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The CACUSS Competency Model
108 Plays1 year ago
This episode our on-air host Adam Kuhn is joined by Darran Fernandez, Corinna Fitzgerald, Tracey Mason-Innes, and Patty Hambler as we explore the topic of the CACUSS Competency Model. We hope that you enjoy and choose to follow along as we release a number of episodes geared towards celebrating our past, present, and future as an organization.
About:
The CACUSS 50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organization's 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by: Sean Fast, Adam Kuhn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Muehlethaler, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret de Leon, and Becca Gray. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler-colonial name, Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. For more information on the territories you may reside on, visit: https://native-land.ca/
Credits: Music: Expanding the Limits | Performed by Audiorezout & Written by Oleksii Striapchyi | Stock Media provided by Audiorezout / Pond5 Podcast Cover Art by: Ravi Gabble (UTM)
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Transcript
Introduction to Caucus 50 Oral History Project
00:00:18
Speaker
All right, welcome to the Caucus 50 Oral History Project. My name is Adam Kuehn. I use he, him, and they, them pronouns. My day job is that I work at the University of Toronto, but I get to interview these amazing people about amazing things connected to student services in Canada. Today we're going to be talking about the Caucus Competency Model, the Student Affairs and Services Competency Model.
00:00:41
Speaker
and I'm thrilled to be meeting with four amazing humans.
Meet the Panel Members
00:00:45
Speaker
We've got Darren Fernandez, who's currently the Assistant Vice Provost and University Registrar at York University. We've got Karina Fitzgerald, who's the Assistant Dean Student Life and Learning at Queen's University. We've got Tracy Mason-Ennis, who's the Executive Director of Student Affairs at Simon Fraser University. And last but not least, we've got Patty Hambler, who's the Director of Student Affairs and Services at Douglas College and current
00:01:11
Speaker
caucus reigning, do we say reigning current caucus president? And actually Patti, we're gonna start our first question with you if that's okay.
Origins of the Caucus Competency Model
00:01:19
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit about the origin, like where did this all start? Who started thinking about the idea of a competency framework and where did it begin in terms of your involvement?
00:01:30
Speaker
Sure, I'm happy to speak to that. It was the caucus board who put out an RFP. And so this, the need for a competency model within the Canadian context had already been identified as a priority by caucus as an organization. So the RFP went out, I wasn't heavily involved in the board at that time. And so I saw it as a member, I saw the request for proposals and
00:01:55
Speaker
I was really interested from the start because I saw the need as well and I was excited about the idea of contributing to the profession and to the professionalization of student affairs in Canada. I was working at UBC at the time and Darren Fernandez was one of my colleagues so we reached out, I reached out to Darren, we had a coffee and we chatted and I said, hey, do you want to maybe consider putting an RFP together?
00:02:21
Speaker
we thought it was important to have broader representation than just two folks from UBC, and so we kind of brainstormed who else might be involved. Both of us did think of Tracy as another co-conspirator that we could reach out to, and she was at SFU at the time. But we also wanted to make sure that we had someone, you know, from beyond British Columbia, and Darren suggested Carina. He had worked with her on a few things before.
00:02:48
Speaker
And so, yeah, that's how the four of us came together. We reached out to the other two and put our heads together for proposal, and then we were doing the work. Awesome. Thanks, Patty. Darren?
00:03:04
Speaker
It's interesting that as you share that story, it brings me back to I think it was a coffee and a block that we may have had that day. And part of, I remember the conversation that we had was wanting to make sure that it was coming from the membership, that it was derived from something that folks in this
00:03:26
Speaker
field and this practice have lived as well as espoused in how we do our work as opposed to it necessarily being like a third party who undoubtedly would have
00:03:40
Speaker
some experience in the work in order to be hired to do it. But we wanted to at least put our name in so that there was that perspective that was going to be brought to it. So I think that was another driver that I remember as wanting to make sure that there was also an opportunity for a diversity of responses to the RFP.
00:04:01
Speaker
And so taking a step back maybe, so the caucus board had put out an RFP. So they had come up with the decision that they wanted some sort of competency model and they were looking for folks to help them build it. And so you got the band together to put in the proposal and saying, you know, we feel like we're well-equipped to do that. So you obviously, you were successful in securing the RFP. So how did you get it started? What were your first steps? Tracy, can we start with you?
