Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Equity, Diversity & Inclusion: a CoP Spotlight
49 Plays4 months ago
This episode our on-air host Adam Kuhn is joined by Jen Gonzales, Zenith Bose, and Dwaine Taylor as we explore the topic of Equity, Diversity & Inclusion: a CoP Spotlight . We hope that you enjoy and choose to follow along as we release a number of episodes geared towards celebrating our past, present, and future as an organization.
The CACUSS50 Oral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organizations 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by: Sean Fast, Adam Kuhn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Muehlethaler, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Jean Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret de Leon, and Becca Gray. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler-colonial name, Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. For more information on the territories you may reside on, visit: https://native-land.ca/
Music: Expanding the Limits | Performed by Audiorezout & Written by Oleksii Striapchyi | Stock Media provided by Audiorezout / Pond5
Podcast Cover Art by: Ravi Gabble (UTM)
Twitter: @cacusstweets
Instagram: @cacussphotos
Website: https://cacuss.ca/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast Series
00:00:16
Speaker
All right, hello and welcome to the caucus 50th oral history project which is a series of podcast episodes ah that are aiming to capture the stories and experiences of folks involved with the Canadian Association of College University Student Services.
Exploring EDI Community of Practice's Journey
00:00:33
Speaker
I get that right, caucus. um And I am thrilled to be joined with some folks who have been involved with in various shapes and forms with the equity, diversity, inclusion, community of practice ah today. And so we're going to be talking about the past, present, and future of this particular community practice, what's on our minds, what's on the horizon.
Zenna's Career and EDI Research Interest
00:00:53
Speaker
And so I think at first we'll start with just some introductions. So first we'll go over to Zenna. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
00:01:02
Speaker
Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Zaneh Foes and my pronouns are she, her. And a little bit about um where I work, what I do. Just a few months ago, I made a switch from the West Coast where I was um working at a college called Columbia College, working with faculty in teaching and learning. And I last summer moved over to Calgary and Mount Royal University and working with faculty, but in research, ah um working at the intersection of research and ADI. And um
00:01:39
Speaker
I'm trying to see what else to tell you about me. I like food a lot. And right now I'm fermenting a lot of things. You can ask me about that more later if you want to. Oh, I feel like I would love to have another podcast series that's about like everyone's side interests, because I think there's so many hobbies and interests and pastimes that folks have that I would love to talk to you about fermenting.
Zenith's Leadership and EDI COP Evolution
00:02:03
Speaker
um Zenith, do you want to tell us a little bit about your connection to the COP? Like how have you been involved over the years?
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, um, I first um attended um a caucus conference in 2019 and at the conference I heard about the DICOPs or attended kind of their annual ah meeting and there was there also, ah they had these separate um lunches for student affairs professionals who are indigenous and racialized attended that and through that I met the two um EDI, COP, co-chairs at the time and I just started attending and turned out that was 2019, end of 2019 they were thinking about stepping down. One um
00:02:46
Speaker
earlier than the other, and they were looking for folks to step into that role. So I um applied and early 2020, I actually officially started my role February or March of 2020, just as the pandemic hit.
00:03:03
Speaker
just with a few other things going on in the world. So just yeah, things in it.
Jen's Career Reflection and Caucus Impact
00:03:08
Speaker
um Jen, let's go over to you. Jen, do you want to introduce yourself? Happy to. um My name is Jen Gonzalez. I am the executive director of student affairs at Toronto Metropolitan University in the heart and soul of bustling Toronto, Ontario. um I oversee all the student affairs, so several different student support functions, including our career co-op student success center, our student life and learning support center, our housing and residence life department, our student care and sexual violence support spaces. So lots and lots of responsibility. um And I
00:03:40
Speaker
I'm involved and was involved, I think in the early days of what has now is now the COP. So I have been a member of caucus for probably my whole career, which is in and around 20 years, if you don't the student years, which I absolutely count. So probably more towards 24. And certainly as a as a member of caucus, you know, my first few times going to caucus was was very interesting yeah um experiences for me to go across the country many times to spaces I had never been before.
00:04:08
Speaker
um So Edmonton, for example, is is actually my first conference ever. And really just truly the narratives of what caucus was for the folks that were in community with me on my campuses that I was working on. It seemed like a really fun time and that was not always my experience. So um you know some of the first early meetups of this of what is now the COP I contributed to and and I'm happy to share a little bit more about what that era was. I would say the 2015, actually 2017, 2018 era where um I contributed. Awesome. Thanks, John. Dwayne.
Dwayne's EDI Role at Carleton University
00:04:44
Speaker
and Hey folks, my name is Dwayne Taylor. um I'm currently the Assistant Director of Undergraduate Recruitment at Carleton University, and my pronouns are he and him. I've held a few different roles at Carleton University. Before my time in recruitment, I was also in the student affairs space. um I was the inaugural Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Program Coordinator at Carleton, and I used to work in ah student experiential learning as well.
00:05:08
Speaker
um But my relationship with caucus and the EDI COP is a little bit different. I actually joined Zenith probably about six or seven months into her pandemic tenure in the EDI COP. March 2020, as we all know, was a challenging time for everybody.
