Transcript
Conor Fowler: Welcome to this sort of spooky event that we have here, interviewing our first, well, anyway, we welcome the en enigmatic, the mystifying Reginald Llewellyn Grails of the Grails Fortunes.
Conor Fowler: Moved through the world as if born with a ledger in one hand and a compass in the other, polished, relentless, and quietly magnetic, Reginald carries the weight of a storied dynasty, decades of high stakes deals, whispered rivalries, and a reputation for turning impossible ventures into empires.
Conor Fowler: Yet beneath the bespoke suits and unflinching gaze lies a restless curiosity and an appetite for risks that no balance sheet can predict. Whether negotiating in marble boarded rooms or hunting overlooked opportunities in the city's shadow corners, Reginald is a figure shaped by legacy and propelled by ambition.
Conor Fowler: The kind of man for whom fortune is not merely inherited, but meticulously engineered.
Conor Fowler: Anyway, I've stayed up kind of late writing that. um
matt: Connor, I think that might be some of your best work, if I'm being honest.
Conor Fowler: ah
RLGrails: Just poetry.
Conor Fowler: ah Welcome, welcome, welcome.
matt: Yeah, thanks for thanks for being here, Reginald. ah how's How's your, what is this Thursday going so far?
RLGrails: Well, I mean, i think you could, you, I think we could call me RL or Grails or, or ah ah I do appreciate the, uh,
matt: Okay, RL, RL, yeah.
RLGrails: What's the word I'm looking for? The stand-in name, Reginald.
Conor Fowler: Discretion.
RLGrails: It's funny. There's a guy in Blamo who I talked to. He's Reginald. Actually, I think he's a New York fashion geek. So, yeah.
matt: Oh, that's awesome.
Conor Fowler: yeah
RLGrails: um Everything's great. Thursday, it's nice here.
matt: Nice.
RLGrails: I mean, I want to say it's, you know, I'm not sweating, but I'm not freezing either. yeah.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: yeah got the work out of the way so we could sit down and do this and I'm excited about it.
Conor Fowler: What are you wearing?
matt: Fuck.
Conor Fowler: Because I saw i saw you. I mean, I'm not going to disclose anything. But what are you wearing? I'm just curious because I know that you put a lot of ah thought into things. So I'm curious.
RLGrails: ah I think it's run of the mill. So the the the Navy DB, one of the old ones, ah a pinstripe or a bangle stripe dress shirt with something that men's wear guys typically don't like, but I love is that that's cutaway collar.
Conor Fowler: Sure.
Conor Fowler: hmm.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: you Yeah, it looks great.
RLGrails: as that bad That's how I know I'm not fully fully dressed by the internet. just yeah Once I give those up, I'll know that all my ah all my individuality and own personalities have just been completely erased by the propaganda that we get endlessly from ah all these algorithms.
Conor Fowler: e
RLGrails: So...
Conor Fowler: Right.
RLGrails: ha
matt: I'm also, i am team cutaway collar shirt till the day I die. So.
RLGrails: Yeah. I just...
Conor Fowler: They look good. It's like it's like it's like a turtleneck.
RLGrails: Well, it's just, you know, guys were like years ago, guys were an open collar with vests and deal sleds. And, you know, and and it's hard. These associations are hard to hard to break. But I don't know. I remember seeing them when I was, you know, in like the 2000s and were so expensive. and And I always thought they were great. And I just like them. So people light me up in my in the boards about it.
RLGrails: which they do. yeah just don't see. i think it's I think it's kind of become like a funny way of just being a weird thing I'm into. so
matt: Yeah, totally.
Conor Fowler: Hmm.
RLGrails: And then the the rest, I got the the silk knit tie, the standard navy, and some off-white weave linen pants.
Conor Fowler: Hmm.
RLGrails: And my dead hat. Of course, my dead hat.
Conor Fowler: Which has which has which has which has a what on it?
matt: Oh, that's awesome. Okay.
Conor Fowler: Which has what on it
RLGrails: Well, it has the the steely face and needlepoint. So yeah, I got to have at least one thing that's not Ralph and and and that's that's definitely it.
RLGrails: So yeah.
matt: Nice. Nice. So, so i guess to start, um how did you initially get into clothing? I mean, you just mentioned the, you know, the 2000s era ah and the, I guess the aughts is in there as well.
RLGrails: Okay, so what's interesting about that is is that just like there's been like different eras or so. you know They call it the the eras of me and
Conor Fowler: Mm
RLGrails: I would say my first interest in clothing, um when the first Snoop album came out, Doggy Style, okay I was obsessed with it.
Conor Fowler: hmm.
matt: Okay.
Conor Fowler: Mm hmm.
RLGrails: like I was in the fourth or November of 93. So I would have been in the fourth grade. and i was you know i was getting my parents to buy me levi's that are way too big and just i i love i love that music video yeah i don't know if you remember the what's my name where they all the guys are turning into dobermans
Conor Fowler: Whoa.
Conor Fowler: uh
matt: Oh, shit. I forgot about that.
RLGrails: ah Yes, yes, yes. Okay. And they all had like the the Raiders hats and stuff like that. And that was still, of course, from NWA a little bit earlier. But that was the first time I remember I was at this camp and I wanted to like show up like dressed in baggy jeans and like just...
RLGrails: Just ah throw in a fit. like i was Something about that, that's when I first kind of knew that I had an interest in clothing in general. And i don't know. it From there, it's almost as if a lot of the music I was listening to afterwards would guide the direction I was going.
matt: Yeah, didn't we all go through
RLGrails: i i first like you know When I hit the so sixth, seventh grade, that was the time like immediately. like It was 96, 97. I'm listening to Cobain.
RLGrails: like i was I legit have the pictures of me like standing on the skateboard, airwalks, talking about...
matt: Right, totally.
RLGrails: alien workshop decks and and with the nirvana shirt you know the smiley face one and and the covane like 67 and 94 like and i was definitely into that kind of
matt: Yeah,
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: not as far as the late nineties where you see like the the coal chamber kids, but like, I definitely was, you could tell that I'm listening to like alternative rock just based on my, like you could, you could stereotype me based on, on like my appearance.
matt: for sure. For sure. for sure
RLGrails: Like i was in that, um I was in that, that kind of frame. And then, yeah, no, no, go ahead.
matt: Wait, before we move on, can ah this has come up four or five times in the past week in my in my everyday life.
RLGrails: Yeah.
RLGrails: Okay.
matt: How did the undershaved bowl cut become such a popular look across many genres of, like, kids in the 90s? Like, because I definitely had it.
matt: I don't know if you had it, but, like, you know, I think it was had to be Cobain, but, like, you also saw it on, like,
RLGrails: I mean, it it had...
matt: you know, teen, like teen shows where like the dudes were preps.
RLGrails: You're talking about the Cobain t-shirt where it's Cobain as a kid with the bangs.
matt: Oh, I didn't even think about that.
RLGrails: That one. That's what you're saying. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: And.
RLGrails: you're See, I had the t-shirt where it's like the picture of Cobain that was on Rolling Stone. And it said, you know, 67 to 94. There was another t-shirt and poster where it was Cobain as a child with the short hair and the bang.
matt: That's right.
RLGrails: Now, he had short hair in the, I think, come as you... I'm not sure. He was really into heroin when they, when it, I mean, it was in heroin a lot, but, but, but there's a picture, there's one shirt where it's like him as a kid with that cut, but it had to be the parents too, though.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: Like if every kid has that, then, then all the barbers are, are obviously cutting that way and then they get used to it and then they can churn it out quick so that they can get more seats.
matt: Right, yeah.
Conor Fowler: I think it was easy too, right? I mean, it's an easy haircut to do. It's just kind of like, bam.
matt: Yeah, yeah. my My hair never parts or has never parted in the middle. So I had the side part undershaved bowl cut and going back. Like if I see that photo from like seventh grade yearbook or something, I'm just like, this was a bad idea.
RLGrails: Yeah. Well, I had curly hair. When I had hair, I had curly hair.
matt: yeah So did I.
RLGrails: So I never had the, you know, at that time, for sure, like I wanted to be like, have like the Dave girl long hair, but but it just was not in the cards for these genetics.
matt: So did I.
RLGrails: So.
matt: I feel it.
RLGrails: ah
matt: Okay. Sorry for the derail. I just had to had to ask.
