jack: No, cro don't cross the stream.
Bad Erik: No, it's fine. No Don't worry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, Jesus.
Bad Erik: It's lost on these clowns.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh my god.
Jeff Hein: Oh no!
Bad Erik: thank you thank you for being right here jack i appreciate you buddy
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I can't say anything.
Jack: I'm so sorry. I got you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You cannot say anything.
Jeff Hein: A sword fight.
Jack: I got you, bud. No sword fighting.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh my god. There will be no sword fighting and no.
Jack: it's
Jeff Hein: What have you done, Paul?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Okay, so multidisciplinary approaches are my jam. ah You too, fucking children.
Jeff Hein: Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: It's not our fault, it's yours, if you think about it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Cross the streams. um
Jeff Hein: Yeah, that was weird.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So in my science life, I. I merge. Oh my god.
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Let's just end the episode now.
Bad Erik: Hey, hey.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's over.
Bad Erik: Hey.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's over.
Bad Erik: You know, you know who?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's over. jack cany Jack's about to spit out a whole mouthful of something or other.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: You know?
Bad Erik: You know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't even know what's...
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: You know who has a natural aptitude for manliness? no Our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle.
Jeff Hein: Oh brother.
Bad Erik: Let me tell you. So we're talking about aptitude.
Jeff Hein: hey
Bad Erik: We're talking about hard work. Okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: This motherfucker, here's what I'm going to say about him. Here's what I'm going to say about him. I showed up at his joint ah this morning.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: About 7 a .m. to pick up a trailer and he was already there. He was he was there. He had been working for like three fucking hours like this motherfucker. Just he rides. OK.
Jeff Hein: laughing too much. I gotta take my shirt off.
Bad Erik: Ah. Oh, oh.
Jeff Hein: it's getting hot Just kidding.
Bad Erik: Sexiest ad read this side of the Mississippi.
Jeff Hein: It's getting. Yeah, right.
Bad Erik: Okay. Wow. Listen, I'm going to tell you some basic facts about William Teresa Burkle and WCB Woodworking.
Jeff Hein: Okay. Okay.
Bad Erik: Tomorrow, not that this will come out ah before you can. understand that the second year anniversary celebration is tomorrow but uh if you were going you can reminisce in the comments about how wonderful it was.
Bad Erik: I will say this. Bill is a wonderful fucking human being. go support his business. That's all I have to say. ah There's slabs off in store, 50 % off slabs in store, 10 % off rough saw boards. ah There's a $500 gift card of some kind happening.
Bad Erik: And Craig has some shit there. That's all. That's all I got to say. 390 Pike Road, Huntington Valley. uh pennsylvania Good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
Bad Erik: average Thanks for contributing, Paul. Appreciate you, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: I don't know.
Jeff Hein: Yeah. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well... I didn't realize that ad read is going to come in the middle of my answer.
Bad Erik: ah You said end the episode.
Jeff Hein: Was that an ad read? It seems so.
Bad Erik: Pew.
Jeff Hein: Relevant.
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Back. Back to...
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: the Back to it. So math and science. ah ability to focus, multidisciplinary, crossing the streams, you two children. and And then engineering like that, that all that shit all comes easy to me. It doesn't come easy to me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is raw. artistic Ability. Like, I just can't just draw something. Like you say, oh hey, draw ah ah like a Japanese dragon.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It would look so jacked up. It would look so bad. Like I just couldn't, I just can't.
Jeff Hein: ah see i don't agree with you
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't have it, Jeff.
Jeff Hein: No, I don't believe you
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't. I try. ah Jeff, I try and I try and I try and I fail.
Jeff Hein: No, you tried it without training.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah i don't have Yeah, it's true. I don't have any training, but like... It's not in me.
Jeff Hein: That's like... Well, I i mean, i like you could be right. But it it would be like if you go to the Amazon. where they've never seen any sports.
Jeff Hein: any Western sports at all. And. There may be. there if of a of a tribe of 100 people there may be 10 of them that are incredibly athletic but you hand him a basketball what are they going to do with it Nothing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Kick it. Yeah.
Jeff Hein: They're going to kick it. they're gonna I don't know what they're going to do with it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, I probably could get it.
Jeff Hein: then and and you might say And you might say, oh my gosh, none of these people have any basketball talent at all.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe.
Jeff Hein: Well, they've never even they have no experience. They don't even understand the rules. But if you've got math and science talent and then you know the rules, it is a math and a science.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fair.
Jeff Hein: in a way
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean maybe. You might be right. And I haven't i haven't tried.
Jeff Hein: i want I want to teach you some lessons just so I can see if I'm right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, my God. I want you to teach me some lessons.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The new enrollee at the Atelier who's going to be triaged in.
Jeff Hein: yeah i'm serious this is a good experiment
Bad Erik: laughs
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: in i Two years on on on ah project number one. Okay.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um So you might notice a lot of my work, there's a lot of process and engineering to it. Like I figure things out using technology. Like I use the laser and the CNC in like new and innovative ways and try to make things beautiful.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But I also do hand tools. So I'm not. tied to technology but you might notice there's a lot of math science engineering project management that underlie my ability to make things that I think are beautiful.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think I have a pretty decent eye.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like, i I know what looks good. I can look at something instantly and be like, no, no, no, no. That looks dog shit. And here's why. So I think I'm lucky that I can tell what looks dog shit, but I do struggle on that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: raw. Just some people, I swear, you just give them a. like a ballpoint pen and they can just. draw what they see. That is not me.
Bad Erik: Some people.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I've tried.
Jeff Hein: oh
Bad Erik: Some people just have it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I fail. Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't have that skill.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I have other skills. so We all have to like, you know. move our woodworking.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: or Sorry, our our art, and not wordworking, but we we have to move our pursuits into play to our strengths. And then perhaps, Jeff, your point is well taken. Learn. learn some rules around our deficits.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Ah.
Bad Erik: I don't know what you're talking about
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In full disclosure, I just hit the... I just hit the pause button on the recording and we just had a 20 minute chat. Well, maybe 10 minute chat about what the hell to do, because the conversation has gone everywhere except to the topic we promised you. So this is what we're going to do.
Jeff Hein: It felt more like the three of us got grounded by Paul.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're going to summarize.
Jeff Hein: That's what it felt like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah But. But it was great conversation. So so so Daddy Paul couldn't really come down too hard because it was amazing conversation.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: Daddy Paul.
Jeff Hein: Hmph.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I would never I would never, you know. not have that. so Where are we? so We covered the idea. of What Jeff Hates.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and how it illuminates like his underlying value system And we've already done that for the three of us in the last episode.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Then we started talking about. Do you really have it? aptitudes. What? what
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: what really are your aptitudes where do your true like inherent abilities lie and where do you have to pony up just hard work grit and determination to learn it and maybe we haven't even tried you know Jeff brought up a wonderful point. like Paul, maybe maybe if you tried, you could draw things. And you know what, Jeff? Maybe you're right. I haven't i haven't tried. That's a great point. And so I would ask the listeners.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As a form of summary of this episode. What are your... aptitudes that you've been able to identify? You probably haven't thought about it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We don't think about this very often. It's kind of, you know, cause we're like, oh, you know, it's so, ah you know, maybe it's vain or.
Jeff Hein: m
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah ah you know, not modest. But. We all do have aptitudes. So I would ask you, what are your aptitudes? What are the areas you fail at? what or maybe not fail at but what are your limit what do you feel limited in Have you pushed on those limited areas with learning, with classes?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Um. Have you been able to muscle your way through them? Is that just in your hobby? Is that in your art or is that in your career or both? Like there's there's some interplay, whether you save the things that you're really good at for your career. or And you then, oh, I'm not so good at it, but I enjoy it for your hobby. Or have you done versus vice versa? There's some questions to that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I would encourage listeners to think about that just because I think it's a very interesting thought experiment. Any episode. of this podcast that I can walk away from with food for thought.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As I love to say. in my mind, is the most successful episode because I chew on these episodes. all month long after we record them.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now, Jeff doesn't because he forgets them.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The minute he leaves, I'm just joking, Jeff.
Jeff Hein: Yeah. No, I didn't need you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but ah But. um Anyway, if if this if this episode, I know it was chaotic, but I think there were so many gems in here from so many amazing. artists, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and and And people who struggle with things and who are vulnerable and authentic enough to say these things out loud, right? For all of us to listen to what we're good at, what we're not good at, insecurities.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: um if If this brings up some things that help you. Think about your own life. Then we did our job. All right. So. We'll stick a pin in that episode. And now we're going to turn.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: towards the idea Of that art. Finally. I know you waited. You waited fucking three.
