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S3E8 with Kelsey Wahl
215 Plays7 months ago
Thanks for listening to our episode with Kelsey Wahl (executive ghost writer! Social media leader for BIG TECH!).
Follow Meredith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meredith-farley/
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Email Meredith: [email protected]
We loved talking to Kelsey.
Follow her on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelseywahl
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Transcript
Introduction to Meredith and Kelsey
00:00:04
Speaker
Hey guys, welcome to Content People. I'm your host, Meredith Farley. And I've been leaving in a bunch of rambly stuff at the start, so it doesn't mean you gotta really get going. Okay, good. Kelsey, can I tell you that I love you? I love you. And I'm so happy that you did this. Thank you.
00:00:31
Speaker
It's an honor. Thank you for inviting me to do this. So for folks listening, you are one of my best friends and my college roommate. And you also have a super cool job doing all kinds of amazing stuff, but not least of which is executive ghostwriting and social media leadership at some pretty big tech companies. So.
The Role of an Executive Ghostwriter
00:00:58
Speaker
Thank you for joining Kelsey Wall. Welcome to Content People. Thanks for having me Meredith. I'm thrilled to be here. And so for anyone, I usually say for anyone who doesn't know you, can you say who you are and what you do? That's feeling overly formal, but I don't know, maybe tell the kids what you do for work.
00:01:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'm an executive ghostwriter in New York City. I'm based in Brooklyn. So I work mainly with C-level executive clients. And throughout my career, I've mainly been helping them prepare blog posts, bylines, social content, event presentations, and panel remarks. A wide variety of content types, but yeah, just helping those execs because they're busy. They need some support.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah, they're busy, but also I'd say most of them are not as good at what you do as you are. Just to get that in there. Like most execs are not great. It's a rare exec who's also an incredible copywriter slash understand social media.
Kelsey's Career Path and Focus on Writing
00:02:02
Speaker
It's true. I think about it a lot more than they do. Let me go over to our little, there's so much I want to pick your brain about. I want to pick up your brain about the ghost writing, the technical aspects of it, the ins and outs of what you do. But maybe first I want to ask like, how did you get here? You have a really cool role. What roles and events led to this moment in time in your career?
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. And it's so funny. Like I feel like roles like mine didn't really exist in the last, but like in the last five to eight years, now you see a lot of companies posting jobs for in-house executive communications people. And it's just very cool. I've never really been the type of person who knew exactly who they wanted to be or what they wanted to do. So my career has been very free flowing.
00:02:56
Speaker
It's been pretty interesting because again, things have come up that I didn't know existed until they did. I started to get into them and realized that I had an interest and a talent for it. I started as a marketing assistant and that was really great for me as someone who didn't know exactly what they wanted. I was on a small team of marketers. There were four of us and we did everything.
00:03:23
Speaker
And especially my role, I really got to do a bit of everything.
Evolution of Executive Communications
00:03:29
Speaker
So I did event support, logistical planning while also doing social media and getting into content when content marketing started to become a thing. And that was really exciting. I even did some product marketing.
00:03:42
Speaker
just the whole gambit. Demand gen, digital marketing, I got to see everything. And then the company I was working with at the time launched a blog. It was like early days of companies really having blogs. And I realized I really liked that. And I had a strong writing background already. So I really started to focus on that throughout my career and mostly working on demand generation.
00:04:08
Speaker
lead gen content, lots of ebooks, case studies, things like that. But then I started to get more into thought leadership, working with executives, working on bylines, things like that. And I started to really become more interested in that. And eventually, yeah, I got to be working with executives and ghostwriting pretty much full time. And it's been a really
00:04:35
Speaker
cool experience. It is never boring. I'll tell you that there's always a lot happening. And yeah, it's very cool to see how just executive communications in general has become a thing and like, ghostwriters have been brought to the forefront in that way. Yeah, it's funny. I
00:04:57
Speaker
It was like only when we were really talking about maybe like doing this episode where I was like, it's funny that you and I ended up both working on the same thing. Like executive columns and ghost writing is so much of what Medbury does. And it's, but you were doing it before me.
College Memories and Early Career Surprises
00:05:11
Speaker
It's something you've been doing for a long time at your company. And before that. Well, I was going to say, I've always been inspired by you, but I guess if I did it first, I don't know how that worked, but the feeling is mutual. But before we go on, did you get a haircut recently?