00:05:24
Speaker
And then it took on this massive role and was doing it ah by herself really. um And I joined caucus right around that time around March 2020 started to attend a few of those sessions and realize this was a really powerful and engaging community um and being the first person in my role doing equity diversity. inclusion work for students um at Carleton. It was ah really transformative for me to connect with other colleagues in the space. So I had an opportunity to do that ah in a leadership capacity. So I joined Zenith as co-chair and we spent just over two years, three years for Zenith, two years for me um in that in that space, which was really incredible.
00:06:05
Speaker
Amazing. I can already tell where we're going to have an amazing conversation today. So thanks for your time. And I also forgot to introduce myself. My name is Adam Kewen, and I'm just going to be moderating this conversation today. My day job is at the University of Toronto as Director of Student Engagement.
Defining the Identity of EDI COP
00:06:20
Speaker
So we got a little bit of a teaser, I think, ah through your introductions about you know what is the COP, what it does, what its origins are. But maybe, Zena, because You had a six-month head start on Dwayne as a co-chair in terms of your co-chair experience. Can you tell us a little bit about like what is the COP? What is it? Who is it for? What does it do?
00:06:46
Speaker
Yeah, my understanding when I joined and I was taking over from the previous co-chairs, Sunny and Akisha, was that the CFP was a space for, EICFP was a space for student affairs professionals who are supporting students in equity seeking groups. But there there was a little bit of questioning around that um at the time. like Is that what the group is for? Because there's some other folks showing up. um there Or sometimes our conversations would turn out that we were taking care of ourselves. There's group therapy happening. And so there there was, even though that was, if you ask folks, that that's what they would think the space was for. There was some questioning. And when I took it over before, the year before, I can't take credit for this.
00:07:34
Speaker
In 2019, Sonya Keisha, the former co chairs, did a lengthy group consultation, because there were folks who felt like they needed a separate space, and they were student affairs professionals who were racialized and indigenous.
00:07:50
Speaker
And so the ah out of the constellations, over 75% of folks said, yes, they they did think they a separate space was needed. And about 67, 68% of folks thought it should be a separate group and separate name. And so that kind of helped. I mentioned all this just to um say that that really helped solidify the identity of the EDICOP. When this separate space came,
00:08:14
Speaker
ah which i started ah um I started that in 2020, which was an important year for folks to have that space for racialized indigenous folks. And that really helped make the EDI COP a space that could just focus on um student affairs professionals who are serving students from equities, serving groups, and the student affairs professionals, they could be from whatever identity, whereas the other group specifically was for non-white folks.
00:08:41
Speaker
Okay, and Dwayne, do you want to elaborate a little bit about that other group?
AgGRIP: A Supportive Space for Racialized Professionals
00:08:45
Speaker
um what ah Like, what does that look like? How do folks connect? What is it called? Yeah, of course. and so That space is called the affinity group for racialized and indigenous student affairs professionals, very long title. ah Just before Zenith and I wrapped up our tenure, we we decided to abbreviate it to AgGrip, kind of like get a grip, which kind of worked really well. Yeah. um So the space was really an informal space. so So much of student affairs as a profession, as we all know, is is the caring and the focus towards our work. ah No one really stumbles into student affairs ah with these you know dreams of making tons of money and being executive CEOs and all those sorts of pieces. Student affairs is by by default ah ah a culture of caring and a culture of support for young people ah in particular.
00:09:32
Speaker
um So for folks who work in that space and happen to be Indigenous or racialized, um as we can see across Canada, ah they're fairly un underrepresented. um We're just now starting to see a shift of more racialized folks joining the profession, more Indigenous folks joining the profession for a long time. This wasn't a space where those folks occupied.
00:09:52
Speaker
ah So that space, Agri was an opportunity for those folks who might have been the only racialized person in their department or their team or in some cases their institution ah to actually come together and just to see and engage and converse with people who looked like them, who had shared experiences with them and can navigate some of those things that are unspoken in the workplace.
00:10:12
Speaker
um What's it like to be the only person who has a different cultural practice? What's it like to be the only person who's experiencing potential racism or discrimination or is building strong connections with students that are racialized but don't know how to really compute that into the work that they're doing? ah Because not no no one else around them is understanding the value of that that relationship.
00:10:33
Speaker
um So that's really what that space is for. It's been incredible, the times that it's been there, ah both when Zeth and I were facilitating that space. And since since then going to that space, we actually just came from one of those meetings, which was really awesome. um And what's amazing about that space is that it really ranges from everything.
00:10:51
Speaker
I think Zenith mentioned it earlier, it could have been ah kind of like a pseudo group therapy session where folks just kind of come into the space and share ah whatever it is that's troubling them and they feel that sense of community and support all the way through to spaces of just joy, um where people were still celebrating each other's wins and successes and their experiences and being able to talk openly about what they were doing and and why it was important to them. um So that space continues to exist for racialized Indigenous student first professionals and I think it's a really important space because there isn't a lot of them like that. ah So caucus really is leading the way by providing that space and facilitating the opportunity for folks to connect there. Absolutely. Yeah. And I can certainly sense that on top of
00:11:35
Speaker
The additional like labor maybe it might be the right word, but the the additional work that comes with perhaps being among the only folks of a particular identity on your team.
