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GSD Episode 5: Our First Guest, Dr. Michael Edmondson
21 Plays29 days ago
For Episode 5, Kevin, Kelvin, and Fritz welcome their first guest, Dr. Michael Edmondson, Associate Provost for Continued Learning at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. Michael walks us through his path from first generation undergraduate student to private sector market research to leading non-degree credential initiatives at NJIT. And there's a healthy dose of laughter along the way!
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guest
00:00:02
Speaker
So welcome everyone. This is our fifth podcast of getting stuff done in higher education. My name is Kevin Schreiner and I am joined by our co-host
00:00:22
Speaker
welcome everyone this is our fifth podcast of getting stuff done in higher education my name is kevin schrainner and i am joined by our co-host Fritz and Kelvin, which all of you have had an opportunity to to hear and understand where they are in getting um stuff done in higher ed in our journey here today.
00:00:41
Speaker
We are um have the opportunity today to speak with Michael Edmondson, who is the Associate Provost for Continuing Learning at New Jersey Institute of Technology.
00:00:52
Speaker
um And so we're going to hear a little bit about how Michael has been um getting stuff done, not only in New Jersey, but in his higher education career. So welcome,
Michael's Background and Education
00:01:02
Speaker
Michael. It's great to have you here.
00:01:03
Speaker
Thank you so much. Thank you, Kevin Fritz and Kelvin. Really, i'm honored to be the first official guest. I did listen to a few of the prior podcasts, and I just love the title. As soon as I saw it, I was like, yes, someone is focused on getting stuff done. Let's do it.
00:01:20
Speaker
Yeah, great. So, Michael, before we kind of jump into your work at New Jersey, why don't you share with our listeners um how you got into higher ed and really kind of Did higher ed choose you or did you choose higher ed? and I like that. Yeah, it's a great question. So I've always positioned myself as having a non-traditional career path. So I'll just explain it and feel free to interrupt at any time.
00:01:46
Speaker
If you can't tell there's an accent, well, it's a Philadelphia accent. I grew up in Southwest Philly. Some people say they grew up in Philly, but they lived in the suburbs. And i'm like, no, I grew up in Southwest Philly and went to West Catholic High School for boys. And then I applied to one college. Now, this is I don't know if I'm probably the oldest person on this call.
00:02:07
Speaker
So this is 100 years ago. I applied to one college and I got into that one college, Cabrini College. And i was the first I'm a first gen. Like no one in my family had gone gone to college. And my parents were so supportive of me at Cabrini.
00:02:21
Speaker
mean, talking about a fish out of water, I had no idea like what college was, but I had good support system at high school. And they said, no, you have to go. i'm like, okay, I'll go. Wow. Yeah. And really had no idea like what's what's college. Like, I don't know. I mean, like,
00:02:37
Speaker
but if you don't If you don't have a family history of college, right? Like, what is it? I don't know, someplace you go and maybe learn. We could spend a whole hour plus just talking about this thing, which is- 100%. Oh, yeah. It's so interesting. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Oh, yeah. No, no. It's okay. Please.
00:02:54
Speaker
I learned so much, so much. Anyway, Cabrini College is now closed, of course, because it's one of the many schools that and that you can do a whole hour on school closings. Don't get me started.
00:03:06
Speaker
But so I met, ah you know, sorry, we only have an hour. this this This takes, you'll learn quickly just interrupt me because I could talk forever. I was not always this verbose. I mean, my God, when I was 18, I was scared to death of my own shadow.
00:03:21
Speaker
But I met a young woman in the library there back in, oh my 40 years 1986. forty years ago nineteen eighty six I always tell the story that she was bothering me, but of course, no one believes that if they knew both of us.
00:03:35
Speaker
And we eventually got married and have two beautiful adult children now. And actually, I became a pop-pop January 3rd of this year. So yeah, it's been an amazing one. Sorry, Michael. So that's the other thing that Michael and I share in common.
00:03:47
Speaker
So we both, eat so I'm also referred to as a pop-pop from my first
Career Transition and Teaching Experiences
00:03:52
Speaker
grandson. And so was interesting. We were both at a conference presenting and he said he was a pop-pop. like, I'm also a pop pop.
00:03:58
Speaker
That's right. That's right. That's right. Another. one his be yeah I'm actually expecting another grand. Oh, congratulations. No, it's a grand. It'll be a grandson. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. It'll be a pop pop in April again.
00:04:11
Speaker
That's amazing. Congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. yeah So, um so I, I don't know anything about anything about colleges. And so there's had to fill out like a form. Everything was paperback then in the eighty s And they're like, pick a major. i'm like, well, don't even know what's a major.
00:04:27
Speaker
I don't know. More importantly, what are the ramifications of choosing a major? I have no idea. I chose accounting. It was the first one on the list. I don't know. I took an accounting course.
00:04:39
Speaker
I'm like, well, this is not me. ah to And luckily, I was also in a history course at the time and with this instructor, Professor Jolly and Pitt Gerard, and just fell in love with history the way he taught it. He was a Vietnam vet and a Ph.D. from Maryland, studied under Wayne Cole, this famous diplomatics historian.
00:04:57
Speaker
And I just fell in love with history. I'm like, OK, I'll change my major to history, not knowing what I was going to do at all. So fast forward, i graduate Cabrini and I'm like, well, i don't want work. So I went to Villanova for my master's degree and got a master's in history.
00:05:12
Speaker
And Jolly and was like, you've got to go and get your PhD. I'm like, oh my God. I mean, I'm i'm not. I'm a first gentleman from Southwest Philly. I'm not PhD worthy.
00:05:25
Speaker
And my good friend, Lowell Gustafson at Villanova was the chair of the poli-sci department. He was on my master's committee, he's still a good friend today. And he said, no, you really should go.
00:05:37
Speaker
I'm like, oh, I'm okay. So Lori and I had gotten married. And of course, everyone said it takes forever to have a child.
Corporate Sector Experience
00:05:46
Speaker
Well, it didn't for us.
00:05:48
Speaker
So my first semester at Temple for the PhD, Amanda was born. So like I and it was i I worked right after Villanova, I worked at a I taught social studies from fifth through eighth grade at an elementary school in Camden at like You know, one of the poor cities in New Jersey.
00:06:08
Speaker
And so I learned a whole lot about teaching fifth through eighth grade in Camden, and it really was a humbling in experience. And then I started the Ph.D. program where I taught for a few years in high school and then Jolly and hired me to teach history at Cabrini College.
