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#26: You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf
94 Plays6 years ago
Live meditation practice? On a podcast? Yep! Podcast series host Jill James brings in two incredible guest-experts on the subject of mindfulness in safety. Former Board of Certified Safety Professionals (BCSP) President Linda Martin, and Australian triathlete-turned-social science researcher Rachael Grace, join Jill to share their passion for the subject of mindfulness. After returning from a 30-day meditation retreat, Rachael soon began training hundreds of her co-workers on the discipline—by popular demand—and was unexpectedly rewarded for her efforts improving the safety culture of her organization. Linda published an influential research paper titled The Art and Science of Mindfulness in the Practice of Safety along the pursuit of her doctoral thesis. Together, they’re changing the safety profession by introducing a powerful new idea, and leading organizations into field practice exploration.
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Transcript
Introduction
00:00:08
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by Vivid Learning Systems and the Health and Safety Institute. This is episode number 26. My name is Jill James, Vivid's Chief Safety Officer. And as a safety professional, I am wondering if you have ever said phrases like, I wish I could get my employees to pay attention, or get their mind on their jobs, or maybe I need them to be present so they don't get hurt.
Mindfulness in Safety: An Introduction
00:00:36
Speaker
I know I have, yet how do we do that? Is there an actual method to deploy that works? And the answer is, yes, there is.
00:00:45
Speaker
And we're going to hear how exactly from our guests today. Embrace yourselves because you may not have heard this before. We're talking about mindfulness and mindfulness-based safety. And this, I assure you, is not woo-woo fluffy stuff. So I hope you stick around and listen because I have two fabulous guests today.
00:01:08
Speaker
and I'd like to introduce them now.
Meet the Experts: Rachel Grace and Linda Martin
00:01:11
Speaker
Our first guest is Rachel Grace. Rachel is a corporate mindfulness speaker, trainer, and emotional intelligence leadership coach. Rachel has 20 years of personal meditation practice, training in psychology, and experience in social science research. As a consultant, Rachel works with leaders and their teams worldwide in both public and private sector, empowering professionals to master the soft skills they need to get hard results.
00:01:37
Speaker
Rachel is joining us today from her home in Brisbane, Australia, where it's a different day. And Linda, our second guest, Linda Martin is a certified safety professional, a certified industrial hygienist, a certified materials manager, and the 2018 President
00:01:55
Speaker
of the board of certified safety professionals and the chair of the certified safety professional foundation board. Linda is also a full-time faculty member and MS degree program coordinator at Keene State College and the 2018 recipient of the Marian Martin award recognizing influential women in safety. And here at the accidental safety pro podcast, Linda is the star of episode number 15. And Linda is joining us today from Indianapolis. So welcome to both of you.
00:02:24
Speaker
Thanks, Jill. So Rachel, let's start with you. And just for our listeners, Rachel is our primary speaker today. And Linda has a story to tell as well regarding how she and Rachel made a connection in this particular sphere. And Rachel, I'm wondering if you could start with your story regarding how did you come into mindfulness?
00:02:54
Speaker
Good day Jill, thanks for having me. I started with mindfulness very reluctantly about 20 years ago. I got chronic fatigue in my early 20s from over training for triathlons. I was a swimming and triathlon coach at the time and I overcooked it a bit and I got crook.
00:03:12
Speaker
And I went to a doctor who said to me at my first consult with him that unless I learned to focus my mind, I probably wasn't going to get my health back, which wasn't what I wanted to hear. And I was pretty annoyed at the time because I thought that was pretty well, confrontational thing to say, to be honest. But I was a bit desperate at the time.
From Fatigue to Focus: Rachel's Journey
00:03:32
Speaker
And so I went off to my first mindfulness class and I hated it and I suspected it was rubbish.
00:03:39
Speaker
But at that first session, all they asked me to do was to pay attention, keep my attention on my breath. And as soon as I sat down to try to do it, I noticed I couldn't. And I was pretty shocked by that. And I thought, how long has this been going on for? And I guess I recognized that there was probably some consequences for that, for my life, for my health and so on.
00:04:01
Speaker
So I stuck with it and I'm glad I did it, it did help me to get better and I got really intrigued from that experience about how we can train our mind. I'd been used to training bodies as a coach but I thought well what can happen if you train your mind and what's possible with that. So I went on and studied psychology, got a job in London at a hospital where we use mindfulness to work with patients and then
00:04:24
Speaker
When I got back to Australia I got much more into my own practice and I've started sitting long, stint meditation retreats and I did a 30 day one a couple of years, well a few years ago now. When I got back to my job after being away for 30 days and everyone started asking me where I'd been, I said I'd been on a meditation retreat, they looked at me like I was weird but then they were all so interested.
00:04:46
Speaker
And that kind of led to people asking me to start to teach when I was working a job, and I did. And then it's just gone on from there. And now I run my own business where I do this work full time. So it's been a long journey, but I was reluctant and skeptical about it at first. But now I know that it really does help.
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah. So that's how I came to it and how I've gone on that journey to be here now. Fabulous. So Rachel, but what about the safety
Mindfulness Meets Safety: A Surprising Connection
00:05:14
Speaker
piece? Like, how did you find, how did you, how did you find safety and make a connection with mindfulness and safety and what that means?
00:05:23
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's a little bit like the title to the podcast, you know, it's accidental. So, you know, I got back from this 30 day retreat, people asked me where I'd been on my holidays, I told them I'd been away meditating. And off the back of that, a lot of people asked me to teach them and then eventually it culminated in the director of my division asking me to teach our team, which I was reluctant to do.
00:05:47
Speaker
But I did and it really made a big positive impact on people, my teammates, and then it blossomed into word of mouth spreading and in a very short period of time, under a year, I'd train hundreds of people and I had a waiting list of a few hundred people to do mindfulness training with me.
00:06:04
Speaker
In the course of that experience, the occupational health and safety team within that organisation noticed what I was doing. This was an organisation that had both field staff and also office-based staff. I didn't realise, but I got nominated for a safety leadership award in that organisation because of the work
00:06:25
Speaker
that I was doing which quite unbeknownst to me was having a positive impact on not only psychological safety but people's capacity to remain safe out in the field and it was quite a surprise to me. I won this award actually when I was away on holidays. How do you accidentally win an award? How did that work?
