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CACUSS and the CoP Model
93 Plays1 year ago
This episode our on-air host Rachel Barreca is joined by David Newman, Janet Mee, and Jennifer Hamilton as we explore the topic of CACUSS and the CoP Model. We hope that you enjoy and choose to follow along as we release a number of episodes geared towards celebrating our past, present, and future as an organization.
About:
The CACUSS 50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organization's 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada.
The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by: Sean Fast, Adam Kuhn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Muehlethaler, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret de Leon, and Becca Gray. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler-colonial name, Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. For more information on the territories you may reside on, visit: https://native-land.ca/
Credits:
Music: Expanding the Limits | Performed by Audiorezout & Written by Oleksii Striapchyi | Stock Media provided by Audiorezout / Pond5
Podcast Cover Art by: Ravi Gabble (UTM)
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Transcript
Introduction of podcast and guests
00:00:20
Speaker
Hi there. Welcome to the Caucus 50 podcast. My name is Rachel Bereca and I'm your host today. And I'm very, very excited to let you know that I am sharing this conversation today with Jennifer Hamilton, Janet Mee and
Evolution and future of the Caucus's communities of practice
00:00:35
Speaker
David Newman. And we're going to talk about Caucus and the communities of practice model that we've adopted in the last, let's say 10 years or so.
00:00:43
Speaker
from maybe start to finish or start to now, and just talk a little bit about why it happened, why the change happened, what the change was, and where we're going. So welcome to you all. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello. Well, it's really great to have you here. And obviously, you all come with different perspectives and knowledge about the experience that our organization went through when we created the Communities of Practice model.
History and independence of Caucus divisions
00:01:13
Speaker
And so let's start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start and talk a little bit about what were the divisions in caucus that were in place prior to the implementation of the community of practice model? Who wants to go? Okay, Jennifer, why don't you start us off as executive director of the organization?
00:01:32
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that's really interesting is that, you know, through caucus's history from the time we were founded, we were really a federation of organizations. And so as the organization evolved in the 70s and 80s and 90s, we continued this federated model. And so at the beginning of sort of the 2010s, when caucus was, you know, a burgeoning organization and hired its first staff
00:02:01
Speaker
we had six divisions of caucus. And those divisions functioned as sort of pseudo independent organizations that were under the umbrella of caucus. And that independence also was one of the drivers of, well, I wouldn't say I'm a significant driver, but it was partially a driver of some of that change. And I'd like to test David and Janet to see if they can name the six divisions that were in place in 2012. So I'm going to say KUKA, CADSP,
00:02:33
Speaker
Oh, shoot. Now, where am I going to go from there? Sasa. Okay, David, help me out. I got three. I can get the other three. NASA, Couch, and IK's job, which I know had changed names over time. But yeah, so those were the six. Yeah.
00:02:53
Speaker
Those are like big acronyms. Can we spell those out? So counseling services, the health folks, they were the couch folks, right? We're a couch. SASO was the Student Affairs Division. NASA was our Indigenous Student Services colleagues. And CASB was the disability group. Now I missed one, who'd I miss?
00:03:20
Speaker
case, Joe, which was judicial affairs. And I think what was really interesting was it was really SASA. So the Student Affairs Division was this huge division that encompassed, I would say, I think, if I remember correctly, more than half of the association. And then there were these other divisions that had equal sort of organizational status, but had
00:03:44
Speaker
fewer resources, fewer people, and less capacity to really achieve the objectives or the work of those divisions. So it was, while they were equal on paper, they were very much split in terms of their capacity and their membership.
Reasons for shift to communities of practice
00:04:04
Speaker
Well, Matt, that actually comes to a follow-up question I have, is like, why did we choose to move away from having divisions to communities of practice?