00:04:29
Speaker
Oh, you're asking the person who probably has the worst memory about this, but I remember specifically wanting to also respect the work that had come before us and that we were really conscious of ensuring we had all of the, any information, anything that had been done before about this. So articles and communique,
00:04:53
Speaker
you know, research that had been done through doctors or anything like that, it was really important for us not to just start without respecting that. So I remember spending a lot of time trying to think of where can we find information that's already been done, what's available to us, what's been written about it, and there were some works. There were works from, I remember, Tricia Seifert and a few other folks that wrote articles over the years about
00:05:22
Speaker
uh, competencies. And that was, that was interesting. It was also part of, um, I think just building, yeah, trying to get a sense of what foundation was already there and sort of where were we going to start. Um, that's what I remember from that
Canadian Elements and Challenges in the Model
00:05:36
Speaker
part. And that really comes through, I think referencing like Jen Brown's research, I think known as research. Like I feel like that, that comes through throughout the document really well. So Karina, what do you, what do you have to say about this question?
00:05:48
Speaker
I was going to say, Tracy, I think you were doing your doctorate at the same time, maybe. Oh, I was done. Oh, you were done. I felt like that was a theme. OK, so two of us have bad memories. I think the other part that we had just gone through, and that's how I actually met Patty years ago, was the communities of practice. And I think that also was my involvement in the association kind of not long before. And I think wanting to engage
00:06:16
Speaker
It continued to engage folks I think in the process as well. I think that's a lot of what we spent time talking about in addition to these other documents and then what makes things uniquely Canadian. I think that was the other conversation we had a lot was
00:06:31
Speaker
Many of us either had done graduate work in the US or gone to conferences or obviously were familiar with other frameworks. And so what was distinct and unique to us as Canadians, as Canadian practitioners, I think was a big theme. And I think part of what we were committed to, again, having gone through the process of reimagining sort of caucus in the community of practice model is
00:07:00
Speaker
all, you know, how are you broadly going to reach all of these folks who do different work, what seems like different work? But what are the common threads amongst, you know, student affairs practitioners more broadly? So we had a ton of discussions, I think, amongst ourselves. But then we talked a lot about what is the consultation framework. And so I think that's also what we were, and we're a huge country, I think one of the reasons probably Darren thought about
00:07:28
Speaker
me maybe is because I had worked at a college and a university and in three different provinces and so and it is different you know across the country now you know and Tracy's worked around everybody's kind of worked now in different places but you know trying to capture that in like one document and one process to lead to one document I think was a bit daunting but I think again I think the having the four of us with different backgrounds was really helpful.
00:07:57
Speaker
So you started by kind of looking back at what, you know, stuff was already around and available to you. It sounds like a really robust consultation process. But it also sounds like as you were stepping into it, that it was kind of maybe messy in a way. You had, you know, a huge country, lots of different institution types and a field that is very diverse with lots of different types of roles and functional areas. So I'm wondering, maybe just sitting in this space around process a little bit, what were some of the like,
00:08:24
Speaker
tough conversations or maybe tricky conversations as you were kind of going through the consultation process starting to put pen to paper. What were some of the considerations that were really top of mind for you as you were starting to generate what would eventually become the model? I can jump in with one thing that I think and others pile on please but I think
00:08:46
Speaker
At the time, and this was, I guess was 2015, 1415. I think we were just starting to realize how white we were as a group and an association and as a field. And I think concepts of indigenization and indigeneity, again, happening in different ways across the country too. I think some provinces further ahead or behind.
00:09:12
Speaker
And how do we capture those aspects, you know, we talk about intercultural competencies is one of the competencies.
Navigating Competency Writing for Diverse Roles
00:09:22
Speaker
What does that really mean and you know internationalization and how can we as a group of four also with not all of those lived experiences sort of be authentic and still capture those aspects in a way that's meaningful, but also sort of accessible to a broad range of folks and again I
00:09:42
Speaker
And can save this for later. I'm not sure that's there yet and things have changed a lot, I would say in the last 6 years, 7 years. But I think that's 1 where we really struggled, I think, to kind of figure out the path forward. And I think, you know, for the time and space that we're in and please others if you have other thoughts.
00:10:00
Speaker
I think we did do it in a relatively authentic and inclusive way, but I think that also could be an area where we start to rethink those things.
00:10:13
Speaker
Awesome, thanks, Darren. Karina, you're sharing made me think about a conversation that we had around like positions or positionality in the field and how do we take an approach of writing competencies that speak to senior student affairs officers? Or do we take an approach of talking about them in relation to middle managers or people who are early career? And I remember us having this conversation around how difficult it is to
00:10:41
Speaker
to define those things because there's so many external factors that relate to it. So whether it be size of institution, province in which you work or territory in which you work, relationship between colleges and universities within the province and territory in which you work. So many different pieces that in one institution you may be seen as a middle manager in another institution might be an SSAO. And so just because of where you might sit with a job title.