RLGrails: No, no. um And then... After that, I started getting into rap as well. um I remember that DMX, this guy, Chris, who's now, a he's actually now an EDM.
RLGrails: I haven't spoken in many years, but he's now an EDM DJ. He was getting me into rap.
Conor Fowler: Wow. Right.
RLGrails: And at that time in the late 90s, Tommy Hilfiger was giving Ralph a run for his money. like Tommy Hilfiger was big.
Conor Fowler: me
RLGrails: And not just not just like commercially big. like you know that People have like memories of seeing the Backstreet Boys and all Tommy Hilfiger overalls.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: But... ah One thing I actually read was that there was this marketing company, I can't remember the name, but they claim at least to be the reason why, like when the rappers talked about gin in the nineties, it was always Tanqueray.
RLGrails: Apparently Tanqueray paid them and then they got the record labels to make sure that the artists were talking about Tanqueray specifically.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Of course.
RLGrails: So, so, so, so, up This company claimed that they got Snoop, notice how this is all for full circle, to wear an oversized Tommy Rugby on his performance on Saturday Night Live in like 94.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
RLGrails: And that's what kind of exploded Tommy Hilfiger into the zeitgeist, but also would end up bringing them down because they went away, like it was preppy, but then they went urban and
Conor Fowler: yeah
RLGrails: Anyway, so by the eight by the late ninety s I'm like wearing the Tommy. I remember they had the carpenter jeans, you know, with the hammer loop. and Those were big. I had the red, white, and blue, like Tommy pullovers and all that.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: And I was doing it in more of a way that was like preppy. I mean, I was listening to DMX. I was listening to all that. But i I don't know. I just, I loved it. Um, and then in the summer of 99, I went to, I was at overnight camp.
RLGrails: Like, it's just a thing I did when I was, you know, my whole childhood and, and, and.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
RLGrails: at overnight camp, summer 99, this guy I was friends with, like he was into polo. He'd wear like the polo t-shirts, that you know gray t-shirt that says polo across and super baggy chinos and whatnot. But he had these gray polo sweatpants, okay? And they had it, they were like classic the classic gray sweatpants.
RLGrails: Imagine like the Russell Athletics, like with the with the with the expand the, what's it called?
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: this The elastic waist, not just waist, but also on the cuff.
Conor Fowler: E.
RLGrails: They had the they were gray and they had the they have the blue pony on the left side, which is similar to the ones they sell today. But the difference was was that they had this diamond like gusted across.
RLGrails: And i got the and i like that was my intro to Ralph as like, okay, this is dope. This is just...
RLGrails: ah For some reason, that's where...
Conor Fowler: That's so funny, dude.
RLGrails: Yeah, it starts in sweatpants.
Conor Fowler: that Because that's like...
RLGrails: i know You're thinking of like just guys in suits and it starts with gray sweatpants.
Conor Fowler: That's so funny.
Conor Fowler: Or whatever. I mean, I would think ah ah Oxford's, Chino's, something. I don't know. But sweatpants is very funny. So what about the crotch, then?
RLGrails: I don't, I don't, you know, I'll share the, I actually have that pair. I can't like wear them.
Conor Fowler: ah my God.
RLGrails: They're they're trashed. Like they are, they're like, ah but, but I found the same ones not trashed, like on eBay and whatnot.
Conor Fowler: God.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: And so I wear them and there's times you'll see on my account where it's like, I'm doing like a sweatpants fit. Those are them and they are different. They're not, they they changed around like 2003 or 2004, they changed the sweatpants.
RLGrails: to what they sell now, which is like, it's not, ah the waist is not elastic.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: It's all, there's a white string. They're just, they don't fit the, the, at the bottom at the cuffs. Like it's also, so I don't like that.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: These ones are like, they're like, imagine the cliched ideal sweat pant, but just with a blue pony horse.
matt: So.
RLGrails: Like, like, like, like, like they're like the sweat pants that you're wearing, like,
Conor Fowler: Well, so it's like,
RLGrails: they're They're like the 90s, maybe 80s teen movie gym class sweatpants just with the little pony horse on there.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: And they're just, I'm telling you, like, I i still find, like, when I see them online, I'm sharing them, you got to get this. And people probably think they're like, dude, like, I'm here for Camelay or Polo Coats.
Conor Fowler: Dude, you're so funny.
RLGrails: Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Because you because you have such an encyclopedic knowledge of all of this stuff like and the changes between the years and like, but to to like have that one be your entree like, that's so funny.
RLGrails: But...
RLGrails: That's the one, that's the, that is the, that's the, that's the intro. Right. And I mean, yes, I still rock them.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: They're useful though, at least.
RLGrails: I rock them.
matt: I mean, I'll also go to bat like polo, you know, champion obviously is the, is it's a super hyped brand that was once the Kmart brand that everybody, you know, didn't want to wear cause it would show you were poor, but like polo, like sweats, knits, uh, kind of unrivaled.
RLGrails: Jim, I rock them everywhere.
RLGrails: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Hmm.
matt: Like the pole, like I've got, I've got a few, not not as many as I once had, but like, you know, late nine or mid to late nineties and early two thousands, like polo t-shirts and stuff. And they're so comfortable.
matt: The fabric is incredible and the fit is fantastic.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: It's just like what you want out of a t-shirt.
RLGrails: Yes.
RLGrails: I couldn't agree more. i just...
matt: Yeah. They get slept on. They get slept on it unless it's like one of the hyped pieces.
RLGrails: they Well, it's like, I don't know. I feel like you're looking for... Sweatpants is something you could go into any store and they're going to have them and they're also going to have them cheap.
RLGrails: Right. So if you're putting effort into finding something, you kind of want it to be special.
Conor Fowler: Right.
RLGrails: But the truth is, is that it's if once you have good ordinary things, That's what you end up actually getting the most enjoyment out of because because it's not just for like, oh, let me get this fit off or, oh, like I'm watching the bears in these, right?
matt: Totally. Right.
RLGrails: I'm, you know, i'm I'm working out and just popping these on to leave the, you know, i and if I go to the gym, normally it's like how I'm dressed. how you guys know me to normally dress from online, but like I'm not sweating and then putting back into that before I go home. Like I'll just put sweat pants on and leave and leave. But that's the stuff that like, it's the things that you take for granted that you end up like and getting the most enjoyment out of and actually living with.
matt: Totally. Totally.
RLGrails: Everything else is kind of, okay, I like it now. Maybe I won't like it later. Maybe I won't get into it or maybe I'll forget about it and then come back to it in 10 years.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: But something like gray sweatpants. I mean, it's like your fingers.
matt: Yeah, for sure.
RLGrails: okay
Conor Fowler: Yeah, it's classic.
RLGrails: It is what it is. Yeah, it's good. so i'll So I'll send you guys a pic of the exact, like A, my trashed ones, but B, like the ones so you can trick see if you can find a pair for yourself or I'll or i'll look for you.
matt: Absolutely.
RLGrails: um And then
Conor Fowler: do you have like a so Do you have like a storage unit?
RLGrails: I don't have a storage unit.
Conor Fowler: If that's too invasive, i mean
RLGrails: so No, no, no, that's not invasive. I don't have a storage unit. I know that this is a thing people ask someone. Actually, a friend of mine was in Double ah RL somewhere in California and somehow that he told me the employees were like, dude, if you want to find this, like there's this guy, RL Grails, do you find me?
RLGrails: And I was like, he calls me up and tells me this and I'm like, oh no. ah
Conor Fowler: funny.
RLGrails: You said they were wondering if I have like this warehouse and I actually don't like if you I'm not going to pretend that I don't have a lot of stuff. I have a lot of stuff.
RLGrails: Right. i And I am not a minimalist and I. not trying to have a capsule not trying to have a capsule wardrobe. i'm not you know i i don't I definitely,
Conor Fowler: that's thats sucking money
RLGrails: but but if you actually look at, like if you were to so go out of an individual picture and look at, let's say like, 10 of the last pictures, you're going to see repeats yeah of things, repeats of jacks, ties, whatever. And I also am, once I'm done with something, like i move i I pass it along, whether it be like I'm not into it anymore, whether I lose weight, whether unfortunately I gain weight, like I...
