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S2 Ep50: VGBD - Characters
79 Plays7 years ago
Join Dave and Jake as they start a new series…a journey into the depths of the very foundations of gaming itself . To begin, we'll get acquainted with the people we'll meet along the way!
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Transcript
Who is the real host?
00:00:45
Speaker
How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake. I'm joined by my co-host as always, Dave. How's it going on, Dave? Am I your co-host or are you my co-host? I mean, if that's changed now, I'll be surprised because we've been recording at your apartment for a while. I'll say maybe you're my co-host. It could be. I don't know if co-host is like... I think that is the case, right? Those are equivalent positions.
00:01:12
Speaker
It definitely is. I'm just yanking your chain. Yeah, sub host is a completely different thing. It's the Dom host sub host. You're just the guy who lives here.
Trying new formats: Video game breakdowns
00:01:25
Speaker
Alright, what game do you want to talk about tonight, Dave?
00:01:29
Speaker
And not really feeling specific game Jake sounds good. We can talk about character and How important it is to have character in this society? I was gonna make the joke of a video game without characters Hmm be boring as fuck. That would be pretty rough. I was gonna have something rhyming and poignant but uh didn't think of it in two seconds, so I
00:01:54
Speaker
Yeah. So we figured we were always open to try new things in our lives. Well, you say that. You've also turned me down a lot.
Significance of character in games
00:02:05
Speaker
Certain new things. So we figured we'd give this a shot, kind of open up possibly one plus episode series. Oh, definitely.
00:02:16
Speaker
Yeah, we'll see how it comes out. I do like the idea of hard committing to multiple entries at this point, especially if we later never follow up. It's just done. But called video game breakdown, unless we change that.
00:02:32
Speaker
Oh, I never looked up a better name for that, that's not bad. Alright, we're going to keep calling it video game breakdown. This episode is about characters in video games, in particular characterization, character development.
00:02:47
Speaker
how important it is yeah so we'll probably go over uh some good examples of games that exemplify this well yeah we won't let's not go crazy some examples and then if it comes to we'll probably have hopefully have some examples of where it was not done as well yeah yeah i think to give you the full spectrum
Games prioritizing mechanics over storytelling
00:03:10
Speaker
Because you don't have any thoughts of opinions of your own right and you take from us like a sponge just to hear you're the recipients of our wisdom Wisdom choice words Jacob. Yeah, but
00:03:23
Speaker
Kind of just kick us off here, like how would you, how would you categorize or how would you say how important is characterization in games for you when you're thinking about going through a game? How, how much does it impact your play experience?
00:03:42
Speaker
It I hate, I hate fucking saying this phrase. It depends. Yeah. I mean, you have to, that's literally the only, I got it right. So like most recently I was playing a little bit of forager and it doesn't really fucking matter. Like they have some NPCs and stuff, but that's not really a part of the core gameplay and it's very ancillary. Right. And it's not like your main character needs to have development or interactions with other players or something.
00:04:12
Speaker
And it's not a story driven game. Right. So in that instance, I don't give two shits, but if it's something where you want the player to be immersed, you need to have some degree of world building, usually through either the main character or you make me have like a silent protagonist and it's all based around the interactions with the world and other people in the game.
00:04:38
Speaker
Would you
Evolution of storytelling in games
00:04:40
Speaker
classify Forge with older, more traditional style games where it's kind of arcadey or based solely around the mechanics of the game as opposed to what the game is trying to tell you story-wise?
00:04:56
Speaker
Um, probably yeah, but also like to justify some older games. I like at the time it's just a new medium and they're like, what would be interesting and fun for people? So you have like bright and shiny shit. You have things that eat quarters and then later people are like, Oh, we can do more with this technology in this medium. Yeah. And that's where people like, Oh, we can use it to tell an interactive story.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, because I know it's been more of a recent explosion of games that are very focused on story, almost to the point, and in many people's opinion, past the point of where it's no longer necessarily a game.
00:05:38
Speaker
like minimum level of interactivity, maximum level of this is basically a movie at this point. Oh, the walking simulator category? Exactly, yeah. Or sometimes even beyond that. There's a, I don't recall the name of it, it's on Steam. It's literally a movie that is a choose your own adventure. There's just diverging paths
00:06:04
Speaker
And there are recorded scenes for each outcome, but it's a choose your own adventure movie I Wouldn't brief change it I wouldn't consider that a game Because it's like the goosebumps or any other type of book from that time choose your own adventure where you just get to a page It's just that you'd be left clicking instead. Yeah,
Silent protagonists vs. defined characters
00:06:20
Speaker
so but it's like I
00:06:23
Speaker
That's kind of like to bring this into characterization and like characters storytelling. That's literally all it is, right? It's stripped out all of the game mechanics or the game hood, you know, in that case. And it exists purely as a medium to tell you a story.
00:06:43
Speaker
Which is I would put that on the opposite side of the spectrum from like kind of arcade or traditional games where it's like I found a cool mechanic and A cool idea and let's build a game around it something like portal Which is probably an interesting kind of example because portal has both a complete lack of character from the protagonist in the first game Chell doesn't have a personality
00:07:09
Speaker
Well, in either game, really. Yes, yeah. You could make maybe an argument in the second game that based off of her actions you can kind of determine some things about her character, but it's probably a stretch. I'm going full squinty eyes on you here, Jake.
00:07:28
Speaker
Right. For our audio listeners, you can't see my eyes, which is everybody. I would say that Portal is more an example of solid fucking gameplay mechanics. Praise the game. Might even do another episode on it. Did we do an episode on it? We've done an episode on Portal. Not Portal 2. I almost lied there.
00:07:49
Speaker
But I think what makes the game more interesting is you have these interactions with GLaDOS. Like it's right. That's who's spurring you on either with positive reinforcement or more likely negative reinforcement. Right.
00:08:03
Speaker
But like the character is really cool and interesting because she's very sarcastic and like heavy handed with it. Yeah. And it wasn't really a big thing. So it's kind of like a very stand up personality and it was voiced well. And she was like, I get this character and I know what to expect.
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like, um, uh, shells is sort of just a walking, like recipient for input from the game. Yes. As far as actual character and personalization goes, like, um, people love Gladys. Like you, like you said, she's, uh, the, the snark comes through and just pushes you through the, the whole, the whole adventure, but, um, yeah.