00:06:22
Speaker
So I always credit those first few years of teaching K through 12 as like, I think every college professor should teach K through 12. Like that's when you really learn classroom management and you really learn what it means to teach, not just to be the sage on the stage and pontificate. Right.
00:06:38
Speaker
So I felt it really helped me develop as a professional. So then was like, okay, so I'm teaching, teaching, teaching, getting the PhD.
00:06:49
Speaker
My specialty was in the 1920s, US-Mexican diplomatic relations. And I graduate with my PhD in history. It's like uber proud. Everyone is so proud. I can't believe it.
00:06:59
Speaker
My good friend, ah Peter Bramman, who also has a PhD in history from Temple, who's his military, mine's diplomatic, was working at a pharmaceutical marketing research firm that only hired PhDs in social sciences.
00:07:12
Speaker
And he's like, hey, we have a job. You should come and do this job. like, I don't even know what you do. So I talked to my wife and she said, you're teaching, you're a good teacher, but you have a really good business mind. I think you should go for it And I'm like, okay.
00:07:30
Speaker
So I applied and got the job and here I am, I'm traveling the world interviewing physicians and healthcare care professionals about how they treat conditions. And I'm working with fortune 100 pharmaceutical brand teams.
00:07:43
Speaker
So I got a question. Yeah, go ahead. So was this a deflection of the path you were going to go? I mean, were you like, i'mnna I'm going I'm going to apply for tenure track jobs. i'm I'm doing, I'm doing it. Or is this, were you at the nearing the end of your PhD program? i'm Like, Oh crap, what do I do next?
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, so I was at the end of the PhD program. ah could have stayed at Cabrini, Fritz. But then I'm like, you know, I don't want to look back at the end of my life. Like I do. I've written a lot of books and do a lot of self reflection. And as I don't want ever want to look at the back of my life at the back of when I'm at my deathbed and look back and say, i wish I did.
00:08:20
Speaker
And so like i know the five regrets of the dying, like in all the research is overwhelmingly clear what those five regrets are. So when I had the opportunity to leave teaching and go into this for profit sector, I'm like, oh, no, this is an inflection point in my life. I have to understand what this moment in time is.
00:08:41
Speaker
And I'm going to take it. so Well, knowing I don't know what the next steps are. Right. Yeah. um But I'm like, no, I trust myself. I just went through a Ph.D. program.
00:08:52
Speaker
I have a Ph.D. in history. I can pretty much this is me talking to me now as a first gen coming from lower lower, lower, lower, you know, middle class in Southwest Philly growing up in a row home.
00:09:06
Speaker
I can pretty much do anything now. I have a Ph.D. in history like my God. Like, not that I'm unstoppable, but I feel really confident. And so I took it it was a leap of faith in myself, not knowing like what, the you know, where would end up.
00:09:21
Speaker
And it was I still look back very fondly on those years. And obviously I fell back into higher ed. That's part of this journey. But I always said I don't need an MBA because I learned it on the street.
00:09:35
Speaker
um I'm working with you name a top tier pharmaceutical brand. I'm working with their brand team. I'm walking in and presenting to brands that are worth billions of dollars. Little old me.
00:09:47
Speaker
I'm like, oh, I got this. So it gave me a sense of confidence that I don't think if I had stayed in higher ed ever would have. Oh, that's interesting.
00:09:57
Speaker
Go ahead, can I? Yeah, was just going to say, I mean, if you would have stayed in higher ed, was was your track to be, so you're teaching i mean you're teaching were you you were teaching middle school when you were doing? did middle school for a year, high school, and then I was at Cabrini College teaching.
00:10:13
Speaker
OK, so you're an instructor Cabrini. So I'm an instructor. And they're like, hey, do you want to stick around?
Consulting and Career Readiness Programs
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know if I, the initial plan, right? But I'm in college at my undergraduate at Cabrini.
00:10:26
Speaker
And I'm talking to Jolly and Jim had keys, chair of the policy side department there. And I'm like, well, I guess I could do what you did, like go the tenured route, right, and then eventually become the department chair and so forth.
00:10:39
Speaker
But see, that's all I knew, right? Like, that's why I'm not a big fan of pathways. We can spend a whole hour just on pathways. Because I'm like, well, there's got to be more to life than just that one path.
00:10:52
Speaker
The problem is, how do you figure it out? So it's interesting to me is that you went to college. You did your undergrad. You finished. You graduated in the late 80s. 88. 88. Yeah. OK.
00:11:03
Speaker
And you were a history major. Yeah. So you graduated in 88. You're 10 years older me. I graduated in 98. OK. Thanks for that. viewers but Happy 60th birthday coming up. with Just kidding. um But to me, you're you're graduating high school or graduating high school and and oh sorry, graduating college at a history degree at time when a lot of people still got these more generalist degrees, history, English lit.
00:11:31
Speaker
You name it. there was It wasn't as much of a pathway mindset to undergraduate degrees. And then people often went off. And I so i mean, I know people, tons of people, you know English lit majors who went off into marketing, all these things. they yeah They went in these different directions into the business and private sector world. They didn't just slot into the profession with the name associated with their degree, like history degree equals history path.
00:11:55
Speaker
English lit means you're going to be a book editor or whatever. So you were graduating high school. college at a time when that was still more than way more than normal than it is now. And at a time you finished your doctorate in 99, it looks like.
00:12:08
Speaker
Yep. Yep. And, you know, the junctification was just starting, but i'm interested. mentioned the person you said, someone else who had a PhD who said, we only hire PhDs in social sciences and degrees.
00:12:22
Speaker
I'm interested in that person. I mean, not that we want to go down the rabbit hole, but, and that our company, because that says to me, even the late nineties, um When, you know, every, you don't have a computer science degree, how are you go to work in the web world? you' Right, right. Yeah.
00:12:37
Speaker
So to me, it says a lot of good things about the company you work for, the person who said, ah, I see in you, because I feel like there's still, there's still very much this tension between those things of,
00:12:48
Speaker
you need a data analytics degree versus you need to have that knowledge, but you need a whole corpus of expertise around that then do that well. So it's really interesting stuff and sorry to No, no, no, no.
00:13:02
Speaker
Well, I had said, I don't know anything about pharmaceuticals. They're like, you have a skill set. That's what we want is your advanced skill set. And i'm like, oh, okay. Yeah, I can learn pharmaceuticals. And then became like a semi expert on how generics are made because I can read and analyze and tell a story. That's what the historians do. So I was working with a PhD in economics, a PhD in psych, a PhD in social.
00:13:24
Speaker
It was amazing. And so we traveled the world interviewing healthcare professionals gathering data and telling the story to brand teams. ah Who knew that even existed? I didn't.