00:05:25
Speaker
Oh, no, it's just, I let it dry naturally. It's amazing. Oh my God. It's incredible. It's very 70s. I'm loving it. Thank you. I got a shag end of last year and it's been growing out a lot, thank God, because it was really short at one point. Making me want a shag. I mean that in the cut way, not like awesome. When you're talking about the way
00:05:53
Speaker
To your point, I feel like you and I have had so many conversations about this over the years. I don't think either of us really came out of school. We both went to Ithaca together. You were communications marketing and design. Was that your major? Yes.
00:06:08
Speaker
Great memory. I was, I started journalism, then I switched to writing. So we're both in the writing communication space. And I don't think either of us really were like, I know exactly what my path is. I think I thought PR, which is funny because I've always been like PR adjacent and I had an internship, but I never really did. I was never like at a PR agency. And then you,
The Art of Ghostwriting: Listening and Empathy
00:06:31
Speaker
your first, everyone should go to LinkedIn and read your amazing post slash article about
00:06:38
Speaker
your first year out of school, which was you being an award-winning debt collector in Buffalo, or was it in- Yeah, East Aurora, south of Buffalo.
00:06:52
Speaker
Yeah, I left that out of the career trajectory question. Forgot about that. For folks like, you are just such a, you're one of the kindest people I know. And I feel like all of our friends are, were shocked when you said like, you were the award winning debt collector, but there's something about you. Like you're, you have a soft strength that really gets what you need out of situations, which now that we're talking about it, I'm sure helps with executive ghostwriting too, because you need to be like,
00:07:21
Speaker
managing complex situations, people, you need to get what you need from these super busy, super dynamic individuals in a time sensitive way. Yeah, thinking about the debt collection job and how it does connect to what I do now. With the debt collection stuff, the people I talked to on the phone, people just wanted to be listened to. They just wanted to be heard. And in a way, in my role there, you have to become an advocate
00:07:51
Speaker
For those people, a lot of the times I would be talking about their financial backgrounds. I would be talking about their lives. They'd be sharing struggles about being like a single parent and having to navigate.
00:08:04
Speaker
working full time while taking care of their kids. I would have to go to my boss and say, look, here's the rationale, why they can't pay, things like that. And you become an advocate for them. And it's similar with ghostwriting because you're spending
00:08:23
Speaker
time getting to know these people as communicators. And you could be completely different. Like I write for people who are completely different than I am, but you have to just understand their situations and who they are and have a lot of empathy and understanding in order to best represent them. And yeah, it was the same thing with debt collection in a weird way. I've never thought about it like that, but you're completely right. No, that is really funny. And
00:08:53
Speaker
I wouldn't have expected what you said, which is that as a debt collector, like you were so successful because people to have an, to have an effective interaction with someone, you had to understand them and I said, you had to listen to them. And what, so I want to, there's so much I want to ask you about your take on ghostwriting.
Understanding Executive Clients
00:09:14
Speaker
So when, so you, the type of ghostwriting you're doing, like you already said, but it's,
00:09:18
Speaker
blogs, social media content. Are you ever doing internal or external emails or that type of communication for an exec?
00:09:28
Speaker
Yes, yes, I've definitely worked on both internal and external emails for execs, this kind of the shortest potential projects for them too. So you do have to understand the tone across both like what an internal organization's employees want to hear versus the audiences that are more geared toward the external comms goals. So
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, that's always an interesting balance to see like there are there are words and like ways to say things that there might be small differences between the two if I was writing about the same topic to both internal or external audiences like it is interesting to see how I would change between the two tones and what I would include and what I wouldn't and what would keep the same because you're not always
00:10:18
Speaker
changing the tone wildly because it's still the same person who's writing but there are definitely differences that you keep in mind and yeah that's always been a fun balance. So if a new exec started and you were going to be writing
00:10:36
Speaker
a couple blog pieces for them, maybe some internal or external email, some social content. What would be your process? How would you get to know them? What would you do with them? And then what would you do in private to try and figure out how to inhabit their voice?
00:10:52
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Whenever working with a new executive client, I first look up what is already available publicly on them so anything they've written previously, anything that they like maybe any videos they've been and maybe they've presented at events.
00:11:11
Speaker
If you're lucky enough to get a video of them presenting at an event, that's always really interesting to watch. Anything they've posted on social too, like even if it's not LinkedIn, even if it's not related to work, like you want to know who they are as a person overall. So just finding out more about them. And then typically I would sit down and do a little interview with them.
00:11:31
Speaker
basically about their communication style, who they are as a communicator, who they are as a leader, what their usual style is, what their goals are, everything to grammar pet peeves, things that if they've ever had anyone write for them in the past, what did they find themselves changing?
