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Introducing the New Antiquarians
19 Plays6 years ago
For the Winter Show’s 2019 diamond jubilee, Curious Objects hosted a panel discussion between four young lights of the antiques world, who'd gathered to announce the birth of a new club: the New Antiquarians.
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Transcript
Introduction and Event Overview
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
00:00:13
Speaker
I'm Ben Miller.
00:00:14
Speaker
Today's episode is something new for me.
00:00:16
Speaker
It's a live special recorded from the Park Avenue Armory in New York City.
00:00:20
Speaker
You'll hear from a panel of young people in the world of antiques, including yours truly.
Exploring the World of Antiques
00:00:25
Speaker
We got together at the Winter Show, one of the foremost antique shows in the world, to talk about collecting, learning, research, craftsmanship, and the future of the decorative arts.
00:00:34
Speaker
We had a lot of ground to cover.
00:00:36
Speaker
This was also a launch event for a new group of young enthusiasts called the New Antiquarians.
00:00:41
Speaker
Stay tuned for more info about that.
00:00:43
Speaker
On the panel are myself and my fellow organizer, Michael Diaz-Griveth, the Associate Executive Director of The Winter Show, Carly Quint, Head of European Glass and Ceramics at Christie's New York,
00:00:55
Speaker
And Emily Bodie, designer and founder of the fashion label Bodie, who repurposes vintage and antique textiles as contemporary menswear.
00:01:08
Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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Speaker
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00:01:37
Speaker
Michael.
Formation of the New Antiquarians
00:01:38
Speaker
Would you please start us out by telling us a little bit about this group, the New Antiquarians?
00:01:44
Speaker
Sure.
00:01:45
Speaker
And first I'd like to welcome you all to the Winter Show.
00:01:48
Speaker
This is our 65th year.
00:01:50
Speaker
So you're here thinking about the future of antiques with us during our 65th anniversary Sapphire Jubilee, which I think is something very special.
00:02:02
Speaker
You're here because Ben and I began discussing an idea about a year ago, right?
00:02:09
Speaker
I think it's been at least a year.
00:02:11
Speaker
At least a year, okay, two years ago.
00:02:14
Speaker
To try to convene young professionals in the arts and design around topics related to the antiques trade, the museum world, all of the issues we face as young professionals in the field.
00:02:31
Speaker
in order to create a feeling of solidarity and a forum for discussion about really the future of antiques, historic art, material culture, these fields that deal with history that we are really passionate about and that some think are on the decline.
00:02:54
Speaker
We don't think they're on the decline.
00:02:56
Speaker
We know from our experience that the future of antiques is bright, and we kind of wanted a space to discuss topics around that future with other like-minded people.
Personal Connections to Antiques
00:03:08
Speaker
So that's what we're trying to kick off.
00:03:10
Speaker
So here we are in this Herter Brothers designed room right in front of one of the great antique shows in the world.
00:03:17
Speaker
And I'm thrilled to see how many faces there are here.
00:03:22
Speaker
This is really just a delightful experience.
00:03:25
Speaker
I want to kick off by starting with the focus of what we're all interested in, which is objects.
00:03:33
Speaker
And that's what all of this revolves around, is the particular objects and the stories that can be told about them.
00:03:42
Speaker
And so just to start us off, I wanted to ask each of the panelists here about an object that you have in your possession which is meaningful to you in some way.
00:03:57
Speaker
So Carly, would you like to start?
00:04:00
Speaker
Sure.
00:04:03
Speaker
Thinking about the objects that are most meaningful to me personally, they seem to be objects that have been passed down through my family.
00:04:13
Speaker
So just the other day I was making cookies and I have a set of aluminum measuring spoons that belong to my grandmother and just using them, I don't know, gives me a sense of generations past and even though she was a terrible cook.
00:04:27
Speaker
But I love things that have passed down through my family and those are the ones that I treasure the most.
00:04:32
Speaker
I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I didn't grow up in the antiques business.
00:04:38
Speaker
I stumbled into it completely by accident.
00:04:41
Speaker
And so I wasn't surrounded by antique objects as a kid.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I've had to feel my way into what I like and what's meaningful and important to me.
00:04:54
Speaker
And so one such object, which I bought early after entering the business of antique silver, which is my day job, I bought a little teapot at auction, which is just a little over 100 years old.
00:05:07
Speaker
It's not a particularly exciting or valuable thing.
00:05:11
Speaker
It wouldn't pass vetting at the winter show.
00:05:15
Speaker
Sorry.
00:05:18
Speaker
I can't hold you responsible for that, Michael.
00:05:20
Speaker
Was it ceramic?
00:05:22
Speaker
It's silver.
00:05:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:25
Speaker
So I do keep it polished.
00:05:27
Speaker
And I wish I should have brought it here, but it's a bizarre combination of periods and styles and ideas.
00:05:37
Speaker
There are Rococo elements.
00:05:38
Speaker
There are Art Deco elements.
00:05:39
Speaker
It was made by an American firm that never made hollow wear.
00:05:43
Speaker
They only made silver flatware.
00:05:46
Speaker
So this was far outside of their wheelhouse.
00:05:48
Speaker
They had no idea what they were doing.
00:05:49
Speaker
And I just love the idea that
00:05:51
Speaker
somebody could, without any preconceptions, without any formalized training necessarily, come up with an idea for some new kind of object, something that hadn't been in anybody's life previously, and bring it into our lives, and now 100 years later into my life.
Experiences in Collecting Antiques
00:06:10
Speaker
I feel like my object that comes to the top of my mind right now is kind of a mesh between both of what you guys said.
00:06:20
Speaker
I've always...
00:06:21
Speaker
wanted my family heirlooms or all of my heirlooms have been what I probably would have thought of, like my mother's sweaters and my grandfather's bow tie collection.
00:06:30
Speaker
But recently I bought my first quilt as a part of my personal collection that I had read about and it had been my iPhone background for years.
00:06:42
Speaker
I think about a year before I bought it.
00:06:45
Speaker
That act of buying something that I had loved for so long, but it didn't have necessarily an heirloom quality in my own family, kind of sets it apart.
00:06:56
Speaker
It's like the first time I cherished something that wasn't part of my family's.
00:07:01
Speaker
Wow, I really connect to that, because my mother's mother was an antiques dealer.