00:11:11
Speaker
And so I remember I was having this conversation about how do we help people not, you know, attach to position or hierarchy, but understand really what we mean when we say a competency for all and recognizing that in some instances, as you go through
00:11:34
Speaker
your career, and should your career continue in an upward movement from, let's say, early career to senior student affairs officer, you might actually need to have a lower competency level in certain competencies because you shouldn't be engaged in certain things, whereas you might have a deeper level in others. And so it really, at least for me, forced me to think differently about how we start our framing of this project.
00:12:03
Speaker
And, and how we were going to lead the consultation questions too, because we tried, we brought in people from all those groups. And I think in some cases, if we went back to any artifacts that may not exist anymore on, on, on those consultations, we might find similar threads from people who are at very different levels of the organization. And so that was a bit of a, um, you know, your, your reflections offered me that, that memory back.
Debate: Canadian vs. American Frameworks
00:12:32
Speaker
While I'm even thinking about that idea, and I feel like...
00:12:36
Speaker
as I was reviewing the framework, as I do every week, I was looking at the section on the SSAO and the expertise areas, which I think was a really elegant way to kind of accommodate that of saying, you know, you're going to have expertise areas on top of these ones that we've named that might be more relevant to whatever kind of your role is. And also, as a senior student affairs officer, you should have familiarity with all of these, as well as
00:13:03
Speaker
additional, you know, competencies in the administration space. So I feel like what sounds like a kind of muddy conversation I think yielded a really nice kind of way of organizing it in the framework. Patty?
00:13:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm remembering our conversations about what was uniquely Canadian. So Karina, what you were sharing about the context, we were just coming out of the TRC in Canada at that time. And so the section on Indigenous cultural competence, I think, was really unique. But apart from that, I remember we really wrestled with what
00:13:39
Speaker
needs to be distinct and unique within this document from what already existed from our colleagues in the States? And did we have enough to justify creating a new framework? Or should we just be referencing the ones that already existed in particular, the ACPA NASPA document that exists in the States? And so that was a big topic of conversation amongst us and with colleagues that we had
00:14:06
Speaker
throughout the process. And I think we landed in a pretty good place where we decided to reference and acknowledge that work, but then layer on the pieces that we thought were really important that were either for us missing from that work or that were uniquely Canadian. But that was definitely a piece that came up a lot. Do we actually need this unique Canadian document? I think we decided the answer was yes, but it was a big topic of conversation throughout the process. I love that.
00:14:36
Speaker
Tracy? Yeah, that's helping me remember stuff. I think ACPA NASPA being a helpful guide and ensuring that we cited the work and had permission to use the work. Another thing we talked about was over time, over the years,
00:14:56
Speaker
ACPA and NASPA have had their competencies. They've changed competencies based on whether or not they are threaded through all competencies or they warrant specific categories. And so we had discussions about that too. And I remember talking about some of our categories. You might look to the
00:15:18
Speaker
ACPA NASPA set and see that they're actually threaded. They're actually seen as competencies that are threaded through all. So things like off the top of my head, I'm thinking of things like communication skills or more of those. So, you know, there's certain things that maybe we chose to
00:15:35
Speaker
you know, put as a category. And we also recognize we had many, and we figured over the years, they would, you know, they could ebb and flow from size, like to go less or more. I think that was our intent too, to be sort of bold up front, name them all. And then over time, we might find that things get threaded through like technology or things that just become sort of, everyone kind of has a general competency or they're not so needed to be pointed out. And remember that part fairly well.
00:16:02
Speaker
Well, and that's a good lead into the next question, because I think, which is going to be about some of the features or aspects of the framework that we think are interesting and notable, because I think as we're talking about the categories, I think it would be easy. Well, not easy.
00:16:16
Speaker
maybe easy for some organizations to couch, you know, Indigenous cultural awareness under EDI and frame it all there or similar intercultural, like kind of packaging that all together. But I think that I think I appreciate about the framework is that they're kind of separate distinct categories with, you know,
00:16:33
Speaker
specific competencies and specific breakdowns within each of them. So I'm just wondering if, as you're thinking about how you organized everything, what are some features of the framework that you think are notable or interesting? Karina, can we start with you? I think, I mean, I think that was one where we did actually spend a lot of time making the case that indigenization or indigenous cultural competence is its own thing, especially for us in Canada. And I think that was
00:17:03
Speaker
Um, you know, just to echo really what Patty said, I think that at the time we
Core Values and Student-Centered Approaches
00:17:09
Speaker
were trying to future think a little bit too. I think that was part of, you know, we could see where we were headed maybe in the field. I think, um, the other thing I think differently in the Canadian context, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, we talked a lot about Canadian student service folks being practitioners first.
00:17:29
Speaker
And a lot of us, you know, where, you know, a lot of folks in the States are more inclined to do grad work while doing and I think some of those things have changed too.
