Transcript
Speaker: Music Music Music
Speaker: How's it going everyone? Welcome to another episode of Soapstone. My name is Jake and I'm joined by my co-host as always Dave. How's it going tonight Dave? I'm torn because as I told you before i had a good thing happen today and then a not so good thing happened today.
Speaker: That's the duality. I want to say it's still net good. I'm say good. That is good. I'm gonna follow the rule of math That's fair. and wonder like, so we asked this question, you know, like, how are you doing today?
Speaker: Um, and it really does, it kind of delineates the day. Right. I think this is only possible because we get to sleep. Right. But if we didn't get to sleep, how are you doing today would just be the compound aggregate of everything that you experienced.
Speaker: And that's like, that would be difficult to calculate. I imagine that we kind of go more of like you would define your own time period. Like, how are you doing right now?
Speaker: And then you're like no well, I've had a shitty week. ah So not good. That is funny. I like the idea of defining the time regardless. I mean, but even if without people losing, like losing the ability to sleep or the need to sleep.
Speaker: where you're just like going through a drive-thru or something and the Taco Bell attendant is just like, how's your week going? That's their opening line. Like before even asking what your order is or anything.
Speaker: Because right now, that i mean, it's common in the US to be like, ah how's it going? Or something like that. Because we understand that the only actual answer is basically a one word response with no follow-up. It's not an actual question.
Speaker: yeah and I I don't like doing that because it's just a pleasantry for the sake of pleasantries. Like it's fine to do like, like I'll drive by a neighbor and be like, oh, I'll wave.
Speaker: You know, it's just like a little, like a little head nod. It's acknowledgement, right? We're not doing this like, hey, how's it going? And then you gotta be like, good. How are you? Good. all right. I'll see you later. Uh-huh.
Speaker: I don't want to do that every fucking time. We can just not talk. We can just not talk. Yeah, I do appreciate that with my neighbors. That is um i can just wave.
Speaker: Right. yeah it's It's ideal. This is the advantage to being far enough away from people that that you don't. It would almost be weird to try to communicate. Right. You'd kind of have to yell or something.
Speaker: um so instead of just a wave, ah you continue to move your feet in whichever direction you were already going. So as to ah convey confidence. I'm not staying here. Yeah, exactly. Well, you're saying like, I have no intent to stop and divert um the times.
Speaker: There have been times I violated that rule and I saw like a neighbor who was around their car or something like that. I had stopped, you know, I waved, they waved back. Then I realized that we're now both standing and it's unclear what our intentions are from this moment forward. Right.
Speaker: Because maybe i should walk over and say hello now because they're still looking at me. But that's not what i meant to do. You know?
Speaker: Yeah, you shouldn't have stopped if you just want to do like something in passing. Uh-huh. I think the reason that that happens sometimes is because i If I saw them, there's a chance that they saw me and they would have been waved me.
Speaker: And I'm like, okay, if they... hate that so much. If they waved at me, i don't want to just like miss that. I want to be friendly. like I'm not a misanthrope. um But yeah.
Speaker: Occasionally, you just have a brief conversation or something and ah get along with your neighbors. And that's life. yeah I was taking my trash to the to the street before trash pickup...
Speaker: um And for context, ah the neighbor across from me had like come over to like introduce themselves. Like we talked for like five or 10 minutes one day. Yeah. They're very nice. They got to meet the dog, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: And then I taking out the trash just recently, I saw that like them and their family were outside on their porch, but like they were kind of chatting amongst themselves. But again, I'm right across the street. It's not far. I'm within eyes view.
Speaker: So I'm going to trash trying not to make like direct eye contact. Like, Just staring at them. Yes. But I want to make sure there's enough of my attention so that if they are looking over, I want to give them, you know, a polite wave of acknowledgement and not be like, oh, I'm specifically going out of my way to ignore you.
Speaker: So it's a fun little balance. These, uh... Social things. What you got to do is I mean, that don't do this. But what you got to do is you get like one of those obvious earpieces or something like that and then just pretend to be stock trading all the time.
Speaker: And then you could still wave. Right. But it's clear that no verbal communication is going to happen because you're buying and selling and wrong or whatever stock is vogue these days.
Speaker: um I know it's not Enron for the record.
Speaker: ah But yeah, it's fun. Interacting with humans is a normal, comprehensible experience. Yeah. And I love how everybody's shit.
Speaker: Yeah. ah That's the human. That's the humanizing factor in it.
Speaker: But you know what else is the humanizing factor in it? Our shared love of video games. And recently, very recently, I played a video game in preparation for this episode, ah which I shouldn't be leading into it because we titled these things.
Speaker: um As promised, broken promised, re-promised, Deltarune 4, chapter 4, I should say.
Speaker: we're back we're we ran the exact same client uh it's convenient i mean that is it is no it is nice we talked about the value proposition i'm just not used to that change quite yet yeah but it's it legitimizes it more so i'm a fan yeah for sure um ah Hopefully you guys have listened to our Delta Rune chapter three episode, um or you're just here to listen to us talk.
Speaker: and Those are the two camps that it probably makes sense to listen to this one. ah In case the listener didn't know why they're listening, we're going to encourage you to pick one of these two lanes.
Speaker: i feel like off the jump, it's probably worth saying it's very difficult to talk about anything in this one. without in some way explaining spoilers, like touching spoilers.
Speaker: So let's just get that out of the way. i mean, kind of similar to chapter three, there's not like wildly new mechanics. We can talk about some like interesting enemy encounters.
Speaker: yeah But as with all of these games, a lot of it is going to be Here's what's going on the story. Here's what we think is going on with the story. um And just talk about like some fun, memorable moments or your theory crafting.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It's not really possible to avoid spoilers. This would be going back. This is very old to like Half-Life Episode one and two. and it's like we're now we're covering two.
Speaker: I guess we can't talk about the story at all. It's okay as a shooter. Maybe it should be longer. Okay, that's about all the information you can get. You know, bye. um we can't even talk about the guns because those could be spoilers, I guess.