00:08:51
Speaker
to interrupt your train of thought. That's fine. Do you have a preference between
00:08:57
Speaker
the example there being like a silent protagonist where
Player choice and character-driven games
00:09:00
Speaker
kind of the other characters in the world have a lot of personality or do you prefer when the main character has a lot of personality so this is this was one of the few points I actually thought about no but it's it depends it would be how I answer that it kind of depends on the game and what I'm going to try to get out of it okay so like
00:09:26
Speaker
Give me an example of each. So a game, I don't care. Um, or actually there's, there's two types probably of games. I don't care if the protagonist has a personality would be, um, a open RPG where you're given choice and some capacity. Um, and, and that not having a personality actually allows you to project whatever play through or character you want to run with your play style.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not going to like say like, Oh, you ran through and Skyrim and you killed everybody. So you're a bad person. No, maybe you're just playing a bad person that play through. Right. Um, and that's something that like a lot of, uh, open world, choosey RPGs where like choice matters, things like that. And a lot drive a lot of their fun.
00:10:15
Speaker
and recent kind of examples in that space where traditional IPs like Fallout have moved to voice characters and characters that have their own specific kind of, you can choose a response, but your character's emotional reaction to events as they happen is all fixed because you have voice responses.
00:10:38
Speaker
Yeah, it separates you from the character you're playing as John Williamson or whoever Wow great fucking character name I Get what you mean though like back in the elder days of games. Mm-hmm feel like Old legend of Zelda games a great example. Yeah, because link will make sound effects. I think that's elder scroll The elder the elder game, you know Zelda
00:11:08
Speaker
But like in that context you feel that like you are the hero of time and you're going through Because it does feel it does kind of like take away a little bit If you're like, yep, that's me It's like that's not how I would perceive the character of link to be that's not how I would play that character. I
00:11:28
Speaker
And it's like, even in the name link, right? Like he was named as like a placeholder for whatever name you choose, right? He's as much of a blank character kind of as you can get in that aspect. But to that same end or to the opposite end, cause I can't form sentences.
00:11:48
Speaker
That's not necessary. Some later games, something like Wind Waker, they do have a lot of emotes for the face. Yeah. Which adds its own personality. So since he's not talking to the players or other NPCs characters in the game, there's still a sense of like, this is what this character is thinking or going through. Right. You can be surprised. Yeah. Or like the, what was the classic one? Like the squinty eyes. I'm not sure exactly. I never actually played Wind Waker, but I played a little bit.
00:12:17
Speaker
Mm-hmm. I just know people really disliked it when it initially came out, but now everyone loves it and now people love it Yeah, I the for an entry earlier than that that had some Emotion from link all I know is that and the Nintendo 64 releases like Ocarina of Time of George mask He's really excited when he opens chests just really excited
00:12:41
Speaker
That's how I open Amazon packages on my front doorstep. I have like the box cutter. I'm like... Threw all my back. Your neighbors just see you holding whatever you purchase over here. Oh man. Yeah.
00:12:57
Speaker
But yeah, he's a great example of a kind of blank character or a character that until later wasn't developed when his own personality and the importance in Legend of Zelda, like, that was an early series, came from like, what's the gameplay like? Like, is the gameplay fun?
00:13:18
Speaker
Nobody cared if he was red or blue on the mass effect chart. Whether he had sarcastic responses or sincere responses.
00:13:34
Speaker
it was very much focused on the gameplay. So I think another example, and that would be unvoiced protagonist in action games. And one we have in here is Doom, which we've covered in the past, as you know.
00:13:52
Speaker
And I actually really like how, this is an example of a game where there is lore, there is story, none of it's thrown in your face. And yeah, it's all pre-existing though.
00:14:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's one of those things where it assumes you're going into the game is like you've probably experienced earlier titles or heard about it because It's a classic game that's been around for a very long time. Yeah, and it also doesn't need the story
Character interactions without voiced protagonists
00:14:20
Speaker
For you to go and experience and enjoy the game. Yeah, but I'll let you continue where I know where you're going Oh, yeah, and they actually they actually use the fact that doom guy doesn't say anything and
00:14:34
Speaker
to their advantage to inform the early game player because as you know reviewers as soon as they pick up a game now they don't know how to like walk through elevator doors or interact with anything button prompts are meaningless
00:14:50
Speaker
They actually, in the very start of the game, they use in a cut scene and a rare rip your control away from you cut scene. And that game, uh, they show you that he doesn't care about the plot. He doesn't care about other people's objectives. He's here to kill demons. And they do that without him saying anything. Just with like a moment's response to this, uh, uh, Sam, uh, Dr. Samuel Hayden talking to him on the monitor.
00:15:18
Speaker
I like how my voice went deeper for that response because I'm just trying to be personified. Dr. Samuel Hayden. Quit Hayden. But rip the monitor off those to the ground.
00:15:33
Speaker
And you're like, okay, he doesn't care. Right. That's it. Like, and there's very little beyond that point that is, um, more than you just walking around shooting things. Like he doesn't say anything. He stands around for some walking sections, but for the most part, that was all they wanted to tell you about the character from his own, you know, actions and words and things like that. They don't give you any of that.
00:16:01
Speaker
The only other times I think you interact with Doomguy or get a little bit more perspective, there is another scene where it's like, hey, I need you to dismantle this thing and just take it apart or shut it down. We'll fix it later. Yeah. And you can tell Doomguy's obviously confused by the electrical equipment. And so he just starts punching and he just breaks it with his fists. Yeah.
00:16:25
Speaker
And you're like, I guess that works. And also you can find the little mini doom guys throughout as like a little collectible, the figures, but like he kind of like fist bumps with her. It has like a cool little, like, Oh, that's neat. Yeah. For the classic one. Yeah. Yeah. When you get the classic, uh, mini it's, it's really cool. It doesn't take anything like out of the game as it's being provided for you as it's setting up. And, uh, it really just.
00:16:55
Speaker
drives home for people who may have never played Doom what the game's about. But that one's interesting because that's actually kind of like, I would classify Doom as somewhere in the middle for unvoiced, seemingly nameless, quote unquote, characterless protagonists because they almost do a little hybrid there where they still convey some information to you. It's not like you're actually a blank nobody and you can do whatever you want.
