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S3E15 Liam Carnahan
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Transcript
Introduction and Creative Space
00:00:00
Speaker
but All right, we're going. OK. Can you say something, Liam? Yes, hello. Oh, hey. Hi, can you hear me? Does that sound all right? It looks like so. Do I need to talk louder? No. OK. OK. It's.
00:00:17
Speaker
Yes, perfect. Put that in. Liam, thank you for having me, having us. I'm and' so happy to have you here. Welcome to my little space. I know. so Liam has been on the show before and I'll put in the show notes and all the promo his first episode, but let's set the scene of where we are. We're in your very special little writing space. We're going to talk a lot about creativity today. Well, this is my writing space. As you said this, I used to call it my home office.
00:00:51
Speaker
And that's why I live with a friend in outside of Austin and I have the out upstairs apartment to myself. And it has this little room in here with a very cute little low ceiling. And I just very desk in the chair in here. When I first moved in about a year ago and I would just come in here and do my work. And then toward the end of last year, I started to shift my perspective and think more about creativity and put creativity more on the front burner rather than the back burner. And that was when I decided that this room was not cutting it for a creative person. So I set myself a budget of $200, I think. And I thought, I'm going to make this room a cute and cozy place to write. And so we're like 90% of the way there. I still have a few things I want to change.
00:01:40
Speaker
But as you can see, I hung up some art from my friends that people have sent me. I put fairy lights everywhere, these little twinkling lights. I hung up some photos of people that matter to me. I got myself a new standing desk and a new keyboard. and made it smell good, made it warm with a heater, just made it a place where rather than it was the space where I did my work, it's now like my favorite room in the house and the place that I look forward to going to do my creative work as well.
Creativity vs. Financial Pressure
00:02:12
Speaker
And it's just a much happier place. I love it. It's so cozy. I feel like this a room is the apex of so much that we want to talk about today because we want to talk about
00:02:24
Speaker
creativity and you've always been a creative person, but you've worked in marketing for a long time. And I feel like you're in a space in your life right now where you are digging deep into who you are as a creative person and really nurturing that and exploring that. I actually want to come back to the idea of like how spaces are sometimes manifestations of how we're feeling inside. But before we keep going, why don't you just like intro yourself? I should have done this earlier, probably. but Just for folks who didn't listen to the first step, who are you and what do you do? Sure. i'm I'm going to give a different introduction this time because my priorities have shifted. So i my name is Liam Carnahan. I am a creative writer. I'm a memoirist and I work in content marketing as well. I've got a few different connections to the written word. It's my main gig in a number of different ways.
00:03:12
Speaker
I have been your friend for almost 20 years. and Meredith it was my very first boss and my very first big boy job a time ago. So actually, you're part of the reason that I'm in this career path at all is because the job that we got together at a marketing agency, I took that job on because I was fresh out of college. had a literature degree and really wanted to be paid to write. And this was 2008, good luck. And the job that we ah ended up working at together was one of the few jobs that was paying writers out there. So I never intended to get into content marketing or SEO or even marketing at all. But once I found out that there were jobs for writers, I stuck with it. And so here I am almost 20 years later still doing that work.
00:03:56
Speaker
But as you've said in the last year or so, I've really shifted my priorities. I've stopped thinking of what I do as how I make money and actually thinking of what I do as what am I doing to fulfill myself and to make my life enjoyable, whether or not it makes me money. So I don't introduce myself as a content marketer anymore. That comes at the second half of my introduction. I really like that. I think for you and I both now stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but I think we're both at a spot where we, we're both very concerned with making a lot of money for a while, for better, for worse. And then we both still want money in abundance in our lives. We're trying to shift into that, you said it better than I'm about to say it, I feel like, but the idea of like, how does what I do support my creativity and. Yeah. For our first job, it wasn't just making money. It was like surviving. but We had a stipend. We were paid just enough.
00:04:51
Speaker
to keep working 12 hours a day and keep feeding ourselves to show up and write more. I don't know how we did it. And then you that was the case so for me for a long time. It got better, but for the first decade of my career, it was living paycheck to paycheck and working really hard. And I just realized, I just knew that wasn't what I wanted or what I intended, but it also felt like a trap. Like how could I not? Yeah. How could I stop? When you're living paycheck to paycheck, Literally all you can think about is like, how can I get more money? yeah You're not sitting there thinking like, how can I foster the artist within me? and You're thinking like, how can I afford to eat next week or to pay my rent next month? And so for me to be able to focus more on creativity, overcoming that was part of it. Like getting to the point where I was earning enough money to be comfortable yeah and could take a deep breath. That took a long time. It took way too long. It does. It's an, I don't know, it's funny. I feel though.
00:05:49
Speaker
People don't often, we don't hear, i don't I'm trying to think. I'm like, when you're in it mentally and you're just like, first you're like, I need to make more money to continue to survive. Then you're just maybe there's some blinders on, I'm making this much, but I think I should be making this much. And then you're just on a like, how can I increase my earnings? I thinkm edit that shit i think what happens when you are focused on trying to live. And trying to earn enough, you're totally right that there's like this fictional day or there was this like fictional day in my mind when I was like, that will be the day when I have enough money that I can stop working or stop worrying about work and I can focus on XYZ, my creativity.
Morning Pages and Mental Clarity
00:06:30
Speaker
And then you move the goalposts on yourself. Like for me, it was originally like once I earned 75K.
00:06:36
Speaker
Okay, once I go freelance, then I'll do it. Once I'm earning $100,000 as a freelancer, then I'll do it. And then I reached that point and I still didn't do it. And it's because there never is a day, I don't know, I'm sure there are some people who they make a ton of money suddenly and then they're like, that's it. yeah But for most people, it's going to be like a slow creep up on income and I don't know. I think people make excuses to talk. I certainly did it by myself. You make an excuse to talk yourself out of doing creative things. yeah And one of the best ways to talk yourself out of being creative is to tell you that money's a problem. That I can't do that because of money. And there's like a whole bundle of negative thoughts around money money and creativity.
00:07:18
Speaker
I don't know. I just realized like that special day where I'm going to earn enough to be a creative person wasn't going to come until I was like, it's here. It's happening now. If I kept waiting for it, it would never have arrived. Yeah. I want to talk about morning pages and I want to talk about Julia Cameron's guidance in general. So you and I both do morning pages. I've done it like for stretches in and out of my life, but your dedication to it right now re-inspired me to like super commit to it. Can you talk a little bit about what morning pages are and your practice there? And then I want to jump into guidance. Yeah. So for me, I was in this really bad rut in 2023, in the middle of 2023. I just, my career was stagnating. I just was feeling bummed and I didn't know why.