00:17:42
Speaker
I do think, and I think about myself this way, practitioner first all the time, no matter what. And so trying to make sure that the competencies were accessible, I think, to folks in the work that they do and that they could use them in performance, you know, dialogues or in job descriptions and things like that. So I think that was something that we were really committed to, that it had to be usable.
00:18:06
Speaker
for the association and I think you know caucus has kind of always struggled with this sort of legitimacy or student affairs folks in Canada period I think at any institution and so we were hoping to also bolster the legitimacy of the work that we all do and so I think I do hear lots of folks reference them and talk about them and have used them since so I think for me that's
00:18:32
Speaker
you know, again, that echoes we were committed to them. And I think that's, that's the case kind of in the end product. Awesome. Thanks, Karina. Patty, do you have any aspects, features, elements of the, of the framework that you think are particularly interesting or notable?
00:18:48
Speaker
I think the values to me hold and are some of the strongest pieces of the document because the competencies I think will ebb and flow and I think we're going to talk later about what's the future of this competency framework and I think we never expected it to stay static over the years and it probably does need a refresh.
00:19:11
Speaker
However, the values to me still hold very true and strong in terms of thinking about SAS professionals as educators, having a student-centered and holistic approach to our work, and that we are endeavoring to have a professional and ethical practice in everything that we do. And those to me have not wavered in my mind at all. And often when I'm introducing new folks to the profession, whether they're coming
00:19:40
Speaker
straight from graduating recently and coming into the field or coming from outside the field into student affairs work. I reference those as values, important pieces of our work. Also with our faculty partners and really reminding folks that student affairs professionals are educators and we're here as educational partners in all of the work.
00:20:05
Speaker
that's happening within higher education. So to me, that's one of the stronger pieces that I hope, as we move forward and maybe do make changes, that those pieces continue to be at the core of what the framework is and what our work is.
00:20:21
Speaker
I really appreciate you bringing up the values because that is a feature that I think is really core to the framework. And I feel like when I'm doing informational interviews with people who are curious about careers in student affairs, these are some of the things that I'm consistently referencing that we're talking about. We're educators.
00:20:38
Speaker
Yes, we might be event planners, we might be process people, but at the core of it, we are educating and thinking about the whole student. I even think about talking about the whole student with someone and they were like, what? So everyone else is just talking about the bottom half or the upper half. I was like, no, we're talking about mind, body, spirit. We're talking about holistic considerations of students. And that blew their mind a bit. So to see it named as a value that's core to the framework, I think is really critical.
00:21:06
Speaker
Darren, is there a competency that you want to zoom in on and talk about? Post-secondary acumen. It's maybe not a notable one, but I think there was a bit of a conversation that we had as a group to be like, how do we name this? How do we articulate to people what it means to be like,
00:21:29
Speaker
almost savvy or political or just understanding the interconnection between things because you're rarely taught, at least I should say you, but I was not necessarily taught how to navigate the system or to understand the nuances of it.
00:21:47
Speaker
within the system. I had to like, I had a couple great mentors who brought me along and I learned along the way, but that one to call it out and have it be something that we want people to build capacity and awareness around. Like, it helps us to kind of dispel some myths hopefully, but also say like,
00:22:09
Speaker
this is actually something really important. It's a part of our work. And it's not something that we want to frame as a skill that only certain people can have or that certain people should have. And so for me, that was a moment where I was like, this is a piece that's different, but I think allows us to have a different sort of conversation about what it means to do this sort of work and with our peers in doing this sort of
Development Process and Framework Application
00:22:37
Speaker
work.
00:22:37
Speaker
and I'm happy that just by people coming off mute and creating you feeling very excited about this competency too that it's not just me. Oh I feel more than that so funny story like obviously these are all smart people. I was the last band member added perhaps and didn't know everyone the same. I have claimed this competency as my
00:23:03
Speaker
major contribution to this work, because that's so funny. And it may or may not be true. It's a long time ago. But when I was at McMaster, I had done early days as a res life person, we were considered managers, and we did these core competencies for managers, we had access to this professional development. And I learned this word University Acumen, and had never really heard it before that.
00:23:27
Speaker
And it kind of blew my mind, actually, as somebody who at the time was doing conduct of policy work and all these other things. Anyway, so whether or not it is true, this is my claim to the competency fame. That's the only thing where I was like, I feel like I contributed to that. So there you go. I love that one too.
00:23:49
Speaker
It's a really good one and I appreciate what you've offered because I think some folks might think it's just the VPs or the SSAOs who have to navigate these kind of waters or understand how decisions are made and governance and intersection with government and community and the whole context of it all. But I really think folks at all levels really benefit from kind of appreciating and understanding that context. So I'm glad it made it in.
00:24:13
Speaker
And anyone coming into student affairs from another profession, I've seen folks struggle when they don't invest time and energy into this competency. And it can make or break someone's success. And I've seen that happen time and again.
