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Future of the Student Affairs Profession
109 Plays8 months ago
This episode on-air host Dr. Stephanie Muehlethaler is joined by Dr. Nona Robinson, Brandon Smith, and Ewnet Demisse as we explore the topic of the Future of the Student Affairs Profession. We hope that you enjoy and choose to follow along as we release a number of episodes geared towards celebrating our past, present, and future as an organization.
The CACUSS50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organizations 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by: Sean Fast, Adam Kuhn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Muehlethaler, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Jean Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret de Leon, and Becca Gray. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler-colonial name, Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. For more information on the territories you may reside on, visit: https://native-land.ca/
Music: Expanding the Limits | Performed by Audiorezout & Written by Oleksii Striapchyi | Stock Media provided by Audiorezout / Pond5
Podcast Cover Art by: Ravi Gabble (UTM)
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Caucus 50th podcast. I am one of your many hosts, Stephanie Mueller, and I'm so excited to welcome everyone back to the space. We are recording this in January. Who knows when you'll listen to it, but we hope that you had a restful break, that you were able to turn off the email for a little bit and feel refreshed to get back into this term. Today, we've got a pretty hot topic, I think.
00:00:45
Speaker
We're going to discuss the future of student affairs. And I'm so delighted that I am here with three fabulous friends and colleagues of mine, Annette, the future, Dr. Brandon R.G. Smith, we are manifesting that, and Dr. Nona Robinson. And so today we have a variety of questions that we will talk to the panel.
Acknowledgment of Indigenous Land
00:01:09
Speaker
But first, I just want to acknowledge the land that I am currently on here in Peterborough, Ontario.
00:01:15
Speaker
And that is the traditional territory and treaty of the Michisaga Anishinaabe. We offer our gratitude to the First Peoples for their care for and their teachings about our Earth and our relations. And I hope that we can all honor these teachings.
Guest Introductions and Backgrounds
00:01:30
Speaker
So I would like to start with some introductions of the fabulous guests we have here today. I'm going to pass it over to Nona first to talk a little bit about her role, where she's coming in from, and then we'll
00:01:44
Speaker
pass along to Brandon and then to Annette. So, Nona, take it away.
00:01:50
Speaker
Sure. Thanks, Stephanie. And I'm really delighted to join you and everybody else. I'm coming to you from York University where I'm the Vice Provost Students. And of course, the area around Toronto is being caretaken by the Anishinaabek, the Haudenosaunee, the Huron-Wendat, and is home to many First Nations in UIT communities under the current Treaty of the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation. And as with Stephanie, I acknowledge my own privilege and my own commitment
00:02:19
Speaker
both systemic historical and current wrongs done to indigenous peoples. So as Stephanie mentioned, my name is known Robinson. I have been working in student affairs for a very long time. I added it up, it's actually 23 years and that's not even counting student politics and student newspapers, which I did when I was an undergrad.
00:02:39
Speaker
But I started at University of Toronto in 2000, where I also did my master's thesis on the experience of full-time elected student leaders in Canada and my PhD on the values of Canadian student affairs practitioners. In 2012, I went to Trent, which is one of the places that Stephanie and I got to know each other.
00:03:00
Speaker
really, of course, proud that Brandon is one of our definite alumni. And I was there for 10 years, where I was the ADP students, and then I joined York summer. So I've been here for about a year and a half.
00:03:16
Speaker
And yeah, I'm at York University and overseeing all the different student services here.
Nona on Values in Student Affairs
00:03:22
Speaker
A lot of the stuff that I'm really focused on too is really around not just the values that you bring to your work, but also creating a supportive campus environment, exploring alternative approaches to things like student behavior, mental health support, all of the other sorts of things.
00:03:39
Speaker
So as Steph knows this, I love to just sort of dig into a really nice theoretical conversation and wave my hands around a lot. So you'll probably see that a little bit later on. Thank you so much, Nona. Yes, we have a time limit, folks, on this podcast, but I'm sure if you wanted to meet with us all over coffee, feel free to take us out and we can continue this conversation. Brandon?
00:04:04
Speaker
Hi everyone, my name is Brandon Smith. I use the pronouns he and him and his. I'm also coming to this podcast in Toronto and I want to acknowledge the many territories that Nona also had acknowledged earlier. I'm currently wrapping up my PhD at Michigan State University where I study full time.
00:04:22
Speaker
I just got chapter four to my advisor so just in the home stretch right now. But I started my career and my connection to caucus was really in 2008, my first job, full time professional job as a live in residence life coordinator at Mount Royal University. 2010 I moved on to McMaster University where I worked in housing.
00:04:41
Speaker
and Residence Life, and I worked closely with Student Success and Student Affairs on campus to focus on training and development of student leaders, all of the programming that's offered in our community development model for students in residence, but also working with faculty to develop academic success initiatives on campus. I made the tough choice to leave that job to move to Toronto Metropolitan University in 2013, where I led Residence Life, until I left in 2019.
