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GSD Episode 11: Friso Kuiper
60 Plays1 month ago
We kick off 2026 with Friso Kuiper, Lead Senior Analyst, Market Research and Business Analysis at Tufts University. The discussion gets into the weeds of using IPEDS data to analyze program opportunities. We also talk about Higher Education Data Labs, Friso's upcoming venture to create a data platform that provides enhanced IPEDS to higher education market research and institutional research professionals.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Getting Stuff Done in Higher Education'
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome back to Getting Stuff Done in Higher Education. I am Fritz Vandover, one of your co-hosts along, as always, with Kevin Schreiner and Kelvin Bentley.
Guest Introduction: Friso Kuyper
00:00:23
Speaker
to getting stuff done in higher education i am fritz vanover one of your co-hosts along ahwe as always with kevin schriiner and kelvin bentley Today we have a really interesting guest. We have Friso Kuyper who is works in market research at Tufts University in Boston. So Friso, thanks so much for joining us today. And let's talk about how you're getting stuff done at Tufts.
00:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. i'm I'm very thankful and honored to be here. So you've been asked by your university to make a statement of disclaimer. So go ahead and disclaim and we will then talk all about you.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So I'll just note from the outset that the views I'm sharing today are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or position of my employer. And I'll be speaking from my professional experience and perspective. And of course, I'll avoid discussing confidential proprietary information.
00:01:17
Speaker
And I would highlight, I've not explicitly been asked to say just that, but but shared it here. That sounds reasonable. yeah Yeah. So, you know, one thing we like to do when we start off talking to a guest is we like to talk about what's brought you to where you are right now.
Friso's Educational Journey
00:01:38
Speaker
What's the path meandering or linear that you've had into and through higher education that has brought you to this moment at Tufts University? And so that we often start there. So tell us about you.
00:01:53
Speaker
Yeah, I'll say my my path has definitely not been a straight line. and And I think it starts with my relationship with education in general. um I wasn't the best high school student. Since then, I'd like to think I've made a 180.
00:02:06
Speaker
I was very distracted by sports and then other teenage distractions. And I should add, I actually grew up in the Netherlands, a different educational system than here in the U.S. But I'll get to how like how I got to the U.S.
00:02:23
Speaker
After high school, I started law school in the Netherlands. I dropped out within half a year or so. And afterwards, I actually ended up studying abroad at St. Michael's College in Vermont here in the US, which was a really cool experience and and kind of transformative um for me there. I took some business coursework that I think ignited some interest that I later pursued and and got me to where I am today.
00:02:51
Speaker
um Afterwards, I did an undergraduate degree in business, a dual degree with an institution in the Netherlands with one in the UK. So there i had another international move.
00:03:05
Speaker
um But altogether, it it exposed me to different disciplines, different institutions, at different countries and cultures. And overall, I think that sparked that interest and in coming to the US in the long run. Why I didn't pursue that immediately, I actually started working at a startup, a food delivery
Transition to Career in Higher Education
00:03:24
Speaker
startup.
00:03:24
Speaker
It's called Deliveroo, similar to like the DoorDash and Grubhub here in the US. It was high-paced like most startups. It was intense. I think it was great for exposing me to to the business side of things, operations, entrepreneurship.
00:03:40
Speaker
um But after doing that for a year, I followed my now wife to the US. She got a job in rural Southern Virginia. in a private K-9 through 12 school.
00:03:52
Speaker
So that's kind of where my exposure to education started or my professional career in education started. Since then, we I did the same thing and ah at a school in Colorado and we moved to Worcester, Mass., where we are now.
00:04:07
Speaker
And there I started my job hunt, which wasn't very easy. And I got to talking to some people. i got to talking to some advisors um at my MBA program that i followed at the time at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign.
00:04:23
Speaker
And they suggested I think about and look into working in higher education. So I did apply to a bunch of roles, including the one I am in at now at Tufts. And I was actually intrigued during my first hiring conversation with the HR manager and later with the executive director of the office that I work in now and got very, very interested in in what goes on. And initially I had thought it's it's the bigger version of a K9 through 12. And I have learned since then, it's it's much more complex. And there's many, many different types of opportunities that are here.
00:04:56
Speaker
um So definitely not a straight line. So give us a sense of the time span of this, you know, this is a lot to happen. Is this between mean, look, we're old, three of us, you know, like, so we, we span decades, but does this happen, you know, like in the 20 teens or because you know, we've got MBA, you've got multiple degrees, you've got yeah different roles, moves, et cetera.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, so um I didn't follow the standard timeline. I graduated my undergraduate in 2017, moved to the U.S. in 2018, started working in 2019. So let's say the last decade or so.
00:05:33
Speaker
I've been at Tufts. I'm going into year four now. I finished my MBA three years ago. That's action-packed. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on.
Business Perspective in Higher Education
00:05:43
Speaker
I will say I'm um i'm a little bit of a newbie in the industry, so I still have a lot to learn, but it's been it's been a really interesting experience so far.
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, so, and guys, you know, Kelvin, Kevin, jump in. I have millions of questions now, all sorts, but I'll try to keep it to what you're doing at Tufts right now. But um tell us about, so i think, I know if you're the first guest we've had on who has an MBA and doesn't have, you know, like,
00:06:11
Speaker
this isn't This isn't commentary, negative positive. It's just you you're very new to higher ed. And it's often a space where newness, new people, it takes time to build credibility, which is a plus and a minus in a lot of ways. But you have an MBA background.
00:06:27
Speaker
When you get into the, and give us some context about the role you have now, but when you apply those lenses of business, administration, MBA, methodologies, worldview, et cetera,
00:06:39
Speaker
How does it look like you come and you're like, oh, wow, this is interesting or whoa, this place, this place is really messed up. What's that like? Yeah, you touch on a lot of things that were happening in my head.
00:06:52
Speaker
And even like cultural differences aside, higher ed in the US is is very well known, right? It has a very strong reputation. and For me, it was kind of scary.
00:07:04
Speaker
coming in without the traditional background that a lot of people working in higher ed do have. um But it's taken some time to get used to the pace in higher ed and understanding why that pace exists, also not necessarily a good or a bad thing.
00:07:20
Speaker
um But in my first few years, became evident that the work I was doing wasn't immediately, I wasn't immediately reaping the fruits of my work. And it took some time to get around to that and understand that seeing change takes time and and sometimes that's for the better.
00:07:38
Speaker
And over the last year or so, I've finally seen some of those things happen. and It's been really, really rewarding. So, Coming back on what I do, or what our office does, we really have two branches in our office, where and on one side, we support strategic initiatives and and the strategic alignment process, which is very vast and evolving yearly.