00:24:29
Speaker
where someone who really gets in there and gets to know people and how it works in post-secondary and the culture and the systems and you know we're not saying that they're necessarily good all the time but understanding how it works and why it works a certain way is so so important for success at all levels of work within student affairs I think.
00:24:52
Speaker
Were there other competencies or values or aspects of the framework that you really kind of had aha moments where maybe it just kind of snapped into place in a particularly exciting way or did it all kind of happen in like a really nice organic process
00:25:10
Speaker
because I feel like it sounds like post-secondary acumen, there was this moment where it's like, yes, this is putting a name to something that we've all kind of experienced or navigated in our own professions, but I'm just curious if everything else kind of, how it all, the other ones came to be. Darren? This may be like channeling like a,
00:25:30
Speaker
really weird memory, but I remember us being in a room together with like large, you know, post-it, you know, things, and it was almost like a bit of like a word shuffle. And you'll note in like the competencies, like there are, you know, ands and commas in certain places, and I think we actually like played an activity of talking about, you know, does let's say communications technology and digital engagement, is that one.
00:25:56
Speaker
competency or how is that divided up or where does advising sit separate of others? So there's almost like this internal process that we went through around by putting things together. Are we weighing them in the same way? Are we drawing attention to something?
00:26:19
Speaker
Um, different, I think that was my dog in the background that clearly decided to give herself a bit of a shake. Um, you know, live recording, what can we do about that? Um, yeah, so it, it drew me back to these moments of like saying, what do we, what does it mean when we put these words together? Um, and to say that this is one competency as opposed to three, um, is that sort of denoting something to the community that we should or should not be saying?
00:26:45
Speaker
It's very clear that there is a great deal of care and thought putting into kind of how it's all configured and organized. So I think when you're in those rooms and all the Post-its are everywhere, it might not necessarily feel like it's going to resonate, but I can say from my perspective that it really is. It's very clear to me that there is a lot of thought and care put into that process. I'm curious just stepping into the, like,
00:27:08
Speaker
Okay, so how is this going to get used? How is this going to get picked up by the organization? Were there hopes for the framework as you were building it? Did you have an idea of maybe how it would get picked up? And is that what happened? Darren, back to you for this one. For me, I'll share that, you know, I hope this was
00:27:28
Speaker
to be used as an onboarding tool for people to kind of have people share where they might be at and to allow for people leaders to have conversations with their teams about
00:27:44
Speaker
the importance of developing competency in certain areas, being able to articulate connections of competencies to their day to day work.
Framework's Impact on Education and Research
00:27:51
Speaker
I think at that level one piece, I'm most curious about that to see what does that mean for how this could be practically applied in the field. So I think
00:28:06
Speaker
My hope was that initially that would be the case. And I think that really was an action that a lot of people took up. It's been curious to hear the stories of how people have taken it farther, like in relation to performance development conversation, to styling interview questions based off of the competencies, things like that. But I think for me, that initial point of it being a starter conversation about the field and ultimately for me leading to a bit more
00:28:37
Speaker
emphasis on the importance of this field in a professionalization context was I think something that was super important. Awesome. Thanks, Darren. Tracy, do you have anything to add? Definitely what Darren said, I think establishing us the Canadian profession and ensuring that folks could see the profession within this document and what we're all about and what we expose and our values.
00:29:06
Speaker
I also, and this was, this came from the people that we spoke to, this is great, this will help us, this will be a way to introduce new initiatives that, you know, we are a group, we do belong to a seminal, like literature backs what we do, all of these things.
00:29:26
Speaker
If part of me also was when we were doing that background of what's already been done, some of our sources or where we looked were job descriptions, but also grad studies or programs. And I remember looking at the programs and very few of them listed competencies as outcomes. I remember having that, looking at all the ones that by now they're all different. You look across at how much has changed with who's offering what.
00:29:54
Speaker
But that was something in the back of my head around, wouldn't it be nice if the programs reflected what the profession needs in the practice? And I don't know, I haven't gone back in to see if there's competencies now and what's out there and what's being delivered right now for graduate programs in the profession. But I remember thinking that that would be good to see because then there's a joining of who we're pumping out in our profession and then there's truly
00:30:24
Speaker
an adaptation or a synergy there. Yeah and I'm just kind of reflecting back what I'm hearing Tracy too is that there's kind of this macro impact like what it's communicating to others about our profession or even communicating to ourselves about our work about what's happening kind of in broad kind of high level ways but then there's also really kind of granular and specific material ways people are picking it up whether it's
00:30:48
Speaker
for hiring or PD planning. And I can say I have seen, I've been connected with some master's level programs where I don't know if they're using it necessarily to frame their whole program, but I've seen in particular classes just being really picked up in exciting ways, which maybe is a good segue to the next question is around how are you seeing folks pick it up or how are you using it in your work? What have you noticed? Patty, can we start with you?