00:05:10
Speaker
And now that I'm a full-time graduate student, I was living in Lansing for the majority of my degree, studying full-time, also working as a research assistant.
Brandon's Research and Insights
00:05:21
Speaker
And my latest solo and collaborative projects include a co-author book chapter with my friend and colleague, Gwa Long Pong, that is a revised theory of student departure theory using Aston's IEO framework. And this considers the characteristics of Asian identified international students studying in Canada,
00:05:38
Speaker
I have a journal article that's just come out in the Journal for Educational Human Resources focused on student affairs employee well-being and specifically from the lens of mid-level administrators. And I'm most excited about something that's dropping in the next month.
00:05:56
Speaker
It's a co-edited volume, including co-authored chapters focused on innovating campus ecology for the new directions of higher education. And I want to acknowledge my collaborators, Drs. Kristen Wren, who's my advisor, along with Chelsea Noble, who is a close peer and colleague.
00:06:12
Speaker
And what's important to highlight, I think, is that how I look at research is from the lens as a student affairs practitioner. So the implications in the research that I publish, I really try to emphasize what is tangible and what is it that student affairs folks, ranging from multiple professional levels and leadership in higher ed can use to contribute to their choices on campus. I'm so excited for all of these things to drop and to see your name in the emails.
00:06:41
Speaker
when I get the table of contents for all the journals, I will be like, I know him. I can fangirl over someone I actually know. There you go. Annette.
Annette's Role and Perspectives
00:06:52
Speaker
Hi, everyone. My name is Annette, and I use she and her pronouns. I'm also situated in Toronto and on the Treaty lands of the Mississauga of the Credit.
00:07:04
Speaker
My family immigrated here a few decades ago so I'm a first generation Ethiopian Canadian. I've worked in post secondary during my undergrad, I was at York and so I was on the residence life team and also worked in athletics and rec and then
00:07:20
Speaker
pursued my master's abroad so was an international student abroad and also worked at the institution as a research assistant and then when I got back just started right away in my career and post-secondary so I consider myself quite a newbie in the post-secondary sector it's been a few years just I think we're going on three to four years right now so
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah, I love it here. This is where I want to be. And I'm happy to be here. And I didn't even say I work at Humber. I'm the health promotion specialist at Humber. So I work with the Student Wellness and Equitable Learning Department, which pretty much encompasses a lot of the well-being supports on campus, ranging from counseling services to the care coordinators, the health center, and different teams like that.
Current Challenges in Student Affairs
00:08:09
Speaker
Thank you all so much. So for all the listeners, I'm sure you're already aware, what a wealth of knowledge and perspectives we have today from folks who have been in the careers, like you said, Nona, a moment or two, to some newer folks, which I think can really lend beautifully as we talk about where we are right now as a profession, which I think is important to situate ourselves in, to what does this mean from each of your own lenses and what you're seeing on your campuses and with your students.
00:08:36
Speaker
let's get right into it. And like I mentioned, before we talk about the future, which is, you know, the name of the podcast, I want us to just take a moment to explore from each of your own perspectives, may it be from a practical lens, the day to day from a research perspective, or as I like to say, we're all, you know, in our own ways, practicing academics, so pracademics. What are you seeing as the current landscape of our profession? And with that perspective,
00:09:06
Speaker
Where are there areas of concern, but also opportunities? And so if you're comfortable, I'm going to start with Nona and then do that same order. And then we'll switch it up for the next question. So Nona, where are we at right now in our profession? What's going on in your eyes?
00:09:22
Speaker
Well, I don't know, York is completely calm. There's absolutely nothing happening here whatsoever. Where we're at with our profession. You know, it's interesting because we've been having conversations for quite a long time about professionalization. And I think more and more people are getting things like master's degrees and PhDs, which I think is very good and healthy. But I also don't think that we're necessarily going to be taking the same approach as it often has in states, which is in order to get an entry level job, you generally have to have a master's degree, which I think is actually
00:09:53
Speaker
of who can start in. I think we're not really post-pandemic, but post-pandemic-ish. One of the things that worries me on a day-to-day basis is burnout, underfunding of universities. That's a big one. And more and more burden being put out to students. I know that we're going to have 12 years of students who had their education affected by the pandemic coming through the system. And so whether or not they're feeling well
00:10:23
Speaker
I think one of the other things I see, which I think is really amazing and wonderful, is ever-increasing diversity in the field and a much keener understanding of the complexity and intersectionality. It's not just about one particular identity. It's how those identities all fit together, and that also fits in with things like class and financial.
