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The Kennedy Curse, Part 13 - Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, and Why It All Happened
39 Plays12 days ago
Who has two thumbs, three kids home on summer break, a job, a mother recovering after knee replacement surgery, two cars that need repairs, and forgot to upload the episode? (Nikki gestures to herself using her thumbs) THIS GUY.
We wrap up our side quest about Lee Harvey Oswald with discussing his arrest, murder, and possible motives.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
Sources (there's a lot):
Books: The Kennedy Curse by Edward Klein, Rosemary: The Hidden Kennedy Daughter by Katie Clifford Larson, The First Kennedys: The Humber Roots of an American Dynasty by Neal Thompson, After Camelot: A Personal History of the Kennedy Family 1968 to the Present by J. Randy Taraborrelli, Ask Not: The Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed by Maureen Callahan, The Kennedy Imprisonment: A Meditation on Power by Garry Wills, Black Water by Joyce Carol Oates, RFK Jr.: The Rise and Fall by Vincent Isabel, Marina and Lee by Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Media: Grey Gardens (1975 documentary), JFK (1991 film), Thirteen Days (2000 film), Murder in Greenwich (2002 television film), Bobby (2006 film), Grey Gardens (2006 musical), Grey Gardens (2009 film), Parkland (2013 film), 11.23.63 (2016 series), Jackie (2016 film), Chappaquiddick (2017 film), Cover-Up (2018 podcast), The RFK Tapes (2018 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episodes 400-405: JFK (2020 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode Relaxed Fit: Marilyn Monroe & The President’s Aspirin (2020 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode Side Stories: The Bullet in the Backseat (2023 podcast), Wine & Crime, Episode 366: Lobotomy Crimes (2024 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode 1046: The Miseducation of Ed Larsen - JFK & Government Conspiracies (2025 podcast), United States of Kennedy (2025 podcast), Dead Certain: The Martha Moxley Murder (2025 podcast), Wine & Crime, Episode 456: Family Curses (2026 podcast), Love Story (2026 series)
Websites: historyhit.com, Scientific America, CNN, PBS, CBS News, BBC, Autistic Self Advocacy Center, InStyle, Best Buddies International, All Things Interesting, USA Today, Today in Civil Liberties, Cambridge Dictionary, Kennedys and King, RJP Books, New York Post, Boston Magazine, Time, The Moth, Vanity Fair, Voices Center for Resilience, Reddit, Washington Association of Black Journalists, NPR, The Ringer, The Daily Express, The Harvard Crimson, Wikipedia
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyperfixations fly.
What is the Kennedy Curse?
00:00:09
Speaker
Today we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
00:00:23
Speaker
Welcome back, everyone.
Oswald and the Kennedy Assassination
00:00:25
Speaker
lo We are continuing to walk through ah Lee Harvey Oswald's, I guess, experience or perspective or or the assassination, basically, from kind of his point of view. What we can know, what we probably don't know for sure. All the things.
00:00:44
Speaker
And the lessons, I mean, and the lessons we can learn or did learn going forward from this investigation and and we do realize is bit of a tangent to actually the Kennedy curse but interesting nonetheless but the reason like and I also think it fits in just with there's a lot of and we'll get when especially once we start going to like more of the crime thingies that happened to the family there is a lot of like mystery and not possibly knowing for sure and things like that and with investigations. So I think this is kind of setting the groundwork for for the family's caginess about things,
Recording Challenges and Setup
00:01:23
Speaker
perhaps. Not to say that the family is covering anything up with the assassination, but it it's kind of a cycle that repeats whether they're doing or not.
00:01:32
Speaker
And also their strong will, i mean, on the opposite side, like their strong will to do things that maybe were not popular yeah how that could have affected them too.
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah. um Before we get started too far, I know Joyce told me before we started recording, it's better, but it is so hot where I live. The air conditioning in my basement is so crazy loud. So I've ah i've erected a bit of a pillow fort to try to cut some of the ambient noise, but I can't turn the AC off, guys. I'm sorry. My whole family would kill me.
Oswald's Arrest and Investigation
00:02:10
Speaker
All right, let's continue with our story of what happened to Lee after the assassination. As always, all of the sources are in the show notes, but we left off that Lee had just been arrested at the movie theater. And he was screaming that he was a patsy and it was police brutality and why are they doing this to him?
00:02:33
Speaker
So at the same time, Marina, his wife, had heard about the assassination and had a bad feeling. She checked Ruth Payne's garage. If you'll remember, she and the kids were living with her friend Ruth Payne.
00:02:49
Speaker
And when she checked the garage, it appeared that the blanket under which Oswald had kept his rifle appeared untouched. She didn't go over and, like, pick it up and look or anything, but it's the thing of, like, you open the garage door and you're like, oh, that looks normal. Everything's fine.
00:03:05
Speaker
And Ruth Payne didn't even know that he was storing a rifle in her in his hat in her house. Yeah. When the police arrived, Marina thought this would clear him, that she's like, look, at this wasn't even touched.
00:03:20
Speaker
But when the police moved the blanket, they found nothing, and she immediately knew what had happened. Now, the narrative is that this was proof that he had come at home, or that that he while he was home the previous day, he had picked up the rifle and brought it to work with him.
00:03:40
Speaker
I still contend we don't necessarily know that. We know it was there and then it wasn't there. Right.
Mistakes and Oversights in the Investigation
00:03:49
Speaker
In jail, Oswald was interrogated five times over the next 12 hours.
00:03:56
Speaker
As far as we know, none of the interrogations were recorded or transcribed. He was interrogated by the captain of the police force who was, his name was Will Fritz. And by all accounts, he was very fair interrogator. He was older, more seasoned. And it was said that 95% of the time he could get confessions out of the people he interrogated.
00:04:24
Speaker
See that? a way of know that Yeah. and This is where our brains are different. Cause to me, I'm like, eek, what is he doing to get 95% rate of confessions?
00:04:34
Speaker
And I, yeah, I do understand that, except that he did not get a confession out of Lee Oswald. yeah And really, I mean, he was generally considered a respected respectable guy across the board. So he did not, he was not one that um that people would suspect to be a corrupt police officer. officer Yeah, as you said, Lee never admitted to either the murder of JFK or the police officer, Officer Tibbetts, saying he was only guilty of bringing a loaded gun into a movie theater.