00:07:59
Speaker
And in another branch where where I reside, we do what we call market research and business analysis, where we provide strategic insights to various stakeholders within the university across levels. Sometimes we work with program directors. Sometimes we will work with school EADs and deans.
00:08:16
Speaker
But we also work with executive leadership. Our office resides in the Office of the Executive Vice President. Our office is called the Office of University Strategy and Program Development. It's a whole mouthful.
00:08:28
Speaker
We also support central administrative units. So we we kind of have this cross-unit collaborative approach from the from the onset. And to me, it's it's very interesting, the diverse set of projects that that brings to us and and the different insights
Role and Functions of Market Research at Tufts
00:08:46
Speaker
we get.
00:08:46
Speaker
So your unit, are you solely doing programmatic... ah programmatic market research opportunities for programs or you know I noticed in your the title of the unit it's business was a business operations I mean do you do you do consultative business ah work and collaboration with different units like help us streamline our you know business processes that that kind of thing Yes, it's all of the above, essentially. It's very broad and and it changes year over year too. Our office has expanded in the last few years and and we have a really cool, diverse group of people that work within our office. So some support strategic initiatives from a project project management perspective, while others support strategic planning for specific schools.
00:09:38
Speaker
And then we do programmatic market research. We do central institution strategic work. So it's yeah it's it's a lot of different things. so does So does the strategic plan then live within your organization? Or is it is it still at the president level, but yet you're kind of that middle player of ensuring that people are meeting their KPIs or understanding what those KPIs are?
00:10:05
Speaker
Like, are you are you you getting, like, really deep? Does your team guy get really, really deep into... Because I always find it... There's part of this, this is the question, right? Like, we use the term business operations at universities. we use We use... We throw in business terms, but there's always this, we're not a business, right? And so that's part of it, too, is, like,
00:10:30
Speaker
but But it is, i mean, higher ed is a business, whether we want to say it that way or not. So that's why I was just kind of curious, like how far down does or into the plan are you implementing across the rest of the university?
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah. ah in And too think in just thinking about that, the struggles from looking at things from a business lens, because you have an MBA versus the higher ed sometimes lens. The mission lens. Yeah.
00:10:58
Speaker
Yep. Yeah, it's a latter the latter. We don't own the strategic plan, but we support almost all aspects of it. And and I'll say there... several individuals in my office have very strong background background in consulting and we think of ourselves as kind of this internal consulting unit.
00:11:17
Speaker
um So we we support both the leadership level and in devising the strategic plan, but we're also at the ground level where we do a lot of the research that goes into the strategic plan, both across, like I said, the central units, but also the the decentralized schools and and units within them.
Strategic Planning and Budgeting at Tufts
00:11:35
Speaker
Interesting. So you it sounds like you do a lot of the opera upper in gosh i can't talk to operationalization of strategic plan goals. Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. And, you know, in the end, we're not responsible for those to take effect.
00:11:52
Speaker
But we do try to keep everyone across the institution aligned that we are moving forward on our goals. So how does does budget then flow through some if I go back to so when I was.
00:12:08
Speaker
Institutional effectiveness was the terminology that someone is using someone not use anymore, but responsible for strategic strategic planning institutional research, but also budgeting was somewhat in that, and so if a unit or department wanted.
00:12:26
Speaker
to do a new initiative, they had to have a budget that went along with it as long as it was aligned to the strategic plan. Are you all in that budget conversation? Like do you help colleges like think through like, yeah, there's a good market for something, but you know, you're going to need a million dollars in order to actually make that type of thing happen instead of, oh yeah, well no, we're just going to with our current resources. and We don't need any more money to invest or,
00:12:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's ah it's a good question. I think the answer is much more nuanced than I'm able to speak to. But we have a separate budget and and financial planning office that that owns that part of the um the the considerations, but we do work closely with them.
00:13:06
Speaker
So it all... kind of ties together when when we work on these things where we bring everyone in together and we evaluate, we try at least to evaluate everything from holistic lens.
00:13:18
Speaker
but But I think bringing everyone together is ah is a huge part of of making these decisions.
00:13:25
Speaker
So I'm, you know, this is really fascinating. So I'm interested in how your office, your team with you with whom you collaborate,
00:13:38
Speaker
how um coming from said you had colleagues who come from a consulting background how you all negotiate that landscape because i know how lot of people in universities look at people have consultative backgrounds business consultation business process improvement backgrounds frankly i know i look at them sometimes um how do you all negotiate that landscape how have you built credibility in a time when a lot you know a lot of people look at private, there's a lot of tension between hired and private sector right now. So how are you negotiating that landscape?
00:14:14
Speaker
Because it sounds like you're doing it well. Yeah, i I think so. I'm not the right person to really speak to that. That that resides more at our executive director and and senior director level.
00:14:27
Speaker
um i I will say from my experience working with these people, they are exceptional of what they do, and they have really strong knowledge of the higher education industry as well. Our executive director has been at Tufts for a long, long time.
00:14:41
Speaker
So she has a strong institutional knowledge that she is able to leverage in in this type of work. And she has started this office and it's had some iterations in in and evolutions.
00:14:53
Speaker
And the way it is now, I think it's... it's strong because of those evolutions. But maybe we can use this ah as a moment to pivot into your your specific work. But I mean, you have that background as well. You know, you you said you have an MBA background. um And so I'm going make the bold assumption that you're you're making those collaborative connections. You're doing well. Because I think there's ah for for our listeners out there. i think there's a lesson, there's there's things to to learn from this and how if you don't have a higher ed background per se, like you don't come from an academic discipline, um you haven't been in in decades, you know, i'm the I'm the baby here, I've been in higher ed 25 years, and i'm the I'm the rookie compared to these two grizzled old veterans. So, um you know, how do you
00:15:43
Speaker
I think there's something for people to hear here because I i do and like I own my bias like I hear people from the outside who don't have much time and hire it come and say well hired to do this hired to do that I'm like. You don't know what you're talking about sorry because it's a you're already saying it's a long game.
00:15:59
Speaker
Tufts has been around since 1852. I just looked it up. That's a long game. you know So you just said you the executive director has been there a long time. She's built relationships. So I think there's things to say here about you have to do the work of building relationships, if whether you're coming from in and outside hired or whatever, and you have to give it time. So when we see executives bouncing in and out, presidents, chancellors, whatever,
00:16:24
Speaker
You know, no wonder those institutions are often one often the ones that are struggling in some ways because you've got to have time. You know, this isn't this isn't Silicon Valley where just things pop up and down, go in and out. So from let's segue, and Kelvin and Kevin, if you want to dig into this more, but I want to hear, because we've talked about a lot, and just you and me, Friso, in our own conversations, which is how you came here today, is the kinds of work you're doing in the market research space.
