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GSD Episode 2: Get to Know Kelvin Bentley
17 Plays1 month ago
We'll get to know Kelvin Bentley, one of the three hosts of GSD Higher Ed hosts, and hear about his fascinating career in higher education and edtech, including his ventures into online education in the bad old days of the 1990s.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Purpose
00:00:02
Speaker
So welcome everyone to one of our first episodes for getting stuff done in higher education.
00:00:21
Speaker
welcome everyone to one of our first episodes for getting stuff done in higher education i'm fritz vanover one of your hosts joined today by my esteemed colleagues, Kevin Schreiner and Kelvin Bentley.
00:00:36
Speaker
So we thought one of the things we would do to get into this podcast is to to give everyone a way to get to know us.
00:00:47
Speaker
And Kelvin volunteered to go first. So we're gonna we're going to talk to Kelvin and get to know Kelvin today. We're going to talk about his journey into, through, and around higher education that brought him up to this moment today, what are we, July
Kelvin Bentley's Early Interest in Psychology
00:01:04
Speaker
29th, 2025. So, Kelvin, how did you come into higher ed?
00:01:11
Speaker
Why are you here? Well, no, that's a good question. No, I mean, for me, I think I've always been, i was always interested in school, definitely a bit of a nerd for that. um And I didn't really plan to be in higher ed. i mean, I think originally my goal after having a really cool um high school course on introduction on the introduction to psychology, I became a psychology major in college.
00:01:46
Speaker
So I guess really that was my first foray, right? Just like all of us in higher ed as a student. and But at that time, because I became a psych major, I was actually very interested in being a therapist more. Originally, when I was younger, maybe because I saw too many episodes of St. Elsewhere and other know, doctor shows, I was really turned on by being a medical doctor, but then i think after that psychology course, i was like, well, you know, maybe that'll be a slightly easier path.
00:02:18
Speaker
I'm not sure about the whole, like, you know, um you know, going trying to get through, you know trying to be a med student and blood and guts and all that stuff. So i was like, maybe psychology is a better fit.
00:02:30
Speaker
I like the subject matter. And this whole idea of maybe being a therapist, especially with like, um like teenagers, um uh families kids that kind of interests me so i um so i applied for a lot of different um clinical psych programs luckily i was able to get into one um that included a professor who was doing similar undergraduate research i mean he was doing research that aligned to some of the work that i was doing with a professor at wayne state university in detroit where i grew up and where i went to school um
00:03:10
Speaker
This is your undergrad. you're talking You're coming out of undergrad and you're getting into graduate. You're on track for graduate school. Yeah. Yeah. Hang on a second. Before you get down there. So what about, because I do not find psychology fascinating at all. So what about psychology in high school fascinated you?
00:03:27
Speaker
I don't, you know, it was, I think it was because it was relatable in some, some regards or certain elements of it. And I think because psychology as a field is so broad because it, it includes like, you know, to some extent, I feel like it includes so many other types of topics, like, um you know, showing you like how we think there's biology and neurobiology elements.
Choosing Wayne State University and Grad School Decisions
00:03:52
Speaker
And then, you know, taking biology, I was like, oh, that's, that's familiar to me. And then of course, it's about people. And so once we got to, I think, abnormal psychology, I was like, oh, yeah, I can see these types of personality traits or these, you know, potentially abnormal traits in people and certain family members you only see now and then. and
00:04:16
Speaker
And so so I think in some ways it just really fascinated me. It kind of just opened my eyes to, you know, that there's so much to learn about what you know but it means to be human in so many different ways, right? Cognitively, behaviorally, like all of that. So yeah. I think when I was in high school, my high school teacher said I had schizophrenic personality type of like things that were popping up. But part of it is also, I think you just try to We'll get to that the next episode. Make people think certain things when, you know, so. we We'll get to that in your episode. Now we're going to have to definitely dig into that, Kevin. That's thats all want to say about that.
00:04:59
Speaker
So you you're not a graduate and your interest is peaked as you're taking psychology. Yeah. Yeah. And a fun fact about me, about college too, like I, um you know, I applied to a lot of different graduate programs, but I actually only applied to one university.
00:05:16
Speaker
um undergraduate program, in part because, you know, my my, you know, we grew up in kind of a middle class or slightly lower middle class family. My dad worked for Chrysler for 40 plus years.
00:05:30
Speaker
um My mom worked as a clerk in a drug store and then she ended up working for Sears as a salesperson for several years too. And we did okay, but the the thing that about applying to one program, I wanted to find a way to make my education actually much more affordable.
00:05:52
Speaker
My sister, and I have a younger sister and Felicia and I actually went to Catholic school. We're not Catholic or we weren't Catholic at the time, but we went to Catholic school because it was an actual, like for our area, was kind of a ah better educational opportunity. And because my parents invested in middle school and high school, Catholic school programming, I was like, you know, I want to find a way to not have to ask my parents for even more money, right? To go into college. So,
00:06:25
Speaker
Luckily, I was able to, you know, I mean, I got into Wayne State. and And then I was able to, you know, find a scholarship that actually paid for all of my education. So, you know, minus books and and things like that. So, um yeah, so applied for different programs in clinical psychologist she clinical psychology specifically.
00:06:48
Speaker
and luckily, you know, when I went to University of Delaware's campus and met with ah who was going to be my research advisor, it just, you know, everything kind of clicked. um And luckily I had a couple of different offers to go to other schools, but i think but I think it was this transition too from like being at Wayne State University, which is more of an urban campus um in Midtown, Detroit,
00:07:13
Speaker
versus Delaware where it was like, you know more of a a traditional university, like there were trees and grass, right? And I don't I think I was just, you know, i'm looking for that opportunity or that environment, you know, after being in the urban jungle for for
Teaching Passion and Post-Doctorate Experiences
00:07:30
Speaker
four years. so
00:07:33
Speaker
So when you when you apply from undergrad to grad,
00:07:40
Speaker
don't know what question i was going to ask, but I mean, So medical programs are clearly different, right? You have to figure it through. come So for clinical psych, it's just like applying to gra like ah grad school in general.