Speaker: um But there's a lot going on in Deltarune and 4 is very character driven. So, official disclaimer, talking spoilers. um It's a very... I'm really curious where this is all going.
Speaker: So I want to first off ask you, how did it feel? going to use air quotes here because of your last comment. How does it feel playing two Deltarune chapters back to back?
Speaker: It feels like this is probably how the game should be played. Like to me. I mean, you're not wrong. Yeah. Like I mentioned this in the previous episode, but the gap between the release of Deltarune Chapter ah chapter two going into chapter three was extensive. It was enough for me to basically like lose context about everything that was going on.
Speaker: And there wasn't really a recap. Conversely, going from three to four, i was like, I remember what these characters were doing. i remember, you know, we're trying to get into the cellar.
Speaker: um Like all of that context was there and it helped a lot. Because I didn't have to... i think it it takes more active um more active engagement to be catching up with what's going on in a world, as well as experiencing the vibes and and the character interactions and things like that. It's a reason like starting an RPG sucks sometimes.
Speaker: Because you're like you have to divert all of this attention into figuring out what... like like Ula Song means. You're like, I don't know what that is. Is that a place? Is that a thing?
Speaker: And then you're also trying to figure out like party dynamics and what's going on with the protagonist, whatever. If you have all that setting established and it's just like last time on The Walking Dead. All right, now we go straight into it.
Speaker: That's nice. Yeah, I like having it as an option, especially when you have those larger gaps. Mm hmm. Thankfully, I just always come across some subreddit things, so I feel like I've never really been too far away from it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, and I don't want to i don't want to beat a dead horse. like i I don't think it's strictly necessary, but this is the sort of thing where if you haven't played Deltarune at all, up to this point, you can play chapters 1 through 4,
Speaker: and that's going to be a better experience, I think, than playing um one, two, waiting several years, three, four.
Speaker: um But also, if you haven't played chapters 1 through 4, you guys are still listening? like We had to disclaim um it. Definitely, once everything's out, going have to go back and replay it.
Speaker: Besides you know being abreast with all of the current ah community fan community theories, it would be nice to have everything in context sequentially so I can kind of build my own...
Speaker: theory crafting or headcanon ah kind of piecing things together because again like between episodes one and two um Remember episode two. i remember the last boss of the first one. Uh-huh So yeah lot of time passes, right? Yeah, um definitely worth gonna going back at a point.
Speaker: I guess, so my question to you is another thing that I've really noticed across the last two episodes is um there are a lot of secrets and there are secret bosses and um it seems to me that it would be It would be more difficult to experience a lot of what the game has for you unless you learned about it after the fact or you were just following the guide and then you went back and did it.
Speaker: I didn't follow a guide for this. I was just like playthrough the first time. That could be a motivation to go back to the game and do another playthrough. But it basically does require this idea, like understanding that there's more that you didn't experience that you could kind of get through Reddit or wikis or whatever.
Speaker: um The path not chosen. Yeah. How do you how do you feel about that from ah gameplay perspective from a design perspective for Delta Rune?
Speaker: This is ah have to remove my bias because we call him Toby Fox for a reason. um Overall, as a thing, i am less of a fan of it because as with, I'm sure a lot of people, you're going to hit that point of like, I know this is a branching path yeah and whatever I choose is going to be permanent and lock me out of something else.
Speaker: Mm hmm. So, there's always going be that question kind of like, but what would this have been? Because a lot of people, myself included to a degree, like to go around and like kind of check everything first before we like, oh, I know I'm going be progressing the story or plot and then I won't be able to come back here. So, let me do everything while I am here.
Speaker: Right. So, when you're kind of... forced into those pick things i definitely feel like you're be losing out still worth going back to play again but there is a part of me that would i guess feel a little remiss to have to go back to experience that right um but as far as there just being secrets I like that they exist because I never find anything in a first playthrough, especially not on these types of games.
Speaker: um But I'm glad that they exist because I feel it makes the the game deeper. It's not just, hey, you played the exact same thing everybody else did.
Speaker: Or it's, oh, I found this little nugget that gives me more lore. Right. No, I agree. I agree with that take. I think it's also helpful when there are going there's going to be a a delay between the releases of the chapters, right?
Speaker: It's not like the next chapter dump is going to be the rest of the series, right? It's not going to be like five through seven or five through eight. Yeah. And so it gives you a little bit more gameplay as you go through it.
Speaker: ah We know that the, or according to the announced release date, which I, of all people, I pretty much expect Toby Fox to be able to hit it, um is that the next chapter will come out next year.
Speaker: it um Which is really nice. After the wait for chapter two, I don't recall exactly how long it was, but it was a while, right? It was it was like two years between chapters one and two, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker: well we Oh, sorry. I meant from like two to three and four. We had like a very big gap. That was three plus? Yeah, it was a long time.
Speaker: um So i I like that there's some some incentive to stay... I mean, not just stay within the community. That's crazy to say. If you know anything about the Deltarune Undertale community, um they are entirely enthralled and addicted and just like a feedback loop of insanity and memes and Azrael smoking ah blunt and all this other stuff.
Speaker: um So they were always going to be engaged. But for the people who play video games to play video games, there's also a little bit more you can get out of
Speaker: Yeah. ah How did you feel about the tone of chapter four compared to chapter three? I really like chapter four tone wise more, but that's people shouldn't be too surprised. And I was like, chapter three is like a game. show It's literally a game show for so much of it.
Speaker: um And then it starts to accelerate a bit towards the end once they remember the more serious roots. um Chapter four is like, foreboding yeah the chapter um and as a edgelord i mean i'm i'm here for it um i say that basically going through on a pacifist playthrough but i could appreciate the darker themes that the series has um yeah But I think somebody in the subreddit posted that chapter three is like very kind of bright and shiny.
Speaker: But it's like in reality, it's talking about some darker, serious stuff. Yeah. And then chapter four, like the whole setting is much much more serious and atmospheric.