00:10:47
Speaker
And I really appreciate that. I think that indigenization is another big one as well, and certainly it was very much so a trend. So I just rattle off a whole lot of things, and I don't want to necessarily cover everything, but I would also throw, we're just, I think, seeing the tip of the iceberg as to the impact of AI on the field. I think that's going to be very transformative, just as it is for everything else in education. And I will reserve my comments as to whether, in what ways that might be
00:11:19
Speaker
sometimes, yeah. Thank you, Nona. So Nona gave us a little bit of a glimpse of her perspective on what's happening right now. Lots of stuff I'm sure we could write articles and books about actually and have courses on. Brandon, from your perspective, and also I think fascinatingly enough, having spent time in two different countries, you know, where are we at in our profession? And then we'll move afterwards to like, what does this mean in 10, 20 years?
Adaptability and Future Outlook
00:11:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question. So my PhD is focused on higher ed, but what I study are students who access higher ed and their persistence through college and university, but also student affairs administration from the lens of organizational behavior. So not just the profession itself, but also the professionals of human resources issues and so on and so forth. So I'm looking at this from two lenses. And I think there's this new need for this newfound adaptability. We've always had to be adaptable, I think,
00:12:16
Speaker
in our careers since I started in 2008, like that's always been a word, sort of like burnout, like burnout's an area of research in higher ed and student affairs as early as the 60s and really a lot in the 80s and 90s. But if we think of the change that we're experiencing right now using Lewin's framework, Lewin's framework
00:12:36
Speaker
It's something I like. It's about, you know, the freeze of a change needing to happen, the thought when the change is actually happening itself. We're coming out of a really interesting freeze in thought and swimming through something that's really, you know, very new. And I agree with Nona that we're not out of the pandemic, but that's the change I'm referring to.
00:12:53
Speaker
And if you think about it, our students that are entering post-secondary education right now, for the most part, have spent their last years of high school very much in isolation. The new professionals that are joining us on our campuses, they're adapting to new careers, perhaps also coming from spaces of isolation. And we also have experienced professionals that might be feeling, let's get back to the status quo or let's tear it up and start it all over. So we're in this really watershed moment, in my opinion.
00:13:20
Speaker
And while we're navigating this ever-changing world around us, I argue that universities and colleges, as they were designed, were not necessarily built with any of this in mind. So I don't want to also forget everything we're seeing with enrollment patterns and what Nona was also referring to with budget constraints. And that's something that we're seeing not only in Canada, not only in Ontario,
00:13:42
Speaker
the rest of Canada, but also the United States as well. And I'm not meaning to sound negative, but I do think this is a very exciting and important time for student affairs as a profession, but also for campus leaders to revision how we do our work. And I mean this specifically not only in our functional areas, but broadly for the profession. And that's not only for Canada, but also for the US.
00:14:03
Speaker
And I equally value research and practice, and I do think we do need to look at research implications over time to not only just replicate what's been done and think of that as like, you know, the solution to our problems, but to really think of our campus context, not only where we're at, but where we're going as a specific campus, but also as our profession to figure out, you know, how do we need to adopt not only individually, but also as leaders, but also our programming, what's offered to students, and so on and so forth.
00:14:31
Speaker
So in short, I don't think the cookie cutter approach of how we're, you know, socialized into student affairs necessarily works the same way as it did in the past. And I think there's so much that we can dig in there and hopefully we do in the next question, but that will lead to a question later on for folks about innovation and how, like Brennan said, cookie cutter or, you know, the language of this is how it's always been done really doesn't fit anymore. Annette, I'm so excited that you're on this panel.
00:14:59
Speaker
because some of us have been in this for a decade or two, and as a newer professional that also brings a wealth of knowledge and experience, where are we at? What does student affairs as a profession look like to you, somebody who's within their first 10 years? I think we're in a good place. I do feel like I've been very fortunate in just that.
00:15:22
Speaker
so far I've been at two different institutions in my career and I've been very fortunate at both just to see how much of a student-centric approach the institutions have been taking or at least institutions I've been a part of so I think that's
00:15:37
Speaker
encouraging and hopeful to see and really trying to hear and amplify the voices of learners to meet their needs and to Nona's point or earlier of their intersectional identities and how we're really catering to our diverse student population and also how we're addressing the needs of our community in a holistic sense in terms of employees and folks that work at the institutions as well. So
00:16:04
Speaker
I feel hopeful and I think we are in a good place and I do see the efforts that are being translated not just through conversations but actual action items. So it's nice to see that on both like the policy level and all the way down to like programming and event coordination and things like that. So I feel hopeful, yes, to answer the question. Great, we can always use hope. So we've talked a little bit about, you know, where we think we are right now, lots of stuff
00:16:33
Speaker
was discussed from really looking at the student learner perspective, as Annette mentioned, from burnout to some of the research Brandon is doing, and Nona as well, intersectionality, diversity, coming out of or still living with the pandemic and COVID and really beginning to understand the impacts of
00:16:56
Speaker
this pandemic on not only our students but our staff as well and faculty so all of those wonderful things if hopefully you reflected prior to this podcast what does this mean for you to your own understanding in 10 or 20 years if you're looking or articulating the profession to somebody else where are we at in 20 years how do you see some of these challenges and opportunities manifest in 20
00:17:26
Speaker
48.