00:11:52
Speaker
Ooh, great questions. I'm going to add that to the Medbury questionnaire. Sorry, taking notes. Keep going. No, this is, and I have to say this, all of these questions, I put them together. I do like a voice profile on this person. And I have to say that idea came from working with an external agency years ago, who I saw doing these kind of profiles. So I,
00:12:17
Speaker
adapted that idea and expanded it really to include things around how they like to work with ghostwriters, what the process is for them. Would they prefer to be involved from the strategic planning part and weigh in on that? Or would they rather see a full proposed draft or outline or abstract with some bullet points? What is their typical process and where do they want to be involved so that
00:12:47
Speaker
myself or anyone else who may write for them can do it in the way that works best for their schedule and for their taste too. That sounds great. I'm trying to think.
Balancing Voices in Ghostwriting
00:12:57
Speaker
I feel like it's probably similar to the way we've been doing things at Medbury. We'll look for videos. We'll look for old podcast episodes. We've also started to record the kickoff meetings as a way to export the transcript and see what their voice looks like.
00:13:14
Speaker
when written, which I'm sure you probably do too. There's nothing that you want. I have to record the call. That's a must. You can only take so many notes. I think recording the call is a really important part because you really need, it gets deep work. And I think you and I have talked about that. You really have to be able to pay attention to
00:13:35
Speaker
how they talk about things too, like what makes them light up. You can tell when they start talking about something that's really passionate to them. Like those are the moments that you really want to pay attention to every single thing about the call. And if it's video recording, like you could just watch everything too, because you may eventually be writing for them for an event presentation where they have to speak something. So it's not just something that you can publish and put out into the world. Like eventually it's something that
00:14:05
Speaker
you have to hand back to them to really deliver, which is a wild experience in and of itself. One of my tics after guests say stuff that they like, and sorry for everyone listening who will now only ever hear me do this, but I'll be like, I love that. But I do love that. That all makes so much sense. Did you watch on Netflix the persuasion, the Jane Austen adaptation with Dakota Johnson and that dude who's in Shogun?
00:14:34
Speaker
Not yet. It's on my list though. I know people, a lot of people who liked Jane Austen did not like that, but I loved it. And there was one line where I actually don't know if it's from persuasion. I can't remember, but she says about the love interest. He listens with his whole body and it's intoxicating. And I feel like that's you. And I think that's one of the reasons you're such an amazing writer, but I love how much you're highlighting just how much ghost writing is.
00:15:04
Speaker
It's like process and technical skill, but it's also, there's so much the deep work that you mentioned of like really paying attention and trying to support someone. Do you think that anyone who's a great technical writer could also learn like through these processes and skills to be a really good ghost writer? Or do you think that there has to be some type of like energetic openness or perceptiveness or empathy
00:15:33
Speaker
to really get in there and be able to write in someone's voice. I don't want to rule anybody out. There may be people who aren't highly sensitive or people who may not have that kind of intuition about people or ability to deep listen, but I think that has the opportunity. You have to be really curious about people. I think that
00:15:56
Speaker
is the one thing that you can't fake your way into with ghostwriting. You have to be curious about people. And again, it can be people who are very different from you, who have very different worldviews. You can't be closed off to someone who you might be writing for. You have to be really open to understanding their point of view, even if it is greatly different from your own. So I think that really helps.
00:16:24
Speaker
helps you become a good ghostwriter is having that kind of curiosity and openness towards other people, which it's inherent in some people, but I think people can also learn or be trained to ask questions and be curious. I think once you're aware of something, I think just being aware of it can help you grow that skill. One thing that's really interesting too about
00:16:52
Speaker
being a ghostwriter and especially when you're supporting executives who are also obviously very focused on achieving their business goals and building their profile within their industry. That's their whole reason why they want to do this. So you have to be
00:17:09
Speaker
mindful of the balance between, it's almost like applying filters for the end content that you produce because it's okay. So as a content marketer, you are writing for a business. You are getting the messaging in for that business. You're very focused on that. Being a ghostwriter, you have to do the same thing, but also apply filters of a specific person. And
00:17:35
Speaker
their point of view about the industry that also rings true to the business messaging. So yeah, it's almost like just applying filters to an end product and being a ghostwriter is just adding more filters as a content marketer. That's fascinating. That's such a cool visual to think about it like that. Okay, a couple of follow up questions.
00:17:59
Speaker
Number one, you mentioned like the openness that you think is required. And I know what you're talking about totally. Can you do great work for someone you really don't like slash someone who's not kind to you?
