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GSD Episode 10: Dr. Erin Crisp
44 Plays2 months ago
Dr. Erin Crisp from the University of Tennessee System joins us to describe her efforts to support improving educator pipelines in her state through the use of apprenticeships that benefit educator paraprofessionals. This discussion highlights the nuances of working within the learn-work ecosystem.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:21
Speaker
All right, welcome everyone to the Getting Stuff Done podcast. I'm Kelvin and I'm here with Kevin and Fritz. And I'm just really excited about another new episode for you. We have our special guest, aaron Dr. Erin Crisp, who Erin and I have been colleagues for several years. I'm just really excited to have her on the podcast.
00:00:48
Speaker
um And what I like to do is just provide just a a short overview of some of the cool work that Erin is doing, and then we'll get right into it for today. um So Dr. Ann Criss is a state and national leader in learner success and workforce pathways.
00:01:06
Speaker
She currently serves as the assistant vice president for learner success and workforce pathways at the University of Tennessee system, where she's helping reshape how students move from education into meaningful careers.
00:01:18
Speaker
Before this role, she led Tennessee's Grow With Your Own Center, a major statewide effort to strengthen teacher pipelines through innovative apprenticeship pathways. Her work has supported thousands of aspiring educators and helped Tennessee become a national model for addressing teacher shortage shortages.
00:01:38
Speaker
Erin is also a thoughtful voice on the future of learning. She writes frequently about topics like general education in the age of ai and her insights have appeared in places like the Faculty Focus, the Chronicle of Higher Education, and also the Atlantic.
00:01:55
Speaker
She brings a rare blend of big picture vision and on the ground experience. And I'm again, just really excited to have Erin join us. So Erin, Dr. Chris, welcome.
00:02:07
Speaker
Thank you Such a pleasure to be here. And yes, I just really appreciate the invitation and the chance to meet new people and have a great conversation today. Great.
Erin's Early Life and Education Journey
00:02:17
Speaker
Well, we we always like to start off with our with our special guests, such as yourself, by just kind of asking about your journey, right? So in Tennessee, you are helping several people, again, with their transitions from education to the world of work.
00:02:36
Speaker
And so we would be remiss if we did not ask you about your own journey and how did you get to be... you know, in the world that you are and just all the great work that you're doing. So maybe we can start there.
00:02:51
Speaker
Sure, absolutely. So I was born in Eastern Canada, actually. So I'm Canadian. i grew up in New Brunswick, Canada. Not a lot of people have ever been there, but if you have, you you know how beautiful it is. And I realized how much I took it for granted when i lived there for 18 years and did all of my, you know, primary, secondary education schooling in Canada. And then I knew that I wanted to move away from home, away, away to go to college because it's a very agricultural community. um Being a farmer's wife was not like tops on my list of career aspirations.
Transition to Teaching and Technology
00:03:24
Speaker
So I knew I wanted my own career and i wanted to see the world and have an adventure. And I had an uncle who was a faculty member and leader at a university in Indiana. And I thought, Indiana, that sounds far. I'm going to do that. and had never been to campus before, had never visited, had never been to the state um and just enrolled and applied and got in. And my mom dropped me off in this unknown place that, you know, I'd never been to before.
00:03:55
Speaker
um she was a single mom and and she and raised me. And so that was an adventure in itself, at her sending me to college. um But it it was ah a great experience and really set me on ah a solid trajectory for you know the rest of my career. So I started as a K-12 English teacher. I was a middle and high school teacher for almost a decade. Met my spouse while I was in college and we raised three very different young men who are now 23, 21, and 20. And so I was teaching school, teaching high school, raising young kids, and
00:04:36
Speaker
Just loved education. i loved curriculum development. That was my favorite part of being a teacher. I redesigned my curriculum every summer because I always thought of ways that I could make it better. Technology, you know, blogs and wiki space were just coming online when I was Teaching K-12 and all these new ed tech tools were entering the kind of availability of of public K-12 teachers, smart boards and Promethean boards. And I loved all of it. And I loved redesigning my curriculum to incorporate all of these new instructional technology tools.
00:05:09
Speaker
um So I did a little bit of investigating about what could a master's and doctorate degree look like and learned that there are people called instructional designers and this is what they do. They get to just focus on designing the instruction and the curriculum and and good, solid, evidence-based incorporation of technology tools that really impact learning. um And they don't do it just do it in K-12, they do it in higher ed, they do it in industry. Large corporations have instructional designers. and chief learning officers. The military is really where instructional design started.
00:05:42
Speaker
And so I learned about this whole field and just became fascinated with it and then Did my master's and then my doctorate at Indiana University and just had a great experience there and I actually researched. Adult learners who were studying online to learn more about what are the most impactful elements of an adult online learners educational experience, so I did an analysis of 300 online learners and associates bachelor's master's degrees.