00:07:54
Speaker
So you basically just figured out where you wanted to go, professors that you had heard research about or different types of things like that. Yeah, it was it was an interesting process because you know this this was still, you know to date myself, um you know this was like, um yeah I graduated in 1992. And so it's like, well, yeah, right. Another thing we have in common, Kevin. There's nothing wrong 92 grad.
00:08:24
Speaker
No, no. Yeah, I'm 98. I'm so young. I'm so young. You are very young. You're baby. yeah But, you know, the the the interesting thing was like, I i mean, I just remember like, um I don't even know how I found this information. I think maybe through advisors um at at Wayne State, but there was no internet back then, right? Or at least...
00:08:48
Speaker
um Nothing visual yet. ah ride Right, right. Text-based. go Yeah, text-based. I remember having a Pine email address once I got to graduate school in 92. so but But the internet was still not really formed yet. so um So I think I just you know applied. I mean, I requested or got little those little postcards right where you could get...
00:09:10
Speaker
like, um you know, these big books that talked about different programs and and then just went from there to apply ah to as many as I could afford. and And I was told you really need to apply to a lot. I don't remember how many I applied to, but I ah do remember applying to several and even going to a couple schools, you know, that that were somewhat nearby. Like I remember going to Bowling Green and and and some other schools, just driving out just to visit with folks and
00:09:42
Speaker
get a sense of the campus. but But the interesting thing, back to our original question, right, about like what brought you to higher ed, you know, graduate school was kind of a challenge. It was, well, it was challenging for a lot of different reasons. I was on my own for the first time.
00:09:57
Speaker
The classes were, you know, the content was definitely harder. um And so, you know, I think I really, i mean not not to say I think, I know, I struggle you know to really um to do well and you know keep keep my grades up. and and um And then the therapy work didn't feel like it's definitely an art form. um And our program was really cool in the sense that it didn't say, well, you have to, know,
00:10:27
Speaker
you know we're not training you. No one ever said, well, you have to be a cognitive therapist versus a Freudian or, you know, like we, we were kind of left or left to kind of figure that out. Like we were given plenty of information about different schools of thought about psychology and how to, to practice clinical psych interventions and,
00:10:50
Speaker
And it was definitely an art form. um And kind of just over time, you know after i finished my my dissertation, I realized I really enjoy teaching a bit more. Like it I'm more of an extroverted person in therapy.
00:11:05
Speaker
um You know, i mean, your audience is usually of one or a couple or or family members. And of course, you're dealing with a lot of challenging concerns, which is fulfilling when you're able to to to help. And, know,
00:11:20
Speaker
But i I don't know, I enjoyed being a TA. a you know i didn't know and I didn't receive all the money in the world to be a TA, but I was you know i was thankful to have some money from that. and and And I did enjoy working with different groups of students. I was a TA a for the Rat Lab.
00:11:37
Speaker
um So Skinner boxes, you know, helping students train rats on different learning schedules, which actually really enjoyed. it I enjoyed doing that as an undergrad with Apple IIe computer and then also the the the early PCs that we used that were attached to the the Skinner boxes at University of Delaware. So yeah.
00:12:00
Speaker
um So gradually after i I did a pre-doctoral internship at Kansas State University's counseling center, and then once I was done with that, I actually sought out teaching positions. So ah that's how I actually got in officially um into higher atd as as ah as a teacher or an assistant professor.
Developing Online Psychology Programs
00:12:24
Speaker
So this is, so now we're talking mid-1990s, latter 1990s. You finished your doctorate. Yeah. Your PhD in psychology, clinical psychology still technically. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
So you start, you're, you're on the market, you're teaching. Okay. What, tell me, tell us about that, what that was like. And then, cause what I'm interested is where you start to make this shift from that path into the little branches that lead, start leading towards where you are now.
00:12:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing with, you know, it's interesting to reflect on this. Like, I feel like this is a cool therapy session, right? We can just like, you know, kind of like think back to all the decisions. So I feel like in some ways I really just got lucky. Like, to be honest with you, I taught at a couple of different schools, two schools after i got my doctorate.
00:13:18
Speaker
And, you know, I mean, I enjoyed the teaching part, but then I was, you know, i still had to kind of figure out like, you know, to be i was in tanger track positions right so the research piece i was really kind of struggling with i like what am i actually going to like research and then how to involve students and i don't know i was still kind of like figuring out like what what do i want to be like is there a way for me just to teach without having to do the research portion but um luckily for me i met um i met a woman who
00:13:52
Speaker
um eventually became my wife. And when I did that, um we were dating at the time, like I was teaching for your college of Pennsylvania and she was finishing up her graduate degree at the University of Memphis.
00:14:08
Speaker
And um and then eventually she got she went back to Louisiana um to her alma mater to to be a teacher. And so because we really liked each other. Right. We were like, well, you know, we've got to figure out a way to like actually like live in the same or, you know, at least 50 miles from each other to see if, you know, this is going anywhere. And so I applied and I got another ah third tenure track position at Northwestern State University in Louisiana, which was about 50 miles away from where Courtney was living.
00:14:46
Speaker
And that job, Fritz, actually came with an opportunity to build what was at the time Louisiana's first fully online um Bachelor of Science program in psychology. What year was this?
00:15:02
Speaker
this was well this was um This was in 2001. So I had a chance. So I ah remember I just happened to see a job posting, I think, um yeah, online for for the the Chronicle and decided to apply because I used MapQuest or whatever to figure out.
00:15:24
Speaker
yeah that this split What's the distance between here and there? You triple A. Exactly. Yeah. and And luckily they interviewed me. And I remember I i had i had a lot of trouble with the presentation because the thumb drive I used for it stopped working. And so I had to kind of like ad lib all my PowerPoint notes from memory. but oh man. Yeah.
00:15:48
Speaker
Luckily, they still liked me enough to hire me. And that position changed everything, right? So personally, it allowed us to be closer. And then um a year or so later, we got married, which was amazing.
00:16:02
Speaker
But then that position also gave me an opportunity to be an administrator for the first time i was a program manager for this new degree program working very closely with our department chair and then in the two years i was there within the two years she took on another position at the school and so i became like the acting head of the psych department which was kind of weird but um but you know so i did some administrative work there with her support and the support of our dean who kind of trained me up, you know, to to assist him and ah monitoring the things I needed to monitor monitor for that department. And it was actually the first time, too, that I was like a supervisor of people who were much older than myself. So that that was interesting to negotiate. But but that that position really i think it really helped me to grow
00:16:56
Speaker
um It helped me to start to grow as a leader more, I think. um And it also gave me a chance to really do something very novel um because, you know, online learning back then, I mean, schools were doing it, but it was not, it was still very suspect, right? There was no quality matters rubrics or, you know, anything like that. Even just the technology was very homegrown.