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, well I got nominated for, I think there was a, the Occupational Health and Safety team put out a call to leaders in the organisation to hear nominations for people who are making a positive impact on the safety culture. And the director who'd initially asked me to run my first mindfulness course, she initiated it and then it got voted in by all the other senior leaders as being a really worthwhile project that had had a positive impact on safety. And so when I got back from
00:07:12
Speaker
holiday to Vietnam I found that I'd won this award it was sitting on my desk and I was really surprised that I got into conversations with the safety team there and I realised that what I'd been doing had actually kind of dovetailed into one of their initiatives which is mind on the job in that organisation which is all about keeping your attention in the moment to keep yourself safe in the field and
00:07:35
Speaker
That was my first awareness, to be honest, really explicitly about how much the work in mindfulness can be of service to the safety profession. And then it was about probably a year later when I'd left that job and started running my own business and do keynote presentations on mindfulness.
Collaboration Begins: Rachel and Linda
00:07:54
Speaker
I did a presentation to a couple of thousand people where they were in the construction and industry predominantly, but also other field-based work. I had a lot of interest off the back of that talk about how this could apply to safety.
00:08:10
Speaker
Again, I was like, wow, okay, this has really started to build some momentum. So I did a fair bit of literature research on it specifically, and that's where I found Linda. I found her article, Art and Science of Mindfulness in the Practice of Safety. I thought it was brilliant. I started referring to it and I made contact with her.
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah, accidentally have I stumbled into safety, but I'm glad that I have because it's brought me here today. And that's how I've met Linda. That's wonderful. So Linda, you authored a paper called The Art and Science of Mindfulness, which we have on our on our website at Vivid. And you can find it in some other areas too. But what was I guess, Linda, why did you write that paper? And then tell us about what it was like when Rachel reached out to you.
00:08:57
Speaker
Yeah. So that's a good question, Jill. I was asked to look at writing the paper originally by my graduate doctoral coordinator. And he works primarily in the safety management systems realm. And he said, you know, this is a really interesting area that's up and coming in safety and actually in a lot of different realms of business.
00:09:25
Speaker
And he set me on a path to do the research and we ended up writing an article about it together for the magazine and again my My interest was and Rachel will tell you this is is more theoretical. Well hers is very It's practice-based and and so when Rachel contacted me we hit it off almost immediately because I
00:09:49
Speaker
you know, I'm more kind of in that realm of research and Rachel is rubber meets the road. This is how you do this. And so I think Rachel will agree we've hit it off famously. True. Yes, confirmed.
00:10:06
Speaker
Rachel, when you stumbled upon Linda's work, were you like, oh, yes, somebody's actually done some research on this?
Mindfulness Explained: Full Awareness in Safety
00:10:16
Speaker
Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, my background in psychology is in research psychology. And so I'm a little bit of a nerd and I'm kind of there's a part of me that always wishes I was still an academic. So, you know, when I got into Linda's paper, I was not only excited to find it,
00:10:33
Speaker
because it was exactly singing from the songbook that I was singing from but you know it's a really high quality paper and I passed it on to the people that I was working with in organisations immediately and I was so excited to see that someone was making these connections.
00:10:49
Speaker
And yeah, so I had both a nerdy researcher moment and I had a moment of going, this is going to help me to, you know, communicate to the people in organisations about how this works because it was so well-written. And so, yeah, I was really excited.
00:11:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's been great and Linda's, you know, amazing. And I think because I do have that research background, you know, I can appreciate and respect what she's doing. And that's why it's been such a win because we're looking at writing a paper together and I'm looking at doing these projects, these programs in organisations.
00:11:27
Speaker
and I need people to be doing the research and the theoretical papers and I think academics need people like me who are scientifically literate and are out there working with people in organizations to make it happen and so I think it's a really beautiful partnership actually it's good yeah. Linda what does it what did it mean for you to to discover Rachel and you know the
00:11:49
Speaker
Like, like you aptly put it you are on the theory side Rachel's on the practice or whether over meets the roadside what is that been like for you to be able to see someone who brings what you started full circle.
00:12:05
Speaker
I guess when Rachel first contacted me, I was like, Oh, something, somebody else is interested in the same types of things I'm interested in. But beyond that, it's pretty exciting to see that Rachel has already kind of looked at the areas that we proposed.
00:12:24
Speaker
as far as putting mindfulness into practice in an actual field setting. And that is low dose, short sections of mindfulness. And maybe Rachel can talk about that a little bit more. But how do you adapt those traditional programs into something that will actually work for a company?
00:12:51
Speaker
Right, which I guess leads to another question, Rachel, is how does mindfulness relate to safety? Yeah, sure. Well, you know, I think it probably, if we start with a definition of mindfulness, then it's probably helps to conceptualize how it does relate to safety because I think it's pretty obvious actually. So, you know, there's heaps of definitions of mindfulness like any construct, but a simple one that I like to use is basically
00:13:20
Speaker
that mindfulness is about bringing our full awareness into this moment and accepting this moment just as it is. So when I say accepting, I don't mean approving or liking. I just mean being out of face that currently this is the reality I've got. And so that definition shares these two dimensions with pretty much all the other evidence-based definitions of mindfulness in that there's
00:13:42
Speaker
an awareness or attention element about having our awareness here and now. And there's this kind of emotional balance of mind aspect to that definition. So we're not getting reactive about what's going on, we're just accepting what's happening right now.
00:14:00
Speaker
And so, that's both a state of mind that can happen naturally and will happen naturally for everyone at different times. But all too often, that's not the case. Our mind is not thinking about what's going on in front of us. Our mind's not on the job. It's not with the person we're with. The mind's drifted off and it's thinking about something that it wants to have happened next or wishes didn't have happened yesterday.
00:14:24
Speaker
mindfulness is a state of mind, but it's also something that we can actually start to develop through dedicated practice. And when you look at safety and, you know, throw to Linda to talk more about how she appreciates that it relates to safety. My understanding is that, you know, if you don't have your mind present where you are, then it's pretty hard to be safe at a really basic level.
