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The Kennedy Curse, Part 7
39 Plays17 days ago
On today's episode, we look at the life and death of Joe Kennedy Jr. The loss of Joe Jr. directly led to Joe Sr. putting all of his own hopes for political domination on his second eldest son, John F. Kennedy. Joe Jr.'s death encapsulates how the Kennedy family's trait of thrill-seeking, even when coupled with noble reasons, have ultimately led to tragedy.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
Sources (there's a lot):
Books: The Kennedy Curse by Edward Klein, Rosemary: The Hidden Kennedy Daughter by Katie Clifford Larson, The First Kennedys: The Humber Roots of an American Dynasty by Neal Thompson, After Camelot: A Personal History of the Kennedy Family 1968 to the Present by J. Randy Taraborrelli, Ask Not: The Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed by Maureen Callahan, The Kennedy Imprisonment: A Meditation on Power by Garry Wills, Black Water by Joyce Carol Oates
Media: Grey Gardens (1975 documentary), JFK (1991 film), Thirteen Days (2000 film), Murder in Greenwich (2002 television film), Bobby (2006 film), Grey Gardens (2006 musical), Grey Gardens (2009 film), Parkland (2013 film), 11.23.63 (2016 series), Jackie (2016 film), Chappaquiddick (2017 film), Cover-Up (2018 podcast), The RFK Tapes (2018 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episodes 400-405: JFK (2020 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode Relaxed Fit: Marilyn Monroe & The President’s Aspirin (2020 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode Side Stories: The Bullet in the Backseat (2023 podcast), Wine & Crime, Episode 366: Lobotomy Crimes (2024 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode 1046: The Miseducation of Ed Larsen - JFK & Government Conspiracies (2025 podcast), United States of Kennedy (2025 podcast), Dead Certain: The Martha Moxley Murder (2025 podcast), Wine & Crime, Episode 456: Family Curses (2026 podcast), Love Story (2026 series)
Websites: historyhit.com, Scientific America, CNN, PBS, CBS News, BBC, Autistic Self Advocacy Center, InStyle, Best Buddies International, All Things Interesting, USA Today, Today in Civil Liberties, Cambridge Dictionary, Kennedys and King, RJP Books, New York Post, Boston Magazine, Time, The Moth, Vanity Fair, Voices Center for Resilience, Reddit, Washington Association of Black Journalists, NPR, The Ringer, The Daily Express, The Harvard Crimson, Wikipedia
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Transcript
Introductions and Hyper Fixations
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyper fixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome back, everyone.
The First Kennedy Tragedy: Joe Jr.'s Death
00:00:24
Speaker
on today's episode, we are going to talk about the first major loss in the Kennedy family, the death of the eldest Kennedy sibling, Joe Jr.
00:00:35
Speaker
Whether hubris or curse, Joe's death could have been avoided. We will also discuss a tangential tragedy around the family, the death of Athalia Poncell Lindsley, who had been engaged to Joe Jr. before his death.
00:00:52
Speaker
As always for the Kennedy Curse episodes, check out the sources listed in the show notes.
Joe Jr.'s Life and Ambitions
00:00:58
Speaker
Joe Jr. was born on July 25, 1915. He was the oldest child and son of Joe and Rose.
00:01:08
Speaker
Joe Jr. was Joe Sr.'s golden boy. He was the apple of his father's eye. He was the son that Joe Sr. put all of his hopes for a Kennedy political dynasty on.
00:01:20
Speaker
Joy did some comparison of Joe Jr. and Jack around their childhood into early adulthood, and we can see so clearly how differently they were treated. We'll get into this more next week when we get into the JFK of it all, but Jack was a sickly kid. He had a lot of health issues. He was really smart and just as good looking as his brother, but Joe Sr. didn't see Jack in the same light as he did his oldest son.
00:01:49
Speaker
Joe Jr. graduated from Harvard. He entered Harvard Law School, but he stopped his studies to enlist in the Navy. He was groomed by his father to become the first Catholic president. Side note, Joy's oldest son, my cousin, was told by his great-grandfather that he too would be president.
Kennedy Family and WWII Involvement
00:02:10
Speaker
Joe did have political aspirations, but he was going to pursue that after World War II ended. He had been the designated son to carry on the family's political legacy.
