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Episode 6: The Changeling
42 Plays1 month ago
Join Michael + Shelly as they talk with Nicole about her root, the 1970's young-adult novel, The Changeling by Zilpha Keatley Snyder. This conversation is cozy, just like when you find the perfect nook to enjoy your favorite pasttime.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:00
Speaker
Thank you.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Your Roots Are Showing, the podcast where Shelley and I talk about being unapologetically queer, as well as all the moments that got us and our guests to where we are.
Meet Nicole the Librarian
00:00:43
Speaker
We're going to discuss folks' first inklings of a notion that they were queer, or a moment when hindsight was 20-20, or any combination of all of the above.
00:00:53
Speaker
On today's episode, we're going to put our comf put on our comfiest cardigan, find the best book nook to settle into, and chat with our favorite librarian, Nicole, who I know just smells of leather-bound books and oleanders. Hello, Nicole. We would love for you to take a minute and introduce yourself to our listeners. So what do you do?
00:01:18
Speaker
Obviously, we already kind of threw that one out there, but what are your pronouns? Where are you from? Where are you now? Just anything that falls into that category. Yeah. Hi, I'm Nicole. She, her pronouns. I grew up in Portland, Oregon, and I'm still in Portland, Oregon.
00:01:35
Speaker
And I'm a librarian. I'm a public librarian. I do collection development, so selecting books, but I also do
The Versatile Role of Librarians
00:01:44
Speaker
reference. I work with kids, adults, do a little programming, kind of everything, all the little, um,
00:01:52
Speaker
Things that librarians do. All the things that librarians do that nobody actually realizes. I mean, I just feel like ri librarians are the kind, you have to be a jack of all trades in order to do that. How does this thing work? My library has a 3D printer and the librarians there, are they have like kind of like makerspace.
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah, we have one of those in the library too. Yeah. you're helping a kid 3D print something inappropriate and then somebody's actually doing something inappropriate. You're also kind of like a disciplinarian. Yeah. But it's not all just...
00:02:31
Speaker
That kind of stuff. I know. i know. i know yeah That's the thing people don't know. the But like I always think, you know, we go shh like shush people. We don't do that. That's a myth. But I do. I feel like I'm more akin to the shop teacher in South Park. Like I do walk around going like quit screwing around a lot.
00:02:50
Speaker
Nice. i love that. How do you know Shelly? um My partner went to high school with her partner.
Nicole's Upbringing and Love for Books
00:03:00
Speaker
nice yep that's right means so Nicole I think what we've known each other for like 10 10 years maybe 11 years maybe yeah I think yeah yeah as long as Amanda and I have been together yeah it's been a hot hot minute that's awesome and you've been in Portland the whole time yeah yep we might be moving um not very far just to the gorge um okay to like a little east of here um
00:03:29
Speaker
But we'll see because i I've got a job offer, but we're still in negotiations to still be a librarian, just at a different library. That's so exciting because I know that um your partner Amanda loves being outdoors and I bet the Gorge just offers a lot for that.
00:03:46
Speaker
so Yeah. I love that you mentioned her partner loves being outdoors because um as we were starting the podcast, her partner in the background picked up a bike off the wall and was heading out to ride a bike. So I was like, yep, checks. Definitely checks. Checks out. Yes. um Well, Nicole, we would love to talk to you just about everything that you do related to libraries as community centers, but also before the podcast, you did your little homework and you told us that your route and-
00:04:18
Speaker
This is so great. Your Root is a discarded library copy of The Changeling by Zilpha Keatley Snyder. So if you could just like kick us off with like, tell us about the community that you grew up in, um which probably includes your local library, but also your family and how that book found its way into your hands.
Impact of 'The Changeling' on Identity
00:04:48
Speaker
Yeah, so I was always a book kid. um ah Like in opposition to my partner, I'm more of an indoor activities kind of gal. And um my parents, like, you know, they were homophobic.
00:05:04
Speaker
But the thing that they always did that I'm so thankful for is like, we never had any issues with books. Like, whenever I see parents being like, oh, i don't want my kid to read this. My parents were like, what, as long as you're reading, we don't care. So they were pretty strict about TV shows, about like who I could hang out with and like different things. But reading, they let us read whatever we want, me and my sister.