00:05:10
Speaker
It was said that he wore a smug look that was described as, quote, the face of the cat that ate the canary. And he was called like...
00:05:21
Speaker
he he They said he was calm, but it came off as arrogant and even disdainful that he was there. And this to me is language, you know, that could be used um to sway public opinion of of his behavior. Yeah. Well, and it could even be more innocent as to these arguments.
00:05:46
Speaker
officers and the people who are around him at this time know that he did, he, you know, they believe 100% they've got their guy and they're furious at him. So a look of like, and it could be that he, yeah, he's confident that he did not do it and, and going to be, you know, and going to be released and that that's going to come out. So there's a lot of ways I think that that can be read and there's a lot of ways that yeah we can consider it.
00:06:14
Speaker
Right. Trying to sway the public. Yes. Yeah, definitely. So while being interrogated, Lee's story kept changing as he kept shifting blame. He claimed that he had been watching the parade outside in front of the entrance of the first floor of the book depository.
00:06:31
Speaker
it was discovered hours after his arrest that Oswald still had bullets in his pockets because he was never searched. So after the assassination, he went home and like got a new weapon And like put bullets in his pockets and they just never searched when they arrested him.
00:06:49
Speaker
So again, another like screw up that, you know, I don't, I don't think this was used as like a conspiracy thing or whatever. I think this is seen as just a screw up, but there are these things that keep happening that can then be used by whomever to make things look like they are more nefarious or that, no, that didn't happen. Or yes, that did happen.
Jack Ruby's Role and Intentions
00:07:14
Speaker
Look at this little piece of evidence or look at this thing that happened.
00:07:18
Speaker
And I get yeah out of it. Like clearly the investigation was not the best. Yes. mean, it's so fast. Everything is so fast also.
00:07:30
Speaker
So it was a very questionable investigation and a lot of mistakes. whether However you read them. Yeah. Were made. Yes. So during the interrogation process, Oswald was brought into a room of reporters.
00:07:48
Speaker
This probably was the police's attempt at currying favor with the press. saying look Look how fast we got this guy. Dallas isn't that bad.
00:07:59
Speaker
It was said that he was unnervingly calm and almost relishing finally being the center of attention. That was how the reporters felt his attitude was. But again, everybody's furious at this man. He could have probably sneezed and they'd be like, oh, he sneezed really rudely like he's better than us.
00:08:20
Speaker
so Yeah. And well, first of all, I think this is like the weirdest thing ever. Like bring this guy in for a press conference. It's 100% to be like, we worked really fast, didn't we? We got him.
00:08:34
Speaker
Very strange. um Let's point out, we're going to get into Jack Ruby, the person who ended up assassinating him a little bit later, but Jack Ruby was in it's on film.
00:08:48
Speaker
Jack Ruby was not a reporter. He was in with this group. He not only was in with this group, he was found he was at the back of the room, standing on a table.
00:09:03
Speaker
um during this and During this press conference, he was there? And not when he was being transferred? No, it was during this press conference, his first press press conference. Okay. And this is when he corrected the DA. There was comments about, like, and I can't remember the exact name of the committee or whatever, but the DA said um that Oswald was part of ah you know, free Cuba or whatever. whatever And Lee Hart, I mean, and Jack Ruby like spoke up and said, no, the name of the group is fair play for Cuba committee or whatever, which just was weird. And again, on camera.
00:09:45
Speaker
So, and this is now chalked up as we will learn to the theory that Jack Ruby was kind of pursuing Lee Harvey Oswald.
00:09:57
Speaker
At the time, you know, in theory to kill him. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Oswald was arrested on Friday, Sunday. He was being transferred from police headquarters to the County jail.
00:10:13
Speaker
So this is, uh, the transfer I just mentioned. A gaggle of reporters were present waiting to catch a glimpse of during the transfer The Dallas PD was overly accommodating to the press, wanting to show that Dallas wasn't as hateful as being portrayed, as well as showing that they worked quickly and caught their guy.
00:10:35
Speaker
Again, just seems strange. He was supposed to be transferred in a, an armored like vehicle. Um, when they tried to back it into this underground garage, like it couldn't fit because of some like air conditioner unit or something on top of it. So at the last minute they had to change that plan. Um,
00:10:54
Speaker
And they decided to use one of the police officers, I actually believe it was Captain Fritz's
Who was Jack Ruby?
00:11:01
Speaker
personal vehicle to transport him. And in this process, there was a delay um in like backing in the car. Oh, we'll get there. We'll get there.
00:11:12
Speaker
Because there's my favorite reason for the delays in there too. So we're going to go on to spoiler alerts. Lee Harvey Oswald's murdered. Let's talk about Jack Ruby. Yeah.
00:11:24
Speaker
So Jack Ruby was a strip club owner in Dallas. He had a terrible childhood and he grew up having an explosive temper that stayed with him through adulthood.
00:11:36
Speaker
he He was actually born with a name Jacob Rubenstein. um He was born in Chicago. um And yeah, as as you said, like he was impoverished. He was in and out of foster care.
00:11:49
Speaker
And he kind of pieced together an income by running errands for like notorious gangsters, including Al Capone. Just like little mini, nothing big, but like just little little errands.
00:12:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So in Chicago, he joined the Scrap Iron and Junk Handlers Union. So this gets into crazy mob stuff too that like I only kind of understand. But the mob and the union were closely tied. In fact, like the mob took over this specific union. Which was common. It was very common for for mobs and unions, which I don't fully understand. But okay to be connected. Because I knew i know that. And when when we get into ah RFK also, like I know that. I just never understood why. he's So I'm with you on that. Okay, good.
00:12:40
Speaker
It's not just me. So when the mob took over, they forced Ruby out through his adulthood. Jack Ruby started a few like cheap, simple businesses with his siblings, just trying to like make some money and they all failed.
00:12:55
Speaker
He entered the air force in 1943, where he beat a Sergeant for calling him a, and I'm very sorry, but I'm, I'm, This is what he was called. A, quote, Jew bastard.