Dealing with Challenging Clients
00:18:15
Speaker
That's such a good question. And yes, I think you can compartmentalize it and then still open up energetically to receive what you need to receive.
00:18:26
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. So if they're treating you poorly, that's a whole other conversation about what is acceptable in a work setting. I think if they are someone whose ethos you support, it makes the job more fun and you are more passionate about doing good work for them. But I think it comes down to there's this, that great quote
00:18:55
Speaker
Every villain is the protagonist of his own story. I love that quote. You're just all empathy. Yeah, it's all empathy. It's understanding that even someone who's evil has a reason that in their mind where they feel justified. So you essentially just have to understand, okay, from this person's point of view, this is their reasoning and get behind it.
00:19:22
Speaker
Would I write something that I completely disagree with that I think puts out an evil message into the world? No, I can't do that. But can I work for someone who I don't agree with on everything or who doesn't take the same approach to humanity as I do? Yes, I can do that.
00:19:45
Speaker
Interesting. I just, as you were talking, I got this idea they had for a cartoon show where you're the ghostwriter for a bunch of famous villains and each episode is like your intake with them and then some story happens and then in the meanwhile you're like dealing with emails from Maleficent or something.
00:20:04
Speaker
You should pitch. That's incredible. You need to be the star and the writer. Okay, so I was taking notes as you were talking because I now we're like three sub-question levels deep here, but that makes sense to me. I think that's really interesting. I've been thinking lately about this idea. I feel like especially like in agencies and I saw this so much in my time
00:20:24
Speaker
What am I trying to say? I think that the muse, if one subscribes to that, which I do, which however, I think to me, it's present in what we're talking about in your like ability to turn on and open up and perceive what you need to perceive and then synthesize it into something that's going to do the job, but also in technical and more subtle ways, like be in someone's voice in a way that they feel seen and heard and comfortable releasing that out into the world.
00:20:53
Speaker
There's a tiny bit, I think, of magic there. And I think sometimes the hardest thing with agency work for some folks is that, and I know you're not an agency, this is just like something that's been rattling around in my head, is this idea that if the clients are really shitty to you,
00:21:08
Speaker
and where your boss or manager is, I think it gets harder for the creative teams. The muse does not show up for mean clients or bad bosses, I don't think, as easily as it does when people feel respected and supported. I don't know where I'm going with that, nowhere in particular.
00:21:32
Speaker
It seems like you really have just a very laser focused ability to do what you need to do. And I know you've also written for some super cool like badass CEOs. You've done a lot. You've had some really cool execs that you've done awesome fun projects for. I don't mean to imply like you've got any like evil execs or something like that in your orphit.
00:21:53
Speaker
No, I'm really lucky that I've, throughout my career, I've gotten to work with great people who I support and I agree with and I feel supported by them. And we have really good working relationships. Yeah. I'm very lucky. I realize you don't always get to pick who you write for. So sometimes you have to put, yeah, you have to put that aside, but I, yeah, I can see if you are not supported and if you are.
00:22:19
Speaker
treated unfairly or poorly. Yeah, that definitely, as you said, inhibits the muse. It's very hard to be looking at a blank page when you're like, the ultimate goal is to raise the profile of someone who is treating me horribly. And that has to be a terrible feeling. I'm very lucky to have worked with people who do not do that.
Collaboration and Feedback with Executives
00:22:42
Speaker
So I can only encourage working with people and finding your tribe who support you and
00:22:49
Speaker
lift you up and who are collaborative. It's very hard to it's and it's even one thing I found is it's not working with people who necessarily treat you poorly but
00:23:02
Speaker
Given the nature of working with executives, sometimes they are just extremely busy and they can't really be part of a collaboration process. You start with the ideal process and you can really only do what they can give you to in a lot of cases. If they are unable to commit the time to work with you and collaborate with you throughout the process and give you feedback that
00:23:27
Speaker
that affects the outcome. I will say I've worked with people in the past like very early on when I was ghostwriting. I remember working with an executive and it was like one of the first presentations I'd ever written for an event. So I was working with this person and they
00:23:48
Speaker
gave me positive feedback throughout the whole process. And given that they're very busy, we didn't get to have that many check-ins, but everything along the way was very positive. And they delivered the presentation and I heard good things. And then I heard through the grapevine, through someone else that they hated the presentation. They told you they liked it? Yeah.
00:24:12
Speaker
Yeah. So that honesty on both sides of the collaboration process is very important for everyone to be happy. I never, I surprisingly didn't take that feedback too much to heart. I am definitely the kind of person who would be like, oh no, but it's more, I don't want anybody to go, especially to go up on stage and feel like they can't be 100% behind what they're saying and feel comfortable.