00:17:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
Career Progression in Online Education
00:17:23
Speaker
We were using... What was your LMS? Did you use Angel or was it something else? No, this was before Angel, I want to say. Like, this was still Blackboard, I think, in 2001. Or old Blackboard, WebCT, or even... Was Moodle even... Moodle was just fresh out of the script. I mean, used in 2004. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:42
Speaker
yeah Yeah, this was definitely early days of Blackboard for us. And so it was interesting. ga the The role gave me some opportunities to work with the learning management system for the first time.
00:17:54
Speaker
But then it also gave me an opportunity to also defend a new... a new way of offering a degree program within the state. We had to get approvals and then and we also had to submit a proposal to SACS, COC, our accreditor.
00:18:11
Speaker
And so, yeah, this it was a great learning opportunity for a lot of different reasons. And and um and then, like I said, actually, i didn't say this yet, but 2002 is when Courtney and got married. so lots that Lots of cool things happened just within the two years I was there in that in that role.
00:18:31
Speaker
But that role changed everything because after I had become... an acting, you know, head of the department and was making a bit more money. i was like, you know, i kind of like the flexibility of an administrative role in terms of like trying out new things and, um and definitely like the, you know, to have a ah a slightly better salary. And so I joined a dark side of the force and became, you know, sought out administrator roles and subsequent positions. And, you know,
00:19:03
Speaker
so So, Calvin, what what type like what type of administrator roles were you looking for then? Well, because I had that that more recent experience of being a program manager for the psych programs, online program, that's the type of position that I sought out specifically, which was interesting because there weren't, you know, it's not like every school. yeah there wasn't a whole lot. It was very novel. Like we talk, we hear about it now, like Upsia has like Colo and
00:19:33
Speaker
you know, these cool acronyms for things, but that was not, that was not the case. I felt like Northwestern state at the time was a trendsetter because even LSU wasn't really doing anything with online learning back then.
00:19:47
Speaker
Um, Of course, they're doing more of it now, more recently, even before the pandemic. But um but yeah but for me, it was like, yeah, i you know i got a ah dean's position at Baker College in in Michigan, and they had an online campus.
00:20:06
Speaker
So I had an opportunity to to oversee specifically like gen ed courses. ah that were being taught online. So I was you know involved in hiring the faculty and doing evaluations of how they ah you designed and facilitated their courses.
00:20:26
Speaker
So that was a great learning experience too, because again, that that chief online learning officer role just did not exist at a lot of places back then. And a lot were tied to IT. t So I mean, was your first role, were you seeing a lot more roles in the IT information technology type around more closely aligned with implementation of LMS versus the instructional side of the LMS and faculty training and- Yeah, no, that's a good that's a good question. I would say yes, because I think just by default, that that position just exploded as more and more schools adopted um that type of technology.
00:21:08
Speaker
and And that's what made, I think, some of my other roles after after leaving Baker College interesting because, you know, being a director of online learning eventually i became i worked four years as the director of online learning at a community college um in bethlehem pennsylvania called northampton community college and i remember even back then like you know, the are the chief, the CIO was very protective of anything technology related. And so I had to work very closely with her just to say, hey, like, I want to try new things. i want to try to bring in like Illuminate Live ah to do some, you know, online tutoring. And she was very resistant at first and in part because she said, well, you know,
00:21:56
Speaker
um our you know my My staff is overworked right now. And I said, no, no problem. I'm going to learn as much as I can about this platform. And it's a pilot anyway.
00:22:07
Speaker
So you don't have to support me in doing it. i'll I'll take the lead and work with tutors and train them up on on how to use it. and And so when she heard that, she she actually you know backed away. and And luckily, I had support from the vice president of academic affairs to do that particular pilot. But yeah, technology was back then was a little bit tricky. You had to really form the right relationships, establish trust, right? Oh yeah. With teams so that they didn't see you as a threat to their turf.
00:22:39
Speaker
Right. So yeah, I mean, back then you were work because I was in a very, so I'm sure all three of us were, but you were,
00:22:50
Speaker
working between different worlds, technology, academic, and there weren't these clear roles yet. you you We kind of made it up as we went along. i guess like And yeah you had a you had a foot hole you had a foothold in the academic space. You've got your doctorate in clinical psych, you've got teaching experience.
00:23:11
Speaker
And then as you're gaining technology chops, you know, you're able to generate credibility in both. And I, for me, I found that to be really important as I moved along my career. And so um I think we're going to find some very similar themes amongst the three of us. So yeah, well, that's really well said because am, I just think it's just true regardless of the position. There's not really a playbook, right? Like there might be, right. You have a job description, but but there's nothing formulized, right? Like here, here, here's a book of things that you need to be thinking about and,
00:23:49
Speaker
And, you know, these are things to think about when you're working with faculty versus the IT team versus other constituents. Like you do have to be very nimble and and and and you have to be a creative thinker. You also have to, I think, be a good listener, right? And and listen.
00:24:06
Speaker
think this is where maybe some of my clinical psych skills came in handy because, you know, like faculty, I remember at a couple of the schools I worked with were very like resistant to online learning.
00:24:17
Speaker
um And really, you know, by just listening to them, their concerns, like, it wasn't that they distrusted online, but I think think they were, they were just worried like, oh, my God, online learning is going to take over, I'm going to lose my job.
00:24:32
Speaker
And I feel like we're going through this with AI, right? Like, oh my God, like AI is gonna take everyone's jobs away. so- But be fair, I mean, back then, it was a heavy lift to do stuff online.
00:24:44
Speaker
If you wanted to capture video, it was manual. There was so much that manual. You wanted to develop, build stuff, it was HTML, you build stuff, we built stuff, whether was an LMS, I was at institutions where we built LMSs, we built media for it. It was all heavy lifts. So faculty looked at it and they're like, wow, how am I going to do this without adding to my already full plate of tenure promotion criteria?