00:13:08
Speaker
He was, Jack Ruby was incredibly proud and incredibly defensive about being Jewish. Besides this incident, he was really well-liked in the military, besides beating up your sergeant.
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, he served three years in the military. i mean, he's, his entire career Military career was all in the continental US. He never saw a foreign combat. And he was honorably discharged in 1946.
00:13:36
Speaker
Shortly after, in 1947, he and his sister moved to Dallas where he was going to help her run a nightclub. Now, there's a theory. We've got a little conspiracy, EE.
00:13:50
Speaker
that the Chicago mob sent him there to monitor mob activity in Dallas. But he was never mentioned in any reports about organized crime at the time at all, so probably not, but, you know. Okay, let mean we maybe agree on, disagree on, agree to disagree. Yeah.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. Michael Belbener previously worked for the mob... um Of note, this is when he changed his name shortly after being discharged from the military. and then this is when he changed his name to Jack Ruby.
00:14:26
Speaker
And so this is around the time he moved. I don't know. little strange changed his name right then. Well, it's I think it sounds flashier as like a nightclub owner. i think it sounds.
00:14:38
Speaker
Okay. well we could yeah um So at this time, he became a fixture in the Dallas nightclub scene. In 1963, he was running a strip club called The Carousel.
00:14:51
Speaker
He was in deep debt. He had a hair-trigger violent temper, and he had no friends because he was terribly insecure. It was said, though, that he did get along well with his dancers. It was implied that he could be gay, which was never verified.
00:15:10
Speaker
It was suggested that his sexual orientation may have contributed to the fact that he was a little bit more respectful of his dancers than many other strip club owners of the day.
00:15:22
Speaker
However, the people who he worked with, the dancers in the club, reported that he could appear mentally unstable sometimes. Jack was a cop groupie, loving having police around. But because of this, they took care of him and watched out for him.
00:15:39
Speaker
Okay, I'm going to take just a little, I mean, let's just think about this in a little bit different way. The Dallas police officers were often seen in his club. They received free drinks and often were seen leaving with bottles of alcohol.
00:15:52
Speaker
In return, the officers kind of looked the other way and sometimes acted as fixers for Jack Ruby and his nightclub. um he was arrest He was arrested multiple times for offenses, like kind of small offenses, like concealing, like carrying a concealed weapon. liquor law violations and assault, but the charges were always dropped. So maybe a little bit more of a, like me you know, I think it was a win-win solution or situation for the two. Like he looked, they looked the other way. he um you know, provided them with favors and kept quiet to their families and such about them being there off hours.
00:16:34
Speaker
And i I also think like, cause he is connected to organized crime as well, but not deeply that we know.
Ruby's Connection to JFK
00:16:41
Speaker
Like, I think almost like Lee, he just wanted to be a part of something and he was maybe a little bit more like gregarious than Lee Harvey Oswald. So like he could be a cop groupie and they're just like, you know what? He helps us out. He gets us, but we'll take care of him. It's okay. Let him hang around.
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah, and remember, like, we have CIA informants, which, you know, that can mean a lot on the spectrum of what he was doing. So, you know, it was said that he still was a CIA informant, like, you know, for the mob, how that fits in. You know, it could have been one time, we couldve been that was very common at the time for, so, yeah.
00:17:26
Speaker
You know, we have to keep that in mind, too. Yeah. So he was connected, as I said, to organized crime, who had their hands in the nightclub scene throughout the country. There's even a tangential connection with Jimmy Hoffa, as well as the New Orleans crime figures that we kind of talked a little bit about before when. Lee was in New Orleans. Yeah. um So Jack Ruby was verified to have traveled to New Orleans in June of 1963, which is that summer before JFK was assassinated. um he claimed he was there to recruit new entertainment for the club. And that is also the summer that lee Oswald spent there. And there are tons of conspiracy theories that revolve around this time in New Orleans that like are so many to get into. It's it's it's crazy. Yeah.
00:18:21
Speaker
So Jack Ruby deeply loved and respected JFK because he thought he was good for American Jews. Ruby was at the Dallas Morning News when the assassination happened. So he got immediate information as reports came into the newspaper office.
00:18:39
Speaker
He took Jack's... Hold on. I'm going to start calling Jack Ruby, Ruby. And I might slip back and forth with Jack and JFK. I'm going to try to do JFK to keep it keep it straight, guys. Just bear with me.
00:18:53
Speaker
So Ruby took JFK's death incredibly hard. He kind of started turning up everywhere following the assassination, almost considering himself like a deputized reporter. Like, I really think some of him is just like...
00:19:08
Speaker
inserting himself into a lot kind of thinking he was more important than he was or it could have been a cover right because this made him familiar to the reporters yes so i mean because there was this large pool of reporters surrounding like lee oswald's movements um um Yeah, like I think he could have been using this as a cover to get close to him. First of all, I'm going to go back to it is really weird that all these reporters were allowed to be so close to the Oswald, I think. So he was actually captured on camera. i kind of mentioned this before, multiple times after the arrest, when Oswald was being taken into custody after the arrest at the Texas Theater in Oak Cliff.
00:19:58
Speaker
And during the media escorts at the Dallas police station, we talked about how he was at the press conference and then yeah which was midnight on the 22nd that's where he was filmed on the table at the back of the room so the saturday after the assassination ruby caught a glimpse of what he believed was a smirking oswald which infuriated him now to me this still could be narrative and
00:20:28
Speaker
I mean, it all could be. You're right. That's the thing. Like, everything can be narrative. The following day, Sunday, Ruby woke up with a bit of a hangover. One of his dancers called him, asking for money that he owed her.
00:20:43
Speaker
He got up and went to the Western Union next to the police station. So back to the transfer that's happening. Death threats, of course, were constant from the moment that Oswald was arrested. But despite this, it was decided to bring him through the garage to allow for room for all of the reporters.
00:21:03
Speaker
The transfer was scheduled for 10 a.m., but was running late. And you spoke about the the vehicle that was decided to use. So that most likely is the cause of the initial delay, I'm guessing. Yeah, I'm sure that was part of it. Of note, when Ruby made the transfer via Western Union to the dancer, it was stamped with the time, which was, and I want to say 10, 16. It was after 10 o'clock. And that's been used as piece of evidence that it was not preplanned because Oswald was scheduled to be moved at 10 a.m., And so, you know, if he was planning this, you know, presumably he would have been there by 10.