00:14:46
Speaker
You know, you need to have your mind on the job, your attention in the moment. If you're going to have any chance of remembering what on earth you're meant to be doing, spotting any challenges or problems that are coming up so you know how to handle them. And so it's really, it's the foundational skill. It's the internal skill that allows people to do their job safely equally with the emotional regulation part of it. You know,
00:15:13
Speaker
I'm not sure, but I imagine that a lot of accidents happen in work environments when people are distracted. And I think a lot of distraction can happen from stuff like being reactive about stressful stuff that's going on at home, stressful stuff that happened on earlier in the day. And when people are caught up reacting to events that have just happened or they're worried might happen, you know, again, it leaks resources and attention from the moment. And I think it makes us less safe.
00:15:42
Speaker
With mindfulness training we're targeting that ability to be fully present and clear-headed in the moment and as far as I understand it that's at the very root system of creating safety for individuals and then of course safe work cultures.
00:15:58
Speaker
Right, right. So Linda, can you maybe expound on that a little more as as from your view as a safety professional, what that might mean to be to be present and what what those advantages are or risks when you're not. Sure.
00:16:13
Speaker
I think what Rachel said is very true. I think one thing that I want to add to that is when you're paying attention to the right here now, the present moment, and you're doing a task, a lot of us in safety talk about, well, if you have the right training and you're focusing on the steps that you're supposed to do in a task,
00:16:40
Speaker
and you do them right every time, then you should theoretically be safe. But that's not always the case, right? Being aware in the right ear now also helps you to recognize internally and externally, instinctually,
00:16:57
Speaker
if something is not as it should seem, right? So if your mind is elsewhere, as Rachel said, wandering or thinking about what's next or thinking about yesterday, you're not as in tune with those internal and external factors that could cause you to make a different decision, despite your training.
Training the Mind: Enhancing Safety
00:17:18
Speaker
And so, you know,
00:17:21
Speaker
Everything that Rachel said plus that so it's not so much Being always in tune on doing things correctly and not being distracted but also being so attentive to and and open to the internal and external factors that you may make a different choice that in fact saves your life and
00:17:43
Speaker
You may be present enough to listen and know that gut instinct that we say, you know, like something's not right with this and being able to make a different decision.
00:17:56
Speaker
Right. Would you agree with that, Rachel? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think that's spot on. I think that the underlying skill set, the internal skill set that I work with people on in mindfulness training is to learn to notice when their mind wanders off and to be able to bring it back to the here and now. So it's awareness and choice.
00:18:16
Speaker
And in that moment, they're also developed the skills. Part of the training is learning to use that tool to de-stress on demand and to not get caught up in emotional reactivity. And so once you've got a present and a calm mind, then your situational awareness is enhanced. Your ability to be cognitively flexible is enhanced. I think that picks up on what you're saying, Linda,
00:18:42
Speaker
It's one thing when everything's going as it should, but when things start to go differently, you want to be able to pay attention to that and you want to be able to think clearly in that moment. That's where clear thinking, paying attention to what's going on and being able to de-stress is really valuable.
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of the times if things do go wrong or things don't go to plan, you know, it's one thing when it follows the script or the, you know, steps. But as Linda said, when it doesn't, then you really need to notice that you need to be able to respond appropriately, not react stressfully. And that's where, you know, mindfulness really does support safety in a really clear way, I think.
00:19:22
Speaker
Well, I certainly know as someone who practices mindfulness herself that I deploy what I do for mindfulness when I'm under stress. And yeah, it's knowing like to be able to listen to those cues of your body to say things aren't right right now. How do I come back to the present moment and then exercising those muscles that you've practiced to know how to do that?
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And it's, and it's also too, you know, there's a different type of stress, which is not just when it's peak stress, but when it's kind of like, I call it like boredom stress. You know, if you're doing a habitual task and you really know your job and you're operating as usual, it's really easy to zone out, you know, I think because it's, and so part of the benefit of mindfulness is that it, it kind of, it helps people to remain consciously choosing in the moment rather than get caught off in habitual patterns.
00:20:15
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yes, it does. I can see that being powerful in repetitive jobs. Maybe someone who's working a repetitive task or working on a line doing the same thing hundreds of thousands of times a day.
00:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. Or driving, you know, a classic one, you know, a partner's a train driver in the mines, or you know, long haul truck drivers, you know, that kind of situation. It takes a conscious effort to keep your mind on the job, and that's what mindfulness really builds up that capacity. You know, when you look at the research,
00:20:53
Speaker
There's good research that shows that it does actually improve the brain's capacity both in terms of its function but even its structure, the structural elements of the brain that are related to attention and emotional regulation. Some research shows that it actually changes those areas for the better. It grows grey matter and it actually makes a positive impact on the brain.
00:21:15
Speaker
So it gets people more focused and it gets people more present and it gets people better able to manage their their stress so that they don't dissipate energy and lose concentration in the moment.
Research and Real-World Application
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah. Right. When I was I was recently speaking with someone who's a safety
00:21:32
Speaker
professional in the trucking industry. And I was telling him about this podcast and what we're going to be talking about. And he said, I cannot wait. He said, I cannot wait to hear this. He said, because I want my drivers. This is the message. He said this is like the holy grail for me as a safety professional with drivers for exactly what you just talked about. And so he'll be very excited to hear this.
00:22:00
Speaker
He's been waiting for it. That's cool. Yeah, Linda, go ahead. I was just going to say, as we continually research on this subject and as me coming into my dissertation, there are more articles coming out on mindfulness and it's tie into distracted driving.
00:22:22
Speaker
and how it can improve the safety records of professional drivers. I mean, that's something that is coming along. Yeah. Linda, you said that there's more and more people doing research. If people are interested in looking into that and finding the research, how might they start looking or
00:22:46
Speaker
I mean, obviously you have your paper and we can draw people to that. Who else is working on this or what should they be searching?