00:02:21
Speaker
Before World War II, when the Kennedy family were living in London, Joe Jr. had basically been sent to Germany as kind of like an ambassador to the family almost.
00:02:35
Speaker
And Joe really kind of got a bit ingratiated into kind of the Nazi Germany and the ideas that were spinning. He actually, like his father, he approved of the Nazi sterilization program, calling it a, quote, great thing that, quote, will do away with many of the disgusting specimen of men.
00:02:55
Speaker
When Joe would come back from Germany, he would share these ideas with his father. Now, in contrast, Jack was around Europe at the time, not just in one spot, and he was seeing what Hitler was doing to the entirety of Europe. He had also become attached to England especially, which made him more passionate when he became a soldier. He developed morals around the political climate while Joe Jr. was in the military because it was his father's plan for him.
00:03:25
Speaker
Jack was more fighting for something, fighting to make the world better. Joe Jr. praised Hitler for, quote, building a spirit in his men that could be envied in any country. Now, we got to say, Joe Jr. did change his opinion by 1939.
00:03:44
Speaker
once the u s entered the war joe sr did feel a patriotic duty to encourage his sons to fight for their country and he even pulled strings to get jack enlisted despite his many ailments and illnesses but by the time the u s had entered the war It appears that the Kennedy family generally changed their stances on how they viewed Hitler and, at least publicly, the things that Hitler believed and spouted.
00:04:13
Speaker
Joe Jr. had a really successful time as a soldier. He served his time for his country, and he survived, which I don't think you can ask for much more in World War i However,
00:04:26
Speaker
Jack had this incredibly heroic newsmaking moment during the war when he was shipwrecked for a period of time that completely overshadowed Joe.
00:04:37
Speaker
Side note, we're on a bit of a hiatus from our YouTube channel, but you can go over there still and check out the short we made about JFK and a coconut on the YouTube channel Fixate Today, Gray Matters.
00:04:52
Speaker
This incident brought Jack to Joe Sr.'s attention more than Joe Jr. And, you know, Joe Jr. couldn't be shown up by his little brother. Remember, the Kennedys had this and c incredibly competitive spirit in the family, and that could often be against one another.
Operation Aphrodite and Joe Jr.'s Fate
00:05:12
Speaker
In 1944, Joe Jr. was promoted to lieutenant. He was eligible to return home because he had completed 25 combat missions, but he volunteered for an Operation Aphrodite mission.
00:05:28
Speaker
Before we go on with Joe Jr.'s story, let's talk about Joy's hyperfixation, in this episode, which was Operation Aphrodite. Operation Aphrodite was the codename for a U.S. Air Force operation.
00:05:44
Speaker
Decommissioned, actually, I don't even know if that's the correct word, but whatever, worn out planes that weren't in use anymore. They had been taken out of service, and they were being used as radio-controlled flying bombs, kind of like what drones today do.
00:06:00
Speaker
The planes being used, Boeing B-17 flying fortresses, would be loaded with explosives and flown into bomb-resistant fortifications by radio control. It was like a radio-controlled plane. Germany had used the F-1 flying bomb, which was a jet-powered autopilot weapon against London. So both sides were experimenting with this technology or this plan, these ideas.
00:06:30
Speaker
All of the attempts at this operation were unsuccessful. Out of 14 missions, none successfully destroyed a target and many pilots died.
00:06:42
Speaker
Operation Aphrodite and Joe's mission specifically were top secret. Joe Jr. spent the last weekend in July in England with his sister, Kick, and his mistress, Pat Wilson.
00:06:57
Speaker
Jack had become a war hero at the time, overshadowing his older brother. With this, Joe Jr. fell out of favor with his father, and he became more reckless.
00:07:08
Speaker
He started an affair with Pat Wilson, who was a married woman. He had even expressed wanting to marry her, but it wouldn't have been allowed to be in the Catholic Church if he did, because she would have had to get a divorce. Of course, we talked all about that in our episode on K.I.K.E.
00:07:28
Speaker
Joe Sr. begged his son to come home, but Joe Jr. was insistent. He wanted to stay, and he had a mission that he had been assigned After D-Day, Kik's husband, Billy, was ordered to ship out just five weeks after they were married.