Professional Development and Support
00:17:27
Speaker
So what does the profession look like knowing what you know now? Brandon? So the first thing that I think of is again our socialization into the student affairs profession in the field of higher ed.
00:17:43
Speaker
When I say socialization, I think of, and Nona started talking about this at the very beginning, you know, these master's programs in the States, these masters of, you know, college student personnel or masters of student affairs. There's a lot of expectations and training that goes into the students in their one to two year journey, generally on campus, to really
00:18:12
Speaker
get them to understand and situate themselves in the profession. And I think that those types of standards are still important, but also need to be adapting to this changing landscape that we're in as a profession. I think in Canada, we have a huge opportunity to really think about that from the Canadian lens and the Canadian context.
00:18:35
Speaker
Um, and I think how we're socialized to do our work is going to be really key. And there's a lot of support I think that's offered not only through, you know, um, like caucus and ACPA and NASPA or regional housing associations for new professionals, but I think about what about the mid-level professional, whether they're an administrator or a leader or in a student affairs educator role.
00:19:02
Speaker
That group, like a mid-level administrator on a campus, makes up the majority of the human resources component on most campuses. So what is it that we're doing to support them to ensure that, you know, if we think of them as this like trunk of the tree, what are the mentorship and support opportunities for them
00:19:23
Speaker
to really help them sophisticated their understanding and really become strategic I think in terms of adapting to the changes that we're seeing. Whether that's related to enrollment, whether that's related to creative, creative solutions to budgets on campus.
00:19:38
Speaker
I think concentrating on that group is really important. I'm totally biased. I left my last student affairs role in that type of position. And I was able to seek out my own mentors. So that is also possible. But I do think there should be more professional development that's intentional or opportunities for strategic planning for that group to really help leaders above and those in the most senior student affairs position become creative with solution
00:20:07
Speaker
to these changing issues that we're aware of now, but are also going to evolve over time. Oh my gosh, so many wonderful things. And hopefully, Jen Hamilton and crew will also listen to this to hopefully inspire, I'm sure, some of the professional development that our association has been doing and can do. Annette, what are your thoughts? Where are you or where is the profession in 20 years from now? You've been in it for a few decades.
00:20:35
Speaker
What does it look like to you knowing what you know now? I'd say, and maybe even just feeding off of Brandon's point of professional development that's intentional and being creative with solution making on kind of shifting our perspective and understanding of how we view ourselves as service providers and understanding that we are also educators. And I feel like that can really
00:21:06
Speaker
aid in providing that wraparound and holistic approach in supporting learners, the collaborative approach that we all need, that connection and the bridging of gaps. And so I see it being more of a collective effort across the institution as opposed to folks working in silos, which can happen when we're so focused on our
00:21:31
Speaker
expertise in our areas and fields of work. And so I just see a lot more, I think, collaboration really to, again, address the needs of our learners and seeing them as whole people and then taking that approach as a community to provide that support, if that makes sense. Yes, completely. I see for folks we are recording this, so there's lots of nodding heads, lots of non-verbals in support of other folks' comments. Nona, you've been in this profession.
00:22:01
Speaker
a few years and maybe seen the profession shift in a variety of ways, maybe some expected, maybe some not based on what's happening in the world or the needs of our students. With that knowledge and in your role now and the research you've done, where are we in 20 years? What does this profession look like? What can we look forward to or what do we need to prepare ourselves for?
AI and Professionalization in Student Affairs
00:22:26
Speaker
Well, I'm mostly quite optimistic.
00:22:30
Speaker
just, you know, focusing on the sunny optimism, just in a general sort of way, as much as possible. I had mentioned at the beginning, AI, and as I said, I think we're just beginning to start to start to see how that's emerging. And I think both Brandon and Dyla mentioned that, you know, sorry, mentioned that we are educators as well as what I call frontline transactional workers, which is a very important role.
00:23:00
Speaker
But if you're sitting at a front desk with a lineup of students in front of you, I would say focus on professional development because I suspect that a lot of those transactional interactions probably will be taken over by AI. And I think what that's going to enable us is for us to focus in a really meaningful way of building stronger connections with students.
00:23:25
Speaker
So instead of just answering, you know, what's the drop deadline, we're then able to focus on how is a student doing and focus on coaching, you know, just sort of discerning what their goals are and whether they're meeting them, are they engaged with these
00:23:41
Speaker
And I think AIS could probably basically take care of a lot of the sort of what was called the bread work for us. And in fact, York already has an AI sort of response sort of active learning response spot ish thing, which is continually generating new knowledge for itself and is actually very effective for a lot of that. So one of the other things I think is really exciting is I'm going to call the reemergence of generalists.