00:04:13
Speaker
I hear one potential reason there in terms of equaling things out a little bit. And maybe I could just add, because I do think the resourcing was a major driver. I mean, there's a number of others, but it really was a major driver. And for a little bit background, I was one of the last presidents of SASA as well. So SASA, as the student affairs organization, it always felt like it was when we were sitting on the board
00:04:42
Speaker
Everybody knew that SASA had all these resources and all the other divisions had no resources. Yet it was still a challenge, I think, for each of the divisions to figure out how to use their resources effectively. Because I think the smaller divisions didn't have enough to do what they wanted to do. And SASA was so big and so broad in a lot of ways that it didn't know what to do with the money it had. And so it was a bit of a resource issue that I think was
00:05:09
Speaker
was certainly one of the drivers. Of course, there's many others that led towards thinking about how can we think about this differently? Jennifer, would you add anything in there or Janet about reasons for the change? I'm happy to jump in. I think as a board member and probably just as an individual, I do think I'm sort of known as a federalist.
00:05:34
Speaker
politically, right? That I do believe that there is a value in a national voice. And one of the things that was really missing for caucus was that national voice. We had no capacity to identify issues that crossed all of those divisional responsibilities, and also no ability to really champion a single issue.
00:06:00
Speaker
as an organization. We had to rely on like we had divisions who were speaking to federal politicians as if they were an independent organization and not actually representing the voice of caucus. So there was no true voice of caucus at a time when there was a tremendous need for a national organization who could represent
00:06:23
Speaker
critical issues across student affairs. And so, like, certainly I think the financial piece was one of the symptoms of it, but largely we just had no capacity to operate as a national organization. Yeah, I think, and to build on what Janet and David had already said, I think one of the pieces that
00:06:47
Speaker
was also a driver was we had published the caucus identity project. So the leaders and learning document in 2011, 2012, and it sparked a number of conversations amongst our members about who we were as an organization, what values we held and where we wanted to go in the future. And so I think those kind of those deep conversations as a community, as a collective really helped us frame some questions that the board had to grapple with.
00:07:16
Speaker
Another really big driver for us was the fact that the not-for-profit legislation had changed. And so we were on a timeline. Every not-for-profit corporation in Canada was on a timeline to update their bylaws to be in line with the legislation by 2014. And so, you know, one of the things that we had structurally as an organization was we had seven, I think seven appointed directors to our board. It was a 15 person board.
00:07:46
Speaker
those board members were appointed because they were presidents of their divisions. But legally, under the new legislation, we wouldn't have been allowed to operate under that appointed structure. And so we had this opportunity to look at our bylaws in the context of the conversations we were having about our identity and say, how do we want to align our values and who we want to be as an organization with the legislation and these other drivers that
00:08:15
Speaker
that Janet and David had mentioned.
Advantages and flexibility of the COP model
00:08:17
Speaker
And so having the divisional structure wasn't as nimble as I think we wanted to be looking towards the future. They were rigid structures. They were rigid organizations within the organization. They each had a board. They each had bylaws. And I think that the community of practice model really made us think about ways in which we could be more responsive to the future of who we were gonna be as an association.