RLGrails: other than a very few things like a pair of tattered gray totally destroyed sweatpants from 99 do i keep things forever right like i just you know i get of course there's going to be some things that i've had a long time but i'm okay about moving things uh not that that doing the instagram is helped by any means i mean if anything the instagram
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Total.
RLGrails: The handle has grown what I have because, What I didn't anticipate was it created this these opportunities where you know people are asking, how do you find this stuff?
RLGrails: how do you Well, it's like, yeah, I do the same thing everyone else does, Ebays and Depops and what, but I'm also getting proposed trades by people or people showing me things or people sending me things or people asking me to meet them or when I go around for my work, my actual real work life, which takes me to a bunch of places, I'm always going to check out like the vintage.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: I'm always going to check out the Ralph. Some people, if they know me from the handle, like, ah ah you know, I'm a very, to be honest, even though I like my privacy through the handle, like in person,
RLGrails: I like meeting people and in person. Like I don't just dress like this for the internet. Like this is is actually how i like I get up and go in the morning. so So yeah, it's created these opportunities or situations where the stuff is just, I'm around it all the time and I'm being sent it and I'm in it.
matt: Yeah,
RLGrails: And you know the the good part about that is is that I keep learning things and then i hope I can share them with the other people who who come and who are who are interested. that's like that's the most I know it's super nerdy or weird to some people, but I don't know, i just I derive so much joy just from being in it that way.
RLGrails: But the downside the downside is is that you know you got to know when to stop.
matt: you totally.
RLGrails: And i mean, i have like how many blue blazers can I have, right?
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: Like how many polo coats are there? Like how many? And you you tell yourself, oh, like the old stuff so good and eventually and Ralph and you But the truth is is that it just keeps coming. like it's it's it's It's endless.
RLGrails: It might go up in price, but it is there's so much stuff.
matt: I don't.
Conor Fowler: Well.
RLGrails: like there's just so I was thinking the other day, i'm like, could you even ponder the amount of times this guy's name has been stitched into a garment in total since 1968?
matt: Right.
matt: Hundreds of millions.
RLGrails: Hi, like think about how many times his name is in it, in a single outlet store in a single Macy's and then times that by the last 50, almost 60 years.
matt: Easily.
matt: Right. Right.
RLGrails: Like it's crazy.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Even just polos, right?
RLGrails: There will be 60 years.
Conor Fowler: Just just the polo shirts, like...
RLGrails: Well, think about it. Like a suit says by Ralph Lauren in the neck tag by Ralph Lauren in the in the in the chest badge probably says polo by Ralph Lauren Corporation, like on whatever, you know, you know, the tags you cut away from like every single thing.
RLGrails: How many times has this guy's name been actually written or stitched on a garment?
matt: Jesus. Yeah.
RLGrails: in total 460 years straight it is crazy but i guess that's just how my uh my mind works sometimes i get into these these detailed tangents and
matt: Right.
matt: Yeah.
matt: Well, going back to and I think that kind of relates to what you said about, you know, about talking you know talking about the brand and like, it might be kind of weird. I think that like Polo and Ralph Lauren on the whole is one of the only brands I can think of that has that type of following.
matt: Like people that are into it are fucking into it and they want to talk about it with other people that are into it. And like, you know, show, yeah.
Conor Fowler: Apple.
matt: Well, yeah. I mean more clothing brands, but like, yeah you know, like,
Conor Fowler: Oh, yeah, sure.
matt: The I went to when I lived in New York years ago, I went to one of the Goose on the Deuce meetups.
RLGrails: Yeah. Yeah.
RLGrails: yeah
matt: And, you know, it was such a joyful event. And it was all these like old heads and like lowlifes and their kids even. And they were all decked out and like the rarest of rare shit.
matt: And just like having a good time. Like me and my buddy Elliot went and we're both big Ralph people. And like we were like, admittedly one of the few white people there, but like, dude, it was such a good time just chilling with those guys and like chatting about Ralph Lauren.
RLGrails: yeah
matt: And like, you know, that they would pose for pictures of of like tourists passing by being like, what the hell is this? You know, like just such a, such a cool thing that like, Ralph Lauren basically built this world from nothing.
RLGrails: but What, but what, but even as an extension of that, like you're talking about these guys, you're the only white guy there.
matt: And.
RLGrails: And you know, it's into the graphic stuff, super collectible snow beach, right?
matt: Yo, yeah.
RLGrails: There's that. And it extends all the way, like. One of my best buddies in this, he's 57 years old. You know, he's he he's a button down blue blazer, right?
RLGrails: he's He can talk about it for hours. Like I could take a gummy and go on a walk and like talk to this guy like two hours about just the most trivial details.
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
RLGrails: and And he's just, as he might be into it from a different way,
matt: Right.
RLGrails: but But the fact that like a 57-year-old like Gen X, like almost boom, whatever, and these guys like are into this one thing to the same extent, wild.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: And I think that's what gives... the brit Like you said, like our people into it. It's because of the size, the largesse of it, right? Like there are Rick heads, like Rick Owens heads.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: There are Tom Brown, like head to toe. It's a full look. You're committed to it. Some of these brands, like especially Rick, like the stuff doesn't go with other things.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: Like we you and I know we could pop Polo on or to a pair.
matt: Yeah, totally.
RLGrails: rock levi Ralph himself, I mean, half the people think that they went ahead and and did double RL because he kept walking down the runways in old Okay.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: Yeah, like legit, like, but Double RL came out in 95, like half, like he's in these 501s on his own show.
matt: Yeah. I mean,
RLGrails: but But what I think, but that's what I'm saying, like the difference between Rick and a Tom Brown fan versus a Ralph fan is that you have 60 years rather than 20 15 or whatever.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: And you have Prappi and Americana and then you have the block letter set, you have, Purple label. You have all these different things where you can just, it' it' it's it's, I hate using this term because it makes me think of politics, but it it it's the wide net.
RLGrails: You're casting the net.
matt: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Conor Fowler: yeah
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: Totally. One of the, uh, one of the earliest polo stores, like outside of New York was in Atlanta. um And I worked for a company, ah but like an old school menswear company here for a while.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: And they were one of the first stores.
Conor Fowler: you.
matt: They'd been open since 63.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: They're still open. But they were one of the first, like, Ralph Lauren accounts to pick up ties before he started even making clothing.
RLGrails: Okay. So the store was not a Ralph Lauren store open since 63.
matt: No, but but then but then, yeah.
RLGrails: And one of the first, yeah, yeah.
matt: But then the early one of the early public stores opened literally across the hall in the mall that they were in.
RLGrails: Was it that i there's a huge chance that the guy that the store you're talking about would have been the owner of the polo store across from it because originally most of the polo stores outside of New York, including Beverly Hills, which was the first one outside were actually franchises.
matt: Oh shit. I had no idea. I mean, that, that very well could have been, but ah yeah, the, the owner who was the son of the founder um gave me this.
RLGrails: Yes. Yes.
matt: It was one of the early Ralph collections in the, like, i don't know. It was probably based on the styling, probably like 71 or two, but it was a, ah like a denim denim suit with a corduroy, like almost Chesterfield, like line, you know, backline collar.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: Um, and I'd never wore it. It was, it was not, it was a 38 long and I'm not a 38 long.
RLGrails: Yeah, I did.
matt: um
RLGrails: oh Old Ralph, like 70s Ralph is not made for the 2026 human.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
matt: No, definitely not.
RLGrails: Like, it's just not.
matt: But I, I sold it to a friend of mine years, like a few years ago and he wore it to a wedding in Montana. It was like cowboy theme. And I was like, okay, that's a perfect home for it.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: But like, I do kind of miss having that piece just to look at it
RLGrails: Just to look at it.
matt: yeah it Yeah, it was so sick.
RLGrails: Frame it.
matt: and like the you know the The styling of it was just so radical for the time period. like Even in the disco era or whatever, like it was just such a such a fucking sick thing.
matt: And it did combine those like various elements of what he was into. Because it was fucking it was a denim suit. you know had like shooting pockets.
RLGrails: Yes, I know.
matt: yeah I've i've never um've never seen another one and
RLGrails: Denim suit. it's it's No.
matt: yeah No, and i'm I've looked, Yeah.