00:17:27
Speaker
But I think it just enhances and enhance the game like Doom for sure as our listeners know if they listen to us gosh about that game.
00:17:36
Speaker
Or if you just heard Jake's intro. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a little goes a long way. I prefer subtlety and minimalism compared to overt over the top. Like we always make this joke of like, Hey, here's my full backstory. You're like, ah, that's not.
00:17:56
Speaker
It's just it's too heavy-handed. Yeah, I like things that are Dark Souls being the obvious example I like that it's opt-in if you are explicitly looking for Dark Souls lore You can find it through interaction with characters items, but you have to go out of your way. It's not Bam, here's the thing. Here's what you got to do. Yeah, it kind of gives you a loose Loose open-ended
00:18:24
Speaker
There's even less characterization applied to the protagonist in Dark Souls than Doom, I would argue. The Chosen Undead or whoever you're playing as in Dark Souls for the given title has no implicit reaction to anything that happens to you.
00:18:42
Speaker
Um, there's no surprised face on your character and Dark Souls when something happens. You're like, Oh God, no, if you're playing without logic,
Structured character arcs and emotional engagement
00:18:51
Speaker
but it doesn't need it because the whole game is built around like the mechanics, obviously the story. Yeah. Um, and then the other characters each have their own full backstory and kind of who they are and what they bring to the world.
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah. I think I really liked that setup. I think that's probably one of my favorite setups where you don't have to, um, you don't have to take as baggage. Anything about the character you're playing as you're not, you know, that like the souls get like the souls guy, right? The chosen undead is, uh, he's not going to like jump in a cut scene and kill somebody that you cared about because.
00:19:31
Speaker
He doesn't do anything you don't tell him to do he has no personality quote-unquote so you get to learn about the other characters in the world you get to like help them out on their personal quests things like that and Learn more about them Tangent before we go into Full-on you are playing as a character. That's like scripted in a sense. Yeah
00:19:55
Speaker
Um, an example I just thought of is divinity original sin two. You can play as a custom character or you can play as a pre-made story character. Um, but whenever you have interactions with people, you can do certain things. Um, and based on your stats, you can maybe try and persuade somebody or intimidate them, but you can kind of guide that storyline. So.
00:20:22
Speaker
I'm not sure I'm going to this. Yeah. Well, it's something that provides more option for you. But as far as the pre-made story characters are concerned, they are all voice acted and have a range of responses based on things that happen. Right. And I feel like that level of attention to fucking detail. Yeah. Again, I want to talk about like they did a patch where they like rerecorded.
00:20:45
Speaker
I don't know how many hours of dialogue and added additional content. They didn't fucking have to. They didn't charge extra for it. But just the fact that Larian Studios went and did all of that. And again, you can play as a custom character and still get so much out of it just because of how much was put into the world and every single other piece of characters.
00:21:08
Speaker
And it's honestly, that's the hardest path, I think, and the games will go over. I think the most difficult path to take is one where you design characters with personality, and then you let players determine how their personality develops. And then you change the world, you change other characters, you change other interactions along the same time.
00:21:35
Speaker
Um, in response to what you're doing. Yeah. Uh, that's just from a game development standpoint, that's by far the hardest to accomplish. Um, it takes the most resources. So it depends what type of experience you want to sell. It's like, it's the RPG, right? Like, how do you, how do you get that in a non RPG?
00:22:00
Speaker
Oh no. You have to answer now. We need to lose one answer. So the other question I was going to ask is where do you think there can be stronger emotional ties for like investment in a game? So with that,
00:22:19
Speaker
Fuck with the word with this, uh, point here of divinity original sin two. Yeah. For how long I played and how much you get to learn about the characters, I was heavily invested. So I cared what happened and I wanted to complete character storylines, et cetera. But I know something we have on the list, which is very, you don't get to choose what happens. Yeah.
00:22:42
Speaker
Which one is that? I forgot the name. Last of Us. Last of Us, yeah. Which for me was probably like the highest emotional investment I've ever had in a game. Yeah. And I still think it's one of the best games of all time. Oh yeah. I don't think you're alone on that. Yeah. You don't get to choose what happens. You're playing through a story. Yeah. But the interactions between the characters and how distinct the characters are. Ooh.
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, this is very true to life. I would argue for the last of us, the fact that you have no, actually no control over how the characters develop, as far as their personalities are concerned, makes the story they're trying to tell that much more impactful. Because Naughty Dog knows exactly what arc their characters are going to take. They could set up events that will impact the characters in meaningful ways and cause their personality to develop.
00:23:36
Speaker
and they don't have to deal with bipolar player choices where your brother takes the controller and then you start choosing to kill all of the survivors or something like that, right? You don't have to reconcile that. You can tell a much more personal story that you've written, that you know exactly how it will play out.
00:24:00
Speaker
So, more than some of the games that are based, people derive most of their enjoyment from the gameplay, like Doom, and this you can derive actual satisfaction from learning how the characters are going to change and what's going to happen to them.
00:24:20
Speaker
I'm trying to think of a game that impacted me. Probably my biggest one before I knew lots of things existed and actually had to play it because it was only a PS3 and I wasn't going to buy a PS3. They're like, Hey remastered PS4 is like interesting. PS3 is just like in the middle here, right? Like people know PS2, people know PS4. What was PS3?
00:24:39
Speaker
Uh, again, a system that wasn't really backwards compatible. Um, for me, it was Bioshock infinite because it was still in the Bioshock universe. So I was obviously addicted, but also it was another one of those scripted stories where you have a character and you have another character and it's based on their interaction and relationship.
00:24:57
Speaker
Yeah. So you care for each character. You want to see them get through the game and do well. Um, but what Last of Us does so well is it challenges the characters constantly and has them interact with other characters who are also real. Yeah. Nobody is over the top.
00:25:16
Speaker
I'm the villain Tweedle's mustache and like throws rocks at puppies. Yeah. Um, everybody has a legitimate motivation for their actions or it's based on like, it's a zombie apocalypse. I could see somebody falling into that role of like, I think the first, one of the first guys you encounter, he's kind of like, hold up, doesn't trust anybody. He has a series of traps. He's like, it's me versus the world. Right.