00:24:10
Speaker
I think a lot of folks got really, really specialized, you know, in terms of specific fields and areas, whether it's residence life or counseling or accessibility services, which is important. And of course, in some of those areas, you need to have professional qualifications. But the idea of someone who has expertise broadly and is able to sort of talk broadly with students, I think is really, really wonderful and creating more of those positions.
00:24:40
Speaker
because I think we've talked about intersectionality and that there's so many different things that students are dealing with. And if they can focus on speaking with one person who is going to be able to provide 90% of the support that they need versus bouncing from office to office to see specialists to specialists, I think that's going to be really powerful. And then the other thing I'm really excited about is I'm really seeing a move towards better integration between
00:25:03
Speaker
the academic side of the house, and the co-curricular student services side of the house. And, you know, I've been in institutions where there was pretty much a wall between the two of them. This is the faculty's job, this is student fair's job, we do not, never the twain shall meet. But, you know, we're seeing so many faculty members who are working with students, who are dealing with major issues in their lives, and they want to know how to support those students.
00:25:28
Speaker
And they need to know what the resources are. And they want folks to come into their classrooms and talk about learning skills and talk about career development and talk about counseling and all those other great things. So I think that it helps enable us to build these resources, not just with students and student staff, but also with faculty members in order to be a much more supportive community environment. So that excites me quite a lot as well.
00:25:57
Speaker
And there's a piece selfishly that I'm excited with your hope or focus on the generalist as someone who is in a generalist middle management role for most of my career. So I'm excited for the reemergence of that. So Brandon, you mentioned this a little bit in the beginning and all of us have gone to school and done further education.
00:26:20
Speaker
What do the programs, if one chooses to participate in them or to do their master's or if one of us decide, or I think a few of us will are or will be teaching in a prep program or a master's program, looking at the future of this profession. What do they need to keep in mind? What do they need to change? What do they need to do to prepare us for the future that maybe exists or doesn't yet?
00:26:48
Speaker
Annette, I know you spoke a little bit about doing your master's in health promotion. And if you were to now participate with the knowledge that you have in a master's in student affairs or higher education, what do we need to teach the folks or what knowledge needs to transpire in these programs?
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't really know what exactly is being shared right now in some of these programs, but even just to Nona's last point of faculty and staff wanting to know how to support their students, I think it would be helpful to have some of those educational pieces around competencies, like human competencies and capacities on how we can connect with our community, with our students and with our colleagues as well.
00:27:36
Speaker
some level of mental health literacy, empathy training, cultural competencies, equity training, things along those lines.
00:27:47
Speaker
I think it would also be helpful for folks to be familiar with just different strategies and guidelines that are available on both national and local and global levels, like the National Standard, the Okanagan Charter, SDGs, things along those lines. I think that would be helpful. And this could very well already be implemented in these programs, but in case they aren't, I think these are important pieces to consider and to integrate for sure.
00:28:17
Speaker
Thank you. Lots of great things there. Nona, you've taught and maybe still are teaching in some of these programs. What do they need to know? What do we need to change? Well, I've taught in higher education or just sort of master's of education, not necessarily specifically in terms of student affairs, but I do know that, you know, Lori has developed a student affairs program. I think there's some other places that are in the process of it. I think
00:28:45
Speaker
If we're looking at that or teaching a general course, and I've taught things like student development theory with a certain amount of cynicism I might add, but also things like values in student affairs and educational practice and the story of justice and issues in post-secondary education, these are all really, really fun. And I think people are really hungry for this information. But for student affairs specific courses and programs,
00:29:10
Speaker
I actually want to say I think it's valuable to look to the United States because they've been doing it for a lot longer than we have. I think it's important not to just sort of take what's being done in the States and bring it up here. A big component of that is for a lot of American masters programs, because they are seen as an entry level qualification, they have built in practicums or internships, which I
00:29:31
Speaker
It's a great opportunity if you're not working full-time, but most of everybody that I know of who's doing their masters is also working full-time at some institution or another. So that's just not going to work for them. Are there some other ways that we could sort of make it more community-based learning? Things like that, absolutely. I think that that would be really cool. But I also think there are some courses in the States and in Canada which are quite
00:29:57
Speaker
critical thinking and really focused on things like inclusivity and equity. I think that having that lens, particularly that lens around access, is really important for Canadian student affairs. Most, if not all, the folks I know in Canadian student affairs are passionately working towards inclusivity and making sure that students are not disadvantaged in any way and that we're trying to reduce as many systemic barriers as we can.
00:30:25
Speaker
And I think that that's a really key component of any Canadian Student Affairs program. So hopefully those listening, those are some wonderful takeaways from Nona on what we can be doing. Brandon, what are your thoughts?
00:30:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think my answer is going to be a bit more nontraditional. So my master's was at OYZ in the higher ed program, but I did the leadership cohort program. So it's a very tailored and designed course.