00:06:13
Speaker
to look at the aspects of their online learning journey that was most impactful to their achievement and learned that feedback is really the thing. If we were going to focus on anything in higher ed, it should be timely and relevant feedback that's individualized and personalized and content rich.
00:06:32
Speaker
and helps learners move forward to to accomplish the gaps that they have in their in
Role at University of Tennessee
00:06:37
Speaker
their learning. And so a lot of the rest of my career has been about designing instructional systems, whether that is at the granular level of designing a course with a faculty member who has traditionally taught face-to-face, and I'm sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with them and just like working through their curriculum and learning objectives and incorporating instructional technology tools, or like what I get to do now at the University Tennessee system level, where we're looking at a very large scale, you know, 30,000 foot view perspective on systems and and trying to create the kind of systems where faculty have support, deans have support, state agencies are funneling money into the right priorities. So it's been a journey, but a super fun one.
00:07:24
Speaker
No, that's that's great. i I love, you know, you and I you know recently had a conversation about your move to um to a new home. And so congratulations on your new home. and And with a new home comes lots of DIY projects, which I shy away from. You know, it's it's just a lot of work.
00:07:48
Speaker
But I love the fact that you kind of talk about, like, you know within your own courses, how you've really you really like to tinker, right, and and explore and try new things.
00:07:58
Speaker
um And so maybe you could tell us a little bit more, too, about like, I love the work that you've been doing also in Tennessee about, know,
00:08:12
Speaker
you know really helping educators, well, to to help people become educators and and and maybe you could talk a little bit more about that because I think that's also very interesting because you are now just, you know you've kind of tweaked your own courses as as a teacher, but now you're really trying to, more recently, you were really trying to like do something that's a bit challenging, right? Because you're you're also trying to find a way to coexist with you know education programs that have been around for years and years and years.
00:08:49
Speaker
um to help in some ways support them in terms of like trying to get more people in to be educators. So would love to to learn a little bit more about the tinkering that you've been doing around around that space because it's not easy.
00:09:05
Speaker
No, and you're right, coexist is the right word for it. um And I do love ecosystems. i I built a pond in my backyard last year. was one of the projects that Kelvin's referring to. And the whole reason I did it was because I wanted to learn more about the ecosystem. How can I create a pond that doesn't require an artificial filter or artificial chemicals? but just relies on fish and plants and the filtration system of of sand and rocks and all of the good bacteria that happens when you put all of that in the right order in the right places and you filter the water through. and I wanted to learn that and put it into practice at the same time. And I like the whole time I'm building it, digging this giant hole in my backyard. I'm thinking about ecosystems in
Apprenticeship Models and Educational Innovation
00:09:52
Speaker
education too. And how when I was a K-12 high school teacher, i had so many students who, I mean, I always say there were about 30% of my students. I taught about a hundred students every year. And there were about 30 of them every year who I knew they're going be just fine in college. They're college ready. They're reading, writing, and speaking at a college level.
00:10:12
Speaker
they're going to be able to step into whatever major that they desire to be a part of. And and they'll probably be fine given the right social and financial that's and familial structures around them. But there were a whole lot of my students, like 70% of my students who, um a small number of them, you know, 10 to 20% had some disabilities or some life circumstances that were going to make it pretty challenging for them to achieve college level work. And we definitely want to provide pathways for those folks to continue to succeed and grow after high school. But that leaves this like pretty large middle section of students who were kind of struggling to find their next steps. They either didn't have the confidence to pursue college right out of the gate. They had family responsibilities that meant that they felt they needed to to stay home and earn a wage and look after mom or dad or sister or brother or someone.
00:11:10
Speaker
They were academically not quite ready yet, often because of maturity, especially as a mom of boys. Sometimes it can take a little bit a little while, you know, post-18, for folks to mature to the level where they're going to be picture themselves as scholars and be able to study and read and write at a level that is expected in college. And that just takes time And it especially takes time in an environment that is providing those kinds of readiness structures.
00:11:39
Speaker
So I spent a lot of time thinking about like, what is the ecosystem when we think about our our big systems of education in a state, K-12, post-secondary, public higher ed system like I'm a part of, especially land grant universities who say that their mission is to serve like all Tennesseans.
00:11:57
Speaker
what part of our system is built to address that kind of messy middle. And I think part of what I learned in our teacher apprenticeship work is that it is the ideal model to address that messy middle of learners who they weren't quite quite ready for college when college came around.