Evolving Diversity in Caucus Events
00:11:43
Speaker
like You might get different calls or asks or invitations from students and committees. um that kind of ah It just adds an extra layer of consideration for some folks um who are working at predominantly white institutions, which is how you might describe most of our institutions in Canada.
00:11:59
Speaker
um And that's an interesting kind of segue for me over to Jen a little bit, because I remember Jen and I go way back, we were residence managers together at the University of Guelph, where Jen founded a kind of an affinity group for residence advisors ah in in that similar way. um And that's not what this podcast is about, but that's just a link that I made in my mind. But Jen, I recall, um you know, early days, for me at least, for caucus, that you were part of certain conversations. um There were certain And I don't even know how to describe it. there was certain Maybe it started with some some sessions, some workshops that people had put put in proposals. and Those were in the in my view, and again, I don't know the total history, but maybe some of the early gathering spaces. But I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what you view as the trajectory in terms of maybe some of the ah foundation before the COP model came into play.
00:12:51
Speaker
Oh my gosh, happy to. I would say that like everyone, one of my curiosities as a professional is what is everyone's relationship with caucus and how has that relationship evolved? ah So i I can speak for my relationship with caucus as an early professional. It seemed like the the space of gathering for the managers and above, even though our titles are residence managers, we were student facing staff members, we were in housing, we had Ookuo, and then maybe it was the student life folks or the counseling folks who were got to go to these national conferences that were often not in Ontario at the time that I was coming up. um And I heard these narratives. So there was you know this one narrative that sticks out from you know my my mentor and residence manager who, when I was a student, that was ah Memorial, Newfoundland,
00:13:37
Speaker
lots of drinking, lots of kitchen partying. And I was just like, really? Where does the learning happen? Like you could tell where my my kind of focus and locus is. And it was when I went to my first call caucus, which was in Edmonton. And I did take the opportunity to fly into Vancouver and drive for the first time across the Rockies and get to know our land and um It was really interesting to be in that space as a newer professional. It was a ah you know an opportunity that I had to apply for and get funding for and kind of do some of the extra labor on my campus. And when I got there, there wasn't a lot of people who were like me. And it was one of my first times outside of Ontario to say,
00:14:14
Speaker
meant this whole thing that I'm contributing to in the GTA, which is a very specific space in our country, um with very specific narratives that aligned lots of people like me, parent first generation students, first generation graduates, first generation professionals, and then seeing the rest of the country and say, wow, you know, this isn't necessarily what's happening across the whole country. That evolved as I took on more responsibilities and and evolved in my um leadership to then stewarding folks going to caucus. And something I recognized very, very quickly and at TMU was that for many of my staff who had never left Toronto, um this was their first opportunity again to get to know neo geographical lands and to have this kind of awareness of
00:14:55
Speaker
Many of our institutions are predominantly white, especially at the time. um You know, we we did not have the kind of focus center we currently have today with lots of, you know, immigration and by immigration coming through and and international students so it was a very like it kind of feels like the distant memory like what I tell people, I used to go to conferences and there used to be a lot of white folks there, and I actually ate lunch alone.
00:15:15
Speaker
and, you know, and interacted with, I haven't actually been to Newfoundland yet, but heard stories about Screech for the first time as ah something that for some of our members is absolutely a part of their cultural identity and absolutely a part of who they are and what they do. um So both these deep learning opportunities and then also these like stewarding of of very clear experiences for my staff that were really, really terrible, racist. you know um I had a staff member who got carded in charles Charlottetown when we were there for the PEI. And so this very juxtaposed dance for me as a leader in terms of, I believe in caucus, I believe in our communities, I believe in these conversations that were just described in terms of what currently happens, and they were not in the mix yet.
00:15:59
Speaker
So I think that is something that I hold very deep in my heart as ah maybe an elder millennial, an elder and her in our field, um that really, really worked through, you know, we we started doing at TMU, we started doing pre-workshops for before people went to campus, before people went to caucus, talking about where we were going geographically, what might happen, how that might land, and this is kind of pre-COP. So I wanted the answer of, and when you're there,
00:16:27
Speaker
this amazing group of folks is going to be there and a lunch is going to be available and you're going to be able to go ahead and meet other people who, um you know, maybe have similar re responsibilities on campus and and hopefully, you know, connections will happen. So um i the first meetup that I can remember after lots and lots and lots of these feelings um was Ottawa. So I think there was a little bit of ah of a apex of emotion and I'm in my memory, Vancouver. um I think after the Vancouver conference,
00:16:54
Speaker
ah There was kind of like a call. um I know there was an Oscar so white movement that kind of was matched on social media by caucus so white. um And so I have a lived memory of riding my bike to Ottawa, which is something that the TMU folks chose to do that year. And so this lived memory is quite fuzzy because I was recovering from a very intense physical challenge um of just going around the biomarker market with with other racialized folks and just saying, hey, this is our time. um And then certainly I'm so proud to hear of the evolution of that. And, you know, gave lots of support to any staff members on my on my campus who put forward their names. And at the time, I think also this like really cool magical moment where Sanya was doing research and folks were having conversations and we were no longer kind of saying, oh, I'm going to go to this conference for four days and be super uncomfortable.