00:22:55
Speaker
Well, I mean, at least from my perspective, I've seen a lot of papers recently that are pulling together the theoretical points, but there aren't very many papers of people actually doing the research. And I think my hope is, in the partnership with Rachel, that at some point,
00:23:19
Speaker
She picks up some pretty good companies here that are really interested in this and we can start doing some really hardcore research on Yes, this does work I would say in my estimation and I'll defer to Rachel and in her research But I see a lot of this is how we think it works But not so much large or small scale actual statistical analyses of things
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, so we're still emerging in this area. Yeah, Rachel, is that how you feel as well?
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there's always this tension in research between correlational research that happens in the field where you do something, you statistically analyze it to go, well, there's a pattern here, and we think that they're related. And that's the real world stuff that we can probably start to do in organizations. And like Linda said, I'm very keen to work with organizations who want to take a research-based approach to really uncovering the impact of mindfulness training because that work needs to be done.
00:24:21
Speaker
And on the other side, there are, as Linda said, there's more and more research coming down the end of the randomised controlled trials, which has little real world validity, if you like, but it does give really strong, robust findings for
00:24:37
Speaker
identifying that we are doing something with mindfulness. Like for example, there was a study at the University of California, they wanted to have a really high degree of experimental control and go, are we actually doing something when we're doing this mindfulness training, right? And so they had three groups and the dependent variable or the way they assessed if their interventions made a difference was they got these participants to do a simple computer task and they compared their error rate and response times, right?
00:25:05
Speaker
And the three different conditions were some got assigned to a mindfulness practice and others got assigned to a simple relaxation task or reading the paper. And what they found was that those who'd been assigned randomly to do the eight minutes of mindfulness breathing had significantly faster reaction times and significantly fewer errors on the computer task, which indicates less mind wandering compared to people who'd been in these other conditions.
00:25:32
Speaker
So when you start to get really great research like that that's done in the lab and then you start to get research that's you know the real life experiments that I'm doing with people I work with in organisations where people typically after about week three of my eight week mindfulness class go
00:25:48
Speaker
I'm starting to notice that I could bring my attention back in the meeting. I could keep my mind focused more on the job when I'm out in the field. When you start to dovetail these different domains of evidence, because I think it takes all of it really to build a case, then we're really starting to forge ahead and it's really exciting to be a part of that. I know if people are interested in some of the research that I refer to, they're welcome to email me.
00:26:15
Speaker
There's some really great papers contemplating mindfulness at work and integrative review from the Journal of Management in 2015. And there's a lot of great papers that are really starting to bring these together in addition to lenders. So yeah, I hope that answers that question. Yes, absolutely it does.
Introducing Mindfulness to Workers: Overcoming Skepticism
00:26:32
Speaker
So Rachel, when you're talking with people regarding mindfulness and safety, where do you start? Like, how do you get them interested?
00:26:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's not it's people often interested about that. So I have a signature talk. It's a one hour introduction to mindfulness, and it's called mindfulness. It's not just hippie fluffy stuff. I don't know if that title would work in the US, but it seems to work really well here in Australia because it kind of calls out the elephant in the room that says, you know, this might be rubbish. I might just be some hippie dippy person coming to, you know, talk at your team building event, but let's give it a go.
00:27:09
Speaker
And I take people on a journey in that talk where I basically share how I got into mindfulness, which is through being sick and being told to go and practice. And then I talk about the research, how there's so much research on the benefits of it these days, but then I really narrow in on two of the benefits of mindfulness that really are appropriate and important for organizations. One is on its ability to help us learn to focus better and our ability to be more resilient
00:27:39
Speaker
And I think one of the key turning points in that talk, I think is, to be honest, probably not just that I've got the personal experience. So people can tell I just didn't do a weekend workshop on mindfulness and now I'm trying to flog it off for a profit. They can tell it's genuine, you know, like I've kind of reluctantly been dragged down this path for 20 years. And so I think that helps, you know. You align with the skeptics in the room based on your work. Yeah, exactly. And to be honest, I'm okay if people are skeptical about it, so they should be.
00:28:10
Speaker
I ask people in that talk to just have an open mind, to giving it a go. So I talk to them about the science and that tends to help a lot. But I also refer to this key piece of research, which was done by researchers at Harvard. And the title of their paper is, A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind. It was done by Killingsworth. And in a nutshell, when I talk about that piece, I think it really turns people's
00:28:35
Speaker
I don't know, I think it turned some of the skeptics because what they found was that this study looked at how much our mind wanders and they found that on average 47% of the time in a really large sample size people are thinking about something other than what they are doing.
00:28:50
Speaker
So what they did was they gave people, it was an app on the phone and it asked a few questions at random intervals during the day over a course of time. And there was a number of questions, but the target questions were, what are you doing right now? And are you thinking about something other than what you're doing right now? And what they found was 47% of the time people were thinking about something other than what they were doing.
00:29:13
Speaker
When I invite people in that talk to think, as I do for your listeners, to think, well, if about half the time our mind's not where our body is, then what's the implication of that? What's the implication of that for our safety? Well, we're probably more likely to have an accident. What's the implication of that for our decision-making at a basic level?
00:29:35
Speaker
Making good decisions requires capturing all the information and if we're missing stuff because we're not present Well, we're probably unlikely to make a good decision in the moment, you know, what's the implication for our connections with other people because Most people can feel it when your mind wanders off. You're not listening to them anymore and it tends to not build relationships and communication and organizations very well and
00:29:57
Speaker
You know, when you look at the crisis of engagement in a lot of organisations, you know, I think a key thing that leaders can do is they can learn to listen and be present with their staff even more and we can learn to be present with one another because that builds trust and connection with helps engagement. So, you know, we kind of look at what's the implication of this, like who cares? And then we look at actually doing a practice where I teach people, guide them through an opportunity to experience what it's like to do an evidence-based mindfulness practice where
00:30:25
Speaker
they notice their mind wanders off, which is inevitable. But then the key thing is that they have the ability, the awareness and the skill to choose to do something about it. So rather than this thing kind of, sometimes I think the wandering mind just drags us around wherever it wants us to go. It's like, well, we can't get rid of the wandering mind. It's with us, but we want to have it in the back seat so that our conscious choosing self is in the front seat. And by giving them a practice,
00:30:50
Speaker
I do a practice for about 15 minutes in that introductory talk and so far I've done this in front of thousands and thousands of people now I say at the end can I just see an honest raise of hands who felt like who noticed that that made a difference to the state of their mind and 95, 99% of the room their hands go up every single time and so you know that's something that
00:31:15
Speaker
You can't fake that. When you get that repeatedly, that's people in the moment verifying that we did something and something changed for the better. Something shifted. Absolutely. I always make the point that I can talk about my personal story, I can talk about the research evidence, but nothing is really as important as people doing it going, yeah, that had an impact on the quality of the state of my mind. Right.