00:16:53
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, and to my earlier point, I'm kind of at the ground level where the structure of our office has really promoted these types of efforts. And so a lot of the research that goes into these types of plans come my way. And so I work together with my my supervisor, but also stakeholders at the schools and and at the programs and institution that we work with.
Tools and Metrics for Market Research
00:17:18
Speaker
So examples are digging into the markets for programs that we're looking to develop or or programs that are struggling and and may need some support or may need a pivot. um and And from that lens, I think I'm able to speak to kind of the the broader strategies that go on because I see everything that goes on in these markets. And I try to dig as deep as I possibly can with the data that we're given. And hopefully that data continues to be there um because there there are limitations to it. And that makes, to me, this work especially interesting.
00:17:53
Speaker
So I want to dig a little bit and into the struggling programs because think a lot of schools and I've seen a lot of stuff recently on on institutions that are like, well, how do you make the decision to cut a program? How do you make a decision to improve? Like, is it worth improving that program?
00:18:08
Speaker
So if you can talk about like the tools you use, one, I'm i'm I think our listeners would be interested in knowing like what software do you use? What companies are you, if you can share it, like where are you getting some of your external data?
00:18:24
Speaker
and But then how did, how did, how did the organization come up with the metrics to determine a failing program? Yeah, I love that question.
00:18:38
Speaker
I think the metrics are, there there are many metrics out there. And many of us, I think, use the same data to devise these types of metrics. And i I'm not here to say that how we do it is perfect or how we do it is the best way. um But we rely on your your classic iPads data. we We use a lot of BLS data, you know jobs and job postings and and try to devise models that are suited that that are suited for the specific programs that we're talking about. you know A degree program is different than a certificate program or non-degree program
00:19:11
Speaker
um from from an academic program perspective, at least, let alone PhDs. But we because we work with these different stakeholders, we are able to bring a lot of different perspectives into the work we do. We work with finance to better understand where there are shortfalls or or where the program is doing well and layering in these these models on what what the market says might be the ceiling, right? there's There's limits as to how well some programs can do based on how much interest there is in the market and based on the levels of competition, how many and and what types of institutions offers offer these types of programs. And we've made some good strides, I think, in defining metrics and creating models that
00:19:58
Speaker
I don't want to say automate, but let's semi-automate some of this work. But it continues to be a, which I think is great, it continues to be a a pretty nuanced, more qualitative approach because you can't just go off the metrics. There's a lot of details that that kind of hide in this aggregated data that can be very relevant to make these types of decisions. And they can also put pitfalls and trap doors in front of you.
00:20:21
Speaker
If you step in through them because you think, oh, it's a very clear signal, you just fall through like, common one is small programs are not thriving. they're They're all underwater. They're all in revenue negative, which is a really stupid perspective. You've got to do the work of figuring out what's the money coming in from this program, how much is being spent for it, and what's the what's the difference there? What's that delta either way? Or is it flat? which is it's One of the things I would love to learn more about, too, because this is a very interesting conversation for me,
00:20:53
Speaker
because I haven't really been a part of these types of conversations about looking at market demand. I've been more, I've worked at institutions where, you know, all of a sudden we're like, hey, let's develop an online program and let's do, let's just go for it, you know, and and and and not really being a part of the bigger conversations around, do we really need ah a fully online program in this? Like, will it be as popular?
00:21:16
Speaker
But I would love to learn more, too, about like, how do you leverage your data to help you diagnose the health of just like gen ed core classes or, you know, how do you decide about how.
00:21:35
Speaker
you know uh courses like in the humanities where maybe there are not as many students using those courses as electives let's say right like maybe you're seeing for example like spanish is you know the enrollments for spanish are great but for german maybe not so much um would love to hear your thoughts on that yeah it's It's complicated. I think the answer to this is very complicated. And and I'll say a lot of the work that our office does is at the program level.
00:22:07
Speaker
But we do have some products that dive deeper into programs and touch on course demand or subject matter demand. So that's when we really look at what goes on at the course level. But Because of the fact that most of what we do is at the program level, I don't think I can speak best to the more nuanced types of of offerings that an institution has.
00:22:30
Speaker
But I will say more and more of our work is focused on kind of the skill attainment and and coursework and non-degree programs and certificate programs. and the further you go, the stray you stray away from degree programs, I think the more limited the data becomes and the more difficult it becomes to make data-driven decisions.
00:22:53
Speaker
ah Yeah, I will say that there's a... I won't say their name, but there is a higher ed data platform that most of us use that ah pulled the plug on trying to create an ah iPads kind of equivalent of that where we could see conferrals and all those things from non-degree, there's just, the data is not there to do it.
00:23:16
Speaker
so can i can Can I make a quick pivot and then we'll come back? I'm just really curious. someone who got an MBA, and then you were told in your MBA program, oh, you should think about careers in higher ed.
00:23:30
Speaker
How did you, like, what did what did what was your learning curve for iPads? like to understand Like, or just the data sets of higher ed, right? Like, just, but just to understand, because I still have, I mean, I've been doing this for 33 years, and i've probably been dealing with iPads data for probably,
00:23:51
Speaker
20 of those years. And I still struggle trying to explain to people, every institution reports CIP codes however they want. There is no governing structure to what you choose. And so when you start to make all these analyses of programs,
00:24:07
Speaker
If you don't really dig in you see these blips of our anomalies of stuff. It's like, oh my gosh, we should be doing that program. And then you just realize that, oh no, that the all those schools just decided in their pharmacy doctorate program that they're not gonna award baccalaureate degrees as students are going through the doctoral program. And a BS in pharmacy really did not grow. It just, so I'm just, that's a whole nother story, but I'm just i'm just really curious, like how did you pick up What tools did you use to learn the higher ed data sets as a non-higher ed person? Yeah, you got a lot of hair left for a space. A lot of people pull their hair out for you soon. Yeah, i'm I'm sure I'll get there if I if i keep going this way. um To your kind of the first question in my learning curve, I think it's
00:24:57
Speaker
it continues to be exponential. There is so much out there that is sometimes very difficult to understand what exactly it is. But I've been fortunate enough here too that a lot of the groundwork for our office's work was late before I got there. And so I've been fortunate enough to have several supervisors that have justowed a lot of information on me and being able to kind of take that and and take it to the next level has been um'm a cool process. And Fritz and I talked about this. i don't know if this is the right time, but I've spent a lot of time developing an aggregated database of what goes on beyond the SIP level.