00:05:28
Speaker
um And I started with the Egypt game, which is probably the more famous of Zilfah Keeley Snyder's books because it won Newbery Award and um found this book, not this specific copy. This I just got off of.
00:05:44
Speaker
like goodwillbooks.com because I figured I needed to own a physical copy of it. But um yeah, this is the book that really like hooked me into her writing. And i read it. It's not a queer love story by any intention of the author.
00:06:05
Speaker
It's not read that way by most people, but I think if you're queer, can see the signs. Yeah. So this book is out of print, right? um And I, as soon as you sent in your little homework assignment, I immediately got on like Abe books and thrift books. And i was looking at it and I was like, oh, it's not going to get in time for me to read it. ah ah Damn it. You know, I was so upset about it. And then I was like, Shelly, don't be an idiot.
00:06:37
Speaker
Look at your library. So I i went to the Wichita Public Library website, typed in the changeling, and it said that it was in children's storage.
00:06:49
Speaker
So I called the main branch of the library and I said, hey, can I check this out? They're like, yeah, we're just going to have to go find it downstairs. Cranking all the, the, the lower basement stacks to like. yeah Exactly.
00:07:05
Speaker
So yeah, I read it and like the whole time I was reading it, I just kept thinking to myself like, yeah, this is absolutely queer.
00:07:16
Speaker
Like, yeah. Yeah. Can I just read the first paragraph of the book? is that okay? Real quick. Yes, please. Martha Abbott woke up on the seventh day of April and sat straight up in her bed with her eyes wide open. That in itself was significant.
00:07:32
Speaker
As long as she could remember, she'd always awaken slowly and cautiously, testing yesterday gingerly with the tip of her memory, before taking the plunge into the cold, bright consciousness.
00:07:44
Speaker
But on that April morning, she had no choice. Something had reached deep into her dream and jolted her awake and then quickly faded, leaving behind only four definite words. Something's going to happen.
00:07:59
Speaker
i mean, yeah, I can just imagine. you see these? I'm showing goosebumps. I can just imagine how... How old were you, Nicole, when you picked this up? um That's a good question. I think I was
Queer Representation in Literature
00:08:14
Speaker
probably eight when I read this. Oh my gosh. Just thinking about like, well, yeah, because I remember we have a,
00:08:24
Speaker
A long running competition in Oregon called Oregon Battle of the Books where kids pick books to like battle each other and they do um like debates. And I remember like suggesting it and then like no one else had read it because it was published in 1970. And so I would have yeah that would have been in the 90s that I was suggesting it And so it wasn't a popular book at the time or anything. So everyone's like, what? No, we're reading Goosebumps. Like- We just, Southwest Kansas, we just had to Book It, which um you just got free pizza. So you just got like calories. But this book battle sounds way more more intellectual and actually like long-term beneficial.
00:09:03
Speaker
um Michael is downplaying the like role of Book It in my life personally. i loved it. I mean, I love pizza more than I love to read. I i became a a reader later, but I was like, free pizza, I'm in.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Battle of the books. That's so cool. Was that sponsored by your libraries or was it by the school district? Um, it was in the school district and now like that's what it it's called now. So it probably was called something different at the time. But yeah i just have this memory of like being in library, like we would go, the class would go to the library and we'd have like a library session. and yeah, and I was like, what about my favorite book, The Changeling? And so that would have been around when I was like seven or eight. Perfect. Perfect. Nicole, will you give two things? One, a quick definition, like what is a changeling? and maybe just like pretty high level, don't have to go too into detail, just a quick synopsis of the changeling.
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah. so the changeling
Libraries as Community Centers
00:10:07
Speaker
in this book is referring to a myth or folklore about an elf or like magical creature that places it like changes the babies out. So like takes someone's baby and places their own baby. And so it refers to one of the main characters, Ivy, who is really different from her family. She looks different. She acts different. She feels like an outsider in her family. And she thinks that she's a changeling. um
00:10:40
Speaker
the other character, Martha, who's the main character in the narrator, think, and it's been a while since I've read it myself, but you guys can remind me if you've read it more recently, but I think it starts when they're in like third grade. Does that sound right? It's a flashback. Yeah, she's older. Martha's 15, and then it goes back to second grade. Yeah. Second grade. Yeah, yeah. that like
00:11:04
Speaker
so that like the idea is that Ivy thinks she's a changeling, but really Martha's also kind of a changeling because she's pretty different from her family. She feels like an outsider, doesn't feel like she belongs and they find each other and they become best friends. And it's about their friendship and coming from different worlds. Martha's family is like about appearances and have money. Like aristocrats, yeah. Yeah. And Ivy's family comes from the wrong side of the track. So they're involved in Um, like, you know, getting caught up with, uh, all kinds of scams, all kinds of scams and like the, um, you know, poverty and, um, she has to move around a lot and, uh,
The Role of Literature in Identity Formation
00:11:51
Speaker
and And then it's like treated poorly by the other adults. Like, oh, she's just a- A Carson. A Carson, yeah. yeah Well, and and part of her like frame um and her look, she's like super thin, she's got these giant eyes and she's just like free kind of wild creature.