00:31:15
Speaker
I've gotten most excited when I've seen it referenced in research and student affairs in the Canadian context. So I've come across that a couple of times now where it's I see my name and everyone else is on this column like, oh, they're actually people are using this and reading it and referencing it in their research. So to me, that's exciting because we're seeing them the conversations continuing and
00:31:35
Speaker
the field is continuing to grow and we're continuing to learn and build off of each other's work. So that's really exciting. And then absolutely on the practical side, I've heard folks using it and within my own context, using it at an institutional level for professional development within the Student Affairs Division to think about performance development or developing tools that can be then used within the context of that institution to help people think about their own
00:32:04
Speaker
on professional development or to give feedback to folks on areas that they could grow in. I know I've personally asked sometimes folks, especially in leadership roles to reflect, you know, use this as a tool. I'm not expecting you to, you know, take all of it, but find one or two areas that you think you could grow in and articulate that within your professional development plan. So I've used it really practically in that sense.
00:32:34
Speaker
Very cool. Tracy, how about you? I've been able to, well, I've seen it used in different ways and people have reached out over the years interested in learning a little bit about the background in this story and I love telling the story.
00:32:48
Speaker
because it was kind of a funny way the band came together and what we were able to do in what, six months, five months. I think that's one thing that really stuck out for me is what we were able to do in such a short amount of time. I've used it when I have the opportunity to teach in the MED leadership post-secondary studies. So leadership, I'll use the leadership competencies and introduce it to folks.
00:33:14
Speaker
and also professional development, PDPs, those kinds of things. I think sometimes I grapple with the fact that my name is on it. So I don't want to be like, hey folks, right? So it's interesting. I think that's something for me to reflect upon, whether or not I've used it to its full extent, just trying to also distance the fact that your name's on it.
00:33:41
Speaker
But in the end, it's been great to see just how many people have found it useful and what people are using it for is always surprising. Absolutely. And what I've noticed is seeing institutions make their own versions using the framework as a jumping off point and kind of building something that's kind of reflective of their particular institution and context. And I think that's really cool, right? Because people are using the tool and building stuff that is really important for them in their context.
Influence on Caucus Events and Future Revisions
00:34:11
Speaker
Now, in terms of the caucus conference, or I've noticed that's another way that it's being picked up, is that it's how we're framing the different sessions, the different categories, the caucus conference proposals. How has it felt seeing something that you built being used by the organization in this way? I think that it has allowed for some level of
00:34:40
Speaker
I don't know, organization or a starting place, let's call it, when we're coming together as a whole profession, you know, you have this recent, most recent conference, you know, over 900 people coming together.
00:34:55
Speaker
and being able to have that common starting place, at least, and then grow out from there, I think is a good way to be using it. And in addition to, say, the conference for institutes, like the New Professionals Institute, I would hope that for something like that, especially, that the framework could be used as a great tool and, again, as a starting place so that we have
00:35:25
Speaker
you know, this common jumping off point, and then we can take it in many different directions, but it does allow us to have that as a place to begin. I'll maybe just add, I think I'm surprised at, and Patti, you sort of said this in the beginning, it is a thing, like it's just kind of,
00:35:47
Speaker
I'm surprised. And again, I also disassociate myself from it, Tracy. And like I said, there's only one thing where I sort of say, hey, I know about that. But I think that I've just recently had some staff say to me, hey, I didn't even know you did that.
00:36:02
Speaker
And because they heard about it at caucus because, again, we've been back in person for the first time in a while. And as you said, Patty, like the whole it's just kind of now infused into the work of the association. And I think of people in the field and within in the work that they do. And I think.
00:36:20
Speaker
I don't know if I thought it would stand the test of this much time, actually, I thought folks, I think we all sort of thought like, this is the first blush at this, you know, maybe in a few years, somebody will have another look at it and
00:36:34
Speaker
Again, maybe that is the next, the next thing for the association to do, but I think that's been interesting. And I think it speaks to, and I'll pick on my colleagues more. So like, I think that, you know, their expertise in particular and crafting, you know, and, and the detailed work, like, I think that's the other thing. We're very,
00:36:56
Speaker
A lot of us A-types, maybe all of us actually. And so the collective A-type attention to the detail of it, Patty's laughing because it's true between Patty, Darren, and Tracy in particular. I'm less of a detailed person. I learned, I thought I was, and then I worked with these folks. And so I think that that's
00:37:19
Speaker
That's helped, and I think that's helped have it stand the test of time a bit longer, I think, than we thought it would. It has been really cool to see it picked up and re-picked up and reused. It is part of the dialogue. It's part of our culture as an organization, which is really lovely to see. Looking back on the process and the product, is there anything that maybe you think you could have done differently? Karina, we can stay with you on this one.