00:07:45
Speaker
If you'll recall, Kik married Billy, who was a higher up in the royal family lineage, rich guy, lots of land, important, a noble guy. Very succinct of me.
00:08:00
Speaker
And Joe Jr. was the only one of Kik's family who attended their wedding. Rose was so horribly against it due to Billy being in a different religion than Kik was. But Joe Jr. stepped up for her, helping plan the wedding even, and walked her down the aisle.
00:08:18
Speaker
Just two weeks after Billy left, two officers from the British Royal Air Force knocked on her door and told her that Joe Jr.'s plane had exploded.
Exploring Theories Behind Joe Jr.'s Death
00:08:29
Speaker
Before Joe had taken off, someone had jokingly asked if his insurance had been paid up. He answered, quote, nobody in my family needs insurance His last wish had been that Kick was given his prized possessions.
00:08:44
Speaker
He died on August 1944. By the way, i think it's the second time my birthday's come up in the Kennedy curse episodes. So adam am I cursed? I don't know I hope not. Oh, no, I hope not.
00:08:58
Speaker
The explosives on the plane detonated before Joe and his co-pilot Wilford John Willie could bail out. There are a couple of theories as to what caused the detonation.
00:09:12
Speaker
The main theory is that a stray signal armed and detonated the explosives. Crew error was ruled out, but an electronics officer named Earl Olson believed that there was a design defect in the wiring harness.
00:09:28
Speaker
He had told Joe the day before the mission about his concerns, but Joe ignored that warning. There's also a theory that Germany somehow managed to sabotage the wiring. Joy knows more about this than I do. She mentioned it and I forgot to look into it more.
00:09:46
Speaker
It's important to remember that Joe was not ordered to participate in this mission. He volunteered and Kick had begged him not to go. Joe and Wilford were posthumously awarded the Navy Cross, the Air Medal, and the Purple Heart.
Legacy and Impact on Kennedy Family
00:10:03
Speaker
A commemorative headstone was erected at Arlington National Cemetery. In 1946, the Navy named a destroyer the USS Joseph P. Kennedy Jr., and his little brother, Bobby Kennedy, briefly served aboard it.
00:10:20
Speaker
The destroyer also served in the blockade of Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962.
00:10:27
Speaker
It also held afloat recovery teams for 1965 space flights Gemini 6 and Gemini 7. It was decommissioned in 1973 and is now a floating museum in Battleship Cove, fall River, Massachusetts.
00:10:43
Speaker
And it is with Joe Jr.'s death that Joe Sr. moved his political aspirations onto his next son in line, Jack.
Athalia Poncell Lindsley and Her Mysterious Murder
00:10:54
Speaker
So back in the beginning, I mentioned a tragedy that is tangential to the Kennedy story, but now we'll start seeing instances of women kind of in the Kennedy orbit dying in mysterious ways. This is not being conspiracy saying that like,
00:11:10
Speaker
The Kennedys were having these women murdered or anything like that. If we're looking at a Kennedy curse, we can kind of see this as maybe the Kennedy tentacles touching all of these people and these people then receiving the effects of the family curse somehow.
00:11:28
Speaker
Let's talk about the murder of Athalia Poncell Lindsley. Her murder has actually become well-known in the true crime space and has been covered on TV shows and podcasts.
00:11:41
Speaker
Her story is so interesting. She just seems like this really like brave, cool woman. she kind of you know blazed her own trail. she it just... She did a lot in her life, and she just seems like a cool lady. Athalia was a model, dancer, TV personality, and activist.
00:12:00
Speaker
She was born into a wealthy family in Ohio, but was raised on the Isle of Pines. which was an island possessed by Cuba in the Caribbean.
00:12:10
Speaker
She lived in New York City for 20 years, where she worked as a chorus line dancer, a model, and she worked on the TV show. it said her role on the show was hostess.
00:12:22
Speaker
I don't really know what that means, but it was a game show called Winner Takes All. Now, who was she to the Kennedys? She had dated Joe Jr. until his death. This likely means that they were publicly dating when he was seeing the married woman.