00:08:42
Speaker
It occurs to me that one of the benefits as well of moving into this model is that it allows for a lot more interdisciplinarity, right? You no longer are just a health promotions person or a counseling person, but those voices are having conversations with the leadership educators and the residence life people and the careers folks and
00:09:05
Speaker
our students lives are completely holistic that way. So it's actually allowed us to be a little bit more holistic. I'm seeing some nods, would you agree? Yeah, I'll just make a quick comment on that as well. I think once we while we were creating the community of practice model, which took us a while to get there. And I know we'll talk about that a little bit later. But it also allowed the opportunity for
00:09:32
Speaker
people to join whichever community practice they wanted to join. In our previous model, you were, by virtue of setting up your membership, a member of caucus, and you could have a primary or secondary membership with a division, but now it does allow for that breadth so that somebody who is a health educator could go to a leadership educator's event or activity in a COP, and certainly with a lot more COPs, it also
00:10:00
Speaker
creates more of that interdisciplinary as well. I totally agree and I think one of our ambitions was to really shift the work of the organization so that we were much more focused on
00:10:16
Speaker
the work of student affairs and less on the operation of the association. So it was quite freeing, right, to move from the divisional model, we hope at least to move from the divisional model, where the boards of each of those divisions was really running an organization. So they had their own board of directors, they had their own finance committee, they had all of these administrative processes that they had to go through. And at the end of the day,
00:10:42
Speaker
in order to do that well, they forfeited the ability to actually focus on the work of that division or that association or caucus as a whole. And so I think David's right, like we really got to this place where we could flip it so that we had one board of directors that was really focused on the work of the association, keeping the mechanics and the business of the association going, keeping a strategic direction, and then the communities of practice could come together in
00:11:13
Speaker
multiple iterations to think about the work itself. And I do think that's led to a much more intersectional approach. People can move from division to division. They take that knowledge and that passion back and forth with them as they go. And I think I hope that the kind of conversations and the sense of community is much stronger in this model than it might have been in the divisional model. One other quick comment I wanted to make, Rachel, is too, is that
00:11:42
Speaker
You know, there's been calls for our work to be de-siloed for a really long time. I think it was Paul Gilmour who was a former vice provost at the university. Well, if we wrote a paper for caucus, I think it was in 1985 or 1986 talking about the holistic nature of our work, right? Yet our own organization, our own national association was structured as the siloed organization. And I think as we began to start to have conversations
00:12:12
Speaker
for example, around student mental health, that is sort of like, okay, well, that's the counselor's issue, mental health, right? And I think in the beginning of the late 2000s, you know, 2008, 2009, we started looking at some of these issues as not as a silent issue. Campus mental health, student mental health was everybody's concern, was something that we all needed training and learning in and knowledge about.
00:12:37
Speaker
those conversations and then we were able to spark kind of a national project on post-secondary student mental health because we started to break down those silos. So I think it was also a reflection of where we were going in our work to sort of say, just because you're a student who experiences a barrier due to a disability, it's not only that office that has to support that student, it's all of us. So yeah, I think that was a real important conversation as well.
00:13:04
Speaker
So the evolution of the organization matches the evolution of our field and the evolution of higher education in the country as well, which is a good thing. We should be doing that. I'm curious to hear about how this came about and why a community of practice model, you know, were you looking at, you know,
00:13:27
Speaker
theoretical reasons for that? Were you looking at Leeuwen Wenger's model and theory around that? Or was it from another professional association that we took it or something else, combinations of those things? I can jump in and I know David and Janet probably have lots of things to say about this, but I think within SASA, which was the Student Affairs Division, the largest division at the time, they were experimenting a little bit with the idea of communities of practice.
00:13:55
Speaker
that division started the leadership educators part of that. And they had also over the years had a new professionals group and a peer leaders group that kind of emerged out of that larger group. So there was a need or a desire to have these smaller groupings where people could gather together with shared ideas. And so definitely the COP model was something that we
00:14:22
Speaker
I think intrigued us in terms of how can we break down the structures and make them more nimble and responsive to the member needs.
Pilot projects and initial challenges
00:14:29
Speaker
So we did bring in some of that theoretical piece. We had folks like Tricia Seifert come in and talk to our board and our divisional leaders about what a community of practice was and whether or not it fit those kind of philosophical pieces. We also experimented a little bit at some of the conferences with this idea of birds of a feather.
00:14:51
Speaker
We gathered together folks who shared interests to have these informal conversations that weren't presentations, but were more just, let's get together. I'm an orientation professional or I'm interested in orientation. Let's get together for an hour during the conference. So that was a bit of a pilot of what that future model could look like. I don't have much else to add, but I totally forgot about the birds of a feather. So thanks for reminding me of that. Janet?
00:15:18
Speaker
I do. I think Jennifer's summary is spot on. And I had also forgotten about the birds of the feather. I mean, actually, it's amazing how much I had forgotten about until I got invited to do this podcast and had to go back and look at some documents. I think as much as the communities of practice were a model that was in play, I think we were also open to whatever structure would work for the organization that would
00:15:48
Speaker
work towards the goals that we had set. So I think although I think at times we kind of roamed through the process of organizational change and maybe didn't follow any sort of set structure around how we would get to where we were going, we were very principled in the decisions we were making. So we had a goal.