Speaker: And then it's like, hey, here's what the titles of the last ah chapters are going to be. Uh-huh. Yeah. so so I guess I should say a big part of chapter four is talking about the prophecy yes but of things to come and also kind of laying out what the next chapters are going to be roughly titled or roughly going to be for like an overall one line subject matter.
Speaker: Yeah. and this It's doing a lot of
Speaker: lore and like planning. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's it's laying it out because, like you mentioned, it is the prophecy broken into pieces.
Speaker: And presumably each of these will relate directly to the upcoming upcoming chapters, which is good. Because this also means this what this but this pretty much makes impossible is the reality that Toby Fox is just making this all up as he goes, which I would love to say people don't do.
Speaker: But I have played Destiny. So like I know so people do that. I think from a post that Toby Fox had at some point basically said that like um the reason there was such a long gap between those chapters is that they were kind of working on planning out the storyline and everything.
Speaker: And now they're kind of like building those pieces. Yeah. Yeah. And that makes sense. Like it's it's better to take the time to make sure that you can make it all land together um because it would be very easy to lose cohesion across.
Speaker: Yeah. Eight chapters. Right. And this is definitely a game where ah small things will be. don't want to say hidden, but kind of hidden in plain sight to maybe foreshadow something else or might be.
Speaker: Hey, do you remember this from a previous chapter? Just kind of tying everything together. Yeah. Yeah. And also the community is really good at finding that stuff and pointing it out.
Speaker: Uh-huh. It's one of the one of the things that um Toby Fox does really well is withhold information in a way that is satisfying.
Speaker: And this is pretty much essential to storytelling, I think. um At least in any interesting story. And it's going to build things like fan theories, right? It's going to build things like conspiracy theories, absolutely like off the walls ideas about where things could be um headed.
Speaker: But... I believe that in this particular case, it's actually building towards something, right? I was making fun of Destiny a bit ago, and like I'm out of that ecosystem now. I'm i'm i'm free.
Speaker: He's reformed. ah Yeah, exactly. I don't play Destiny 2 after the final shape. I'm good. um But they use intrigue with no payoff a lot of the time, or intrigue where you're always writing forward and you're never writing backwards from something that you know will be, and that's inherently less...
Speaker: ah we Less gratifying. um It's really nice when things are actually consistent and maybe some of the theories we have about what's going on in Delta Rune could plausibly be true and it's not because toby fox is just gonna read people's ideas and be like that one that makes sense let's do that it's not like a george r martin thing um it's just i guess i'm just slandering everyone today um but rather ah we've established that just because we don't have the answers right now doesn't mean they don't exist like they are coming and chapter four is just the threat of answers
Speaker: Yeah. it There's also just so much going on in this episode as well, or chapter, I should say. um Because this is also the chapter where we first get to meet Noelle's mom.
Speaker: Yeah. She's been mentioned before, but it hasn't really had an active role. um We get to see Asgore a little more. yeah Oh, yeah. She's like...
Speaker: I'm going to use the term because it exists, but like, like ice cold bitch face. Yes. I think is like the best way to describe it. Like a very, very, very cold persona.
Speaker: Um, like looks at you, sends chills down your spine. You're like, okay.
Speaker: Which is like a huge contrast to Noel, who's very cheery, upbeat, meek. Um, Yeah, I like i like the the the scene with her house um because you reach a point where you're trying to get the key, ah the unlock key for the seller.
Speaker: um And Noelle's mom is like, she's involved with city council something. She's the mayor. She's the mayor, yeah. And so they're like, okay, maybe this is actually at her house because you find out that she keeps records at her house.
Speaker: So you um head out there. under the pretense of studying to try to like snoop around and find the key. um And Noelle's house is like 100%.
Speaker: It's like Christmas themed, but it's also like I feel like what they were going for, and maybe this is projection on my part, is like your Christian friend's house. It's very much like that. Like things are just perfectly assigned.
Speaker: There's the room that you're not allowed to go into because probably somebody died. And so they just left everything the way it is. And there's way too much Jesus theming everywhere.
Speaker: in this case, it's Christmas. Like, it's already just, they just flip it over. So it's like, this is non-religious, guys. It's Christmas. But I mean, her name's Noel. And Chris is technically short for Christmas.
Speaker: Yes. Yeah. It's holiday game. Yeah. Die hard. I don't know if I want to go into the the full theory stuff yet. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: We were talking about death, though. Noelle's. Mom, is that death? Is that her name? No, death is her sister. die Oh, OK. Well, then that makes some of the theories make a little bit more sense.
Speaker: What is Noelle's mom's name? I'm going to look it up. Oh, my God, I'm blanking on that. Uh, Carol. Right. Of course. Tracks. Uh-huh.
Speaker: Tracks out. Um, but yeah, uh, so you do your snooping around. ah some people touch a guitar they're not supposed to touch. There's a really weird sequence where Chris rips out his soul and, uh, basically like imprisons it while he wanders around like a zombie. but youre What were you, what you, what, how,
Speaker: What were your impressions while this was going on? Because it's such a weird sequence. So, I mean, the last time we really saw, quote unquote, Chris without soul, I think was at like the end of chapter two. Because then at the end of chapter two, he creates the dark world for chapter three.
Speaker: Right. Oh, that's right. That's like the first time like we just... that I'm remembering at least where he just like rips out the soul and you're like, Oh, what the fuck?
Speaker: Cause you, you know, you think just like with undertale, ah, this character represents like the soul of this character I'm playing as. Um, but yeah, seeing it act as like a literal separate entity, like while you're going through the vents is kind of wild. And if it like ever sees you,
Speaker: it I mean, to be fair, like you're supposed to go a certain way to progress. Yeah. ah But it will like CC you by like whipping an object at you. Uh-huh.
Speaker: Yeah. It's trying to very much control you, keep you down, keep you. It receives a phone call from something. ah Sorry. Chris receives a phone call from something that's like, hey, um she can't get the guitar.