RLGrails: i go ah Thoroughbred, like who used to go by Vintage PRL, his name's Laird. he i think I've seen him in like a denim blazer like a foot you know with ah with with notch lapels and everything.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: like i' I'm sure I've seen him for sure. in one but yeah you you you let that piece go i mean listen if you couldn't wear it i guess you shouldn't feel that bad like unless you're gonna frame it but but some things are good to just know that you know they're in your you're in your possession
matt: Right, right, yeah.
matt: Yeah, I'm not one of those people that collects things that, like, I just keep on ice. Like, I wear anything that I own for the most part, and that's why i also destroy everything that I own eventually, but, you know, it's okay.
RLGrails: yeah
RLGrails: Yeah. Well, and and but but that means you use it.
Conor Fowler: Right,
RLGrails: You want to be a
matt: Yeah, it's like the great everything I own ends up being, like, your gray sweatpants, but that's great.
RLGrails: you want have
Conor Fowler: right.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: right
RLGrails: i'd I'd take that any day over being one of these Alden Indie boot guys who's babies the boots.
matt: Oh God. Yeah.
RLGrails: like like who It's they're boots, dude.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: You've got 20 pairs of boots that'll last a lifetime that you've worn six times over the past 10 years.
RLGrails: and you're And you're like shining. you know, it's like, remember the guys with the Air Force ones who would toothpaste, like to get a toothbrush and put it.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: yeah. Exactly.
RLGrails: But the especially with work boots, that they are work.
matt: Exactly.
RLGrails: W-O-R-K boots. Worn by Indiana Jones to traverse terrains in which they will get dirty and scuffed.
Conor Fowler: Right.
matt: And the reason they were warned by Indiana Jones, but because he was a fucking cobbler.
RLGrails: Please do put it in. Yeah, like it's like...
matt: No, sorry, he wasn't a cobbler. He was a woodworker. Daniel Day-Lewis was the cobbler.
RLGrails: Yeah, they were not so that you could like line up your shell for IG. like but like they like Wear them.
matt: Right, yeah.
RLGrails: Take care of them, obviously. but wear them, please, please, please wear them. you know And same with all this Ralph stuff. like like you know You got to wear it. It looks better worn.
matt: It does.
RLGrails: it it looks It looks, it gets better.
matt: It does.
RLGrails: It is. The only thing I'll say, and maybe this is a hot takes, Or maybe not, but corduroy is the one thing where I think it looks best new and then it's grungy.
RLGrails: Whereas denim looks better broken in, even suits and wool as it molds here. but But for some reason to me, and maybe this is just my view, I like how corduroy looks brand new.
matt: Okay.
RLGrails: that no that's it i don't know.
matt: I can see that.
RLGrails: and like It turns into, I don't know.
Conor Fowler: I think it gets, I think it gets like e faded kind of.
matt: I think,
matt: well, I think it has to do with, I don't, I don't mind the fading.
RLGrails: aided and Well, they get dented, right?
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: i think it, cause I'm, I'm a huge moleskin fan, which is essentially corduroy without the whales. And I think the whales are the part of, of the garment that like just looks ratty.
matt: The more that like you wear bunch of.
RLGrails: They get dented.
matt: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Well, cause they're dry clean.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: and then
matt: And like,
Conor Fowler: They're dry clean only a lot of the time and people don't want to dry clean corduroy.
matt: Well, they're cotton. You don't have to dry clean corduroy.
Conor Fowler: You have to if you want the whales not to get fucked up.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: yeah But I mean, they're still going to get fucked up in day-to-day life. Just like, oh shit, I ran into, you know...
Conor Fowler: But running them in a machine that spins around like fucks up the whales. I i looked into this because I have those olive corduroys that I like. ah And they were like, if you want them to stay looking like this, you have to get them dry cleaned or else they'll like fade.
matt: Yeah. Yeah.
RLGrails: I mean, dude, like if I go and get one of those one of those game suits from Drake's that's $1,700, $1,800, and you're um you're telling me the way is to to keep it up is to dry i'm and dry clean it.
Conor Fowler: Right.
RLGrails: i don't know how I don't know if I'm going to be dry cleaning like $89.99 polo.
matt: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Conor Fowler: Right.
RLGrails: polo outlet pants, but I'm definitely going to be, based on what you're saying, if like yeah if it's something serious, I'm going to dry clean it.
Conor Fowler: Right. right
RLGrails: If you're saying I could avoid a messing up the wide wheel.
Conor Fowler: I think, I think, I think this is right. I think that's why they say dry clean only on them.
RLGrails: Wow.
Conor Fowler: The more you know.
RLGrails: Wow. Yeah. I don't know. But no, those old stores, i love seeing this stuff in those old stores. The um The one I see here all the time is Brittany.
RLGrails: Brittany is spelt with two T's. if you ever see It's called Brittany Limited. and they were so Before there was ah the main store in Chicago and Michigan Avenue, the first Polo store the the the first polo account here was this David Price- chain and menswear stores called Brittany and then when polo first had a store in Chicago is that I only know this because.
RLGrails: David Price- don't ask me how I know this, but it was at 900 North Michigan avenue or interestingly, they just reopened brooks brothers this week, so I gotta go see that.
Conor Fowler: Yes, yes.
matt: oh wow
RLGrails: But yeah, they finally put a Brooks Brothers back, a retail Brooks Brothers back in Chicago, and they hadn't had one since the bankruptcy.
matt: yeah
RLGrails: um but But that first polo store was a franchise operated by Britney. and you'll very often see like not only will you see polo like britney limited badges from that time but sometimes at like a rummage sale or whatever i'll pick up a tie and it will just say britney and it's like this came out of the same factory as a ralph tie like this like this is it's the same shape it's the same cut it doesn't have the polo but like
matt: Oh, totally. Right.
RLGrails: I can, I can, from that time, these are like, they were sharing supplier, whatever it it was. And then the first one again was Beverly Hills.
RLGrails: It's actually, you can see if you ever see the movie American gigolo, like the one that put Armani on with Robert, there's a scene in it where Richard Gere gets out of a car and he walks across the street and you can see the first polo store, like polo franchise, outside polo store outside of New York, you see it.
RLGrails: And that was this guy, I Magnin, Magnin, something Magnin, who was like a big clothier in in the California region. And he was French.
RLGrails: Now, eventually all this would go away and now all the stores are are corporate run. But back in those days, like I would not be surprised if the guy who gave you the tie actually operated the polo store across from himself.
matt: Right.
matt: He very well could have.
RLGrails: Yeah, for sure.
matt: Yeah. i I wish I knew that history and like he passed away a few years ago. So ah yeah, but he, yeah, he was, he was a fucking giant in the, in the like Southern trad world.
RLGrails: Yeah.
RLGrails: Man, it's just crazy to think like you'd be you'd you'd walk around and like you wouldn't be the outlier and stuff like this.
RLGrails: you know it Like today, even if you're getting a compliment, which obviously a compliment's a nice thing, it's still indicative of the fact that you are standing out and it's and and it's abnormal, right?
matt: Yeah, totally. Yeah, but in the world of like plastic polo shirts and ah fleece vests that now, you know, rule corporate America, like, I think i'd I'll take the standing out over that.
RLGrails: and
RLGrails: Oh, I mean, listen, you see me, you see me. I mean, basically you get a firsthand experience of how I dress like, what, every other day.
matt: Nice. Fuck yeah.
RLGrails: ah ah you know And it's not like the days I don't post, I don't dress like that.
matt: Fuck yeah.
Conor Fowler: Peace.
RLGrails: I just, I just might not be in something, you know, I might be in a different brand or, or I just don't, or I already, or I'm re-wearing the fit that I posted like four times already.
matt: Right.
matt: Right. Right.
RLGrails: So, so, so anyways, I've, I don't know. I mean, I'm always going to be insecure at least a little, at least surface level that, uh,
RLGrails: Is this just too crazy? Like, is it, am I just being, is it, is it a level of interest or hobbyism that's like pedantic, but I just, did I don't know.
RLGrails: i just, I just enjoy it. I just do.
matt: Hey, everybody's got to have a hobby, you know?
RLGrails: i just genuinely like, it's not exact.
Conor Fowler: Well, and that's a thing. It is a fucking hobby.
RLGrails: I just, I
Conor Fowler: People don't acknowledge it in such a way.