00:25:11
Speaker
so Yeah. so Right. Yeah. So, Cal, when you look back at 2001, my first foray into online, and then kind of the things have happened you know, let's just say five, six years during that time, director of online and all those types of things. And you think now to the role of online or the role that Apsia has kind of defined as what the colo, who the colo is and what they do.
00:25:39
Speaker
And I think the colo, when I think about a colo, I think of them being, they're just not about the LMS. They're not just about instructional design. There's so many other pieces now.
00:25:50
Speaker
Yeah. When you think back to like what you were doing, how much would you say that yours was instructional design, LMS, faculty development, but you weren't worried about enrollment management? You weren't worried worried about how may what program was going to right program to put in the market?
00:26:07
Speaker
I think a lot of things that we think, it's almost like build you were kind of like in the build it, they will come era, right? Right. We're going to put this stuff up. and And we'll get to me at another point, but I mean, I started teaching online in 2004. And so those connect, like, it's just interesting, like the things that were happening early 2004, early 2000s in online.
00:26:30
Speaker
And then what we know about online today is really just the way we manage it, right? Just night and day difference. Yeah. That's what I i mean, but you,
00:26:42
Speaker
Yeah, no, i think I think that's right. I mean, you know, I never had, with the exception of maybe when I worked as the vice president of academic affairs for Tarrant County College's Connect campus, which was like a newer campus.
00:26:58
Speaker
It got started around 2014 then I joined in 2015. Yeah.
00:27:04
Speaker
um where basically like that that system's online learning was centralized under us, which of course caused some concerns, right? Because the other campuses, even though we were one system or one college, right? It's like, you're taking our you're taking our courses and programs, right? that was next time you text storie Yeah, that's right. That's in the Fort Worth area. Yeah. We had that in late 2000, I mean, 2010, 11, when I was at the community college and
00:27:35
Speaker
In Florida, we were running the same thing because we were branch campuses or multi-campus. was the same thing. all your um how do we How do we account for FTE on our other campuses? Because you're doing um online in one place.
00:27:48
Speaker
Yeah. i was Again, that's that's probably another, that could be a podcast in and of itself. Oh, 100%. Yeah. But for me, I think that's right, Kevin. I think yeah but you know but for me i think i think that's right kevin i think I went through a process initially where, yeah, let's just, let's just try some things with the hope that it's going to, to really
Motivation and Leadership in Higher Education
00:28:07
Speaker
take off. I mean, the Northwestern um ah state example in particular was, I think that's probably the best example of that because it was so new. And, um and maybe again, i mean, maybe we can have Patrice Moulton, who was the chair at that time, who was my boss. We can,
00:28:24
Speaker
interview her and and talk with her a bit about like what led her to actually like do this, but she's a great go-getter. So, um you know, it's not that surprising that she, she went in that direction. She's she's amazing.
00:28:37
Speaker
But I am, but I feel like some of the other positions I held online learning was definitely more like in place, right? Like Baker College had already established online learning. So they were just looking to grow some of their leadership team. Same thing at Tarrant County College, right? Online learning existed across the branch campuses.
00:28:59
Speaker
but um But to your point, Kevin, I think the fuller role will still... In terms of how Opsia thinks about it, the chief out online learning officer role was still not something that I really held, I think, in any of my positions because admissions or marketing or all of you know those types of more like business ops decisions were handled by other people.
00:29:29
Speaker
um even when i was at Even when I was at Northwest, I'm sorry, not Northwest, or Northampton Community College, um I couldn't actually create my own programs, right? The programs belong to faculty and deans and they decided, which which I had no problem with because I was like, hey, you guys are the experts, right?
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah. Now, if you're trying to create a psych program, I might have some questions for you because I've been there and done that. But early childhood, criminal justice, like you guys come to, you know, I'll definitely support that work, but you guys can do that part of it. And so in some ways, I was actually never really like, hey, let me put it all, like put everything under me because I felt like I was still trying to also build, like mind the store that we had, but also bring in, like at Northampton, we didn't have online tutoring.
00:30:22
Speaker
No online proctoring. I remember they told us, they told students, which breaks the entire model, hey, um if you need proctoring, you either need to come to campus or fill out a form and identify a proctor at your job or at your at your church or synagogue. And I'm like, how do you even like manage that?
00:30:42
Speaker
Right? Like, um That's insane. Like we we need we we need to leverage technology more to facilitate ah truly 100% online learning experience.
00:30:54
Speaker
And that experience is broken if certain aspects of of that of that lifestyle requires people to to have some type of physical presence, either with the campus or with you know with proxies um in in your neighborhood.
00:31:13
Speaker
Wow. So one of the questions we want, and we're all three of us are going to get to this, but I think this is, it's it's a good one. And I'm excited to hear your feedback and insights on it, but what compels you to still be in higher ed?
00:31:31
Speaker
And you've had, we can keep going. You've, because I've known you quite a while. i know you have a very interesting path in around, and I'm not gonna say outside of higher ed, but adjacent to higher ed and ed tech and other places. But yeah What compels you to still be in this space, especially when we're at a point right now when higher ed is having ah as many headwinds as it's had in the last century? And that includes depression and everything under the hood um So that's that's one question we certainly want to get to and and let it drive us along to other interesting parts of your your path.
00:32:06
Speaker
Yeah, that that's going to be a great question. You know, it'll be interesting to kind of compare notes when we when we get to that point in the podcast here. But I i mean, I think because, and again, I think this is a common theme across all of us. And I think that's why we've been colleagues for so long.
00:32:27
Speaker
We can see the potential. of of academic innovation, whether it's pedagogical, like 100% pedagogical, 100% technology, like we we we know that we can do certain things in a very cool way that can benefit people.
00:32:47
Speaker
know I feel like in higher ed, even though it it requires a lot of like time and effort and um culture change, which can, as we know, takes a lot of investment in terms of building relationships, building trust as a function of those relationships.