00:12:17
Speaker
They found themselves in a school environment somehow. um So maybe they're a teaching assistant or a paraprofessional. Maybe they worked in the front office. Maybe they were a very involved parent teacher association member, but they found themselves in a school K-12 school environment and and really thriving there. They love the kids. They love the energy. They love the chaos. whatever it is about it, they thrive in the environment. That's kind of step one of what you want for a teacher. And and sometimes we don't even get that in traditional programs, right? We prepare traditional teachers. They go out into a classroom or a school and they realize this environment is not for me. This is, it is chaotic and loud and too much. And I need to, you know, find a different path. So to have folks who are already comfortable in the environment,
00:13:03
Speaker
And then to be able to provide a pathway for them where they can earn a living wage, work in a job that has benefits, work in a job that has the same schedule as their kids' schedule so they can, you know, be away from from their job to look after their kids in the afternoons and evenings so that childcare is not so much of a barrier. You know, you can just kind of go through the list of all the typical barriers of adult learners, for adult learners who have some college no degree. And the teacher apprenticeship model really kind of checks all the boxes. um
00:13:38
Speaker
Yes, the wages are minimal, but also they're not they don't have to pay for tuition or books or fees. ah Everything is paid for as it relates to earning that college degree that's required for teacher licensure. Yes, the wage is minimal, but within two years, they're going to double it when they they get licensed to become a teacher and they're on a full teacher salary they're going to double that teaching assistant wage they have you know the right social and cultural support um i always love telling this story i was on a call with ah a building principal and she had a number of teacher apprentices in her building and i was just asking her how's it going what are your challenges with your apprentices is there any way we can support how are the mentor teachers doing mentoring your apprentices
00:14:25
Speaker
How are the college courses going? What's your experience with our faculty members? Those kinds of things. And I noticed some kids in the back of her office. It was like May, right at the end of the school year. And there were just a couple of kids at the table behind her in her office. And we were wrapping up our call. The kids had been great. They were like coloring or whatever the whole time. And we were wrapping up our call and I was like, oh, that's so great. Your kids are in the office with you today. They've been such they've been so great during your meeting. Like they've just been so quiet back there, just coloring away. And she said, oh, those aren't my kids. And I said, well, like you, the students are out of the building. So whose kids are they? And she said, we have one of our apprentices is taking her final exam next door and she didn't have child care today. So I just told her to bring the kids in and I'd watch them in my office while she did her final exam for her coursework, like in the room right next to mine. And I said, you're providing wraparound services right there. Like when we ask, like, what wraparound services do you support?
00:15:23
Speaker
Folks tend to think about like very formal, you know, like, well, we don't provide mental health counseling and we don't provide tutoring and calculus. and But you do provide this supportive environment where teachers are helping teachers and there's a sense of belonging for those educators who are becoming educators and you're providing childcare for you know an apprentice who needs two hours to take an exam. So there's just a lot about that apprenticeship model that helps a typical adult working learner overcome the barriers that they that they face that often impact retention and completion and all those things.
00:16:02
Speaker
um This is really fascinating, Aaron. And my sense from stalking your linkedin profile is that your role is it sounds like it's still that but it's a it's a very it's a big scope workforce development support role and so one of the things we talk about in in in our podcast here is that um it's career paths career arcs which we've been talking about with you but it's there's To me, there's there's not, ah you know, going from an instructional design pathway um and now you're in this big workforce development space. I mean, we're all in this similar ageist. Some of us are older than others. So, you know, careers develop it.
00:16:48
Speaker
What... Was that an intentional thing? Like, I'm going to be an instructional designer for a while and get into the space. And now, ooh, I want to go to the workforce development space. or Or was it just like, Kelvin Kevin and I talk about a lot, like you saw this thread and you start pulling the thread and you know all a sudden it's it's turning into a big ball of yarn and maybe a sweater or a scarf or something. And here I am. Oh, I'm in workforce development. Now I'm an expert in this.
00:17:12
Speaker
So I'm wondering what were're what were some of the signs to you that, you know, did someone mentor you like, hey, I think you'd be a great fit in this? Or did you see it and just kind of push your way into it? Or, you know, how did you how did you get here? know you've talked about this, but like, what are some of those key gates that yeah and turning points?
00:17:30
Speaker
That's a really good question. um i would say... Jack of all trades, master of few. Like, I love to, I'm i'm a five on the Enneagram. don't know if you know Enneagram, but like, i I love to learn all sorts of different things. Like learning things is my favorite thing. And um so every time there's a new opportunity to learn something and to create a new skill set. Like that's going to be really interesting to me, first of all, too, because I'm just curious about all sorts of things. um But I do think that so like I'm one of those weird people probably who like I created ah a life mission statement when I was pretty young. And it has stuck. I mean, I think a lot of people probably would create a life mission statement when they're 20 or 22. And then like by the time they're 25, they're like, oh, that's no longer my vision for myself. But for whatever reason, mine has just kind of stuck all along the way. And so when I've been at these pivot points where I've had to make decisions or I've felt the need to make a decision about a career trajectory or a major pivot, um I kind of go back to that like central core mission statement for me, which is correcting the injustices of unrecognized talent.
00:18:44
Speaker
I know that for me, if I'm doing work that is correcting the injustices of unrecognized talent, among all people, all humans, whatever the age is, then that work is going to feel right to me.