00:13:36
Speaker
No one in my family even understood what I did. Yeah. You know, and which is okay, which is okay. So long story short, so I do that for a few years. And then Peter and I actually started our own consulting company.
00:13:49
Speaker
Because we're like, well, we can do this. And we did. And we had, you know, several years of success. One of our clients was this nonprofit called the Philadelphia Center.
00:14:00
Speaker
And that used to be part of Hope College in Michigan. was an amazing off-campus program. You know, how you go to Spain or Rome or Tokyo to study for a semester. Well, there's several domestic programs, two in Chicago, two in D.C., one in Philly, one in New York.
00:14:16
Speaker
And so this is the Philadelphia program, the Philadelphia Center, and they need it like someone to teach entrepreneurship. i' like, well, I launched my company and, you know, I can i can help teach entrepreneurship.
00:14:26
Speaker
And so then they also said, well, we need help with enrollment because our enrollment slow. i'm like, OK, well, let's take a look. because I put a plan together and they're like, OK, great. Well, who's going to implement it? I'm like, I don't know. You paid me to put a plan together. And so they hired me and to be their director of marketing.
00:14:42
Speaker
And then I actually wound up teaching a couple of courses there. And that's when I started traveling the country talking to presidents of liberal arts colleges and provosts and professors about the value of experiential education.
00:14:57
Speaker
And I had had six, seven years outside of higher ed. Right. I had a perspective that most people in higher ed never get because they stay in higher ed their whole lives. Nothing wrong with that.
00:15:09
Speaker
But it's like I know what the world thinks of you because I've been out in that world and I can see things differently. And Donna Randall, who was former president of Albion College, put me in one of the leadership programs, think the Council of Independent Colleges for future college leaders.
00:15:28
Speaker
And so I was like, oh, yeah, this is cool. And long story short, stayed there five years, double enrollment, had a really good time. But after five years, there's nothing else for me to do.
00:15:41
Speaker
So I applied for the associate vice president of career development position at Augustana College in Illinois. and And I'd ask my family, think my daughter had graduated college.
00:15:52
Speaker
My son was still at college. And of course my wife. And they're like, just do what you want to do. Like, just do what you want to do. I'm like, okay. And I got the job. Who knew I'd get this job? So I'm out in the Midwest at Augustana College, hire a great team.
00:16:07
Speaker
And we create them. Let's talk about getting stuff done. We actually, because my admin, Lisa, came in one day into my office couple of weeks into my time there. And she said, oh, you're really serious. We get stuff done.
00:16:20
Speaker
And I'm like, it's called work for a reason, Lisa. Let's go get stuff done. And we created, i say it's still the nation's, well, at that time, this is back in 14, 15, 16, the nation's first professional preparation tracking program for liberal arts students.
00:16:36
Speaker
So in other words, what we did real quick is if if you were freshman, you were you know trying to get these five things done, you would get 10 points.
Personal Challenges and Career Decisions
00:16:45
Speaker
If you were sophomore, if you got these five things done, you'd get 20 points and so on and so forth.
00:16:50
Speaker
so So early badging? What's that? Like early badging? i mean, basically, you know, for badging in efforts. But really designed with, like, career readiness in mind.
00:17:02
Speaker
Yeah. And I had IT create a little app. And so whenever you came into our career office, we would sit down and we would write a career Rx, you know, like a prescription pad. We had career Rx pads.
00:17:14
Speaker
And we said, OK, let's know, Fritz, you've you have a LinkedIn profile. you You redid your resume. ah But the one thing you haven't done is you haven't done a job shadow. So we'd like you to like to set up a job shadow for you.
00:17:27
Speaker
You know, what's what's of interest interest to you? So that was pretty amazing. I was very proud of that team, like really proud of that team. That's great stuff. I mean, this is well, we we might. Does the name John Lawler ring a bell to you?
00:17:39
Speaker
It does. Why do I know that name? ah Yeah, I was just wondering if we had like ah we barely crossed paths. Lawler group. a higher marketing firm. They worked with Augustana back in the day. I worked with Augustana. Oh, okay. Okay. It seems like you overlapped. So I was wondering if there like a... Probably. degrees of separation without Kevin Bacon in it.
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure. That's right. That's right. um So things have to get a little bit personal here because it's part of the story. So I'm there a year. You know, we do this launch.
00:18:09
Speaker
Other schools come and visit. They're like, what are you doing with this Viking score? This is amazing. We got a lot of good press for it. And meanwhile, I'm thinking, well, this isn't hard. I mean, like, like the one thing outside of higher ed teaches you is like, you get stuff done every day or you don't exist.
00:18:26
Speaker
Like one of the problems with higher ed is there's no sense of urgency. We work in semesters. ah You know what? We meet twice, twice a year, once in the fall, once in the spring. and but that's You're not going to get anything done doing that. Anyway, side note.
00:18:38
Speaker
So on summer of 15, so 11 years ago, my God. Summer of 15, my dad passes away suddenly of stage four lung cancer.
00:18:51
Speaker
And 50 days later, my wife's father, but my wife's mother passes away suddenly. So summer of 15 was just tragic. And my mom you know graduated high school, living by herself in South Jersey.
00:19:06
Speaker
It was really struggling. And it's the only time I ever cried in a professional setting. I went into my provost, Perino Lawrence, super friends still to this day. And she looked at me, she goes, you got to you got to leave.
00:19:18
Speaker
You got to leave and go take care of your mom. I'm like, I do. don't have a job. my My kids in college and late my mid like. like And I'm like, I've waited the proverbial, you know, six months, seven months, eight months, whatever it was, you know, make a a decision, right? After something traumatic happens, you wait a few months.
00:19:37
Speaker
And I've waited and waited. But mom needs me. What what am I doing? Another leap of faith. Another leap of faith. And again, I said, all right, Michael, you're going to be on your deathbed. Are going to be proud that you stayed at Augustana or proud that you took care of your mother when she needed you most?
00:19:53
Speaker
He has my friends are like, you're crazy. The other half are like, it's your mother. Go do what needs to be done. And so scouts honor um driving across the left Iowa, driving across to New Jersey.
00:20:04
Speaker
I'd have a place to live. We sold our house. We had a place to live. We had nothing. And um Mercer County College called because I was applying all in all over the place right away. Like, oh, my God, I got to get a job, you know, and I was like, OK, the universe is taking care of me.
00:20:21
Speaker
And I landed at Mercer County College, director of continuing studies. They kind of knew you're probably not going to be here forever. You were just an AVP at Augustana. I'm like, i don't know. I'm like, I'm here now. Let me like do some good. Let me get things done.