00:25:34
Speaker
And it speaks to your second point.
Project on Program Aggregation
00:25:37
Speaker
Institutions report their own programs and in in some cases it's somewhat vetted, right? There's there's ways in which you should report that IPEDS provides, but we know there's limitations. And in many cases, institutions do provide their own mapping of the programs to the SIP, but it's no central there's no centralized database where you can guide it out.
00:26:01
Speaker
I've gone out and created that and i me and a partner are doing this. we're We're currently in kind of a soft launch phase, but we are hoping to launch this and have a live website where where institutions, individuals are able to come to and and see what goes on beyond the SIP level and understand which programs it is that play in these SIPs because we do use SIP codes to define markets.
00:26:24
Speaker
And sometimes that gets somewhat trivial. You have SIPs that are very similar in in different, you know, two digit parent SIPs. Or you have the programs moving between them and you think, oh my gosh, demand just collapsed for that. No, they just moved to a lateral SIP.
00:26:41
Speaker
Yeah. make sure You got to make sure you account for that. Otherwise you're like, no, we shouldn't stand up a programmer to build this program up because look at it collapsed. Like, oh, it's actually just moved over and it's just fine. Yep. No, that's, and if I recall correctly, you guys touched on this in another episode as well, that the economics to the econometrics or management to management sciences, those are two fairly large markets that have undergone this exact change fits that you're, that you're talking about. Data analytics is another one. Like, where does that live? it lives all over the place. Yeah. Yep, yep. And then you have DHS STEM. It's like, oh, we need international students. So we're going to change our CIP code specifically. We're not going to accounting anymore. We're going to change it to this CIP because that's what allows international students to come here and then work for X number of years after they get their degree. There's all those nuances, right? And I think that's the piece that just
00:27:31
Speaker
If you just use the data, and I think to go back to Fritz's point, if if we all just use this one data source outside of iPads by itself, but if we were to use this company that many of us use, and you still don't understand those nuances, you don't see you don't understand why those changes are taking place. Again, I could talk about this all day because like i I love iPads. But...
00:27:55
Speaker
There's just so much in it. Right. And I think that's the hard part if you're doing market research or trying to help people understand program potential and no potential is they just go, oh, you know, we we went out and we looked at all these other institutions and they have the same degree. It's like, but but you can't align them to what the market is actually saying. Right. Like that's just one one level. Right.
00:28:21
Speaker
You got to do the hard work of mapping it out and then figuring out based on all those places where they're stuffing degrees and and iPads. You have to ah accumulate all those signals and figure out, is there an opportunity to start, stop, grow?
00:28:38
Speaker
or not. And that's not easy. It's a very, ah it's a, it's a qualitative slog. You can't shove it in Gemini and say, give me nice clean answer.
00:28:49
Speaker
And the people do, they're probably not very happy. or At least their leadership's probably not happy with, they shouldn't be happy. Nope. Yep. No, there's no, you're absolutely right. It's not quite there yet.
00:29:00
Speaker
So I'm sorry. So can you talk a little bit more about this thing that you guys, that you and your colleague are working like,
00:29:09
Speaker
where Where's the breakdown point in in your CIP codes that provides, I guess, more information than if someone were to just look at it themselves?
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah, and and I'll say my my my friend, partner, he has the over decade and in information technology experience. So he's very advanced when it comes to kind of aggregating databases and putting this together in digestible format.
00:29:35
Speaker
um Right now, we are only looking at the supplied side of the equation, where we look at which programs by institutions are are offered in specific six-digit SIP codes. And we have a timeline for including the demand side, but, you know, completions, if you will.
00:29:55
Speaker
um so so I'm sorry. So can you go back? So how are you getting the the front side when what's reported is the back side? Yeah, it's it's similarly reported. I can't tell you exactly where the sources are because then anyone could replicate this. It's it's been a time-consuming effort to get this together, and the sources are very diverse. you know Some institutions publish PDFs that are poorly formatted on their website that show
00:30:26
Speaker
by level in a very complicated manner, which programs they have and to which zip codes they report. In other instances, this data is somewhat publicly available in an aggregated manner, but requires a lot of cleaning.
00:30:43
Speaker
When you put it all together across these different sources, you get a large data set that that does essentially what IPaaS does, but goes a step deeper. It now provides the programs in specific SIP codes.
00:30:56
Speaker
There are limitations. The coverage we have right now is we have the majority of institutions, the majority of completions when we map it. um The institutions are not one-to-one. In some cases, there's systems that report in iPads that have different IDs. The data that we can gather is at the single system level.
00:31:15
Speaker
In other instances, we have them at campus location level, where in iPads they are for a single and reported for a single institution. a... um so it's not a a you know You can't tie this directly to iPads and say, now I have an an eight digit SIP or the program under the six digit SIP. But it is kind of a supplemental data set that I think a lot of us, that is beneficial for a lot of us to answer a more nuanced question that we just discussed as to which programs report where and how well do they perform, especially when we start getting into more interdisciplinary programs. Yeah, I mean, that's the biggest gap, right? Like the biggest gap in iPads is we have no idea what that degree name is that's associated with that CIP code.
00:31:58
Speaker
You know, to Fritz's point earlier of, you know, we're reporting these things all over the place, but I can i can report my Bachelor of Science in in Data Science under 30 and somebody else has reported it in 52 because it's more aligned to a business degree program yeah than it is to the multi-interdisciplinary program that just got created a few years ago.
00:32:18
Speaker
And so, but but they both have a data science program, right? And so once you kind of get down, it is, i mean, it's almost the missing factor in IPEDS in general, I think.
00:32:30
Speaker
Definitely. We don't know the degree name that's associated to that. um I'm going to say this just because I'm going to say it. it's similar to what we're doing in the online space, is trying to get to online degrees, but get the name of the degree so that when institutions start comparing themselves against others, it's not just at that CIP code level. It's using that degree name as well. So that way there is little bit of a balance between the data you're getting.
00:33:01
Speaker
And how you can then use that data. So it's ah I mean, it's that's kudos to you guys. I mean, that's a great, I think it's a great tool. um
00:33:11
Speaker
It's just like every other tool though, right? Like you're you're relying on someone maintaining their data to to to to build your data you know in a way that's, so we did this similarly when I was at when i was at Pearson.
00:33:25
Speaker
It's very similar to Michelle's database.