00:12:10
Speaker
So, you know, as a young person, you could probably think like, oh, I'm different in this way. But as like an adult reader, you're like, oh, no, you're malnourished. yeah like Like there are things going on in your home that are not.
00:12:24
Speaker
that Compared to like Martha's household where they're like stealing giant pork chops and all these things and, um you know, they're all these resources and Martha's like.
00:12:36
Speaker
what is it like a, like a kind of an old mansion in like Northern California. um yeah Compared to Martha Ivy's house that is like to the studs. There's like, there's the sheet rock is gone.
00:12:51
Speaker
her you know, one of her dad's like crackpot ideas. She basically, and there's a baby Josie. josie Yeah. The younger sister. Whose crib is like a square of boxes.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, it kind of alluded to that she's sort of like Ivy had been kind of neglected and then the baby Josie's kind of being neglected and the parents are kind of in and out of in prison or jail. And um I think her house is under an overpass. So yeah it's really it's written for cause I get this question a lot. Like, can you recommend books for my second grader or my third grader? And we talk about content and we talk about reading level. And I think the reading level is typical of like a 1970s juvenile fiction book. Like it's, it's perfect for, i mean, I read it in first or second grade. So like, right you know, first through fourth grade reading level. um But then yeah, as an adult looking back on it, you get these, um you see things like that, like what the author is suggesting the condition of each of the families is. And then along the way there,
00:14:00
Speaker
um both kind of discouraged from being friends with each other, especially Martha's family doesn't want her to be friends with Ivy. She's going be a bad influence, even though she's a little like six year old, seven year old. And and but you can see that the parents, like the adults in the story are often wrong, like yeah morally wrong. And the kids are right and like justified and, but they don't have power or control over their situation. Except for fucking Kelly. She can get yeah right on of here. Oh my God. Kelly's the worst. Yeah. A classic mean girl right character. Yeah.
00:14:34
Speaker
Who acts perfectly in front of her mother, but then is like side talking the whole time. She's horrible. horrible. There is one moment, um full disclosure, i couldn't find the book to save my life. And I listened to a podcast that basically like broke down the entire story. um Because ZKS Heads is a thing.
00:15:01
Speaker
Like there's like whole community. need to meet them. I'm one of them. i I went on a deep dive. There was a video game. There was like an Atari video game that Zilf helped write.
00:15:12
Speaker
ah um The Roots of the Tree. Below the Roots, yes. Yeah. which I got my old video game emulator out and played. Um, if anybody I work with was listening to this, um, I did play this game while I had downtime at working from home. So, um, but I was obsessed with that. It's like a pretty quick playthrough, but, um,
00:15:33
Speaker
I highly recommend anybody who is a reader. All these books can be read in an afternoon. Absolutely. Her, I'm, I'm a, I'm a Zilpha head. Also yeah look up Zilpha's pictures. She's a total Zilph. She's like, if all four golden girls,
00:15:52
Speaker
Became one. She's a man she's magical. Yeah. No, she really is. She really is. She's a hot Zilf. 2014 when we lost Zilfa was a oh sad year. Sad year. yeah Yeah.
00:16:06
Speaker
um I'm curious, Nicole. So you said that your parents, ah like it was, you could read anything that you wanted to read um and that you never got in trouble for reading any kind of book. Did you ever get in trouble for reading at the dining room table or the kitchen table?
00:16:22
Speaker
That, yes. Like, not in trouble, but definitely, like, you got to put that down so you can eat, right? Or, like, you're going stomachache or something. like, what are you talking about? You're going to get a stomachache. That's so true. Everything gave you worms at my house. Like, don't eat cookie dough. It'll give you worms. Don't eat the whatever. It'll give you worms. Brown sugar. Brown sugar. Yeah.
00:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, I got grounded because I was reading at the dining room table. Yeah. oh My parents were like, put the book down. And I was like, make me. They're like, okay. And then meanwhile, yeah now as librarian, and I have parents come in and they're like, i can't get my kid to read to save my life. And then I'll suggest like, well, like, you know, what about comic books? Well, I want them to read real books. Oh, shush. Comic books are real books. Yeah. That's true. Whatever the kid wants to read is is is good enough. That's what we say. Well, and yeah I mean-
00:17:13
Speaker
You know, I'm a teacher, and so and I teach kids who are actually inclined to read. I teach, um like, AP literature. And even still, their attention spans for long text is just so different than even my students from 10
Playful Exploration of Fairy Lore
00:17:30
Speaker
years ago. um And then, of course, there's tons of research out there about – how changing the size of our screens, like from holding a book open, that is what, like probably 11 to 12 inches wide. Like a laptop screen. Down to like a three inch wide ah phone screen has changed their abilities for their eyes to track back and forth for longer distances.
00:17:58
Speaker
And that's also affecting um children's attention spans. Because if you're having to read 12 inches across something, That takes four times as long as a three-inch screen. um Wow.
00:18:12
Speaker
I know. Isn't that just bonkers to think about? Well, what I was going to bring up the that one thing It kind of along the same line, i so I think a coworker or somebody, once I left education was talking about how, oh, you know, young people, you know, I wish they would just engage more with a book or whatever, but it's like, I wasn't reading on my cell phone. I didn't have a cell phone. Like they're actually, actually are reading probably more than, more smaller bits more frequently um than like other generations. ah
00:18:46
Speaker
but But in the same note what you're talking about here, sometimes it's just headlines and like things are missed and like the deep dive is where and I don't think things are happening as much maybe. i don't know.
00:18:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, that makes so much sense. So I did full disclosure read um The Changeling because I got it from my local library. Shout out Wichita Public Library who just got a new logo that looks so much like Atari.
00:19:14
Speaker
It looks so like it's just Atari. um But when I was reading it, it made me think so much of my favorite queer book that it was was written as a queer YA book. um Was Annie on my mind? Ah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah. Oh my God.
00:19:35
Speaker
I just remember, I'm sure that my name was stamped in that book or like my name was written in that book stamped so many times checking it out because I felt seen even though I didn't know i was being seen because I didn't come out as queer until my 20s but like yeah I just knew that that was a story that was so oh yeah you know sorry it was so good so Sang don't know if you Sang Spell the book Sang Spell by Josh oh no Josh is the main character sorry I couldn't Phyllis Reynolds that's what her name is
00:20:16
Speaker
um so basically this kid gets like in this time warp in like the appalachian mountains basically the sanguine people of appalachia okay um but there's a part where josh the main character is just like observing this like super buff guy's body and his arms and body was like this like I think the line was like the best constructed bag sack of potatoes or something like that. And i just remember reading that in like fourth grade and being like, I love potatoes.
00:20:53
Speaker
So have you read Annie on my mind? Yes. Yeah. That was the first like overtly queer book that I read. And i know so many people that have had the same experience of like, I read Annie on my mind and it like was my queer awakening. um I like, I think a lot of people go through phases of like coming out is a ah process that you repeat over and over again. yeah And I think I knew pretty young that I was queer and then went through a phase where I was like, but it's too much work. So I'm going to pretend to be straight and then convince myself I'm straight. And during that time, I read Annie in My Mind and a friend of mine saw me reading it was like, saw the cover and said, are they lesbians? And I was like, how would you know that? Because it is still kind of like, it's very implied, right? Like it' still it's obvious, but it's also
00:21:41
Speaker
Like they never say the word lesbian, I don't think. Yeah. No, they don't. like They don't. Yeah. They're, you know, the teachers are roommates and the the girls who have feelings for each other. It's that kind of thing. Yeah. Oh, man. this Have you guys seen the children's hour? oh my God. Yes. Let me start Okay. So you just said oh the roommates.