00:17:44
Speaker
you know, we are actually saying, no, this is absolutely a conversation that should happen for us and most importantly should happen for our students. So even that question of like the birth of the COP and should it be for folks who are supporting equity deserving students or should it be for us? What a magical question because certainly my birth into the field, those questions weren't on the table at all. um So certainly it's it's pretty cool to to see the evolution of it. Awesome. Thanks, Jen. Thank you.
00:18:11
Speaker
um um I'm curious about, because now we've got Zenith and Dwayne, who are, I think, led to the COP during a really critical moment, um picking it up from, was it Sonya and Akisha, who was, yeah.
Leadership Transition and Sustainable EDI Practices
00:18:28
Speaker
And then since then, we've got new leadership involved with the different facets of the COP, and I think the COP and Agripp kind of having distinct leadership and having distinct foci.
00:18:42
Speaker
um I'm just curious to know about like, what does the COP get up to like what if I if I was to promote this to a new professional and like you got to join caucus, you need to connect with the COP or with Agrib, what would what would be kind of the ah like the bullet point, like emotional rationale to join. Like what what would they get out of it? Zenith, can we start with you? Yeah, yeah. um It was, it was, you know, like three years altogether and there were COVID years and my memory is terrible. So I actually took some notes. So I would remember. So like, I don't know what we did.
00:19:18
Speaker
So I took a look at kind of the different monthly calls and each we'd meet once a month and we'd have a theme. um So Dwayne and I, we'd we'd meet ahead of time, we'd come up with like a topic and we'd have some discussion questions and we'd send out the question with some bullet points. Sometimes if you find a good resource, like an article or something, we'd attach that if we wanted folks to do pre-reading.
00:19:37
Speaker
But here's a range here's some of the range of topics that we explored during that time. um we um We did monthly topics that focus on universal universal design for learning, so UDL. um We talked about EDI-focused policies and programs and practices for queer students, staff, faculty. We talked about student financial insecurity that calls specifically about textbook costs and the need for going moving to open to um and free textbooks.
00:20:05
Speaker
um We talked about integrating EDI to the whole return to campus. um We always had annual planning meetings, um like what should we do this coming year? So we hear from folks, they give us these monthly topic ideas. We had expert panels, ah our presentations. So someone came in and talked to us about UDL, who specifically ah works on UDL at her institution. We talked about institutional responses to COVID and racial justice movements. We talked about that for many, many months.
00:20:33
Speaker
We had, again, someone come in and do a whole session on EDI equitable hiring practices with hiring students, because they tried something at their institution. And then Dwayne and I, we worked up a lot on creating a like a national survey to survey folks who are doing EDI work, like um maybe EDI role, because there seemed to be such a discrepancy between titles, contract versus permanent, how much you're getting paid, because it's a new industry. and And so yeah, Dwayne might want to speak to that more. But there's some of the things that I jotted down. Amazing. That's a good segue to go over to Dwayne with some of the things that stick out for you in terms of what the COP has been up to.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, thanks so much for that, and thanks for the the segue there, Zenith. I think, yeah, what Zenith highlighted is is is incredible, right? Really, if I were to turn this into an elevator pitch for anyone to join, I would say, if you're someone who cares about um social impact or someone who cares about ah justice and equity and diversity and inclusion,
00:21:33
Speaker
on campuses and for students. This is a space for you because you're going to learn something. There's always going to be a topic or a session that we're engaging with um that will ah benefit your practice, and benefit the work you're doing, benefit the students that you're supporting. um In terms of the things that stood out to me, I really think that survey that Zenith ended off with ah was the one that that stood out the most. um We haven't gotten to fruition with that. I know that the current EDI COP co-chairs are working on it and working with caucus on it. um But the idea really there is um ah kind of to ah evolve from what Jen was seeing, right? We're going from a ah practice of ah we're not seeing racialized folks in student affairs all the way through. Now we are seeing racialized folks in student affairs and now we're seeing people actually committed to doing work in student affairs that are, that are, whether it's supporting racialized folks or being racialized themselves. um And what we're seeing that we do with the emergence of any new industry
00:22:25
Speaker
is discrepancies, right? At these EDICOP calls, we would have folks who are like, I'm a senior vice president of equity, diversity, and inclusion at my institution, and I was just hired. And we'd have someone who's like, I'm on a three month contract to do an anti-racism session. And they were both, their mandates and their job descriptions fundamentally might might have been the same, but the the leadership, the power, and their ability to implement change was so vastly different.