00:20:36
Speaker
And I was there for a year and a half. And, you know, increased enrollment, increased net profit. It was like, OK. But then ah the dean of professional education and lifelong learning opened up at New Jersey City University.
00:20:48
Speaker
And I applied and get that job. And I was like, okay, now after two years, I'm kind of back on track, whatever the heck that means. And launched the division there, launched the Center for Workforce and Community Development, getting things done.
00:21:03
Speaker
Great team, good. People just want to get things done, right? They really do in higher ed. You just have to want to make that commitment to get things done. And had a lot of support. But then four years after that, they collapsed financially.
00:21:18
Speaker
and laid off a bunch of people. So I was in one of those rounds of layoffs. And ah again, in the universe, I think that, you know, that karma, karma is not what we think of in the West.
00:21:29
Speaker
They also used to be a certified yoga instructor and I studied Sanskrit and
00:21:34
Speaker
a lot of terms that we use a lot. And my good friend, Joe Kanopka, who's at ah Ocean County College, he hired me to teach for the year and I landed where I'm at now on JIT. So it's a very nontraditional way, but there's a lot of lessons, right, to unpack for people.
Workforce Development and Education Philosophy
00:21:53
Speaker
yeah Let's unpack some more. Yeah, yeah, please ask away. Like, it's all good. one One thing I'm just kind of curious, Michael, is e with that with having the phd like you could have you could have and and i don't know what your decision making process was right like in the jobs that you're looking for maybe you were applying for for for faculty positions as well and and and you know whatever but yeah but it seems like you made this decision at some point that you're going to stay in like this continuing ed workforce development right right how how did you how did you land to say
00:22:32
Speaker
this is where I'm going to be. me like I look at my like my background, you know admissions, marketing recruitment, and then kind of evolved into the online space and and strategic planning, institutional research. like there's a lot of I have loted a lot of little buckets, right? Sure. You kind of fell into a bucket of workforce development continuing.
00:22:53
Speaker
Was that because of your experience right after your PhD of ah doing that work with that external company? it's It's a good question, Kevin.
00:23:05
Speaker
I think it stems from conversations I had in my 20s with Jolly in a gym at Cabrini College saying, what do I do with this degree? And if I didn't have their guidance, right, and their support and their love and their kindness, I don't know where I would have been.
00:23:22
Speaker
And so when I was going through the Masters and I found Lowell and Lowell was just a super nice guy and so smart and supportive. I mean, my God, his expertise is on political philosophy and my head would hurt talking to him.
00:23:35
Speaker
But I would reflect and say, This the larger conversation is around career readiness, career preparation, workforce development.
00:23:47
Speaker
Right. And and the world of professional education. Right. Which just happens to fall into most schools and in the non-credit realm. And so I'm in my 20s thinking there's got to be something there there.
00:24:01
Speaker
Like, I don't know what there is yet. So I get my PhD. And I meet a lot of people during those days, I'm presenting at conferences, then I'm working in a for profit world.
00:24:12
Speaker
And I come across people, and I think one, maybe two, there's two, um but i I remember one distinctly. Only one person ever asked, Oh, you have a PhD, what's your PhD in?
00:24:26
Speaker
And I'm like, oh, history. And they're you know what? Then they're like, oh, well, mine's in both. And I'm like, oh, you have a PhD too, and you're in this business. And they're like, yeah, because it's all skill based, not knowledge based. And so the more i did that, but by the time I got to the Philadelphia Center in 08, thereabouts, 09, and then each semester, we've got 50, 60 students from around the nation.
00:24:50
Speaker
And if you just stop for a moment, and see them as people and not students. They're hungry for help. They need guidance.
00:25:02
Speaker
They want guidance. They want you to have high expectations for them. And so I became like the resident person. Like, can you look at my resume? Can you help me prep for an interview? Can you, this thing is LinkedIn now, what do I do on LinkedIn?
00:25:15
Speaker
And I was like, my goodness, these people need help. I like this. This is what a college should do is to help people, not just teach them. right Not just educate them.
00:25:27
Speaker
and educate write The etymology of the word educate comes from the ancient Greeks, educat right to bring light into darkness. and We do that very well. We educate our students, but I don't think we prepare them well enough.
00:25:39
Speaker
and so That's what I fell into, if that makes any sense. It does. it does i want to Kelvin's normally not so quiet, so I want to give him space here. to If he's got something on his mind, I've got tons of stuff. but Kelvin, I'm passing the mic to you.
00:25:55
Speaker
No, the just observations, really, before we move forward. I mean, it's just great that you you took a chance to two go to college. I loved what you said about applying to one because I thought I was the only person in the world. I did that too.
00:26:09
Speaker
where Literally all of us won college. That's it. And I knew by Christmas. I knew by Christmas. Yeah, yeah.
00:26:19
Speaker
Same here. Yeah. Yeah. No. So, and I love, um, I love for our listeners to just, uh, I mean, I really appreciate you sharing with us and them as as people listen to this podcast about also how the path or up half that we take doesn't happen in a vacuum, right? Like you were starting a family,
00:26:43
Speaker
Right. Around the time that you were starting PhD program, which to me is still pretty amazing. Like when I went, I mean, I'm i'm about just a few years younger than you. And I just remember, you know, doing the PhD, master's PhD together, but I didn't have to worry about any of that. Like that was just...
00:27:02
Speaker
I was barely having a girlfriend, let alone trying to ah you know marry. Now I got a kid. right That was interesting, too, because that yeah that could be another episode in and of itself.
00:27:13
Speaker
yeah yeah You also mentioned something, your connections indirectly or directly with Michigan. I'm a native. I grew up in Detroit. Oh, OK. So I totally get what you were saying there.
00:27:26
Speaker
So either now or maybe before we, you know, before we wrap up today, i would love for you to, to share with us a little bit more about like, just given all the things that were happening in your life, like what kept you,
00:27:41
Speaker
grounded, focused? Because i'm I'm sure there were a couple of times there, especially given the fact that some of the schools that you worked for eventually went away. Like what what kept you motivated you know, to keep going?
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah. it's a it' a Should I answer that now? i mean, i can. it's a yeah that'd be great. Yeah, it's a really great question. The thing about me I i love to achieve. um like I just love to do.
00:28:15
Speaker
i i can't cook, sing or dance. You never want me to do any of those three things. But I just love getting stuff done. Like taking an idea and turning that into reality.
00:28:29
Speaker
I know people think I'm a little bit crazy. And that's okay. I think I've earned that. But you know, you think of the giraffe, right? Or the elephant or the rhinoceros.