00:37:52
Speaker
I've been thinking about that question. Tracy sort of said, we didn't have a lot of time. It was really, really fast. I feel like we had meetings in December. We met in person in January. I flew out to BC. These guys are all on the West Coast.
00:38:12
Speaker
And between then and the caucus conference in June that year, we produced the document we're discussing. I think that, yeah, I think having maybe a bit more time to do some more consultations, maybe that might have been
00:38:29
Speaker
But again, even in that time, we met with, we met with folks, we met with the board. We met with rant. We had open sessions. We had things online and this is like back in an era when only Patty, I think knew how to maybe dare and knew how to use online things.
00:38:45
Speaker
Um, anyway, it was a whole, yeah, so a little bit more time maybe, but, um, one group me and you've kind of spoken to this, um, Patty is like new professionals. Maybe I don't know how much we engage with new professionals. Um, and again, I think, you know, hindsight is 2020, but other than that, I honestly couldn't, and that's about the process more than anything.
00:39:10
Speaker
I think that we looked at all kinds of different documents in different ways. I forgot, actually, we had looked at grad schools and job descriptions. But I think that's the collective group, the four of us, I think that was helpful to be able to distribute the work.
00:39:31
Speaker
Maybe it's more of a, if anyone does this again, I think it's not a one person job. I think there's lots of different, there's lots of benefits, I think, to compiling a band like we did and trying to seek as much consultation as possible. Darren, do you have any thoughts on things that might have been done differently?
00:39:55
Speaker
Students, student engagement in a deeper way I think would be something that I would go back to, like student leaders, in particular those that are in our offices or were in our offices at that time to see, you know, is this a path that they were exploring and how would they articulate where they might sit in certain spaces around it? That would be a piece that would student it to me and that would tack on to, you know, Karina's reflection around
00:40:24
Speaker
Well, Karina, you said something and it made me think about students. So you said that a population that we could have early career professionals or new professionals. The other piece was I think I would.
00:40:36
Speaker
want to see if we would be more explicit about a review process for the competencies. Like if we were to say, you know, this should be reviewed every seven to 10 years or every five years, or a COP should be charged with this, to be a bit more explicit about that in a recommendation back to caucus. I'm not sure if we were, but I think there's, if I just think back as to when we did this and what has happened in our world
00:41:05
Speaker
like since that time, there's such opportunity to pick this up a notch. And I think part of that would create some accountability for the association and its membership to say, this is something that might need to happen every so often. That's a really good point and a really good segue into our last question. And I will invite everyone to respond, which is looking ahead to the next five or 10 years.
00:41:34
Speaker
Is there anything that you would add or take away from the framework? If you're getting the band back together to do this all again, is there anything that you would change or add or modify or consider thinking ahead to the next few years of our profession? Does anyone want to kick us off with this very easy breezy question?
00:41:54
Speaker
I can start and I don't have a lot. But one of the things I've been and this is a bit selfish, I would say just in terms of we we did spend time talking about sort of cohorts of student affairs folks and senior folks in particular, I think was a lot of our conversation centered around that. I'm we did talk also about managing the humans and
00:42:20
Speaker
But I don't know how much we've really talked about higher ed administration, even though we all love the occupant piece. But as somebody who's now further along in my career, not quite middle, but not quite senior, maybe, what are things that are different for this group? And then perhaps related to that is more around
00:42:49
Speaker
I don't want to say different governments and how that impacts the work we do and the climate and being nimble within student affairs in particular in higher ed. I think, you know, Darren's point is higher ed has changed. I've been at this. All of us have been at this a really long time, but over 20 years and things have really changed. I think in the higher ed climate and context and in particular and it has
00:43:15
Speaker
impacted our work intensely. You know, you think about sexual violence legislation, human rights legislation. You know, we're kind of legislated up the wasm, particularly in Ontario. You know, how to kind of incorporate some of that into our profession, whether or not it's through the competency model, I don't know, but I think that there's more to be done there.
00:43:40
Speaker
and to kind of rethink and to try to shape, I think, the folks that are within the system so that we can influence even more. I do think that it's tough. I think we are still, you know, a little bit behind some of our colleagues in the South, but things are changing down there a lot, too, right? So I think, you know, how to incorporate that, I think, more broadly into the profession is a huge question, I think, in the next few years that we're funding models, et cetera, et cetera, like how we'll sustain ourselves.