Bad Erik: 61 minutes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know. No, but add the previous episode.
Bad Erik: Yeah. yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like an hour and a half of waiting plus 61 minutes of waiting. right ah What do we have? Two and a half hours of waiting. of the idea of Does. Making.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bad art. Teach us something. What do we learn? uh about if If we make that art. What do we learn? Is there something instructive there for us? And Jack, I'm going to ask you to kind of lay the groundwork for this.
Jack: Okay, so... When I was still a college professor, full time. I used to assign a bad art assignment. and the whole point of the assignment.
Jack: was Imagine. To imagine. the absolute worst. Fucking. dog shit piece of art you can imagine not a real piece of art not one you've seen before but in your mind's eye Imagine the absolute worst piece of art you can imagine.
Jack: And then... go and apply your actual Craftsmanship to making. that piece of art. And maybe part of what makes it bad is bad craftsmanship. If so, lean into it, whatever it is.
Jack: Imagine it in your mind's eye in great detail. And if there's a time element because it's a performance -based piece of art, imagine it.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: And then you actually have to. Write it down in detail, plan it out, start making a sketch just like you would do to prepare for making a good piece of art, and then go and actually make the dog shit art.
Jack: The reason for this is is multifold and I almost hate to I almost hate to describe the deeper meanings behind it because It's sort of. undermines the point of the assignment.
Jack: If you don't go make it first. And I've actually assigned this to a couple of. Woodworking is bullshit. Listeners. who have gotten a lot out of it. And I've even had some one -on -one like Zoom call conversations with these listeners.
Jack: where we look at the art we go over the art we talk about what it means and what they learned from it what they gathered from it and it's a really powerful assignment it might undermine the power of it a little bit to sort of discuss the the nuances of why it's important. but I think.
Jack: I think I could say... Without giving too much away. that you'll learn a lot about what you hate about yourself. and about your own shortcomings.
Jack: and about your own aptitudes and where you still have room to grow. If you really lean in and dedicate yourself to the assignment.
Bad Erik: Jack, can I ask a question?
Jack: Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: I didn't go to art school. Paul, you didn't go to art school. the The way that you just described it. I... I could articulate to you what I imagined in my head, but my question is about.
Bad Erik: If you... write out the plan if you you go through the process of making the thing are you trying to make the best version of the bad art thing you have in your head or are you trying to make Like.
Bad Erik: the thing the most basic version maybe the reason that you hate it you know Are you trying to bring that to life?
Jack: It depends.
Bad Erik: yeah Yeah. Does that make sense, the distinction I'm trying to make?
Jack: it does it does
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: It does. like Okay, so for instance, When I made this assignment, And i'll'll i'll share I'll share with you guys, if I can find a picture of it, I'll share with you guys when this was assigned to me.
Jack: originally what I made, but I'll describe it for listen for listeners. so I went to the Dollar Tree. And I bought the shittiest little like plastic resin frame I could find.
Jack: And then I got this like really cheap, shiny wrapping paper that had badly drawn patterns of tigers on it. And I framed that. And then I bedazzled it.
Jack: And then. on the On top of the wrapping paper.
Bad Erik: jeffs Jeff's loving this.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We just lost Jeff.
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: The dazzled part.
Jack: on Oh it gets better.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Jack: It gets better.
Jeff Hein: Right.
Jack: On top of the patterned tiger wrapping paper,
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: i I painted in shitty, like shitty dime store acrylic paint. I painted, God loves a sassy woman. Go dogs.
Bad Erik: You know what? Can't argue either of those points.
Jeff Hein: i Oh my gosh. I don't, I personally think that That. is a skill to make that bad of art.
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: How did you come up with that? That's brilliant. It's brilliantly bad.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: twilights
Jeff Hein: Yeah. no i'm not saying it's good art i'm saying it takes some level of creativity to come up with something so stupid
Bad Erik: it's It's so bad it feels like satire, right?
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: Yeah, well, i'm sorry, i'm just I'm just that good, guys. I don't know what to tell you. But...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When did you... Jack, what did that teach? Jack, two questions. What did that teach you? And what have you seen it teach your students?
Jack: Okay, so for me, what the assignment taught me is that I'm an elitist bastard.
Bad Erik: We knew that, though.
Jack: So that was...
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Bad Erik: You know?
Jack: We all knew that.
Jeff Hein: Oh man.
Jack: we all but But at the time, I didn't. Like I.
Bad Erik: laughter
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh ho ho!
Jack: I didn't. I didn't know. I thought, I thought I just, I i have, I have not exceptionally good taste, but I just have. maybe slightly better than average taste, taste that's not even as good as the rest of my cohort. You know, like I'm Eric, I'm like you. I'm like, I'm i'm not.
Jack: I'm not coming from a place of a ton of natural talent. like My natural talent lies in... Good ideas. storytelling, being really fucking hardworking. enjoying my solitude and being able to figure out how to make fucking anything. But the problem when you can figure out how to make anything.
Jack: is that you don't always develop your own voice. Like you are, you, you, you'd have a tendency to copy.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: You know, like not outright, but you're so easily influenced because you can make anything and you see what's good. And maybe you're a people pleaser like myself. So...
Jack: Making this art. taught me Okay, first things first thing to realize is that I'm an elitist bastard. Like, I have very specific ideas of what good taste constitutes, and none of it is that. The second thing is...
Jack: No offense to Duchamp. but I'm not into ready -mades of any kind. I don't like to buy anything ready -made. I don't like to incorporate anything that somebody else has made. Like I like making my own. painting pigment.
Jack: You know, I
Bad Erik: can you Can you articulate that ah in a different way for for those?
Jeff Hein: You gave Duchamp too much credit.
Bad Erik: Well, so I know Duchamp, right?
Jeff Hein: Cheers, bye.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Bad Erik: Like, this this is...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't.
Bad Erik: This is ah not a pipe.
Jack: Mm.
Bad Erik: Right? That guy?
Jeff Hein: No, he did he's famous for the urinal that he signed.
Jack: Uh...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: who
Jack: The urinal, the urinal.
Bad Erik: but But didn't he also do the pipe or am I thinking of somebody else?
Jeff Hein: I don't know. I stopped listening at the urinal.
Jack: Uh...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, he signed a urinal.
Bad Erik: The painting of a pipe.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, just a found urinal
Jack: so yeah so base so basically no so ah the the the ccd is probably on peep this is not a pipe is renee my greet right
Bad Erik: Okay, okay.
Jack: um And but like. Like do shop is most famous for taking a urinal. And signing it. And he he kicked off this idea of the readymades like as incorporating these found objects and simply claiming them and saying that their art and putting their place like it's about placement and message.
Jack: Right. And just say that's, you know.
Bad Erik: It's about being a con man.
Jack: I. I didn't say that. I didn't say that.
Bad Erik: No, that's fine. I'll say it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: eric Eric said that.
Bad Erik: It's fine. Yeah, I'll go out on a limb.
Jack: Thank you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jack: Thank you. thank you So, ah you know, so it's like it's like it's like, you know, but banana guy slapped with a banana on the wall on the duct tape.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: Right. That pisses me off so much. Right. and what And Jeff, to your point from earlier, like what pissed me off so much about the the banana thing, which I think is called the comedian. Right. Is is like it's just that people somebody paid so much fucking money for it and it was legitimized.
Jack: You know, like that's part of the, you know, so for me, like ready -made things. things that feel like they have mainstream taste. And things that are like. pop culture reference -y, like, you know, go dogs. And I'm virtue signaling my sassy woman -ness like, like art, art.
Jack: art that's about virtue signaling and i gotta tread real lightly here dog like
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: I get myself, get go dogs.
Bad Erik: Go Dawgs.
Jack: I get myself in a lot of trouble for this. but I do not think that a lot of activist art is art. Like... and And I get up.
Bad Erik: Don't leave that hanging out there.
Jeff Hein: Act. Activist art, activist art.
Bad Erik: Say more about that.
Jack: I... i get a lot of I get a lot of shit for this.
Bad Erik: oh
Jack: I i think it is a... the The word propaganda has a negative connotation, so I won't use the word propaganda either. But like.
Jeff Hein: I think you just did.
Jack: If you are just... what
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was gonna say.
Jack: Jeff?
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that I was going to say that. She just did.
Jack: Jeff, goddammit!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it's to
Jeff Hein: Oh, I'm sorry.
Jack: You're, you're...
Jeff Hein: The audience never would have noticed.
Jack: You're supposed to... You're supposed to let me get away with that.
Jeff Hein: Oh sorry, sorry.
Jack: You're supposed to let me just gloss over it.