00:21:53
Speaker
Before then, yeah. um Also, shout out to, listen, I'm not going to give a lot of shout outs on this, but shout outs to Jack Ruby for creating an environment that his dancer could call and be safe to request the money that she was owed and he did it. Yeah. And she was
The Murder of Oswald
00:22:07
Speaker
in Fort Worth. He could have driven him driven it to her, but i mean, was little bit of a long drive He took care of his dancers. yeah I think he was always. he took care of his dancers.
00:22:17
Speaker
So by 11 a.m., Oswald was told that it was time, but he asked for a sweater. So this is the thing I was talking about that I think is hilarious. He the police brought him some sweaters and he was like fussing about them.
00:22:33
Speaker
He didn't like what he brought. or He was like trying to decide the color he liked of which sweater he was going to take. I mean, he was a little bit of a fashionable guy. Yes.
00:22:44
Speaker
However, this, of course, caused them to run even later.
00:22:50
Speaker
The transfer begins. Oswald was handcuffed to an officer, making it impossible for him to duck if fired upon unless he like pulled the officer down somehow. But we know he was pretty tiny. Or if the officer ducked and him down. Okay, this strikes me as the weirdest thing. And maybe it was practice of the time. Yeah, I have no idea. But oh my goodness. I know. Can imagine? I can't.
00:23:14
Speaker
it just seems a little crazy to me can you imagine being the officer i don't know this just seems like an odd practice it's so feels like there should be like something better than being right do i agree well and the officer did too because he said quote if someone shoots you i hope they're as good of a shot as you are what a witty officer oh goodness When Ruby heard that the transport was going down, he decided he was fated to kill Oswald.
00:23:46
Speaker
Ruby slipped past the barricade and waited amongst the reporters. He only had to wait a few seconds before Lee was brought down. This would be the world's first.
00:23:57
Speaker
This is like such a to me, the way I wrote it sounds like it's like the world's first. But it's like, no, just this is the first time it ever happened on television that someone was killed. Yeah. There was supposed to be a car waiting, but it hadn't arrived yet.
00:24:11
Speaker
So Oswald and the officer he was handcuffed to, of course, hesitated. And he was quick. Like, he was quick getting to Oswald. It has been said that the way he shot him was... ah i mean, it was in kind of, like, the gut area. Which, just, I mean, not to be biased, but was a mob style of how they, you know, generally speaking, killed people. um
Ruby's Trial and Mental Decline
00:24:37
Speaker
And then, I don't know, if there's a whole weird thing about how he was holding his gun yeah and his fingers was straight through the
00:24:44
Speaker
down trigger area and how this again is like considered like the way assassins hold their guns. That seems like a lot extra detail, but hey. Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:57
Speaker
You know, so Ruby jumped forward and yelled, quote, you killed my president, you rat and fired point blank range. Ruby thought he would be heralded as a hero saying, quote, I'm Jack Ruby. You all know me.
00:25:12
Speaker
Oswald was rushed to Parkland Hospital, the hospital where doctors had just treated JFK not 48 hours ago. Some of the doctors refused to treat him in the same trauma room that they had treated JFK.
00:25:25
Speaker
And Oswald was declared dead less than 48 hours after he was arrested. And to note, interestingly... Oswald, Officer Tippetts, and JFK were all buried on the same day that day after. oh wow.
00:25:46
Speaker
I didn't know that. I didn't know about Tippetts. Oswald was buried in Fort Worth the day after he was murdered. No one showed up to the burial, not even the minister who said he would do the service, I suppose, other than Lee's family.
00:26:02
Speaker
There were reporters there who ended up having to serve as pallbearers because nobody else was there. Ruby said that he killed Oswald to spare Jackie from the pain of a trial, as well as that he, quote, wanted to show the world that a Jew had guts.
00:26:21
Speaker
For Ruby's trial, his defense wanted to focus on his and his family's history of mental health, but Ruby refused. Instead, They used the defense that Jack Ruby had been an epileptic state for several days and pulling the gun and shooting was a seizure.
00:26:40
Speaker
So just to get in a little bit. So Ruby's attorney was actually a very high-powered, colorful, like influential, and very famous attorney named Melvin Belli.
00:26:56
Speaker
he was kind of an He was a very interesting character. He had previously or had also represented Muhammad Ali, the Rolling Stones, and Zsa Zsa Gabor, among other se celebrities.
00:27:10
Speaker
Oh, wow. It was really important that Ruby be convicted of murder with malice versus murder without malice.
00:27:22
Speaker
And the reason being, if you're convicted a murder with malice, that's the death penalty. um Murder without malice carries a lighter sentence. so that So most of the trial had gone to proving not necessarily that he didn't murder him.
00:27:41
Speaker
That was pretty obvious. But that... It was more of a last minute, well, seizure or act. Even crime of passion. but yeah Exactly. Probably could be. And not something that was pre-planned. That being said, the district attorney argued that Ruby had stalked Oswald and that there was a calculated intent and and he did murder him with malice.
00:28:11
Speaker
which, as you said, was he was found guilty of um and scheduled you know to within an hour. These attorneys were so interesting. And what you do learn at the time is like a great attorney seems to be the one who can speak clearly loudly who is a larger than life character um has a lot to do with personality and pulling um the jury along with you so yep uh jack ruby was found guilty and given the death penalty in less than an hour quick he was yeah very quick he was taken to prison where he unraveled quickly He would try to kill himself several times.
Conspiracy Theories: Ruby and MKUltra
00:29:02
Speaker
He was rushed to the hospital in 1966 with pneumonia, where doctors found cancer in his liver, lungs, and brain. Okay, so a big area of like like conspiracy theory here.
00:29:15
Speaker
It was said, and this gets really like deep, that evil powers were trying to create an injection That created cancer that apparently they plan to use on Castro. But that Jack Ruby was injected with something while he was in prison. And it could have been this particular, you know, seems a little, this one seems pretty far fetched.