00:44:11
Speaker
Thanks, Karina. Patty? It's interesting having this conversation at this time because I just came off of a project at Douglas College where I was part of a team that was developing an indigenization PD framework. And so doing this again many years later, but in a very different context and really reflecting on what it means to articulate learning in a way that isn't
00:44:41
Speaker
making a lot of assumptions about where people are starting or where they might be going in the sense that I do sometimes worry that our document comes across as really prescriptive and I don't think that's how we intended it to be. I think we really intend it to be take what you find useful from this document and use it
00:45:00
Speaker
how you find most useful in your work. But when you look at the this behemoth of a document that is, you know, over 25 pages, I think of bullet points of things that you should learn and know if you're going to be a student affairs professional, I worry that that might come across as very daunting and very colonial.
00:45:22
Speaker
And so I wonder what it would look like to revisit this process with a decolonial lens and think of it in a different way. And I don't even know exactly what that would look like, but one of the things that we did with the framework that we developed at Douglas College was thinking of it more as a journey metaphor. What is your journey in learning and how do you then use this as a tool to help guide you in that learning journey?
00:45:51
Speaker
And so that's just a reflection that I have. I don't know if that really says what to do with it next, but I do think that we could bring different lenses to the framework and and maybe
00:46:03
Speaker
have rifts of it almost like like different versions of of this that new professionals guide to competencies but or you're learning as a new professional you're learning as a senior student affairs person and and break it down a little bit more digestible pieces because when i look at it now that's the only piece that i i think wow
00:46:27
Speaker
going back to that comment about all these type A personalities of, you know, we didn't want to miss anything. And so we put everything in. And I think that has its positives, but perhaps also has some drawbacks as well. I love that. Thanks, Patty. Darren? There's something about
00:46:50
Speaker
like interdisciplinarity that is in all the competencies, but maybe not called out enough, that I would maybe want to have show up a bit more in addition in a future state. In this name, call back to my comments about how our world in POSEC has changed so much, that there isn't necessarily a neatness that exists about how we define student affairs and services.
00:47:18
Speaker
I think more so now than there was even when we authored this. And so part of that is also connected to I think post-secondary acumen and leadership management and administration about just bringing awareness to those intersections on the end.
00:47:35
Speaker
academic side, on the ancillary side, but that has to come through a bit more intentionally for me because that sets our colleagues up for success. That's all of us up for success. And so that would be one piece that I think can be emphasized a bit more because the theme of our sector right now is do more with less. And I think that's been the case for many, many years, but I think
00:48:01
Speaker
more people are screaming it from rooftops at this point in time. And so the greater awareness we can bring to how we can work more tightly with other colleagues, how we can show reciprocity a bit more intentionally with others by understanding what others work through. Empathy, I think will get us to a better place overall. And we'll set people up for greater individual success in the long run. Awesome. Thanks, Darren. Tracy.
00:48:32
Speaker
I think pulling from pieces that others have already said, how the document is laid out I think could be really different. It is very structured and colonial in that sense and I worry that it creates limitations in people's minds about how it could work or
00:48:52
Speaker
or like it's like a kitchen sink where everything's in it and you just kind of get nothing out of it. I do worry about that. I also wonder about, just listening to Karina mention how much we've changed in our own careers and what we know now.
00:49:07
Speaker
What we knew then determined also what happened and how things kind of came out. So positioning ourselves maybe better in the document, letting people know sort of who we were and what frame or where we were coming from. Because I think there's maybe a little bit of assumption that people would know who we were, but I think in some ways you kind of have to describe a little bit about where we're coming from in the work that we do because it shows up.
00:49:35
Speaker
It shows up in that none of us were SSAOs at the time, right? And we knew that was a limitation. We do mention that. But I think that's the kind of thing. And then just knowing now where we are and that journey, that career journey, which is a fascinating thing in and of itself that I think has a story to tell for folks that are in this profession, that it is
00:49:59
Speaker
It's all things. It can be all things to people and you really make up your journey and your story and there's lots of opportunities. We need to get a bit more creative in how to bring people into the field.
00:50:13
Speaker
Well, that is a great place to end on, I think. I just want to say thank you to Tracy Mason and us, Patty Hambler, Corinna Fitzgerald, Darren Fernandez for joining us today. When we were thinking about the caucus 50 oral history project and kind of notable moments in caucuses history, the creation of this competency framework was one of the ones that immediately came to mind. And it's because of the work that all four of you put in.
00:50:38
Speaker
building on, of course, the wonderful work of many colleagues as well. But thanks to your heavy lifting that we have this wonderful thing to dissect and critique and use and pick up. So thank you so much for your work on the framework and for your time today.
00:51:14
Speaker
The Caucus 50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organization's 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by Sean Fast, Adam Kuehn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Mulettoller, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Jean Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret de Leon,
00:51:44
Speaker
and Becca Gray. Intro and outro music is courtesy of Alexei Stryabchi. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler-colonial name Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. Miigwetch.