00:22:51
Speaker
So that I think is really where I see the future of the EDI COP going, ah is not just being a space where folks can connect and share knowledge, but where they can actually mobilize knowledge and push the practice even further. ah Start talking about how do we start to identify best hiring practices for the EDI professionals? How do we start to identify compensation ah equity? How do we start to recognize unpaid labour that comes with being someone who is navigating not just the structural dynamics of student affairs, but the emotional dynamics of that as well by supporting marginalized and racialized communities. um So I think that's the stuff that excites me about the future, but it's stuff that's happening right now. So like almost kind of like the present. It's hard to say that it's just the future.
00:23:36
Speaker
that's that's really Oh, yeah, go for it. Yes, because I just made a connection to my brain. While this work was happening in 2020, I was on out on the board of caucus appointed by Mark Solomon. um And at the exact same time, if I could add to the elevator pitch, Mark and I were making um very clear ah moves to diversify the board.
00:23:55
Speaker
So to make sure that the members of the next board were folks from deserving backgrounds and spaces, um certainly representation across our country. So one of the things that I think I'm super curious about and one of the reasons I returned to caucus, it does look different.
00:24:11
Speaker
it does look different across our country. And so definitely um at the same time, unbeknownst to me, and maybe this is a little bit of the the COVID part, you know, we went out with a call for folks to go ahead and run for the board who are from very specific backgrounds, very specific geographical locations. um And so my elevator pitch is hopefully as folks get engaged in the COP, they're also knowing that the board, you know, the highest table of governance for our organization is absolutely a welcoming space there. um And certainly those conversations that Mark and I led, um I'm very grateful to Mark for appointing me in that in that position. We had a very clear mandate. He and I were on the phone and we were saying, awesome, let's make sure that that caucus is so white. And eliminating that and eradicating that and you know making moves on that goes all the way out to the board itself. So yes, that's my pitch. Make sure that you know that you're welcome on the board.
00:25:04
Speaker
Absolutely, and I feel I have appreciated that also those conversations have been quite expansive and so in addition for, you know, prioritizing the ah recruitment of, you know, black and indigenous and race racialized folks who are in student affairs roles and it's also been thinking around, you know,
00:25:25
Speaker
ah ah other forms of kind of identity around, you know, disabilities and sexual and gender identities and really thinking intersectionally around what does, our like, what does this look like as an organization? How does our student population be reflected in our staffing and reflected in our kind of our student in our kind of caucus leadership um across the board? And I think that's been really driven by a lot of the folks who have been involved with the EDI COP and that's been really lovely to see.
00:25:51
Speaker
um The two things I just want to kind of want to reflect back, ah ah even hearing from what Duane was saying, was around kind of who was this for and kind of picking up on what Sennik was saying is that there's folks who might have a particular role where it might be in your title.
Continuous EDI Work and Tiered Programming
00:26:06
Speaker
It might be, you know, I might be a black student engagement coordinator. I might be an EDI.
00:26:10
Speaker
manager. um And seeing the need for folks to connect across, you know, comparing notes, here's what I'm doing at my institution, here's it working at my institution. But then also understanding that there's people who might not have that title, that in their title, but should also be picking up this work that I always say this, that um if our sustainability office is the only people who are recycling, we're doing it wrong.
00:26:33
Speaker
And I kind of feel like also about our EDI work like if only our EDI offices and our EDI positions are doing, you know, quote unquote EDI work, ah then maybe That's not the right way to do it. Like it should be distributed across all sorts of different roles. Everyone who's doing hiring should be thinking about equitable hiring. Everyone who is doing program planning should be thinking about UDL. um And so I was really excited to hear Zenith you breaking down that list of the stuff that is on offer because it's the intersectional approach. The topics are are really valuable and thinking about how to equip folks with the skills and experiences to do their jobs well in 2024 in a culturally responsive way.
00:27:09
Speaker
um So I'm curious, and you don't have to disclose kind of, I know you just came from a discussion, but I'm curious to know what are folks in the COP talking about today? Like what is on people's minds? What are folks, and I feel like it sounded like for a while there was really about how folks are are coping with or being impacted by um pandemic and not that it's all over, but where where are people at today? what are What's on the agenda for the COP today? And I know you're not the current co-chairs, but if you could just give me a sense of what might be on people's minds, Duane, are we okay to start with you?
00:27:45
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Happy to start. um Yeah, we're not the current co-chairs, but we were in touch with the current co-chairs, which is nice. So we can do our best to answer this question. I think what the the big focus is for the COP right now is is looking at how do we improve the practices and expand the practices that you just spoke about, Adam.
00:28:04
Speaker
um So there's a lot of conversation around ah standardizing things, implementing policies at institutions, um ensuring that ah programming is sustainable. I think what we saw in the post-secondary sector is what we're seeing a lot in a lot of sectors ah in 2020 during the pandemic and after the murder of George Floyd.
00:28:24
Speaker
a lot of organizations and institutions started to invest in EDI, anti-racism, and so forth. um And what we're seeing now is a pulling back four years later, where we've seen it happen in a lot of tech industry spaces, we're starting to see it happen in some corporate spaces as well. um So I think the conversation right now in the EDI COP is, how do we make sure that pulling back doesn't happen?