00:28:39
Speaker
Pick an animal. We have two dogs. They're smart. They learn. They communicate. They do a lot of things humans do. But they can't turn an abstract idea into reality.
00:28:52
Speaker
My God, that is like the greatest gift a human has. But it's so hard. It's so hard to get anything done because of the thousand and one reasons, right? And distractions.
00:29:05
Speaker
Laundry, that's the joke in our house. Why aren't you achieving? Why aren't you achieving? goal It's laundry. Laundry's problem. No, it's not. It's not laundry. you're not You're not focused. No, I'm pretty sure it's laundry.
00:29:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. We can find the excuses, right?
Leadership and Change Management
00:29:21
Speaker
But I just really admire people that have been able to overcome the odds.
00:29:28
Speaker
And if you take a look, again, the research is overwhelmingly clear on this. Overwhelmingly clear. Pick a famous person. Doesn't matter what field they're in. You pick a famous person.
00:29:40
Speaker
Pick put a 10 of those together. Seventy five percent of them had a terrible childhood or had to overcome something traumatic in their life. In other words, they grew up building resilience.
00:29:52
Speaker
And so if you have that in your DNA. again, I like this. I like the phrase, you're unstoppable. It's actually uncomplicated. You're just able to get things done. And so i had to overcome 101 things like that we didn't even get into.
00:30:07
Speaker
And so getting stuff done is like, yeah, whatever. Like, it's not a big deal. Let's go. But you work in higher ed. Yes. Here's the question for you. So what allows you to and it's not like you're just starting to really be a positionality now.
00:30:28
Speaker
You know, you're you're in a pro a provost. Right, right. Are you an assistant or associate provost, whatever. she had prot Okay. So now you have positionality, you know, if you if you have leadership by and above you and support, then you can push things. But yes, you've clearly been getting stuff done in higher ed for a very long time.
00:30:45
Speaker
Yeah. From grassrootsy and middle levels. How? What's your secret weapon, your philosophy, your method? Because... you know, at those levels, it's often hard to get things done or least move the needle on things, initiatives and things. Um, when you have wrapped in other layers that don't often move quickly to take advantage those.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah. It's a great question. I think it all starts during the interview process at this level. If you don't have vision, don't apply for the job. Like you have to, you have to, um,
00:31:22
Speaker
You have to have a vision. And if without a vision, sorry
00:31:31
Speaker
During the interview process for Augustana and then at NJCU and then at NJIT,
00:31:39
Speaker
I just by presented a vision. It wasn't fully flushed out. It wasn't by any means like perfect, but you have to be a visionary. And if they buy the vision, then your job is to implement the vision.
00:31:52
Speaker
I think that's key though, because you you were you were applying and going to and organizations that bought into the vision and then you were able to, you had room to run get fun. You weren't working for, let's be honest, there often leaders who just want compliance out of their- 100%, no, 100%. Leadership direct reports.
00:32:11
Speaker
I've seen it, I've lived it. i know Kelvin and Kevin and I have talked about this. You were able to navigate to organizations that didn't buy into that crap. Well, I wouldn't see. And Fritz, this is such an important point to understand.
00:32:26
Speaker
When I would go on interviews and like demonstrate my vision, you know, I would measure the reaction. Yeah. and And I would say, look, if you're not interested, I completely understand.
00:32:38
Speaker
i said, I can't take a job where I just come in in the morning, turn the lights on and then at night shut the lights off. That's not me. I want to come in. I'm either going to blow everything up and start over, or we're just going to build from scratch and we're going to make something out of nothing.
00:32:54
Speaker
If you don't want that, I completely understand. Then you don't want me. Right. you and that And I would say that like, just like this in an interview, because what you see is what you get with me.
00:33:05
Speaker
And I would say Fritz, I'm honestly, this isn't going to work. I'm going to come in and I want to build from scratch. And I get it. If you don't want me to do that, So it's been nice talking to you, but the interview should end now.
00:33:18
Speaker
And it always kisses everyone by surprise because who the interviews like that at High Red? I love this. You know, this is why I love folks from Jersey and Philly because you're you I'm from – my roots all in the south. I'm from Missouri and my I got deep roots in the south. but I live in Minnesota now.
00:33:35
Speaker
That is not like that here. So I know i love the bluntness and the – like, hey, man, this is going work. It's been great talking you. Bye. Bye. Well, Augustana, I mean, I scared the heck out of most of them.
00:33:48
Speaker
And the students even said like one day to the provost, could you tell Dr. Edmondson to like not yell so much? And she just laughed and she said, I'll talk to But I'm like, well, this is just me. I'm just being me. This is how we talk in Philly. i about Yelling, I'm talking.
00:34:05
Speaker
Yeah, I don't even know what you're talking about. a I don't have an accent and be I'm that loud. You know, it's very fun. It's very funny. But I understand like the cultural differences. So that's why when I would be when I would interview with people and even it with NJIT, I'm like, yeah, you guys don't have like anything in the non credit space like It's the only sector of the industry that's growing.
00:34:30
Speaker
Yeah. It's the only sector. I mean, it's nice that some schools have like their highest like undergraduate classes this year. Yeah. But the market's not growing. The market hasn't grown since 08 and will not grow.
00:34:43
Speaker
It's not growing. What's your discount rate? Yeah. Your headcount. What's your what's your what's your discount rate? Right. You're bringing in more people. Great. What's your net profit margin? Right. Like, you know, it's nice. But at end of the day, like, OK, so I think what you have to do is be honest with like, what type of person do you want to be?
00:35:05
Speaker
And what I learned in my late 30s, early 40s is, oh, you have this vision thing like you do a lot of thinking. You have a vision like what the Philadelphia Center here's my vision, you know, for this place at Augustana.
00:35:22
Speaker
By the way, what's missing in the marketplace is this tracking system for liberal arts students at a top tier liberal arts school. Let's create it Yes, it does help if the provost supports you. Absolutely.
00:35:34
Speaker
You figure that out during the interview though. I've went on plenty of any interviews. I'm like, oh, I can't work in this place. They're not interested in change. And it's okay. Like, I get it. You're not interested in change, but it's just not a good marriage then.
00:35:48
Speaker
It's fine. So then you, you, you, you match with an organization that is a good fit, right? Yes. Over your career, you've matched with these organizations where it's good fit.
00:36:00
Speaker
Then what then what is what are you doing that's getting stuff done? Like what what's that secret sauce? So there's three things. One is you hopefully have been given some financial support to hire people.