00:08:08
Speaker
And at that point, one of my friends said, I went on a little trip with a friend and she said she was doing the the artist's way by Julia Cameron. And I'd never heard of that before. I'm sure a lot of people listen to this are like, I know that. And I've done that. And like some people are like, what is that? It seems to be one or the other. Like people have either never heard of it or they did it already, but I was new to me. And so it was perfect timing. I really needed it at that moment. I picked it up. And the first thing this book is, it's a guide to help you become a more creative person to unlock your inner artist and to just live a more creative life, which is exactly what I wanted to do. And there's a whole thing, a whole bunch of things in Julia Cameron's book that that really were effective for me, but Morning Pages is yeah the backbone of it. And essentially she says one of the best ways to foster creativity in yourself is to do Morning Pages, which is every morning, ideally the first thing you do, though I always have coffee,
00:09:06
Speaker
before mine or with mine, you just write out three pages by hand. And it sounds like very simple and and it really actually is as simple as it sounds. There's no like prompt. There's no way that you need to do it. There's no structure to it. It's the way you sit down and you start writing yeah and you write whatever's on your mind. And if you can't think of anything to write, you just write the words. I can't think of anything to write over and over until you write something else. And so you fill three pages and The idea behind the morning pages, from what I'm getting out of it anyway, is that your brain is so active and so full of thought and so full of negative thoughts a lot of the time. And yeah and and those negative thoughts are going to be there. They're going to all have to deal with.
00:09:51
Speaker
And if you don't give them a space, they're going to be with you all day, like a little nasty pet. And the morning pages is, I've given you little voice in my head that's so negative. I've given you these three pages, these three blank pages to get it all out. Let it all out. What are you worried about? What are you upset about? What's frustrating you? What's annoying you? And sometimes it's really petty stuff. Like I'm hungry and I know what I want for breakfast and I'm annoyed that I'm out of yogurt. Like literally you sound like if you read them over, you sound very whiny or I do anyway. But it actually, the number of times where I've been sitting and writing these pages and found myself stumbling upon thoughts that were buried or that I haven't accessed before or realizations about what I needed to do. It's amazing to me. It's almost every morning.
00:10:40
Speaker
where something I write in those three pages will be illuminating and will help me set an intention for the day that's a lot more positive. If I don't do my morning pages, I find I just carry these negative thoughts around with me and they bug me all day. Okay. I'm happy. Thank you for that. It's one thing that I wanted to ask you about, which I feel you're answering is that I feel like I wake up with a lot of negative thoughts. Like I wake up, Generally, I would say in a state of like nervous system agitation, like I have a lot of fight or flight, like my heart will be pounding, even little admin tasks. Like for example, this morning I needed to buy tickets to a family wedding in New Orleans. And just the idea that like I had to do that and then I had to coordinate with relatives around the time and I didn't know how much they were going to be and I should have bought them earlier. Like it really, it can.
00:11:36
Speaker
my I feel like the first couple hours of my day are full of these negative thoughts and something with morning pages that I don't think I thought of them as intentionally as you are as a space to get them out. And I feel like a bit of resistance I feel to them sometimes is it's just going to be me writing negative shit down. But you framing it that way is like, yeah, it's the space you need to give the space for the negative thoughts so that you can then go on with your day a little bit is really helpful. And I'm happy you said it too, because I've wondered, I haven't asked too many people like, what are your morning pages? What's the vibe? But you saying that yours tend to be maybe like, anxious, complaining, negative, makes me feel a lot better. Yeah. I i wish I had my copy of The Artist's Way to lend you. and When was the last time you did the original artist's way?
00:12:25
Speaker
probably five or six years ago. Does she get into that? Should I go back? Oh yeah. Like the whole introduction to morning pages from her is about you're going to sound whiny, it's going to sound petty, but that is the whole point is to get those thoughts because they're going to be there and it's your choice whether you want to keep them in your head or put them on paper. Yeah, interesting. I do think you've hit on something that a lot of people feel like If I write them down, then and it's real. and then Or there's something solidifying about writing something down. You're like putting it on paper and yeah it can feel like I'm just being so complaining and I'm a whiny person by writing all of this stuff. You have to change your mindset and be like, it's not I'm not solidifying these things. I'm not willing them to be. I'm not manifesting these negative things. I'm getting them out of the way. Yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker
And I was thinking about this today, like part of one of the things I'm working on is trying to be on my phone less often and just generally because. You know, what I i was thinking, like I started sleeping with my phone in a different room. I don't look at my phone at before bed. And I usually will get on it in the morning. I like to do the New York Times crossword and everything, but I'm making a new rule or trying to where I don't look at it before my morning pages. Because I also find that if I go on TikTok or Reddit or Instagram or something, suddenly those thoughts are going to be the first ones I see in my morning page. yeah And so now my morning pages have to do the work of clearing out that annoying thing I heard on and TikTok.
00:13:52
Speaker
and then clearing out my own annoying stuff. And Julia Cameron actually refers to like the page and a half moment where you get about a page and a half into your morning pages. And that's when you've finally gotten all the negative stuff out of the way that you can actually start finding really valuable thoughts. And it's really true. And that's why sometimes the three pages, it seems like ah it's an arbitrary number. Why it's really true. That's about the, for me anyway, that's about the amount of space I need to get all of those thoughts out of the way. And then the really good stuff starts showing.
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah. No, I totally, I hear you on the phone things. I've got an app going right now where I can't get onto any new sites or social media from my phone. What app? It's called site blocker. Yeah. I need to use that. I've heard Opal is better okay because with site blocker, I think there's only a certain number you can block for the free, which is what I have. But then also you could just go into the app and toggle it off. If you're really like, you're really Jones in that Opal. Lisa Belmonte, who's on this podcast used it and she said it was the best because there's no out. Like you pay them 50 bucks a month. There's something pretty expensive to give you no way to turn off
Technology's Impact on Creativity
00:15:08
Speaker
these settings. Yeah. Cause I have the, I put limits on my own, yeah but it's very easy to just stop another 15 minutes, please. yeah And then the next thing you know, within an hour.
00:15:17
Speaker
My room and I rose, we're actually talking about getting a landmine in this house. And I have, we have another friend, my roommate's partner who just got a flip phone and is now only used with their iPhone, like on wifi when they really have to, wow which has been extreme measure. But we were talking about getting a landline here and then just letting everyone in our life know that call us on the landline. call me on the land line and you can even forward your phone numbers to a land line so that if people did try to call me. wow And then having a rule that when you walk in the house, like you turn off your phone and you put it on in a box by the door. I love that. Because it is just one of those things where part of the artist's way as well, ah there's a week each week you have different tasks. And one week, the week that everybody complains about is the week where you do a total media deprivation, which back when she wrote the book in the 70s meant no TV or radio. Now it means, I think,
00:16:06
Speaker
No TV, no radio, no phone, no computer, no books even. You're not supposed to read anything. And it's like a real emptying out of the brain. It was like the most painful week of my life. I want to ask about that. um But actually, before I do, I want to double click a little on something you were talking about earlier with the negative. And like, I think that what maybe it's in that OG book, but something you said that kind of just unlocked it for me now is that I don't think my thoughts when I write them are like petty or complaining. I think they're there's deep sadness and shame. um And that can feel heavy and it can feel confusing as to do, is this something I need to do every morning? Is this like tending to my well of sadness? I need to write these pages. Or do I need to come from a more positive place? And actually from what you said, I actually feel so much better at being like, whatever's there, it's better to let it out.