00:16:11
Speaker
We had a set of outcomes that we were driving towards. And we remained kind of open through the consultation process to what that structure would look like as we move forward. And it was certainly a bit of a roller coaster ride to get from where we started to where we are today. But I do remember that Sasa had some really good strength
00:16:40
Speaker
in their community as a practice model and that certainly was one of the places that we looked to. And maybe I will add just one piece because you reminded me Janet of the consultation process as we were going through the decision making for a new structure and we did create a number of strategic committees that I think were really important in getting there that lasted over a number of years
00:17:05
Speaker
including a Models and Decision Making Committee, a Communications and Consultation Committee, and also a committee just to keep things going as we were trying to navigate where we were going for the future. We weren't especially clever in the naming of our committees.
00:17:22
Speaker
Listen, if it works and it tells people what you are and what you're doing, that's good. I'm curious to know what some of the ups and downs on that roller coaster were. Are there any particular big dips that made your stomach fall out that you can think of and also some really great peaks that you're like, oh, we're on the right track? When we were at the conference this year, I was reminded about a couple of, I think, maybe assumptions and
00:17:52
Speaker
moments for me, at least as in my time as president. And one was actually the first board meeting where we were talking about the organizational change. And I don't remember the dynamics and I don't remember the players and I don't remember what was contentious. But I do remember the anxiety that I felt over the stress that was in that room. Like it was palpable.
00:18:18
Speaker
And I remember on the last day I have this necklace that my parents gave me and it's an antique necklace and the story behind it is one of kindness and generosity and I wear it often if I'm feeling tired and I'm hoping to just remind myself that I should be a kind and generous person or you know quietly if I'm hoping to invoke
00:18:41
Speaker
kindness and generosity and others. And I kind of just hold it and hope that they get the vibe from the necklace. And I remember telling the story of that meeting because I was just so overwhelmed by the tension in the room and I just could not see a way forward. And I think that moment for me at least broke some of that tension for a period of time. I mean, it came back time and time again, but it was hard for people to let go of a structure that had been in place.
00:19:09
Speaker
for like close to 25 years, I think, or more at that point. And to give up that autonomy and to release your ability to drive an association forward and hand it over to a board of directors that was going to now be an elected board of directors was a hard thing for the organization to do. And it took us a lot of time and it took a lot of patience, I think.
00:19:38
Speaker
emotion that Janet is speaking about, I think speaks a couple of things. It speaks the fact that people really care about this organization. And that's always been true, I think, throughout our history, that people are very, you know, attached to their identity within caucus. And I think that we underestimated that for some folks, they also held that same attachment to their division. And so I think we anticipated that
00:20:07
Speaker
for NASA, I think because just I think that the personal identity tied in with the identity of that division. I think we anticipated it there, but we didn't anticipate it with some of the other divisions that that were resistant to kind of moving forward. You know, there was a sense that someone was going to lose something. And, you know, I remember that moment. I remember that necklace, Janet. I think that
00:20:35
Speaker
you know, one of the things that that Janet under her leadership, and I mean, all the board at the time, was that there really was a genuine commitment to consultative conversations, right? And so really listening to every voice that was in that room, I remember exactly where we were, we were at Hardhouse at the University of Toronto, and on the second floor. And I, you know, I, that day stands out for me as well, because I think that
00:21:05
Speaker
people were quite passionate about the conversations we were having. And there was a lot of emotion attached to the decisions and not just in that moment throughout that sort of four or five year conversations that we had. So it was both a positive thing, but also a very challenging thing for us to navigate. And I think like any change that organizations go through, and Rachel, you know this, you just went through this at TMU with your name change.
00:21:31
Speaker
You think that you're there and then all of a sudden you realize that you've missed something or that there was a voice that wasn't heard or you misinterpreted a conversation and you had to take a few steps back and go follow that path again. So it was a really great learning experience for me in my first few years in this role as executive director for sure. David, any thoughts? I mean, they both explained it so well. And I do remember that meeting very well.