RLGrails: mean, i Listen, I love football. I love cooking. i love music equally, if not more than this.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: But I just get, you know, people are always like, hey, man sorry for asking you so many questions. Like, can you tell me this? I love telling you this.
matt: Yeah, fuck yeah!
RLGrails: Like, ah i love like absolutely, I loved it. Now, if the question is is ends up being, so how much do you think it's worth so i can resell it?
matt: Right.
RLGrails: That's why I'm like, okay, no, no, no. want to talk to the person who's buying for themselves because they want it for themselves. and i'm you know And they're into it.
matt: For sure.
RLGrails: I'm more interested in that than I am like, that this market that the brand has fallen into hundred in the last while.
matt: Yeah. Yeah. Same with me on military stuff. Like I give people like a couple of chances. And then when they're like, Hey, what do you think the value on this is? I'm like, yeah, dude, not going to answer any more of your fucking questions.
RLGrails: Yeah, I mean, i I don't want to be a hypocrite either, because obviously one of the reasons I can do this account is that I'll get something so that I can see, it's like, oh, I got this 70s shirt or this 90s jacket. And then I compare it to my stuff, right? And then I'll turn around and sell it or unload it for basically what I pay. If I fix it up, whatever the cost is, plus what, ah you know, and that knowing what's nice is there's all these people and they're trusting somehow of me the and I'm getting stuff. So I'm passing it along.
matt: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
RLGrails: Right. but Right. Um, you know, so I just want to, I don't want to be a hypocrite and be like, ah, don't resell.
matt: No, definitely not. Definitely not.
RLGrails: Right.
matt: I mean, i sell quote i sell shit that I you know hunt down for a living. So I'm also like, ah you know I'm not trying to be a hypocrite.
RLGrails: A hundred percent.
matt: I'm just like, there's got to be a passion when you're talking about something or else I'm not really interested in in helping you.
RLGrails: There has to be. Yes.
matt: And I don't like, not saying that every everything I buy to sell is a passionate thing, but if I buy it and I think it's cool enough that someone's going to want it, like that's that's enough for me.
matt: But like you know the things that... the things that really resonate with me, like Ralph or like vintage military, you know, I, like, I will talk endlessly about this stuff with someone that actually cares and like wants to learn.
RLGrails: knows about it. Yeah. Like the five different OG 107 jungle jackets and all that stuff.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: I mean,
matt: Yeah. Like tiger stripe and, you know, stuff that you just don't really see out in the wild very much, you know, not everyone has like,
RLGrails: yeah
matt: an encyclopedic knowledge of this stuff that I, like I have built or you have built over the years. Like, and I think, you know, I also, I've i've had people that helped me build that knowledge. So it's like, I, you know, I, I, I want to pass it on, but i have to have a certain sense of like, Oh, you actually care. You're actually trying to learn, not just, not just hype up whatever that you, you found.
RLGrails: No, of course not. But that's also because we're not doing this as a career, right?
matt: Right.
RLGrails: like We're not, if if it's not your, you know, again, like I'll sell some stuff, but for the most, it's not my career or my income. It's it's it's my hobby.
RLGrails: And and the the way in which I've come into the knowledge is by getting my hands on the stuff, right? Right. And unfortunately, not everything is going to come in your size or easily, like especially, you know, like I said, a couple minutes ago with the early the late 60s, early 70s stuff like it's all size 36 38.
RLGrails: Like I'm long, long sometimes.
matt: Right, right. Yeah. You might find the 41 long because apparently odd sizes were such a thing in the 70s through the 90s.
RLGrails: Oh, yeah. Dude, I have a 47 long jacket. I've 45. I see 43 are common.
Conor Fowler: in the finishings.
matt: It's so...
RLGrails: Like, were common. But 47 is ridiculous. Yeah.
matt: yeah, yeah. And, like, well...
RLGrails: forty one and forty three are common but we like we're common but forty seven is is is ridiculous right
matt: the
matt: Yeah, yeah. It's so funny, like, having worked in, like, high-end retail for as long as I have, like,
RLGrails: thanks
matt: just imagining stores today st stocking that much stuff is mind boggling. But like that was the heyday, essentially. Like everyone, you know, everyone was still wearing a suit and you you know you were slinging like Hickey Freeman and polo suits hand over fist.
RLGrails: then don't have don't know scale
RLGrails: They just don't have scale. It's a product of there's the scale is gone because people don't have to.
matt: Yeah. Right.
RLGrails: Don't get me wrong. I agree with the Derek Guy sentiment that You want to get the dress codes were bit classist.
RLGrails: They could be racist. They could be sexist.
matt: For sure.
RLGrails: And you're better off having people the freedom of what they want and they shouldn't be judged by by like how how they're dressed and whatnot.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: I agree with that. However, when everyone has to wear a suit five days a week, all of a sudden, everybody must own 10 suits in order for them to stay. Well, if every person owns 10 suits, how many suit companies are there? How many, like how much more options can you have? How much more scale do you have? How many more employees at Alden can they hire to make the leisure hand-sewn stitch instead of only three that they have right now because there's an entire market and cottage industry to fulfill all this not even demand but need.
RLGrails: You needed to.
matt: Oh, 100%. Rhett.
RLGrails: As soon as that goes away, well, you did there's not this the demand drops because the need is gone and the scale goes away so all of a sudden the caught it's it's double-edged sword the people like us who are into it well we're seeing higher prices and higher and higher prices while at the same time the brands aren't incentivized to continue raising the prices forever so they start cutting corners that's the difference
matt: Right. I mean, brooks Brooks is a great example of this.
RLGrails: First example
matt: Yeah. The, like, you know, I, had I worked closely with a lot of their factories that they owned and I was really bummed out when Southwick closed and Carlin closed and their Thai factory, which I only worked with a little bit in Long Island city, but like, you know, I, I, I went to Southwick so many times.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: I knew the people that worked there. Like I talked to people on the line and it's like in, in a, flash all of the shit's done and all of these people in Haverhill Massachusetts are out of work and it's ah yeah we could we can have an entire and maybe we should have an entire episode about that
RLGrails: Oh, dude, the the the the ah Brooks brothers ties now are made in Italy.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: are they yeah
RLGrails: Something about that just, you know, the re remember when Ralph rightly got slammed for like three or four Olympics ago and they weren't making the U S stuff like U S team stuff in the U S now it's all made in the U S and all the, and all the flag sweaters are now made in the U S.
matt: Yeah, it's...
matt: Oh, are they really? I didn't know that.
RLGrails: Yes, they are now. all not the The outlet ones are not.
matt: Yeah, yeah. i
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: And I'm okay with that because, do you know what i mean?
matt: Yeah, totally.
RLGrails: Like you have to have an option. You can't have, like not everyone is buying a $400 sweater. So I understand why the outlet ones are not. But all the flagship ones are all made in the US and all the Olympic stuff is made in the US.
matt: That's sick. Yeah, RTC makes the tailored stuff, I know.
RLGrails: And they got slammed, right? And they should have. A Brooks Brothers tie, that that like you know that that that classic maroon gold, and that's got to be made.
RLGrails: you can't irus I know it's not the Brooks Brothers that we talk about or nerd out about or fanboy about, but like come on.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: No, no.
RLGrails: like like There's got to be... like Call Chip. Get Chip to make the tie for
matt: Yeah, seriously. i mean, making a tie in the US is not expensive and it's not hard.
RLGrails: Please.
matt: it's It's one of the easiest things to make stateside for a decent price.
RLGrails: Yes. Like you can do that. You can, you can, I, even easier than the shirts, the shirts, from my understanding, Del Vecchio, when he, you know, i don't want to get into him, but, de but Del Vecchio claimed that they just did the U.S.
matt: one
matt: Yeah, yeah. Once Luxottica buys you, you're fucked.
RLGrails: shirts at Garland as a, as a, you know, he said they, it was a break even. They, they would just break even.
matt: Yeah, I'm sure.
RLGrails: Okay.
matt: I will say...
RLGrails: Come on. eyes you said If you're selling asking $150 for a tie, you should be able to make that somewhere in the U.S.
matt: Easily. Go to the...
RLGrails: and sell it for a profit.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: Go to the Garment District in New York and you can make that. Like,
RLGrails: Yes.
matt: for $25 wholesale and then you retail it at $150. And that's that's a ridiculous-ass markup.
RLGrails: Yes.