00:18:57
Speaker
if If I'm looking at a a potential job or career path or education experience or whatever, and I can say, will I have opportunity to influence the extent to which folks have their talents recognized in meaningful ways that provide cultural, social, economic mobility for people to help people realize better things for themselves and their families.
00:19:19
Speaker
and And schools traditionally that I was a part of for the first 10 years are not great at that. I mean, we use a lot of testing to recognize talent. And if you happen to be one of those people who struggles with test taking, with reading, with writing,
00:19:35
Speaker
you're automatically in this place where your talents are going unrecognized. You have, certainly you have gifts. I saw them in my students all the time. I had students who were incredible persuaders and you thought, I thought like, you should be a lawyer or a judge or a politician or something, but they didn't have the test scores that would ever get them into that sort of role in life. And so what's the pathway for them? How can we create these systems and ecosystems where the lack of a skill with reading or writing or test taking doesn't prevent that person's incredible talent with persuasion or humor or charisma. I had some incredibly charismatic students too. I mean, you you went to school with these kids too. You know this. um
00:20:22
Speaker
it It prevents their talents from being recognized. So, When I had this opportunity in Tennessee with teacher apprenticeship, I thought, man, we are recognizing the teaching talents of a whole group of people who didn't have opportunity to go to college straight out of high school um and who have these talents of connecting with young people and teaching in a school system, which can be a very challenging place to be.
Expanding Apprenticeships to Other Fields
00:20:46
Speaker
um and And my work is helping them to you know get on a trajectory where that talent is recognized with a meaningful credential and a teaching license. Could we replicate that same thing in healthcare care and in manufacturing and in engineering and in all these other professions? And that's what drives me. Like I proposed my role. I said, like, we should be taking this teacher apprenticeship thing and...
00:21:10
Speaker
expanding it into all these other high need fields because you are correcting the injustices are of unrecognized talent with an apprenticeship degree pathway in these other industries. And thankfully, the leaders I work with at UT who are very wise and smart people, you know they saw the value of that too. And so we get to now figure out how to do that work.
00:21:34
Speaker
So I think it's it's it's really interesting, the whole apprenticeship process idea and how you're really being able to bring that back in especially at k-12 which does kind of make sense a little bit right like there are folks it depends on where they're at in starting but i guess my point is that's how higher it that's how education was 100 150 years ago was apprenticeship right before we had graduate programs you want to become a doctor, you went and you were an apprentice with a doctor and you learned how to become doctor. You lied with a lawyer or a judge. Yeah. You you weren't going just to to higher ed, so to speak, to get all these different types of things.
00:22:19
Speaker
And I think, i mean, to me, it's it's a and I don't know how far out this has gone beyond Tennessee and and and your influence that you're having on other states. And i know there's little pockets of different types of things, you know, here in Florida we do.
00:22:31
Speaker
not quite that but i mean we had pathways for individuals who career changers and they want to become a teacher right so you know i was a police officer for x number of years and now i want to be a teacher and what's that pathway to do that i'm curious just thinking about the teacher aspect how do you how do you evaluate those those students to be able to participate in the apprenticeship do they have to have an associate's degree like what's their level of education or are you literally taking somebody who I look at my mom and I never shared this story. This is one of the stories I was going share when I did the stuff about me.
00:23:11
Speaker
My mom went never went to college, went to college when I graduated with my first master's degree and became a elementary school teacher and never taught, but she has worked in a school. She is now 85 years old.
00:23:29
Speaker
And literally until this year, she's been a volunteer at a school, like doing exactly those types of things that you're talking about, right? Like you need someone who's just there to be able to. So anyway, that's a whole story just like, but I'm i'm really curious as to how did that, how does the apprenticeship work? Like how do you identify people and what's their qualifications to get in?
00:23:48
Speaker
Yeah, um it's a great question. So um Tennessee took a very large scale statewide approach to our teacher apprenticeship program. So when, um when the Grow Your Own Center, which is what I was hired to run to launch, when that was first ideated, initiated, it was before I was here, it was a partnership between the Tennessee Department of Ed and the University of Tennessee system, when they decided, hey, we're going to scale this model that had been in existence between one university and one school district. We want to scale that throughout the entire state.
00:24:23
Speaker
Well, we knew right away that in order to do that, to do it in that way, and I say all this because there are lots of states who are doing it in very different ways, and they're starting with very small approaches, very piloted, targeted approaches in very different spaces And that's and another way to go about it, not wrong, just different. But the way that Tennessee decided to to do it was to say, we want to scale this across an entire state. And in order to do that, we really had to create multiple entry points. um And so what that meant was, like I used to tell our team, we had a team of eight people to do this this work over the last three years. And I used to tell our team all the time, we want our districts to be able to say, if we have someone who we believe would make a great educator, we have a pathway for you, regardless of how much schooling you've had in the past, regardless of how old you are, regardless of what credentials. If we believe in you, that you have what it takes to be an educator, we have a pathway that we can put you on and and move you forward from wherever you're at. And so that's what we decided to design all my instructional design experience came in handy, um but multiple on ramps. So we had three primary on ramps into our teacher apprenticeship work. One is was direct from high school. And we did have some do have some high schools in Tennessee who are still doing a teacher apprenticeship direct from high school where high school students are working as tutors usually in elementary classrooms, doing a pre apprenticeship while they're in high school.