Speaker: And you find out that like, oh, as you're reading, like you find the guitar, Chris finds the guitar and starts to read the code that's inside the guitar, which is to the, uh, the seller.
Speaker: Right. And as you're reading the letters, um, he rips his soul out, right? Like he, he, something takes control of him and it's just like, okay, this goes to what you were saying, but Spoilers, minor theming spoilers for Undertale. In Undertale, some of the the conflict was between um the player and the player character, right?
Speaker: Because the player was making decisions and the player character is Frisk. Um, and so they do interesting things on what it means if, uh, you, the player are the overriding, uh, intention for what's being done.
Speaker: Um, and that's where the genocide route comes through and things like that. In this one, the corollary seems to be like Chris's soul is not at all in alignment with Chris, the character.
Speaker: Yeah. And Chris, the character, is seemingly an antagonist, or at least working in opposition to the goals of um Chris's soul, which is the player, basically.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a pretty apt to say. Because you control the heart, right? Like you control the soul anytime they're separate. Yeah, and when they're together, you're controlling, quote-unquote, the body because the soul is in the body.
Speaker: Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: Kids game. um Yeah, it's a game for kids. it's It's pretty messed up. I mean, also, it's dark and creepy when Chris is moving around without the soul because it is like he's being puppeted. Yeah. um So I want to just rip the bandit off and get into some stuff.
Speaker: Yeah. So I will say for my personal opinion, and this is also kind of fed by the community's fan theory. The thought of the person who's on the phone with Chris is Carol.
Speaker: Okay. Yeah. Because they say like, Hey, I'll be right there. Yes. And then Carol shows up. Yeah. Earlier than anticipated. And, um,
Speaker: She also says like before they leave and like she kicks everybody off. She's like, hey, but you, Chris, you are always welcome. So it seems like, again, Carol's a very cold person.
Speaker: But with Chris, she seems pretty buddy buddy with. Yeah. Which is interesting. um And i know a lot of people.
Speaker: I think after chapter three, you know, they're at least the same time. Somehow I saw very limited spoilers. Um, a lot of people think that or thought that the night was actually Carol because antlers, um, also they do mention that her mom just, Noelle's mom, Carol has a katana and you're like, well, sword antlers, uh, kind of tracks.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But the other more prominent theory is ah the night is Yeah. yeah December.
Speaker: Yeah. Because a she's been mentioned every single episode since episode two. i keep saying episode, chapter. Yeah. um And you know that her name is December because of when she was born.
Speaker: And then in Chapter 3, December 25th is put in as a code for something. gosh you Gotcha, gotcha. I don't remember if you do that in Chapter 4 as well.
Speaker: um Also, we know Des passed away. And we don't know how, i don't believe... um right But her room is the one that has not been touched and people aren't allowed in. yeah Everything is kind of left in that state.
Speaker: hmm. OK. So. intense
Speaker: Yeah, that is the theory. I'll get into a little bit more of why that is when we get to the Gerson stuff later. But yeah. Huh.
Speaker: No, that all makes sense. That makes a lot more sense, actually. And I could see why people would be suspicious like of Carol initially, but Des makes a ton more sense.
Speaker: And it's mentioned in every chapter you said. Like, yeah, that's... That seems pretty... It would be very weird. It would be ah the most ah plot twist for subversion's sake to not have that mean anything.
Speaker: And usually Toby Fox doesn't write that way. he does that He's not like, aha, I led you all down this alleyway so I could assassinate your expectations. so It's like, no.
Speaker: Yeah, I think the two big things at this point that kind of lead people to believe the antlers obviously as well. I didn't even see him. I had to look up the roaring knight.
Speaker: Yeah. As you were talking, I was like, oh my gosh, they are antlers. And it's because of kind of genius sprite design because the roaring knight is all angular shapes um and is like a silhouette.
Speaker: Um, and so i was like, oh, these could be horns. They could be whatever it could be. Like they have spiky pauldrons that almost yeah yeah lightning bolts. Um, and so it's like, this just looks like other kinds of lightning bolts coming off the head.
Speaker: Now they're antlers. Like they really are though. yeah Yeah. Your, your brain's always going to interpret whatever it thinks it can be and be like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker: It's probably that. Yeah. Mm hmm. ah But also there's the song raise up your bat. Okay. And I think death December has a baseball bat in her room as well. um yeah There's also talk of like her playing music and seemed like it's a song that she wrote or something.
Speaker: um Also, I want to get full crackpot putting on the aluminum hat. Uh-huh. So again, December's room is in like perfect condition. It has not been touched. Nobody's allowed in there. Yeah. And the only reason that you would do that, i mean, obviously this is her parents doing.
Speaker: Because you want to preserve the memory. Right. And you don't want it tarnished in any way. Because obviously like you care very deeply about ah that person.
Speaker: Right. Also, Carol being Des' mother...
Speaker: I will say having a dog, I feel very parentally for my dog daughter. yeah I know it's nothing near having an actual kid. It's stronger. It's stronger. It's definitely stronger. People that have kids, they're not even trying. and They don't even care.
Speaker: They have so much free time. What are they even doing? um But like if anything happened to her, would lose my shit and I would do everything in my power to like protect her, keep her safe or something happened to her.
Speaker: sh Try and fix her or bring her back. Yeah. Necromancy. That is what you're leading. Yeah. So jumping ahead now, because I'm just on this train.
Speaker: Yeah. um When Susie opens the dark world, which is like the more twisted dark world. um
Speaker: i think Gerson, they find the ashes of Gerson, or like his tomb or his bones, whatever it was. yeah But he was not alive in that dark world.
Speaker: Yeah, they find him in the church, in the office, where ah his son is working. Oh, they found that in the light world.
Speaker: Yeah, it's in the light world. That's where the hammer is with ah with dust. Yeah. So, in the real world, he's not alive. Yeah.