00:21:59
Speaker
as well. And I do, you know, one of the things I was reflecting on, and I think Jennifer just just said it really well was sort of the changing and evolving opinions that came from people. And so sometimes we really felt like people were moving in one direction and then then their perspective had changed. And there's a lot of good reasons why they had changed. And they got feedback from new people, heard new voices, you know, the same kind of thing. And so
00:22:29
Speaker
Sometimes that back and forth, there were these moments where I thought, are we going to actually be able to make a change that we need to? And in some cases, going back to what Jennifer was talking about before, we had legislation that we had to make some sort of change. But we also had the work that was done through the identity project and other things that were just happening in our work that we really did need to make that change. And I do think there was
00:22:57
Speaker
really strong goodwill across the board for us to move forward and make that change. I think it was just the process to get there and making sure that we were giving adequate process to the most significant change we've experienced as an organization. I think one of the things that I think we should be probably most proud of or at least proud of is we got really good
00:23:24
Speaker
at taking a deep breath and taking a big step back.
Managing change and increasing involvement
00:23:28
Speaker
Like that, and that was hard at first, right? Because you're like, we do have a time when we need to get there. But at the end of the day, I don't think we dragged anyone across the finish line. Like, I think people walked on their own tuition across that finish line, proud of where we got to. And then there was dissenters for sure. But as an organization, we made it together.
00:23:50
Speaker
And I think it was those big leaps backwards, those, okay, we forgot this piece or we didn't think about this approach or this issue that got us to the end in a healthy way.
00:24:06
Speaker
Well, let's talk a little bit now, you know, this model has been implemented now for close to a decade or so. What are some of the outcomes that you've observed as a result of this shift to this model? We've talked a lot about the process of getting there, but what have you noticed since it's been adopted and we've let it kind of breathe and live a little bit? David, do you want to start us off there? Sure, yeah. And I'd like to start by saying I can't believe that was still almost 10 years ago.
00:24:35
Speaker
It just seems like it was yesterday in a lot of ways, but it also seems like there's been a lot of good establishment with the COP model and the new organization for caucus. So just when I hear that, it's sort of shocking. But one of the things I would say that I noticed that was, I sort of suspected would be the case, but when you actually see it in action, it's really, really, I think a good thing for us to see is,
00:25:05
Speaker
the number of members who are involved in more leadership roles across the organization is through the roof. I think when we're at the annual conference or the AGM and you see the slides where the list of the people who are involved as co-chairs or chairs of the various COPs, we didn't have that before. And I think just sort of going back to Janet's comment earlier about
00:25:32
Speaker
the ability for the COPs to actually do the work instead of the governance of the organization. So really thinking about how we're going to advance the profession across Canada. There are so many people leading the way in getting the membership, what they need. And so that's just been a remarkable change that I'm very happy to see. Jen, what about you? What have you noticed? Yeah, I mean, I think that
00:26:02
Speaker
That our communities of practice model, you know, we put a lot of thought into how principal thought in terms of how structured or unstructured we wanted it to be. We wanted it to the structure to be nimble. I think that, you know, there, there is definitely some support needed. I think we underestimated.
00:26:25
Speaker
the amount of staff support that was required to really uphold those COPs and help them get the work done. Every one of our community of practice leaders is a volunteer with the organization and holds full time jobs. So it's, you know, it is, I think that ebb and flow in terms of just how active those communities are. And it's, so we've seen some communities that have continued to be super active and some which are a little bit more dormant
00:26:54
Speaker
And I think that that's partly the point is that there's a need and there's a desire or there's that energy there. And if it wanes a little bit, that's part of the nimbleness. It's like, let it rest for a couple of years and see if there's passion to bring that back. Definitely during COVID, I would say that the COP model really flourished. I mean, we used to be in this place where the communities of practice would gather once a year at the conference.