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, if you want to check it out, I'd i'd love to hear what you guys have to say. it's called The website is called hedatalab.com or hedatalabs.com. It both ties to an application on the back
Launch of Higher Ed Data Lab
00:33:43
Speaker
end.
00:33:43
Speaker
um Like I said, it's it's soft launch. It's public. We have a free version where you can go through the tool and see exactly how it works in a paid version, but it has limited data backing it.
00:33:56
Speaker
um the coverage we have is you know roughly 60% of institutions and 60% of nationwide completions. it It differs a little bit by region based on the type of institutions that are there and and the way in which they do or do not report this data, you know, reporting stronger in public institutions, less strong and in private for-profit institutions.
00:34:17
Speaker
But you can you can find it all there. I'm also happy to announce that we will have a discount code for your listeners, GSDHEDL. We don't have a price point yet, but we will get there shortly. and And the way I think about this is it's by institutions for institutions. Institutions are our our target and, you know,
00:34:38
Speaker
This is something that I've done through my work and I'm not looking to create a consultancy or or a large data aggregator. This is supposed to be available. And that's the way I'm trying to position this.
00:34:53
Speaker
No, that's great. and And I didn't, i had no intentions of spinning it off into what you guys are doing, but i think I mean, I just think it's a, it's folks in higher ed, I think just have to realize and understand that David Price- data sources never always the singular for it for anything, and I think sometimes that's what we get trapped into and that was that's really kind of where i was going when I asked you about strategic planning and stuff like that. David Price- And in in the metrics that you use, because I think we just get trapped into well, this is how we measure things well.
00:35:27
Speaker
That's how we measured it 10 years ago. That doesn't necessarily mean that's the right measurement today or the tools haven't changed or thing. I mean, there's all like, again, the STEM, I think is a big change to CIP that I don't think a lot of, lot, unless you're in it every day, i don't think, you know, those things are changing, right? Like, I don't think you realize that someone's not reporting in accounting anymore. They flipped it to something else because that's how international students can stay here.
00:35:51
Speaker
yeah So, but no, kudos to you guys. That's great. Um, i'm gonna say whole I was a whole tangent on a whole totally different topic. I'm going to do a little roundtable, especially Kevin and Friso.
00:36:07
Speaker
Yes or no, IPEDS should require, if you if an institution accepts Title four federal student loan funds, the institution should report enrollments by program.
00:36:19
Speaker
Not just completions, but enrollments per academic year. Oh, yeah. But do you think you think it's too, should I mean, I know for profits would lose their minds, but I think, do you think there'd be pushback? Because now you're giving away like, oh my gosh, you know how many we're enrolling and you know if we're growing or, but it gives a visibility to the market that is, we're we're all trying to infer this from the data we have.
00:36:41
Speaker
is I mean, I have an opinion, but I'll let Frizzo go first. Yeah, I'm curious. i'm I'm sure it's going to align somewhat. um Yes is the short answer. and And I do think there will be pushback in part what Kevin said earlier.
00:36:58
Speaker
As much as one may not want to talk about higher education institutions being a business, they are. There's there's a lot of money that goes around in in higher ed and a lot of people that rely on that money to keep going the way it is. And when the data comes public, just like it is for a for-profit company,
00:37:14
Speaker
it becomes more difficult to to separate yourself from the others and and be able to to justify what's going on, I think, in a lot of ways. But yes, it it should be it should be available.
00:37:27
Speaker
it's A lot of it is paid for by the government that provides aid in many instances. Yeah, I agree that it should be available. I think the i think the reason it probably we've never really it doesn't get pushed as much as it should get pushed, is the concern that someone's going to use it and they're going to use an enrollment data with their conferral data in that same thing and start making up their retention rates or their completion rates or something like that. Like, I think there's this concern of the data being used in the wrong way.
00:38:01
Speaker
And then how deep do you go? So then it becomes you know a burden of reporting. then But then, so to get too technical probably, what do you do with your undeclared majors?
00:38:13
Speaker
They typically don't fall into a CIP code. They could, but where are you reporting them? How do you report them? Do you want demographics on all of those enrollments? So that opens up a whole nother layer of race, ethnicity, and then who's goingnna start pointing and going, you're too white, you're too black, you're too brown.
00:38:34
Speaker
Like, I think there just opens up a lot of other. Absolutely. Unintentionally. I think if, if, if governments, whether state, local or federal want an efficient use of taxpayer dollars to support education, which those dollars should support student loans to have a very visible marketplace where you can see like this program, these, these institutions are doing this program.
00:39:03
Speaker
These are competitors and they are, wow, this is, this is going well. Like we can, we can put money into this program and we're not going we're not really going to put ourselves over a cliff. but ah Or like, wow, this you know there's fewer people getting history majors. We want to be cautious because otherwise institutions make bad bets in the dark. And then what happens? Students don't finish. They don't service to student loans. They go into fall. like it's just To me, it those are important questions to solve, but we have to have a visible marketplace so that ins Institutions have to be more efficient. like these
00:39:36
Speaker
we're getting out People want to know enrollments because we have to, you know not every like I say this like every episode, we can't just say, hey, we're a university and everyone's going to enroll because there's like huge you know enrollment or huge population growth. We have to be really subtle and efficient.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah. i mean if i you know If I go back to when I was doing data reporting for Florida and stuff, i mean we reported a lot of disaggregated data to the state. but it never was reported. Like it was only to the state. so it was only the DOE.
00:40:05
Speaker
Aggregated data was always rolled up. So our enrollment numbers were always out there. You always saw it, but we reported all of our stuff at the disaggregated level. But you mean it so much of a difference. if you're If you're reporting conferrals by program, why not report enrollments by program? is was there's What's the difference?
00:40:21
Speaker
Not because, you know what i mean? Just the front end versus back end. It is. I mean, yeah National Center for Education Statistics utilizes higher ed input on what they're going to do and not do. I mean, do you know how many years it took to change them that the the the change in in race and ethnicity?
00:40:43
Speaker
Like that was a rollout in 2007. Institutions had until so three years. to get that reporting. And that became a reporting burdensome concept. like Everything is always this it just the admissions thing now, reporting admissions, now goes through the whole, is this an additional burdensome piece? i think Yeah, but that's more of now I'll see some more controversial. that There's more of an agenda there than a policy. Right, but but that's what drives a lot of that. I mean, so that's that's where you're trying to balance. Like there's 100%, I agree with you all day long.