00:36:16
Speaker
Like if you that's gotta to be during the interview process too. was like, hey, like what's the level of support? And if it's not there, again, it's gonna be hard to like do, even if it's a little bit, like that's helpful.
00:36:28
Speaker
Number two is you have to then start to tell the story. Like what's your story that you're selling? And number three, as painful as it may be, you gotta to get the faculty on your side.
00:36:40
Speaker
You know, you're not gonna get all of them. You're never gonna get all of them. You get a few early you know adopters and then you leverage their relationships and then that's how you build.
00:36:52
Speaker
If you go in thinking you gotta win everybody over, forget it. Look, I've been laughed at, I've been ridiculed, I've been ignored. That's probably another aspect that we don't have time to get into are the personal traits.
00:37:04
Speaker
You're gonna have to have a thick skin. I've been laughed at to my face. And i was like, God, you are so, like I'm saying to myself, like Michael, because I can go off Philly. People know like, Michael, please don't go off Philly on them, but I got to tell you what they said.
00:37:20
Speaker
I'm like, okay, I got it. And um
00:37:25
Speaker
I just say, you know, ah try to remind myself, Michael, this person, A, has probably never been outside of higher ed. B, and doesn't even know people in another department across campus.
00:37:38
Speaker
And C, doesn't really factor in into what you're trying to do. Let it go. Let it go. And they ah you laugh at me, it's fine. At the end of the day, i still get stuff done.
00:37:50
Speaker
And that's okay. That's okay. I mean, I've been laughed at everywhere I've gone. I've also gotten hell of a lot done everywhere I've gone. And, you know, Lisa, the admin, we're still friends on Facebook.
00:38:01
Speaker
We still talk people at Mercer, people at NGSU, almost at McLeft. But, you know, I'm still friends with many of the people where we've gotten a lot of things done. And always say, guys, it's called work for a reason.
00:38:14
Speaker
What are we doing? Are we serious about this or not? I just did a presentation. i doing a lot of talk about AI lately. was at a school district. It was an AI conference for K through 12 teachers and administrators in South Jersey.
00:38:28
Speaker
And it was at a high school. And so what they did very smartly is they had high school students like babysit each of the speakers because we're in the different classrooms and we don't know where we're going in the building or anything.
00:38:40
Speaker
And so I had a lovely young lady. I think she was a sophomore babysitting me. And of course, I have to draw her into the conversation. And I'm like, it's OK. Don't worry about it. it There's 50 people here. And so I said, well, do you use AI?
00:38:52
Speaker
She goes, oh, yeah, I have a French tutor that's in AI. I'm like, that's amazing. That's fantastic. And your teacher like, a now oh, yeah, our teacher wanted us to use. Oh, great. And so I go on this spiel for an hour about the future of AI and how it's changing for the good and bad, but blah, blah, blah.
00:39:08
Speaker
And at the end, I go up to the show lady. and Her name was Victoria. I said, so do I scare the hell out of you or not? She goes, actually, what you said makes a lot of sense. And I don't feel scared about the future.
00:39:21
Speaker
I'm like, oh. And then I was like, OK, well, I have to reflect on that. And then I realized what I was doing and I do it at so subconsciously now, if I'm in the front of, I was at St. John's couple weeks ago, the 50 faculty, if I'm in front of faculty, so any any anyone of any influence, I just subconsciously go to the point where, hey, everyone in front of me, you're responsible for helping these kids out.
00:39:50
Speaker
You're responsible. because who else is going to do it? I said, your faculty members, your instructors, your administrators. Our responsibility is to help them get ready for a future.
00:40:02
Speaker
They're going to have jobs that don't yet exist using technologies that haven't been created to solve problems you haven't even identified. So go change your curriculum, update your curriculum, figure it out because they need your help.
Innovations in Non-Credit Education
00:40:15
Speaker
and And that's what she was talking about. She goes, you're like yelling at them to make sure they do a good job for us. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I just do that now, like so nonchalantly, because I really do as a first gen. I always go back. I'm a first gen. What am I doing?
00:40:31
Speaker
I have a PhD in history. I'm an associate provost and a top tier polytechnic. I better go help out people less fortunate than me. How dare me not to?
00:40:42
Speaker
We just won a million dollar grant from the New Jersey Department of Labor called a digital equity grant to help people you know get skilled, probably just have a high school diploma, if that, and to learn about the digital skills they need to land a job today and be successful.
00:40:59
Speaker
I think, yes, that's what we do. That's what we do. And we're doing more of it. And I just think it's schools took that kind of approach. think they'd be they would position themselves better.
00:41:13
Speaker
I think there's too much hubris. I've seen way too much hubris you know ah among my colleagues everywhere I've gone. Not all, not all, not all. you know But people understand that the student has to come first. The student experience has to be a priority.
00:41:33
Speaker
And not too often it's not. It's not. Yeah, and i you know I think you raised some good points. I think a lot of higher ed says that they always put the student first, right? That the student is at the middle of every interaction. The student is the reason why we're here, you know, those types of things. But I'm i'm a little curious with the push on AI and the push on skills.
00:41:57
Speaker
and And just as you mentioned, i mean, you're at a top tier polytechnic institution where all those degrees are are in essence skill based degrees. I mean, we don't really say that they are, but I mean,
00:42:10
Speaker
Computer programming is a skill, right? you know to You know, anything in that STEM type area is a skill. Do you think it's easier, since since you've had conversations with with individuals outside of NGIT, do you think it's easier for you to talk to faculty about the value of a skill or the value of workplace development or the value of these degrees are for employability versus conversations with folks that are outside of that world that aren't making the connection between skills and the degrees that they're teaching?
00:42:49
Speaker
That's a really good question. So my division is called the Learning and Development Initiative, or LDI. And it's the Professional Education and Non-Credit Division. I don't have a single four-credit course in my portfolio.
00:43:01
Speaker
So I present it you know to the faculty and ah remember it's an R1, right? So they're very focused on research and rightly so. They're very smart, research driven individuals, but they're very unfamiliar with the non-credit space.
00:43:16
Speaker
Like in my mind, yes, and there there are skill based degrees. They don't see them. mean, I can't speak for everybody. That would be completely unfair. They see it as more research, right? And theory based.
00:43:30
Speaker
Whereas the LDI, the Learning and Development Initiative, and we have a new workforce readiness model that we've created and it's been recognized as innovative. and It was an EDUCAUSE, the Horizon Report. i don't know if any of you are familiar with EDUCAUSE's Horizon Report.