00:30:59
Speaker
based approach similar to what we'd see in like a student affairs or higher ed master's program in the US. So you only get I think it was like three a la carte options for your electives. And for me and what I wanted, that was exactly I think important and right. It really opened my eyes to research and how to get engaged with research because that's what I wanted to do at some point. But I didn't think I'd ever leave my full time job to do and my PhD full time.
00:31:29
Speaker
So I think I want to say that when people are thinking about programs, before we think about what needs to change in the programs, it's about what do you want and what are you hoping to get from the experience. And I think that when we think of the different contexts,
00:31:45
Speaker
especially in the very well-known master's programs in the United States or the fewer well-known programs that we offer in Canada, they're all so different. They're all so unique. I remember thinking, why do I have to take this, like, economics course and this budgeting class? And that's still something I draw from all of the time from my master's experience, and not all master's programs offer that.
00:32:10
Speaker
So I think I'm answering the question backwards. It's really like, what is the individual looking for? Because there's also nontraditional ways that students, meaning we're all students, people who are wanting to learn more about the work that we do can take nontraditional ways to, I think, improve their work and their knowledge. Some of the more before my master's program, some of the more creative experiences I had were
00:32:35
Speaker
completing the project management fundamentals training through the Project Management Institute. That really helped me, I think, be a better leader and a better, a more organized person working in higher ed. But then I also think of back to the generalization or generalized approach to a very specific approach. There's the Conrad Grable programs. I completed the transformative mediation, alternative dispute resolution,
00:33:00
Speaker
and so on and so forth. And I thought that's because I wanted to go the conduct route. I didn't in the end, but a lot of the skills I learned in those non-traditional programs are what's informed me on even how I approach and look at research. So I think we're talking about master's programs or graduate programs, but there's lots of different alternative credentials that can also, I think, add value to the work that we're doing.
00:33:26
Speaker
Thank you for that. And I appreciate the flipping it or looking at it slightly differently. I agree. I talk to a lot of students who just say, I need to have a master's. I'm like, OK, but why? And what do you want to do? And how do you want to learn about it? So thank you for your points. I want to make sure that we have enough time for our rapid fire questions at the end and looking at the time. So I'm going to combine our last question. I did share with folks the article
00:33:55
Speaker
Um, or our host shared it with us from George Kudawit and Luderman back in 2020 September. So we can all take a moment and remember where we were in September, 2020. And a point that they talked about in this article for folks that haven't read it is really the importance of innovation within our
Innovation and Student Voices
00:34:13
Speaker
field. So thinking outside the box. So I want to, as kind of the last big question, ask you.
00:34:20
Speaker
What is one area we really need to innovate in our profession as we look towards the future? And is there a way that caucus can support this innovation? Brandon, are you comfortable going first?
00:34:35
Speaker
Sure. So I think when we hear innovation, we always think like big transformational. And I actually think of it more as like what's something we could change or build from. And I think we're in a space where we can work with what we've got. Unit mentioned earlier the competency framework. And I think that there's a lot of work that went into developing the caucus competencies built from the NASPA and ACPA competencies.
00:35:02
Speaker
And I think that revisiting that and building from what currently exists can be incredibly helpful to help folks understand what interests them. What is it about the generalized approach to our profession that's exciting? What is more specific in terms of their own competency and knowledge development that can also grow from concentrating on that? And I think it can be used as a tool of development that can really change the way we're thinking about our work and can build from
00:35:32
Speaker
something that already exists. So that's something I would encourage and can be used more than like this, like, you know, human resources checkbox performance review tool and being facetious. But I think it really can be truly developmental. And that's something that can also create a shared common language for folks who are all part of the same professional organization. Thank you for that. Annette, what do you think we can innovate in this field?
00:36:01
Speaker
And can our professional association help with that? Yeah, Brandon, I'm glad you mentioned that because usually when people say innovation, I am the first person to think of like big transformational ideas. So I'm really glad you mentioned the points that you said about just how much we can do already by just rebuilding on what currently exists even.
00:36:24
Speaker
And I've only been connected with caucus for the past two years since twenty one, twenty, twenty one. So I think I've already seen a lot of what the community has to offer for student affairs, opportunities where we can learn and grow together and even just networking and the support and mentorship that's available and provided. And so I guess kind of using those platforms and spaces to, again, amplify student voices and to talk and
00:36:54
Speaker
yeah, discuss about exchange knowledge on how we can really meet our learners where they are and keep up with what's happening. And I think, yeah, I think we're doing a lot already that we can build off of. So I think that would be my response is just to continue the direction in which we're heading. Amazing. And Nona,
00:37:22
Speaker
with your knowledge and wisdom and expertise? I'm not sure about that, Steph. But yeah, I think it is completely right as well. I'm going to veer a little bit slightly in a different direction. I've been saying since, because you brought up 2020, if we think about March 2020 and how in really a matter of a week and a half,
00:37:46
Speaker
We completely transformed how we do post-secondary education, including student affairs. This was not a week and a half that I would ever want to revisit, but most places reopened virtually, usually within a couple of weeks of shutting down. With a completely transformed system, it was very scared of our teeth.