00:07:07
Speaker
And my mother hated her mother, so when she...
00:07:11
Speaker
inherited a pink tractor trailer full of antiques from her, she promptly sold them all.
00:07:20
Speaker
She hated that they smelled of smoke, and they reminded her of her childhood.
00:07:25
Speaker
And so I grew up in houses that were filled with
00:07:30
Speaker
average suburban furniture, you know?
00:07:32
Speaker
Things that my parents had gone out and bought because they were fashionable in Alabama in 1989 or 1994.
00:07:38
Speaker
So I didn't have heirlooms because they had been auctioned off actually.
00:07:48
Speaker
And since I began collecting a few years ago, I've been kind of constituting my own collection, something that I may pass on to my children or friends or family in the future.
00:08:04
Speaker
And one of my favorite objects I've spoken about on Curious Objects, it's a watercolor.
00:08:09
Speaker
I love
Approaches to Antique Shows
00:08:10
Speaker
this picture.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, that I love.
00:08:12
Speaker
And it's from a portfolio.
00:08:16
Speaker
that was owned by a medical student in 18th century Germany.
00:08:20
Speaker
And what's special about it, I mean, I just love the way it looks.
00:08:23
Speaker
And that really matters, you know?
00:08:24
Speaker
It gives me joy to look at it.
00:08:26
Speaker
But it belongs to a family of watercolors that were spread across the globe from the same portfolio.
00:08:33
Speaker
And so I'm also a part of this kind of global family of people who've collected those sheets from the portfolio.
00:08:39
Speaker
And I just, I love that.
00:08:40
Speaker
I love to think that while it would be lovely for that portfolio to be intact, it's kind of just as cool that all of these people share one piece of a greater puzzle.
00:08:52
Speaker
So Michael, when you walk around the floor of an antique show like The Winter Show, what is it that you're looking for?
00:08:59
Speaker
What are you trying to find?
00:09:00
Speaker
Do you have galleries that you zero in on and go straight for?
00:09:05
Speaker
Do you have genres that you're looking for?
00:09:07
Speaker
Do you wander aimlessly until something grabs your eye?
00:09:12
Speaker
How do you approach that?
00:09:14
Speaker
Well, I can't be totally frank because we're at the winter show, right?
00:09:18
Speaker
So I love all of the galleries equally.
00:09:23
Speaker
I love watercolors.
00:09:24
Speaker
They're easy to collect.
00:09:26
Speaker
That's something I'm focused on at the moment, my personal collecting.
00:09:29
Speaker
But I just love that you go out onto the show floor and find decorative arts of the highest quality from, you know, 5,000 years of human culture and history.
00:09:43
Speaker
And...
00:09:44
Speaker
One thing I've become really interested in as I attempt to speak to more and more young collectors to sort of find out what makes them tick is that while quality really matters, and it does, and the winter show is a vetted show, so we care about quality, we think a lot about authenticity, date, condition at this fair,
00:10:12
Speaker
finding objects that just speak to you that are weird maybe or very, very particular to your sensibility and homing in on them
00:10:28
Speaker
developing a relationship with the object and with the exhibitor who's selling the object is kind of, I think, my focus increasingly, and I think it's the focus of other young collectors I speak to.
00:10:41
Speaker
There's not a sense that, okay, I've started collecting one kind of material, now I need to create a sequential collection where I build it in a particular way that someone else has told me is the right way.
00:10:53
Speaker
Instead, I find that if my eye alights on one thing,
00:10:57
Speaker
I begin learning about it, I begin listening to exhibitors tell me stories about it, and over time, you know, I develop my own kind of collecting narrative.
00:11:08
Speaker
And sometimes it's really eclectic and it takes me from, you know,
00:11:12
Speaker
an object that was produced in Vienna in 1910 to a Biedermeier object that it was inspired by, right?
00:11:20
Speaker
And that's what's fun about the collecting journey, I think.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah, every object is a rabbit hole.
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:26
Speaker
And you can dive down infinitely.
00:11:29
Speaker
Sources of inspiration, materials, craftsmanship.
00:11:32
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:11:34
Speaker
Carly, what's your experience?
00:11:36
Speaker
We were just walking around the floor, and of course your area of specialty is ceramics.
00:11:44
Speaker
There are a few dealers at this show who specialize in ceramics, and there are a lot of dealers who don't.
00:11:50
Speaker
What is it?
00:11:52
Speaker
Your professional life is completely full of antique porcelain and glass objects.
00:12:00
Speaker
Outside of work, outside of your job, if there is such a thing,
00:12:05
Speaker
What do old objects mean for you?
00:12:08
Speaker
What niche do they fill in
Antiques in Fashion and Design
00:12:10
Speaker
your life?
00:12:10
Speaker
As you walk around the show floor here, what is it that draws your attention and what do you think about outside of Kong-shi tankards and that sort of thing?
00:12:22
Speaker
Well, when I come to an antique show, first I look for interesting objects.
00:12:29
Speaker
I love innovative displays and
00:12:33
Speaker
I really like the dealers to be friendly.
00:12:36
Speaker
I feel like when you walk into a booth, especially if you're trying to get young people more engaged with these objects and find new collectors, if the dealers aren't welcoming, it's very off-putting.
00:12:46
Speaker
Whereas if you had taken the time to speak to them about something they were looking at and tried to show them what was interesting or cool about it, they might
00:12:55
Speaker
a collector one day.
00:12:56
Speaker
You never know if somebody might have the money to spend now if you'd only taken the time.
00:13:01
Speaker
Outside of work, I
00:13:08
Speaker
poor husband has been dragged around the world.
00:13:09
Speaker
I feel like every holiday becomes a ceramic holiday, intentionally or not.
00:13:15
Speaker
I find a way to make it into a ceramics holiday.
00:13:18
Speaker
But it is, because I really enjoy these objects and learning about them.
00:13:21
Speaker
So, yes, we're traveling through Spain, but there's a lot of historic houses that you can see in Spain.
00:13:28
Speaker
And there's an amazing tile museum in Lisbon, and there's all sorts of these other things that can really
00:13:38
Speaker
color a place.
00:13:39
Speaker
I don't know, when I go someplace.
00:13:40
Speaker
And of course your Instagram followers are the beneficiaries of that.
00:13:44
Speaker
Because we get to see the, yeah.