00:28:47
Speaker
in the post-secondary space. How do we implement policies and practices and programs that are sustainable, that are long-term, that will continue to exist regardless of the political shifts and ideologies that come and go with every election cycle? um What does that look like? How do we continue to make this this change you know and a longevity change and a sustainable change? um So they're definitely having conversations in that space.
00:29:12
Speaker
And I think that ties in really well into some of those bigger projects we already mentioned, like that survey piece. um Because when you start to identify those structural challenges, those gaps ah in processes and policies and operations, ah then they're harder to ignore. ah you can start You can start to implement change that is going to be long lasting. ah We see it all the time whenever a report comes out from Universities Canada or another reputable organization or institution that kind of puts all the institutions on blast and says, hey, you're all doing this wrong. ah Suddenly, there's a massive of structural change. um And I think that's kind of the the approach that we're seeing um practitioners in the space taking and that we're seeing the EDI COP start to to invest in as well. Awesome. Thanks, Dwayne. Zenith, what about you? what's What's on your perspective on what's on the mind of folks who are involved with the COP?
00:30:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, again, i haven't since stepping down in July, I haven't attended any of the sessions. But being my role right now is an EDI role. I work in EDI and research. And I sit in the office of EDI. So I'm kind of seeing what folks who are very involved in the work, what they're having to deal with. um The province that I'm in also has a very, going through its own thing with the current government trying to take EDI out of post-secondary institutions. all this So always a battle to be fought. But I think what You know, and twenty so some institutions had EDI programs pre-2020, but a lot of them it was 2020 onwards. And now it's like three years in, three plus years in. I see two things. One is, well, we we've had this around for a while. Like we've gone to a couple of these workshops, some of these programming, like don't we all kind of know? Like haven't we all upped our EDI competency? Like what else is there to know? I feel like sometimes you get a sense of that, right?
00:31:01
Speaker
um And then something happens, some big world crisis happens or some racial justice movement starts up and you realize how much work we all still have to do. So for me, one thing that I want to push for is like we're not done because we've had EDI around for three years or EDI offices programs like we're not done. We're so far from being done. like We have no idea.
00:31:22
Speaker
And the second thing is, even if you run EDI programs, like EDI, COPs probably having conversations with others, other groups, we had some great joint sessions with other COPs, like even even if you've been running programming or talking about policies.
00:31:38
Speaker
and you've got like a certain level of competency you've reached, how do you now offer tiered programming? like How do you challenge folks who've been doing it for a couple of years um so they don't feel like there's nothing left for them? And then how do you still also offer um stuff for people who are completely new to the space and have patience for them? Like yesterday, and one of my colleagues ran a session with um folks from all over the world, international students, who spoke English as additional language. And for them, a lot of the language pronouns too.
00:32:06
Speaker
gender neutral bathrooms was brand new and they really struggled with that. So how do we like, I think that's kind of my big thing. Like the EDI COP is going to continue having all kinds of conversations because we're not done. We're far from being done.
00:32:19
Speaker
Yeah, two really, I mean a lot of really great points to the points that are sticking out for me is that I think there's, in some ways, some folks have the illusion that like yeah we've worked, we're, we're done, we can relax and you're like no this requires constant vigilance and constant rest and restoration like this is a long, long.
00:32:38
Speaker
all. um And then also just thinking around those multiple entry points for folks who have been doing their work for quite a while. And I feel like sometimes the equity discourse can be kind of fast forwarding. And then there's folks who are just kind of trying to, who are curious, who are committed, but you know might be feeling left out because they can't participate in kind of some of those higher level conversations. So how do we create those rungs on the ladder for people to engage and participate?
00:33:02
Speaker
um Jen, how
Competency Frameworks in EDI Efforts
00:33:04
Speaker
about you? what's on What are you sensing? I'm so glad that we talked about competencies um and we brought up competency and certainly cannot agree more that the goal here is constant growth um and that we don't know. We don't know who will be welcoming into our communities. Like I have to remind myself and my team always that every single class is absolutely, we can trend, we can talk about, you know, what we do know about the classes that we currently have, but on day one,
00:33:32
Speaker
residence women day orientation, those individual humans with their individual stories may or may not fit what we just trended, right? And I think the caucus EDI, COP is the the kind the country trends and and certainly all of this effort. And then how do we distill that down to the individual humans, both students and staff and faculty and any anyway any other members of our higher education community that are that are engaged with this. And um the competency framework that caucus offered out to the community was a game changer.
00:34:01
Speaker
um It was different. It named the competencies that right now we're saying, hey, we can't finish. Before that, there was nothing. It was just like, are you a good human or not? How do we measure that? And certainly, how do we measure what we are up to in terms of learning and continuous learning? So I am like that person on campus that's like the caucus competencies exist. They absolutely could be reviewed and should be reviewed. And I hope that the COP is invited um to update that document. It's it's a little bit already dated, right? And at the same time, you you know, my team knows that nauseam that certainly the the teacher in me is like we we can and should continue to sharpen our tools and make sure that we're meeting the needs of of today's students. um this This conversation has reminded me how strong the foundation of community is. um This started from folks saying I don't feel included or going and sometimes for me it was months later.