Risks and Reassurance in Ghostwriting
00:24:39
Speaker
That is absolutely the last thing I want.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's a tricky situation. Did you work with them again in the future, or was it just that one project? I did work with them in the future, not necessarily on event presentations, but on other content. And we found a great groove, and they raved about me to my boss, which was very nice. So eventually, we got there. And again, that was very early on in my career. But still, I was like, oh, no.
00:25:12
Speaker
I had no idea. I wonder, it's so interesting. Something else I think that happens with ghostwriting copy more so than with just regular marketing copy is that when it's about to come from a person, I think sometimes in the moment of reviewing it,
00:25:31
Speaker
they will freak out a little bit or they'll look at everything in a calm moment and be like, yeah, this looks fantastic. I love it. Great. And then probably they go home that night. They think about it. They can't sleep. They're like, is that is they're worried because it's a risk. Did they feel the risk of putting something out there in their name? And I think there can be a little last minute jitters and overthinking that can happen with ghost written content in a way that doesn't always happen with more straightforward marketing copy.
00:25:59
Speaker
Or have you experienced that? What do you think? Yeah, absolutely. I've definitely experienced that. With any content, content is putting pen to paper. You can't hide as a content person, but you're right. Having it come from a person and not just the company name, it definitely adds this layer.
00:26:20
Speaker
As you said, it affects their reputation. I think you as a ghostwriter have to be aware of that risk and you have to be very mindful of it and you have to pay close attention to how everything that's written could be or said could be perceived by the market and what are the risks to and what will that executive have to be prepared for to answer questions about. You have to be thinking about
00:26:50
Speaker
what happens after this content goes out into the world. I think that helps prepare for and put the executive's mind at ease about what they're putting out there.
00:27:06
Speaker
No, I lost it. But that does happen where you're going along and the process is great and you're getting great feedback and the person is like, yep, this is all in line with what I want. This sounds like me. And then at the last minute, actually let me edit all these things. That definitely happens too. And that's honestly, it's part of the process and it's part of the process of working with a new
00:27:29
Speaker
person who you're ghostwriting for too. It's not going to be perfect the first time for sure. They're going to have feedback. A lot of being a ghostwriter is establishing trust with the person who you're working with and with any working relationship, that's critical.
Building Trust with Clients
00:27:48
Speaker
This person has to be confident that you have their best interests in mind too, so it's very important too.
00:27:57
Speaker
listen to them to take their feedback to also, you know, if you disagree with the feedback or if you feel very strongly that it's not going to go the way they want, you have to speak up to like, you have to have an open relationship. But yeah, it's a really interesting balance. It is and I like what you said so much about that. It's important that they that you have to build trust and you have to
00:28:27
Speaker
They have to know that you have their back. And it's funny, I, with a lot of clients in the first month, I think there's a lot of, it's the process. It's what you're talking about. And one thing I've found it to be helpful to express and to truly mean is to just let them know that we take the responsibility of writing for them and representing them so seriously. And we're not going to put anything out there that we don't think is
00:28:54
Speaker
exceptional and we want nothing that's potentially embarrassing. And I think even to like just saying that can put people at ease because especially if you are an executive there, if, if something wasn't thoughtful, there's some like shit can go down. Bad things can, there can be ramifications for content that doesn't do what you need it to do. But one thing I'm curious about is when you're writing something and you're
00:29:24
Speaker
working on a piece of content and you're like, I am like in the flow here, like I unlocked it, I nailed it. This is exactly what I was trying to get to. Have you ever felt that just ping of this is great, few, and then shown it to a client and had them not like it? Or do you feel like when you get that feeling, it generally is, it's good to go across the board? I've definitely had moments where
00:29:54
Speaker
Because I'm always trying to push the content forward and make it better. So I have, especially for events, I really like to try and add more, a little bit more story and framework and make it different. Because typically with, especially industry events,
00:30:12
Speaker
the audience like always keeping the audience in mind like they hear presentation after presentation so I like to mix it up and try to add more story and I'll propose something that's maybe a little different than what we've done in the past and
00:30:31
Speaker
that's always a gamble that they might be like, oh, I'm like, at the end of the day, they're the ones presenting it. So if they're like, yeah, I'm, I'm not going to be like, I'm just gonna get right into it. I'm not going to set up this metaphor or whatever, whatever the different kind of content approach is that happens for sure. So I think as a ghostwriter, you really have to
00:30:56
Speaker
let your ego go. You really do. It's so funny. My nephew said to me a while back after I told him what I did, he was like, Aunt Kels, do you ever write anything with your name on it? Wow, cut deep there. But it, I don't know. It's, I think there's this misconception about ghostwriting that because your name isn't on it, that there's something unfulfilling about it. But
00:31:25
Speaker
I disagree with that.