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's really just a playground that is entirely derived from that concept, right? Like apocalypse happened. How would real humans react to this? Like not, not fallout, like exaggerated robots and mutants. Like how would people actually deal with this and what would the ramification be? I would even go another step further to say, I think one of the reasons it
00:26:09
Speaker
Does that so well is because it doesn't rely on humor at all. Oh, yeah, like if there is humor it's Very minor. Mm-hmm. It's done in like a Hey, we're kind of fucked right? Yeah in a way. It's a it's glancing humor. Oh
00:26:26
Speaker
yeah where it can't stick because people they have so much baggage shit's way too heavy in that game for you to be like oh here's here's the jokey character here's the the mood lightener yeah who has like a theme song and they walk into this yeah
Character development in multiplayer games
00:26:40
Speaker
the fawns shows up you know yeah yeah they don't have they don't have anything like that and then
00:26:47
Speaker
It makes the experience a lot closer to reading about what will happen. I would compare it to like a book, to a good book with character development. You would compare it to a bad book? Yeah, I would compare it to a good book in this case. And how I review games, it's good book, bad book. I would give that a good book at a time. But really, you're there, moved along by the experience. Like the gameplay in The Last of Us?
00:27:17
Speaker
It's good. Yeah, it's like solid. It's absolutely solid I honestly don't care really whether it would be slightly better or slightly worse My and like overall enjoyment of the game would not be majorly impacted which is sometimes rare for games That's because I wanted to know what happens in The Last of Us Like it's like a book
00:27:38
Speaker
Yeah, you're moving through it. And if there's a particularly dry couple paragraphs or a section of the game where you're like, am I really sneaking through another area killing these guys? I just did that. You don't remember it because that's not why you're playing the game. Yeah, it's kind of a means to an end at that point.
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah. It's, it's the, the sections between what the major payoff is, which is what's the next thing that happens here. And I think that, um, like I said, that's, that's one of the strongest emotional impacting storytelling approaches you can take. Um, especially as it impacts character development. Yeah. And it's also, this is again, branching away from characterization, but
00:28:27
Speaker
The pacing of that game. Yeah. And how it's done for everything. It's not rushed for the sake, like in a movie, you have a finite time to convey this story arc. We're going over the cannon of like original Superman, right?
00:28:46
Speaker
A lot happens, I'm sure, in the actual origins of Superman if you go back to comic book lore. But you can't touch upon all of that in movie time span. Unless you break it up and do a bunch of things. It's really dry. I feel like there's milk for money at this point. How many origins do you need, right? It's a lot, as it turns out. Modern movies have told us it's a lot.
00:29:10
Speaker
I don't know. And end my thought there. Yeah. Yeah. It's it is some day. Someday we're definitely going to have an episode. I think when the next 64, we already talked about it. But I think when the next Last of Us game comes out, we'll have to come back and talk about the current Last of Us game.
00:29:31
Speaker
The not quite last of us. Yeah. Most of us. But not all of us. It's like two people have left the party. You're like, most of us. But yeah, that's a really good example of the opposite.
00:29:48
Speaker
of the blank character, the voiceless protagonist. There's other people in that space, obviously, but they'll share a lot of the aspects we've already talked about. Gordon Freeman from Half-Life, he's the savior of PC gaming, obviously. Capitalized, you know, PC gaming. Modern PC gaming, I don't know anymore, maybe not.
00:30:10
Speaker
90s at least. And he exists basically entirely as a mirror for other characters to act upon. Like, he's just there to have people interact with him. Yes, like that's it.
00:30:26
Speaker
And I think that's perfectly valid as well. It's just, it's not going to invest me as much as a story where the writing has more personal interaction with who you're playing as.
00:30:41
Speaker
change of an employee who knows me knew that I would bring this up. Yeah. Undertale. Right. Okay. Undertale has a laid out story. It has defined characters in universe. Yeah. Your character is silent, but you can affect things based off of your actions. Right. Which changes the interactions with the characters. So if you are pacifist and you're going through versus going on a murdering rampage. Right.
00:31:07
Speaker
This goes into the RPG bucket of how the world reacts to what you do. But you're kind of a blank slate. I don't think your model ever changes. You have four directions. Actually, I said a blank kid. I saw a comic earlier where it's just like,
00:31:26
Speaker
Everyone has assumed that Frisk is a kid. Yeah, but it was really like 38 It's just like why do people keep treating me like this? I pay my taxes
00:31:42
Speaker
That's true. Well, they said like kids were falling in a hole. You're like, yeah, so that's a kid, right? Right. Maybe people just assumed. Maybe it's like a Westworld thing where it's like, hey, we can put some information here. Scene change. You're like, OK, so we're on the same page. You're like, no, we switched it up for you.
00:31:58
Speaker
No, you're the 38-year-old guy that follows the trail of kids into the wall. Where are those kids going? Maybe you're falling for dubious means. We don't know. You don't know. Reach out to us on Twitter. Toby Fox wrapped that up for us. Thank you for the show, Toby Fox. The reason I want to mention Undertale is that was another very emotionally impactful game for me as far as investment and needing to take a life break afterwards. Yeah.
00:32:28
Speaker
What was that, um, phrase you used? I used a lot of phrases. I know. It was the one, like, after you have something that's, like, very emotionally impactful, you just need to, like, take a step back. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I can think of that one. Like, I think you talked about it for, like, Requiem for a Dream. Oh, yeah.
00:32:46
Speaker
I don't recall a phrase, but I know you just sometimes have to take a couple days off and just re-synchronize with the world. You feel distinct from reality. And a particularly good piece of medium of literature or a movie or a game can put you in that state where it's just
00:33:08
Speaker
Or my mixtape. Yeah, or your Dave's mixtape. It's hot fire. Check it out guys a friend of the show Dave but it really just Takes you out of reality so much that you have to readjust to live in there sometimes binging anime does that to me is also I'm just like you get really attached to the characters and you get to the end and you realize none of it is real Yeah, and there's a melancholy
00:33:37
Speaker
sense of loss there's a Japanese word for I can't remember it but I feel like many other languages besides English have some very interesting words or phrases that define something that We don't have words for currently. Yeah, it's like it's it's an emotion and English that you could like describe in a phrase Yeah, it's just a word and a different language because people know how to deal with their emotions better but
00:34:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's like that. So what would you say is one of your higher up there for this is a well-defined character in a game, a well-defined character in a game?