00:33:08
Speaker
Like, I think that's what keeps me going because I can, I have worked at schools where we have been able to do some innovative things. And so that motivates me. um I almost feel like, you know, we can relate this back to what I mentioned earlier about different learning, um ah you know, engagements with rats and Skinner boxes, right? Like,
00:33:30
Speaker
You know there's, you know, in learning and motivation courses in psychology, they teach you about like, what is it called? The partial reinforcement effect, where if you if you do get reinforcement continuously, right, you habituate to it and and you stop hitting, the rats stop hitting the the lever to get food because it's like, ah I can get it anytime I want.
00:33:52
Speaker
But I think in higher ed, because we've been able to actually like you know influence the matrix in whatever ways, right we can mend the spoon a little bit, do some things.
00:34:03
Speaker
I think that keeps us motivated to continue to explore, well, what else can we do? and And i think we're I'm also just driven like we all are about the fact that higher ed definitely needs some innovation.
00:34:20
Speaker
20th century higher ed um is way behind. like I feel like we're still stuck in a 20th century model or even a later model because of the all the the bureaucracies and things were very institution focused instead of being learner focused, as we all know.
00:34:39
Speaker
So my my my hope is now that I have kids and you you you guys do too, like I want a part of my legacy to be the fact that I tried in whatever ways ah to influence higher ed to be better, right?
00:34:55
Speaker
And not just to be better for me, because it's not about me. It's about, it is about our kids, right? Because they they shouldn't have to be in an outdated model, especially at the price points that many campuses are unfortunately charging.
00:35:10
Speaker
That's well said, for sure.
00:35:15
Speaker
And I'm just a glutton for punishment, I guess. I don't
00:35:20
Speaker
Aren't we all? i was yeah I think you can make that argument for just staying in higher ed in general or being connected to higher ed. yeah You've got to go with the ebb and flows, right? Like, I mean, you if you if you get stuck thinking that this is the only solution or this is the only way that things are going to be done, you're just going to run into other reasons why it can't be done that way.
00:35:44
Speaker
and you'll just get frustrated and, yeah you know, decide you're going to not do it anymore or go a different way.
00:35:54
Speaker
Yeah, and that's why it's great to have colleagues like you all, right, and others in our network who are doing great things. So you're always reminded, hey, right You might get beat down. Some people might tell you, no, we can't do it this way because it's been done this way forever or some other types of nonsense. But when you can see and hear firsthand of how the matrix, the higher ed matrix is being shaped and reformed in new ways that benefit the learner, that that really kind of keeps my batteries charged up.
00:36:26
Speaker
so So i think everyone should listening should know that this is an early episode of of our podcast, going hear a lot of nineties pop culture references. So whether it's the matrix or John Hughes films, that's eighties.
00:36:39
Speaker
So just get ready. Yeah. We got, we'll have links in the production though. So if you don't know what the matrix is, we'll, we'll, we'll have links. lakeman we create modify list We'll do whatever, whatever it takes. Rotten tomatoes. We'll get, you know, links to movies, tell you where you can stream it.
00:36:56
Speaker
um So, yeah, I think one of the benefits of having, been higher ed not when the, I mean, the, the, what I call the visual internet Netscape, uh, I know it wasn't the first graphically based browser, but that came out when I was a sophomore in college. So that was the fall of 1995. So,
00:37:19
Speaker
but one of the benefits of benefits being in higher ed, essentially when web 2.0 came in the early two thousands, late, late nineties is that, and it was so unstructured and so you had to be a tinker, you had to be in there is that you learned how to get to yes.
00:37:36
Speaker
And not ah just for the sake of winning ah debates or arguments or trying to get faculty or an institution to do what I wanted to do, but to make a compelling case that compelled, let's say a program or a faculty member teaching a course that you can you can do this here are the benefits. I think it there's a huge advantage of having been back in that wild, know, like the bad old days because There were no, um there was nothing guiding you and you had to you had to build up credibility. And some, you know, I've plenty experiences then and even recently getting swatted on the nose or batted down for being too ambitious or being too, and trying to be too innovative or whatever. So, um but i I wouldn't trade that experience for anything because it really taught me how to,
00:38:22
Speaker
move between these what are essentially cultures inside of higher ed, the culture of faculty, the culture of academia, the culture of IT, and the tech space of higher ed, the administrative cultures, all those levels, the staff culture. mean, even beyond IT, t there's ah an entire different cultures in the staff world. You have to be able to negotiate them other otherwise.
00:38:42
Speaker
You don't go anywhere. You just run around in circles and get frustrated. And then I've seen people leave higher ed over
Career Transitions and Flexibility in Higher Ed
00:38:48
Speaker
that. They're like, this you know, structural designers and others like, oh, this is too frustrating. And then they're, you know, they go out into the the private sector and whatever, doing instructional design for corporations.
00:38:58
Speaker
Yeah. No, I think i think that's, again, spot on. I mean, i feel like... you know, in in my career and maybe you all feel the same, like it's been great to have that opportunity to tinker to write, build those relationships.
00:39:15
Speaker
But then you don't get a chance to do that without also having the right leaders. Right. They kind of give you you, know, give you some slack. Right. Give you the ability to to try some things. um And so I feel like i at a couple of the institutions I've worked for in particular, like Northampton, you know, having a supervisor like Mike McGovern, who is the VP for academic affairs while I was there.
00:39:40
Speaker
mean, Mike was great in terms of saying, hey, you know, I'm going to allow you to do these things, but on a weekly basis, kind of keep me posted. um Let's unpack any issues that you're having.
00:39:52
Speaker
But just him offering that to me meant the world, right? Because that really opened up opportunities. And not to say that it was um that I was bulletproof, right? Like i I still, you know, took my licks or, you know, had to deal with...
00:40:08
Speaker
you know faculty coming in not happy with let's say not getting enough online sections because you know uh there and at other institutions uh many faculty were like signing up for way too many online sections right and which was then causing them to neglect at times some of the students in those sections because they were teaching face-to-face and online um um And that happens.
00:40:33
Speaker
I think that happens regardless of the modalities sometimes, because, again, we don't pay our faculty enough or well enough. And so many oversubscribe instead of saying, hey, no, I need to stick with you know X number of hours that I can comfort more comfortably cover.
00:40:51
Speaker
um And so, yeah, I just feel very fortunate. and and learned a lot. you know i've I've also been a part, higher ed is swatted back in very unexpected ways. I've been a part of like Reorgs.