00:13:47
Speaker
I feel like the boundaries of my exposure to your field expand anytime you go on a trip because I see all the things that you're looking at.
00:13:55
Speaker
Well, I love looking for the strange and unusual in ceramics and just pointing out things people might not have noticed about more run-of-the-mill ceramics.
00:14:05
Speaker
Right.
00:14:08
Speaker
Emily, I wanted to ask, we're talking a lot about objects and their histories, and aesthetics are clearly important, and provenance is clearly important, but what you do with antiques is a bunch more direct.
00:14:25
Speaker
because you are actually a craftsman, if I can use that term, or you're the one who's taking the objects that we are all looking at and actually making something new out of them.
00:14:39
Speaker
So I want to ask, where did that idea come from?
Understanding Antiques: Quality and Authenticity
00:14:44
Speaker
What was your inspiration for working with these old materials as opposed to
00:14:51
Speaker
taking modern fabrics and trying to come up with designs that work for them.
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like initially, I mean, I was raised going to antique shows and kind of having, that connection started at a young age.
00:15:04
Speaker
My parents collected antiques, my grandparents collected antiques, but it became more of like,
00:15:13
Speaker
making from antique textiles, probably in college.
00:15:16
Speaker
Every muslin, which is the first shape of a final garment, I was making out of fabrics that weren't throwaways, essentially.
00:15:25
Speaker
So...
00:15:27
Speaker
When I knew that I wanted to start my own brand, I made a pair of trousers from a quilt top that I had saved.
00:15:33
Speaker
I had collected fabric since I was little, and I kind of had a collection already going.
00:15:38
Speaker
And when I made this first sample as a mock-up, I realized this is what got me most inspired.
00:15:43
Speaker
You know, it's creating a wardrobe for someone that has that intrinsic quality to it that you get from buying vintage or antique clothing or collecting antique objects, but you can do it in a modern way.
00:15:57
Speaker
Kind of like initially where it came from.
00:15:58
Speaker
But my relationship to kind of what you were saying, a lot of what draws you to collecting are the people that are selling.
00:16:06
Speaker
It's the dealers that I've known for years.
00:16:09
Speaker
And each collection that I do kind of is involved in one way or another with that relationship to another person.
00:16:18
Speaker
Let's back up for a second here, take a couple of steps backwards.
00:16:22
Speaker
Zoom out.
00:16:23
Speaker
Michael.
00:16:23
Speaker
Michael.
00:16:25
Speaker
Tell us what the definition is of an antique.
00:16:31
Speaker
Different people will obviously give you different answers, right?
00:16:33
Speaker
Legally it's objects that are 100 years old or more, but I think colloquially that's not really how most people use the term.
00:16:40
Speaker
So what does the word antique mean to you?
00:16:43
Speaker
Well, it's funny you ask, because today I was actually thinking about the word vintage, which we don't discuss much around here, because
00:16:52
Speaker
we're dealing with material that is the best of the best, to use the winter show's old tagline.
00:16:59
Speaker
And traditionally that material has been antique material, you know, 100 years old or older.
00:17:06
Speaker
Now that the show's datelines have expanded, our focus is on quality, always.
00:17:12
Speaker
And that means that we have to think about standards of authenticity, of quality for material that may be 50 years old or 10 years old.
00:17:23
Speaker
And for me, that's really kind of, it's opened up my way of thinking about objects because
00:17:31
Speaker
Whereas before, I thought about the disciplinary categories that the show works with.
00:17:37
Speaker
You know, porcelain has certain, the field has certain standards and they're very important, right?
00:17:42
Speaker
And if we're thinking about silver, we need to know our marks.
00:17:46
Speaker
And there are very specific things we need to know about to comprehend that discipline.
00:17:52
Speaker
That's what, you know, connoisseurship is.
00:17:54
Speaker
But as we look at objects on a more trans-historical timeline, I think we can think about their intrinsic qualities in a slightly more creative way, which is really what I think Emily is doing.
00:18:10
Speaker
So while I happen to love objects that are antique, I mean, I'm passionate about the 18th and 19th centuries,
00:18:20
Speaker
I'm finding that over time my tastes are only becoming more and more open and eclectic.
00:18:26
Speaker
And I think that that happens when you begin to really see objects and craftsmanship and artisanship for what it is.
00:18:35
Speaker
And you begin to appreciate it in all things, no matter when they're from.
Diverse Expertise in Antiques
00:18:40
Speaker
So the traditional definition of antiques still matters.
00:18:45
Speaker
We need to be able to think about why something is important
00:18:48
Speaker
because of the period in which it was produced, because it has survived, because it has been valued over time.
00:18:55
Speaker
All of that is relevant.
00:18:57
Speaker
But I'm also interested in thinking about how a compelling object can matter, whether it's 10 years old or 50 years old, 100 years old, or 5,000 years old.
00:19:09
Speaker
It's an interesting idea that, again, thinking about walking around the floor of the antique show,
00:19:16
Speaker
There are dealers who have a very clear specialty, who have deep expertise in one specific and well-defined area.
00:19:28
Speaker
And there are dealers who have two or three areas of expertise, of specialty.
00:19:34
Speaker
There are also dealers whose inventory
00:19:37
Speaker
comprises objects of all different categories.
00:19:41
Speaker
And that, to me, is very intimidating, the notion that you can actually know enough about a wide variety of subfields to be able to buy and sell those pieces, to be able to identify objects
00:19:55
Speaker
fakes and forgeries to be able to tell the difference between a B-plus piece and an A-plus piece.
00:20:02
Speaker
And yet, sometimes those are also the most interesting stands to visit because you never know what you're going to find and because you see objects juxtaposed that you would never have thought to put next to each other.
00:20:14
Speaker
And after all, that's how we live, right?
00:20:16
Speaker
We don't decorate our houses with just...
00:20:20
Speaker
18th century English silver.
00:20:22
Speaker
Maybe we should, but most of us don't.
00:20:27
Speaker
And so to a certain extent, we all, at least as collectors, I think we have to have some notion of, at the very least, what we like across different fields and across different periods.
00:20:38
Speaker
And so I wonder, Carly, what are your thoughts about this?