00:31:40
Speaker
Right. So in order for our listeners to sort of experience this and touch and feel what it's like and ensure that it's not hippy dippy fluffy stuff, I think we should take people on a little practice.
00:31:59
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Yeah. And we can hear in your beautiful part of the world, the birds are active outside your window. Yes. So I might just shut the window so that it's less distracting. Go ahead. Go ahead. Take a moment and do that. All right. Great. Yeah, because it's morning time here in Australia, so the birds are in the palm tree outside. So hang on two seconds.
00:32:25
Speaker
So Rachel, let's experience what a mindfulness practice is about. And if you wouldn't mind, please take us on that journey.
Experience Mindfulness: Guided Exercise
00:32:34
Speaker
And for anyone who's listening right now who happens to be driving, this is not something that you'd want to do while driving a car.
00:32:42
Speaker
or any kind of motor vehicle for that matter, or doing anything that might be deemed dangerous. And so if you're going to participate in this next five minutes, I invite you to get to a place where you can be safe and present. And Rachel, please lead us.
00:33:00
Speaker
Great, thanks Jill. So just by way of setting the practice up, I just want to point out that in this practice what I'll be guiding you to do is feeling the sensations in your body. And when I first started I thought to myself, what on earth has that got to do with anything?
00:33:18
Speaker
The reality is that the sensations in our body are a really great tool to learn to anchor our attention in the present because sensations in the body are always occurring and only occurring in this very moment. So don't let the subtlety of this practice kind of be lost on you. It's really an evidence-based practice that uses the sensations in the body as a way to anchor your attention in the here and now.
00:33:41
Speaker
And as you'll see, every time we notice that our attention wanders, I'm going to invite you to have your attention come back. And in this way, we start to notice the wandering mind and choose to do something about it and respond by bringing it back. So to make a start, just invite you to find a comfortable sitting position. Ideally, if you can, both feet flat on the floor, a nice straight back, and then just allow your eyes to be gently closed or downcast.
00:34:12
Speaker
We'll make a start using some chimes to begin. So to begin our practice, I just invite you to join me in taking a nice deep breath in, filling your lungs right up.
00:34:37
Speaker
And then exhaling gently and slowly, releasing all the air from your lungs. And then as you allow your breath to return to its natural and gentle rhythm, breathing in and out through your nose with your mouth gently shut, if that's possible for you today. I just invite you to bring your attention
00:35:06
Speaker
Firmly into this moment by paying attention to the physical sensations that are currently going on in the area of your feet. So wherever your attention might be, I invite you to get it and direct it. Focus it on your feet and feel and notice the physical sensations that are going on in the area of your feet right now. Tingling,
00:35:38
Speaker
coldness, heaviness, whatever it might be. If you can't feel any physical sensations in your feet, that's okay. What you might like to do is just push your feet into the floor. And as you do that, notice what that feels like. Notice where you might feel pressure or warmth. And then allow your feet to come to the resting position.
00:36:04
Speaker
Just noticing the sensations that are there in your feet right now. Now I invite you to shift your attention from your feet to your hands. An important part of the practice and benefit of mindfulness is we learn to shift our attention where we want it upon command and keep it there. We're practicing that right now. So I invite you to shift your attention from your feet to your hands.
00:36:32
Speaker
And as your attention lands, if you like, on your hands, I invite you to begin the process of feeling and noticing all the different kinds of physical sensations that are going on in the area of your hands right here, right now. What can you notice? There's no right or wrong. It's just simply a practice.
00:37:02
Speaker
of using your awareness to notice what's going on right here right now. Coldness, tingliness, sweatiness, dryness, heaviness, whatever the sensations are in your hands right now. Just notice them just as they are.
00:37:29
Speaker
Now I invite you to shift your attention from your hands and take your attention to your belly. In fact I invite you to place one hand on your belly so that with the benefit of your hand on your belly you can feel and notice the physical sensations that accompany your breathing so that on the very next in-breath you feel the way the belly rises
00:38:00
Speaker
And on the next out breath, you notice how the belly falls. Keeping your attention on your belly exclusively. Feel and notice the physical sensations. All the different kinds of physical sensations going on in the area of your belly as you breathe.
00:38:32
Speaker
rising falling the touch of your clothes all the sensations that are there and just keep your attention focused on feeling those sensations
00:38:59
Speaker
If you notice that your mind wanders away from being focused on those sensations in your belly at any time, the moment you notice that with a kind but firm attitude, just bring your attention back. Choose to bring your wandering mind back and focus on feeling the sensations in the area of your belly again.
00:39:26
Speaker
We'll practice in silence for the next 20 seconds or so. You know what to do, you're feeling the sensations in your belly. And every time you notice your mind might wander away, the moment you notice, you just choose to bring your attention back and focus on the sensations in your belly. We'll start that 20 seconds practice now.
00:40:14
Speaker
Feeling the sensations in the area of your belly as you breathe in. Keeping your attention there as you breathe out. Now allowing your hand to return to its original resting position. And joining me in taking a nice deep breath in to conclude our practice. And taking a nice long exhalation out.
00:40:47
Speaker
and then allowing your eyes to open gently and bring your attention back into the room. Thank you, Rachel. My pleasure.
00:41:04
Speaker
So Rachel, for people who just experienced this and maybe they're feeling a little refreshed and this feels good, but at the same time wondering, how do I do this with my workforce? When would I do it? And how would we do this?
Embedding Mindfulness in Culture
00:41:22
Speaker
Do you have any examples from some of the companies that you've worked with of how they've actually incorporated it into their work environments and allowing the time for it once they know how?
00:41:35
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. It's a good question. Yeah, so, you know, I guess the thing off the back of a practice like that, I would encourage your listeners to do is just to notice how they feel right now. And contemplating the state of the mind that they're in right now.