Speaker: But when you go to the dark world in chapter four, Interesting. Interesting. And he his ah it's a very nice color character concept, right? Because Susie is um i mean, on one hand, she's a trope, but she's also like an interesting character and that she is basically constantly struggling with this.
Speaker: The fact that she doesn't need to be a jerk anymore. She still does sometimes just for fun um or, you know, because it's it's her personality. ah But she is more comfortable showing vulnerability and like working through her things. And one of those people who helps is Gerson, um who ah basically acts as a mentor.
Speaker: And the way that they actually... They kind of have this very... It's non-distracting. It's a quick little character arc where Susie keeps trying to heal people. And ah Noelle is... Or no, Ralsei is just um so much better at it.
Speaker: ah And Ralsei is like, okay, and like don't worry. We can just work together. We can do this. And Susie's like... She's like, yeah, but... I've been trying to get better at this and it's devastating that I can't seem to.
Speaker: And Gerson like helps her through that. And so she really respects him. Um, because he's basically acting like a father to her, to be completely honest, someone that she can respect.
Speaker: And ultimately he, ah is, he's writing this letter that he wants her to remember and then recreate in the light world,
Speaker: to give to is his son. who is his son Um, and it's basically a letter saying like the reason that I didn't go to church cause Alvin's the, uh, the pastor or whatever minister. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker: It's like the reason I didn't go to church is because like, I didn't want to get in your way, but, uh, I'm really proud of you essentially. Like, I'm really proud that you made it. Um, which is like incredibly touching. And there's all these like misspellings and things because Susie wrote the letter when you read it, which is great.
Speaker: Um, but it's like, it's incredible. And to what you were saying is also precedent for people, someone who died in the light world, their intent or a part of who they are carrying over in the dark world.
Speaker: Yeah. So that i won't say open opens up a can of worms, but it kind does introduce the possibility for December to be alive in the dark world.
Speaker: hmm. Um, But then I guess the question is, how are they creating the dark worlds? Because they would need to do that from the light world, right?
Speaker: Right. Yeah. I mean... This is of things where just some questions are keep arising that we don't yet have the answers to, as you were saying.
Speaker: Yeah, it is. um i am kind of curious because ah I don't know if it's established. So the the protagonists assume that the roaring night can create the fountains from the dark world.
Speaker: But they might be wrong about that, right? It could be Carol is doing this. We saw Chris did this at the end of chapter two, like you said. And Susie does it to create the um kind of like misshapen dark world in the church. um So one potential is that...
Speaker: the roaring knight actually doesn't have the ability to do this at all. And they just assumed sure that the knight does. um There is a little bit. I kind of am of of the opinion that that might be too far a stretch. I like that. I hope that one's true.
Speaker: But I think it might be too far a stretch because of like the Titan fight. And they're like, okay, this was a fountain that was created with so much power that it caused like this Titan to emerge. And there's this really cool 3D-esque boss fight. like Again, I said the production value was going hard in Chapter 3. There were things in Chapter 4 where I'm like...
Speaker: This is not just sprites on a black and white background anymore, guys. um
Speaker: It goes pretty hard. it's It's great. like Some of the gameplay mechanics are honestly excellent. And we started talking about story, so we'll never get to the gameplay. but like um Yeah, I'm really curious where it's all going. And there plenty of questions. We don't know to what extent...
Speaker: um i gotta find i'm gonna find the the prophecy i actually have it up because i wanted to say something about it yeah well you you take you take point there i'll follow up with some other stuff okay so at this point i'm assuming i'm just speaking to other people who have played chapter all the chapters and are kind of like with us on the theory train yeah so please bear that in mind um So a point of the prophecy says, it's kind of like listing out some of the characters involved in the prophecy.
Speaker: The first hero, the cage with human soul and parts. Yeah. Badass name. But we believe this to be Chris. Yes. Because has a human soul and they can be separated.
Speaker: Yeah. So that seems to track, right? Also the word and and the part of the phrase and parts is because this is English, right? And Toby knows this. He knows that English can be ambiguous, right?
Speaker: Because this could be a human soul and parts and the parts are of like pieces of the body. Yeah, it could be no relation to the rest of the sentence, essentially. um But it's ah it could also be the cage with human soul and human parts.
Speaker: Right. Because that would that word that could be read that same way and with human soul and human parts um where the word is just associated attached to both. I thought you were going the other way.
Speaker: ah hu it could be like with human soul and parts. Exactly. That's the other reading. Like d parts. Like parts from the body.
Speaker: Yeah. And I think that's a fair reading as well, right? Like Chris could be a humunculus or something at this point, right? Mm-hmm. And also, Chris is kind of a weirdo, so it isn't it's not too far out there.
Speaker: Motherfuckers out here eating moss. yeah It is very funny that you just eat moss at different times. um Did you like the juice pouring into each other's mouths thing? Oh, yeah, yeah. They were just like, oh, let's both get some church juice.
Speaker: ah Communion, I guess, but they don't call it that because, again, not having religious connotations. Alright, time to drink pour it it in each other's mouth for the animation. also like that um ah not Undyne. Can't remember name.
Speaker: ah She loves Undyne though. Elphys. Yes, Elphys. I was like, al Elf is wrong. Elphys is like ah she wants juice but she wants a particular mix.
Speaker: She's like, I want 25% red, yellow mix for juice. And you can go over there and like the dialogue choices are, um it's like you skillfully ah titrate or titrate like juice to like get your mix. So i was like, okay, I'm going to start with 25% red. And it's like your cup red in it. i'm like,
Speaker: That's not how percentages make any sense. But you could just add three more portions of yellow each in 25%. And now you have 100% you have to 25, 75%. insane. And like doesn't even work, but just
Speaker: insane and like the math doesn't even work but it's just It's such a great... Like, the humor is so good in this game. It really is there was There was one other one related to the church that stood out to me.
Speaker: And it was after you're done with your fact-finding at the church. They step out and they're like, we don't want to wear these church clothes anymore. So they do, like, a Super Sentai spin, transform, basically, to their normal clothes.