RLGrails: So, yeah. So, if if if anyone over at Authentic Brands Group or Jamie Salter ever hears this, make make Make the goddamn tie and in the U.S., please.
matt: Yeah, yeah.
RLGrails: It's a Brooks Brothers tie.
matt: and i
RLGrails: Please make it in the U.S.
matt: I'll go on record as saying that Garland was the best shirt factory. Not the easiest to work with, but they made the best shirt in the States, hands down.
RLGrails: I wish I could have i wish it could have visited and seen it.
matt: Yeah, i didn't I never got to see it, ah unfortunately.
RLGrails: i love that.
matt: I did see Southwick a lot. so
RLGrails: I saw, I've seen, uh, Allen Edmonds in Port Washington, Wisconsin.
matt: v Nice.
RLGrails: I got invited horror. I haven't gone Horween it's in Chicago, but they told me I could be time.
matt: All right.
RLGrails: Cause I once tried to see if I could get, if I can make like belts, a one, in you know, like the one inch straps that go into engine turn plaque belts.
RLGrails: Like they're usually alligator lizard.
matt: yes
RLGrails: I tried calling them to see if there's any way I could configure it so I could get a one inch shell strap to go with one of those belts. and they're like, well, probably not because it's so thick and those buckles, whatever, but why don't you come the factory and we'll show you around.
RLGrails: I haven't done it, but I would love do that.
matt: Hell yeah. That's awesome.
RLGrails: So we'll see. But I don't know. That's, that's you know, it's it's it's sad because the old stuff is great. And and mind you,
RLGrails: They make a lot of good stuff today too. they they They just do. and But that stuff does not make money, right? It doesn't. What makes money is polo bears, silk screened on t-shirts, cologne, eyewear.
RLGrails: You know, obviously through Luxottica, underwear, polo, even the polo shirts, like like the the PK ones and the black. That's what makes, and the outlet stuff, that's what makes money.
matt: Oh, God.
RLGrails: The stuff,
matt: I can't even imagine how many units that each individual store, whether outlet or normal, sells of the basic-ass polo pique shirts.
RLGrails: i I couldn't even, who knows? and who know who who who Probably at least three of those get sold for every single of all other polos.
RLGrails: i like a
matt: easily.
RLGrails: mean, maybe Lacoste has a good showing. i I don't know. I mean, but I see those. But the point is, is that that stuff must, in today's environment, where guys are not required to dress up, in order to have the things that we are interested in, they must sell things that make a profit.
RLGrails: They must.
matt: Right. Right.
RLGrails: and with and if And if they don't, there will be no flagship. There will be no camel hair. There will not even be double ah RL jeans, there will not be DB dough skins made in the U S and Italy.
RLGrails: Like all of that will go away if they don't sell the things that unfortunately sometimes people in our world get a little snobby about.
matt: Right.
matt: Yeah. I mean, I've heard that Double RL has never actually turned a profit.
RLGrails: There's no way there's no fucking way.
matt: the And, you know, like the the vintage stuff in in particular, they buy it from someone like me for a retail price. They put it in a store for three or four times what they paid for it. And if it sells, it sells. If it doesn't, it doesn't. They don't give a shit.
matt: they just It looks cool. It attracts attention. And it leads to, you know, someone maybe possibly buying it.
RLGrails: I went to the store, actually the most recent one, I was in Nashville and I went to the one there. so
matt: Oh, nice. I was there the the weekend that they opened because I was selling at the Nashville Flea.
RLGrails: Yeah.
RLGrails: yeah Dan Baraka told me where it was and I had dinner or a meal next to him and i went I was in this other hat shop right there. But I went and I bought a pair of jeans from there. I actually, I did not say anything about my stuff.
RLGrails: And no one, and there, it's funny, there, no one called me out. As soon as I went to Buck Mason, however, I'd get, like, the guy's like, yo, are you R.L.
RLGrails: Grails?
RLGrails: was like, how can you even tell?
Conor Fowler: Thank you.
RLGrails: Like, I had a Bodie shirt on. Like, legit, I had a Bodie shirt on. I had, probably everything else was wrapped, but like, i was like, dude, I'm like,
matt: right
RLGrails: Anyways, but um but but I remember I went to the main double RL store in Soho, and I don't know if you've ever been, but you walk in there and you're like, this is what it's like to have an endless budget with no expectation to make money ever.
RLGrails: And it's so sick.
matt: hundred percent
RLGrails: But I asked the person, I'm like, what's like the what's the top day? like What's the best kind of day? like What are we talking? like What's like you're you you leave and you're like, damn.
RLGrails: And he said, we did have Springsteen's tour costumer come in with like a clipboard with all the people and everyone's sizes and bubble blah, blah, blah.
matt: Oh, wow.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: You know what i mean? And that obviously makes sense. But the problem is, is like, okay, that's amazing and probably paid their rent for one month.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: oh But there's no way that they make money. There's no way.
matt: Oh, no, no. I was friends with a couple of the original people at the Double Rail Nashville shop and the the grand opening weekend.
RLGrails: Yeah. Yeah.
matt: Cheryl Crow came in and they had a, like, it's been a while, but I think it was like a teens or twenties Navajo hand beaded robe.
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: It was like their, their core, you know, the like inspirational vintage piece that they had on display.
RLGrails: yeah
matt: It was 10 grand. Guess who bought that?
Conor Fowler: Wow.
matt: Oh, you know,
RLGrails: Sheryl Crow.
matt: Sheryl Crow bought that and like, you know, dropping 10 grand on this, which I don't know what that's actually worth. Maybe that's a good deal, but like, you know, it was nothing for that, but like.
RLGrails: You know what I'm surprised then? I'm actually surprised that, den ah like clearly you have this double RL and they when they did that Denim and supply.
matt: Oh God. The worst.
RLGrails: that but but but that you're right.
Conor Fowler: yeah
RLGrails: but They could have done it different. Like, okay, you have double RL, which is Sheryl Crow buying a $10,000, like cardigan and Springsteen's tour managers coming in.
RLGrails: Okay. Normal people that is not necessary. I mean, even the jeans, dude, like the jeans I bought, they're four or $500 jeans for the made in USA.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: Like that's a big knot. yeah I mean, that's higher than Japanese, most of the great Japanese denim companies.
matt: Totally.
RLGrails: But so you could there there could have been a way where they did denim and supply a polo price point, but you didn't put it in like Macy's and Dillard's. You put it in the flagship stores, like alongside the polo. shirt Like they could have done it different.
matt: Totally. Totally.
RLGrails: And especially now, like remember Denim & Supply was over 10 years ago, especially now with like work wear and car heart and guys wearing double knees and and and all this stuff, like,
matt: Right.
RLGrails: and and let And also the Western, like ever since Yellowstone, all this Western stuff that we're seeing in our space, in my view, it starts with with Yellowstone.
RLGrails: It might not be as overt as like Mad Men was to hashtag menswear, but i still I still attribute in mainstream culture, all these girls going to Wallen concerts and all the shows, Landman and All of this starts with with with Yellowstone.
matt: For sure.
RLGrails: So right now, had they had this Denim and supply at an approachable price point, but not down market, I feel like they could have, that could have hit.
matt: Yeah. it It would have worked. I mean, honestly, that, like, and I feel this way about Double RL, too. It's so, like, Denim and Supply, as much as it sucked the way that was done, it was so ahead of its time.
matt: It was ahead of the curve. And Double RL in 1995 was so ahead of the curve because, like, you didn't start seeing the self-edges of the world.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
matt: You know, not, I love self-edge.
RLGrails: Yeah, i so do I.
matt: Like, Kia's awesome.
RLGrails: Yeah, for
matt: but ah But, you know, like, that just wasn't a thing in 1995 and even into the very early 2000s. Like, that just, like, workwear, salvage jeans, et cetera, et cetera.
matt: Like, it was not in most people's conscience until a certain time period. And that was, Ralph was doing that 10 years before that really took off.
RLGrails: I know. I know, shout out to, remember that show, How to Make It in America?
matt: Oh, yeah, yeah.
RLGrails: and That was like, it was like the era of like jean shop in New York City.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: And ah really really it was, I remember we were all wearing Los Angeles boot cut you know sevens and then all of a sudden nudies hit.