00:41:53
Speaker
Ask themselves, ask yourself, would this state of mind make a difference to how I work? Most people report feeling calmer and clearer, more together, more settled, more focused. And the reality is that for most people, the answer is self-evident, that if they could maintain or access that state of mind on demand, or be in that place more regularly, it'd be self-evident that would make for a better work environment and better work practices.
00:42:22
Speaker
So I guess that's one part of the answer, Jill. You know, it's about having the practical experience of it so you can notice that it has an impact. And then using that as a motivating force to go, well, if we do this more regularly, we'll get more of this clarity, focus, centeredness and so on. So a lot of the work that I do, you know, off the back of the one hour presentation,
00:42:48
Speaker
is about taking people to train them in an eight week mindfulness training program because this is a lot like fitness. You know, talking about going to the gym doesn't get you fit and talking about mindfulness doesn't benefit your mind, fitness. You know, if we want to create a successful mindfulness-based safety culture, as you're pointing out,
00:43:07
Speaker
you've got to do the practice and so just like with getting physically fit there's some basic skills that you want to learn, you want to know how to use the equipment, you want to know how to avoid injury, you want to know how to train different types of mindfulness muscles for different activities.
00:43:24
Speaker
And so it's about getting educated and about knowing how to do different practices. So in practice, what that looks like is getting people together as a team. Normally I train groups of about 24 in a team. In an eight-week mindfulness program, we spend an hour once a week, every week for eight weeks. And we talk about the conceptual, the science, the stories, the practical application of mindfulness. But then we also, most importantly, we do a practice.
00:43:52
Speaker
and I connect people with the mindfulness practices I publish on the Insight Timer mindfulness app so that they can do a daily practice. Of course, not everyone does a daily practice, but those who do are the ones who get the most benefit. That's just the truth, like fitness, you know, if you go to the gym, you get fit. And with that, it starts to create a couple of things. One is people start to handle themselves better,
00:44:18
Speaker
And once they start to handle themselves better, that has influence on those around them. And when people go together as a group and they start to have the language to have a dialogue about these things. So there's a whole education piece around mindfulness and non-reactivity and emotional intelligence and awareness that a group of people in the same organization develop. And then they are able to start to talk with each other and encourage each other and model to one another these kind of behaviors.
00:44:47
Speaker
You know, one team I worked with, they were, last year they were highly stressed out, their work's really demanding, they go and do work in the field. And they had just taken that stress out on each other, you know, it was a really toxic work environment. And the first part of mindfulness, to be honest, was really about imparting the skills for them to know how to regulate their emotions and de-stress so that they could stop being so reactive.
00:45:14
Speaker
toxic with one another you know first things first and then but then once you get from that kind of that where people are sinking to getting them to swim then what you actually get them to do is go from the swimming to actually like the surfing the stresses of life you know one of my favorite quotes around mindfulness is that you can't stop the waves but you can learn to surf
00:45:31
Speaker
And sure, a lot of people come into training and they're just trying to not sink. But once people get the emotional regulation piece, which comes from practice and understanding how this all works, then they start to be able to perform a lot better. And so, you know, I was talking to a guy yesterday. He was, he's kind of like the alpha male in an organization. He came to a mindfulness one day training I did in January. He was skeptical. He sat up the back with his arms crossed all day. He's the leader of the group too.
00:46:00
Speaker
40 of them, he's up the back, I thought, oh, goodness. Oh, great. Yeah, yeah, oh, good, good. And, you know, and that's fine. And then at the end, I actually haven't caught up with him to find out what it was that got him over the line. But in the end, he said, you know what, you've actually made some really good points today. And he said to me, it was his words, he said, I'm going to give this a red hot go. And when he, and of course, when he said he's going to give it a go,
00:46:22
Speaker
Half the group falls in behind him because he's the alpha male, he's the boss. So a lot of it's about having the leadership in an organization because it's easy for people to go, well, I think they all need it. But the people, the leaders who are willing to go, I'm going to do it.
00:46:37
Speaker
That's when it really has the capacity to change, you know, culture. And I talked to him yesterday. I'm going up to work with his people next week. And he's like, I've been practicing 15 minutes every day. It's changed my life. And it's his words. He's like, he's like, I'm just telling everyone they've just got to bloody well do it now. You know, classic.
00:46:55
Speaker
And I'm like, okay, I don't know how that's going to go, I'll have to workshop that. But you know, good on him because he's taken it, he's run with it and he's gone, I'm going to give this a go. And if it's rubbish, then I'm going to call it out, but I'm going to try it. And he's now an advocate for it and I can't wait to work with his team because he'll be modelling it. And so, you know, I mean, in some ways it's not rocket science. If we want to create a safe culture in our organisations, we've got to start with the internal skillset that we're all wandering around with.
00:47:23
Speaker
And if safety doesn't come from our internal capacity to pay attention and manage our mind and our awareness skillfully, then I don't know where it comes from. Surely that's the foundation of it. And if we get organizations where they practice it together, then that starts to change.
00:47:38
Speaker
the shape of people's brains probably and definitely the shape of the culture. I've had organizations where they now start their meetings off with five minutes of mindfulness. So that's one way people do it. And they find that they're much more productive in the meeting. They're much more focused, you know, because a lot of people wander into meetings and they're...
00:47:57
Speaker
you know, their mind's still on the job that they've just left. They're kind of reactive and it's, you know, a bit chaotic, whereas starting with five minutes of mindfulness kind of gets everyone in the zone and gets people thinking clearly. That's why some people do it. Other people have created mindfulness meditation spaces in their depot shed or in their workplace. But it requires a few champions, you know, in the organisation. That's the truth. And if those champions can be the leaders,
00:48:26
Speaker
Then it really gets a run on and that's where you really start to see things start to change but so it's an education piece and learning the skills and then you know with the Practices that I put up on the app and there's plans to potentially do a digital course So it's kind of available on demand then these are the kinds of ways we can start to scale it We're not quite there yet, but it's in them
00:48:48
Speaker
It's in the pipeline. Yeah, it's in the works because the demand's there and the impact is emerging wherever you do this and you do it properly. It does have a positive impact and that is what people want. So yeah. Wonderful. So you had used a term a little bit ago, non-reactivity. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I picked up on that word and I think I know what you were getting at there, but for our listeners to define what you were talking about. Yeah, sure.