00:17:04
Speaker
and if it's negative, but it's gonna help me in some way. I just really liked the way you said it, it unlocked it for me in a way that other it hadn't with other people before. Yeah, I suppose there may be people who find, and actually I have heard of people saying this, that they end up using their, so I think we all have this, it's not my theory, but we all have a voice inside of us who's really negative, who's there to protect us in a lot of ways. yeah They're there to stop us from making rash or dangerous decisions. But the voice gets in the way of everything. And I think some people might find that the morning pages maybe gives that inner voice a little too much space or it it causes it to dwell. But for me, it doesn't. It's the opposite. I'm glad I put that down. And also.
00:17:53
Speaker
something about the act of writing by hand and like the slowness of it because I'm a very fast typer not to brag but very fast typer my fingers can type faster than I can think but I cannot write faster than I can think yeah and so when I'm writing by hand it really I'll find myself making a complaint And then I will find myself immediately responding to that complaint. So I may, the thing might be like, I'm really annoyed that I don't have any yogurt today.
Navigating Self-Criticism and Negative Thoughts
00:18:22
Speaker
And I should have gone and got yoga yesterday when I was like.
00:18:25
Speaker
I didn't do it and then the next sentence will be like yesterday was a really hard day emotionally and that's why I didn't have time to go out and get the yogurt and so I find myself like not talking back because that sounds so negative but like it's like that little angry voice is yeah I'm soothing it at the same time I'm saying I hear you I hear what you're upset about And let's look a little bit deeper at why you're upset about this. What is the real reason you're upset? And usually I can find the reason is for something completely explainable. And it's a matter of, and then the more you acknowledge that, the easier it is to deal with in the future. No, I really like that. I also think too, they can be, I feel like her, it's also, you know, it's about, and it sounds to me like it's very intuitive, what comes up for your like, I'm angry about the yogurt. And then just as intuitively you're like,
00:19:13
Speaker
Yesterday was hard. Like there's a read, but so I don't mean to like over engineer the pages, but I have found two at times where I'm just going to write about what if today or this thing I'm worried about goes the best it could possibly go. Give myself like a little positive flight of fancy. Now. I don't know if that is too, whatever. I think that's a wonderful idea. And I do the same kind of a thing. I'll also like the more you do this practice, it's. I now have little tricks when I'm like, Oh God, I'm only a page and and I'm out of things to say. yeah I have little things that I'm like, let's set some intentions for the day. yeah Here's what I know about my schedule. I hope that client call ends up with them not as upset as I think they are. Or I hope that when Meredith, I actually wrote this today, when Meredith comes over later, I hope that our conversation goes really well. I hope that we have a really enjoyable conversation that her audience really likes.
00:20:06
Speaker
And that took up three pages. And to me, yeah I was just trying to fill the the pages, but I set an intention for this. I've yeah put myself in a better room headspace. Whereas if I had them in morning pages, I might've been anxious about this all day. I might've not sat down and put that positivity toward this meeting. yeah I'm just glad that I have the morning pages to give me a chance to do that kind of thing. Same. Yesterday I sent an intention about this conversation. Okay. So we got double intentions happening. Well, now we'll know. yeah If people like it, then we know this works. If they don't like it, then we know it's a waste of time. married and liam have declared the artist wear stop time wait I double clicked on something, but you were going to go down another interesting path before I did that. Yeah. We were talking about getting away from technology and how, and it does tie into what we're talking about because I was saying, you know, technology just puts thoughts in your head. Even if you're mindlessly scrolling and it feels mindless, yeah you are getting influenced by everything that you see, every ad that you see, every post, every video commentary. And you carry those thoughts with you all day too.
00:21:13
Speaker
And so I find that uploading those kinds of thoughts to myself. So during the artist way, you take this, you take a long media break and it was so hard. It's a whole week. I'm the kind of person who I'm always reading like three books at a time. I even had to email my clients before the week and be like, I'm not going to be around as much because I can't really be on my computer
Media Deprivation and Creativity
00:21:34
Speaker
very much. I made some exceptions. Don't listen, Julia. But like I did email my clients every once in a while. But the most, but I didn't, I was so bored. And I think that's part of the point is that boredom breeds creativity. yeah It really forced me and you just, it's so easy when you're like,
00:21:51
Speaker
I'm done with work and now I can go lay down and scroll on my phone or I can go absorb myself into a video game. With those options taken away it was interesting to see what I did with my time. A lot of it was like literally staring out my window, like just staring out my window and thinking and meditating. So the week I learned how to cross stitch, which is something I'm still doing, it was when I started to redegorate this room. Really? Yeah, because I was like so bored. And I was like, what can I literally do right now? I have nothing to do. I thought, well, I could just go look at that room and think about redesigning it. The next thing I know, I had a whole plan going. Wow. So and after that week, I really cut down. That's when I started putting limits on all of my technology. And I just don't look at my phone before bed. And you hear that kind of advice from a million different people. And I always wrote it off as like a
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm not a teen addicted to my phone. Yes, I was. Yes, I am not a teen, but I was and still am fully addicted to my phone. And it gets in the way it just, I don't know, your human brain has a limited capacity for thought. And if you want it to be full of the rich kind they' are kind of rich thoughts that make life worth living, you can't For me, I can't be filling it with outside influences all the time. And I can't carry these negative thoughts around with me all day. I have to get all of them out yeah so I can make space for the thoughts that matter. Yeah. No, I think I really agree. I have found that my, I'm feel like I'm a clear thinker when I'm not on social apps at all.
00:23:26
Speaker
or and just like when the phone is not, there's something so shitty about how it feels disgusting when you're like, I'm being drawn to this. I don't want to go on it. And yet you're pulled into like reels, TikToks, even like just navigating to the New York Times 30 times a day for no reason. Like I've read the stories. Why am I still blessed with what might be happening? I don't even care. Yeah, I do care about things. Yeah. And it's even when you're like, Oh, I need to check my calendar on my phone to like, just see what time that meeting is. And then the next thing you know, and yeah you're like 10 Instagram. You're like, what, how did I get here? yeah And it's not an accident. They're designed to do that. Like these apps are truly designed to do that to us. And I think of it as empowering to be like, you're not going to get me, Mark Zuckerberg. Like I'm going to get away from you because I don't want you to take up my thought capacity. Yes. I think that.