00:12:40
Speaker
But there were rumors that she and Joe Jr. had been engaged when he died. a bit later in her life, she unsuccessfully tried to run for Florida state senator and was planning on running for a seat on the St. John's County, Florida Commission.
00:12:56
Speaker
She married James Lindsley, who went by the nickname Jinx, which is a little ironic, I guess, in the Kennedy curse story. he was a former mayor of St. Augustine, and they married just four months before her death.
00:13:12
Speaker
They had a really unique relationship. um The couple lived in different homes for the duration of their marriage. i know it was very short marriage, but they they were kind of keeping up their independent lives. but They loved each other, but you know they lived in their different residence. And I think this speaks to her continued independence. In 1974, Athalia was murdered in her home in St. Augustine, Florida.
00:13:38
Speaker
She had taken in six stray dogs at the time. and the barking from her home had become incessant. This resulted in a feud with her neighbor, Alan Griffin Stanford Jr. It had gotten to the point that they were like going to town meetings and stuff, upset with each other and arguing at each other.
00:13:59
Speaker
a commissioner at an October 1973 meeting said of the situation to Athelia, quote, I am aware you are a neighbor of the Stanfords and y'all have neighbor problems. Her response was, quote, that's true, but my life has been threatened. You mentioned personal things. He threatened my life.
00:14:18
Speaker
Between 5.30 p.m. and 6 p.m. on January 23, 1974, middle-aged white man attacked Athalia on her front steps.
00:14:29
Speaker
She was struck in the hand, arm, and head nine times with a machete. She was nearly decapitated, and one of her fingers had been completely severed.
00:14:41
Speaker
A teenage neighbor was heard yelling to his mother, quote, Mr. Stanford is hitting Mrs. Poncelle. The perpetrator left Athalia in a pool of blood. Robbery was ruled out as the only item missing from her home was her pet Blue Jay, and the bird's cage had been smashed.
00:15:00
Speaker
Stanford was arrested very quickly However, he pled innocent and he was acquitted at trial. There were multiple rumors and suspicion that the police had botched the investigation and evidence had been mishandled or lost, but it just seemed like ah an uphill battle in terms of a criminal trial.
00:15:22
Speaker
Just a few months later, on November 3rd, 1974, Athalia's neighbor and friend, Frances Bemis, took her typical evening walk and did not return home.
00:15:34
Speaker
The next day, her body was found with her skull crushed in a vacant lot. She was a newspaper writer, and the rumor is that she was gathering information about Athalia's murder to write a book.
00:15:48
Speaker
Frances's murder has never been solved. Well, that is it for today's episode. No, it's not quite as long as the others, but what we'll see is how Sr. would just leapfrog from son to son with how he wanted the family's name to move forward through history,
Kennedy Tragedies and Political Shift
00:16:11
Speaker
right? The eldest son was cut down and can no longer carry on that name. But what they can do is they can
00:16:20
Speaker
make sure that his memory is creates this, I don't even want to say story because it's not necessarily a story. It's not false. But they probably blew up the heroicism of Joe Jr. to reflect well on the family. And Joe Sr. will continue to take tragedies and kind of spin them to make the Kennedy name ubiquitous with being a good American.
Preview of Future Episodes on JFK
00:16:45
Speaker
So next episode, we are going JFK. I think there's going to be at least four episodes about JFK, and they will probably be long. So it could be more episodes. We'll see how we decide to figure them out. If I'm going to make one episode I've written, two episodes, whatever, we'll figure it out. But we're going down the JFK road for a while.
00:17:06
Speaker
We're going to talk about his life um growing up in the Kennedy home, his marriage, the alleged affairs. We're getting into the Marilyn Monroe of it all.
00:17:16
Speaker
And we're going to get pretty deep into the conspiracies around his assassination. I've learned a theory that I think is absolutely what happened, but we'll get into all that. It is not my theory. I'll say that now. And I will. It's from the last podcast on the left, but this was the thing that I was like, that's That's it. that's it But we will talk about that next episode. So hopefully we will be back next week. We will see you then. i hope you are enjoying the Kennedy Curse series.
00:17:50
Speaker
If you're not, I'm sorry. We've got a long way to go But thank you so much for joining us and we will talk again next week. Bye.