00:27:24
Speaker
they would do the odd thing kind of in between and definitely would do some projects or knowledge generation, knowledge sharing, but just the invention of Zoom and the ability for folks to connect and support one another during that sort of two and a half year, three year period really, I think helped a lot of the COPs flourish in that time. And so I think that there's an opportunity, we were in the process of doing a five year review,
00:27:52
Speaker
when COVID hit, and we put that on pause, I do think there's an opportunity for us to revisit and assess where we've come, maybe as we start to approach the 10-year mark. And in particular, if we think about the ways in which we support those communities, what resources they need to be successful, those are some of the reflections that I've had. Janet, what about you?
Content opportunities and future engagement
00:28:19
Speaker
Wins, challenges?
00:28:21
Speaker
I think for me, I mean, it's interesting because as I stepped off the board, I really became one of the many members of the organization. And so my view now of the communities of practice is really as a consumer, like a member of the organization. And what I see is a lot more content coming across my desk, right? So there's a lot more conversations, there's a lot more content, there's a lot more
00:28:52
Speaker
sort of thought provoking dialogue on and opportunities for professional development. So I feel like I know there's a lot of work that goes into that, but I feel like I see less about the management of the organization and more about the work of student affairs in this new model. And I certainly felt it at the conference, right? There was so many different sessions you could go to, and there was so much intersection and overlap between the topics.
00:29:22
Speaker
Great. I can tell you just even from purely from being a member perspective, this new model allowed for a small group of us at the conference just last week, who are in these strategic initiatives, project manager type roles that seem to be popping up.
00:29:40
Speaker
um, have an informal conversation. We're not ready to be a COP by the way, but, um, you know, we exchanged email addresses and we're going to just have a conversation about how we can support each other and what we can learn from each other. And what I could see is the potential down the road for that nimbleness to turn into a COP that would still allow for, um, maybe a little bit more infrastructure support and all that kind of stuff. Maybe as.
00:30:09
Speaker
this becomes a bit more of a common role in our student affairs divisions. But yeah, like that, it was, I think, if we'd been thinking in the old divisional model, I don't know whether that kind of idea would have come to us quite as quickly, maybe, maybe, but I think that there's some, there's some
00:30:28
Speaker
Something about the COP model that can allow us to dream in that kind of way, maybe, I don't know. So, you know, we've, we're coming up to this point. We've talked about some of the benefits. We've talked about some of the challenges. What do you think, um, and Jen, you kind of touch on this a little bit, but what do you think some things that we should be paying attention to with the COP model? What are some things that maybe like we need to give a little TLC to them or.
00:30:52
Speaker
you know, give them the nudge into the next 10 years. What would you recommend? Any thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the conversations and you were there, Rachel, that we had last week at the board of directors meeting is around member engagement, right? And I think that one of the challenges coming out of the pandemic has been a bit of a decline in
00:31:15
Speaker
in engagement in terms of folks stepping forward to take on leadership roles within the organization. And I don't think that that's unusual given the amount of burnout and turnover there's been in all of your institutions over the last three years. But it's something I think we need to pay attention to in terms of what are we asking volunteers to do
00:31:41
Speaker
Um, what is it that folks get out of their experience of being a community of practice leader or a board member or a committee member? What does that mean to the organization? Um, because, you know, we built our strength as for the last 50 years, really through grassroots member engagement, every project, like, yes, we do have a small staff now, but every project, every conversation, every initiative from that fabulous conference we had last week was really.
00:32:11
Speaker
driven a lot by volunteers. And is that changing? Is that something that we need to pay attention to? That's definitely something that's been on my mind in terms of what we ask of volunteers, but also how we support them. And the conversation around compensation comes up. And I do believe that compensation comes in forms other than just monetary. But I do think it's something that we're cognizant of as we're asking folks to present or
00:32:41
Speaker
share knowledge or be involved in different ways. It's something that I think needs to be at the forefront of our conversations to the future. Janet, any thoughts on that? I think the other piece is sort of continuing to strike that balance.