00:20:43
Speaker
Because you are a person who has very deep expertise and well, I guess,
00:20:52
Speaker
European ceramics and glass is actually a fairly wide range of objects, but you also, of course, see thousands of objects from outside that world every day.
00:21:04
Speaker
And so, well, I don't know if you see thousands of those objects every day, but you see plenty.
00:21:11
Speaker
Do you feel that your knowledge of these
00:21:15
Speaker
related disciplines or peripheral disciplines, is that enhanced by your study of your main field?
00:21:22
Speaker
Do you ever feel that you want to just leave the ceramics behind and go and learn about 18th century pictures?
00:21:31
Speaker
How do you relate to things that are sort of outside of your focus area?
00:21:36
Speaker
Well, I do love 18th century pictures too.
00:21:39
Speaker
I think it's nice to have, even if your focus is one thing, I love ceramics, I think it's important to know the context in which those pieces
00:21:51
Speaker
or made, and so you can't just know about the ceramics of the 18th century or the 19th century.
00:21:57
Speaker
You need to know about the social history of the period and about all the other decorative arts that would have gone along with it.
00:22:04
Speaker
So you understand that, oh, you'd be looking at this plate and this chair by candlelight, and this was going on in history, and this is why the design is like this, and all these sorts of things.
00:22:15
Speaker
So I don't think you can look at it in a vacuum.
00:22:17
Speaker
I think you,
00:22:19
Speaker
I think even if you have a specialty, you're naturally curious about all the other subjects that surround it.
00:22:24
Speaker
Now, sorry, go ahead, Michael.
00:22:26
Speaker
I've been admiring on Emily's Instagram feed, which is like my main way of knowing you until today, that your brand sells Lassie cups, right?
00:22:37
Speaker
Like vintage Lassie cups.
00:22:39
Speaker
And I was just wondering how,
00:22:43
Speaker
we know you for the way you've worked with quilts and textiles producing garments, but your brand clearly encompasses increasingly a sort of broader
00:22:52
Speaker
world
Expanding Antique Collections
00:22:53
Speaker
of objects.
00:22:53
Speaker
Can you speak to that at all?
00:22:55
Speaker
I feel like it's... Yeah, I mean, that came just from, it was more so around the holidays and trying to have something that people could shop still in the world that we're trying to evoke and create with Bodhi, but not necessarily by a full garment.
00:23:14
Speaker
I think in terms of categories, we've expanded in making other goods, but...
00:23:19
Speaker
It's also I enjoy sharing those findings.
00:23:23
Speaker
That's a dealer that I've bought from for a while, and I wanted to share those cups, which they're all engraved for us.
00:23:31
Speaker
Kind of from like the 1940s, and to be able to share that story just as much as sharing maybe the story of fabrics is equally as important.
00:23:44
Speaker
Emily, how do you feel, you know, one of the interminable questions that we antiques and decorative arts people are constantly asked and constantly ask ourselves is, well, you know, how are we going to make what we do appealing to new generations?
00:24:00
Speaker
There's a lot of talk of doom and gloom and how there's, you know,
00:24:07
Speaker
we're all gonna go out of business, right?
00:24:08
Speaker
And Michael and I don't think that that's true.
00:24:13
Speaker
But I wonder, Emily, how, you know, we live in a fast fashion world.
00:24:23
Speaker
We,
00:24:25
Speaker
Americans throw away enormous quantities of clothing every year.
00:24:30
Speaker
We don't necessarily treasure our textiles in the way that people might have when textiles were much more expensive than they are today.
00:24:40
Speaker
I think you could say the same about any number of types of objects that we have in our lives.
00:24:46
Speaker
I don't need to mention IKEA.
00:24:48
Speaker
And so I'm curious,
00:24:53
Speaker
The pieces that you make, in some cases, you can only make one, right?
00:25:00
Speaker
Because you can't just go order more of this 19th century quilt.
00:25:07
Speaker
So how is it that, I mean, how does what you do sort of compare with...
Integrating Antiques into Daily Life
00:25:14
Speaker
the world or fight against or play alongside the world of fashion labels that are trying to turn over our wardrobes as quickly as we can.
00:25:27
Speaker
Yeah, initially, I mean, the foundation of the brand was dealing with just the antique textiles.
00:25:33
Speaker
And I had realized that we don't store domestic textiles like our parents or even our grandparents are.
00:25:43
Speaker
there are quite a bit of them.
00:25:45
Speaker
There's linen closets full of embroidered linens and bedsheets.
00:25:51
Speaker
We continue to make the antique one-of-a-kind pieces, but in terms of scaling our business, we've begun to embroider them in India and make our own patchworks.
00:26:03
Speaker
That's one aspect of becoming part of the fashion industry as a whole in that sort of sense.
00:26:10
Speaker
And then...
00:26:15
Speaker
To me, it's more about making individual objects.
00:26:19
Speaker
That's what was so attractive to me about these antique pieces.
00:26:23
Speaker
And making one piece that people would buy into and pass along and save and keep it or call as, you know, call heirlooms.
00:26:35
Speaker
that are in a timeless shape.
00:26:36
Speaker
So it's not necessarily following fast fashion and trends.
00:26:40
Speaker
It could be trendy, but it's more about creating a garment that you could put on a guy in the 1940s and not be able to tell what era it's from still today.
00:26:53
Speaker
It's kind of the silhouettes are
00:26:56
Speaker
speak more to the timelessness.
00:26:57
Speaker
Right.
00:26:58
Speaker
I mean, I just love the idea of being comfortable with the daily use of old materials.
00:27:04
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:27:05
Speaker
And it's something that, as a dealer, I can't tell you the number of times someone comes into our shop or walks onto our stand at a show like this and says, oh, well, I could never use that tankard.
00:27:21
Speaker
And I say, well...
00:27:23
Speaker
Yes, you could.
00:27:25
Speaker
And if you buy it, I hope that you will.
00:27:28
Speaker
Because after all, that's what it's for.
00:27:32
Speaker
That's what it was made for.
00:27:33
Speaker
That's the whole point of it.
00:27:36
Speaker
Which is not to say there aren't objects that belong behind glass and that are too rare or too delicate and too important and need special preservation and whatnot.
00:27:45
Speaker
But generally speaking, the analogy I sometimes use is that to put, say, a tankard behind glass and not use it is much like closing Notre Dame to worshippers.