00:41:07
Speaker
um I won't name the institution, but I worked for an institution where I was hired by the provost. And a few months later, the incoming president decided to decentralize online learning back to many of the branch campuses.
00:41:22
Speaker
And so All of a sudden, when the music stopped, I was i didn't have a seat anymore at the table. The flip side of that was, you know, I was able to get some severance and my family and I went to Disney World. So, you know, there's that.
00:41:37
Speaker
but But, you know, higher ed can be a mean mother, you know, excuse my French, but, you know, it can be challenging. in ways that you're not actively prepared for.
00:41:49
Speaker
which and And I think there's a lot of people that don't, sorry, Kelvin, I think there's a lot of people that don't realize that, right? Like, I think there's a lot of people that think, oh, once you're in higher ed, you always have a job and nothing will ever change. and And maybe at some institutions that maybe that is the case, right? Or maybe some roles. And that's the interesting thing, right? But Baylor just went through that. Baylor, mean, just recently, you know, there's folks at Baylor that don't have a job right now.
00:42:15
Speaker
Yeah, and being an administrator, right, you don't have you don't always have that... ah fallback of of being a tenure, going back to a tenure track role. Like I, once I, once I made that leap to more administrative roles, that was devoid of anything.
00:42:32
Speaker
Like I didn't have like a tenure track position to go back to. So that's where it it was tough, you know, in a couple, ah couple instances. And of course I still learned, I still learned a lot. So I got a chance to work with people at a couple of these positions where I was there for only a hot minute.
00:42:49
Speaker
But, um but that yeah, that is something to just be mindful of. It's like um just making sure as you're thinking about, you know, your next role, just...
00:43:01
Speaker
you know, making sure that you continue to read as many different tea leaves about where your position, and how it's valued. Um, definitely be, ah be at the table when those, uh, strategic, uh, plans come out so that hopefully there's, uh, there's some dots that connect back to that strategic plan such that then your position is more legitimized longer term.
00:43:24
Speaker
Um, but But again, we all serve at the pleasure of someone. And if that someone doesn't want you at the table anymore, it's it's not much you can really do. Yeah. And even, I mean, you know, there's the nicks and there's positives of all ah of all those things. Right. But I think also, and think it's one the reasons why the three of us are together and kind of having this opportunity to to do this podcast and thinking about how do people get stuff done?
00:43:50
Speaker
Because we've all seen this from a different perspective inside and outside. and have experienced it in different ways that it does help you kind of just step back a little bit and just go, you know, there's maybe two or three ways to think about looking at this. But I do want to touch real quick, just because you mentioned the tenure track.
00:44:12
Speaker
Do you regret not doing enough to get tenure? Like if you think about your career now where you are, yeah like your career, do you regret that you didn't take the time to finish a tenure track role, have tenure, so that later as you go into these administrative role, and granted, you have no idea where you're going to go, but if you think back, would you have said, I really wish I would have stuck it out and done that tenure track role to have that?
00:44:42
Speaker
Or for you, did you think it does it really make a difference? No, that's a great question. It's in large part because I don't think I have been asked the question and I don't know if I've actually reflected on on that decision to leave academia in terms of being a professor behind. I think for me, it felt right.
00:45:07
Speaker
um You know, starting back at north ah Northwestern State forward, um I think probably one of the things if I could go back and do differently, because I have been able to to do some like part-time consulting kind of in between jobs as I've been looking like I wish maybe I had done a bit more of that even earlier on just so that I had that experience now granted you know when you're when you're already working 40 50 80 hours a week you don't always have time for side gigs you know um
00:45:46
Speaker
even though sometimes I'm like, man, maybe I should get an Uber, you know, just to to have some money to give to my kids when I asked for gas money or whatever. Although they have electric cars, so gas money is irrelevant. It's more about other things they need.
00:46:00
Speaker
But you know i mean? Like it's it's hard to find that extra time. But I think i think now as I'm getting older, um it would have been great to maybe just have, you know, maybe if it explore even more of those opportunities such that, you know,
00:46:16
Speaker
within my network, I would have maybe had an easier way of finding um some part-time work in between. Because I think when when my job went away at the one school that i referenced earlier where I was hired and then fired. And even the HR director was like, why didn't we even hire you? Like, I feel so bad this happened.
00:46:37
Speaker
It would have been great to have had that consultancy base ah to fall back on. But I don't miss the teaching, you know, having a tenure track role because I felt like that wasn't the right fit for me.
00:46:51
Speaker
And I feel like the the administrative roles I've held ever since north north and Northwestern really, i think, solidifies that. I think you're going to find that amongst the three of us is that one of the reasons we're in the spaces we are in this intersection of higher education and technology is that ah and maybe we pushed back on that notion of faculty path is the path. If you want to be in higher ed, you you want to be faculty. so
00:47:21
Speaker
When we get to my episode, you know i didn't even I was never in a tenure-track role because i never my initial PhD, I never finished. i stopped at the master's because I really saw that I don't think I want to go this path. I see a much more interesting one in this intersection of, at that time, history and humanities with technology in the context of higher ed. so I think we're going to find that We're old-ish, and yet we've been in this space since its infancy in the late, for you two, early to mid-90s, for me, it right around 2000, 99, 2000. So I think we're gonna find that a lot. And to me, there's lessons we had there about pulling strings, even when it's just a teeny little spider web, you see it and you start pulling that thread.
00:48:09
Speaker
And not that it always works out, but it makes for an interesting path. Yeah, I totally agree with that. and And even with, you know, with your kids, my kids, all of our kids, like, especially now that I'm involved within the University of Texas system with micro-credentials and like, for me, I want to be able to just help higher ed and maybe starting with my own kids, help them realize that there are multiple paths, right? And you you may not go to college right away. Maybe it starts with a job or and apprenticeship or, you know, inship whatever, but we have to kind of, we have to kind of get outside of our bias, right? That college is the only pathway or um being a professor, right? Is the ultimate opportunity because you can have a job for life, right? Whatever that means. um
00:48:59
Speaker
Or and even being an administrator, right? like Like we have to kind of just, through like what are the the spaces in between the paths that we may want to explore and and and figure out, okay, what are the new paths that we can kind of cobble together, different experiences. And so maybe the path is really ah tapestry of different things, right? Your full-time job, right? Ongoing professional development, um doing volunteer work,
00:49:30
Speaker
you know, or doing a consultancy um if you have the approvals and the time to do it. So maybe it's that that we need to make sure just to help us all be well-rounded and much more for the 21st century world of work, you know?