00:25:55
Speaker
But they are targeting all of the same competencies that they will eventually learn in their apprenticeship so that everything they're doing just aligns and moves right into the apprenticeship work after they graduate from high school. So then they move from being a high school graduate to being a paraprofessional for the district. They get their gen ed through a local community college, which in Tennessee is paid for. And then they move into their teacher apprenticeship coursework and their teacher apprenticeship competency work through, you know, the registered apprenticeship piece. And in three years, usually post high school, they are a licensed educator with no debt.
00:26:33
Speaker
So that's an on-ramp. We also have an on-ramp for folks who have an associate's degree in really anything, but but usually it's an associate's degree in gen ed or in teaching. And then we have another on-ramp for people who have a bachelor's degree in anything or or in between too. I mean, at any of those points too, if you have like, we had people who have like 70 credit hours or 80 credit hours. They were just real close to a bachelor's degree, but never quite got there. Like we'll take them too.
00:27:01
Speaker
But then we have really special post-baccalaureate licensure only pathways for people who have a bachelor's degree in anything. They want to become a teacher, but they don't need a master's, don't really want a master's at this point. It's just a licensure only one year post baccalaureate pathway, which is actually very inexpensive and very efficient. We can get them through that pretty quickly with that on the job learning experience that they're getting at the same time.
Success and Challenges of Apprenticeship Programs
00:27:30
Speaker
So we designed all those three on ramps so that wherever people were at in their journey, there would be a place for them. That's awesome. Yeah. how is So how's it going? I mean, how many years into this three is the initiative and, and you know, how's it going?
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah. um Well, it was a three-year grant funded project, so it's over now technically, but it went really, really well. I mean, we had really strong success metrics. We had, i think one of the things folks are most proud of is most of our, so we had 95 school district partners in total overall. which when you talk to apprenticeship folks, registered apprenticeships, each one of those would be considered an employer partner. Each one of those school districts is an employer that we had to register as an employer for the apprenticeship. And um we had 92 percent
00:28:25
Speaker
risk success retention rate for folks in the program so by the end of the three years they were either still enrolled or they had completed their pathway which if you look at metrics around adult online learners or adult learners in general like 92 is pretty much double what would i mean was there a distribution amongst say people who came in with some college no credential versus the bachelors people came with bachelors you one-year yeah path Um, yes, I will say the less that they had to do the stronger the retention is because the pathway is just, but clearly though, even the ones who came in with, without a ah but bachelor's degree did well because it takes a, you know, it doesn't take much to knock it 92% down. So that's right. That's right. yeah Um,
00:29:15
Speaker
about 800 people were, are, or are finishing as apprentices in the three-year time span. When we started, we had a budget for marketing. We just, and we reallocated that money after about six months because we realized we don't need to market. The word of mouth was so strong among our school district partners. When a few of them started getting into this and realized how how much time and money it was saving them from a teacher turnover perspective.
00:29:45
Speaker
um You know, they told their friends and we we didn't really need to do much advertising. We had hundreds of applicants every time. Now in in higher ed, one of the biggest shifts we had to make with our, we had 14 university partners. And so all of those 14 university partners really had to shift their mindset around the Nunez- sequence for application for getting students in the program because you know in higher ED we're used to like being the front gate for enrollment. Amy Nunez- And we're used to saying apply with us first and then we'll find an internship for you or work based learning site or a student teaching site or whatever the case may be. Nunez- And this model totally flips that and says the employers in the driver's seat, the school district selects. Amy Nunez- The apprentices the school district interviews and decides which pair of professionals are teaching assistants or Community members, they want. to put in their apprenticeship pathway because they they intend to hire this person at the end of the day. And so they're being just as selective with their apprentices as they would be in a hiring scenario where they're interviewing candidates for a job. And then after the school district has selected those candidates for apprenticeship, they say, OK, candidate, here are your one, two, or three options for colleges who can provide the coursework for you while you're in this pathway. Sometimes there was a choice to be made there. Sometimes there wasn't. It just depended on kind of geographic location, licensure, those kinds of things.
00:31:10
Speaker
we the ah Are the majority of the schools that are participating, are they delivering online courses or are students going in person? Are they teaching at the schools at all?