00:34:18
Speaker
I mean, I'm going to take last of us off the table. Right. Cause I feel like anybody can argue, Joel and Ellie, they're holy shit. Yeah. They do a great job of that. And it's also because of the interaction between them. I know you literally just took it off the table, but like I'm picking it up off the floor and putting it back on the table. How much do you think just the latter sequences actually impact players, emotional, uh, emotional investment and their relationship?
00:34:46
Speaker
Context for anybody who never played the game. There are sections where You play as a character you might need to have Like you're playing as Joel. Yeah, you can't get to a thing So you'll like set up a ladder for Ellie who's smaller lighter more nimble to go and like help you out Yeah, and they do this in God of War as well between you and boy. I
00:35:08
Speaker
Yeah, boy, that is his name, I believe. And I do think it actually does add something. It's like a very minor thing. It's usually like during some dialogue. It doesn't feel like it's taking away. You're still playing the game throughout, but it develops this very small bond in a way. And again, in Bioshock Infinite,
00:35:29
Speaker
Booker catch. Yeah, she's like fucking whipping money at you know, she's like managing stocks Yeah, it's it's crazy, but it's a little thing that does make you Care. Yeah. Okay fucking companion cube from portal. Yeah, that was just yeah Talked about that one episode. Yeah Doom
00:35:57
Speaker
It's just that little bit of help. I was going to wonder where you're going with it. It was, it was a red herring as a, as a doomed I'm doomed in Dota two. Yeah. But it's that little bit of help that a box gives you where you feel personally attached to the box and the same way. Just helping somebody with like a ladder and then they help you and maybe they throw you a rope. Yeah. It's that little, little thing.
00:36:26
Speaker
Yeah, it changes the dynamic from like an escort quest in one of these games into a partnership, which I think is massively important for actually developing the characters here.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah. Cause obviously you, it, the game would give you incentive to keep a character alive. Obviously you need to get. Okay. From point A to point B. Yeah. If your character dies, obviously the respawn. Um, but like in an escort mission, if that person dies, you have to restart the mission. Yeah, exactly. Why do you suck so much? Get good CJ. Follow the train. Do you remember fable? Yes. Yeah. Do you know which mission I'm talking about? Uh, there's, there was a couple escort ones there.
00:37:09
Speaker
The one that stands out in my mind, you had to go like rescue somebody from a cave and then getting to the cave is easy breezy. Yeah. And the way back out, it's like all these goblins spawned. Yeah. You're going to be fine because you have swords and magic. Yeah. This person just kind of like following you slowly. Like, should I follow you? You're like, now's a really bad time. Yeah, it's, it's super obnoxious. Yeah. That's, that's not how you develop a relationship between characters.
00:37:36
Speaker
And also like those are NPCs that you see very briefly. Yeah. They're there for the sake of the mission. Right. We remember them as NPCs. We don't remember them exactly. They're not characters. Yeah. It's really interesting, actually.
00:37:50
Speaker
I remember there's an original question where I brought us back to The Last of Us. Jake, I don't have a plan. I don't know if you've picked up on that in the past year or so. Oh, that's fine. Let's talk about how difficult and approaches necessary to pull it off. It is to characterize characters in multiplayer games.
00:38:12
Speaker
Uh, somebody has been looking at the overwatch because I think that this is, this is an interesting problem that, um, some games have succeeded on significantly more than others. And I think usually the consensus seems to be that if you have a multiplayer game, go shallow with the characters. Um, but you look like you have a counter argument.
00:38:41
Speaker
You do have to to a degree. Yeah.
00:38:45
Speaker
I think you can build more depending on like how long it's been going. So like most recently I've been watching just Mortal Kombat videos because watching fighting games at any point, I'm like, man, that's cool. And I don't fully understand it, but yeah, cool. But each of those characters are very distinct and they need to be because why would you pick this guy versus this guy? So maybe like early Mortal Kombat sounds the best example. There's like three palette swapped ninjas. You got like reptiles of zero and scorpion.
00:39:16
Speaker
But like now, if you watch like the interest of the characters, they're all very distinct. They all have different play styles. And that's what you want. Yeah. So for like Overwatch, you need to have distinct things that lets like, why'd you pick this person over this person? Yeah.
00:39:31
Speaker
Part of it's going to be like, I prefer support versus DPS. Right. Or I like to be in somebody's face versus kind of like hanging back. But the further you go into it, to me, is still mind boggling because if you're like, Dave, make a game with characters, I'd be like, all right, there's this guy, this archetype, then there's this one. Range DPS, melee DPS. Like, how do you think of a third distinct character? Yeah.
00:39:59
Speaker
That like is not like, oh, that's obviously a cop off of this one. Right. It's, it's especially tough in like the MOBA space right now. Like, how do you, how do you make a new MOBA hero? That's not like really good. You're ripping off league and Dota at the same time. Way to go, Dota. You know, it's just, it's really dumb. Um, it's, it's kind of impossible not to get a bunch of, uh, similarities for anyone you release now. But when you said shallow Overwatch, could you elaborate on that a little bit?
00:40:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of there's an entire space, I guess, of multiplayer games that exist now where the character development is capped at a point because or at least it probably should be. And to qualify that.
00:40:47
Speaker
Border lanes came out. Border lanes won. Oh, is that out? Yeah, that came out a while ago. And one of the gripes a lot of people had with the game was all these characters are always dumping exposition on you, just like a rain of exposition. You're just standing there as the exposition falls about you and on your person.
00:41:09
Speaker
And it's constantly being interrupted by anyone else doing literally anything else. And it really just didn't matter or assist, like it didn't push the experience at all. Unless you're playing with like two people and you're moving slowly and you're waiting for dialogue to end, there's no way that you fully experienced what characters were trying to tell you in that game.
00:41:37
Speaker
And my other
Effectiveness of storytelling in narrative-focused games
00:41:40
Speaker
point I had for Borderlands is the protagonists, the playable characters in that, don't change at all. Their personality is 100% fixed. Maybe it's like, oh yeah, go get them blood, you know, for Bloodwing or whatever. But as far as inner group interactions, it just doesn't really happen.