Finding Fulfillment in Ghostwriting
00:31:27
Speaker
I think like I've never been someone who needs the credit or needs my name to be there. I think there's something even more satisfying about creating something for someone else that then they're like, yes, this is
00:31:48
Speaker
good to represent me. I'm comfortable with that. I am comfortable with you speaking for me in a way. There's something really satisfying about that.
00:32:00
Speaker
Like one of my favorite pieces of feedback ever is, and this has happened multiple times, is when executives who I work with call me creepy. They're like, oh, this work is really, I felt a little creepy reading this because it sounds just like me. It sounds like just how I would say this. And I'm like, perfect. That's what I'm going for.
00:32:27
Speaker
Hey guys, interrupting this interview for 10 seconds to talk about Medbury. Medbury is a social media agency that I founded in 2023 and we produced this podcast. Our promise is pretty simple. We create social media strategies that really, really work. We offer of LinkedIn, Instagram, and newsletter management for founders, execs, entrepreneurs, public figures, and brands. Our clients often see significant results within just a few weeks of us working together.
00:32:54
Speaker
You can check out our website, sign up for our newsletter, or shoot us an email. Everything's in the show notes. Okay, back to the interview.
Personal Writing vs. Ghostwriting
00:33:08
Speaker
That's all so interesting.
00:33:11
Speaker
It's funny, yeah. There's a perception that ghostwriters are always just maybe frustrated artists in the wings who are like, why do I get my name on it? It is such a subtle craft and I appreciate everything that you just said. Do you think it's ever harder to write as yourself? Like when you write as yourself, easier or harder than writing as a ghostwriter to a brief?
00:33:39
Speaker
Yes. It's so funny because so I did theater in high school and I'm a pretty introverted person, but when I was doing theater, I would get up and sing and dance and act in front of hundreds of people. And it was fine because I was playing a character.
00:34:01
Speaker
But if I had to get up in front of hundreds of people and just be me and say something that I thought of, wow, that would be just paralyzing. I don't know if I could even really do that. So I find it to be very similar when I'm writing under my own name and giving my own thoughts, especially if I'm
00:34:28
Speaker
If I'm not doing content marketing, if it's not representing a business and this is just purely representing me and my thoughts, that is a whole other level. But I think it's good, as a ghostwriter, I think it is good to develop your own voice and remember your own voice and to not let that get lost in the process. It's very cool to be a chameleon and you can take on the personas of anyone you're writing for.
00:34:55
Speaker
But at the same time, at the end of the day, you are you and you need to know what you stand for and how you are as a communicator. Because maybe someday, if you're in a leadership role, someone's going to be on the other end of the phone asking you, how are you as a communicator and as a leader and you are going to be ghost written for and you have to have an answer. So just don't lose yourself in the process.
00:35:19
Speaker
It's funny. I feel like one of my deepest professional fantasies is to find someone who can ghost write for me where I'm like, yeah, that looks good. I'm sure I'm annoying for everyone I've ever worked with on that point. I just. What? But imagine how deeply supportive that would feel as the ghost writer. Can you imagine how it would feel to have someone see you so clearly and nail your voice so much that you didn't have to do much to get your message across at a big event?
00:35:49
Speaker
It's a wild concept. It's a wild feeling, I'm sure. Because of my empathy, yeah, I feel like I do understand how that would feel, but it would feel great. Okay, two questions left I want to save time for. One question, what is the craziest thing that has ever happened to you in your career?
High-pressure Executive Preparation
00:36:08
Speaker
Craziest. This was just like a big feelings project that I worked on. I was helping
00:36:16
Speaker
I was helping some executives prepare for an event for their company. It was an internal event for their company. I wasn't involved from the get-go. They had been working with their team and I was brought in on-site to help during rehearsals.
00:36:38
Speaker
They were rehearsing, this was dress rehearsal day before the big show in front of thousands of people on a 360-degree stage. And if you've been on a 360-degree stage, there is nowhere to hide. That is, you are very exposed. So all of these speakers were getting ready, energy was high, and the rehearsal did not go very well.