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah. so that was probably one of the major barriers we faced at the very beginning. Most of our schools of education did not have fully online coursework or programs. And so candidates, and we have a lot of rural areas in Tennessee. And so candidates were either having to drive very long distances to get to evening and weekend classes um or they were, like we had districts who said, we just can't participate because we don't have an ed prep provider geographically close enough. And we as a state didn't have enough online providers who could do the right licensure areas at the right levels. Like we had lots of online master's degree programs, but we really didn't need master's degree programs. We needed online bachelor's completion is really what we need. We needed online gen eds and some of our folks didn't have that either. And then The online programs we did have had kind of caps where they would say, you know, we can only accept 30 people and we want to do it in our geographic area. Well, what about the other 700 people in the state who like live in all these other places? um And so we actually wrote a grant to Ascendium Education Foundation who funded us to create online competency-based modules, curriculum for teacher education and aligned to in-task standards, which is what all of our colleges that have to align to. um
00:32:45
Speaker
All those online modules of curriculum are done now and can be they're all we are they were created by our faculty fellows that we selected and hired from right here in Tennessee so it was Tennessee faculty members creating Tennessee curriculum for other Tennessee.
00:33:02
Speaker
prep preparers of educators, and they can take those modules and and adopt them right into their own ed prep programs on their own learning management systems within their own courses.
00:33:13
Speaker
They're all agnostic, no no branding for anyone anywhere. So, you know, no no competitive fears there. They get to just take the modules and use them within their own courses. And that really has helped them speed up the extent to which they can offer really high quality online courses for for teacher apprentices across the state.
00:33:35
Speaker
gene Can you give us some timeframe context? is this Is the bulk of this happening before COVID, during, and how did that, what did that do to this, if it spanned that? Yeah, no, this started in fall of 2022.
00:33:50
Speaker
So you weren't trying to you weren't either up and running or trying to stand this up when everything imploded. Yeah, no, no, this was post-COVID, yes, thankfully. Yeah, and folks were kind of worried at first that they were going to have to start pulling some of their COVID emergency remote teaching, old lecture capture videos, like pulling those over to use. and And nobody was really super comfortable with that because, again, instructional design, like it just what it was, it was not well done. And everybody knew that and didn't feel good about it. So that's why we were glad to have the funding to actually create some really high quality online stuff.
00:34:27
Speaker
So Tennessee has, i believe, right, ah a statewide online initiative. Like, so there's like, if you offer online courses, and I'm an online student, I in theory it could be at UT, but I could take a University of Memphis online course, because it's all part of, like, it's all part of this one big conglomeration of opportunities that i know it existed before i don't know so it's kind of a question does it still exist the only reason i'm asking that question is like with with gen eds it just surprises me that there wasn't as many gen eds when that system has been in place for yeah i think at least 10 years yes so tbr tennessee border regent schools which are our community colleges they have an online shared repository of gen ed classes that they can share amongst themselves um
00:35:21
Speaker
the four-year schools, but the the two-year schools, the community colleges don't do teacher licensure. So they can get someone through those first two years. But then if someone has an associate's degree, the best path for them is to enroll in a four-year institution to get their licensure stuff, but they may still be missing some gen eds for some of those four-year institutions. And that's where we ran into a little bit of hiccup. Yeah.
00:35:47
Speaker
i mean, it's always interesting. I mean, I think Licensure-based programs, I think, are always interesting when you're trying to structure them to be delivered in that online space because you know nursing, teaching, like any of those, we just get into this.
00:36:02
Speaker
It has to be done hands-on. It has to be in this environment and in those types of things. so Yeah, the the the landscape's changing a lot. you know Occupational therapy is in that space more and more on the health side. so Yeah, one of the cool things we got to do with our grant project, because, you know, normally when you fund the development of online courses, you do it on a shoestring budget when you're in a a college or university. But when you have some grant funds to work with, you get to do kind of the cutting edge stuff. And so part of our proposal from the beginning was to incorporate virtual simulations as the summative assessment for every competency. We developed 16 modules. So every module as the summative assessment has a ah live virtual assessment at the end where, you know, the candidate is ah in a scenario, dropped into a scenario with a live actor who is prompting them to respond. So if you're in this parent-teacher conference and here's what happens, how do you respond? And then the candidate on the other end of the the video screen has to respond and And the simulation operator is looking for hit and miss behaviors and our faculty get to design those hit and miss behaviors and that's part of what they did is the curriculum development project is they knew.
00:37:22
Speaker
you know, I'm looking for Kelvin to do these things and say these things and say that he's going to do these things. And that's what I'm trying to prompt him to do as the actor behind the scenes in this scenario. And then that recording of that scenario gets sent to the faculty member who then gets to assess, did Kelvin indeed hit the hit behaviors and miss the misbehaviors? And, and, you know, does he pass this competency?
00:37:45
Speaker
um And so that kind of investment in the development of those simulated competency-based assessments was a super important part of the project. um And now those are tools that all of our universities can employ. It's a great practice opportunity, too, for candidates who, like, you don't always get to practice de-escalating a behavior, a negative classroom behavior. But the first time it happens, you wish you had a chance to practice it somewhere.