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: like
Jeff Hein: Dang it.
Jack: Like. i I think that there's a lot of craftsmanship. a lot of excellent skill that goes into making art that is inherently like activist art where it's like i'm giving you this political message there's a very clear message that i want to i want you to feel this right feel this think this I'm putting this out here and calling it art. I'm not saying it's not art.
Jack: I'm just saying it's that for me. it's not fulfilling all of the things that i want good art to fulfill there's no space for me
Jeff Hein: What's an example of activist art?
Jack: Uh...
Jeff Hein: Not to put you on the spot, but I genuinely am trying to picture something.
Jack: Yeah, yeah Hmm. let me to To remove it from our own time period, to to diffuse any potential hurt feelings, let let me say...
Jeff Hein: Right, right.
Jack: Okay. There's a lot of really I i love so I love screen printing. I love like very highly, highly graphic stylized kind of, you know, two dimensional art like.
Jeff Hein: Mm hmm.
Jack: There's a lot of really great... um ah Soviet screen printed posters that are about like you know championing a specific culture cultural movement or political movement They're dope.
Bad Erik: That's true. Yeah.
Jack: Like they're some of the best examples of design I've ever seen.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: But they're telling you what to think, what to believe, how to think it, how to believe it. And they're trying to. sway your mind in a way that leaves no space for your own interpretation or conversation with the piece. It is like...
Jack: it's It's a newspaper, basically, you know, it's like. It's reporting something.
Jeff Hein: I'm not defending.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: this kind of art at all.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: but A thought comes to mind. By that definition. Isn't everything kind of... Um... Oh, I can't even think of the word. um What did you call?
Bad Erik: Propaganda?
Jeff Hein: propaganda art i mean isn't everything activist art i mean if it has a message
Jack: Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: at all. Or a story or... um um some kind of ideal that it's sharing or whatever, doesn't it? fall into the same category.
Jack: I don't think so. I don't think so.
Jeff Hein: No.
Jack: I don't look i i don't look at your work. Or.
Jeff Hein: Because I'm painting Jesus.
Jack: Salvador Dali's work, or...
Jeff Hein: Is that not propaganda?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is that religious propaganda, Jeff?
Jack: No, and I...
Bad Erik: oh
Jack: i'm i'm not I'm not even Christian and I like your work. jeff You know, like.
Jeff Hein: Well, that's nice of you to say. but
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: But I mean, I mean that not not because I'm like digging like, oh, what? I'm a propaganda artist.
Jack: Mhm.
Jeff Hein: No, it's because. I mean it seems like a fine line. I mean...
Jack: It is.
Jeff Hein: if because the gut you know i like i've interviewed a bunch of russian artists um on my podcast
Jack: It is.
Jack: Wait, no! Nope. Paul made the face. Paul made the face.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Guys, what on earth?
Jack: We got to get back on. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, where are we?
Bad Erik: We're doing it again.
Jeff Hein: No, no, no.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're talking about.
Jeff Hein: this had This is related. This is related.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're talking about Russian propaganda art.
Jack: laughter
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It was supposed to be. bad art and will we
Jack: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Learn from it.
Jack: Okay, I'm bringing it back. I'm bringing it back.
Jeff Hein: No, it is bad art.
Jack: Here's what... so So the bad art assignment.
Jeff Hein: Okay anyway go ahead.
Jack: What the bad art assignment taught me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah god
Jack: is that I i don't like ready -made things. I don't like materials that are masquerading as other materials, like this this this resin frame that's supposed to be made to look like wood.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Jack: And I don't like something that has a. text specifically a text -based message that's shoving a message down your throat.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: okay
Bad Erik: If you got to say it, then you didn't say it well kind of thing.
Jeff Hein: I agree with everything you're saying.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, if you have to literally say it and i I screen I screen print a lot of things that have text on them, you know, like not so much anymore, but I but I used to.
Jeff Hein: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright. Jack, your premise is that bad art is useful.
Jack: So.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: as an exercise to teach us, right?
Jack: Bat, yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right
Jack: Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is that Is that really the summary of of what?
Jeff Hein: But how? How does it teach us?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, well... Okay, yeah, Jack, please respond.
Jack: Yeah, I i think that bad arts usefulness... is at least in part in teaching us. it's kind of like the conversation about aptitude, right? Like things that we're good at and things that we're not good at. Sometimes the things we hate.
Jack: we need to tread a little more lightly on hating them. And maybe realize where they could have value to us. And also, sometimes they can teach you that sometimes the problem is you.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: Like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ooh.
Jack: I... I'm a little, I was too much of an of an elitist bastard, you know, when i when I didn't really realize it.
Jeff Hein: Interesting.
Jack: And when I kind of loosened the strings a little bit. And. and said, Okay. I grew up super poor. Like so poor. That even middle brow taste was was out of reach for me.
Jack: And I have spent so long rejecting that history that I distance myself from anything that feels remotely suburban. remotely consumer grade. And by doing so,
Jack: I might actually be doing a disservice. to people that I could... Reach with my art. People who I could... sort of communicate stories and ideas to with my art because I'm so far up here in the fucking ivory tower.
Jack: that I can't even see below the clouds to the ground. you know
Jeff Hein: It's interesting you bring up clouds, though.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see.
Jeff Hein: because So what you're saying is that this taught you that... painting paintings like NASCAR Thunder is a good thing to aspire to.
Jack: Mmm. See, here's here's one of the things about NASCAR Thunder.
Jeff Hein: ah
Jack: And I'm i'm and i'm going to tell you guys full circle, baby, full just like NASCAR, full circle.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Full circle.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Just...
Jeff Hein: Yeah. Heh heh. ah
Jack: Hundreds of times, full circle.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yeah, just like we've been circling this episode.
Jack: um Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to tell you I'm going to make an admission here. I'm going to make an admission here. I can't believe I'm saying this. on a recording that will be around for posterity. I do hate Thomas Kinkade. But...
Jeff Hein: His art.
Jack: I'm a little, um ah yeah yeah, as a person, I never knew him.
Jeff Hein: You never met him, yeah.
Jack: yeah but Never met him. Thank God. but But. I'm... I'm actually a little jealous. Because... I can't. Paint that. well.
Jack: Like.
Bad Erik: Well, yeah, he's a good painter, even if his painting is...
Jack: wit And that's the fucking problem like
Bad Erik: Fucking useless.
Jack: It's... Okay. Yeah. Okay. Useless. Interesting. Put a pin in that. But like. I look at that and I'm just like, ah it it takes me.
Jeff Hein: hey
Jack: I had to take such great pains to translate. What I see. Two. the canvas or the page. Like that is not naturally occurring to me. And it it it reminds me of like.
Jack: i I used to sing in a jazz band. And I've never had any formal musical training. I've just got these six sick pipes.
Bad Erik: so
Jack: And.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wow
Jeff Hein: Yeah, that I got to hear that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Aptitude. Aptitude.
Jack: And... with With zero effort.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jack: And I remember I got into a massive fucking fight in college with this singer who had been training her entire life. And like she just wasn't that fucking good. you know And i just I walk in and I like bust it out or whatever.
Jack: And and I'm like... is this is this how thomas kinkade feels like you know like he's just walking up there to the mic and just you know this who who this fucking jeff hein guy just walks up slap something on a canvas it's fucking perfect you know and i'm like i'm trying so goddamn hard and it's still just not that good You know?
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Bad Erik: Here, it I would...
Jeff Hein: Huh. huh
Bad Erik: Maybe I'm going to be a dick real quick, but I would I would say.
Jack: Do it.
Bad Erik: that It's not the same because Thomas Kinkade chose to work. to an audience that's like this fucking big. You know, like the Christian audience that wants to believe that the world is idyllic and a lit cottage in the woods.
Jeff Hein: i don't know man his audience is huge he's the highest paid painter of all time
Jack: It's huge man. Yeah.
Bad Erik: Is he?
Jack: it's It's true.
Bad Erik: writ Is that true? Well, fuck me.
Jack: It's true.
Bad Erik: I don't know shit about fuck. Okay, carry on.
Jeff Hein: No, he appealed to the masses big time, big time.
Bad Erik: so
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: The masses love his work.
Bad Erik: No shit.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, yeah.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: half Half of everyone I knew had ah had a Thomas Kinkade print in their house right by a bowl of potpourri, swear to God.
Jeff Hein: Oh yeah. He's huge.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Alright. I, I...
Bad Erik: I don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. I can speak to this because I'm not from the painting world.
Bad Erik: Because you have a Thomas Kinkade.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm not. No, I do not.