00:24:19
Speaker
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about so in the artist way she Julia mentions guidance, which is something you and I have both been like thinking about talking about working with quite a bit. But she devoted a whole book to it recently, which you gave me for my birthday, and it was an incredible gift. i like I know you read a chapter a day every morning. So could you maybe express how you've interpreted guidance as Julia talks about it and how it's something that you're working with in your own life? Guidance, as she puts it, is
00:24:56
Speaker
not terribly different from morning pages. It's a method of seeking guidance on a specific topic. yeah So whereas we were talking about morning pages as being a very free flowing kind of stream of consciousness, just get the thoughts out. When Julia Cameron talks about guidance, she's talking about approaching it, approaching a specific problem or question and asking for help with that. And who are we asking? I think the jury's out on that yeah so she says you should be seeking when I say we're going to ask for guidance what does that mean and this is where I sometimes still have trouble with this it's a kind of a woo idea but we're really asking the universe for guidance and to me it's a bit of
00:25:45
Speaker
I don't know what the line, what the difference is between these two things but we're asking the larger universe for guidance and also asking ourselves internally. yeah So many decisions we make are based on emotion or just simplicity or the path of least resistance or you might have a question that's just tearing you up inside forever because you are afraid to look at it directly or it's painful to look at directly. So Julia Cameron is a huge advocate of writing for guidance, which is similar. I have a separate notebook that's on the other side of my chair where you write the question and then you just let the pen answer. But I also, she recommends this in her book, Walking for Guidance has been a huge thing for me. She says everyone should be taking at least two, I think, 20 minute walks a week with no headphones, no dog, no anything. Just how they're a raw dog in the world. Yeah.
00:26:40
Speaker
And it is wild. and And so I do this now because it's actually about a 25 minute walk from here to the T, the train. And so I will often go outside and I get out on my front porch. And then I think the question I'm going to answer is blank. Yeah. And then I will walk on it. Yeah. And I find without any other distractions and something about the movement of your body or the movement of the pen, an answer often does reveal itself. Even if, no, it's the answer I want. It's like an answer, which is better than I hate not knowing things. So that's to me what guidance is. I don't know. What do you think? I think similar to you, like I i think she in the book on guidance, which is what's it called exactly? It's right here. the Living the artist's way and intuitive path to greater creativity. And the focus of this one is guidance. That's the title, right? Yeah. yeah And she, so I know she interviews people in her life who
00:27:40
Speaker
have a relationship with guidance and a lot of them seem to do morning pages first and then write to guidance, ask a question and it sounds like what you do or just hold the idea ahead of a walk or an activity where maybe you'll get into flow state. I think i've I've been doing all of those things. And also sometimes throughout the day, just if I feel just uncomfortably unsure about something, I'll just ask, I suppose it's like praying. It's a version of a prayer where I'm just like guidance, like, what should I do? Can you help me? And then try and just be like mindful of any info or synchronicities or hints that I think it's sending
Inner Guidance and Creative Decisions
00:28:21
Speaker
me toward. I think I like writing best and I like holding the idea before a walk best. And for me, maybe similar to you, I think we all have a deep bench of, I don't know,
00:28:34
Speaker
guides ah around like energies guiding energies around us and within us and I think it's nice to just see if there's I don't know it's nice to maybe acknowledge that even if it's just a wise part of our unconscious that's speaking up and saying hey this is what this is the issue this is what you can do about it Or maybe it's a force more without us. Like who can say it's a mystery, but I like the idea of holding space for those mysteries and just asking for help when we need help. And it's been helpful to me for sure. Calming as well too, to feel like there's, we're so small and we don't know that. Like we have such limited understanding as humans of what's going on sometimes to just be able to say, help me, figure out and and to feel like there's maybe something positive out there supporting us. I find to be very helpful.
00:29:22
Speaker
and very connected to creativity too. Like I believe in the muse for sure. And the idea of like energies out there that want to get creative and be expressed through people. And I feel like the muse is a bit of guidance as well too. Yeah. I, I'm, I think you're right. It can be very calming. And when you were saying that I was also thinking for me, it often feels very empowering, like, Even though i do have I have a very negative voice all the time i mean like i've got and been practicing listening to that voice and or not listening to it or recognizing it anyway. What I find with guidance though when I set the intention is that the answer that I hear is usually much sweeter, calmer, and gentler than the one that I hear that's negative. so
00:30:10
Speaker
I may, like, let's say for example, we'll just use my memoir for example, I'm struggling to figure out what chapter I should write next. And I might be thinking, this whole thing is just not gonna work. Like, I can't figure out what chapter I should just probably stop. Stop trying to write this memoir. And that is my negative voice trying to talk me out of it. When I, but, and that's just me, the thought rattling around my head. If I stop and I say, I'm now going to ask for guidance and I'm going to ask the universe or whoever to just answer this question for me. What should I write about next?
00:30:44
Speaker
yeah The answer that comes back is not the same as the negative voice. The answer that comes back is you need to to rest and think before you're ready to write. Or you've done so much good work already, it's time to so stop. Or write about X topic because it's been right on your mind anyway. yeah The voice is somehow just much more accepting and gentle with me yeah than the one that I have when I don't seek guidance. When I don't seek guidance, the negativity just takes over. Yeah. No, I found a similar, I feel like my guidance is more positive. It's more, it's like a gentle parent who's there to advise and give help. Yeah. And I don't know if that's just a mindset thing, but I'm like picturing it as some sort of bigger power or some more peaceful benevolent power, or whether that really is the case, that whatever is answering me back, I don't really care whether it's like,
00:31:42
Speaker
God or the universe or just myself. yeah It has helped me. So who cares who it actually is. Yeah. So I do want to talk about your memoir a little bit. your What inspired you to start writing a memoir, your what your process has been. And I know we've talked about it, but like my hope is maybe as you like keep working through this really cool project over the next year or so that we can do little check-in conversations. And as I was thinking about it, There are a lot of founders that we talk to on this podcast and sometimes they're very vulnerable about like, it's is the first year of this and it's rough. But and not to say you need to be overly like vulnerable, but I'm grateful for the opportunity to be talking to you while you're in the midst of kind of an important personal, but big creative project.
00:32:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's a huge project. It's the most serious I've ever been about a creative project probably my entire life. I did go to school for creative writing and I had a fiction degree or fiction focus, I should say, for most of my life. And we were talking about this, but I just talked to myself. After I graduated, I really wanted to be a paid writer and then I started writing so much for work. And a lot of the work, that especially when we were young, that I was trying to help was not creative at all, right? it's Like the opposite of creative. And it was really rigid down to what other people wanted. And I just convinced myself that I shouldn't be a creative writer, that I couldn't be a creative writer, that there was no way to ever make a living as a creative writer, that ah I was too burnt out to do creative writing.
Overcoming Societal Pressures
00:33:18
Speaker
And I really felt that way from for the last like 15, 20 years, which makes me sad when I think about that.