00:37:03
Speaker
And the big thing that I noticed was they were trying to do a lot of very specific cues. And that's great. It's very great if you have a very well-cued kind of performance or presentation, but that requires a lot of rehearsal. And some of the speakers may have been sick. They might have had a
00:37:27
Speaker
a ton of things going on. They hadn't gotten to really rehearse that much. Kind of day before this big show, I'm working with a few of them on the side and I'm streamlining the script because at that point when you are missing cues, you have to just keep it simple, keep it as simple as possible and establish any kind of way to just internalize
00:37:51
Speaker
the content that you are going to be presenting the next day in a way that makes sense for you. So you can't really be sticking to a specific script. You just have to make it easy on yourself.
00:38:04
Speaker
give yourself some grace. So we were rehearsing a lot the day before. So day of the show, I'm off on the side of the stage just biting my nails the whole time. At that point, it is out of your hands. There's only so much control you have in those moments. And I was watching and it ended up being phenomenal. They did a great job. But that's one of those things
00:38:31
Speaker
Early on in my career, I always said, I didn't want to work on events because events, they're so much out of your control and it made me too anxious, but events can give you the highest high. When your people do a great job and they really work it out, wow, it's magnificent. But the tension and the anxiety beforehand can be very scary. So they're rehearsing, it's terrible. Everyone's freaking out. Day of.
00:39:01
Speaker
more rehearsal, actual event, everyone nails it, it goes amazing. When you're saying that they were super, tensions were high, were people just like, how were people acting? Were they just falling apart? Were they snapping at each other? Were they angry? Were they terrified? Was it everything? No snapping.
00:39:24
Speaker
The group that I was working with, they were all very supportive of each other, but there was a moment of recognition of, this is not good. And once that moment happened, it was like, okay.
00:39:40
Speaker
What can we do right now to make you as ready as possible for the big event? And again, at that point, you have to just streamline. You have to keep it simple. Don't expect too much of yourself. Like cues and playing off of each other is so great if you're in a presentation with multiple people, but in order to make that work, you have to have it rehearsed. It has to be more of a memorization type thing and you just have to have it down and
00:40:10
Speaker
If you, I think that's one thing is you have to let go of expectations you might've had for, oh, it's gonna be this way, we're gonna present it, I'm gonna say a line, then you're gonna say a line, then I'm gonna say a line. No, if you're in crunch time, you have to do what you have to do to make that happen. So let go of the expectation that it has to be a certain way, make it as simple as possible, and then let it just naturally come. And then was it just like some kind of
00:40:40
Speaker
miracle or just everything aligned? And I like to call it day of magic. Okay. And it's, it is wonderful to see day of magic appear. It's not, it's not a guarantee that every speaker doesn't necessarily bring day of magic, but especially people who you work with over time. Like you can understand their patterns too, that maybe this person might not
00:41:08
Speaker
have nailed it during a rehearsal, they're going to nail it during the actual show and you can bet on it. So yeah, I've worked with a lot of people like that throughout my career. That's interesting. I think I've gotten a lot better at it and I actually enjoy speaking events and presentations, like big presentations now. I'm thinking back and I feel like when I was maybe like 28,
00:41:32
Speaker
And it was my first exec role and I had a couple of presentations. I felt like I had the opposite of day of magic. I was like, rehearsals were okay. And then I just feel like I was really screwed it on the day of. Interesting. I'm sure you were great. I'm grateful. There's no tape to play back. Hard to know, but okay. This is my favorite question, Kelsey.
00:42:02
Speaker
Have you ever seen a ghost?
Personal Ghostly Encounters
00:42:05
Speaker
Yes. Short answer, yes. A few years ago, my husband and I were visiting Joshua Tree and we stayed in the Joshua Tree Inn and there's some lore around
00:42:20
Speaker
this hotel because Graham Parsons, a musician, he was in the birds. He was in the flying burrito brothers. He famously died in one of the rooms at the Joshua Tree Inn. So it's a whole, I don't want to say gimmick, but it's a whole thing. You can stay in the room where Graham Parsons died. And I remember thinking like when we were making the reservation.