Speaker: But, like, their... their church clothes fly off and land in the grass and like you can interact uh go up and like interact with the church clothes and it just says like the text box just says like they have returned to the earth ah my gosh like the writing is so good it just like slaps you with something original and hilarious I will say in that same vein, going back to the juice, because I'm watching some playthrough as like a catch up for my own sake.
Speaker: And if you already have like the cup full, 100% full of juice and you go to add more, It just says like the cup is already at 100% juice.
Speaker: You reach the limits of your power. It's so good. yeah It's so out there. Going back to prophecy thing. We we have Chris.
Speaker: Yeah. I'm holding up a cage. how Luke Cage. We call him the third hero. The prince alone in deepest dark. Right. I'll say I feel like we can all agree on that one.
Speaker: Mm hmm. um The second hero girl with hope crossed on her heart.
Speaker: Who's that? Yeah. And this one's Susie, right? Presumably. Not necessarily. But it's what they it's what they they lean into.
Speaker: That is, yeah. Susie has hopes even at the end of chapter four. it seems Susie actually breaks part of the prophecy um that is making her very distraught.
Speaker: The implication, they don't outright say it because she breaks it before you see it. But the implication is that Ralsei, or in this case, the the third hero, the prince, will have to sacrifice himself.
Speaker: um to ah close the last fountain or perhaps destroy the dark world or something like that will happen and Ralsei will be doomed.
Speaker: And that makes up like that revelation in implication makes up like the entirety of Ralsei's character because Ralsei is like to an incredibly unhealthy extent.
Speaker: Literally, I'm fine if you step on me. He says that in this game. They made that a dialogue choice. Tons of people took pictures of it. um Or a dialogue thing. Tons of people took pictures.
Speaker: um But also, he's incredibly self-sacrificing. Yes. His room has nothing in it except a Ralsei doll and a window. And like he basically exists to try to make Chris and Susie happier whenever they're in the dark world.
Speaker: Yeah. And ah portion of the game is kind of interacting with Ralsei. And depending on your choices, whether you're a dick or not. Oh, my gosh. Basically.
Speaker: Yeah. uh affirming or i'll say like hey you can have thoughts and feelings that are your own okay to want things be at the whim of others you don't have to smile all the time yeah so you can express thoughts and emotion um yeah but you were saying for this uh for the second hero maybe the girl with hope crossed on her heart is not susie
Speaker: Yeah, and the reason that it's been brought up is basically um at the start of the game in Deltarune, you're supposed to be doing a project with Noelle.
Speaker: And then Susie just kind of shows up and then you get stuck in a project with Susie. Ah, okay. So, some people are taking that to be ah basically Noelle is supposed to be part of the prophecy and Susie is actually not in not a part of the prophecy at all.
Speaker: Right. And Noel has all of these again. They're not like overt about the religious symbolism, but she, everything about the trope is this is the Christian girl um yeah in the strict parent household where her parents don't really get along. And like the mom is ice cold and all that whole, everything there is right here.
Speaker: Classic Christian. Yeah. yeah um With hope crossed on her heart, maybe. you know wasn't thinking about it like that but yeah that i hope he comes back fingers crossed
Speaker: so that thought was interesting um and then there's another one that says and last was the girl at last was the girl yeah Again, English.
Speaker: They're playing games with They're saying as a part like the last of this list was the girl and they say also at last was the girl. Yeah. So it makes it seem like this girl is being awaited by somebody, something is to come.
Speaker: Which could possibly align with December. Yeah. If the the plan is to try and bring her back. It's also the last month.
Speaker: Yep. Oh, shit. Yeah. I'm glad I have you on this podcast, man. If I do this shit solo, wouldn' I wouldn't get any of these. Yeah. No, that's crazy.
Speaker: Yeah, there's just a lot of things in this chapter specifically where it's, oh, well, what if it's this? Oh, what if it's this? Yeah,
Speaker: yeah there's literally just pauses here, which I'm sure aren't the best for a podcast, but we're just sitting here like looking at the the prophecy. Because this is, so if you want to get me interested in a game,
Speaker: uh have some interesting plot lines and things going on and then drop a vague prophecy um this is this is tailored to make me interested in what's going on because from ah storytelling perspective you are locking yourself in you have to fulfill these to some degree um and you're you know you're saying there's a plan right um it's worth noting.
Speaker: Uh, there are certain characters who really do not seem to like this prophecy at all. Uh, Gerson in particular, it seems to go out of his way to like mock it or break it.
Speaker: And, And by break the prophecy, i mean break the words. They show up on the background. And Azrael, sorry, Ralsei. I've literally called Ralsei Azrael at least twice um for reasons.
Speaker: um ah ah He mentions that like the text always comes back. it will The prophecy always returns. You'll see it somewhere else, right?
Speaker: Um, but there's kind of this Gerson really, um really appreciates when you push back against the idea that things are set in stone based off the dialogue in the game.
Speaker: Um, He's kind of like an old man and ah apparently a secret boss, which I didn't know. um But he yeah hes he's one of the ones that's pushing back against this.
Speaker: um I think that's an important thing in the prophecy trope as well. You need to have people that fight against it or try to find ways to subvert it. Yeah, because I think... like with many many other stories i'm sure people have come across this before i can even use the god second god of war where basically there is a prophecy and it's i don't want this thing to happen how do i take actions to prevent that from happening and maybe it's because you're trying to avoid it you kind of fall into it ah but it's this idea of
Speaker: The person hearing that doesn't want to be told all these things are going to play out this way. You don't really have a choice. You don't have agency. You can't do anything to change this. Yeah. um
Speaker: There's... I'm looking at the prophecy here, and this is basic. This episode is just for us and somehow nerds. But I'm also realizing as I read this, as I read the lines, um it is also um a it It does rhyme.
Speaker: The prophecy rhymes on every three lines. So this is the thing we were talking about as far as the hidden line that Susie breaks um and is emotionally distraught about.