00:22:00
Speaker
That's also kind of a queer coded Oh, no, it's not queer coded. It is straight up. Well, are they? no i mean I know that there's like a scene where like they confront the feelings. But one of the women like i don't know if it's Audrey Hepburn or Shirley MacLaine. One of them has a boyfriend and one of them doesn't. It's Audrey Hepburn has the boyfriend. Right.
00:22:21
Speaker
So anyways. Yeah. right The documentary. ah The Lavender Screen. Does that sound familiar? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they talk about like queerness in early cinema and like postcode. And that's one of the films along with um ah Fried Green Tomatoes at the Wetzelstall Cafe. That oh yeah they just like, they're like, okay, so they are lesbians, but we're just gonna like put a guy in and then pretend like they're not and then never talk about it. But it's like the whole plot is they're lesbians. Right.
00:22:53
Speaker
We're just going to throw a guy in there and he'll be abusive. um But like, he's not bad. He's just, they're just really good friends. It's not like they're. And cannibalism? Question mark? yeah question mark. ah Reminds me of that Roald Dahl story, lamb to the slaughter, right? Oh, God.
Queer-Coded Characters in Literature
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's such great short story.
00:23:15
Speaker
um I just want you to know that everything about tonight's conversation is just so in my wheelhouse right now. i love it too Literature. i love it too. And, you know, I was so thinking about Ivy and Martha.
00:23:30
Speaker
i think we all maybe as people who feel like we have to hide something or feel like you have to, um meet a standard like there's kind of a Martha and an Ivy inside both of us and I'm i'm looking at Shelly's notes here um you were a competitive synchronized swimmer wow Nicole so like do you have your book loving you know time maybe to yourself reading your books but then there's like this competitive athlete you know maybe some pressure from family like
00:24:08
Speaker
I'm not saying that you you have to be one or the other, but yeah how did the two- Yeah, we contain multitudes. Right. So how did the two- We're multifaceted. We're we're all gems here. um How did the two come together? like How did you kind of balance that like becoming, I guess?
00:24:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really great question. So another part of the story is that Ivy really wants to be a dancer and she, but she doesn't have classical training. And so Kelly, the mean girl's like they been to ballet school. And so she makes fun of Ivy because she's just like the wild dancing, Martha Graham style. yeah and And I always identified more with Martha. Like I think a um just kind of a more like,
00:24:55
Speaker
meek and wanted to follow the rules kid and impressed by someone like Ivy who goes her own way. But I was really passionate about synchronized swimming as an art form. And um so yeah, I chased after it because I i just thought it was so beautiful and cool. And um so, yeah, that's how I got into that. How long did you how long did you do competitive swim and or competitive synchronized swimming? And when did you start?
00:25:24
Speaker
I started when I was 11 in middle school and um it was a lifeline because I also like didn't fit in, in middle school friendships change. You go to that new building with older kids and like dynamics change. And so I really felt like an outsider. So doing synchronized swimming, cause I was doing like, if you imagine like gymnasts and they, they're always doing gymnastics to go to the Olympics. It was kind of like that. It was like, I'm always at practice. yeah And so that was kind of my escape. um So I started in middle school and did it for about 10 years.
00:25:59
Speaker
Wow. So did you find yourself like having to like find a balance between bookish Nicole and like intense competitive Nicole?
00:26:14
Speaker
Or was that just always an easy thing for you? yeah. Well, I think I like took school out of the mix. I just stopped caring about school. Fair enough. Middle school is a piece of shit. Okay. Okay. But after this, I have a whole middle school question. Yes. Okay.
00:26:34
Speaker
ah Yeah. So um I think, and another thing about synchronized swimming is um which is called artistic swimming now so they've changed um but back in my day when it was called synchronized swimming is um you're like creating a story for each routine as we would call it and so you have your music and then you have your moves that you do to it and it's like dance like you you're trying to tell a story and so i think it really tied together with like my interest in books and reading and creative writing and coming up with like these storylines for what we're trying to convey with our bodies in the water and with the music and everything.
00:27:19
Speaker
I love that. like Your body movements as a means of communication. that's Yeah, and expression. And also holding your breath for a really long time. Yes. How long can you hold your breath? Totally.
00:27:33
Speaker
um I don't know back nowadays, but back then yeah, when I was peak, I think. breath holding. Peak breath holding was like a minute. That's impressive. my God, that's like Harry Houdini level. When you were 11 and synchronized swimming, I had my first cigarette. So think that you are winning on that. But no, this conversation and talking about, I'm definitely more of an Ivy character. Yeah, know. Familial issues, trying to live down reputations of my older siblings and people who just were writing me off as, oh, one of those McDaniel boys or judging me before I even...