00:38:07
Speaker
That totally gives the light to the idea that post-secondary institutions are slow to adapt or that there's change resistance or all of those other sorts of things. Those are true on a day-to-day basis. But I think that really demonstrated to me that, especially in student affairs, we are just so nimble when it comes to being able to see something that either is a significant issue that we need to address
00:38:31
Speaker
or is something that we can seize onto in order to be able to deliver better supports for students. So I think that that sort of thing can be really exciting and that's where I sort of got my point or when I was making some thoughts on this in terms of areas around innovation. I think we're again on the scratch on the surface when it comes to being able to deliver services virtually.
00:39:01
Speaker
AI will help with that, certainly 24-7 chatbots will help with that, all of those sorts of things. But I think particularly for students who are studying remotely, this is gonna tremendously improve access. And if I think about the folks in the North, including a lot of indigenous communities for whom accessing post-secondary education is incredibly difficult, all of a sudden I think things are gonna be wide open. I know everybody was in a hurry to get back in person, but I think we really do need to,
00:39:31
Speaker
the public education system. Think about how we're going to be delivering education online to folks who might find it difficult to attend in person, especially when you're talking about things like housing crunches and so on. So, you know, that's, again, a huge topic area. So I'm just going to dump that in.
00:39:52
Speaker
and should be thinking about because I think that it's it again is transformative for students. I'll also add I think for a number of students that makes being able to access student services and student support much easier because they are actually very very reluctant to walk into an office but are much more comfortable hopping onto a Zoom call so I'm happy about that. So I want to take a minute just to say thank you we have one last kind of fun rapid fire piece
00:40:22
Speaker
But I even listening to all of this and not having discussed all of this with all of you before, I'm writing
Closing Reflections and Gratitude
00:40:29
Speaker
things down. I'm inspired for what is to come because I think there are some moments where I get into that thinking of like, what is happening? And so, Nona, I just really appreciate that perspective shifting on how nimble we really are in 2020. Like we were working together at that time and we really switched within, I would say 32 hours from a
00:40:51
Speaker
Monday afternoon to Wednesday, we were back on. And so that is such a lovely reminder and an inspiring takeaway. For folks that don't know us personally, I always want to believe that we are way more than our positions and what you've heard today. So I want to take a moment to do some rapid fire questions inspired the one
00:41:10
Speaker
by the one and only Dr. Brene Brown. If you don't know who she is, please look her up immediately. And so we're going to do some quick questions one at a time. Folks know the questions ahead of time, because I don't want to create a space of anxiety and panic with one fun one in the end. So I'm going to go Brandon and Annette Nona in that order every single time. So folks know. All right, Brandon, what's your jam right now? What's your song? What are you belting out or listening to?
00:41:38
Speaker
I'm on a constant flow of writing and it's Fleetwood Mac that has been like the best anthology or I turned to house music. So it changes depending on the day. I would love to see if there's different chapters you're writing to those different soundtracks. Unet, what's your jam? Snooze by SZA. I exercise regularly and that's always the song that I start off with and to start my shuffle for my exercise.
00:42:08
Speaker
And we'll listen to that after, because I know who that is, but I don't know the song. No, no, what do you got listening to? Or what are you listening to? So I was laughing because I was watching Trevor Noah's new documentary. And the song has been in my head ever since, because he was talking about Sweet Caroline as being the top five things white people like. And the reason why that's also associated with caucus is because at one point, I don't think we're entirely so we're Neil Bedell and I submitted a caucus karaoke.
00:42:38
Speaker
on the basis that if we sing that, everybody else will join in and nobody will be able to hear us, which was probably a good thing. Well, I look forward to it in 2025 in the East Coast when we're gosh knows where to listen to you and Neil sing.
00:42:55
Speaker
All right, because I'm a nerd and I'm always reading, what book have you read that's impacted your practice? It can be a children's book, it can be a textbook, it can be something completely outside of this field. Brandon, what would you recommend to folks? What book?
00:43:10
Speaker
I'm looking forward to reading some different topics soon. So I'm going to stick to the profession. Creating Sustainable Careers and Student Affairs, edited by Dr. Sally at University of Buffalo. It's fantastic and it helps, I think, those in various roles of student affairs at different seniority levels, think about the profession differently and sustainability differently. Oh, writing that one down. Unette, what book would you recommend to folks listening?
00:43:39
Speaker
Mine would be my current read. It's called Do Less. It's a minimalist guide. So it's all about like scaling back on our possessions and treatments and everything to improve our quality of life, which of course translates in every aspect of our work and where we show up. Love it. What about you, Nona?