Collaborating for Systemic Impact
00:38:15
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Which I think goes to your point earlier about people that go into teaching don't really realize what it means to be a classroom teacher because a lot of times they don't get engaged in those types of things on a day-to-day basis.
00:38:29
Speaker
Or their experience was as teachers or as students, right? So you see it. It's like, you know, Christmas was magic when you're little. Little did you realize how much mom and dad or parents were making the magic and were exhausted by it.
00:38:43
Speaker
it's It's very Wizard of Oz, right? So initially, like there's lots of awe and wonder, but behind the scenes, So, you know, Erin, could you maybe also like tell us more too about, because I know our time with you is limited today, but what's what's next for you?
00:39:04
Speaker
And maybe also share what you've learned so far from, you know, given that you are the professional learner, what have you learned so far? and And then how are you leveraging those personal learnings to do what's next?
00:39:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, I am learning a ton about state government and state government systems. I have never before this job had to work in an environment where I engaged with um economic community developers or the Tennessee Board of Regents or State Board of Ed or Department of Labor Workforce Development or our own government relations team. I didn't even know that universities had government relations teams when I worked in university settings before. um And so I'm learning the whole you know state government side of things, which has been super, so super interesting. And recognizing that the more we collaborate with one another, the more we in in the education space, meaning folks who have a background in
00:40:02
Speaker
the structuring and building of systems of education. The more we have opportunity to connect and collaborate in meaningful ways with our workforce development friends and economic community development um and state board of ed friends, they ah good things can happen. um They have resources and programs and funding structures and funding mechanisms and grant programs and just all manner of programming that they're very interested in helping to resource the kinds of things that meet the workforce needs of a state.
00:40:36
Speaker
I didn't realize there were so many people in a state who were so concerned about educating a workforce because I was always thinking about it from the educator perspective. But there are like so many people in a state who want the workforce to be successful and happy and thriving. And so I just think all the time about like,
00:40:52
Speaker
if we got all those people like mobilized in the same direction singing the same song from the same songbook and using resources in ways that were most effective and efficient man we could have just an amazing impact again on all those people who don't feel like they have any particular talents so so i'm interested in given your background and your doctoral work and expertise in instructional design and structural systems, how did that background prepare you well for this new workforce development and the space? And how, or if you want to answer this one, how did it not, not as a dig on the program, but yeah know you know, you're,
00:41:33
Speaker
We're talking about the Wizard Oz, like we're not in Kansas anymore. Like you're not, you're not centered in pedagogy and how to help foster learning. Now you're in a a new space. How, what have your past helped you prepare and prepare you to adapt to this new space?
00:41:50
Speaker
Yeah. um I think one of the things I learned from instructional design is um The results that we have are a result of the systems that we have in place. And so if we don't like the result, then we need to change the system. And that a lot of what we have, we tinker around the edges of things a lot.
00:42:12
Speaker
um and And I saw it, you know, from a course, development instructional perspective, but now I'm seeing it on the much larger scale of, you know, state systems, but like, as opposed to, for example, if you're like doing course design and you really want to improve the number of your students who, you know, pass the NCLEX test or pass the calculus exam at the the end of course exam. You don't just tinker around the edges of your course and say, well, I'm just going to give an extra worksheet every week and that's going to fix this problem and more of my students are going to pass. You go all the way back down to the learning outcomes of your course.
00:42:50
Speaker
Do the learning outcomes match what people actually need to be able to show? Am I helping them practice those outcomes? multiple Like you go all the way back to the root of your course and you redesign it kind of from the ground up. Like, what am I missing? If you really want to impact things and really want to create change, Like, I feel like that was something that, and the idea, secondly, from instructional design and pedagogy in general, that we educate the people who are in front of us.
00:43:17
Speaker
we we We don't get to pick and choose like the top 2%. We educate the people who walk through the door. And if that means that you're lacking a particular skill or there's a knowledge gap for this learner, it's my responsibility as the educator to help fill that knowledge and
Navigating Systemic Change in Education
00:43:33
Speaker
skill gap. And that might mean sending, you know, Calvin, who's my D student, that might make mean sending him over to this like extra training module that he's going to have to go do on his own time to get caught up with everybody else. It doesn't mean I do it for him. But I need it as the educator, it's my responsibility to provide him with that and to recognize that he has a knowledge and skill gap that I can provide him with to get him up to where we're going to be teaching in this class. And this is where we're going to be working. And so like we need you to get on board with that.
00:44:02
Speaker
And so um in in our large scale, like university and state systems, we add these extra programs, we tinker around the edges, we say like, what could we do for veterans? What can we do for transfer students? What can we do for displaced workers who this factory or plant has closed? And now we want to reskill them into this role instead of going all the way back to like the center of things and recognizing.
00:44:28
Speaker
um So in the in the grand scheme, how do we imagine that an adult who has lost their job and needs to upskill or reskill into a new profession?