Speaker: But um so we'll talk about the one... ah So you had the girl, the girl, and then they go for it. And then when all hope is lost for the tale, the final tragedy unveils the last prophecy, the stories end to save the world. So there's only one way for to save the world.
Speaker: We last of all say, and then there's the unknown, and unknown line. And, I'm wondering if this is specifically because it's supposed to rhyme with Rolse.
Speaker: With Rolse, yeah. um Which would also kind of be crazy because that none of these others have names. They just call them Hero 1, 2, 3. So maybe that doesn't really fit. So there's not going to be some grand revelation.
Speaker: um But yeah, unknown. Only then will the worlds be saved. The angel banished will finally meet with its desire. Um, which is what I would write in a D and d prophecy to be vague, but also compelling.
Speaker: Um, yeah. And it's, so I will say for like the, the logo that's shown here for the Delta road looks an awful lot like the final boss of undertale.
Speaker: Yeah. Um, So I think that's supposed represent. Actually, another I think they say this in Undertale that that's so supposed to represent the angel, whatever the angel is. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. yeah i I'm really curious to see how IRL, Asriel, Chris's brother who went to college, is going to be involved in this.
Speaker: Because I think we know that like both families, the holidays and the dreamers, we're close. So think it's theorized that like December and as we were probably around the same age.
Speaker: Gotcha. Uh, and we're close as well. Um,
Speaker: Yeah, because this goes back to what we were saying some in chapter three. We don't know. it feels like at some point this has to entwine with some of the stuff that was going on with Undertale.
Speaker: Yeah. Clearly, you know, this is prologue because, you know, they're not underground at this point. And um in Chapter 4, there are even some interactions between Toriel and Asgore.
Speaker: um They're largely of a similar variety than what was in Undertale, which is like these people are split and Toriel wants nothing to do with Asgore.
Speaker: And Asgore It's actually hilarious. i'm going to say the scene because it's after you leave church because Toriel convinces Chris and Susie to go.
Speaker: give them the church clothes, all that stuff. It's after you like leave church, um, as Gorr jumps out of a ah bush with a bouquet of flowers. And it's just like, Oh, fancy meeting you here. As soon as you left church, trying to, uh, train, trying to talk tutorial. And she, really she really, she doesn't like, she doesn't despise him at this point.
Speaker: Cause, um, I mean, he does kill kids eventually, um which I think does minimize ah how much he likes them even more Undertale.
Speaker: um But clearly he's done something to piss her off at this point. They're separated. Yeah. And we also don't know why that is. That is true. Yeah. Again, the fan theory is like.
Speaker: Again, it's solely out of memes that this was born, but because Asgore's theme in Undertale is Bergen trucking, which is... I think it's a trope specifically when you have like a hero that's been like waiting to come back for like the right moment.
Speaker: Like they finally awaken for their time to like rise again and protect them from the great evil type thing. Right. And people are like, oh, truck? And whatever other connection they made, they're like, oh, Asgore hit December with a truck. And it's been memed to shit and it's grown. So...
Speaker: aha so and Look it up if you're curious. It's yeah nonsense. but you The easiest way to find this, the search engine optimization, asgoredui. That will get you there.
Speaker: but It's very funny. ill yeah Do you remember the Gerson's saying the the other episode names.
Speaker: Keep saying episode. I'm not sure um for the the chapters. Maybe I missed that. um I took it at face value when you said that that was in the game.
Speaker: was like, makes sense. Must have missed it. um
Speaker: letting I'm buying time. Old Dave looks this up. He'll nod knowingly to himself once ah once he once he has this, but in the interim. I'm going to say um my review of the game, it's ah it's real good.
Speaker: um But I do recommend people play through several of them back to back. They're usually about like four to five hours, maybe a little bit longer if you farm a bit or if you struggle in fights.
Speaker: um But it's a lot easier to track everything that's going on and the character developments and things like that if you pe them if you play them back to back. So that's my recommendation. We're at the halfway point, right? so Of this episode? All right.
Speaker: for For some reason, i don't know. I don't remember how long we talked for episode three. probably about an hour. um Two hours on episode four. Here is everything we expect expect is going to happen beyond what is actually in the game.
Speaker: The next one, chapter five, four hours. Uh-huh. This is my favorite line while you look for that. My favorite line from the prophecy is the pointy headed will say toothpaste and then boy.
Speaker: Because they have to inject Lancer in every time. ah um But to be fair, Lancer is literally like the... Literally the whoopee cushion character. oh incredibly. So, yeah, there is a in chapter four. you can like revisit the common area in the dark world. The one that's still open, I guess, in the school.
Speaker: And and There's a scene where like Lancers on ah I was going say parapet. i don't know if that's correct or not, but ah a wall fortification.
Speaker: And like as you walk by, like I heard like a sound um and I wasn't really sure what's going on. And then I entered like the next area and he's just like riding on Susie's back.
Speaker: He's ah he has jumped down and is now just getting a piggyback ride through the area. Does nothing gameplay wise for the game. It's just hilarious that he just shows up.
Speaker: They do a really... Again, I've said this a million times, and I think a lot of good games will do this. They do a really good job of blending, hey, here's this serious, heavier shit.
Speaker: Yeah. And then, like, hey, it's okay, yay! Uh-huh. Coming out with, like, the ah sprinklers and the lights and everything. um Because, yeah, I remember in...
Speaker: undertale you're playing through this thing you don't know what's going on you have this encounter with toriel you accidentally killed her because you didn't know was going to deal that much damage literally happened to everybody and then i was emotionally like in a bad place at the time yeah so that hit pretty hard and then unintended yeah sure do you um And then after like this slow walk, as you go past the ah the closed doors where you murdered Toriel, you then meet Sans and there's literally like a a whoopee cushion noise. And I'm like, okay, that really, it brought me back.
Speaker: It just, again, took a chip out of the armor. yeah That's a better way to say it than the way I said it. hu Yeah.