00:32:59
Speaker
so that we continue to meet sort of the ambitions of the communities of practice. So not getting to a place where we recreate that kind of divisional administrative structure within the COPs, but still have enough leadership and enough support within those communities of practice that they can function. And I don't know necessarily where that sweet spot is.
00:33:22
Speaker
But I think that over time, the danger can be that you sort of return to your roots, right? Like if you're not really careful about maintaining the culture of an organization, you can slip back into old practices and hopefully, you know, we're 10 years in and I also, David, cannot believe it has been 10 years. But I do think that we need to pay careful attention to that while still kind of maintaining the strength of the structure.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. What about you, David? I think the only other thing I would add is we had talked about when we had created the communities of practice about making sure that they are able to be nimble. And, you know, I think there, you know, we want to make sure that we're not as an organization trying to hold on to COPs that really aren't reflective of what the members need.
00:34:18
Speaker
And so I think Jennifer did talk a little bit about a review already. And so I think that is a piece of this, right? Bring in new ones that maybe reflect more of the current need. And we can sunset some of the older ones because, you know, if we're holding on to them just to hold on to them, I think that does replicate the divisional nature of caucus pre-COPs. And so just trying to
00:34:47
Speaker
spend that time to think about what do we really need for COPs? What do the members, where are they going to want to get engaged in the most meaningful way? Great. Well, and just to quickly build on what David said, and also your comment, Rachel, I think this also builds on Janet's point is that we don't want the communities to practice to replicate that siloed approach, right? And so we've had folks over the years, for example, someone contacted us
00:35:16
Speaker
and they wanted to create a community of practice on international student mental health. It was kind of like, well, we have an internationalization COP and the campus mental health COP. Is this a community of practice or is this a conversation within the organization and how can we support that as well? And so you're mentioning folks working in the strategic projects arena. Is that a community of practice? Are there other ways in which we can support these kinds of conversations
00:35:44
Speaker
that are flexible and responsive, but don't necessarily need to be a community practice per se. And so I think that that's also really interesting for us within the organization to say, let's support these. What could this be? Maybe this is a once a quarter meetup. And the senior student affairs officers are also interested in having a network of some kind
00:36:09
Speaker
Does it have to fall within the community of practice structure or is there something else? So I think I really like the idea of being open minded in terms of how do we meet those member needs and is that a workshop or is that a community of practice or is it something in between?
00:36:24
Speaker
and let's be flexible and as responsive as we can be. So that excites me. We could have an international students mental health summit hosted by caucus and the two COPs, right? Yeah, again. Well, and we do try to have, you know, to ensure that those cross conversations are happening. And one thing we haven't talked about is we do have
00:36:48
Speaker
what's called the assembly of caucus communities, because as we were going through this change, one of the pieces that was really important to people who were involved with the divisions was how do we still have a voice on the board, right? It was like they were losing that sense of place in terms of the decision-making body of the organization. And so we had created this assembly of caucus communities was really a place for the community of practice co-chairs to come together and in theory, raise questions to come back to the board
00:37:18
Speaker
if that was necessary. And we do try to encourage at that assembly, which meets four times a year, cross collaborations between the various communities. So when the EDI community of practice is having a conversation about something, where can they collaborate with other communities to move that forward? So it doesn't feel like this is exclusive to that one community, but it's open to everybody within caucus.
00:37:43
Speaker
I think that that's really important and that also folks who don't necessarily see themselves as part of the organization right now that we're continually thinking about ways in which we can reflect all student affairs professionals within caucus. And maybe it isn't a CO pay, maybe it's something else, but yeah, that's definitely something I've been thinking about as well. I think, I mean, maybe Jennifer just to build on that, but I do think that that is
00:38:10
Speaker
coming back to the model, one of the strengths of the community of practice is it invites people into a community just because they're interested in the topic and they want to learn, right? You don't have to be an expert. Whereas in the divisional model, I think there was a sense that you could only belong to that division if that was your exclusive work and you had something to contribute in terms of leadership and expertise. And so it's a much more
00:38:39
Speaker
fluid and open model in theory. And I do know even from the folks from UBC that are part of caucus that the communities of practice model has allowed them to dip their toes in professional development that they might not otherwise have an opportunity to. And I don't think that would have been possible in the divisional model in the same way.