Innovative Practices and Future Aspirations
00:49:46
Speaker
I agree with you. You know, it's interesting. We just came back from the FCEA conference and there was someone there that, and you don't hear it a lot, I don't think, from a lot of administrators where, you know, i i haveve i've been at fight you know this person i've been ah I've been at five different institutions in like 10 years or whatever.
00:50:04
Speaker
right and so And I've even shared this with other people that I've mentored that are thinking about how do I how do i how do i evolve in my role or what do I do within my role? And and sometimes my response is, have you looked at doing it outside of the current institution that you're at? like Have you thought about going somewhere else to gain some other knowledge and to get some more information to to broaden your your your depth and reach of who you are.
00:50:30
Speaker
And I think sometimes we just get locked into this that, because again, i think higher ed puts that perception of you're gonna work here for 40 years and you're going to retire and you're goingnna and life will be great.
00:50:44
Speaker
Maybe, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with going to multiple institutions and and you know having those interactions with other people. and And especially like I think about all the places where you've gone, like you've, you've gone from, from large city, right? Detroit to, to Delaware and then to the South and then around and then back to the South. I mean, we call Texas its own country if we want to, but, you know, you know, and so you're not only are you getting the experiences of the different places that you, that you have been at, but you're also getting different perspectives because of the regions that you've been in.
00:51:26
Speaker
And the ah the people that are that live in those regions, to your point, the community, volunteering the community, part of the community, like all of that is kind of, it shapes the way that we also think about things. And I think sometimes we can get very much blinders on and we only can see what we deal with on a day-to-day basis and don't realize that there's other things going on. And there's and for some people, there may be better opportunities somewhere else if if they'd be willing to take that leap of faith and go do that right i'm finding higher ed and so i'm i turned 50 this year congratulations secrets um but you know so i've been in higher ed a good 25 years and now as a staff member and with stints in graduate school and in some adjacent to higher ed but i'm noticing a lot of ways you have to move you have to step out to move up if you want you the
00:52:20
Speaker
the steady progression up through an organization is not, and not that it was always the case that that would happen that you would like the 40 year career at one institution, you just move your way up. But um internal promotion is not always, it's not always easy and it's not always clear. And I, what I would tell myself looking back is don't wait.
00:52:40
Speaker
Don't know when someone's like, Oh, just, you know, it's going to happen. Just wait, just wait. When someone says just wait in an institution or in whatever, in any job you have, that means be be wary. Cause it often means I don't want you to move up because of whatever reason I'm intimidated by you. I don't like you.
00:53:01
Speaker
I think you're better where you are from their positionality. you know, you're a good worker and I don't want you to move up cause then I'll get you good work. And my, in that situation, niche anymore. So, um yeah.
00:53:13
Speaker
But I do think it's, it's, it's a different conversation from an administration standpoint from, or from a faculty standpoint. oh I mean, I think a faculty member, it's easier to stay somewhere for 40 years because you can do that, you know, five to 10 year tenure track role, and then you can become a department chair and then you you become an associate dean and then you become a dean and then you become a VPAA. Like, like there's a path, like there's a way for you to kind of or you can just stay at faculty, but there's a way for you kind of do that.
00:53:41
Speaker
I think when you step into administration, you're exactly right, Fritz, that it's hard to step into an assistant director of admissions and think someday you're gonna be the the vice president of enrollment at the same institution, right?
00:53:59
Speaker
Like that's that trajectory really isn't there. The first time I really started seeing that was in the mid 2000s. I spent about a year and change and some before that in a consultancy space, but working for a small company here in the Twin Cities. is One of the reasons we came up here in 2005, a company called the Lawler Group that did marketing and communications for mostly smaller private institutions.
00:54:20
Speaker
And I worked with the John Lawler. He was a great mentor. He's still a great friend. He lives pretty close to me. He's retired now. um and ah I remember seeing admissions people that we worked with at different institutions, they were moving all over place. They were on the move. you know This person was ah an assistant director and then all a they're down at University of the South and then up here and over there. I'm like, whoa, this this doesn't look like what I'm used to seeing in higher ed, which is a steady, and i think I was looking at it through faculty lens of tenure track to tenure. So you're associate, then you go for full and then maybe you like you said, you become a chair and an associate dean or a dean or whatever.
00:54:57
Speaker
So um I remember back then thinking, wow, the missions people are all on the move. Yeah, moving in and all that kind of stuff. So Yeah, it's it's interesting now to think about this, and I'm i'm glad that you both of you are helping me kind of process this a bit. We're here for you, Kelvin. We're here for you. We can be your counselors.
00:55:19
Speaker
As much as we despise psychology, we're going to broadcast to everyone who wants to listen. now this This is excellent because it's it's like a catharsis. But then it's also like, I feel like in some ways, this is like we're unpacking just one small aspect of a dirty little secret in higher ed, right? That you have to follow these prescribed paths.
00:55:45
Speaker
um and And maybe the third little secret too is that higher ed needs to do a better job of succession planning. Like it needs to figure out what these new paths are and to really kind of help people navigate that and support them.
00:56:00
Speaker
um perhaps more and not be shocked when someone is like, you know, reached a point where they're like, they want to do something differently. And they're, they're told, no, your experience doesn't match the next plateau. Like we need to be supportive of folks, right? Like even if they, even if that means they need to leave, we need to find a way to, to to assist. Right. And maybe ah part of that is just ongoing continuing education opportunities and,
00:56:29
Speaker
professional development opportunities and and to celebrate when someone does leave. you know We don't always do that. We're like you know kind of going through the five stages of grief or whatever, but but we need to find a way that I think to be more supportive and to also maybe think about like how can we um develop, let's say a colo, for example, right chief online learning officer role.
00:56:52
Speaker
Maybe there are some newer roles that need to have a seat at the larger tables. Now more than ever, ah schools are really ah trying to figure out, are they going to be around for the next 10 or 20 years? Because students, ah the you know, enrollments are much can be much more fluid.