00:27:58
Speaker
because it's too important as a historical monument, which would, to my mind, just suck the soul out of it.
00:28:06
Speaker
The whole reason that building is interesting is that it's been in use for 800 years.
00:28:10
Speaker
And similarly, you take that tankard out from behind the glass, you put some beer in it, and suddenly you're sharing in this 200, 300, 400 year lineage.
00:28:23
Speaker
To be a part of that, I think, is a really special thing.
Sustainability and Antiques
00:28:26
Speaker
And for you, that's what you're bringing into people's everyday lives.
00:28:30
Speaker
And for us, a lot of it is explaining to our customers, you're not supposed to buy something where it wants, or to mend your clothing and to keep it.
00:28:41
Speaker
Same thing.
00:28:41
Speaker
You can't be scared that you're going to destroy something.
00:28:45
Speaker
We have some people that buy it and they store it, or they hang it on their wall.
00:28:49
Speaker
They just love it as an object.
00:28:50
Speaker
But...
00:28:51
Speaker
For the most part, it's kind of teaching people to buy clothes in a way that you mend it and you can repair it and you can patch it if you have a stain or if there's a tear.
00:29:01
Speaker
It's not finished if you feel like it's overused or something.
00:29:06
Speaker
I mean, in that sense, it's about sustainability as well as all of the...
00:29:11
Speaker
sort of historic connections we've been making.
00:29:14
Speaker
I keep hearing about this bumper sticker that says, Go Green, Buy Antiques.
00:29:19
Speaker
Yes, yes.
00:29:20
Speaker
I don't know how true that is.
00:29:23
Speaker
Depends on how many times you've shipped them.
00:29:38
Speaker
Let's take a quick break.
Listener Engagement and Feedback
00:29:40
Speaker
Before we hear again from our sponsor, I just want to thank everyone who's reached out with comments and ideas about Curious Objects.
00:29:46
Speaker
The more you tell me about what you want, the more likely it is I'll be able to make it happen.
00:29:51
Speaker
You can always email me at podcast at themagazineantiques.com or find me on Instagram at Objective Interest, where I also post pictures about the podcast.
00:30:00
Speaker
You might want to see the beautiful room where we had this panel, for instance.
00:30:03
Speaker
You can also help by leaving a review and a rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening right now.
00:30:09
Speaker
Thanks so much.
00:30:10
Speaker
We'll get back to the conversation in just a minute.
00:30:19
Speaker
Would you like to learn how much the most expensive American looking glass ever sold at auction went for?
00:30:25
Speaker
Or to find out if your collection is appropriate for sale?
00:30:28
Speaker
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00:30:32
Speaker
Discover how Thomas Aiken's gross clinic stayed in Philadelphia.
00:30:36
Speaker
Delve into the work of Wayne Thiebaud, the great draftsman, and much more on their website, freemansauction.com.
00:30:42
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From modern masters to French furniture, Freeman's takes you behind the scenes at auctions and exhibitions, delivering the latest in art market news, events, and stories.
00:30:51
Speaker
Subscribe to their bi-weekly magazine and get it sent straight to your inbox.
00:30:55
Speaker
Visit Freeman's at freemansauction.com to learn more.
Market Trends and Influences
00:30:59
Speaker
Carly, you are in the fast and loose world of auctions.
00:31:06
Speaker
There are, as we all know, there are trends.
00:31:09
Speaker
There are things that become exciting to the public and to collectors, and then there are things that seem to die out.
00:31:17
Speaker
I'm not gonna name any names.
00:31:19
Speaker
But, you know, well, I'll name a name.
00:31:24
Speaker
So,
00:31:28
Speaker
we all have heard tales of the demise of brown furniture.
00:31:33
Speaker
Now, I think this is great news because I love brown furniture, and if it's cheap, that means I can afford to buy it.
00:31:40
Speaker
And in fact, I've said that if I had a few million bucks to spare right now, I would buy a warehouse and fill it with 18th century English furniture because I can't really think of a better investment.
00:31:50
Speaker
And in the meantime, I get mahogany sideboards and tables and things.
00:31:56
Speaker
But...
00:31:58
Speaker
The market is depressed.
00:32:01
Speaker
On the other hand, the market for contemporary American art is exploding.
00:32:07
Speaker
We could go through a list of 100 different fields and each one has its own trends.
00:32:13
Speaker
Are these trends, is there a cycle to them?
00:32:16
Speaker
Are they cyclical?
00:32:19
Speaker
Is brown furniture gonna be dormant and have a resurgence in the next decade?
00:32:26
Speaker
How do you think about those things?
00:32:27
Speaker
I think it is cyclical and I think it already is rising like a phoenix from the ashes.
00:32:35
Speaker
There are some hopeful signs.
00:32:36
Speaker
There have been very good signs.
00:32:38
Speaker
The brown furniture, I would assume we're talking about English furniture, did very, very well in our David Rockefeller sale last spring.
00:32:46
Speaker
We had a sale of the Lyle collection last week and that did very well as well.
00:32:53
Speaker
Some people just need a guiding hand on how you live with these things.
00:32:57
Speaker
And I think we're coming back around.
00:32:59
Speaker
I'm seeing more decorators using these types of objects.
00:33:01
Speaker
I love what Miles Redd and Alex Papachristidis and other interior decorators are doing, mixing old with new.
00:33:09
Speaker
I love how at the show that they have these fresh modern wallpapers with the English furniture against it, and it really makes it come alive.
00:33:16
Speaker
And it's not like you're sitting in a stuffy period room.
00:33:20
Speaker
You could actually see it in your living room and it looking really cool.
Dealers as Tastemakers
00:33:23
Speaker
And who are the tastemakers?
00:33:24
Speaker
I mean, who decides what's gonna rise and what's gonna fall, aside from us in this room?
00:33:31
Speaker
I think it's interior decorators.
00:33:33
Speaker
I think it's design magazines.
00:33:36
Speaker
And I think it's people on Instagram.
00:33:40
Speaker
People on Instagram.
00:33:41
Speaker
And this is where I plug our dealers again at the show, because...
00:33:46
Speaker
We've framed them as storytellers and experts, and they are, but one of the most compelling things about this year's show is the dynamic way in which our exhibitors have presented the material.
00:33:58
Speaker
And I know that Carly was talking about this out on the show floor, and she has in this room.