00:42:03
Speaker
No one develops at all until the second game where you're just like, oh the writers were like After all of these events this person's changed a bit. They're like jaded so they're gonna see things differently Yeah, but that's only possible once they moved them into an NPC perspective Once they're no longer playable So We'll talk about two things. Mm-hmm
00:42:33
Speaker
The way my mind is working currently, I see it in like two different spaces. Yeah. In the one space, you have a game like Super Smash Brothers Ultimate, which we're going to play post recording. Yeah. And that allows you as a gamer or a player to essentially wear multiple masks. Are you feeling playing like a cool young Ness and like using magic on people?
00:42:56
Speaker
Are you feeling like a big badass again and you just want to wait for somebody to dodge roll into you, right? Yeah, it allows you to Change your place down the same way overwatch is Where you're not fixed to like a certain thing and they're not like heavily invested in
00:43:14
Speaker
games for that sense, because they are also multiplayer. Right. You're not going to have dialogue in the middle of smash where your characters stop and they have like an anime off. Yeah. And the next episode, stock three. Ooh, that'd be a good. I'm sure that actually is the name. Something already exists. Just like rocket jump. Um,
00:43:37
Speaker
Mission of my enemy of the show. Don't say that. I have deep ties. Not ties, just interests. Guys, deep guys. Deep, guys, deep.
00:43:51
Speaker
We should see if there's like an episode where I don't make a dumb sexual joke. I literally mentally tally off the first time you use an R-rated swear or something sexual. I'm like, and that is where we're going to have to mark this one as explicit. We have yet to make it through an episode where I haven't marked it as explicit.
00:44:10
Speaker
I just assumed the podcast was explicit, so I've never filtered. I manually have to check it every time. I'm sorry, but not actually, that's all right. Fuck you. But the other side of that space, my example being something like Love for Dead or Payday 2, where you have this team thing, the characters are predefined, but they are also distinct.
00:44:31
Speaker
But they also overlap in a way because they have a common struggle of fighting either zombies or cops depending on the game. Right. Or zombie cops in some cases. Oh god.
00:44:46
Speaker
They both have like a little bit of overlap in particular. We're like say like Left 4 Dead and Overwatch. There'll be some lines based off of events that happen in the game. Overwatch, Dota, a game like that, you'll have a rivalry line. Like, Timbersaw kills Tree and Protector, Tracer kills Reaper, and... Oh my gosh, what was her rarer line? I can't remember. She has a rarer line where she imitates his voice.
00:45:15
Speaker
Oh, that's gotta be good. It's freaking great But kind of these these rivalries That's the extent of it and something like Left 4 Dead The character's depth is kind of always there I would put out if this was a gradient I put Left 4 Dead at like medium depth because there's a lot that the characters have designed in their personalities That you discover by playing the game
00:45:40
Speaker
Yeah. And it's usually not from like one mission. It's throughout the story of missions. Yeah. Like just elevator sequences and that it's like, yeah, you're moving to the next area. Yeah. The special infected are setting up in versus, but like Zoe and Lewis are kind of having a heart to heart about how they really hope the other person gets through it.
00:45:59
Speaker
Yeah. And if you're playing through and anything other than versus mode, these kind of left for dead, I think more than a lot of these other games forces moments of. I was going to say tranquility. That's not really true, but introspection. Yeah. Silence and waiting where whatever they're trying to tell you, you have to listen to. Usually if characters are talking to each other and they're not yelling.
00:46:29
Speaker
like tank over there or whatever, then it's in a moment of quiet and you can kind of at least listen to the dialogue. There was a clip I saw earlier today of Admiral Bulldog, who's a Dota 2 player, and they were destroying the top barracks of Radiant, like wipe the enemy team, they're all laughing and stuff. And I was just watching this Twitch clip and I get to the end
00:46:59
Speaker
And someone's like, oh, man, our ancient. And then, like, camera swings all the way back to the opposite side of the screen. The guy had the triple rampage. Their silencer had gotten a triple rampage on the enemy team. Wow. So they, like, 100% smash in, smashing these guys. Camera goes back to the opposite side. Admiral Bulldog immediately loses. Everyone breaks out laughing. And I realized when I first watched it that I didn't hear any of the callouts of the announcer saying that their ancient was under attack.
00:47:29
Speaker
So I went back and I watched it and I was like, this is actually very audible. I have no idea how I missed it. And it's because I just tune out the announcer and they do the same thing. They played the game so much. The most important call out you can get. It's from a teammate.
00:47:46
Speaker
Yeah, like it gets complete. The games call outs get tuned out. That kind of transfers back to my original thought, which is the reason borderlands doesn't work as far as trying to get people attached to characters in the world. In my opinion is there is no moment of silence where it's like, ah, this is the meaningful interaction that everybody's going to hear. Um, so anyways, that's why I suck at Dota.
00:48:15
Speaker
I feel like you never actually answered my initial question of what game or what character in a game do you think is a good example? Was that the initial question? I think it was, and then you brought back up the box that I put on the ground. I didn't even talk about the last of us. Of the last of us, and then we tangented into something else. I'll be honest, I couldn't remember what your original question was.
00:48:36
Speaker
Well, that is my question again. All right. What's the example of a good character? Good characterization in a game. In multiplayer or single player? Just pick one. It doesn't need to be like the best, but one you think does it justice of good characterization. I'm also thinking in case you turn this back on me.
00:48:54
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I was actually, um, this is kind of maybe it's maybe cheating a little bit, but, um, amnesia. Uh, I really like the duality we've, which we've had an episode on in the past. Uh, are we just plugging our own show? Hey guys, check out our content. We have, we make no money off this. I don't know why I'm pushing this over. The, um, uh, the discovery of the personality of the protagonist.
00:49:24
Speaker
And the discovery of the intent of the antagonist in parallel, because you don't know what you wake up. You don't know who you are. You're scared. And you determine who you are through the course of the game.
00:49:40
Speaker
yeah all you have is like this note that you wrote to yourself it's like hey it's me what's up dude i need you to go and kill this guy and you're like i just launched the game what's going on am i the kind of person that kills people i don't like are you am i a bad guy i think we're the baddies
00:50:00
Speaker
But I like that. I like that. It's a little bit of a twist on it. I mean, Amnesia gets used a lot in RPGs to make it so you don't have to explain to the protagonist what the backstory of the world is. But this game gets passed through. I feel, though, that. That is a good example of them doing it well, because it's the whole core of the game is you like going deeper and deeper and discovering. And it's not it's not a blank slate either. No, it's not which I like.