00:41:18
Speaker
I'm not saying it's a legitimate agenda. I agree with you that we should report it. But I think there's this, we're not going report anything until we're asked to report it or told that we have to report it. You're saying I need to get in there and and do it? Get in there, Fritz. Advocate.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think you should try to figure out how to get with the National Center for Education Statistics and start making agenda items for things that are- I'm to my powder dry on that one. if if Things that are important to hire.
00:41:44
Speaker
I don't think a lot of iPads data all the time is information that's important to higher ed. I think it was important to somebody who decided that we need we're going to start doing this, right?
00:42:00
Speaker
Now, the you know, the scorecard, all those types of things. Like, I don't know how you use scorecard data and there's no enrollment, right? Like, what's the, like, can you only use, I mean, so we could have the whole debate on first time in college student. Why is that the only retention number we use? Why is it only FTIC? What about all the people who...
00:42:17
Speaker
you know, started somewhere and they came back. We can't count them in our graduation rates. Like, why is it only this one subset, which hinders other institutions that are not enrolling 18 year olds right out of high school because they're, you know, and then everybody's like, oh my God, the retention numbers are 36. Well, because they had 50 people that were in FTIC, right? Like it's not. Out of a huge population yeah of the completers or whatever. ye Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:43
Speaker
So anyway, that's... There you go, Friso. You asked. Oh, I mean, I'm i'm here for it.
00:42:52
Speaker
Kelvin, you're too chatty.
00:42:55
Speaker
No, i'm I'm, again, I'm just enjoying, you know, this conversation. These are things that around the use of the data that almost, they kind of remind me of some things that I also want to do too. Like, and maybe Friso,
00:43:11
Speaker
Is there any additional data that you use around the use of non-degree credentials? I bring it up as a topic because it's given given my work with the National Association of Higher Ed Systems, I'm just trying to just get baseline data around the use of systems that have community colleges and universities leveraging um Coursera, you know, basically micro-credentials on the Coursera platform. And what we're trying to do is marry data available from Coursera and then trying to find a way to fold in demographic data for those learners just to find out, like, who's enrolled in a Google Cert in data analytics or who is pursuing a singular course in AI essentials versus prompting essentials.
00:44:02
Speaker
because it's data that's not really required by anyone, right? um So would love to just hear your thoughts about like, um to what it, you know,
00:44:13
Speaker
How are you collecting data around, again, certificates or or or things that are maybe not necessarily offered by the institution, but by a third party like a Coursera or from you know one of the credential providers like PMI around project management, you know other professional certs, maybe from IT organizations, that type of thing.
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like you are much further in this research than than I have been at least. and And a lot of work our office does it is, like I said, at the degree program level, mostly graduate, then we go in undergraduate and sometimes go into the the non-degree or or certificate credential way. And we have done similar work trying to create a model that pulls data from Coursera, EDX, Udemy,
00:45:07
Speaker
and try to better understand where the demand is, how that demand is evolving. But it's imperfect. And like we have touched on a couple of times now, the details are important.
00:45:20
Speaker
And when you can't get to them, you can make some skewed, deliver some skewed insights that may lead to decisions that are not the correct ones. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Because the data, it's like the way I describe it, and and both you and Kevin, for example, are more data wonks than I am, but it's like trying to create create like a puzzle, right? Like you have all these pieces, but they're not in the
Challenges with Integrating Non-Degree Credentials
00:45:47
Speaker
set.
00:45:47
Speaker
So you have to like borrow pieces from, like, I feel like, you know, there's some SIS data that of course institutions already have access to, but guess what? The SIS does not connect with a an outside platform like Coursera because it's like a learning management system like Blackboard and Moodle but it's not because you can bring in Coursera content into an LMS but without there being a way to tag let's say for example course sections where Coursera content is being consumed by the learner
00:46:21
Speaker
um that That makes it just hard to then for tracking purposes, right? And then if you do this work, you know, if people are accessing um micro-credential content on their own co-curricularly outside of a course, then it's even worse, right? Because now you're like, okay, what is the learner doing?
00:46:39
Speaker
um you know, outside of the course that might actually impact, you know, their interest in continuing on at Tufts or another school.
00:46:49
Speaker
Like, you know, so I feel like it's still the wild, wild west, but I think there's lots of opportunities for us to drill down and have a sense of how students are trying to leverage existing courses, programs with additional experiences to hopefully be better prepared for the evolving world of work.
00:47:08
Speaker
So. Yeah, absolutely.
00:47:13
Speaker
So, Friso, I'd be interested, where where do you where do you see higher ed data going, especially with AI? like where How do you see your office doing the best that it can in the next five years?
00:47:34
Speaker
That's a good question. i I think AI is not quite there yet to allow us to to do its own thing on this type of data. I've i've tried to create some um structures where it can read the data that we use and try to have it deliver insights that we deliver.
00:47:55
Speaker
And it just doesn't do a good enough job. Sometimes it you know it makes up statistics that aren't there or it pulls statistics from the wrong data set. I do envision, now've I've seen significant progress in AI in the last year alone.
00:48:11
Speaker
I envision that some of those will be resolved, but I'm cautiously optimistic. I think there are pitfalls that we have to be very mindful of. um That said, there's people much brighter than me that can do a much better job at this type of work that I think can create really powerful systems that can deliver a lot of really good insights into um some of these markets, if you will.
00:48:39
Speaker
But given given the limitations that we just touched on, it just requires a significant amount of human input to make the insights valuable. and And I think that will still be the case in five years, as much of it is automatable.
00:48:57
Speaker
Yeah, what I'm finding with AI right now is, can't remember if we talked about this the other day, Frizo, but i you know like i'll I'll pull a list of institutions that are competitors or peers or whatever, like the whole lot and say, look, here's the links to all their Program pages that are curricular pages in a program site.
00:49:15
Speaker
Tell me what the tell me the the different categories of programs there are applied, theoretical, industry, whatever, and group them all by those those those clusters you find, because that helps us figure out, oh, like most programs are applied there. know, it's an applied program.
00:49:34
Speaker
And we're theoretical. Like, should we reexamine that? And not to get the answer, like you should be applied, but to least help drive further questions and pass along insights. um Yeah, it's pretty good at doing that, but I still go through and check its math to make sure it didn't hallucinate its way. It's something else, but I'm very specific. Here's the link to the page. I don't want to read 70 pages.
00:49:55
Speaker
You go read them all and tell me what the perspective is. So I feel like it needs a lot of, it needs expertise, an expert to structure what it, It does, and it comes back with very, ah not subtle and not low stakes, but answers that are not ah so, they're not very in depth.