00:33:24
Speaker
And then along with the artist's way and just a lot of personal realization. And I think what you were saying is I started to feel like I actually really need to get this story out of me. yeah is i So my memoir is about 2020 only and the year that was 2020 for me, which as was a really bad year. I was in a domestic abusive relationship and then my mom died in a car accident. Not to mention this little pandemic that was happening. It was a really bad year and I just started to feel like I can't just sit on this year anymore like we were saying with a negative voice. I was just constantly thinking about my grief and my pain and my confusion about all these things that happened and I have always been someone for whom writing is therapeutic.
00:34:11
Speaker
and that writing allows me to untangle things. And so I decided what if, and I had practiced telling my story to people over and I found that it was as horrible as it is, a very interesting story. The things that happened to me were really out of this world. And I just thought, this is a story worth telling and I have the desire to tell it. And I'm not gonna kid myself into thinking I can't anymore. I have made a career off of writing. And every time I show my writing, of course my brain was like, you'll never pull this off. It's going to be so hard. You're going to fail. You're going to humiliate yourself. I had to really say to that voice, no, evidence proves that I'm actually a very good writer. And like I have been doing it as a career for 20 years. You don't do that unless you're actually a good writer. I do have a good story. I do have something worth saying. And even if it doesn't sell, who cares? It's for me. And that
00:35:09
Speaker
changed my ability and now my memoir is my number one focus. Whereas but it was always a pipe dream and now it's the thing I think about when I wake up and the thing about I think about when I go to bed. Have you read Steven Pressfield at all? He wrote War of Art. I haven't read War of Art but I get his emails. They're like so inspiring. They are. I feel like you would love War of Art because and maybe he talks about this in his other works too. I've only read that one and then Government Cheese which is his memoir. But in War of Art, he talks about the idea of resistance, which I'm sure he emails his kindness and he was this idea that I love his take on resistance, which is that there's this almost like malevolent other force in the world trying to keep art down. Like it's if the muse is the angel, the the devil is resistance. so And he talks about it, like it's negative self-talk. It's like what you were talking about before of like feeling like, I can't do it. I'll mess it up. I'm not good enough actually.
00:36:07
Speaker
or the other people who are published, those are actually good writers. Like I couldn't possibly find my way through this project. And also too, just like a negative force in like in general, negative self-talk that writers need or artists of any kind need to find some way to get through. But he also sometimes I think talks about it being almost in proportion to the force of the work. So if it's a work that's really going to be like meaningful for you and like really do something I don't even mean commercially necessarily just like it's going to be something that almost resistance like ratchets up the and it's I always think of you as truly one of the most talented writers I know and to hear even you say that you could
00:36:53
Speaker
put off a project because you feel like I might not be good enough. It's okay. Nobody thinks they're good enough, even the people who are great. So discard the thought. Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's not a single author on this planet or writer or artist or painter who has felt like they're as good as they are. Yeah. And I think, yeah, that resistance idea is a huge one. And I think there's a few reasons for that kind of resistance. Julia Cameron has this lovely metaphor about thinking back to when we were cave people and the idea of something new and unfamiliar is truly dangerous. If you imagine going into a field that you've never been in before, that field could very well be full of snakes or spiders or whatever. And so it makes sense for your brain to be like, don't go in there. Let's go to the field that we've gone to a million times that we know is safe.
00:37:43
Speaker
And there's this kind of lizard brain that's talking you out of anything different or unusual. Because when we were apes, it made sense to be afraid of things. It's what kept us alive. But you can't tell your brain, I want them more safe. It's okay. yeah You can. You just have to work really hard. And the other thing is we get these messages from society and from our family. And I had to do a lot of thinking about who was it who told me that if I tried to be creative, I would go hungry. Where did that thought come from? And I had to trace it back. Some of it came from my parents, not, and not, I'm not saying that my parents were the kind of parents who were like against my creativity, quite the opposite. They really encouraged my creativity. But when I said, I want to be a creative writer.
00:38:31
Speaker
they naturally were like, you're not going to make any money doing that. You've got to have a backup plan, which is a totally normal thing for parents to say. But my teenage brain internalized that as creativity equals starvation. And if I try to be creative, I will starve. yeah And it's amazing how your brain will internalize those things and then hold on to them forever. and And then society, you're talking about this malevolent force yeah that tries to they quash creativity. I've heard about this on LinkedIn today. To me, that is capitalism in a lot of ways because I started to sound like a commie at some point, but when you are living in a society where everything is commodified and everything is monetized.
00:39:13
Speaker
And all value is derived from wealth. like there's That is what our society says, that wealth is what's valuable, and if it doesn't make money, it's not valuable. So what where does so it does not serve capitalism to foster creativity. We do not need artists in order to keep Amazon going, or at least that's how people like Jeff Bezos think. And so that is a really pervasive thought that like our society devalues creatives naturally. And you see this play out at work. People don't want to pay copywriters. They don't want to pay graphic designers. They think that if you're a graphic designer, you're doing art, you should enjoy the art. You don't need to be paid well.
00:39:55
Speaker
And that is such a lie that I bought into, that I'm an artist and I bought into that lie.
Creating Supportive Structures
00:40:02
Speaker
And so a lot of this work that I've been doing has been talking, like figuring out why do I feel that way? And then saying finding ways to convince myself that it's not it's not true, that I can be creative and not go hungry. I haven't starved yet anyway. Yeah. So what are like what are your practices? You've been very prolific and very consistent about writing and editing. your memoir and I know you've applied to programs, you've been doing a class, like you set up a lot of structures it seems to like, and even routines to give yourself some like support to keep going. Could you talk a little bit about how you're like practically? So I suppose I'm thinking of maybe morning pages asking for guidance as some of the more like energetic ways you're nurturing this project, but like even in a more practical way, how are you making sure that
00:40:54
Speaker
these negative thoughts are not winning. The space we're in is a huge part of it. As we've already talked about, like I needed my space to match my intention. yeah My intention was to be a creative writer and my space was a great space for a freelancer. It's not a good space for a creative writer. I didn't have weird little pictures or things to distract me or a comfortable chair to sit in while you did. yeah Like, and meditating is a huge part of writing. I have to be able to sit and think. And so just getting my space aligned so that I looked forward to writing time was really huge. And you mentioned programs. So I want to give a shout out to Grub Street here in Boston. It's a nonprofit writing center. Having a community of writers, a lot of times thinking about creative writing, it's such a solitary act. Every page I've written, I've done it alone.
00:41:46
Speaker
And that can be a really good place for those negative thoughts to crop up when you're alone all the time. Having, I took these two classes at Grub Street that were about the craft of memoir and all of that, but also it was a community-based workshopping kind of thing. And then after one of them ended, I continued to workshop with a bunch of the other students. And I love it so much. I feel so connected to them, but also the accountability of it all is so huge. Knowing that I have to show up next week with 10 new pages or else the money that I spend on this class is going to go to waste. That's huge. Or even applying, I applied for an a year long intensive program for my memoir. And even if I don't get in, the act of assembling a hundred page sample for them was such a huge push.