00:50:31
Speaker
You are very much Daniel. Yeah. I'm trying to think of my example. Yeah. I was like, you'd probably didn't expect me to have an actually good one with amnesia. No, I expect that response to be shit. Um, cause I really want to make a secure Italian, but I can't. Yeah.
00:50:53
Speaker
What else have I been playing recently or more historically? I don't know. I don't know. I'll plug it again. Yeah. So in Bioshock Infinite. Yeah. I mean, that's another good example of it. Yeah. Because you play as Booker DeWitt. Yeah, Booker Ketch.
00:51:10
Speaker
booger. Like you again, sorry, I was like, you don't know what you're doing and where you're going. Yeah. And you can kind of tell a little bit about your character, but then as you go, you kind of transitioned from being this rugged outlaw type character to a very caring person. Cause initially you're going after Elizabeth. Yeah.
00:51:35
Speaker
for like, bring us the girl, wipe away the slate. The slate's gone. Was that supposed to happen? But like, as you go, you can tell that like their attachment to each other grows and like the dynamic changes throughout the game.
00:51:55
Speaker
Yeah. And it's based on events where it makes sense. Like there are times where we're like, we have to work together because we have to and other stuff. Yeah. But based on other things, it really grows. And then I'm not going to spoil the end of the game in case somebody hasn't played it. Yeah. But we haven't had an episode on that yet.
00:52:14
Speaker
There's obvious reasons why like it, it all ties together later on. And for me that it was really impactful in that way, because it was another unfolding story where they did develop the characters over time throughout the course of the game.
00:52:31
Speaker
And I think for me, that's probably my preferred style of if I want to get emotionally or just invested in the game. Based off the fact that one of your examples is infinite and the other example is Undertale. I think you have the background to support that. And then the last of those being another one of my favorites is...
00:52:51
Speaker
Which is the only emotionally devoid game on the full list. Yeah, but I think all of my games that I really truly like always have a soft spot in my heart near Automata.
00:53:05
Speaker
Another great game. And it's a lot of interactions between characters you already care about. Yes. I don't find myself, and maybe you'll disagree with me on this, but I don't find myself often caring about faceless, voiceless protagonists from the perspective of character development, how they see the world. I can't think back on any example of a character that is me and my choices for that playthrough. I'm like, ah, that one I'm really attached to.
00:53:35
Speaker
An example, I think, would be... So, you know... Well, I'm blank on the game. What's it like? Travis Touchdown is the main character. Yeah, no more heroes. No more heroes. I feel that no more heroes would not be a fun game if you did not have the character of Travis Touchdown. Right. Because it's so crazy and over-the-top where you need that. Yeah. It's hard to put, like, a blank slate in that place. You're like, alright, go. It'll make sense.
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah. Like Suda51 just has completely absurd characters. Like we covered Killer is dead. If that protagonist was entirely a blank slate, it would have just been to the detriment of the game.
00:54:19
Speaker
What's kind of interesting is I didn't know we were working our way to this conclusion because like it bothered me that some of my recent RPG releases have been less blanks lady, which I'm entirely confident is not a word. Um, like I mentioned fallout four came out voice protagonist, fewer dialogue options, all of that. That's closer to the pre-programmed like predestined protagonist kind of.
00:54:49
Speaker
But I enjoyed it less than a lot of freedom in that type of game Yeah, going back to what you're saying. I feel that RPGs like Anything Bethesda makes it's it behooves it to have a silent Main character so you can choose your play style. Yeah
00:55:08
Speaker
Because you are the adventurer, you go and do whatever the fuck. It's not about you, it's about the world and the characters you interact with. That actually, that's probably a good point. I think that's a good point. Like there's not a story to tell in Skyrim where it's like, and you as the hero learned this lesson, it's like, nah, you're going around killing shit. Yeah. Exploring.
00:55:28
Speaker
It's funny that that's true even when you're not the, like even when you're not the, when you are the main focus of the universe past like the midpoint in the game. Everyone's like, is that the guy? And they're like, yeah, that's the guy. That's the dragonborn, he's over there.
00:55:44
Speaker
Yeah, me and fable. Is that the chicken? That's the guy who kicked chickens. I don't think that was one of the titles. There were some interesting titles in fable though. Any of the the starter titles that were like super cheap. Those were the ones you should stick with. This one's good. It's been a while, but yeah, but a lot of them are just insults, which is freaking great. Arse face. I remember that one.
00:56:12
Speaker
Remember that Vayner title? Yeah. But I think that I'm basically in agreement. If it's a well-written character and has like a well-written arc, I'll remember that a lot more. That has a more impactful, long-term impact on me than an open world game, which I might enjoy a lot.
00:56:39
Speaker
Yeah, there are times when I am really feeling that jam, but as far as character development, like I said, we're in agreement. It's better to have somebody who develops over time.
00:56:50
Speaker
And then also is human. Yeah. I, one of the things I hate the most for like tropes in movies is when you have two people and it's like, they need a romantic thing for the, for the moms watching to re spark their love life with their house. Fuck that shit. Do not put something in for the sake of it. I fucking hate it. And it's so fucking transparent and bad. Yeah. How do we get the X demographic as usually?
00:57:18
Speaker
Yeah, nothing nothing that starts with that question comes out good, I think. Yeah, because you're doing something out of necessity. Yeah, rather than like a love or a passion.
00:57:33
Speaker
So would you say that this, do you prefer a game that gives you more choice or less choice as it applies to character development? Because while you think about that, I could give an example real quick. Something like Mass Effect, where you're always the hero, but maybe you're the Renegade hero, maybe you're the Paragon hero. Or Crap, what is the, what was the PlayStation's version of Prototype?
00:58:03
Speaker
Uh, infamous. Yes. Infamous infamous. That was just a guess. What was the thing where you level up all the way and a payday too. And then you reset the level. But, um, and that one you're like, Oh yeah, be the, be the villain or be the good guy. Yeah. Um, do you prefer that or the more tailored experience as created by a person named Taylor?