00:49:16
Speaker
A lot of the time we all have these habitual reactive patterns to things, you know, we'll see the person who annoys us at work and we'll react with a sense of anger or, you know, there'll be some internal reaction that will go on to life's stressful moments and there's plenty of them, right? And the thing is that sometimes those reactions serve us, but sometimes they don't. And particularly when they're really strong emotional reactions to stressful events,
00:49:47
Speaker
They can often lead us to behave in ways that we later regret or unsafe or unprofessional or unproductive. And it can happen from the overt reactions of, as someone said to me the other day, that they nearly punched someone and that would have been a career limiting move. And I said, yeah, well, that would have been a career limiting move. I'm glad you didn't do that.
00:50:09
Speaker
you know from that kind of extreme to people who just you know they ruminate and fester about what's going wrong at work and it's waking them up at three o'clock in the morning and it's a really internalised experience but so there's lots of different ways that we react negatively or unproductively to stress and with mindfulness we start to be able to notice those patterns and essentially interrupt them
00:50:32
Speaker
and catch them early so that rather than reacting habitually and unconsciously in ways that we might later regret or which might actually undermine our concentration or health we start to be able to notice that pattern early and then we start to be able to choose instead of a reaction a more wise and skillful response and at a really practical level this starts with being aware of what's going on in our body and I know this
00:50:57
Speaker
This is really hard for people to conceptualize at the beginning, but you get to see it when you practice. One of the first signals that you're reacting is the changes in your body. So when I'm getting angry, I can feel it in my body. I feel like it's heat prickling up against my chest. And there's actually been research that's been done that shows that different emotions have different
00:51:19
Speaker
Physical sensation, correlates. Yeah, it's a really interesting paper. It's got color coding on it and everything. And I, you know, I introduced this to people during my eight week course and people look at me like, oh, I'm not quite sure. But I had an email from someone the other day said, you know, you're not wrong. I got into an Aji Baji with my boss.
00:51:35
Speaker
Typically, I would have reacted really badly. It would have gone, you know, pear-shaped. But in the moment, I remember the practice. I used my breath to focus my attention and calm my nerves. And I noticed all of the sensations in my body that were telling me that I was really angry. I felt heat in my chest and in my
00:51:55
Speaker
throat and I used that as a warning sign to be very alert to what I did next. And because I was sensitive to that, I didn't get blindsided by my habitual reaction where I got it in another argument with my boss. I actually was able to notice that that was what was coming, see it ahead of time and actually use the practice, feeling the sensations with the breath to calm my mind and create a bit of a gap to be able to choose a different response.
00:52:25
Speaker
I don't know if that answers your question. Yes, it absolutely does. It makes complete sense why this practice is an eight-week study when you're working with people. This isn't a once and done kind of thing to build those responses that you can lean into when you need them. You're not going to listen to this podcast and be able to have it nailed.
00:52:46
Speaker
I mean, it's exactly right. I think the closest metaphor, the most helpful metaphor is one of exercise. If we were all to go for a walk right now for 10 minutes, we'd probably all feel better at the end of the 10 minutes for the walk.
00:53:03
Speaker
You know, but that's not to say we're fit. So when I take people through a 10 minute mindfulness practice, most of the times they feel some benefit. They've had a change in their state of mind. But if you want to have a change in the trait of your mind in terms of how you habitually respond to life, how you turn up, how you are most of the time, you've got to train to be fit. You know, if you want to get physically fit, you've got to do the training and then you have all the day to day benefits of being physically fit, more energy, more flexibility.
00:53:32
Speaker
you know, greater, you know, ability to deal with stress. And so same goes with mindfulness. And I think if people keep that in mind, you know, this is not, it's not a magic pill at all. It's work and it's training, but the benefits are there. And just like mindfulness, I'm sorry, just like physical fitness, though, you don't have to, it's not like you only get benefits from physical fitness training after you've done it for a year. You know, you get a little bit of benefit.
00:53:59
Speaker
Every time. Every time.
Safety Impact: Reducing Errors and Enhancing Mental Health
00:54:01
Speaker
And they call it a dosage effect. You know, you can't trick the system here. And I like that that honesty about mindfulness training is that you get as much benefit as training that you put in. You put in 10 minutes of practice, you get 10 minutes of benefit. And that's not no benefit. But it's not the same as someone who's done it for 20 years.
00:54:17
Speaker
So you get what you put in, and in that way it's a really kind of honest and also really predictable kind of experience that you'll get a good result if you put the training in. Absolutely. Linda, I'm interested to hear from you on some practical applications. As you've been studying this and listening today, what would you share with our guests, our podcast listeners about applications in health and safety practices?
00:54:46
Speaker
So I learned something new from Rachel every single time I hear her talk about this subject. And so as I was listening to tie it back to safety outcomes, the things that we've touched on today, fleet safety, Rachel just talked almost directly to workplace violence and how mindfulness collectively or individually in a workforce
00:55:12
Speaker
might help to reduce incidences of workplace violence and or to de-escalate situations. These are all hot topics in safety right now. It's not just about reducing
00:55:28
Speaker
errors or preventing accidents. But you know, some of these really difficult things that we are looking at right now in safety, you know, like I said, fleet safety, workplace violence, reduction of air, I mean, they all have application with these methods that Rachel talks about.
00:55:53
Speaker
I was thinking about from a mental health standpoint as well, maybe someone who suffers from mild anxiety and at work and how this could be an intervention for them as well.
00:56:09
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, I'm careful to point out that, you know, I'm not a registered psychologist and I don't go into organizations to do this as a therapeutic intervention. You know, it's many therapists do use mindfulness with their clients these days, of course. And there's lots of research on the benefits for mindfulness, for anxiety and depression under certain conditions and so on.