00:42:32
Speaker
So having other people who are not only there to hold me accountable, but also there to give me encouragement. Yes, we do give each other real true feedback. We tell each other what needs to be improved, but we also just having people be like, I want to read more. I really like this. Keep going. Or you did this part. i Just hearing people say, I get what you're doing here. I understand what you're trying to say is so validating when art happens in such a vacuum. So much of it. And then I've also read the last thing I'll mention is I've just changed my schedule. I'm a freelancer. I'm quite fortunate that I have a lot of control over my schedule. And I found that, and this was one of the truths I had about it was that sometimes when I'm focused on clients, when I'm focused on work, paid work, it, I can't just switch over to creativity, right? It puts me in a certain mindset. And so I've started to separate these into different days. So now I have Monday, Tuesday, those are client days. I get all my client work done.
00:43:30
Speaker
I communicate with all my clients on Monday and Tuesday. I don't even worry about creative work. If I want to, sure. But Monday and Tuesday, it's just about clients. That frees me up Wednesday, Thursday, Friday to focus exclusively on creativity. And when I wake up on Wednesday morning, I'm in the best mood because I'm excited to be creative. I'm excited that my work is behind me and I can, I do my morning pages knowing that today's going to be a creative day. We're going to work on something and having that boundary and separating the two has made it much, much easier for me to write lucratively. Yeah, but now I appreciate all of that and I do really like this space. I know earlier I mentioned I want to chat a little bit about how I feel like sometimes the way we set up our physical spaces can be a manifestation of how we're feeling inside and like
00:44:21
Speaker
the intent, like it's just such a cozy, also it's like the perfect size room. It's a little room, but it's not a tiny room. So it feels so cozy. You've got these little lights, these beautiful windows where you can see the skyline, the like soft rug, this incredible pink chair. Like it's a, it smells like this delicious amber candle. Like I love the space you've created for yourself here. Thank you so much. I love it too. It is in the perfect room. I actually don't know what you would use this room for otherwise, like maybe for a baby's nursery. But yeah, I'm lucky that it's here. I'm lucky that it's part of my rent. I also think a lot of what Julia Cameron talks about and a lot of what this room is that the idea of treating yourself is actually a huge part of creativity and it
00:45:11
Speaker
You know, we talked about morning pages. The other thing that she recommends are these things called artist dates, which is once a week you go on a date with yourself. No one else is allowed to come and it has to be purely about fun and it has to last at least an hour. And I'm actually quite bad at these. the I'm way better at my morning pages. But she talks a lot about how your artist is like a child living inside of you and children need treats. Yeah. And so all of the things in this room are little treats to myself. Like I never would have bought a $12 candle before. I would have thought that's ridiculous. So I was spending $12 on a candle. But as I was reflecting on what would make this room
00:45:52
Speaker
a better place for me to write. I was like, I would love it if it smelled good in here. yeah And if I had a little bit of a warm fire. And so suddenly that $12 candle, which I would have totally written off as pointless and you don't need a candle
Mindset, Perfectionism, and Progress
00:46:02
Speaker
to work. Now it's, I love that little candle and I'm going to get it to my second one. And these are these pieces of art here, they were rolled up and under my bed for five years. yeah And then I was like, it actually would cost me less than $20 to get them all framed and hung up. And they're so cute. And they just make the room feel more welcoming and more creative and I feel like when people walk into this room they can, even if I wasn't here, get a vibe of who I am and what matters to me. yeah And treating myself and allowing myself to enjoy these treats.
00:46:32
Speaker
I have a little sign there that said, I made these little affirmations for myself. And now this one says, being playful, gentle gentle, and loving with myself is rewarded with creativity. And I had just found that to be so true that if I allow myself to be playful and if I'm kind to myself and I don't beat myself up, The reward I get is that my artist is like a little baby. he's If you're mean to me, I'm not going to do anything. But if you give me a candle and some chocolate, then I will write a chapter for you. And that is really the relationship we have. And so that's why I hung that one up to remind myself when I'm beating myself up about, oh, this chapter is no good or it's not coming out how I wanted. I just remind myself that's not how we get creativity out, how we get creativity out is by being playful. And then I'll go do something like tinker around in my piano or go for a walk with a dog or something.
00:47:23
Speaker
um Can we read? Do you mind if I read some of the other affirmations together? Yeah, so these, just to describe them, this was another recommendation I think from Julia Cameron to print out affirmations that you write for yourself. And I wrote these and then I made AI art to go with them and then printed them out and hung them up. How did you print them out on what device? Walgreens.com. No way. And then you just go pick it up or it delivers to your door. Either one. Wow. Yeah. And it's really cheap. One is a woman ironing a brain. So you did this. yeah Yes. And it says, editing comes later.
00:47:58
Speaker
Tell me about what this one is. Yeah, that one's my favorite one actually. It's like a 1950s housewife ironing a brain and the brain is happy about it. Yeah. And the reason I chose that is because I have a problem. I think a lot of writers have this, especially with creative writing, where I start editing while I'm writing and I'm thinking, oh, that's not good enough. Nobody's going to like that. I think about my audience too much. And I ended up not writing. And so this lady here, she's my housewife. She reminds me that editing comes later and she bought my... I actually do think of editing as ironing a piece of fabric. and So you first you write everything like, well I'm going to get all this crap out of my head. And then you go back and you flatten it out. You neaten it up. You tighten things up.
00:48:43
Speaker
And I just found that I would often get into the editing space too quickly and stop myself from writing because the first draft's not supposed to be read. And so she's my little reminder of, hey, now, back up. You're not editing yet. You're just writing. Just keep writing. I like that a lot. And then this one's really reing resonating with me. I'm a skilled hiker. I do not need to see the destination to enjoy the path. i love I feel like the the second bit, yes, helpful, but the fact that it's framed by, I am a skilled hiker. It's like, I know what I'm doing. I can go through the process and enjoy it. That's very, I love that. Thank you. Yeah, that one. And the other one there, which is has a picture of a jellyfish and it says, I had permission to move at a slow pace. So those are both a response to the same issue, which is that I tend to panic
00:49:43
Speaker
and rush when I'm not sure. same do I think a lot of people resonate with this. And actually, can I read a little excerpt from um Julia Cameron? this is This is in the Living the Artist Way book, the one about guidance. And I actually bookmarked it because I knew we were going to have this conversation. And she writes, I don't know if you're here yet. I'm not. She writes, all of us at times have the illusion of control. People and events go our way and we wax victorious. But then what happens? A gear slips and we spin out of control. All efforts of ours will fail to change the day.