00:44:40
Speaker
How do we imagine them learning about that opportunity? in the design of our state systems. Who's responsible for that person? Who's responsible for the pathway that they will follow and who they'll talk to and what form they'll fill out and how they'll get funding? And right now, it seems like we kind of just look at each other and, well, is that Department of Labor? Is that is that the you know economic development? Like, is that higher ed? who Who is that? And is it just luck? and And where's the person's agency in that scenario? So I think that's um what I want to try to do at this point is to use those instructional design skills of like, let's go back to what we intend the design for
00:45:25
Speaker
that person to be and design something that would meet that person's need. You know, that adult learner who, you know, needs a new career tomorrow. What would we want that to look like and how can we structure all of the many resources that we have in order to make that happen?
00:45:41
Speaker
Yeah, I love that because i think you're right. Innovating around the edges is it's it's kind of taking the easy way out, but then it's kind of our it's our way of really kind of just getting started somewhere, right? but Because I almost feel like there's still the...
00:46:02
Speaker
There's still a ah need to really do what you're suggesting, like unpacking existing courses and programs, identifying the competencies and skills underneath so that if we are trying to prepare folks to be broadly educated and specifically skilled to kind of steal.
00:46:19
Speaker
um you know, that phrase from the UT system about our micrograms. I stole it from Education Design Lab, just to be clear. so Okay, there you go. Yeah, so how do we how do we strike that balance, right? But we have to we have to do a better job of, like, not speaking about learning objectives, but how can we speak to, again, the the skills and competencies that employers are really...
00:46:43
Speaker
Like until we kind of break out of this tower babble that we're in, it's it's just it's just, it's tough to to to make that transition, I think. So Aaron, are you finding that you're thinking, you want to examine things from a holistic systemic perspective?
00:47:02
Speaker
I'll say it delicately. we We're living in a time where there's systemic things. People don't want to deal with systemic things. You know, they want either quick fixes or whatever. can take from that what you will. But are you finding you getting pushback on any of your systemic thinking like because know you're coming now you're in you're going from institutional multi institutional now you're in the state policy environment to economic development and state policy survey and Are finding it's a landscape that's a harder path? I mean, I pick and choose where I talk about what. Like, I don't talk about the elephant very often. I talk about the bite of the elephant that we're going to address most often. And so I think like like there's a couple of task forces that I'm on where there are state leaders from our Tennessee Higher Education Commission, Department of Labor, all those folks around a table together. That's where we get to talk about the elephant.
00:47:55
Speaker
Like that's where we get to talk about the big thing and how are we going to move this as system leaders together. Generally, in my day-to-day work with, you know, faculty and deans and administrators and chancellors, we're talking about like the little piece that is going to get us there eventually. So like right now, a lot of our conversation is around micro-credentials and Workforce Pell because it's it's new. Workforce Pell is newly available. We have lots of certificate programs that could easily be kind of Structured in a framework as a stackable micro credential that stacks toward a degree.
00:48:31
Speaker
That's a bite of the elephant like that could get us to work to, you know, big systemic change at some point in time. But it's going to take all the other things that Kelvin mentioned to get there, right? Like the unpacking of the skills and what are the skills that are in the credential that stack to the degree and how are people accessing those and where do they see them and like all the things.
00:48:49
Speaker
um And all the people don't need to know about all the things all the time. So it's just a matter of like addressing the things you can when and where you are. Okay. I think you're much more diplomatic than I am. and keelvin kevin I know i love it. Like so kvin someone will post a cool job and Calvin will comment on LinkedIn like, yeah, this looks like a great job.
00:49:10
Speaker
It'd be better if you posted the salary range. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, it would be great if this job was remote, but it's not like, yeah that's yeah you talk about like social mobility and, you cost of living and you're trying to, you know, but you want people live in like high income areas like DC and Seattle.
00:49:32
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah. Guilty much. love you, man. That's why I see those. I'm like, that's why. I know. Every time Kelvin posts about salary and remote, I was like, I'm like, yep, there, there he is again. good.
00:49:44
Speaker
It's good for all of us. Yeah. Well, um Aaron, it's been a pleasure as it as it is always to engage you in conversations about innovation and its various subtopics. And again, I always feel like when i engage you in a conversation, I've learned a lot about ah not just about you and the work that you're doing, but just I don't know, I think there's an affirming aspect of you as well. Like I think we heard a lot today in terms of just, you know, um the work is so needed. and i And I think it kind of reinforces, it affirms all of us because we're trying to do our small part as well to really help the learner.
00:50:32
Speaker
and I love your mission statement. I think that should be the title of your new book. You know, how do we actually recognize the unrecognized? in terms of learning. And, and, but just thank you so much for for joining us today. was a pleasure.
00:50:46
Speaker
You're welcome. It's always fun to have an interested audience. So I and i enjoyed the conversation. Thanks so much. Yeah, it was great to meet you. and thanks so much again.