AI's Role in Higher Education Data Analysis
00:50:17
Speaker
It's just an amplifier. Yep. No, I think that's on point. And it's it's been really interesting to talk with you, Fritz, and you, Kevin and Kelvin, too. There's a lot of work that we all do in our own ways that aligns very well, right? we We do the same type of benchmarking. We look at other institutions that are similar to us and we see what they offer.
00:50:37
Speaker
um it's It's a timely process in some instances and requires experience to do it well. And, you know, I might not be there. Hopefully in in a couple of years, I will be there to do this really efficiently.
00:50:49
Speaker
And maybe AI can help us do that. But but you're right, it's not it's not there yet. Yeah, but then you have to wrangle what's really a peer, what's a competitor, right? Like those conversations with institutions to, because what, even if you asked AI,
00:51:06
Speaker
based on our programs, based on what we look like, based on who we are. Tell me who in this world of of all higher ed institutions, who are our peers? And it's gonna come back with a list. You go ask the department chairs or faculty, who are your peers? They're gonna have a list, right? Like that's the other part too. I think that's what that's what I like about the data, you know, when in in having data conversations and having data stories with folks is,
00:51:34
Speaker
is to share, like, there's other possibilities of people who are competing with you or a peer in this space. And it's not necessarily who we would compare ourselves to or use as a peer for this particular reason.
00:51:47
Speaker
But here's how we need to do it for this particular, like, and I think that's one thing higher ed, has a hard time wrapping their heads around is that we can have different peers for different things.
00:51:59
Speaker
We don't have to be the, it doesn't have to be the same group for everything that we do because then you miss out on stuff, right? Like. You're not looking at it from a program by program lens. And I think, yeah, I think sometimes you have to look at it by program, but I think a lot of times though,
00:52:15
Speaker
people will just come back and go, well, that's not our peer set. That's not who that's not, it's like, okay. But if they don't have a vet program, why do you want, why is that a peer group for you? Right. Right. Like, or they're not a, they're not land grant institution or they're not like, and I think sometimes we just get wrapped into choosing what we've, it kind goes back to the strategic plan, right? Like you're building KPIs, you're doing all this stuff.
00:52:39
Speaker
How are you comparing that you're that you're achieving your goals and what are you using to say here's where we should be is different than, to Fritz's point, what who should you compare yourself if you're an MBA program, right? Those are different.
00:52:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think you just touched on a point that requires a whole other conversation. It's coincidental. I've done a lot of work on on peer analyses in the last few months. it's It's fascinating.
00:53:07
Speaker
there It's difficult to establish peers for programs alone or even schools and then try to compare them across the schools and create a list for the institution at a whole. everyone is All institutions are very, very different in many, many regards.
00:53:21
Speaker
But here's the thing I think is interesting is that where we are right now with the, if if I'm a prospective student learner for any program,
00:53:32
Speaker
how I find opportunity options to do that kind of program is very different than it was, let's let's go back to the early 2000s, say, entirely different. So how we determine who our peer was then is very different now. Like even at a program level, where our MBA is comparable to these and MBAs,
00:53:54
Speaker
I mean, now it's I'm not going to say it doesn't matter, but it's whoever shows up next to you in whatever channels students or people are searching for programs could be tick tock, Google, whatever, because they don't they care about reputation, but they don't.
00:54:09
Speaker
those other kind of factors like, well, they have this kind of research output or, you know, like some people, they don't care. They were like, who's closest to me? Who's affordable? It's a, you know, a compact timeframe. Oh, it's a two year part-time program for masters instead of four year full-time or something. You know, I, it's not that the customer's always right in that, but do you have, you know, for you I tell people program with directors, you have to look at it through a prospective learner's eyes.
00:54:37
Speaker
and then figure out how to position yourself for those individuals. Because our i'm I'm not gonna say the program, I'm examining program for one of our campuses where by all accounts, there's a mediocre program that leads the pack for conferrals, it's a master's program. Last year, this institution conferred 500 people. the next The next person, the next institution list, 50. So if it's a mediocre program, why are they conferring 500 people? There's a cost factor. There's a speed factor. There's an ah application, you know, requirements, admission requirements, et cetera. But, you know, yeah, maybe maybe they suck, but why are they so far ahead of everyone by an order of magnitude? Yeah, if there's other schools that do that, like if you...
00:55:23
Speaker
There's, what's what's the program? It's either Southern New Hampshire or Western Governors has an education program that in a CIP code with conferrals that like nobody else has.
00:55:38
Speaker
And they have like 300 and some, like last year was like 300 and some conferrals. like what it like how did people find it why why were they attracted to it and why does no other institution offer that cip code with that name right like it's just i think sometimes i think there's a lot of playing games with your zip codes and i don't think necessarily they always mean one degree programming which I think really goes to Frizzo's database, right? Yeah, was just going to say, higher ed data lab. Is it really, is there only one program that's actually going into that CIP code or is it 17 programs that are going into to make it look like it's a huge program? Yeah. Have you ever tried to analyze like an interdisciplinary program and a bunch of other programs? And it's like, you know, Native American studies plus some other kind of studies plus something totally unrelated, cultural, you know, like...
00:56:38
Speaker
cultural resource management, it's like all these unrelated things are stuffed in this one zip code. So how am I supposed to determine whether there's a red, green, or yellow light for this kind of program. It's brutal.
00:56:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean mean, I think, honestly, I think the CIP code designation of making a multidisciplinary degree or an interdisciplinary degree, I think i think that messed a lot of stuff up.
00:57:00
Speaker
I don't think that should have, to me, I'm a purist when it comes to CIP. Like, they should really be aligned to what degrees are and not, 9999s should go away. Like, nobody should be able to say it's an other, right? Like, pick a place. Right?
00:57:14
Speaker
Because that's all we do is we're just like, oh, we don't want to pick one. just going to throw it somewhere else. And I think a lot of schools throw it in 9999. So no one knows what degrees are offered and and what they're awarding. I think they i mean i there's ways to game the system.
00:57:32
Speaker
I
00:57:36
Speaker
i would say probably you know in ah in a... unintentional way. Yeah, I don't think it, to me, I don't think, no whats they're going I don't want people to know. It's more of just, I'm exasperated. got to move along. Let's just put this somewhere. Yeah. you know I don't want to take the time to figure out where it aligns. Or to advocate for a new, a new six digit zip code for a program. Or,
00:57:58
Speaker
Or to your point, oh, it's all it's it's one of these three. And I don't want to pick one because that's going to change things. Or then the DHS with STEM, oh we're definitely going to pick that one because we want international students to be able to stay here long. and it's just like, yeah.