00:34:50
Speaker
Actually, actually, I don't like I feel like sometimes we would have a chat and I don't would be like, I had the best time ever I met all these people and I'm like, oh my god, I sat alone in the cafeteria for sure during that whole thing right and so the evolution to competency development being able to name and grow is is super important.
00:35:07
Speaker
um And a document that I've been finding some great inspiration and rest in ah is our sister organization down south to us. ACPA has published a strategic imperative for racial justice and decolonization.
00:35:22
Speaker
um it is 25 pages of you know scholars in it interesting settings, I think sometimes, are our neighbors to the south, um really naming love as the center of all racial justice and decolonization work. um This is the document that I show to my ah colleagues who maybe don't believe that love should be on the table in higher education and say, hey, here's all these scholars. Here's what love means, things like radical acceptance of our responsibility, humanizing each other, critical consciousness.
00:35:53
Speaker
There's a beautiful little wheel that is like burned in my brain and I hope in the brains of folks who I've introduced the model to. um And so I'd say that as a reminder that community for me is, of course, those who of us who are in the room and then all of our colleagues across the world who are trying to make the world a better place. um Yeah. Come to mind. Wonderful. Thanks, Jen. As we're entering kind of our final question, I guess, of our our interview today,
00:36:20
Speaker
um I just wanted to invite, maybe it's connected around this, oh, sorry, before I get into the last question, I almost forgot about the mentorship program.
Success of Empowerment Mentorship Program
00:36:30
Speaker
um Zenith, Duane, are you able to speak a little bit about the mentorship program? I can't recall if it's out of the COP or out of Agrib, but I feel like that has been um very, very successful. And I wanna make sure that we talk about it. Zenith, can we start with you?
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah, i will i wouldn't I won't be able to say much in terms of kind of the organizational structure, but I'm participating in it. So I have kind of that first-hand experience, but um it it came out of community consultations as well. And caucus put EDI on the strategic plan from 2017 to 2021. And we always felt very supported from folks from senior leadership and they hired staff.
00:37:15
Speaker
who were able to take care of programs. So, you know, they hired someone who took care of this apartment program and so that to us really showed commitment. And Dwayne and I would always advertise it, would always, you know,
00:37:26
Speaker
um promoted in our space. And then since stepping down from the COP, if you're in leadership roles, I have become a mentor. And so just wanted to say that it is um it it has been um yeah it has been a great program that's that's really doable. um So i would if you want an elevator pitch, I would say anyone who has time um to you know meet with someone once a month um and have some kind of mentorship or relationship. um If you can fit that in your schedule, like it's really a worthwhile program to be part of. I've really enjoyed being a mentor this year. And the fact that it's it's ongoing, it's something that will ah has a sustainable um plan that gives me a lot of hope. so yeah Awesome. And just so i' it's the empowerment, is that what it's called? The Empowerment Mentorship Program?
00:38:19
Speaker
the but Empower me. Empower me. and very think that t we just call him Okay and it's for Black and Indigenous and POC folks to connect with ah mentors, mentees across lots of different functional areas and have heard like wonderful things. I think excellent facilitators. um So I think yeah I just I can't have this conversation without talking about this amazing initiative, which I think i think sometimes with communities of practice, people are like, okay, I can show up to meetings or I can go to sessions, but what else is there? And I feel like this is a ah really active thing that is connected in the caucus ecosystem. That's been really successful. Okay.
00:39:03
Speaker
So in terms of moving towards our wrap up question, I'm just wondering, we've spoken a little bit about the origins of the COP and Agrib, what's on people's minds.
Professionalizing EDI Practices for the Future
00:39:12
Speaker
um I kind of want to wrap up around a little bit like future thinking. um And we've got a taste of that I think when you were starting to think about what's on your mind for the future.
00:39:21
Speaker
um But what are the conversations we should be having? What are the things that you're seeing on the horizon, kind of two or three steps ahead that both the COP or even just from your perspective as you know excellent colleagues, um it is on your mind? um Jen, can we start with you? Of course we can. um I think the power of intergenerational storytelling is really, really important at this juncture. um So I reflect for myself and I often have to answer this question for myself. um Why do I keep on coming to work? Why do I keep on persisting in this field? I do not have colleagues currently who are racialized by POC. I do a lot of the same work that I always have. um And I do that in service of the folks who are working with me to make sure that we are representing our students and making that happen.
00:40:17
Speaker
And I do that with the gas and the energy of knowing that the folks who came before me also fought lots of fights. So the women in our field who made the residence environment a teaching learning environment, instead of some of the other environments that it was in the 70s and 80s and you can just go look at those movies to see what those environments were.
00:40:34
Speaker
um I think deeply about those stories heard as a new professional from those women who are alive and well still today, um you know, and what their contributions were and I absolutely go to those narratives when I need a little bit of an extra push to get through the conversation that I need to converse with someone to make sure that the funding is there for those programs to be sustainable.
00:40:54
Speaker
um And so I think at this juncture, and I think this this initiative of making sure that our history is captured, um you know, capturing some of those stories of those folks, I know many of them are actually retiring. So some of my mentors, um who are absolutely white identified folks, because that's who's in the field.