00:29:46
Speaker
But I'm going to throw it out there. going to throw it out there. oh my gosh. We're so funny because I'm like, well, Alan Dulles was, like hiring Nazis to make all these plans.
00:30:00
Speaker
I mean, and there were, there were experiments going on, like tied to new Orleans. I know that one seems a little crazy to me, but I just love the ones that, that I'm like, that's insane. And you're like, well, here's why it's reasonable. And then I'm like, listen, I can the government wanting to make this at the time.
00:30:21
Speaker
I love that. I love how we see things totally different. I know. I'm not. No, all that to say, I don't think that happened. let's Just make that very clear. But maybe you're good. I wouldn't put it past the government in the 60s to be trying to make something like that.
00:30:37
Speaker
ah Jack Ruby died from a blood clot in 1967. When he died, he did have an appeal coming up. Okay, so this gets a little weird. This gets a little like.
00:30:49
Speaker
Going back to some MKUltra stuff. While in prison, Ruby was visited by, um so i can't remember how to say this, Jollyon, Jollyon, J-O-L-Y-O-N, West.
00:31:02
Speaker
Of note, his like nickname was Jolly West. Yes. well That's easier to say. Okay. And it sounds creepy. Yeah, right. He was a psychiatrist and a consultant for the CIA, right?
00:31:16
Speaker
who at the time, as were just talking about, was helping pioneer research into into brainwashing techniques that led to MKUltra. He actually had worked as a medical officer in the U.S. Air Force for a number of years, and he became involved in research about the use of LSD, including the use of, like, using it against the enemy. Yeah.
00:31:42
Speaker
Yeah. His specialty of research was focused on prisoners of war and figuring out why American prisoners of war would admit to crimes or involvement that was untrue. so it's just kind of creepy.
00:32:06
Speaker
Also, side note... He actually had a little experiment where he injected this Tusco, the elephant. and i don't know if this was live on TV, but people saw it. With LSD. He miscalculated the dose and the elephant like died like right then.
00:32:29
Speaker
Immediately like drop dead. Yeah. I mean, you know, a little embarrassment. Yeah. Yeah. So after one of Ruby's suicide attempts, West was sent to speak with him.
00:32:41
Speaker
West said that Ruby was unreliable and in an acute psychotic state and was unfit to testify at his appeal due to his mental instability. So I bring this up because it kind of goes back to the possibility that Ruby was used by the CIA as a patsy to keep Oswald from becoming a communist figurehead by going to trial.
00:33:03
Speaker
i mean, going to say I think Ruby was used as something for somebody. I don't know who. Yeah. I don't know how, but I do think he was pursued. I think he had a mission to kill Lee Harvey Oswald.
00:33:20
Speaker
My guess is to keep him quiet. Yeah. And I just think anytime we see the CIA who were involved with MK ultra anywhere in the vicinity of anything, I'm,
00:33:35
Speaker
There are questions and they should like there should be more questions asked. Yeah. And I don't know if there ever be answers because it is such a weird mind game.
Was Oswald an Intelligence Operative?
00:33:47
Speaker
i mean i just don't know that it will ever be explained or it can be. Yeah, I don't think so. So let's talk about the aftermath of the assassination and some, we're going to get super conspiracy theory next episode, but let's talk about some of the ones related to just kind of Oswald and that could be possible motives, kind of conspiracy light. um Can I like go back a little bit? Because I have very strong ah opinions about Lee Harvey Oswald. I spent a lot of time researching him and I find him a very interesting character that I really believe may have been mischaracterized all these years. So can I give a little bit of my thoughts on him?
00:34:35
Speaker
Okay. So I'm going to say this. I, this is personal opinion. i am no in any way expert, no journalist who's fully done complete research, but I have done. I mean, I you have read a lot of books. I mean, I feel like I've dug into this. So I personally think Lee Oswald was an American like plant or some kind of intelligence operative that was sent to the USSR.
00:35:06
Speaker
um I think he was possibly part of like a U.S. s counterintelligence program. Like there was one, like a program, like such as one known as like Operation Shocker um or codenames Cassidy's Run, which is where this type of thing happened. We sent over basically what was deemed a defector, but was really over there as a spy.
00:35:37
Speaker
We called them like they were often called dangles um or provocations. And with like, so when they planted these fake defectors, they sent a mix of like low risk, real life informants and high value fake intelligence, like to mislead the military research, the USSR.
00:36:00
Speaker
ah The goal was to waste Soviet resources, create paranoia, and uncover like deep Soviet sleeper agents operating in the US. So what they would often do is like offer up intelligence. Like they would go over, pretend they were defectors, like have some intelligence that what they would offer up. um to make themselves seen legit, but that, you know, that, that information could either be false or just like really not that and important.
00:36:40
Speaker
And this is kind of what, according to Marina's book, what kind of happened, like Lee, Lee, went over and offered up information on the U2 spy plane, but like,
00:36:53
Speaker
The Russians deemed it like it wasn't really that important. But like, okay, we'll keep him around. i don't know. So and the reason I kind of am led down this route is like when when also I was in the Marines, he was a radar operator. He went to he was stationed at The Atsugi base in Japan, where they were like secretly working on the U-2 spy plane missions, something the USSR was very um paranoid about, or really wanted information. So the theory would be that Oswald would was in USSR to trade operational details of this U2 program to the Soviets to solidify his cover and gain acceptance.
00:37:45
Speaker
Now, here's my theory. This is what I'm basing it on. Number one, the ease at which he secured like a Soviet visa. Just personally, I've gotten a Soviet visa. The entire process now took months and months, was very expensive. And you had to show a lot of proof of... Like anywhere you had traveled anywhere in the world in the last several years. Anyways, that's just a side story. Yeah.
00:38:13
Speaker
But he got this Soviet visa when he was in Moscow. He stayed in luxury hotels, And when he did eventually return to the U.S., s which seemed kind of easy and like the U.S. s generally is a little more skeptical about these defectors coming back to the U.S., he was actually granted a loan to return like for his travel expenses by the U.S.,
00:38:41
Speaker
I don't know. That whole broken arm thing. I don't know if we've talked about that. While Oswald was in the USSR, like he had some like weird, like he broke his arm in an effort to stay in Russia. They like gave him medical care because they didn't want it to look bad. don't know. It just seemed a little sketchy to me. Is this the su suicide, like the slashed wrists?