Jack: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But I'm but. But I remember the first time I saw it. And I remember thinking. it it it it It conjures up a feeling in me of comfort and family and happiness.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When you see that little cottage lit in the woods, when the light is kind of streaming out of the windows, it's it's as if you're at the 10 ,000 view.
Bad Erik: You basic bitch motherfucker.
Jack: So basic.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah No, no, I'm just, look, you can.
Jeff Hein: No, it's real though
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I...
Bad Erik: I know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You could absolutely crucify me.
Jack: it's It's right. He's right, though. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah like Like I've spent most of my life in the ivory tower and I'm okay with being honest and being like the first time I saw it, I was like, it conjures feelings of wellbeing.
Bad Erik: Sure. Yeah, that's what he does really well.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It just does.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: There's no taking that away from them.
Jeff Hein: Okay. This is a segue.
Bad Erik: It feels safe.
Jeff Hein: This is a segue I need. And this is not an ad read. I have much more class than that. but
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Praise be.
Jeff Hein: ah
Bad Erik: Carry on.
Jeff Hein: No, but. You know, what you guys were talking about Rothko in the last episode. I think the thing that... he's tapped into that Kincaid has tapped into is just an innate.
Jeff Hein: human. our our human experience of just, we crave a warm home, fireplace, family. comfortable relationships, you know.
Jeff Hein: beautiful weather all these things he puts in to these paintings because he knows that they're They're going to charge us emotionally. Right. I would argue. that that is the exact same device that people like Rothko are using because color in and of itself has power.
Jeff Hein: Right?
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: You don't have to be a genius to slap down.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: a field of red. knowing that red has certain emotional implications. they and but So what? It does. It just does. You could pour it on. You could brush it on.
Jeff Hein: You could piss it on. It doesn't matter. Red will drive certain emotions and so will blue and yellow and everything else. So... can kay in In my opinion, those two artists are using the same devices.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jeff Hein: in a way
Jack: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: they're They're using... certain devices and tools that they know will evoke emotion. and in and And in some ways, skirting. the art making By artificially. um you know stirring up emotions in the viewer.
Jack: You know, here's here's where...
Jeff Hein: And.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So the art. Wait.
Jack: Let's just hear it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So the art doesn't have to be excellent, Jeff.
Jack: here
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It just if you stir up enough emotion in your viewer.
Jeff Hein: No, quite the opposite.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like it the art doesn't have to be excellent.
Jeff Hein: No, no, no, that's not what I'm saying.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It just has to move the person.
Jeff Hein: I'm saying the opposite.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, sorry
Jeff Hein: I'm saying this is my argument. so Like when I walk into a museum and I see a Barnett Newman or a or a um or a Rothko or a Motherwell or something that's these big fields of color.
Jeff Hein: And in in the right room, it's just beautiful. But because color is beautiful. Color is beautiful. Like you don't. it's in and And they're resting they're and the their entire...
Jeff Hein: product on just simply color that we're innately programmed to have an emotional response to. Thomas Kinkade is doing the same thing with cultural things.
Jeff Hein: things that culturally we're drawn to. Like if he was selling to... people in China or or ancient Africa or something, it might be a totally different scene he needs to paint in order to kind of milk those cultural emotions, right?
Jeff Hein: So what I'm saying... is on both counts. you're High praise. blue chip Rothko artist or your middle class.
Jeff Hein: Um, Thomas Kinkade. They're both doing the same thing. They're taking devices that they know work on people's emotions and they're putting them into their paintings and avoiding have to do having to do complex things.
Jeff Hein: right It's a simple solution.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: and And yet. they're paid enormously for it. Thomas Kinkade is paid enormously by the public. and the general public. by selling mass. like quantities.
Jeff Hein: And Rothko. it like Well, he's not being paid that much. He's dead, but... the the people who are selling and reselling his work are making a profit off of his elitist Um...
Jeff Hein: Um... I can't think of the word. is his he's got this elitist reputation this that he's one of the greats he's he's high among the the elite you know or respected among the elite
Bad Erik: I...
Jeff Hein: And he's so he.
Bad Erik: I have to admit.
Jack: It's all...
Bad Erik: that i hate that that is the best off defense of thomas kincaid i've ever heard in my life
Jack: ah
Jeff Hein: Well, and again, it's not a defense.
Jack: You know, Jeff.
Jeff Hein: I think great art Doesn't need to... Grab the low hanging fruit. Right?
Jack: I think that... um Okay. All right, I'm going to lay down a gauntlet. here and i'm just gonna tell you guys What I think makes. Good art.
Jack: Now we've talked about, and in past episodes, we've talked about craftsmanship. You know, all of all of these things. Assuming that craftsmanship and is present. Assuming that k craft's fine, good craftsmanship is present.
Jack: Here is what I think for me. distinguishes good art from bad art and this is why i like rothko but i hate what Rotho has become. since his death.
Jeff Hein: Oh, see, we actually agree. yeah A lot.
Jack: So for me, the gauntlet is this.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: I think. That no art can be good? when there is no longing. that is present. And in all of y 'all's work, and it it's actually a little too personal.
Jack: I don't think I'm going to tell you what I think.
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Jack: in this episode. But I think that all of you have... A very specific and obvious to me. Longing. for something. in your work. I think that I have longing. in my best work my shittiest work and there's a lot of it lacks longing.
Jack: it's It's imitative. It's... ah it's It's trying to be sold. Right. There's no... There's no pining. There's no longing. There's no desire.
Jack: In it. And.
Bad Erik: oh
Jack: Like, i think that's I think that Thomas Kinkade... Maybe the longing for him. It has become commercialized. But he is so popular, I think, in part because of the longing.
Jack: that is evoked through his work.
Jeff Hein: Wait, so... That's an argument. Hmm. and That his work is good, though. I thought you didn't like his work.
Jack: It's an argument. I don't like his work. I do not have longing for what he's depicting in his work.
Jeff Hein: Oh.
Jack: I think that it is made without longing now, but I think that. other people find something in it that they want that they deeply desire and in all of y 'all's work i see longing in the way it's made and i think that the work that stands the test of time
Jeff Hein: So it does.
Jack: has longing in it when it's made by the artist. And I think that's true for Rothko as well. And when I look at Rothko, I see. I see. Solitude.
Jack: I see the sublime. I see this. sense of Something that is so much greater. than oneself and this desire to connect to it and be consumed in it.
Jack: to be subsumed by it. And to me, That is what makes it so. fucking good to me.
Jeff Hein: Really?
Jack: But I... Yeah, but I think that if you if you can't relate to that. Not you personally, but the if the royal you can't relate to that. then you would think it's shit. And that a lot of people who buy Rothko Works Now, Rothko Works Now.
Jeff Hein: Oh yeah.
Jack: They don't necessarily feel that. It's just virtue signaling and status signaling at this point. And i that makes me mad.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Can I show my ass for a second?
Jack: Yet.
Bad Erik: Um, I love. I do. I like to shit on Thomas Kinkade. And I think that's probably a cultural thing, like coming out of the. the um you know. Bleh.
Bad Erik: Christian line of thinking, having a degree in in ah the Bible and whatnot. Um, I have come to process Thomas Kinkade as a person who paints. a sterile perfection and not the world in which we live.
Bad Erik: um but I have been persuaded by Jeff's argument. And listening to your argument. Um, Jack. about Everything you just said, I was like, particularly the art that stands the test of time has to have a longing in it. um i was I was thinking about other artists and other mediums.
Bad Erik: or media that that tend to get shit on nowadays. And I was thinking of Longfellow. You know, the poet.
Jack: love long I love Longfellow.
Jeff Hein: Oh yeah.
Bad Erik: um henry henry wandsworth i fuck see and this is maybe where i'm showing my ass i fucking adore longfellow
Jack: mm -hmm
Bad Erik: And he gets shit on his like. the pop artist of his time. But he was massively successful. And he he spoke to the audience of American society in the late 1800s. And you read his work and you're like, okay, I can see it. He stuck.
Bad Erik: to to a uh a box. he He played within a box and that that box worked. It was always in in meter and it it always rhymed and he painted such a beautiful picture, but there is a sterility to it. If and and this is where I show my own ass, like there's a sterility to it. He's showing the the the.
Bad Erik: the dream, the perfection as it might be, which maybe is what Thomas Kinkade is doing. Like maybe he's doing that really well. He's showing. the people the thing that they want to see, Jeff, to your point, rather than the thing the way it is, which is can be difficult to swallow.
Jeff Hein: Yeah. and and Yeah, it's funny. That I've convinced you of something. I don't think I was intending to convince you of but um I'm not making very... Good points, but...