00:43:58
Speaker
One that I sort of go back to over and over again is reframing campus conflict, which is student conduct practice through the lens of inclusive excellence, which is edited by reading Jennifer Mayer's Fregi, and I'm hoping I'm pronouncing this right, and Nancy Giacomini. It introduces a sort of spectrum model to approaches to student conduct and really does
00:44:21
Speaker
start to at least acknowledge that people's context and position, it was going to probably influence how they manage conflict. And that has been really important for me, and I really, really appreciate it, how they laid the whole thing out, strongly recommend it. I think it's a transformative book for a lot of folks. So hopefully folks have at least one, if not three, new books to purchase.
00:44:51
Speaker
Other question, I'm a big believer that our students, or at least for me, teach me all the wonderful things and are my best teachers. So Brandon, what's a great question a student has asked you? One that has stayed in your mind.
00:45:04
Speaker
I think one that really re-centered how I looked at the work I was doing was a student at TMU that asked if they take a break, is it okay for them to come back and how do they do that? And they did. So that's not something I always thought about in our work and still stays with me. Thank you.
00:45:27
Speaker
Um, when I receive a lot and one of my favorites is just how do I get involved? Um, knowing that there's such a need for like connection and then just being able to provide that opportunity for them to get involved and be involved. Yeah. I love being asked that. Wonderful. And Nona, what question or questions have stayed in your mind or in your heart the last little bit?
00:45:49
Speaker
This one's probably about 20 years old, but it was Residence Dawn, who was feeling a little annoyed with me because we were in the middle of Residence Dawn training and she said, the problem with you, Nona, which I love it when people start with that, is that you want us to be counselors and cops at the same time. If you knock on a student's door, they don't know why we're there, they're not going to answer the door. And for me, it was like, oh, that's a good point. Okay.
00:46:15
Speaker
Why don't we ditch the cop part? And what would it look like if you were just there to support students? And that completely changed our approach to residence life. So it was a very interesting little statement. Well, those are so good. I love the student questions. And my last one, because I'm all about gratitude and infusing some happiness and joy in our lives, I would like you all to just shout out somebody that you want to show some gratitude with in the field and just someone you want to appreciate in this moment.
00:46:44
Speaker
So Nona, could you go first? And this one, folks, they did not know. But I assume this podcast may be released in February. I know February has a connotation of being the month of love, but we should show love and appreciation and gratitude all year round in this field. So Nona, who do you want to give a shout out to some love and some appreciation within our field?
00:47:07
Speaker
Right. Well, Stephanie, you did not tell me this question in advance. So I can easily embarrass you by my answer because I want to give you a shout out because Stephanie didn't really talk about herself very much at the beginning with this, but she's a true scholar practitioner and also one of the most caring and thoughtful and intelligent and compassionate professionals I know. And I really, really miss not working with her day over day.
00:47:36
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Well, that's it. No, I'm just joking. Thank you, Nona. I deeply appreciate it. And we miss you here terribly. Brandon, who do you want to shout out? The first two people that came to mind are part of the earliest foundational parts of my career. First is Tony Conte, who I'm pretty, he's still at Toronto Metropolitan University. If I didn't hear him speak, I would never have thought of this as a profession.
00:48:04
Speaker
Here I am today studying it. And Janet Miller, she's a psychologist at Mount Royal University, one of the first people I met when I had moved to Alberta. And she told me that a PhD is possible and to get that idea out of my head that I would never do my master's and I would never do my PhD. And she's a dear friend. They're both dear friends today and I'd like to acknowledge their support. That's amazing. Thank you. Annette, who do you want to shout out?
00:48:35
Speaker
I would shout out my two direct supervisors that I've worked with. And again, this is also the foundational beginning.
00:48:45
Speaker
stages of my career as well. So they've been incredibly impactful and supportive and just the work that I've done and how I am able to work. And so Kim Berrigan, the department head of athletics and recreation and student life at Selkirk College over in BC and Vinaya Darshan, the manager of wellness education and programs at Humber here in Toronto. Well, hopefully those folks will listen or people that know them will tell them to listen to this podcast. Thank you for leaning into vulnerability and being okay.
00:49:15
Speaker
with sharing someone that you want to give a shout out and some love to. So for folks listening, that's it. Hopefully you've learned at least one new thing or been inspired by something that one of our fabulous panelists have said. That's always my learning outcome. So I think we've achieved that. I know I have. Thanks folks for listening in.
00:49:35
Speaker
We hope that this was inspiring for you to put in some of the work and the innovation and what is needed in this field. It is so very important, the work that we do. I am of the belief that we do change lives, just one conversation at a time. So thanks for listening. Hopefully this sparks a conversation and stay tuned for more episodes from Caucus 50. Have a great day, everyone.
00:50:17
Speaker
The Caucus 50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organization's 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by Sean Fast, Adam Kuehn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Mulettoller, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Jean Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret De Leon,
00:50:47
Speaker
and Becca Gray. Intro and outro music is courtesy of Alexei Stryapji. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler colonial name, Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. Miigwetch.