00:50:21
Speaker
We would do well to surrender to the flow of events, but surrender doesn't come easily. Instead, we struggle, caught in the grip of events beyond our power to change. Our beloved loves another. Our investment proves unwise. We're struck by a health crisis. An accident befalls us. All of these are beyond our control. Is there no escape? Escape lies in surrender, in going along with events as they unfold. So to me, I was, as I mentioned, I was having this moment when I first read this, when when I first started this journey in that I didn't know what was going on with my career. ah SEO as has been really tumultuous. yeah And I just started to feel like, I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this anymore. I don't know if my career is going to exist. I don't know if my whole industry is going to fall apart. Is AI going to replace me?
00:51:15
Speaker
all these really big unknown questions. And I was just freaking out about it. And every, it was consuming my thoughts every day. I was waking up and thinking like, today I either have to quit everything or sign up. And it was no, everything was an ultimatum. All of my energy went into figuring out what I was supposed to do. yeah And I had a kind of, not a vision, but I was trying, reading through these books and thinking about it. And I started to picture myself in a river and the river is of life I guess and it's just that it carries you and you have to go with the flow and sometimes you take the bend and you're like I don't know what's around that corner and that's freaking scary and you start swimming as fast as you can and you start swimming against the current and you wear yourself out and guess what you end up going around the corner anyway.
00:52:08
Speaker
But you end up going around the corner completely worn out and completely tired. Whereas if you just laid back and thought, I'm going to let this path take me and I'm not going to resist, even if it's a scary path, it's like the hardest thing to do.
Embracing Uncertainty and Imperfection
00:52:23
Speaker
But as soon as I did that, everything resolved. I started to feel more confident about being creative. I started to feel better about my job, about the future of my industry. I just stopped panicking. yeah And I think that quote and the ones I have on my wall here about being, I'm a skilled hiker, I have done this before. yeah I don't need to know exactly where I'm going because I've done random scary things before and I've always come out okay. And the same thing with, it's okay if I don't have the answers today. That's why I say I have permission to move at a slow pace. For me, I like to know the answer tomorrow. You don't get to know the answer tomorrow. You have to be okay with, today I'm gonna do this and then we'll see what's going on tomorrow.
00:53:02
Speaker
yes Oh, it all resonates so much. I love it. I love your perspective on. It's funny with the river, I feel. I think that's something I need to sit with and do a little more work around just figuring out like, where's the river trying to take? See, that's not, that's what I want to know. You don't get to know. And it's frustrating. And I think, especially for people like you and I, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but we're both go-getters. We're both highly driven people. We're both a little bit type A. We like a plan. We like organization.
00:53:32
Speaker
And all of those things are great, but we are the kinds of people who when things don't go to plan, it's like, hard what am I going to do? I'm going to freak out. yeah And it's been a real, I'm still working on being the kind of person who can just, okay, the plan's not going as I want. I'm just going to let it go and see where it takes me. Yeah. So I actually very rarely do this, but I had another content people interview earlier today with this guy, Kayvon, who is working, he's founded a kind of interesting AI company. And he and Matt and I know each other. So I was like, I wanted to have him on. And he's so smart. And he's had a lot of really cool jobs. And sometimes when founders are on, you can sense, I feel like there's people have different levels of comfort with how vulnerable they're willing to be. And I was so impressed by he was very vulnerable, even though it's he's
00:54:29
Speaker
The perception of the company is very important at this moment in time too. So there's a balance there, but he was, he said something about, that reminded me of what you'd said about your first year of freelancing. I think where you were like, it's like you're in a dark stairway. The dark stairway. Yes. And you can only feel one step at a time, but like you just keep going and it like your eyes adjust. You you get there. And he was describing the first year of founding a business as he said that because he'd worked at so many startups before he thought it helped him because he had no expectation of anything but chaos. And he was like, it's like going into a messy room. And if you're obsessed with making the room perfect, you're going to have a bad time. But if you can like accept the mess of it and still somehow do some work and I'm not articulating end of it really well.
00:55:26
Speaker
But I don't know, I just feel like even in work and in life and in creativity, this idea that sometimes I struggle with, which is that if it's not top to bottom perfect, I must have fucked it up and therefore I should feel shame and I should stop. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yeah, it's crazy because I was actually reflecting on this in my morning pages the other day of how the inner voice in me can really contradict itself. And at one point it will be like, you're not good enough, you can't do this, like you'll never succeed. And then if I ignore that voice and actually try whatever it is I was trying, then the voice changes tone and it's that was a one off. like that was just good luck like next time it certainly won't happen or like it might be like this is good but it's not as good as XYZ the inner voice will move the goalposts all the time it will never be satisfied and but it's funny to me it's like at one point it can tell me I'm like
00:56:24
Speaker
a worthless writer who doesn't deserve to write. And then I might get good critiques from somebody and it will be like, they're just being nice. And I'm like, come on, we like how much evidence do I have to show you that I can do this? But that's what I think Morning Pages is for me is talking to that voice and being like, I hear you buddy. You're wrong though. We're going to try this anyway, even though you don't like it. Yes. I know exactly what you meant. Anytime someone gives me a compliment about something related to Medberry or the podcast, anything. Um, I do the whole thing. I'm like, they're just being nice or it's so bad. They had to comfort me.
00:57:01
Speaker
Yeah, or they didn't want to hurt my feelings. It's so bad that like it's beyond help. Exactly. So they just said something nice, which is such crap. I know. People aren't that nice. Yeah. No, they are not that nice. And I, yeah, I totally hear you. I think the perfectionist inside is really tough to contend with. Oh gosh, Leo. It's comforting when people doing well are you get a little internal. experience and you're like, oh, we're all the same. And there's so much self doubt in so many of us, but also you are just incredible writer and I cannot wait to read your memoir. And I just admire so much about your approach. And I do want to say too, I know we think like shit talked money at the start of this one, but, and I do feel like this is a complex thing I feel about my own journey and maybe yours as well career wise is that the beginning was a lot of work.
00:57:53
Speaker
and very like financially focused. but i also And I don't know if it's resistance saying you had to do all of that to get to a spot where you were comfortable enough to like not worry about it too much for a little while. Or maybe that's not true. But I do think that I so admire the kind of situation you've created for yourself where you're making really pretty great money as a freelancer working two days a week.
Reflecting on Past Influences and Growth
00:58:20
Speaker
And then you've got this whole other You've got this, you've created this space and routine for your creativity. And I just think it's like, it's amazing like the life you've you've cultivated and created through all your different skills. Thank you. It was a labor of love. Yeah. Look, sometimes I'll work three or even four days a week.
00:58:40
Speaker
I can believe it. I know. But rarely books. Yeah. It took a long time to get here. The idea you pose of, did I actually have to get to a point where I was making a certain amount of money before I could release the creativity inside?