Jeff Hein: I got to ask you, Jack, so i want I want to... Is it okay if I ask her question? I feel like I'm stepping on Paul here. Okay.
Bad Erik: paul Paul checked out 90 minutes ago.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: go
Bad Erik: It's fine.
Jack: Paul's like.
Jeff Hein: So...
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jack: Bye guys.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: which
Jeff Hein: Jack.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm bad art. Fuck it. Like, who cares about topics? Thanks.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: No, we're talking about bad art. So.
Jack: a
Jeff Hein: if you okay when i walk into a room full of um these artists like Roth Cohen.
Jack: Did Paul just literally leave?
Jeff Hein: And...
Jack: Oh, I'm sorry.
Bad Erik: Oh no, he's back.
Jeff Hein: No.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: Okay.
Jeff Hein: um Joseph Albers, are you familiar with him?
Jack: Mm -hmm.
Jeff Hein: Another field painter? Yeah, okay.
Jack: Yep.
Jeff Hein: I like all this stuff. Okay, I mean, it's beautiful in the right space. but I think I might have said this in the comments, so forgive me, but we've never been able to talk about it.
Jeff Hein: But. um What is the difference between a canvas? That is... Um, I mean, I agree beautiful, but is just a series of shapes.
Jeff Hein: and And a curtain. That's a series of shapes. What makes a good curtain designer a good fabric designer?
Jack: Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: Any less. credible in any less. worthy of high praise and pay. Van Rothko. That's where I draw the line. Like I believe that Rothko makes a beautiful designs, but I don't believe it's worth even a.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: tiny fraction of what the world. thinks it's worth. I think it I think it's no more beautiful than a beautiful piece of fabric. that I wrap my cushions with.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: you know.
Jack: i think it's the I think it's the difference.
Jeff Hein: um So it should be charged by the yard.
Jack: Yeah. I... So this is a good question, and i think that our culture I think that our culture has a lot to do with it.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: I don't know that I have a straightforward answer, but the thing that comes to mind for me is... There is a... There's a ah building here in our town.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: that used to be a church And now it's a natural food store. that also happens to sell the kinds of wafers that you might see in a church.
Jack: For communion.
Jeff Hein: interesting.
Bad Erik: Hmm.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: As one of the items they sell. And. Those wafers don't mean shit because it's not a church anymore. Rothko is a church.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Jack: A curtain store is not a church.
Jeff Hein: Okay, I don't understand.
Jack: Like...
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: Roth goes to church.
Jack: Rothko is a church. Like a Rothko.
Jeff Hein: Rothko's a church, what are what his paintings are wafers?
Jack: No, no. When ah when I stand... God damn it, chef.
Jeff Hein: i want um want to I want to make sure this thing makes sense.
Jack: Look, i'm I'm mixing my metaphors here, but like.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Jack: when i When I stand in front of a Rothko. I feel the presence of the sublime. And I at least like to believe. that I would feel that.
Jack: even if it wasn't in the Whitney Museum, if I happened to stumble across it in... A barn. And he wasn't famous. I think I would still feel the same.
Jack: But I do not feel this way. When I go and see a really, really. well -made curtain. Part of it, I think, is because it's made for the consumer. Like, it's made for consumption, right?
Jeff Hein: Right.
Jack: like Like. I... i I have this I have this. Former professor and Paul and Eric have heard me talk about him a lot. You might know him. His name is Craig Drennan. I think he's one of the more like. famous contemporary living living painters.
Jack: um And Drennan has this. Has this sort of. um
Jack: it's not ah It's not a rule per se, but... Art. art is ah Art does not care for the end user, and design does. right a curtain is a piece of design.
Jack: Who is concerned with the end user? And a Rothko. was made. by Rothko, based on Rothko's ideas. for Rothko. And maybe eventually for the public, yes, when he started to get famous.
Jack: But, like, when i'm when I'm in here in the studio making something, I don't give two shits. i'm not making it for somebody. Right. it's It's for me, it's for my longing, it's for the sense of seeking the sublime, of trying to solve a problem. It's not a consumer object. And I think for better or worse, in our culture, that does change.
Jack: That does change something. There's no longing in a curtain.
Jeff Hein: Huh.
Jack: There's longing in a Rothko.
Jeff Hein: Okay. So what if...
Jack: So anyway, bad art.
Jeff Hein: What if a curtain designer really didn't do it for the public? That's just happened to be where they sell their fabric. i mean it So it sounds like the argument...
Jack: then i hope Then I hope their marketing is good because today they're going to need good marketing to be.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, no kidding.
Jack: To be famous.
Jeff Hein: But they... So it sounds like the argument you're making is context. It that.
Jack: That's part of it.
Jeff Hein: um that Rothko being that. One, his intention, but two... the where it goes you know how it's displayed how it's presented to the public.
Jeff Hein: is. as much what makes it a piece of art as the image itself.
Jack: And that i have I get a BMI bonnet about this for for woodworking folks because... Uh, When something is meant to have utility. It apparently is no longer art. And I think that's kind of bullshit.
Jeff Hein: See that's why the context thing throws me a little bit.
Bad Erik: Oh, this is a conversation we've had many a time.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: yeah
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: That's why the context thing throws me a little bit because i i to me, context doesn't matter.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: But I mean, you can't argue with feelings. I can't argue with that what you feel when you look at a Rothko. That's why I'm so curious about it.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Because I feel something too, but I attribute it to... Good design. And that feeling is not worth $69 million. dollars
Jack: Sure.
Jeff Hein: Right. That, that. That's where it gets crazy to me. it's just who how do i mean i know the answer to this but the fact that we've decided based on Things like. context.
Jeff Hein: um as a not you personally, but as a culture. that that one piece of fabric is worth $69 million dollars and another piece of fabric is worth $35 a yard.
Jack: Well, ah Jeff, how about this?
Jeff Hein: is strange to me.
Jack: If I, if I see, okay, how much do you sell your paintings for? Let's let's say ah a painting, if if you had a painting that was... seven feet wide by seven feet tall.
Jeff Hein: How many feet wide? You cut out for a sec.
Jack: seven feet let's say seven feet wide if it was seven feet wide by seven feet tall How much would you sell it for? Probably.
Jeff Hein: A couple hundred thousand.
Jack: Okay. ah A, good for you. um If that same thing. was printed on a piece of canvas and uses a shower curtain, I wouldn't give two shits about it and I wouldn't be moved by it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh I showered Kurt.
Bad Erik: i want I want a Jeff Hines shower curtain now.
Jeff Hein: I can't. I can't disagree with you
Bad Erik: ah
Jack: I mean I kind of do now too actually. but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Shower curtains.
Jeff Hein: But...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: the next big craze.
Jeff Hein: God, I got to. I got to call my marketing person and cancel that order.
Jeff Hein: Yeah. Bad business plan.
Jack: You see what I mean, though.
Bad Erik: All right. All right. Listen, it listen.
Jack: Okay, I'm sorry.
Jeff Hein: hey
Jack: so Paul, Paul, please get us back on track.
Bad Erik: Can we, can we, yeah, pause.
Jeff Hein: That's a valid point, though.
Bad Erik: Paul's really not been pulling us back to the to the conversation here.
Jeff Hein: that's good
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I gave up guys.
Bad Erik: ki Can we?
Jeff Hein: Wait, I'm confused.
Jack: I...
Jeff Hein: I'm confused. Are we not talking about bad art? I think we're talking about bad art
Jack: I think... i think
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Keep going. Keep going.
Jack: the the new rule The new rule is that the ratio...
Jeff Hein: Ah.
Bad Erik: You're doing a terrible job Paul.
Jack: The ratio of ADHD to non -ADHD can be no greater than two to one in any given episode.
Bad Erik: Two to one. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha.
Bad Erik: That tracks. That tracks.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Three to one.
Bad Erik: I'm...
Jeff Hein: Hey.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm overwhelmed.
Bad Erik: I'm trying so hard.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I give up.
Jack: ah
Bad Erik: Okay. here's here's Here's what I want to end on. I want to close the episode on this because I want to make...
Jeff Hein: Whoa, have we go gone in another hour?
Bad Erik: I want to.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Wait, wait, wait, Eric.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: I want to What?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead Go ahead.
Bad Erik: Well, i I want I want to make I want to make Jack's exercise more tangible to the people. Okay. And so I want to understand. Um,
Bad Erik: how they can apply this. ah And I, and if you disagree with doing this, please push back against me. I know you said that like talking about it in theory could ah diminish the results that it brings.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: So if you don't want to talk through the idea that I had in, in how like I visualize making this thing.
Jack: no no let's do it let's do it
Bad Erik: Okay, okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Okay, but before you do, can I say something?