RLGrails: And when nudies hit and you're they're telling you, you got to buy them tight, so tight that you can barely do up the button because if you can do up the button, then in a week, they'll be so big, you'll never wear.
matt: right
RLGrails: And yet all these guys like going out and buying a dip, like chewing tobacco, it never dipped before just so they could have a circle printing into the jeans.
matt: yeah
matt: you know
RLGrails: It was like,
matt: i had I had friends that were straight edge and I was straight edge at the time too.
RLGrails: yeah.
matt: I never bought a thing of dip, but I had friends that would buy a thing of dip and put it in their pocket. I'm like, dude, you've never once dipped in your life.
RLGrails: No, never.
matt: Yeah. My first pair of salvage were nudie.
RLGrails: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: And then Obama banned the Flavor Dip. I mean, there's really nothing will nothing left.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: Oh, God.
matt: and Well, now we're now we're in the Zen era, so you can go buy a pack of Zins and just toss it in your salvage pockets.
RLGrails: ha and
RLGrails: god No, it took, you know what, man, I smoked. It took me so long to quit cigarettes. Like, like I smoked from like 12, like 97, I'm talking buying packs.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, me too.
RLGrails: Okay.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
RLGrails: Buying packs. And the last time I even had a drunk drag, I saw it was in April of 2023, the Roots were playing at this new new venue.
RLGrails: and I go down with my buddy, or a couple of guys go out for dinner. and like after the show hadn't had one After the show, my buddy is like, dude, we should get a pack of Parley's right now.
Conor Fowler: Uh-uh.
RLGrails: and This guy, this guy this guy like he's one of these three three kids, his wife calls all the shots. i was like I feel like you need to feel seen right now, so I'm going to support you in this endeavor.
matt: Hell yeah.
RLGrails: You know, and we're doing this for you that, but like, since that's the last side April of, I could for sure pull up the date, but April of 2023.
Conor Fowler: and ah
RLGrails: So it's like all these guys in my neighborhoods in now. And I, I just like, I don't want to, to, I mean, half the reason I do gummies instead of, I will smoke weed, like at a con, you know, if I'm at like dead and co or where have fish or whatever.
RLGrails: But I much more like would rather do like the gummies because like just the act of smoking is I don't want to start smoking cigs again.
Conor Fowler: e
RLGrails: i just don't.
Conor Fowler: See, i don't I don't put them in as equivalent at all. like i smoke a ton of I smoke a ton of weed.
RLGrails: No.
Conor Fowler: I quit smoking cigarettes. I'm never tempted to smoke another cigarette. I just feel like weed is like you're getting so much out of it that you are not getting out of a cigarette. It's like almost impossible to compare them.
matt: The last time you...
RLGrails: But did did you not smoke a cigarette right after you smoked a J and it would get you higher? Like the inhaling of the tobacco would somehow reinforce the THC going down into your cysts. I felt that way. Maybe I'm wrong, but.
Conor Fowler: No, I know that that's out there, but I feel like I i started smoking when I – I really started smoking in earnest when I quit drinking. So like I was not smoking really at all.
RLGrails: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Like I was never smoking out of an apple, for example.
RLGrails: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Conor Fowler: oh I smoked out of a tin can one time, but it was not a regular – yeah, exactly.
RLGrails: It's like rec shop.
Conor Fowler: It was not a regular practice. So it's like –
matt: but my best friend and tonight My best friend and I were hanging out the other night and it was like one of our late night just being goblin times and we were talking about smoking out of an apple and she was like, fuck, we should do that.
RLGrails: yeah
RLGrails: Yeah.
matt: And so we did. And it's still great, honestly.
Conor Fowler: No, I'm not saying a shame a shame ah a shame cast upon the apple smokers.
matt: yeah
Conor Fowler: I'm saying I just didn't have that kind of ingenuity like because I've always been able to smoke out of a bong. I could fucking walk around and smoke a bong in front of a cop. It wouldn't matter.
matt: Right, right. Also, the last time you smoked a cigarette was probably when I came to Baltimore. So...
Conor Fowler: Right. Right. I actually think I smoked one at my grandmother's funeral and it was just, I was just like, I don't, I don't like, I didn't even finish it. I smoked like a drag of the cigarette and i was like, well, don't know why I'm doing this.
RLGrails: Yeah, see, I could not. Dude, if I did that, I'd be like, yeah, I'll have another drag later. Yeah, I'll have another drag in the morning. You know, when I'm, oh, just on the weekends when I'm, and then sure enough, I'm buying packs.
Conor Fowler: Well, that's Mark Twain, right?
RLGrails: Like, that's how it goes. Yeah.
Conor Fowler: Mark Twain said quitting smoking is the easiest thing in the world.
RLGrails: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I've done it hundreds of times.
RLGrails: i here
matt: ah ah So, i think to finish up, ah this this is a Conner question, I'm pretty sure, but it's it's a good thought experiment.
RLGrails: yeah
matt: So Ralph, as we all know, he wasn't born into wasp eritocracy, but he sold that image better than anyone.
RLGrails: No.
RLGrails: well There's one group that I would think said sold it more.
matt: Who?
RLGrails: And they were also not WASPs. They were a bunch of Catholics, Irish Catholics. Connor, you should know this. little Little political dynasty family.
Conor Fowler: The Kennedys, yeah.
RLGrails: That's it.
matt: Oh, the Kennedys. Okay. Okay. yeah okay well
RLGrails: That's it.
matt: but Okay. Kennedys aside, as far as clothing goes, you know. he He created this universe that encompasses...
RLGrails: Yes.
Conor Fowler: Well, because they were wasps, right? I mean, of course the Kennedys looked like wasps. They were wasps, sort of.
RLGrails: They were engaging in wasp culture.
Conor Fowler: Wasps.
matt: they were and Yeah, they weren't they weren't Anglo-Saxon, so...
Conor Fowler: Wasks.
Conor Fowler: They were not Protestant.
matt: Yeah, not Protestant.
RLGrails: I mean, the father was the father was a bootlegger. They were, they these were, I mean, let's, yeah I know this is a conversation that is like an Ivy style thing, but the wasp look,
RLGrails: Like, look at J Press. These were Jewish people. Chip.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: Like, all all all of
matt: So was Brick Brothers. So was Levi's.
RLGrails: all of the clothiers were actually Jewish. Then this then this family political dynasty family, of course, they were in the military too, right? So as well as like the GIs that came home from World War II and created Ivy style, like incorporating their the khakis into, they created Ivy style. But like so much of what's identified as wasp culture has its roots with other people, Ralph,
RLGrails: the the Jewish tailors, the Kennedys. And then you also have the television aspect on top of it.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: but But I'm not going to pretend like there weren't the Boston Brahmins like at country clubs with wearing not wearing white after Labor Day. That was very much a thing.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: so So yeah.
matt: Well, I, okay.
RLGrails: But anyways, go on with what you're
matt: So the the question is not, is not who, who has sold it better. The question that we wanted to ask was, how does that affect the authenticity of the brand?
matt: in your opinion.
RLGrails: I don't think the brand is trying to be authentic.
matt: Okay.
Conor Fowler: He.
RLGrails: I don't. I think Ralph Lauren is a huge movie buff. and in a way, the movies that he always references are, they talk about like these fancy people and apartments in in white tie with, tu like,
RLGrails: that itself wasn't authentic. That was Goldwyn Meyer giving you those images in those films and they resonate with people because people want to imagine that they're part of it.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: And I think that Ralph basically took that and made it. And just instead of doing it in film, he did it in this lane with clothing.
RLGrails: Like i don't, I, I, I, You're talking about a guy who wears light jeans with a tux jacket. There is no authentic to that.
RLGrails: There is no place where that was ever dress code or ever.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: He literally doesn't care. He just, I don't want to sound like I'm a shill for RL, but this idea of dreams, I don't think he's concerned about whether who's entitled to wear blue blazers and who's entitled to have this lifestyle, especially since he himself, I mean,
RLGrails: If you saw the documentary, it's the brother who said, like listen, like this is the US. Our last name is Liv Schitts and or it is in it.
matt: Oh, yeah.
RLGrails: It wasn't Ralph. It was him. who
matt: Jerry was a fucking legend.
RLGrails: But Jerry was the one before RL the company. was like, come on, like they're calling a shitsy all day and I don't want to get into a fist fight.