00:42:46
Speaker
my husband's, Oh, do you want to stay in the room, the like haunted room? And in theory, I was like, yeah, let's do it. And then the night before we, we got there, I started really thinking, wait, you're going to be in a like a haunted room. And I got so nervous and didn't sleep the night before. But
00:43:03
Speaker
It ended up being great. Like when we got to the hotel, there's a lot of people stay in this room. It's really sought after. There's a journal. I'm sure there are tons of journals that have filled up over the years, but there's a journal there where you can write an entry to Grand Parsons Ghost. We were reading these journal entries and they were all so positive. A lot of the everyone is just very
00:43:25
Speaker
supporting of his spirit, you know, going to bed that night, I felt like very at peace and I didn't feel nervous about it at all. But I did wake up, I woke up from a sound sleep in the middle of the night and like, I swear I saw his
00:43:40
Speaker
figure. It was, of course, it was dark, but I swear I saw it, but I definitely felt it, like hair standing up on the back of your neck, like goosebumps, woke up from a sound sleep. So he was there. I felt it. And he's not a malevolent spirit at all. But it was just very cool to stay in that room too. Like the original mirror is there from the night he died. I know it's like that part.
00:44:09
Speaker
It's cool. It's cool. Yeah, I highly recommend the Joshua Tree and you don't have to stay in the haunted room, but it's very fun. It's a very fun spot. I'm obsessed with Joshua Tree in general. I love it. No wonder if I was a ghost, I'd probably want to be in Joshua Tree, I think.
00:44:27
Speaker
But wait, so you wake up and you feel it and you maybe see a dark presence, but say more. What did you see? I thought I saw a face. We're in the corner. Yeah. I thought I saw a face in the corner. The spirit, like the force of his spirit just pulled me up. Oh my God. And yeah. Hey, could you write something for me? I know.
00:44:56
Speaker
Wow. Talk about ghostwriting. No, it was great. Like leaving that trip, we listened to the Flying Burrito Brothers in his honor. And I'm just very thankful for the gift of Graham Parsons' music and appreciate that he watched over me that night while I slept. Interesting.
00:45:16
Speaker
love that story. Thank you for sharing it. Can I tell you about a recent encounter I had? Yes. Oh my God, please. It could be all in my head. This actually starts off, there are some weird things happening in our building in the apartment that Matt and I lived in Cambridge before we bought this place. Oh, I believe that. Actually, one of our neighbors died under mysterious circumstances, which was this whole thing and very sad
00:45:45
Speaker
and then a month later I was in the basement and I was doing like laundry and I was like taking stuff out of the dryer or putting stuff into the dryer and I felt this like weird like almost a whoosh and then I heard something say to me get out and I like ran upstairs but I still think I'm like number one there are funny acoustics because there's like a backyard area so if people were out there talking coming through the windows
00:46:13
Speaker
And then two, I also believe in the idea that sometimes what we think is like a ghostly thing is more of just like a strong manifestation of our own internal, like maybe intuition or feelings. And I was, we were really like, we, we picked up and stopped and started again, like house hunting. And I was in a spot where I was like, I really think we need to buy a place within the next few months. Like logistically, there was just like a bunch of things that needed to happen.
00:46:39
Speaker
So I feel, I don't know, but it was a weird moment for sure. I am, I don't have any hot takes on it. It's less, yours is more, yours is way, yours is great. That's like the best story I've ever heard. That's great. No, but maybe your ghost was just trying to help you manifest moving. I think it might've been. Get out of this building. And timing worked out for so many things.
00:47:03
Speaker
So anyway, anything that you think I should have asked about ghostwriting, like if someone's listening, they're interested in ghostwriting, they want to get better at it. Anything you'd like to say before we wrap up? I just think for anyone who's interested in ghostwriting,
00:47:21
Speaker
Maybe it's not even anything they have to do aside from, I like going back and looking at my favorite media through like different lenses. If you were interested in ghostwriting and you wanted to understand what you would need to notice about people to communicate for them, maybe go back and watch some of your favorite TV shows and look at some of your favorite characters and be like, okay, what are the things or aspects about this character?
00:47:49
Speaker
about their communication style and if like they were my subject and I was writing for them like how would I do that based off of how they're like the clues that they're giving me through their performances in this TV show. That's something that like now I'm just starting to do.
00:48:09
Speaker
So yeah, we'll go back to Mad Men and watch Don Draper and be like, okay, how do I write for Don Draper in terms of how he wants to present himself versus how he actually is too? That's another thing. Oh, interesting. That's so interesting. All right. Well, Kels, thank you so much for doing this. This was really fun and I appreciate it and so grateful. Thank you. I've had the best time.
00:48:40
Speaker
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00:48:57
Speaker
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00:49:24
Speaker
Request a guest or a topic. Put yourself to be on the show. Advertise with us. Learn more about Medberry social media or otherwise just be in touch. Shoot me an email. I would love to hear from you. It's Meredith at medberryagency.com. That's M-E-D-B-U-R-Y agency.com. I will throw that in the show notes too. All right, until next time.