00:39:05
Speaker
That's what I read, that it was this, like, he had slashed his wrists and the, like, the USSR was like, we can't send him back like this. That'll reflect badly on us. And the US s is like, we can't take him back. He defected. Like, that looks bad on us.
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah. I it was just kind of odd, right? Like, it was just an odd thing to have happen. And then then weird that that it just seemed like it was an effort to stay in the USSR for prolonged well I mean, actually, which he admits to, but I don't
Oswald's Return to the U.S. and CIA Ties
00:39:34
Speaker
know.
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah. We talked about that way back when also that there's something sketchy about it. ah So while he was in the Marines, well, as a child, he was always like very obsessed with spy, ah ah spy novels. Oh, that's minor. I do get that. He dropped out of high school very early to join the Marines 17 and which, you know, was like his mom had to like sign up, sign a particular like sign so that he could get in. Normally it would be 18.
00:40:03
Speaker
He reported for recruit training in San Diego. And there's speculation that he was sent to the um Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, while stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station in El Toro, California.
00:40:22
Speaker
Okay, this is a huge part of why I think this is... he there's something fishy on going on. I cannot understate how weird it is that I think this guy self-taught himself Russian through like a book.
00:40:41
Speaker
Come on now. yeah Like that is to, there's no Duolingo in the 1960s. Yeah, that is to me just like the weirdest thing. And I mean, Russian out of all things.
00:40:53
Speaker
And, you know, by all accounts was not like amazing, but good enough to like go to Russia and survive. Okay. And per like Marina's book, I mean, it he was able to communicate. i mean, without seemingly too much of a problem.
00:41:10
Speaker
I think that is so strange. Like even that one thing makes me skeptical of this whole defecting. So, um and then while he was in the military, he had ah another, like that, a self-inflicted gun so gunshot wound.
00:41:26
Speaker
Again in the wrist. um And he was, which was weird. And he was sent away for two weeks for recovery. After that, he was court-martialed for KP duty. and then he attacked the sergeant he believed responsible for the KP punishment. And he was court-martialed a second time and put in the break for 28 days.
00:41:48
Speaker
Like to me, this is giving excuses for why he would be taken away from normal duty. That's just me. Like what he was doing during that time to me could have been, i don't know, could have been his language training or whatever else training that he needed do.
00:42:09
Speaker
be pulled away. But i it could have all been looked at as excuses for him being gone. Yeah, it takes me back to once again, I'm going keep repeating this, that he learned Russian during the year of 1959, like from a book or something. That he had the money to get to Russia once he, so once he was done in the military, we talked about the fact that he got out early because his mom got hit in the head with a candy jar.
00:42:39
Speaker
And he had to go take care of her. But then was only home for like... a month or two. He had saved up the money to get to Russia, which was said to be like all of his savings from the Marines.
00:42:51
Speaker
And it was $1,500, which that's a lot of money back then. Seems a little weird that he would be able to save up that much, but okay.
00:43:02
Speaker
um And then that that like US, s when he came back, gave him a repatriation loan of nearly $450 to return to the u s Okay, I'm going to keep going. Sorry. When he came back to the US, we always have a hard time saying this name. George de Mournchil introduced himself to Oswald like within a month or so of him of Oswald coming back in 1962. He was like his only friend. He was his mentor. He was a guide. They spoke all the time.
00:43:39
Speaker
he was kind of a wealthy man who really took Oswald like under his wing and just kind of weirdly showed up. um This gentleman definitely had CIA ties, spoke fluent Russian and like they would say when they spent time, their time was often so ah like they would spend their time speaking about day-to-day life in Russia and politics. Yeah.
00:44:07
Speaker
I just think that's really weird that this person just showed up in his life. And to me, it seems yeah a little bit like a possible handler, like FBI, CIA handler.
00:44:20
Speaker
Then from there, George introduced him to like Lee and Marina to Ruth Payne because George had to leave for an assignment in Haiti.
00:44:32
Speaker
Now, Ruth Payne was an American who's again, Spoke Russian. Yeah. I don't know. Odd. um She was never known to work directly for the CIA, but she had a lot of close family ties to intelligence personnel, which is really common in the CIA. Her sister was employed by the CIA under military cover.
00:44:58
Speaker
Her father worked for the Agency of International Development, and an organization known to be a cover for the, for the CIA. And then her husband was employed by bell helicopter, which is a like required major security clearance. His stepfather designed the first bell helicopter. He was also from the Cabot and Forbes family um had a like hundreds of thousand dollar trust fund.
00:45:29
Speaker
And they lived a very simple life in Irving, Texas in a small house. Don't know what that means, but just a little bit weird. And those are all the reasons that to me, like I really think that Oswald was somehow connected to intelligence. What that meant or entailed, I don't know if that was if he was working in the CIA if he was working i don't know if he was like a double agent who like turned on and was like a Russian asset um it is said that Marina his wife may have also been an asset for Russia or for the CIA I don't know but i like I cannot believe there was not an intelligence connection
00:46:22
Speaker
Yeah, like element at the very least Yes, I do not believe he defected to Russia All this happened The US took him back Like it just doesn't make sense Helped him to get back Something was going on and i And I don't believe he was a full communist sympathizer. I feel like that was front. Because actually, even like even if you read Marina's book, he didn't like love Russia. like He kind of, like once he was there, thought...
00:46:53
Speaker
Okay, wait a minute. This whole communism thing is not all it's cracked to be. This is not great. So it's hard to believe he was a full-on communist sympathizer, which he was depicted as, um you know, in the media. and And kind of that was given his reason for, you know, why he would have been motivated Yeah.
00:47:14
Speaker
yeah do you have an opinion on this? I'm just curious. ah I don't, it's one of the things like, I don't know. The George of it all is crazy.
00:47:25
Speaker
I don't know. ah And I think we talked a little bit about this before we started recording. Like there is so much I don't think we're ever going to know.