00:34:03
Speaker
for someone who has the highest level of expertise in 19th century painted furniture or 18th century English furniture, who really knows their stuff, to also be able to say, and look at it against this crazy Scalamandre wallpaper, look at how good it looks and look at how fun it is,
00:34:24
Speaker
is to me the most, I don't know, there's just nothing more compelling because you have all the weight of their scholarship and their knowledge, but all of the benefit of their eye and their taste, which they've developed over the course of their careers while looking at the best material and also seeing the best interiors, right?
00:34:44
Speaker
I mean, it's always at a show like ours about how you might live with the material.
00:34:50
Speaker
Even if museums are here buying, the majority of the buyers are still looking to incorporate this material into their own collections, into their homes.
Young Collectors and Eclectic Tastes
00:35:00
Speaker
And in a funny way, I feel like specialists have become some of the thought leaders in the world of design, especially as it relates to how we might design with antiques.
00:35:12
Speaker
So it is mostly the people in this room?
00:35:15
Speaker
And out on the show floor.
00:35:17
Speaker
And out on the show floor.
00:35:18
Speaker
So Michael, speaking of the people in this room, what is, I'm gonna ask a sort of double-sided question here.
00:35:27
Speaker
What is it that people of our generation don't understand about the world of antiques that we should?
00:35:34
Speaker
And the other side of that is, what is something about our generation that the rest of the world of antiques doesn't understand about us and should?
00:35:43
Speaker
Yeah, okay, so to take the first part, I think it's really simple.
00:35:48
Speaker
I think you can find high quality works that have fascinating provenance,
00:35:56
Speaker
that are in great condition and that you're in love with.
00:36:00
Speaker
And I think you can buy them, you can begin buying them now.
00:36:05
Speaker
If you do your research and you talk to dealers and you go to museums and you learn the material, you will be able to find
00:36:15
Speaker
viable objects that you can begin bringing into your own life.
00:36:19
Speaker
And I think Carly works with a lot of material that any of us could begin collecting.
00:36:24
Speaker
And I love that about what you do.
00:36:27
Speaker
I know we could start talking about
00:36:31
Speaker
porcelain that I could probably... There's a wide variety.
00:36:34
Speaker
There's a wide variety and I could lay it on my table next week.
00:36:38
Speaker
And I think that we have to begin thinking in that way, right?
00:36:42
Speaker
In order to do, you know, to do what Emily is doing and to enfold these objects into our daily lives so that this is what we think about instead of IKEA or Crate and Barrel when we need new plates.
00:36:57
Speaker
And so that's the first step.
00:36:59
Speaker
And I don't think people realize that what the price points are, that you can have a 19th century dinner set for basically the same price as what you're registering for at an upscale department store now, or that you can have a very cool 19th century sofa in one of our interior sales at the same price point as the
00:37:24
Speaker
I mean, I don't want to name names, but, you know... Name names.
00:37:28
Speaker
Like Restoration Hardware or something like that.
00:37:32
Speaker
We sell sofas for less than $3,000 and beautiful fabrics and 19th century wood carving.
00:37:40
Speaker
And, you know, I don't think people realize that for the same price point, you could have something meaningful and that could be a talking point in your home.
00:37:46
Speaker
And that is...
00:37:47
Speaker
And that will likely last.
00:37:48
Speaker
It will last, and that is, I guess you could say, is green, like we were saying before.
00:37:53
Speaker
It's a form of recycling.
00:37:54
Speaker
You're a steward of this piece of furniture for its life, and then it will move on to somebody else.
00:38:00
Speaker
And to answer the second part of your question, and I'm going to try not to get into trouble here, but...
00:38:08
Speaker
I think that the greatest misconception about younger collectors, or just younger people whom we hope become collectors, is that they're minimalists.
00:38:19
Speaker
False.
00:38:21
Speaker
100% false.
00:38:22
Speaker
I think that the rising generation of esthetes, people in the fashion world, people in the antiques world, have a really, have an eclectic taste.
00:38:33
Speaker
I believe that to the depths of my soul.
Antiques as Daily Experiences
00:38:36
Speaker
And I think that we're all a little bit traumatized by the IKEA wave, by, I mean, I love 90s minimalism, okay, and I love minimalist art, so this isn't, I'm kind of using these terms in a loose way,
00:38:51
Speaker
But to just use IKEA as kind of the baseline, I think we're all a bit traumatized by that look and about people sort of automatically moving to that
00:39:02
Speaker
15 years ago as the baseline for an apartment.
00:39:05
Speaker
It's college dorm room.
00:39:06
Speaker
It's college dorm room.
00:39:08
Speaker
And it's over.
00:39:09
Speaker
And I do think that there was a generation of people who rejected their parents' antiques.
00:39:14
Speaker
I do.
00:39:14
Speaker
I've met so many people, like my mother, who just did not want to live with that material.
00:39:21
Speaker
But to speak to what Carly said, I think that...
00:39:23
Speaker
Fashion is cyclical.
00:39:25
Speaker
I think knowledge is cyclical.
00:39:28
Speaker
Certain things are passed down, some aren't, and they have to be rediscovered.
00:39:32
Speaker
And I think that not just the world of antiques, but more complex aesthetic worlds and visual worlds are kind of being rediscovered right now by younger people.
00:39:43
Speaker
And I think that we see that across music and fashion and the antiques world.
00:39:49
Speaker
We're not minimalists.
00:39:51
Speaker
Okay, don't be mad at me.
00:39:54
Speaker
That doesn't disappoint.
00:39:55
Speaker
Is anyone mad at Michael?
00:39:58
Speaker
I think that's a good note for us to wrap up on.
00:40:00
Speaker
I want to open up, in case there are any questions, feel free to raise your hand and a microphone will be brought to you.
Museums' Role in Antique Perception
00:40:10
Speaker
At the sake of being a martyr since I work in the museum industry, do you think that museums have a part to play in our generation's concept of antiques not being useful and the sort of do not touch philosophy that goes along with these historic objects?
00:40:27
Speaker
I think that's a fascinating question.
00:40:29
Speaker
And it's actually, it's a regret of both Michael and me that we don't have a person from the museum world up here tonight
00:40:38
Speaker
I do think that museums, as with antique dealers, are going through a period of readjustment right now where we try to figure out who our new audiences are and how to relate to them.