Bad Erik: because
Jeff Hein: Because you need...
Bad Erik: ah
Jeff Hein: Because you need context. You need context. Let me give you... let me give you Let me give you a different side of the argument, okay? Because i don't ah I don't disagree with this bad art assignment. In fact, it's really interesting and I'm going to really chew on it for a while. Well, I'm not because I'm going to forget the episode as soon as I leave. but I'm probably going to write it down and eventually get back to it.
Bad Erik: i think I think we've... Broken Paul's spirit.
Jeff Hein: Yeah. Nobody. But here here, let me give you an analogy. and and Because I wonder... i i'm sure there's some value in this because jack you seem like a very intelligent person and you've experienced positive things from this but let me give you a possible negative from this assignment So I was sitting in.
Jeff Hein: um I was sitting in the living room of a famous... um well, famous in my culture. um in Utah. so you guys probably wouldn't know who he was but he was a very very successful musician composer pianist And I'm sitting in his living room and his son.
Jeff Hein: is goofing around with my kids. His son was probably like... seven years old and my kids were seven years old as well i've got twins so in case the audience is confused um so my kids are seven years old as well and they're goofing around the piano And this guy yells at his son. We'll call his son Bob.
Jeff Hein: No one, no kids kid' named Bob. We'll call his son Billy. And. i And he yells at bill Billy and he says, Billy. Stop practicing your mistakes.
Jeff Hein: Right. And and I thought, oh, my gosh. That is. really a smart critique because And I've since used that in my own work. Because a lot of a lot of times I'll see students and other artists.
Jeff Hein: Kind of getting lazy and doing. quote -unquote bad art. out of laziness. And. Or I don't know. I don't know. There could be any number of of motivations or lack of motivations that would make them or cause them to make a bad piece of art.
Jeff Hein: But this idea that practicing your mistakes will actually hurt the end product. um being the musician, right? the end product. it to me is.
Jeff Hein: is also a really valid. Point so the so where i take that is can making bad art for a student intentionally actually hurt them in the long run because their practice.
Jeff Hein: arguably practicing their mistakes.
Jack: I think if there was repetition involved, yes, a thousand times yes. But I think as a one time over the top.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Jack: make this like insanely outrageous exploratory thing. I think it's actually ah i think it's a good exercise.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, you're probably right. Okay.
Jack: Yeah, yeah, I know I am. Thanks. for acknowledging that.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: um
Jeff Hein: Can't argue with that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jeff Hein: That kind of confidence. Did you mention confidence in your skills, in your aptitudes?
Jack: Okay. No. It's not high up there, actually. um okay eric wait i'm sorry what are we looking eric stop sending things in the chat
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So...
Bad Erik: I don't know what you're talking about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: er
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: It's fine.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Ha ha. Alright.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So...
Bad Erik: It's this boy, this side of the Mississippi.
Jack: Meh.
Jeff Hein: All right, go ahead, Eric.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric.
Jeff Hein: Sorry I cut you off.
Bad Erik: i don't I don't even know.
Jeff Hein: I feel like you need you needed so the other end of the the spectrum on that one.
Bad Erik: du
Bad Erik: Alright.
Jeff Hein: although Although she pretty much shut that down.
Bad Erik: Listen, I'm...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Bad Erik: i'm gonna i'm gonna we're we'll make we'll make quick worry this because we're already an hour 40 into this fucking episode um here's Here's when you brought up this exercise.
Jeff Hein: hey
Bad Erik: I was really this is I'm not trying to make a joke. This is the first thing that popped in my fucking head about like, if I were to make the worst piece of art. that I could possibly make. The thing that came into my mind.
Bad Erik: was I paint a field of green. Upon which I construct. A macaroni penis. And...
Jeff Hein: Oh that would absolutely be taken seriously.
Bad Erik: I don't know why macaroni art. Okay. Right. So like in the right context, you know, you duct tape that shit to a wall.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, what's a macaroni penis?
Bad Erik: Well, you know macaroni art.
Jack: Yes, Eric, describe.
Bad Erik: You know?
Jeff Hein: Is that made of one noodle or multiple noodles?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
Bad Erik: Macaroni. Yes, and.
Jack: Mm.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: Okay.
Bad Erik: It's... it's ah
Jack: I... There's... there's like There's a qualifier here that I that i have.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: forgotten, which I.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: When I'm teaching this, I'm usually in a specific. class that's based on a specific medium.
Bad Erik: Okay.
Jack: and And so I...
Bad Erik: All right. So we're not making macaroni art.
Jack: i no macaroni penises today eric i'm so sorry
Bad Erik: Today being the operative word.
Jack: Today exactly you you heard me use. Yeah, you see what I'm putting down um
Bad Erik: Okay, okay.
Jack: In your medium. In.
Bad Erik: In my medium.
Jack: In your medium.
Bad Erik: So what's the worst? Okay, so so this is why I asked the question. 78 fucking minutes ago about whether the... the
Jeff Hein: I'm starting to feel not welcome here.
Jack: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Jeff, you're always welcome here.
Jeff Hein: ah
Bad Erik: ah but You're always welcome, bud.
Jeff Hein: yeah
Jack: You're so welcome. I'm so glad to be here with you, Jeff.
Jeff Hein: ah He keeps on saying the time like he's ready to go.
Bad Erik: So the the. Good question. ah
Jeff Hein: ah
Jack: It's because of my bedtime. It's not you.
Bad Erik: The question about whether this is the best.
Jack: It's me.
Jeff Hein: Okay. Yeah.
Bad Erik: uh iteration you can make of that bad art so the way so let's just let's just take the macaroni penis for an example okay Um, Yeah.
Jack: just Yeah, sure.
Bad Erik: That's the soundbite for this episode.
Bad Erik: If I were to make that, my first inclination was. Trying to make all of those noodles out of wood and do all of these laminations and do interesting things like like stupid way, you know, and so um'm I'm wondering if it is.
Jeff Hein: you'd focus on craftsmanship.
Bad Erik: Right.
Jack: I'm sorry, you you... You said noodles out of wood, and I need to pause on that for a second. I'm so sorry.
Jeff Hein: Wow, it's so...
Bad Erik: Whoa.
Jack: Okay.
Bad Erik: Well... I'm wondering if the, if the purpose of the exercise, at least how I'm interpreting it is.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: Bowl.
Bad Erik: to do the thing that's so bad because it will teach you something about the craft. of whatever medium within which you work. or if it's about the composition. Does that make sense?
Jack: o Yes. I think.
Jeff Hein: I think it's more about the concept. Jack, is that right?
Jack: it's it's i think it's about the concept and it's about you as an as an artist right okay okay So Paul, you have something to say, and then I would like to give an example of one of the most epic pieces of bad art I've seen.
Jack: But I want you to say what you're going to say first.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, no. Keep going. Keep going. Let's go.
Jack: Okay. All right. So. when this is When I was on the receiving end of this assignment, I was in grad school. And one of ah one of the artists in my cohort was this. ceramicist and so multimedia sculptor named Andy Adamson.
Jack: Fucking brilliant. ceramic art and just a brilliant human being. And. um He made a piece of art that was like. A. Ceramic.
Jack: but fake wood cross like crucifix, but not a crucifix because Jesus wasn't on it. And. He. He like. adhered a literal actual t -bone steak to it And so ah airbrushed it with this, like...
Jack: uh shitty like panamocity beach myrtle beach looking airbrush of like palm tree silhouettes And. That was... that was and it and And I think it said Jesus on it, like in this.
Jack: airbrush palm tree silhouette shitty south florida looking you know kind of thing It was so fucking well crafted. But it was just this like. Over the top. Multimedia.
Jack: it's performative because it's literally going to stink and decay and it's just like
Jeff Hein: hu
Jack: shock value right like shock jock kind of you know thing and like consumer culture and shitty florida airbrushing and stuff and it just It says so much.
Jack: about what you feel like is bad as a person. what it says about your value system, about your virtue signaling, about your craft.
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Jack: there's just there's so much to unpack there's so much to unpack there
Bad Erik: okay
Jack: yeah
Bad Erik: Paul.
Jeff Hein: Oh my gosh, poor Paul.
Bad Erik: Paul is spiritually broken.
Jack: Bye.
Jeff Hein: You look like you're gonna pass out.
Jack: We did it, guys. We did it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You guys broke me this episode.
Bad Erik: but
Jack: Go team!
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'll be honest.
Jack: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jeff Hein: Paul won't be listening to his own podcast. This this time.