00:57:12
Speaker
especially in in places like Pennsylvania, for example, yeah where we're, you know, and Kevin, you you can teach tons of graduate courses on this, right, about the about demographic cliffs and things like that. So...
00:57:27
Speaker
so I think we need to have an episode where we, I do have another question for you, Calvin, but we need to have an episode that's best and worst advice in hiring you've ever gotten. Like the snippets. Someone told me without naming names, of course, but we could have a call-in show for that one.
00:57:41
Speaker
Yeah, ah that'll probably be a better call-in show. yeah Yeah. It would be like ah like car talk. So well what's we're talking about all this professional development and reflecting back looking forward. So what's what's next?
00:57:56
Speaker
Well, that's a great question. I mean, um you know, my hope is that I can kind of dis just in general, regardless of what happens um in terms of positions and things like that, I still want to be very active in the academic innovation space. And great question.
00:58:17
Speaker
And I think there's just so much more to do. um um My hope is that I can continue to also, now that I'm doing more stuff around like workforce development and work-based learning, i want to do, I think, more of that work in particular.
00:58:34
Speaker
i think in part because have gone through different job moves for different reasons. i've lost like I've lost the opportunity to have a job a couple of times, as I referenced before.
00:58:47
Speaker
So I've been unemployed, so I know what that' that's like, and it sucks. and It does. And so I would love to be able to kind of contribute to any work that will help better prepare college students or just people in general, people even outside of college, to be ready for whatever this new world of work is gonna become, especially with AI um um kind of disrupting at times things even more in more dangerous ways, I think.
00:59:19
Speaker
But potential, I think there's still opportunity with AI, but I think there's a lot we don't know. And so we need to find a way, I think, to really just help help our our students be prepared for for it and and how it will be how their lives will be impacted by it.
00:59:38
Speaker
Yeah, AI, I think, is is definitely going to be the next five-year change to higher ed. I mean, I think it's having impacts now, right? But I think right i think we're really going to see it in about five years. was interesting, Georgia Tech did a presentation at the conference,
00:59:56
Speaker
um and they're integrating AI into the LMS. And, you know, Georgia Tech, I mean, predominantly, I mean, their programs are run more MOOC-ish than they are traditional LMS, right? So they're integrating this AI that basically when you do your introduction of who you are in the class, this AI will go through and find people with similarities or geographically where they're located or whatever.
01:00:24
Speaker
And they'll send an email or a text to both students and say, hey, Fritz, you might be interested in connecting with Kelvin because Kelvin is also interested in mountain biking and he lives in New York.
01:00:37
Speaker
I just think that's amazing, right? Like from a community, like ah commute like to build community. But it's also Georgia Tech and how far off is that for everybody else? Mm-hmm.
01:00:48
Speaker
Right. Like they're building this. And finding a way to protect everyone's privacy, like giving people the opportunity to talk to it. Because you can also have that creepy vibe, like, wait a minute, like, why are you like, why are you in my DMs all of a sudden?
01:01:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Get out of my private life. Yeah. I'll make my own friends. Thanks, Hal. exactly What are you doing, Kelvin?
01:01:14
Speaker
Yeah, like, wait, what? This is the late 60s. Robin, are you busy tonight? 90s or
01:01:22
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, my God. but But yeah, I think there's lots of opportunities out there. And so that's those are the things I want to be doing and want to help my kids find the right path for them.
01:01:34
Speaker
That's affordable. that and selfishly, I don't want my wife and I, Courtney and i ah to take out a second mortgage. So can find a way for them, for my kids to go through college, mostly debt free. That's what I want to prescribe and give them different options.
01:01:51
Speaker
ah so that they can make the most informed decisions for
Personal Interests and Podcast Goals
01:01:54
Speaker
themselves. So think that's also what's going to be next, especially since yeah our daughter Kate is 15. And so college is just around the corner and our son Curtis is 11. So yeah,
01:02:06
Speaker
Hopefully we'll have a template of things that we can pass down to him after we set up some things for Kate. Well, so Kevin is our, he's our, he's our guide. He's got grown, like, I'll say this because it's our podcast and we can bleep it out. He's got grown ass kids. I have grown ass kids.
01:02:22
Speaker
I have a grandchild. Oh goodness. I have grown ass children and a grandbaby. Wow. Well, I got married when I was, oh, geez. i was Yeah, I was older when I got married. I was 32, and then Kate wasn't born until I was 40. Yeah, we were much earlier.
01:02:41
Speaker
yeah, yeah. yeah I'm right in the middle. Got married at 30, first baby at 30. Just about to turn 33. Yeah.
01:02:52
Speaker
yeah But was what else is there to tell about you, Calvin? What what should people know? if If we're listening, people listening to the podcast... and getting to know us, what are some other ground truth? Outside of work stuff, what should people know? What do you like to do? What do you do? What like to do?
01:03:10
Speaker
Well, you know, I mentioned a lot of sci-fi references that some people are going to be like, what? Like, what is he talking about? So big sci-fi fan, like to travel, um trying to, you know, given the fact that I have younger kids, trying to stay in shape with walking and and running. I've done some half marathons, ah two full marathons. um but What shoes do you wear, Kelvin?
01:03:38
Speaker
Because maybe we'll get someone to watch this as a shoe. ah Yeah, I'm a Brooks guy. Brooks goes. Yes. There you go. If you're listening, they have a runner, active runner,
01:03:52
Speaker
That'll make my good friend Kara Goucher very happy. She's an Olympian who, she's, she works with Brooks. So nice will I'll drop that to her and she'll be very happy to hear that.
01:04:04
Speaker
Yes. And you know, if anyone's from working for Brooks, click and subscribe, you know, it's right screenshot like button but yeah those are the things like definitely like to travel with, with family and, and also just collaborating with folks and,
01:04:19
Speaker
If anyone wants to connect with me, my LinkedIn information will be available. But um but yeah, i'm just I'm just excited that we're doing this podcast together. It's been a dream of mine to get together with cool colleagues like like yourselves. And so looking forward to our upcoming intros for both of you and our upcoming guests down the road when we have them.
01:04:44
Speaker
Indeed. Yeah, it's going to be good It's going to good. Well, with that, i think this might be a good time to call it an episode. um We thank everyone for listening and we'll see you next time.