00:39:02
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree. And actually, you've just started to touch on my last question to wrap this up, which is what are the benefits of joining a COP? And I'm not just talking about like, you know, becoming a leader in a COP, chairing it. But just joining and dipping your toes in and or getting really involved. What would you say? What would you want to let people know who are listening? You know, here are the benefits of joining. We want you to get involved. We want you to actually get benefit out of these these communities of practice.
00:39:31
Speaker
David, you want to start us off there? Sure. So I think Janet talked about a very important benefit of the COPs, but I also maybe we'll build on that a little bit and talk about the people in their roles at their home institutions, where they often don't actually get that opportunity for that inter intersection and cross pollination of
00:39:56
Speaker
of ideas from different areas. And so really, I think joining a COP, even if you are a participant through observation or active, actively involved, either way, you are able to develop more skills and competencies in the areas that you want to develop so that you are in a better position to support students at your home institutions.
00:40:26
Speaker
And just, I mean, I think that's a real benefit to the COPs that I would leave you with. Jen? Well, yeah, echoing what David said, I would also just mention, you know, in terms of what does joining mean? And one of the things I'm really proud that the board made the decision during COVID to really keep things as open and accessible as possible.
00:40:50
Speaker
And so if you are out there in the student affairs verse and you see something happening that one of our communities of practice is putting on, we really, for the most part, have kept everything open to anyone. So you don't have to be a member of caucus. Of course, we want you to be a member of caucus, and you will definitely hear about things that COPs are doing more regularly if you are a member. But we do try to promote things on social media and make things as open as possible on our website.
00:41:18
Speaker
so that if there is a conversation you're interested in joining, that you can do that regardless of membership status. So I think that that's an important piece too, that we've really kept to particularly during COVID when we know people's resources were more constrained. And again, like David said, I think if you're working in financial aid and you're really interested in moving into accessibility services or something, for example, that it isn't a really,
00:41:46
Speaker
open and safe way for you to participate in conversations with your colleagues and learn a little bit about different functional areas and different conversations across and build your post-secondary acumen, which is one of our competencies at caucus. Great. Anything you'd like to add, Janet? I might just go back to
00:42:14
Speaker
to some of the conversations and decisions that we made at the time. And I think one of the things that we really tried to focus on as we were thinking about the shift was also to pay really close attention to language, right? The language that was described in the whole nomenclature of a division versus community. And this careful attention to sense of belonging for
00:42:40
Speaker
professionals who do this work. And I think in the old structure, I often found that there was kind of a sometimes a perception of kind of exclusivity that you know, you're in or you were out. Whereas if you look up, and I remember doing this as president, if you look up community, and if the source or a dictionary, you find words like kinship and unity and identity and
00:43:08
Speaker
cooperation and convergence. And I think we can provide that through the communities. It's a reason to join because it is a community where you can find sense of belonging, where you can find that kinship, and you can find that support if you're an individual who maybe is the sole person who does this work on your institution or your campus. That's great.
00:43:31
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for joining us for the Caucus 50 podcast to talk about, I guess, sort of a new communities of practice model, but almost not new anymore. Maybe, maybe it's entering its teenage years. But it's so great to have people who are very, very involved and did a lot of hard work in creating this new model, the process of consultation and listening and iterating and getting us to the point where we did
00:44:00
Speaker
did take on this new model as an organization in our 50 years as an organization. So thank you to David Newman and to Janet Mee and to Jennifer Hamilton. Great to have you here for this conversation. Thank you.
00:44:34
Speaker
The Caucus 50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organization's 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by Sean Fast, Adam Kuehn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Mulettoller, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Jean Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret De Leon,
00:45:04
Speaker
and Becca Gray. Intro and outro music is courtesy of Alexei Stryabchi. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler colonial name, Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. Miigwetch.