Jack: No, you won't.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There's a 0 % chance I'm going to re -listen to this episode. No, I'm just kidding. I re -listen i relisten to every episode. but Alright. What? I'm always listening with. it with with the intent of kind of extolling things down into a tincture that i can remember for the next
Bad Erik: I dare you to bring this down into a tincture right now, boil it down, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Who knows how long?
Jack: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. So.
Jeff Hein: a
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: If I were to try to extrapolate. Everything we talked about, which is. Challenging. um I would say.
Bad Erik: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bad. Art. Really? teaches you about what you care about and what's good it's like the the whole yin yang thing it's like
Jack: mm -hmm
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You don't understand the good without understanding the bad.
Jeff Hein: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: its some Something along those lines. I know that's very cliche, but... If you don't know... You know, sometimes by understanding what you viscerally react against or you don't like, even whether you make it or you see it, we've done both. We've talked about what we've made.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah that we didn't like. We've talked about what we see that we don't like. And that then illuminates the other side of the coin, which is what do we value? What is what do we consider to be good? And that's a learning experience. That's the first thing that I take away.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The second thing that I wanted to say. is A science piece to this that has not been mentioned. ah Hitherto. which is um There's a huge literature on how we learn.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And the. I'm just going to give it to you straight. I'm not going to go through it a step at a time like I normally do. I will just say. That when we learn. ah Typically, we learn like we do in school. You're instructed, do this. the light side of the coin, right? If we take a coin and there's a dark side and a light side, the light side is what you should do. The dark side is what you shouldn't do. ah Bad art, good art, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: When we go to school... We're taught. Focus on what you should do. That's all we learn is. This is the way you should do math. This is science. This is good grammar. This is should, should, should, right? That's all we learn. But in fact, research shows.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: that if you give students... Hmm. If you don't give them much instruction at all and you let them flounder. And they they're just.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: at sea. They don't know what to do. They make bad art. they who know They're just lost. Then if you instruct them. After the feeling of being completely fucking lost.
Jeff Hein: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Those lessons. Stick with them. Longer? They remember it better. There's just every metric of the, that that is better way to teach. then This is what you should do from the very beginning. And this is the whole bad art conver conversation to me, which is. The batter.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You feel lost. You're floundering. like This sucks. I just feel so confused by it. it just I hate it. And maybe that really ties into this alternate view of learning, which is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe. Maybe you should feel lost first, then you really appreciate when you've been found. And that's Kapur et al. and Robert and Elizabeth Bjork. There's a whole school of psychology research that speaks to this being a better learning model.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I think not only that, but...
Jeff Hein: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Pr - The idea of doing that art. it It speaks to this idea of volume over perfection.
Jack: m
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just make a lot of things, make a lot of things. The best sports players are the one that have the most reps, the best. you know potters are the one who have made the most pots because it's like repetition improvement, repetition, improvement, iteration, iteration, iteration, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. Maybe making bad art is like saying, you know what? It doesn't have to be the best thing ever. I'm just going to make a lot of it. And you improve faster than someone who cogitates right off the bat in the ivory tower and says, I'm going to make the best thing from step one.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Another idea is it removes the idea of perfectionism, this boundary that we have to make the best thing right from the very first thing. You don't have to be perfect when you're Jack, when you're challenging your students to make a piece of shit or make a piece of bad art that removes all the pressure of making something perfect or making something precious.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So they just go ahead and try things. And that can be. Amazing. Right?
Jack: you you just You actually just hit one of the secret parts of the assignment. the the nail on the head there with that it's is what when you're supposed to be making something bad.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Please. Yeah, go ahead. Good.
Jack: You relinquish all the pressure, you relinquish the perfectionism, and you start to try things that you might not have tried before that unlock this kind of secret path to new aptitudes, new enjoyment. And both of the woodworking is bullshit listeners.
Jack: who have completed the assignment that I've followed up with afterwards have said this exact thing. This is the biggest secret of the assignment. And both of them are quite perfectionist by their own admission. And so when you do away with that, when it's not even an option, when perfectionism is the opposite of the point.
Jack: You unlock entire new realms of Play. Play is so important.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jack: and aptitude.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was just gonna say that.
Jack: Oh, it's so it's so big. It's so huge. So i I hope that everybody who's listening goes out and makes the...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So. ah
Jack: abso -fucking -lutely -dog -shittiest -macaroni -dick piece of art they possibly can.
Jeff Hein: No, no, no that idea has been taken don't copy
Jack: After hearing this episode.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ha
Bad Erik: Please do it. Please do it.
Jeff Hein: Don't copy.
Bad Erik: Please do it so I don't have to.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So...
Jeff Hein: And no performance art with crossing streams.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So you're giving. ah
Jeff Hein: That's been taken too.
Jack: Oh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I would just.
Jeff Hein: that That's been taken.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'd end by just saying that effort and failure. If you define what you did as failure. Aren't just like. Side effects. Of learning that that's the point, right? That's the mechanism of learning is failing and doing better. So Jack, maybe what you're suggesting is like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Just as a f - a fun thought exercise. Let's go straight to let's go. so Let's point ourselves there. Now. I just I have one last question. And I totally see the benefits of this. I've never.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: In my life, tried. a project. towards bad art. Okay. I've never tried it. But what I have done a million times is pilot projects.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, I'm like. I know that my goal is there, but I know to get there I have to try a few things to see if they work. And I try this and I pilot that and I try this idea and I try that and I get some, I send the tendrils out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And i I see that the pilot projects. Give me information back. Are those? In essence, like, mini... bad art projects, many failures to tell me whether I should keep going or if that's going to work.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is Does that? I just didn't know how to. relate that.
Jack: I think it's close.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: to this conversation.
Jack: I think with pilot projects, at least in my experience, you're still kind of you're trying to be good or at least there's a goal towards success. you know, but I think...
Jeff Hein: Define a pilot project.
Jack: site
Jeff Hein: I'm sorry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, Jeff, like, let's say...
Bad Erik: Yeah, i'm I'm unfamiliar with this too, Jeff.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: let
Jeff Hein: I'm going to go out on a limb and be an idiot.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are you serious?
Bad Erik: Yeah, I don't know what pilot project means.
Jeff Hein: I mean, I've heard the term before and I'm assuming it's a project that helps you to get to the end project, like a better project.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh. Oh. yeah it's like okay so i just recently did a mosaic ah a wooden mosaic piece of many you know wooden tile mosaics and i didn't know how to go about doing it i didn't know if i was going to make it about a thousand separate tiles or if i was going to just do some other approach and so i tried like two three four different approaches little pilot projects to see
Bad Erik: Mm -hmm. Sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm. Is that the way to go? No, it's it's it's it's too much work.
Jeff Hein: oh Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is that the way to go?
Bad Erik: So are are they are they prototypes or are they completed projects?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
Jack: Jeff.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The prototypes prototyping.
Bad Erik: Okay, okay, okay, okay, I got you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah. You could call it prototyping.
Jack: Jeff.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Is that?
Jack: Jeff I think the closest thing in painting might be like a maquette you know like but the The kind of...
Jeff Hein: Yeah. or a sketch.
Jack: Yeah, yeah, but it's like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A sketch.
Jack: the point the point for a maquette or a sketch or a pilot project is is not to be good it's experimentation Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's not to be good.
Jack: It's not to be good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's to gather information.
Jack: right but it's also not to be bad And and I.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well...
Jeff Hein: Because you have to find out if it works.
Jack: So I think there's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eat.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, you're just you're just seeking information on like is this approach gonna be the one that takes me to the goal.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: If not, I want to figure it out fast.
Jack: But it doesn't. it doesn't take It doesn't take away the same amount of pressure and inject the same amount of play. Right. it's It is a little bit different.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah Okay
Jack: so they Because when you're making a maquette or a sketch or a pilot project, you're still you still want it to look good.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jack: Right. Like.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, no, actually, I don't I don't I just prototype it just just enough to get a sense for is this the path forward?
Bad Erik: It's an ends to a meme. Or means to an end.
Jack: No?
Jack: Mhm.
Jack: This is your...
Jeff Hein: But it still has to be just good enough that you know it works.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I don't want to put an...
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It doesn't have to look good. I'll know. I can tell by looking at it if that's the path.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't care if it looks good or doesn't look good to anyone because no one sees it besides me.
Jack: This is...
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Bad Erik: but But when you're doing a thing that's intentionally bad, there's an innate silliness to it that allows you to just...
Jack: Yeah.
Jack: Mhm, mhm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, that's yeah good.
Jack: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Fuck around.
Jack: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Good.
Bad Erik: You know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Good. good yeah that's good
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: There's another aspect. can I just want to bring up one thing. There's another aspect that you touched on that I found awesome because I've never seen this research. But this research that you brought up that says that... By allowing a student to...