00:40:52
Speaker
And there is, I think there is a sense in which previous generations might have been more comfortable approaching a museum with perhaps a more
00:41:07
Speaker
abstract kind of an eye, an eye to relating what they're seeing to what they remember from their college art history courses.
00:41:15
Speaker
And that people of our cohort are, you know, we want to know what these things mean to us.
00:41:24
Speaker
We want to know what the stories are.
00:41:27
Speaker
We want to be able to, and I don't think that it's about expecting us to know more than we know.
00:41:36
Speaker
In other words, I don't think that the problem is that young people aren't sufficiently educated in art history or decorative arts.
00:41:46
Speaker
I've been talking recently about this museum, some of you may know this, the Museum of Math, which is down by Madison Square Garden.
00:41:58
Speaker
And...
00:41:59
Speaker
They do this fantastic thing, it's organized as a children's museum, but each little display, which is usually some funky, interesting kind of gadget, has a little placard with a little description at a very basic level of what's going on.
00:42:15
Speaker
But then you can move on to the more detailed version of that description.
00:42:20
Speaker
And if that's not enough for you, there's an even more detailed version, which if you have a PhD in math, it really tells you what's going on behind the scenes and the equations that are at play.
00:42:32
Speaker
And for me, I find that a totally fascinating way of interacting with an exhibit because you can dive in as deep as you want.
00:42:40
Speaker
You can read the story in as much depth as you want.
00:42:43
Speaker
You can learn anything that you want to learn.
00:42:44
Speaker
It's all there at your fingertips.
00:42:47
Speaker
And I've seen this at some art museums too, not in exactly that way, but frankly, I love mobile apps where you can walk into a gallery and download information where if you forgot that art history lecture, now you can actually do that deep dive.
00:43:05
Speaker
It gives you the context, it gives you the story, it gives you something to relate to.
00:43:10
Speaker
So I don't think that, I think that museums,
00:43:15
Speaker
can certainly find and explore new ways of relating.
00:43:20
Speaker
But I don't think it's a lost cause.
00:43:22
Speaker
And I don't think that there's any reason not to forge ahead in those directions.
00:43:29
Speaker
What do you feel about this?
00:43:32
Speaker
I mean, we're at the winter show, okay?
00:43:35
Speaker
So I would just say that one of the most exciting things about a fair like this is that you can see museum-quality objects before they're taken into private collections, whether they be the collections of collectors or museums.
00:43:50
Speaker
And so, not really looking at the big picture issues, but just at what we can do today.
00:43:58
Speaker
I love that if you go to the Winter Show or to Brimfield or to... Auctions.
00:44:06
Speaker
Or to auctions, because we're all in this world together.
00:44:10
Speaker
You can touch objects, you can feel them, you can turn them over, you can engage with their material reality, with their surface.
00:44:20
Speaker
in a very tactile way.
00:44:22
Speaker
And I think, you know, that our generation is interested in authentic stories.
00:44:26
Speaker
I think we're also interested in tactility because we're a digital generation that, you know, is kind of looking for other ways of experiencing reality.
00:44:37
Speaker
And that engaging with the art market allows one that kind of unmediated encounter with objecthood that museums have sometimes not allowed.
00:44:50
Speaker
I think increasingly they do.
00:44:52
Speaker
I think increasingly we're on the same page.
00:44:55
Speaker
But in the meantime, I definitely go to whatever venue will allow me to turn things over and really get in there with the object.
00:45:06
Speaker
And make no mistake, as long as the Metropolitan Museum of Art occupies the most valuable real estate in New York City, museums will always have a role as the focus of our cultural capital.
00:45:19
Speaker
So attendance is not exactly shabby in a lot of museums around New York City.
00:45:26
Speaker
So similarly to the world of art and antiques, there's a lot of talking of doom and gloom about museums.
00:45:35
Speaker
I don't know that that's really the right attitude.
00:45:38
Speaker
I think there are certain shows that have really... I don't know.
00:45:43
Speaker
brought 18th century objects or 19th century objects to life though at museums that have done a really nice job.
00:45:50
Speaker
Like there was a show a couple years ago at the Met, I think it was a fashion show, but it was in the 18th century galleries and there were like mannequins of people like pushed up against each other and like in dangerous liaisons and there was smashed porcelain on the floor and overturned chairs and it really sort of set, made the scenes come alive versus when you just walk into a period room and it's,
00:46:12
Speaker
Everything was very staid.
00:46:14
Speaker
It sort of made you feel like you were in the 18th century.
00:46:17
Speaker
I also really loved the Dennis Severs Museum for that reason.
00:46:21
Speaker
If you haven't been in London, it's fantastic.
00:46:24
Speaker
you have to go through this historic house in silence at night by candlelight and there's remnants of punch in the punch bowl and there's creaking floorboards and there's an actual cat that just lives in the house that's like lurking around.
00:46:41
Speaker
It really makes
00:46:43
Speaker
the period come alive and you feel like you're moving through time in this house from the 18th century into the 19th century and you get this appreciation of what these things would have looked like by candlelight, which you really can't do in a museum or an auction house.
00:46:57
Speaker
It's a really fantastic place and I think when you can make things come alive like that, it makes more people interested and they want to know more and they
00:47:09
Speaker
I think there are ways that museums can make things come alive that would be great, and I think those are two good
Advice for New Collectors
00:47:14
Speaker
examples.
00:47:14
Speaker
All right, well, we took a very long time to answer.
00:47:17
Speaker
I like the question.
00:47:19
Speaker
Can we do one more question?
00:47:23
Speaker
Hi, thank you so much.
00:47:25
Speaker
So my name is Allison Vicenzi.
00:47:27
Speaker
I'm a clothing designer and as of tonight, I'm a new antiquarian.
00:47:31
Speaker
So thank you.
00:47:31
Speaker
I'm excited to learn a little bit more about what exactly that means.
00:47:35
Speaker
But I was wondering, just touching upon the last point that you brought up in the conversation about how price accessible antiques are and how many people would be surprised to hear that.
00:47:46
Speaker
I'm just curious,
00:47:48
Speaker
For those who maybe aren't in this room and are overwhelmed by the thought of hunting for antiques, are there any specific resources that you recommend sharing both in person or online where you can find, say, homewares, like just to narrow it around, focus, like homewares where people could browse, shop, get it delivered, maybe, like even, because I'm trying to
00:48:11
Speaker
convert people basically, friends and things like this.