00:58:32
Speaker
Um, shout outs to Taylor. I'd probably say usually a more tailored experience will Make for better characters and a better story because I feel like No, I haven't played Mass Effect, right? Um, but for the example you gave with infamous all seven played Have you played a game like that though where they gave you? Yeah, but like it feels very meaningless for there'd be like hey, so
00:58:57
Speaker
It's like Professor Opie being like, so are you a boy or a girl? I'm like, it doesn't fucking matter. What I pick here does not change. It changes one cutscene at the end. Also, why are you asking me? Can't you tell? Do you decide this? He's like, hey, it's 2019, not making any snap judgments.
00:59:18
Speaker
I'm just imagining that up until that point, I know this is character development where you're just telling him how things are. But what if you're not telling him how things are? You're telling him how things will be, right? Gender-neutral kids just walk up and the professor is just like, I want to be a boy or a girl. That's probably not where you're going with that. No, not as much.
00:59:45
Speaker
I find myself agreeing with that assessment kind of more and more too. Literally the examples I kind of gave as far as character development is concerned, and neither one does either.
01:00:03
Speaker
the story drastically diverges and then gameplay is unaffected or the story does not drastically diverge and gameplay is unaffected. In both cases it feels a little bit shallow and I feel like if they dedicated all of their writing effort to one character's
01:00:24
Speaker
uh, moral development or character development, um, without having a whole lot of different branching paths or options or consequences. I want to add though, there needs to be a certain degree of you interacting. So something like a walking simulator, you pick up a thing, you open a door, who fucking rock? It doesn't make you tied to the character. Yeah. So.
01:00:51
Speaker
Like, again, go back to Last of Us, when you, like, have to kill somebody who's human... We should just leave it on the table at this point. When you have to kill somebody who's human, it's usually impactful. It's not like somebody attacked me and had to do it. Yeah. Like, there are some times where it's like, oh shit. Right. And the fact that you're actually doing it versus just watching a cutscene makes a difference. Yeah.
01:01:15
Speaker
Spoilers. Yeah, you kill humans Maybe so when you play as Ellie in the winter. Oh, yeah You essentially have like a boss fight with this guy who's the head of like a cannibal organization. Yeah cult. Yeah problem group Yeah, that last one makes the most sense
01:01:34
Speaker
Um, but basically you find this out. Um, and so like you're running from him because he wants to kill you and you're in like this, essentially a diner and you're kind of like going through and trying to sneak, make sure you don't get fucking detected. Oh yeah. This is the sneak fight. It was super creepy.
01:01:52
Speaker
And also, the guy's name is David. Please stop doing that for your game makers. I can't do that. I felt tense. I felt anxious because I wanted to kick this guy's ass, but I also didn't want to be murdered. And the fact that I actually went through that engagement as a player versus just a spectator made me give a shit. And now I'm like, I'm so glad Ellie got through that. I'm so glad I got through that. Exactly.
01:02:20
Speaker
You actually fear for the main character. You feel like in a lot of RPGs where it doesn't matter, like you have a lot of choices, you can save and reload at any point. Like you might just save scummy motherfucker. Yeah. You might just save scum to see what happens, but I think is like, I do that because I think everybody does that if you have the option, because like, why would you not? You literally get to experience more content in a single play through and see what would have happened, which is a great question.
01:02:49
Speaker
But in a game like this, there's a chance Naughty Dog puts a lot of effort into their games. They might have a situation where you actually get her caught and then something bad happens and then they have you keep playing or something like that. That's entirely plausible.
01:03:10
Speaker
Um, and I was in the same situation. I was like, I was afraid for Ellie because I'm emotionally attached to her at this point. And like a good jet, like round of applause to developers. If you can get your players to that point. Um, there's actually, uh, kind of wrapping up that thought a little bit. Um, an example of a game that's like that, that I know, I don't think you played it yet, but, um, I did play earlier this year. Um, no, last year.
01:03:40
Speaker
What's the game? Detroit Become Human. I did not. By the same people who made Heavy Rain and Ego Prophecy. I can never remember their company name, but everybody else knows it. You can look it up. That game has that concern for the main characters and then 100% they will cash in on mistakes. You don't get like a restart. Yeah. Whatever happens happens and the story moves on.
01:04:11
Speaker
And that is super terrifying from an investment standpoint. Yeah. If you start to care about those characters and you're like, I'm sneaking around a house and if I get caught, it's it. Like this play through, that's it. Yeah. For this character. It's a, it gets you in the game. It gets you in the game. So.
01:04:34
Speaker
That's another good one. I recommend that one once we both play that one. We can go ahead and make an episode on that one, maybe. Maybe.
01:04:43
Speaker
Shave, we don't make episodes on games anymore. That's fair, right? But anything, any closing remarks on characters? On a scale of 0 to 10, how important, now that we've talked through it all? Sometimes. I'm not gonna... Just without an answer. That's fair. I wouldn't either, because I don't really have one.
01:05:05
Speaker
Again, just going back. I'll get really depends on the game. Oh if you're doing anything. That's more story driven Where the character development matters, and they're not just like I'm sitting in the backseat to like watch the story type thing Yeah, fucking put some effort into it, and then what it does It's really paid off in games that I've come to love and enjoy yeah, whatever you're doing pour your passion into it That's really cool mechanic, and you're just gonna build the game around it go for it. That's awesome That's how we got super meat boy or whatever else
01:05:35
Speaker
Oh, hell yeah. But if it's a story you want to tell, tell the story and make your characters meaningful, give them flaws. We'll be along for the ride.
01:05:49
Speaker
Yeah. Nobody likes perfection. Yeah. Which is why so many people hate me. Let's, let's end it on that joke. Yeah. Um, so, but I do want to hear other people's opinions because again, we're just two guys who play video games, but if there's a certain character in a video game that you think is really well personified and you care about them outside of the game, as far as like how they've developed maybe throughout the series or anything else, or you just have good examples.
01:06:18
Speaker
Use the fucking Facebook, people. Yeah. Facebook.com slash Soapstone Podcast. Let us know who your favorite characters are from your gaming experiences and why that's the case. As always, you can send in feedback directly to our Gmail if you wish. Soapstone Podcast at gmail.com. And as always, we will see you in the next one.
01:07:21
Speaker
you