00:58:12
Speaker
so Yeah, what's funny, too, and the new SIPS, to your point, Fritz, I think that's like every decade they put some new SIPS on there. So yeah you know the way things are progressing, everything is higher pace. you know In 10 years, maybe we'll see a new SIPS code for specialized AI programs or whatnot.
00:58:28
Speaker
meanwhile that Meanwhile, that's like it's gone through four cycles and change and there's been paradigmatic changes yet in 10 years we'll get one that maybe approximates what it might have been. Yeah.
00:58:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost like the NCS or IPED should prescribe which zip code an institution uses based on the curriculum curriculum because that's a whole nother thing. An institution can use any program name they want really.
00:58:55
Speaker
But the curriculum underneath really, I think, defines what discipline aligns with. And that's know even a step further and than we can provide now. Yeah, I mean, that's I mean, that is what it's supposed to do. I think there's just too much latitude and there's no checks and balance. Right. Like there's no one saying it's not your you submitted all this stuff and there's it's not right what you submitted. Yeah.
00:59:17
Speaker
yeah There something i was go to say on top of that, too, based on what Ritz was saying it with all the other numbers. But
00:59:28
Speaker
Frisa, one of the other things we like to ask people is um not just what do you do, but what do you like to do?
Friso's Personal Life and Hobbies
00:59:35
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i just welcomed a second, well, six months ago, a boy into this world. So I have two young kids.
00:59:43
Speaker
Oh, congrats. Thank you, thank you. It's been a blessing. It's been a lot of fun. Prior to that, I spent a lot of my free time doing fun things, if you will, like outdoor activities. i did a lot of mountain biking, skiing, a lot of hiking.
00:59:57
Speaker
Did you in Western Massachusetts? Yeah, Worcester Mass, kind of central. About an hour and a half outside of Boston. oh Worcester, not Western. Okay, gotcha, okay. Worcester, yeah. Worcester. I said Worchester when I first moved here. I blame it on the language. Yeah, people are probably like, where ye yeah Yeah. um So now that time is spent enjoying life with my kids, doing as many of the same things as possible. We we introduced our oldest to the ski slopes two weeks ago. um So yeah, they're hoping hoping to continue that.
01:00:27
Speaker
So do you make it back to the Netherlands? Not as often as I want to. Probably average once a year or so, probably less actually with COVID. I try to.
01:00:38
Speaker
My family, my whole family is there. My friends, a lot of friends are there. Cool place. so So why did you not continue law? Oh, tough question. Loaded question. Uh, it is law the same in the Netherlands as it is like, would would that be the same or we'll just say we got, him we got a private message from your father-in-law wanting to know this. Yeah, um that's funny. if the the education model The educational models and in the kind in the two countries are just very different.
01:01:13
Speaker
um So in the Netherlands, I chose kind of my track in high school and had these options to study. but But your undergraduate degree in most cases, not liberal arts, you you have a specific discipline that you follow. So when you get a three years three-year undergraduate degree in the Netherlands, you tend to be very specialized already. So when I say law school, that's a three-year.
01:01:34
Speaker
heavy law focused curriculum that allows you to to get your specialization degree and and actually practice law within five years. So you don't have to do bachelor's plus a JD like we do here. It's not seven to eight years in the Netherlands. It's a three year shot.
01:01:52
Speaker
Yep. Yeah. And, you know, I think like many 18, 19 year olds, I wasn't actually sure what I wanted to do. So I got into law school. I liked some courses. I definitely didn't like others. There was a lot of reading that time in my life. I wasn't ready to do that reading well enough to continue the program. So I sought other opportunities, I guess.
01:02:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. No, and I didn't i didn't want apologize for like putting you on the because it is
Career Shift from Law to Higher Education
01:02:21
Speaker
interesting. Right. like So I lived in Germany when I was young. um And just the the the way the education system is different. And you're kind of very early on, you're kind of like trapped in certain, that's why I was just like, just was it chosen for you? Did you choose it? Was it just kind of like, oh, you know, I don't want to do agriculture. I don't want to do medical. I don't want to this. Oh, law's the next, like you had five buckets to choose from. And so, and then it was like, no, this really isn't, you know, as a 17, 18 year old, what I want to do.
01:02:52
Speaker
Yeah, I i mean, i just didn't know enough. I didn't do enough research. I wasn't ready to do that. I was still kind of a free spirit in that regard. Wasn't ready to pursue education the way I have later on. And I will say, like I said, early on, I've made a 180. I really like what I do now. And i I own my background. I wasn't the best student in high school, but think I'm a very good student, have been a very good student thereafter. And and like to say, I continue to seek out learning opportunities and and grow as much as I can.
01:03:20
Speaker
So do you see yourself getting a doctorate since you're in higher ed? Good question. my My wife just got her Edd. I've seen the work it's taken her yeah with two young kids at home. i am definitely not ready to to pursue that. I have thought about it.
01:03:38
Speaker
So perhaps in a decade from now, I can continue that conversation. We're a biased audience though, the three of us. But I will say, yeah, I finished mine when our our son, who's our youngest, who turns 13 today, by the way, happy birthday, Leo. Congratulations.
01:03:56
Speaker
I finished mine, he was born and I was doing final edits and submission. And I, you know, so he was born in January. I walked across the stadium, the, state the, the, you know, the stage in May, but yeah, it's hard with young kids, but actually in some ways it keeps you focused. Cause you're like, yeah take care of humans, do my work, do my doctor work. You know, if, if you can close the valves to all sorts of other things, you can, you know, kind of go into a tunnel.
01:04:25
Speaker
But yeah, it's no it's not an easy lift. A lot of respect for the people doing it. I did i i did my coursework before my we had kids. So at least got that part out of the way. i was just trying to dissertate while we had small ones.
01:04:39
Speaker
The easy part. Yeah. I still have dreams like, oh my god, I didn't go to that class. I forgot to go and now there's a final. I'm going fail. Like once ah once every couple months, I have a a grad school nightmare.
01:04:50
Speaker
took
01:04:53
Speaker
That's not healthy. What? said that's not healthy. Well, it's not every night. It's like said, it's once a year, twice a year, three maybe.
01:05:05
Speaker
Well, if we're at a natural stopping point, Frizo, it's been so great to talk to you.
Conclusion and Farewell
01:05:12
Speaker
We will pass on your gracious discount code to our listeners. and i'll put I'll make sure to put it in the description for this episode and also when we when we tell everyone on LinkedIn that our episode has come out. So that's very that's very gracious of you. Thank you.
01:05:30
Speaker
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Appreciate meeting you guys and and talking through Life and Higher Ed. Yeah, we appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, thank you again. Take care.