00:58:57
Speaker
Or not even necessarily release it, but I just mean like, sometimes I'm like, okay, it's fine for me about it now. But I had to make a lot of money for a long time to have enough money to
00:59:10
Speaker
turn my attention elsewhere. And I don't know. I haven't decided if that is true or if that's actually also resistance being like you had to give up those 15 years to have the luxury of being here now. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You better suffer and struggle. Like I had to do that. Yeah. And I don't know the answer. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think? What creative outlets do you tap into? This podcast has been a creative project for me. The the newsletter, I'd say it's a big, it's like creative for me for sure. And even Medberry is, it's a creative endeavor. It's a business of like true ghostwriting, really thoughtful brand strategy. That's not go any 30 clients with this cookie cutter offer and doing XYZ. Like it is deeper, more fulfilling creative work at the pace and structure and process that like I set. And so that, to it feels, I definitely.
01:00:08
Speaker
believe that for me, Medbury is a true creative project with all of the ups and downs of of anything else. And it's something I wanted to do for a really long time. But you couldn't. But I couldn't because I didn't really think I deserved to yet, yeah to treat and go the creation of a company as a creative project. I think you've hit on something there where it really important in which i am I admire the way you look at your business as a creative act. And somebody posted that on my Facebook today, my friend Helen. She said, I was complaining about how creativity is so often stifled by the drive for money. And she said, starting a business is a creative act.
01:00:47
Speaker
and And that is so true. And I don't think of my business creatively nearly enough. I wonder though, yeah, it would be interesting to build a time machine, right? And go back and shake my younger self and be like, you can write, like just write your novel. Or not, maybe. but i also Yeah. I also think a lot of it has to do with my maturity level. It's interesting. A lot of times we think of artists as you better be famous by the time you're 25 or else it's not going to happen. yeah I don't know. Certainly young people should and can do. create wonderful art. But I find that like for my memoir, first of all, I need a distance from the actual event. Like I couldn't have written about it in 2021. It was so fresh and painful. And also I feel like there was a lot of things my younger self was doing that were also not, I drank a lot. I partied a lot. I had hangovers a lot as a result. And I was focused on dating. I was focused on
01:01:45
Speaker
Relationships and friendships and my job and all of those things took up the space that I could have been dedicating to creativity. And the reason they were like, the reason they took up so much space is because I wasn't dealing with some issues that I needed to deal with. And now I'm ready to deal with them as I'm almost 40. And we're 37. We're 37. That's officially late 30s. That's okay. I love it. I'm here for it. Me too. I love it. I do love it because I don't think that my younger self could have written the book that I'm writing now. yeah As much as I love him and in honor who he was, he wasn't up to the task as I am today. But maybe he would have been up to a different creative task if I'd given him the space. yeah I don't know. Well, you're an experienced tiger now. Right. I had to do all of that stuff. yeah And I think what you said, like you did have to go through everything you did in order to be where you are today. We all do.
01:02:44
Speaker
I don't know that there's necessarily like a, you have to pay this many years in before you can be creative. But I do think that our creativity is born out of our experiences and about the things that we try. And so the experiences and things that you tried when you were younger are what gave you the creativity that you now put into your business. The experiences and ways I observed things when I was younger are now the things that I'm putting in my memoir. But adult Liam is the one that can, 37 year old Liam is the one that can actually do that. Yeah. 25 year old Liam probably wouldn't have been able to. Yeah. I love all versions of Liam that I've known and I'm so great. I've known a lot of them. I have. I really have. It's funny. Both you and I, I feel like our 23 year old selves were basically binge drinkers and we neither was really a drink at all. No, I know. Who wasn't a binge drinker in 2006 or 2009?
01:03:37
Speaker
I know. But alcohol is one of those things that just for me was a time suck. It's a money second and time suck. I'm not here to be like, I still drink. I still have drinks every once in a while. I had to be here last night. But the amount that I was drinking was partially because I wasn't able to focus on my own problems. And drinking is a great way around that. And also it was social pressure. yeah But it just like, I complained about being poor when I was younger. I still managed to find... But that was a necessity. Yeah, that felt like a necessity at the time. And the scary thing is with this kind of vulnerable work is like, you have to stop doing that kind of thing and actually look at the problem. And that is the hardest part. And being vulnerable is so... It's just hard. It's really hard, especially if you do it every single day, which is why it's so important to be gentle.
01:04:26
Speaker
with yourselves. Yes, I really like that. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about or that you wish I'd brought us around to? I just love this conversation. I think it's it's perfect timing for me. And I think it's, we spend so much time talking, not you and I, but like in general, people spend so much time talking about their work and talking about, I write about STO all day, every day. It's so nice to talk about something that's a little bit deeper. We talked about prioritizing and maybe this is what I'll end on is that finding a way to put creativity as a priority for me rather than my work being a priority it was like one of the scarier things I've done, being willing to do that. yeah But it had, when I'm older and dying and I look back on my life, I'm not, I'm going to be so proud if I do this creative work. That's what I'll be proud of. I won't be like, I really made, good money. And thanks to SEO, I made really good money in 2024. That's not what I'm going to be remembering. But I will be saying, wow, I really did that memoir. I really sat down and wrote a whole memoir. and That is amazing. And so I encourage people to just think about picture yourself in the future. What is the legacy that you want to leave behind? If not the top priority right now, try making it for a week. Try making it the top priority and see what happens. And that's really good advice. That's my advice anyway.
01:05:53
Speaker
I love the the baby step of a week, too. That's how I started. I was like, I'm going to try this artist way. I'll do one week really seriously. And if I really like it, then I will keep with it. And here I am, still doing my morning pages. Cut to us in your c creative room. I know. Seriously, Julia Kim won't be so proud. But just try it. is The worst that's going to happen is you realize it's not for you and you can go back to doing whatever it is you're doing. But try just play around with the idea. If you are a person who's I want to be more creative, play around with the idea of creativity is the most in my life. Just run that thought through your head. Even if you don't believe it, run that thought through your head a few times this week. Just try it out and try it on the sweater. See how it feels. Because for me, it's stuck. It changed my whole life. All right. Thank you, Liam. Love you. Thank you for having me. It was so fun.
01:06:50
Speaker
Hey content people, do you mind if I call you that? If you like the show, there are a few ways you can stay in touch and support us. The first is you can subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. The second is you can leave a five star rating and a review. Those make a really big impact. I know they're a pain and they take a little bit of time, but if you're feeling generous and you've been listening to the show, I'd appreciate it so much. And the third is you could sign up for the Content People newsletter. The link is in the show notes. We share news about the show and episodes. And I also write a lot about the intersection between work and creativity, which is at the heart of so many of these Content People conversations.
01:07:30
Speaker
We also love feedback. If you want to request a guest or a topic, pitch yourself to be on the show, advertise with us, learn more about Medbury social media, or otherwise just be in touch, shoot me an email. I would love to hear from you. It's Meredith at medburyagency dot.com. That's M-E-D-B-U-R-Y agency dot.com. I will throw that in the show notes too. All right, until next time.