00:43:46
Speaker
So and we were included in the most recent Horizon Report as an innovative like pedagogical model. And there are six skill domains, three tech, three humanistic. AI literacy, data literacy, digital literacy on the tech side, agile thinking, change navigation, and resource optimization on the humanistic side.
00:44:03
Speaker
So we truly are. but We have non-degree credentials. You get a digital badge, a verifiable credential. So we're all about the skills and knowledge. But on the four-credit side, it's about the degree.
00:44:14
Speaker
Right. Students have on the floor. They're on the four credit side. Learners are on the non credit side. And so what we've done is like we're starting to plug this tremendous hole, you know, in the marketplace for a skills based non credit offering.
00:44:32
Speaker
It just didn't exist. Like there should be thousands and thousands and thousands of people enrolled in our non-credit program. No, we're just starting. No, we're 16, 17, 18 months into it and we're off to a very good start.
00:44:48
Speaker
And it's very interesting. Like some faculty are like, oh yeah, I get this. Can you help me with this? Can you help me with that? And they're starting to see that even the structure of a non-credit course, right, is wildly different than a traditional three credit course.
00:45:02
Speaker
It's 45 hours of seat time. You've got 90 hours of homework. there's you know You've got all the accreditation standards to worry about. Non-credit side, we've created our own standards. As long as we meet those standards, which are best practices, then we're good to go.
00:45:16
Speaker
you know I'm trying to get us to a point where every 12 weeks, we're creating a new non-credit course. That seems like I tell people that in their heads pop off they're like, what do you mean every 12 weeks you get a new course?
00:45:29
Speaker
Well, why can't we? We have this model. Last year we did 18 courses. We're trying to do 24 this year. I'm pushing the envelope, pushing the envelope. Let's go. World's changing so quickly.
00:45:40
Speaker
No one can keep up with it. not saying we're going to keep up with it, but we're going to have the latest curriculum. You know, maybe it's a 20 hour course or 200 hour course to help someone who just wants to be upskilled. They don't want a degree, right?
00:45:55
Speaker
Like you've got a master's masters or whatever the case is. You don't want to go back for a master's degree. You just want a, you want a verifiable credential from NJ it here you go. AI literacy 200 hours.
00:46:08
Speaker
You're good to go. Yeah. I think one of the things that's interesting. So just the stuff that we've done and Nebraska in our non-credit space and and I don't know if Fritz or Kellen has seen this and in their worlds but I have more folks taking our non-credits that already have advanced degrees yes then i have individuals taking that don't have any education right like I have people the masters and a PhD coming back to take data analytics because they want they need that to upskill in their own work versus someone who's
00:46:40
Speaker
never gone to college or or whatever going, oh yeah, my first course, I just have this desire to learn data analytics. Yeah. That was go to be one of my questions you, Michael. is It sounds like things that people with post-secondary degrees want and need, you know, not just, certainly there's a need for people who have high school diplomas to tack these things on.
00:47:04
Speaker
But So, yeah, I don't that's not my part of what the university does. I don't work in our College of Continuing Professional Studies. I work with them a lot. But right right I imagine it would resonate what you're you both are saying would resonate with them.
00:47:16
Speaker
Yeah, I've often said, I mean, you know, all the talk about there aren't enough people going to college these days and so forth. I've often said there's no shortage of learners.
00:47:27
Speaker
There's just a shortage of people that want to go to college and get a degree. People want to learn. You give them a product that's attractive to them. Oh, they'll take it. They'll enroll in it. But if you make it like thousands of dollars and, you know, so much friction, like they don't have time.
00:47:46
Speaker
They're caring for children. They're caring for elderly parents, you know, um, my goodness, like yeah help the people out.
Value of Continuous Learning
00:47:55
Speaker
It's not about you.
00:47:57
Speaker
It's about them. And at higher ed, it's like the mirror has been broken. It's like, all we do is, oh, it's all about us. How can I benefit? No, no, no, no, no. no It's how do we benefit the society at large, right?
00:48:12
Speaker
I think that's, God, we just have lost sight of that sometimes. Sorry, again, I can go off these deep ends and go down these trails and I want to, I don't want to derail the podcast. You keep asking questions.
00:48:25
Speaker
I'm with you. appreciate your tender. Yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Calvin. No, I was just going to say we really appreciate your candor. And it's just, you know, it's just a reminder.
00:48:36
Speaker
um like what you said, too, though. It still kind of comes down to telling the story, making the argument as well, because, you know, faculty are busy oh and they are hired for particular reasons, maybe not for their teaching ability, but because they bring in research dollars. Right.
00:48:56
Speaker
That's right. You have to be kind of like a translator. hu part translator, part lawyer, debater. You have to really kind of like show it that there's something in it for them in addition to the greater good, which is you know when they work with you, there can be a greater good to the learners that will benefit from these courses that you're developing.
00:49:21
Speaker
Yeah, to your point, when I presented to the all the faculty chairs, one came up at the end and said, you know, I had no idea your market even existed. I'm like, no, it's okay. I mean, and why would you? Like you're in your field doing good research and it makes perfect sense. Well, because they probably thought, oh, this is, you know, this was always the domain of community colleges. right. right Grade schools or whatever. I mean, they might the segmentation was more solidified and more obvious. Maybe it's right where back in the day.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But I just think there's so much potential for, you know, colleges to help out at the general level. at the general level, and which is what we're finding out now.
00:50:03
Speaker
I don't know. I just,
00:50:08
Speaker
maybe the subtitle of the podcast is it's not just getting things done higher ed. It's getting things done in higher ed that matter, right? And have influence and an impact on people's lives.
00:50:19
Speaker
And I'm a first gen that I lived. i wasn't away from my parents ever for 18 years. I didn't have any money to go to camps and, like you know, do that stuff that other kids had opportunities to do.
00:50:32
Speaker
So I ran cross country at Cabrini. And so that kept me wildly busy, which is wonderful. And Cabrini had a policy back in 88 for six weeks. You couldn't see your parents. Don't go home.
00:50:44
Speaker
And I was like, okay, well, I'm busy anyway, so I don't have time to see anybody anyway. And so I remember that was heartbreaking for my parents. And when I saw them after six weeks, I was like, oh my God, like, I can't believe like I made it six weeks, you know, without, because back then, right? No cell phone, no internet, like, you know, it's a whole new world.
00:51:03
Speaker
And I look back at that very fondly saying, I'm glad they put that in place. Like I learned how to be resilient. Oh, by the way, fast forward. I did want to just come full circle here and finish. Cause you know, I don't want to leave the podcast without saying what happened.