00:41:11
Speaker
um and lots of the work that they did to make sure that I have a seat at the table, that I am prepared and and able to be successful in my current role, which I hope is what I continue to do down to the next generation. um I think it's really important to capture those stories while folks are alive and well. Awesome. Thanks, Jen. Duane, are you OK to go next? Yeah, that's great. I think and think a lot of what Jen shares, it resonates with me.
00:41:37
Speaker
um i i'm I'm a process guy. i like I like process, I like progress, I like plans, I like seeing what's next. And the thing that I think is a single idea that has been i kind of just embedded in my brain the past few years as an EDICOP co-chair and sense is the professionalization of the practice. I still see that we are at a place where um folks are working in or entering the student affairs profession um with the same sort of ah gusto that people enter the nonprofit sector with this idea that if you care about it, that's enough. If you're a good person, that's enough. ah You just got to be nice. And then you can do the work. um And I think that that is is all the well meaning it can also create a lot of harm.
00:42:22
Speaker
um When people come in with the um an absence of knowledge and absence of awareness and absence of competencies really right we're talking about absence of competencies and equity diversity inclusion anti racism. Our world is becoming more diverse every single day, ah we can't change it soon sooner or later Canada will be.
00:42:41
Speaker
ah not Toronto won't be the outlier in Canada, right, of of this sort of metropolitan, ah diverse communities of of folks that are first generation and onwards. um We're starting to see that happen everywhere around the world, and that's just the nature of human evolution. um And I think more and more we need to look at the professionalization of the practice to ensure that EDI isn't ah siloed to one office, siloed to one role, siloed to one position. That just becomes a core competency of your job every single day.
00:43:09
Speaker
equitable hiring practices won't necessarily be a workshop that we need to do because everyone just is going to be doing equitable hiring practices. It becomes a standard ah function. um So I think that's where I would love to see the future of this work go. And I think spaces like the EDICOP are critical for that because they're where that knowledge is being developed and retained and then shared with others. Love it. Thanks, Dwayne. And Zenith, are we okay to end with you?
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah, um it's always great to see where different people's minds go. you know All three of us have three different answers. For me, what came to mind, and probably it's related to recent conversations, like folks will end up being in EDI specific roles or not, because a lot of different folks care about equity, no but what roles they're in. and EDI work should be all of our work, right? That's something that we often have to repeat. But just seeing folks not being supported by management, so the importance of having good leadership and good management and having healthy work, workplaces.
00:44:20
Speaker
because a lot of folks who are doing whatever kind of roles they're doing, but folks who are speaking to me often are in EDI specific roles. Folks aren't being appreciated, they aren't being supported, they're being gaslit, there all kinds of things are happening and folks burn out and folks leave.
00:44:35
Speaker
like you you lose as HR and HR speak you leave lose talent you lose quality talent and so there are folks who are who are on the ground trying to do this work who really believe in this and are showing up every day and showing up for the students and doing this equity work but if they're not being supported if that means really looking at whether hybrid work is something that would really support your department you know if that means making sure folks have flexibility in vacation days because they aren't only taking vacation in December whatever that means but if you're not going to
00:45:06
Speaker
support your your employees, like folks are going to leave higher education and and there's been a huge drain anyway in higher education. That's something that's happening and we're losing a lot of people and so I think that for me is really important. There are people doing the work, support them so that they stay.
Community and Love in Sustaining EDI Efforts
00:45:23
Speaker
What a beautiful kind of spot to conclude our conversation because I also think that it is a
00:45:33
Speaker
endorsement of the critical importance of groups like the EDI, COP and AgRep. So as you're doing the work, the day-to-day work on your campus in your role, having a community that can help sustain your work where you can ah leverage those resources and that support, learn from one another, kind of exchange tactics to um to be effective in your day-to-day work and also lean on each other um is is critical, I think. um Speaking of that love, like I think that those connections are a ah form of love. And I don't think we see that when we're talking about communities of practice all the time. I think we see it as you know we're gathering across regions and roles and functional areas, but it really is that that but love that is that kind of hemming it together so that we can go back to our day-to-day jobs, to our desks, and sustain that important and critical work.
00:46:21
Speaker
um So thank you so much for the dialogue today. I could have chatted with you for hours and hours, but sadly we have to conclude at some point, but thank you so much for your time today.
00:46:50
Speaker
The Moral History Project is an initiative of the Canadian Association of College and University Student Services in recognition of our organization's 50 years of engaging student affairs professionals in Canada. The series of podcasts is recorded and produced by Sean Fast, Adam Kuehn, Nicholas Fast, Rachel Barreca, Stephanie Mulettoller, Noah Arney, Sally Chen, Estefania Toledo, Paula Jean Broderick, Jennifer Brown, Margaret De Leon, and Becca Gray.
00:47:21
Speaker
Intro and outro music is courtesy of Alexei Stryabchi. This podcast is recorded, produced, and published on the traditional territories of hundreds of Indigenous nations from across the northern half of Turtle Island, also known by its settler-colonial name Canada. We are grateful for the opportunity to live, work, and learn on this land. Miigwetch.