Speaker: I'm sorry. I'll tell you later. No, I know. I think what you're saying is still correct to say. Well, it it is an expression. I did not mean it as a racial epithet. No, I know. That that word also, i guess, does have another meaning.
Speaker: um It's also just... Old expression. um Yeah, they are very good. I was going to say, i don't want to i don't want to take focus away from the game at the end of the episode, but other games, when they do nail this balance, it's really good.
Speaker: Borderlands at its best is a game that can balance the absurd and the tragic. um Fallout like the original ones like the older ones they were also really good at this they were terrible and not even just the original ones even like New Vegas there were absolutely terrible reprehensible vault experiments and then you're running around listening to like Mr. New Vegas like big iron on his hip and stuff like that and it's like the dissonance it's about the dissonance there I think Toby Fox does a much better job than those examples of having both the highs and the lows and he uses the lows
Speaker: as like a whiplash moment. And he uses the highs as a whiplash moment where it's just like, this is hilarious, not just because it's legitimately funny, but also because I was feeling some things off the last thing that happened, right? um And just does like an excellent job at that. Not to say he's a master emotional manipulator, but he's like expert.
Speaker: He's playing Super Punch Out with my emotions. Can we say that?
Speaker: Head, head, gut, gut, gut.
Speaker: I was going to say something else to that effect. um with Toby Fox and the good writing. Blank it on exactly what it was. You're probably to say it was good writing.
Speaker: That was my like comment. It's good. yeah It's good. It's interesting. oh I was going to say, because we have these highs and lows and they're kind of whiplashed, as the story progresses, you never really know in which direction it's going to go.
Speaker: yeah So when there are like... somebody who has like a trailing sentence, you start to read into those things more because you're like, is this a deeper meaning? Or is this just part of like a light joke?
Speaker: You're not sure where to gauge everything. So everything that you encounter, you're kind of like, okay, I need to take everything possibly literally. Yeah. And it gets you, I think more engaged.
Speaker: They do a really good, an incredible job of taking, a particular line of dialogue and then just ah arranging it in such a way for maximum discomfort or humor.
Speaker: Um, and the prep for this one, I was, I was reading back on the snow grave route, which we've already talked about. That's not in this episode. um There's some dialogue differences, things like that. If you're on that path, um basically.
Speaker: But it does seem like overall... This is not really like Undertale, where it's like... um If you're doing a genocide route, ah that just carries through the entire thing. This one... Maybe... like Some of those choices do persist, but it's not like...
Speaker: the gameplay is ah vastly different because you're doing something completely different now. So grave was kind of like a little bit of a one off from a gameplay perspective.
Speaker: There is other stuff in three we talked about, I think with the the sword route. Yeah, I don't think that locks you out of anything, though. I think that is just bonus things that you can do. yeah hmm.
Speaker: Which again, i think is the better way to do it. um But I do think three stuff is pretty cool. um Four, the only thing I'm remembering is secret boss fight with Gerson that you said. Yeah.
Speaker: Which I didn't know was a secret, but I did encounter it. yeah If you're going for completion, you'll you'll you'll run across it. I was going to say though, just an eye to the dialogue, and this is all the way back in like chapter two.
Speaker: um But I didn't know this until I was prepping for this. If Chris goes down in the fight with Birdly, Birdly will say like, Noelle, like Chris is down. You can come over here now.
Speaker: And Noel has a dialogue line there's with the ellipsis, like you're saying, with the dots. It's just like, but I can still hear their voice. And it's like, oh, no. Oh, that's dark. Okay.
Speaker: Because, again, the implication here, and this is, there are excellent animations and recreations and things like that out there for people to engage with, but proceed. Proceed, exactly.
Speaker: that it's the player that's doing this, right? This goes back to the agency. um That animation, the one you just referenced, so good, by the way. I watched it also after the clip you sent me.
Speaker: um But yeah, i I love the ideas that they play with that. And it's like the darkest Eldritch horror in this universe ah oftentimes is the player character or the player and what they're capable of because they're the ones deciding how this stuff will go.
Speaker: They're playing around with that a little bit in Delta. And so maybe that's not that maybe that's not the case in this universe, but um we will see. Yeah, ah very excited to experience more dealt through and in any shape or form um banger soundtrack through and through really good yeah remix for uh um it's raining somewhere else oh Okay, yeah, it was a while it was raining outside actually accidentally cut it short because I like entered entered the house and it faded out um And I think that's when sans was partying with Toriel So there's like a mood shift but yeah while you're outside and it's raining There's just a down be almost like lo-fi version of if it's raining somewhere else. I'm gonna have to look up nice
Speaker: Music good Yeah, I was going to link you other stuff, but it's going to have to be off the podcast. Otherwise, it's 40 minutes. No, it's all good. um Yeah, definitely check it out if you haven't at this point.
Speaker: But, I mean, you have or you don't care. in either a case, it's fine. You can also wait until it's all out. You know, it'll be probably another 10 years um and then just play it all at once.
Speaker: ah Take a week. Play it all through and see what see what state you're in emotionally by the end of it. um It's good game though.
Speaker: so Yeah, really recommend people check it out. Or if you already have checked it out, Is anything we said correct? Does any of that hold water? We we we made up everything. we are correct 0% now.
Speaker: Or if you have like a wildly different theory and you think you have some evidence, share that. Yeah. ah It could definitely be stuff that we have not encountered or the community has not encountered. Or just look at the community's batshit memes.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. that There's a lot of good ones. incredibly high effort, like absurdly high effort. Dave linked me like an anime fight from this.
Speaker: Dude, it's... It's insane. anybody's curious, it's ah for something at the end of chapter three, but it's badass. Uh-huh. It's very cool. It's so good. Yeah, but send in that feedback. Let us know what your thoughts are on the Deltarune saga, the prophecy, and where it's all heading.
Speaker: um Socials are in the description. And as always, we'll see in the next one. Have a good night.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: you