00:51:21
Speaker
So when I, I got the job at Mercer and found a place, my wife and I found the place and then I guess
00:51:34
Speaker
Well, right away, mom and I would spend every Saturday together and we would do our thing and take her out shopping and stuff. and And then eventually a few years later, because that was like 15, 16, when I come back, 16, around there.
00:51:50
Speaker
So we did that for a few years and and told dad, you know, that I would take care of mom and my sister did a lot as well. And then COVID hit, I took care of mom during COVID.
00:52:01
Speaker
And then eventually, like she started, she just eventually she passed three years ago and I was there every step of the way with my sister. And I'm like, I have no regrets, no regrets, no regrets.
00:52:16
Speaker
You know, would I have still been in Augustana? I don't know. don't know. But I don't really understand the word regret. I do a whole thing on this. I could speak for an hour just on this one word, but I don't regret because I really like who I am today.
Personal Reflections and Advice to Students
00:52:36
Speaker
i think regrets are for people that don't like who they are, that struggle with their identity, but I don't regret anything, all the mistakes. First of all, you don't learn anything from success. You learn everything from failure.
00:52:49
Speaker
All the hard times, all the friction, all the difficulties, you know having a baby my first semester at Temple and you know working, just trying to make some bills. like That was ridiculous.
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah, but I made it. You make it. So I teach today, I teach effective communication. Used to be oral presentation and they changed it. So one of my questions, Michael, is, I mean,
00:53:14
Speaker
I wish we had more time. We always need more time. um I can always come back after that. Do a revisit. but we there's you There's so many interesting. There's so many. i have a million questions now, but one of them is, so we're in a time right now where college students, baccalaureate students of any age, I'm not going to just say 18 to 24 year olds. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:53:34
Speaker
um About the job market, finding a job. People in graduate school, same way. It's not, you know, it doesn't mean it's easier for them just because they're getting graduate degrees. That's right. What is your message to them? Because you, you lived, you, you finished college at a different time. 1988 was a different economy, the technological, everything.
00:53:51
Speaker
It's that world doesn't exist anymore in most ways. yeah For better, for worse. Right. Same thing with the late nineties when you finished your doctorate. Yep. So what is your message to learners now?
00:54:02
Speaker
in any setting that you were part of, a non-credit otherwise, where they're like, well, how do I do what this guy did? It seems like he just kind of fell into things, which is not the case. You worked your ass off.
00:54:14
Speaker
but I didn't have any help getting any job, let me tell you. pulling pulling it's ah We've we talked before in our Get to Know You sessions. We each pulled these strings that were very, like spider webs.
00:54:26
Speaker
You were talking about it too. I saw this space that I could do something outside of it faculty and history role. yeah yeah How do you find those strings and how do you make the leap of faith when there's so many things right now that are saying get a linear path, get that job oriented bachelor's degree, accounting to accounting, data analytics data analytics, whatever.
00:54:47
Speaker
And now AI is throwing all that out of whack because it's going to take our jobs and all this stuff. What's your message? It's a great question. i just told my I just gave my students this lecture the other night.
00:54:59
Speaker
And I've been saying this for decades now. If someone ever asks you, what do you want to do with the rest of your life? You are to give them the following answer. I do not know. Did you know when you were at 18, what you want to do with the rest of your life?
00:55:15
Speaker
And 99% of the people, if they're honest, will say no. And I said, if they give you a hard time, have them call me. I've yelled at plenty of parents. but And I am so tired of, I'm a parent.
00:55:28
Speaker
We raised two children. They got through college. They do not have to have the rest of their life figured out. I tell my daughter this all the time. All you got to do is figure out your next step.
00:55:40
Speaker
That's it. Just figure out your next step. That's it. and I told my students and they were so appreciative of the honesty. Right. I said the rates of depression among your age group, highest ever rates of anxiety, stress, loneliness.
00:55:56
Speaker
said, you know where that comes from? my it People my age. I said, and that's our fault. And we're not helping you. We're doing a disservice to you by telling you if you go to college and go to the right college, study the right major, and you get your dream job.
00:56:11
Speaker
I'm like, I don't understand. You just have one dream and that's it? I said, you should have as many dreams as you need two lifetimes to achieve. That way you're never bored. I said, stop it with this nonsense of having to figure out the rest of your life.
00:56:27
Speaker
You're going to have a job. You don't even know what my job didn't even exist years ago. here. Have it. How the hell are you going to know what you're going to have? but Focus in on your next step. So sit, focus on your next step.
00:56:41
Speaker
Stay committed to developing yourself every which way. And just take a leap of faith, man. Take a leap of faith. I've done it. It's scary. I had no job in my mid forties, but my mom needed me.
00:56:57
Speaker
Okay. Okay. That's what I want to do. Yeah. got a lot of people wouldn't do it. And I got it. I get it. You know, the industry has been pretty much the same since the middle ages.
00:57:13
Speaker
We just have been. The industry doesn't like change and we can spend hours just on that alone. But I am telling you, there's enough movers and shakers. You guys are three of them.
00:57:25
Speaker
There's enough, right? There's pockets. There's pockets of people that get stuff done. They do it quietly or me loudly. You know, they make some progress. You know, they're trying to put a dent in the universe. They're out there.
00:57:39
Speaker
But my goodness, the last thing you ever want to do is tell a young person or an older person, it doesn't matter. that they have to have it all figured out. No one has it figured out. No one ever has it figured out.
00:57:52
Speaker
You know, just stop. Just stop lying to them. Stop lying to them. Yeah, it's like great it's a great point because, again, it reminds us, and and maybe we'll we'll close on this, but it reminds us that we...
00:58:06
Speaker
are evolving, we are changing, right? As well as to some extent, higher ed is, even though it's slow, there there are you know opportunities for change that you do have to just be mindful of as well. So yeah it's great points.
00:58:23
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Yeah. And I think you ended it really well there, Michael, in that in that last part. And so thank you we we thank you. We appreciate that you took the time.
00:58:33
Speaker
oh thank you. This has been great. Hopefully you liked it and you'll air it. I don't know. thank We appreciate appreciate you sharing personal things as well as your your journey in higher ed. I think that's where all of us need to be. We all have the personal things that have kept us in or kept us out of the things that we're doing. And that that is who we are.
00:58:55
Speaker
on a day-to-day basis. And so that impacts what we do, both inside and outside of higher ed. And so I think it's important for people to hear that. And so we appreciate you taking taking the time to spend with us today, learning about what you've done and how you are getting stuff done in higher ed.
00:59:11
Speaker
And we look forward to seeing more of what you're doing and accomplishing NJIT or wherever your career takes you. Thank you so much, John. I really appreciate the time. Thanks for having me.