00:56:33
Speaker
When I'm in a workplace, I guess I'm working with the population, which will have some degree of anxiety and some degree of depression and aggression. It's all there in every workplace, isn't it? It's everywhere. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I guess for people, if they're really struggling with significant issues, then I direct them to connect with a therapist. But pretty much in any situation,
00:57:01
Speaker
you know feeling aggressive feelings even if it's not that it turns into violence or feeling really stressed and anxious even if it's not full-blown anxiety that's present for all of us I think to some degree at some point in time and so this is for this is really about equipping people with the skills to know how to handle the stresses of life you know I've heard some people say and I agree with them that probably in
The Future of Mindfulness: A New Norm?
00:57:24
Speaker
I think it's Dan Harris who has some really great YouTube clips on mindfulness and wrote a book called 10% Happier. I've heard him say that if, and I don't know if it's true, but this is what I think he says is that in the 50s, if you had said to someone, I'm going for a run, they would have said, what are you running from?
00:57:40
Speaker
But now it's taken as a given that if you might not choose to be physically fit, but if you wanna take care of your health, you really need to do some exercise, right? And I think in the next five to 10 years, it's gonna be the same with mindfulness. People will be like, have you done your practice? Have you done your sit?
00:57:56
Speaker
And, of course, it's going to be people who go, no, I can't be bothered. I don't want to do it. But I think the amount of momentum with the evidence and people's direct experience will be that we'll know that if we want to keep ourselves mentally fit so that we don't fall into the trap of having
00:58:13
Speaker
some of the challenges that come when we're not mentally fit, I think people are gonna know and it's gonna be part of a lot of certainly probably Australian and American cultures where it's almost a given that you need to have good mental health practices and mindfulness is one of the best training tools that I've ever come across for keeping yourself in a good space. Yeah.
00:58:35
Speaker
Yeah, that's fabulous. Thank you. And as we start to wind down our time together today, Linda, I wanted to ask you, I think you had mentioned earlier, kind of like what's next for for both you and Rachel together, things that you're working on. Do you have some things to share with us?
00:58:56
Speaker
As Rachel mentioned, we'd like to write a paper together. I'm hoping she's still game for that. And we've also discussed doing some presentations together. Hasn't worked out this year just because of
00:59:12
Speaker
Rachel has a very busy schedule. But I would hope in the future that we can kind of mesh our two different realms of thinking together and bring this to more companies.
00:59:29
Speaker
Yeah, Rachel.
Expanding the Research: Future Plans
00:59:31
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I mean, I would love to write a paper with you, Linda, for sure. I'm still on for that, mate. No worries. And, you know, but I think the thing is that I see this as being demand led, you know, like if there's demand for people who are willing to give this a go, then I'm interested to hear about that. And I would love to work with Linda and I'm happy to travel to the States to do so. So, you know, the thing is that
00:59:59
Speaker
It's at that point where we need a few organizations who are willing to lead the way to work with Linda and I to start to really create a database of evidence for how this works. I've got programs that are ready to go and potentially if we can look to create papers, do work in organizations, and then once that's being piloted or explored,
01:00:22
Speaker
you know potentially do a digital program so it can be rolled out to you know at scale. They're the things I see in the future and if no one's interested in it then that's okay too I'll go and do other things but you know I think the truth is and Linda and I've talked about this a lot and we've talked about with you too Jill you know I think the truth is that these skills are
01:00:45
Speaker
evidence-based, they're accessible, they're practical, and they have so many knock-on benefits for safety and performance in the workplace that I can't see it going any other way than this being something that is a major feature of leading organisations in the not-too-distant future. Right, and it's not only is accessible, it's free.
01:01:07
Speaker
after you know how to do what needs to be done, it's accessible to you at any time without a cost. Yes, that's exactly right. And that's one of the best things about it. I make this point in my mindfulness training and I train people specifically to focus on using the sensations in their body and particularly their breath as a way to get the benefits of mindfulness.
01:01:30
Speaker
Because it's highly practical, it's free. You're not relying on an app or a sound or some candle or anything else. There are techniques in mindfulness practice that do use something external to the individual to get them to focus their mind and train their attention, and they're really useful. But I don't think they're as practical in the workplace because if you're out driving your train across the desert,
01:01:56
Speaker
or you're out on the road or you're at work, you can't be going, oh, I'm just going to get out this external tool to help me get myself in a good state of mind. It's got to be something you can do in the moment in day-to-day life. And I'm really passionate about making mindfulness practical to people. And after training hundreds of people now and speaking in front of thousands, it would appear that it really does work. And once you've made that investment and you learn the skills and you've got some champions in the organization, then you're away. Yeah.
01:02:23
Speaker
Right. Well, and for our listeners, speaking of demand, Rachel, and if people are listening and thinking, I want to know more, I want to hear more, I want to read about this myself, some places that you can go. Number one, if you want to read Linda's paper, The Art and Science of Mindfulness, you can go to our website at vividlearningsystems.com and in the search bar, just type mindfulness and the paper will come up right away.
01:02:52
Speaker
Um, you can also connect with, um, with Rachel, um, at her website, rachelgrace.com.au and also on LinkedIn, where Rachel often shares some of the information that you, that you referred to on the insight timer, where you have some guided meditation practices. If people want to come back to it, is that correct?
01:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, sure, yeah. My website's rachelgrace.com.au, so it's R-A-C-H-E-L-G-R-A-C-E.com.au. You can follow or connect with me there, but LinkedIn's probably the best place to stay across the things that I'm doing. I publish there.
01:03:29
Speaker
when I put up new meditations on Insight Time and so on. So you can look for me under Rachel Grace, and on the Rachel Grace, it's in Australia, and I think there'll be links on this page as well. So yeah, and email me if you're interested to find out more, that's fine too. So hello at rachelgrace.com.au, use my email.
01:03:50
Speaker
Wonderful, wonderful. Well, Linda and Rachel, thank you so much for being with all of our guests today. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Jill. Thank you, Jill. Thanks, Linda. And thank you all so much for joining in and listening today, and thank you for the work you all do to make sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day.
01:04:09
Speaker
Special thanks to Will Moss, our podcast producer. You can listen to all of our episodes at vividlearningsystems.com or subscribe in the podcast player of your choosing. If you have a suggestion for a guest, including if it's you, please contact me at social at vividlearningsystems.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.