Jeff Hein: to sort of just stumble along and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Flounder, yeah.
Jeff Hein: And then teaching them, this is literally exactly how I run my Atelier, which I know is unique in my Atelier.
Bad Erik: Mm -hmm.
Jeff Hein: We're all have. Students rarely question it, but every now and then I'll have a student be like, can't you tell me step -by -step what to do before the assignment? Like, no. Here's a sample of the assignment. Do it.
Jeff Hein: And then what happens is then they fail miserably usually. And then they come to me, but now they have. Infinite questions.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm hmm.
Jeff Hein: because they've stumbled through all this stuff.
Jack: Mm -hmm
Jeff Hein: Oh my gosh, what do I do when this happens? What do I do when that happens? So then if I demonstrate it for them, now they're like, oh, that's what you do in that situation.
Bad Erik: Well, they they have the context for that information.
Jeff Hein: Oh, that's what you do. They have context.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They do.
Jeff Hein: Right. And in that sense.
Jack: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jeff Hein: That's another sense, not just in that sense, but that's another way. um I think of allowing at least the experience of making bad art is beneficial to your growth because the. the experience of making the bad art.
Jeff Hein: brings the questions to the forefront and also gives context to the to the lessons that will follow.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, then let me say this, Jeff. It's called.
Jeff Hein: and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Productive failure. And the author who does a lot of research is Kapur, K -A -P -U -R. If you want to look it up learners who struggle.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: through open -ended problems before getting instruction. retain concepts better.
Jeff Hein: Oh, I know. I've seen it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and transfer them and transfer them further than those taught the right way from the very beginning, struggling with an ugly result. forces you. To build a mental model. that clean instruction alone.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right from the very get go. does not give you. And that's the research.
Jeff Hein: But in this point this in this case, though, it's... you have to have the instruction after or you could just be chasing your tail for 20 years yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Totally, totally.
Jack: mm -hmm
Bad Erik: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. but But they're saying this is not the way Western, um let's I'll just say American education is done.
Jeff Hein: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We're always taught. The right way to do it. without context from the very beginning memorize it or you get a bad grade goodbye and they don't allow kids to struggle first.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because no one wants to see Junior. Be upset.
Bad Erik: right Yeah, i'm i'm really I'm really trying not to be like get on my high horse and be like, just fucking shake my fist at the clouds right now.
Jeff Hein: Well, and the other aspect of this.
Jack: And it's...
Jeff Hein: I know right. But the...
Jack: it's it's ruining It's ruining everything that we teach people to go for perfection first instead of letting them do the bad thing.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: because like but frankly bad art is the only path to actual mastery period full stop no fucking arguments there and actually
Bad Erik: Mm -hmm
Jeff Hein: Well, you can't avoid making bad art. It's impossible.
Jack: you You can't. You can't. If you don't make bad art, you're never going to get to the good art. If you feel like you've never made a piece of bad art, the bottom line is you've also never made a fucking piece of good art.
Jeff Hein: Right.
Jack: I don't care what you think. You're wrong.
Bad Erik: Mm hmm.
Jack: and paul Paul actually has...
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: One of my favorite. te funny t -shirts I've ever designed. The slut for theory t -shirt.
Bad Erik: Hell yeah.
Jack: the slut for theory t -shirt has a little dog on it and on the dog collar the dog's name is fuffy at F -U -F -I. Which stands for... fuck up and fix it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fuck up and find it. Fix it, right?
Jack: Fuck up and fix it. If you if you cannot fuck up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Jack: And fix it. You are not a master at that thing. You're not even close.
Jeff Hein: Yes.
Jack: So.
Jeff Hein: That's so true.
Jack: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: It's so many students get so scared to erase something or change something.
Jack: Mm hmm.
Bad Erik: huh
Jeff Hein: Cause like, I don't even know how I got here. I've even heard professionals say. um And teachers and professional painters say, I don't know how I got here. I could never paint this painting again. And I'm like.
Jack: what
Jeff Hein: then you're not an artist. like How is that?
Jack: Yeah, that's bonkers.
Jeff Hein: How do you not know how you got there if you're truly... you at least competent in this field. it doesn't make any sense to me um But another thing that's a benefit that I thought about, Paul, is is bennet well, all of you, of course, but that's a benefit. to this style of teaching.
Jeff Hein: Um, is that... Students then don't just learn the how, they learn the why.
Jack: is a
Jeff Hein: Right. And that's one of my pet peeves. You know, it's. Because i remember I remember when I was in them, this is... a little bit it's not art but i think it's related i was in a math class in college when I was in you know maybe 17 or whatever and I
Jeff Hein: I didn't understand imaginary numbers because I can't remember the formulas. I'm really good at math if I understand it because then I can reverse engineer the formulas, but I can't remember the formulas. So I'm the student who raises my hand and says, look, I can't remember these formulas. Can you explain to me why?
Jeff Hein: This works, who invented it, how it's applied. why it's applied. And this guy was the head of the math department. And he said, I have no idea. No one's ever asked me. So I had to go to the library and figure it out in order to learn this stuff.
Jack: That's insane
Jeff Hein: And I read all about it's been so many years, I couldn't tell you what it was anymore. But I've read I read all about why it works. And I was able to get through the curriculum because I understood why it worked.
Jeff Hein: far too many teachers. Don't allow their students to fail and learn those lessons and have to. force them to figure out. why the principles that they're that they're taught after the failure actually works in application.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh That's the biggest endorsement for bad art. right? Allowing them to fail up front or experience controlled failure to understand why they're doing what they're doing.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Well, kids.
Jeff Hein: Heh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What?
Jeff Hein: Good night.
Bad Erik: Ha ha.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i I don't know what else to say.
Jeff Hein: i youre You look exhausted.
Bad Erik: I don't... I don't...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh boy.
Bad Erik: I think we broke Paul. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You broke me
Jeff Hein: Feel free to cut.
Jack: Sorry buddy.
Jeff Hein: feel free to cut my whole section out to shorten the episode.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, no, I'm not cutting we don't edit as you know
Bad Erik: Not at all.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Not at all.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Double introduction, fine.
Jeff Hein: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Episode off the rails.
Jack: Whatever.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fine. Who gives a shit? It is what it is.
Bad Erik: I will say, once we once we hit the hour mark and we actually talked about the topic, it was a fucking great topic.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because this is the It's the honest truth.
Jack: That was great. That was great.
Jeff Hein: Paul, you have to make a good podcast in order to learn how to make a...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It was actually great before that.
Jeff Hein: Good one. You have to make a bad one first.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Bad Erik: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Jeff Hein: And then. Then you'll figure it out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, Jeff.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, Jeff, thank you for being on. We're going to have you on again.
Bad Erik: Yeah, thanks, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're the best.
Jeff Hein: Awesome.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i love I love when you join our conversations, Jack.
Jeff Hein: you You guys are great.
Bad Erik: Appreciate you, buddy.
Jeff Hein: Thanks.
Bad Erik: And Jack, we're fucking as always.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Amazing as always. it's
Jack: Oh, thanks for having me guys.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's 10 minutes to your bedtime, Eric.
Jack: Mhm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know I love you. ah You know... as ah as As my parting thought. I want to tell you something I thought going into this episode. and It has nothing to do with the episode, actually.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's just like. I was around all day. and i thought you know i get to sit tonight with three of my favorite people and just talk
Jeff Hein: That's nice.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: for like a couple hours.
Bad Erik: Just shoot the shit.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, I was feeling super gratitude prior to this episode that I was going to see the three of you.
Bad Erik: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And. the last I don't know how long, two hours. It went by like two minutes, even though you broke me like scientifically.
Jeff Hein: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I loved the time we spent together and it's the. It's just the best. So thank you.
Jeff Hein: Thanks.
Bad Erik: Fucking same, buddy.
Jeff Hein: Ditto.
Jack: Oh, thank you guys.
Bad Erik: Love you, bud.
Jeff Hein: Dead out.
Jack: i look I look forward to it always.
Jeff Hein: Yeah.
Jack: Yep.
Jeff Hein: Yeah, and it's great to meet you Jack and always good to see you Eric and Paul
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, I see. We'll see.
Jack: Great to meet you too, Jeff.
Bad Erik: Yeah, likewise. Let's let's let Jack go to bed. She's fucking tired
Jeff Hein: Goodnight, Jack.
Jack: I'm so tired
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jack.
Bad Erik: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go to bed.
Jack: Good night.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, y 'all. We'll see you with Jeff in the after show. Bye.
Bad Erik: Okay, bye.
Jeff Hein: Bye.