00:48:13
Speaker
And I think even like an entry fee to a fair is sort of one barrier that might get in the way, which is seems foolish, because in the end you're getting a great deal on a unique item.
00:48:23
Speaker
But just curious if you've come across any resources that minimize the barrier to entry for those just getting started.
00:48:31
Speaker
Thank you.
00:48:31
Speaker
I feel like you have a really active and interesting shopping life.
00:48:36
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:38
Speaker
I definitely, going to outdoor markets, I mean, it's weather prohibited, but in the summertime I go to Brimfield, knowing when to go takes a bit of time, a few times going.
00:48:52
Speaker
And I think when I first started going to auctions, that changed my life as well.
00:48:59
Speaker
I didn't know that I could just go to an auction.
00:49:02
Speaker
And also making appointments with people.
00:49:06
Speaker
to get yourself comfortable with reaching out to people on direct message that you like, their collections and private people that you would otherwise be scared to talk to.
00:49:18
Speaker
It's important to share and say, like everyone's open to taking a meeting even if they're not sure how much you can spend.
00:49:25
Speaker
And it'll help educate yourself.
00:49:27
Speaker
And also, most of my contacts have come through my network.
00:49:32
Speaker
So once I meet one dealer at an outdoor market, he'll give me a whole slew of contacts all over the nation or in Paris.
00:49:41
Speaker
Just creating that community and communication, I think, is really important.
00:49:46
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:49:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:48
Speaker
I mean, I think that many auction houses are making it easier and easier to explore their collections.
00:49:57
Speaker
So, you know, I spend a lot of time, of course, just in my professional life scouring the auction houses.
00:50:05
Speaker
But I also spend time looking through auction listings for things that might be of interest to me.
00:50:11
Speaker
And I might look at a thousand things before I find something that I actually want to bid on.
00:50:15
Speaker
But the other 999 are all teaching me something at the same time.
00:50:19
Speaker
And it's kind of fun.
00:50:20
Speaker
And if you're looking for something very specific to a lot of auction houses, I know Christie's we do, but also on live auctioneers, you can say what you're interested in finding and it will alert you if something comes up.
00:50:35
Speaker
which is helpful if you're looking for something specific.
00:50:37
Speaker
They're trying to make it very easy for you.
00:50:41
Speaker
That matters, right?
00:50:42
Speaker
If you can't pay $30,000 for the set of plates that we were discussing earlier, you can really narrowly specify what you are willing to pay.
00:50:51
Speaker
Although I would say you should probably look at the $30,000 plates too, just so you know where you are and what you can inspire to over time.
Antiques and Everyday Experiences
00:51:01
Speaker
And that's where the winter show comes into the picture for younger buyers.
00:51:05
Speaker
We have this initiative on our Young Collectors' Night now of marking objects at 10,000 and below, 5,000 and below, and 3,000 and below.
00:51:11
Speaker
And for someone who's maybe 40 or 45 or 35,
00:51:20
Speaker
who's highly qualified, that's an entry point, and that's great.
00:51:25
Speaker
And we're trying to point out to them that, okay, everything here isn't a half million dollars or a million dollars.
00:51:30
Speaker
There's an object over there that's 2,500 or 5,000, and that's one entry point.
00:51:37
Speaker
But for someone for whom that's not an entry point, the show is an education for the eye, right?
00:51:45
Speaker
And it's the sort of classic connoisseurship test of good, better, best, right?
00:51:50
Speaker
So even if I'm collecting just at the good level for my own personal use at home, I need to know what's better and what's best, not from the perspective of taste, but from the perspective of quality or craftsmanship.
00:52:04
Speaker
I need to know what's out there in the market and what the range is.
00:52:09
Speaker
And, you know, it means that whatever your budget is, it's never the wrong time to go to the winter show.
00:52:17
Speaker
It's never the wrong time to go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art to learn about an area that you may be interested in collecting in.
00:52:23
Speaker
You know, it's... Yeah, and it's worth thinking about what these objects might be worth to you.
00:52:33
Speaker
Because I think that some...
00:52:35
Speaker
One thing that I continually hear from people of previous generations, shall we call them that, is that young people want experiences, they don't want objects.
00:52:49
Speaker
They want to travel, they don't want to clutter up their tiny little apartments.
Conclusion and Acknowledgements
00:52:54
Speaker
And that's all well and good, but for me that's not how I experience antiques at all, because for me they are experiences.
00:53:01
Speaker
They're experiences that I have every day.
00:53:06
Speaker
And if I can spend the amount of money that I would spend to take a weekend trip to some little B&B somewhere and instead buy a silver teapot that I can use every day, which every time I use it, it means a little more to me because I'm building a relationship with it and an understanding of it, then that's a trade-off that I think I'm very willing to make.
00:53:35
Speaker
and that I would make again and again and again.
00:53:38
Speaker
I think even if you're not...
00:53:40
Speaker
trading vacations, even if you're buying a dinner service from the 19th century that costs as much as one that is new, that's an experience.
00:53:52
Speaker
And you get to sort of travel back in time every time you use it.
00:53:56
Speaker
And when you have guests or friends over, you get to bring them into this experience as well.
00:54:01
Speaker
It creates a talking point.
00:54:03
Speaker
When you have people over, it's an experience.
00:54:07
Speaker
It's great.
00:54:10
Speaker
All right.
00:54:11
Speaker
Well, thank you all so much for coming.
00:54:13
Speaker
This has been a lot of fun for me, at least.
00:54:20
Speaker
Thank you to Michael for helping to organize this and for participating.
00:54:26
Speaker
Thank you to Carly and to Emily.
00:54:27
Speaker
Thank you to the Winter Show for hosting us in this beautiful room.
00:54:30
Speaker
Thank you to the Magazine Antiques for making this whole thing possible.
00:54:35
Speaker
Have a good evening.
00:54:46
Speaker
That's it for this episode.
00:54:47
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed it.
00:54:49
Speaker
Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati.
00:54:52
Speaker
Our music is by Trap Rabbit.
00:54:54
Speaker
And I'm Ben Miller.
00:54:55
Speaker
I'll catch you next time.