00:47:35
Speaker
True. Yes. The like Ruth Payne popping up all the time is so weird. Like there's just so much that's so weird. Yeah.
00:47:46
Speaker
but could also be kind of explained away as like, she was just being nice. Ruth being like, come live with me and I'm going to take care of you.
00:47:57
Speaker
Again, like, yeah, just right. It's just weird that somebody then swoops in your life, takes care of you, like drives out to new Orleans to pick you up. I
Oswald's Motivations and Mental Health
00:48:08
Speaker
mean, right. She was a great, baby maybe she was a good, maybe she was just Really. big Like, I do. I do really believe um there was mental health stuff going on that the Mexico trip for me is like he was kind of delusional. Right. Like that to me. I mean, I think it's verified it happened.
00:48:28
Speaker
If it happened. I've seen it. I've seen it's verified some things. There's don't know if it's verified. I mean, Marina's first. Yeah. When she was first interviewed, said, no, he didn't go. He said, no, he didn't go. There was pictures that like didn't really look like him. There was recordings that didn't really look like him.
00:48:49
Speaker
I don't know. See, I've seen. Yeah. The stuff I've read is like, yeah, of course they said no. Cause like. Yeah. um No, i've seen I see the, what is it, last podcast on the left, ah which is like the majority of the stuff I got is from that podcast, but then there are sources.
00:49:07
Speaker
So I'm not just listening to a podcast reporting back. I'm looking at their sources too. So there was stuff in there that like it was documented. Well, it's questionable, I think. But I'm sorry, back to, I'm sorry, what did you think? I'm sorry, how did you interpret that? No, I...
00:49:22
Speaker
That he there was some kind of like breaking with reality. I think that and the assassination of the white nationalist guy. The shooting attempt like to me, it just.
00:49:35
Speaker
To me, it feels like there was some mental health stuff happening. There is stuff like. again, if that did happen, that was only it was only the word of Marina.
00:49:46
Speaker
No, it wasn't. there was no There was no other proof of that. It was the word of his wife. that i There's definitely... That happened.
00:49:58
Speaker
Whether it was him or not, I don't know. No, no, no. There was, in a sense, an assassination. There was an attempt on Walker's life. But there's not really a lot of time. I mean, the only thing, the only reason he's ever been tied to it is because...
00:50:16
Speaker
Marina said it happened, um but she said, like, while she could have been under duress, this is after the assassination to go back. So, see, that's, this is the thing, too. You and I have read vastly different things. Like, we've used different sources.
00:50:32
Speaker
So, like, I've read, i mean, yes. I mean, here, and here's the thing. There's so many sources and so many different things out there. What you say is the is the narrative that is out there.
00:50:46
Speaker
Like, that is what's in the history. No, go on. thought I was waiting for you to say something else. yes Yeah. No, I mean, period. That that is the narrative. I just now question narratives a bit more because...
00:51:00
Speaker
But here's here's my slight pushback is you question some narratives. Like you you haven't questioned Marina's narratives too much.
00:51:09
Speaker
I do. i I question parts of them. i I question her, definitely question everything she said after the assassination attempt. And to be fair, Marina's book and account was considered... um very pro like the story that the government put out so it like it was kind of like more of pro-narrative story it was not a she was not yeah oh no she never she wasn't that it yeah so i mean i do believe like also i mean she talked about like
00:51:49
Speaker
you know, him being abusive and, and I, I, but I believe all that. I mean, I don't question the dynamics of their marriage. i I don't question any of that.
00:52:01
Speaker
Anything that happened, ah but I do think she was, i think she could have been an asset, CIA asset. And I do think anything she said After the assassination, she said potentially under duress because. Sure. So that's what I question. Yeah. And so I do question that stuff. I mean, she was the one who didn't say he went to Mexico and then changed her, like then changed it to, he did go to Mexico. So no, I mean, I don't question everything that Marina, or I don't accept everything Marina said. Nope.
00:52:37
Speaker
I just heard your phone scare me. So, and so anyways, go on. I forgot where we were. Oh, the rest of your point, the rest of why you, Oh, I was just going to say, so kind of like, I just don't know.
00:52:49
Speaker
I think that's where I, I don't know. Um, I do think he thought very highly of himself, um, thought him himself to be kind of destined for bigger things than he was being used for. Agreed. I agree with you on that.
00:53:04
Speaker
I think there's definitely mental health stuff. ah I don't, especially there's like mommy issues for sure. Agreed. So yeah, I guess like, I don't know.
00:53:16
Speaker
All of those things could also collude and make a perfect candidate for the CIA to use for something. Yeah. And to be clear, i am still not saying i think he had nothing to do with this. Oh yeah.
00:53:30
Speaker
ah but what I am saying is I think he was involved in an intelligence how that panned out that could be either way that could be he was involved in intelligence did this and then the government really had to carry yeah like cover up because whoa whoa whoa we fully missed this this was our guy Yeah. So I do want to clarify. I'm not saying he was an innocent guy. oh sure. yeah i think he was involved in intelligence. I think he was a plant in Russia. Yeah.
00:54:02
Speaker
So, yeah. No, I just, I think it's one of the things we'll never know. because there are so many things playing at once as we'll get into with the conspiracies episodes. It's like, oh my God. Yeah. ah Crazy. And so let's, i want to talk about quick, like some of the theories as to like what the motive is, like some of the offered up like theories that have floated around. Okay. ah So first is the assassination was an act of self-destruction for Lee Harvey Oswald.
Conspiracy Theories: Oswald and JFK Assassination
00:54:34
Speaker
This kind of goes back to like the mental health of it all. Like he never fit in He was always an interloper. And so the idea would be like the murder was like an explosion of like homicidal and suicidal kind of rage.
00:54:49
Speaker
So that's one of the things. In terms of like Oswald being part of conspiracy, take this with a grain salt because I don't, we'll get into the Warren Commission way more next steps or the next couple episodes. Like I don't really super believe anything the Warren Commission like quote investigated. um They found no evidence that he was part of a conspiracy, but that's the least surprising thing I've ever seen in my entire life.