RLGrails: And and they changed it.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: But in terms of authenticity, like come on, dude. like I'm sitting here in a blue blazer i've mett with brass buttons. I've never been in the Navy.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: Right? I i didn't i don't know. I mean, there are times where people go take things too far.
matt: Right, right.
RLGrails: You know, you get into the LARPing of like working class culture. i think that can go too far.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: Obviously, i don't think you see many people wearing like a lot of native Navajo stuff in a literal context anymore. That's kind of fallen by the wayside.
RLGrails: Right. But yeah, yeah, for sure.
Conor Fowler: Which, good. I mean, that's like, that was like to so, so, so, so fucking popular. People wearing like headdresses and stuff.
matt: Oh, God, yeah.
RLGrails: I'll do my mother-in-law, like my mother-in-law, know, she's the boomer and blah, blah, blah. Like the room that she has for like my kids when I go visit her in Texas is like cowboys and Indians themed.
matt: Of course.
RLGrails: Now I'm not about to like have the, comp even try to have the conversation as to, you know, how in 2026, but that's a point where it is, it's just, you know, with Ralph, I don't think, I don't think it's inauthentic.
Conor Fowler: Right.
RLGrails: I think he's like, this is what I like. And if you want to be part of it, fucking great. Like, like, it like that's it. I just think that's what I think.
matt: And I'll say To that point, everything that he has done over the course of his, you know, rise to rise to prominence and his career has been what he wants things to look like. And I think that makes the brand very authentic to the person that came up with that or the, the people that came up with the ideas.
RLGrails: Yes. I mean, today, because it's such a large business, they do chase things, unfortunately, sometimes that are for sales.
matt: Right. Right.
RLGrails: Right. Like I people copy Ralph. Ralph copies other people. There's no right. If if in general pants are getting slimmer, he's getting slimmer. If in general things are loosening up, finally, thank God now he's starting to loosen up.
Conor Fowler: Mm-hmm.
RLGrails: But do I think that Paraboot, for example, do I think they own the Tyrolean shape shoe?
RLGrails: No. But maybe when Ralph came out with theirs, they didn't have to put like a green tag that says Polo instead of Paraboot. Like maybe that's like Come on.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: Like it's, it's too far or maybe well, what Canada goose comes out and they're popular for 10 years and they've got these circle patches on the arm. Well, now you see these Ralph parkas with circle patches that say like there are tough because they're so big and in so many app, they're going to have to chase those easy dollars.
RLGrails: Right. But the, the idea of like, Barracuda G9s or the original Harrington jacket. And that's the only one. Well, dude, like the kid in Iowa doesn't know that.
RLGrails: And he's never going to have any, he's not going to have like the ability to have it.
matt: Yeah,
Conor Fowler: It's just
RLGrails: If not polo's making it and there's a polo factory store and the kid gets it and it's sick. And then maybe he gets into other areas of the brand and then he finds out about the brand and then all of a sudden he's like getting interviewed on apocalypse does right do you know what mean like like that you can't you can't claim you can't claim entire genres of things for yourself to say it's inauthentic because it's not the original because then you're just excluding too many people
matt: yeah.
matt: yeah
matt: No, definitely not. and
matt: And most clothing, menswear, especially womenswear also, unless it's couture, unless it's Rick Owens or something along that line, like none of it is ever reinventing the wheel.
matt: it's It's essentially taking something that you know might have been made a hundred years ago and seeing it through your lens and recreating that in, in the way that you want to do it.
RLGrails: For sure.
matt: And like, you know, that's just, that's just how the clothing industry is and has been since the dawn of time.
RLGrails: for sure
RLGrails: Yeah, it's just he happens to choose the thing where the color palette is the timeless aspect. Like people throw around timeless.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: There's no such thing as timeless. Like we don't wear frock coats anymore, not wearing ruffled neck garters.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: But it seems to be that navy looks pretty damn good on everyone.
matt: Totally.
RLGrails: ever Everybody.
Conor Fowler: right
RLGrails: Everybody. Okay. And then when you combine Navy with beige or khaki, that's just a pretty damn good combination. So while the the fits might get looser, baggier, and the cuts might get wider and longer and shorter and blah, blah, blah.
RLGrails: There's something about those colors that just, they just, everyone just looks great. Like everyone looks great in Navy.
matt: totally
RLGrails: It matter if you're pale. doesn't matter if you have purple. Like, everybody looks great in that color. And he's the king of it. That's why everyone should have a double-breasted navy doe skin jacket.
Conor Fowler: i enough enough
RLGrails: So, yeah.
matt: Well, this has been hella fun and a lot more heady than I thought it was going to be, but but in like a really good way.
RLGrails: Well, I hope so.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
RLGrails: I mean, I just...
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: Again, like I said, I get some...
Conor Fowler: You're a cerebral dude.
RLGrails: Sometimes I do think though, it's like, I stop and I think like, is this too much? You know, like, is it, is it, is it, right?
Conor Fowler: No, man, the answer is no.
RLGrails: Because I'm human, right? I'm going to second guess myself. And as much as I, like I said, like, this is my, I just, I just enjoy it.
RLGrails: Right.
matt: Yeah.
RLGrails: And, and I don't, you know, i I have some rules about it that I've set for myself.
matt: Right.
RLGrails: Like, you know i don't I don't trash talk other brands by name. I might imply it, but I don't do that. And i if if obviously not everything I own is Ralph, so I just leave that out, like if of if I'm explaining something. And I have like my personal life and my, right? But I guess the main thing was just, you know i won I have my job, my business that I have, and I wanted to do something kind of
RLGrails: I don't want to say creative because that's just, I'm not Picasso by any means, but I just wanted something that wasn't work and child rearing related. And but I guess it's fun. Like I just, I just enjoy it a lot.
matt: Hell yeah.
RLGrails: So yeah.
matt: Well...
RLGrails: Right. And you guys like, youre like you're doing this, right. You're not just consuming the content. You're now you're making something right.
matt: We try. Yeah, whatever we're doing.
Conor Fowler: Yeah, whatever we're doing.
matt: yeah what whatever we'
RLGrails: let get what what are What am I doing? I'm taking pictures of clothes talking about the the rise of pants. Like, who cares? but I'm still doing something, right?
Conor Fowler: the rise of The Rise of Pants is a really great title for something.
RLGrails: I'm not...
RLGrails: The rise of pants.
Conor Fowler: Oh, perhaps this episode.
RLGrails: Yeah.
Conor Fowler: I don't know. I guess we'll see.
matt: Yeah, possibly, possibly. Well, uh, dude, once again, thank you. Um, tell everyone where they can find you and follow along your, uh, Ralph journey and lore.
RLGrails: Yes, so I am on Instagram and my handle is at ah RL Grails. And if you know the one thing I'll say is ask me the question.
RLGrails: If you've looking at something and if there's a way I don't know at all and I can be wrong at at best, I can only be 70% right. But if I've seen it before, I'll tell you. If you ask me how it, what I think about it, I'll give you the answer.
RLGrails: Maybe I'm not going to be so honest if I think it looks awful on you, but but but if we're if we're talking about the details of of the brand, I'll at least try to give an answer.
matt: Yeah, you know.
RLGrails: And if I don't know it, I know some other people I can reach out to to find out for you.
matt: Fuck yeah.
RLGrails: So, yeah.
matt: Fuck yeah.
RLGrails: All right.
matt: All right. Well, everybody, thank you for listening. We are at ApocalypseDuds on Instagram. Please give us a follow. I think we just hit 1400, which is kind of wild that it's that big, but also kind of low.
Conor Fowler: Yeah.
matt: Uh, so yeah. Um, something we would love is if you enjoy what we do, share us with your friends, uh, however that may be in person or your family.
Conor Fowler: Or your family or strangers, you know, it doesn't really matter.
matt: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you know some, if you know someone that wants to listen to, as i think Zach Smith said, the least pretentious menswear podcast, tell them about us.
Conor Fowler: Coworkers.
matt: Uh, um,
Conor Fowler: Right. High phrase.
matt: Yes, ah we are apocalypticstuds at gmail.com. I am Matt Smith at Rebels Rogues.
Conor Fowler: And I am Connor Fowler at Connor Flower.
matt: We will see you next week.
Conor Fowler: Ta-ta.
RLGrails: Cheers.