00:55:13
Speaker
Of course, the Warren Commission is going to say he's not part of a conspiracy. and And let's remember, conspiracy is a very broad. Yeah. Broad idea. So, you know, part of, think he was somehow part of it. Like, I'm not disagreeing. that i don't. Right. Because that, could I mean, the conspiracy could be the cover. It could be any portion of this. Yeah. So I don't disagree at all with that. Well, and.
00:55:43
Speaker
Like the Warren Commission, I think the best like the best outcome for them was that he was just like a crazy lone gunman who loved communism. And so that's what like the Warren Commission decided. think that was what it is. I think it worked for them.
00:55:59
Speaker
To say that. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like it totally worked for them. They they fit what they needed fit. So I don't take much of the Warrant Commission at face value. Yeah. And my and my thought is, um you know, we learn about if people like were CIA informants, if they were actually a CIA agent.
00:56:17
Speaker
That never comes out. Like, that is secret forever. So, yeah. And I i mean, i I know I'll get into this in my summary at the end. Anything Oswald was could be a cover, like, for something else. So I just think it's so hard. Like, i I don't know, yeah, what he was. I don't think he was a communist sympathizer, though. I really don't in my heart. No, I don't think so either. I think that was, so I think that, for some, something but strikes me as,
00:56:47
Speaker
a cover in that way, whether it was for the government's sake or it was for his sake, something doesn't seem right about that. So this kind of goes without another proposed theory of motive or whatever is Oswald's pro communism was a ruse planned by us intelligence to infiltrate left-wing groups And he may have been trying to expose their plots.
00:57:17
Speaker
This gets... And this is where you go. Like, this is where you get your mind blown, right? Because it could go either way. He could be trying to infiltrate left wing. He'd be able to somehow or another get in, like, right wing. He could have been pro...
00:57:32
Speaker
Cuba he could have been on the side of the I mean there's just like to me this is where you're like this is where my mind can't start wrapping around anything because right it could go anywhere it could go anywhere and uh when we do the conspiracy episodes next time okay I know i'm general I'm just but I'm I'm like piggybacking off of that like what we'll do is I'm just gonna go through like I literally pulled up a list of like what are theories about JFK's assassination and I like researched each one and was like yeah so kind of like this I'm going to give like the information I found but I'm not going to be like this is what happened and this is why it happened it's just like this is what's out there going to let you read and I will stop i will stop with my whole counterpoint unless I just can't yeah because I'm not let's make it like like I said you know I'm not suggesting any of these are true I'm just saying what's out there because some of them are like
00:58:28
Speaker
I don't think he was infiltrating left-wing groups. I don't think he liked left-wing groups, but I don't think he liked white right-wing groups. I don't think that's... So there is a story floating in the ether of an anonymous FBI informant who claimed that Oswald once visited the FBI with a letter that outlined some sort of threat, some sort of threat to a government official.
00:58:53
Speaker
I don't know if it's the president exactly. i don't know anything like this. But the FBI... informant said that his supervisor took this letter and destroyed it, meaning the FBI knew that Oswald was planning something.
00:59:07
Speaker
Again, not saying anything. This is just a guy who said a thing. This next one leads into your theory. The ability to return to the U.S. from the Soviet Union with no difficulty, even with the repatriation loan from the State Department, that leads to the belief that he was himself a CIA agent.
00:59:28
Speaker
Or a CIA asset or something like that. So his mother, Marguerite, insisted that her son had been recruited to be sent to Russia.
00:59:39
Speaker
And as crazy as she is, i don't know why I believe that a little bit. Because as crazy as she is, i think she's a little too dumb to not say that.
00:59:50
Speaker
Take it over to Will. Right. Right. Well, she took it. This is why. Because she's, this is why everybody thinks she's crazy. Because then she went on to say that Oswald should be buried in Arlington National Cemetery for being a hero of the assassination.
01:00:07
Speaker
Then you're like, okay, Marguerite, sit down. When New Orleans DA Jim Garrison brought Clay Shaw to trial for conspiracy to kill the president...
01:00:17
Speaker
He surmised that Oswald was a CIA agent being used as a scapegoat, going as far as saying that Oswald, quote, genuinely was probably a hero. Now, I'm going to say that doesn't necessarily mean to me, that doesn't necessarily mean he was a hero for assassinating JFK. Yeah. He may have been a hero his other, the the other things he has done for the the country, is military service. That nobody can talk about or know or whatever. Yeah. yeah so I don't think he was saying, to me, I don't think he was saying it was for the US. And so this is the the JFK movie, the Oliver Stone movie. That's this plot. um
01:00:57
Speaker
And as you said, the CIA has policy of never confirming or denying possible agents.
Conclusion and Next Episode Tease
01:01:02
Speaker
Yeah. I think undoubtedly, I think like without a doubt, Lee Harvey Oswald being murdered, which obviously meant he didn't go to trial for JFK's murder, I think has led directly to like the conspiratorial space that we find ourselves in today.
01:01:21
Speaker
I think if he had gone to trial and been found guilty and sentenced probably to death, whether or not there was more happening, I think if that had happened,
01:01:33
Speaker
people wouldn't be crazy like us being like, but it's this, but what if it's this, but what if it's, it would have been like cut and dry. This guy did it. We found him guilty. This is a part of history. Let's move on.
01:01:44
Speaker
Yep. I agree. Yeah. Look at that. We end we end on a full agreement, right? We did it. We're done talking about Lee Harvey Oswald, except we're not done talking about it. We're talking done deep diving him.
01:01:56
Speaker
he i and I will say, I think he's a very interesting character. Yeah. And I think, yeah, kind of as we keep saying, like, there's just so much that could be taken in so many different ways we are never going to know. And we'll talk more about that next week.
01:02:12
Speaker
All righty. Yay. All right. Yes. Join us next week. We're going to get into some conspiracy theories and we'll talk about like weird evidence stuff and all the things that have colluded to make it so we'll never know what happened.
01:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, I hate to say it in the end. Spoiler alert. We're not going to have, we we don't have an answer to. ah No, no answer. yeah Except that JFK is part of the Kennedy curse. Yes, which going back is our point.
01:02:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's the whole point. All right, well, we will head out now and join us next week. We'll talk again soon. Bye bye.
01:03:01
Speaker
you