00:28:17
Speaker
entered the room um but also middle school was the first time where i got like clear warnings about being queer like don't sit that way don't be this way one time this we were talking about epithets in like uh english class or something and one girl was like michael's most likely to have an interior designing show and at first i was like fuck yeah and like my excitement at it like everybody kind of recoiled and i was like oh yeah no i don't want that i that's But it's just like those moments and this in this story kind of hits along these lines of these these moments where you are just so vulnerable to the world. like you're you're Like I've been this height and size since like eighth grade or whatever.
00:29:06
Speaker
um I'm sure it's fluctuated. Maybe a little heavier now. But um ah but you're kind of in these like adult presenting bodies without knowing anything about the adult world.
Evolving Identity and Advocacy
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:20
Speaker
So reading Changeling at eight or 11, Martha and Ivy kind of stick with you in your mind, in your head as you grew? Were you thinking about them? Like the characters that are kind of like in the background?
00:29:34
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. Like, I feel like the characters have stuck with me, even though like I was like, I should brush up on it and read it again. Cause it's probably been like 20 years since the last time I read it. But they just stick with me as these like,
00:29:49
Speaker
i think you identified it really well that they are constantly being except for the horse i think the horse oh teacher yes yes his wife them yeah his wife mrs her something smith mrs smith yeah yeah she's like the one cool adult who's like whatever you guys want to do is great but for the most part they're figuring themselves out and they're being told know the whole time. Like, right I like this. Well, that's not, you're not supposed to like that.
00:30:19
Speaker
And as a kid, you're like, why? my Like, why wouldn't I want to have an interior decorating show? That's amazing. Yeah. That sounds awesome. hello yeah Everyone would know my name. Make me a mogul.
00:30:30
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's one of the hard things, like all kids go through this, but queer kids, especially you get told these rules that don't make any sense. Right. And so you're like, well, want to follow the rules, but there's no rhyme or reason to them. Totally.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yeah. I remember being young and just like things I love to do. Okay. Here's one of those things. When I was like in you know elementary school, six, seven, eight, living in Southwest Kansas, it was like, you know, thunderstorms and windy or whatever. We had this like little, it was like the side of our garage. You could like logs were kind of big railroad ties actually were were stacked up and it was under a red bud tree.
00:31:13
Speaker
It was quiet and cool there was moss and you could get to the roof of the garage from climbing up the logs onto the tree, the little whatever jumping over to thing. And then if it was windy and rainy, I'd just love to stand with a sheet.
00:31:27
Speaker
on the roof of the garage just like fuck yes and my parents totally didn't care they're like there's michael again like yes like a superhero yes uh for me it was but then there was a day where it was like oh p.s probably shouldn't do that anymore oh like but it's like that's my joy why yes yeah i love that how is this the first episode where we're talking about fairies i mean it's all queer queerness queer queer queer fairy talk
00:32:06
Speaker
It had to be on somebody's bingo card somewhere. Somewhere. Right? Hopefully. you're making a bingo card for our show, yeah fairies. yeah Oberon. King of the fairies. um Speaking of fairies, I have put together a quick game show.
00:32:26
Speaker
It's time to play. Oh, yay. So this is all American slash Irish fairy lore. Ooh, fun. Okay, are you ready?
00:32:38
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, we're going to start across the pond in the Emerald Everyone knows of the Banshee, but she isn't just a lady with a loud voice or a bad hair.
00:32:50
Speaker
According to lore, what is she doing whenever she's spotted in the wild? Is she a stealing socks for laundry-based ransoms,
00:33:03
Speaker
Is she B, washing the bloodstained clothes of those who are about to die? C, is she auditioning for a Celtic heavy metal band? D, is she leading travelers into a bog to their to their death of a mud bath?
00:33:24
Speaker
See, i want to say D, but then I'm thinking, did I confuse Banshees and Sirens? Because I'm like, wasn't she luring sailors to their death? But... ah
00:33:36
Speaker
So I want to say D. Are you going to guess too, Shelly, or do you have the notes? Can you see the answer? I don't have the notes, but I'm pretty positive it's B. I'm pretty positive it's B, but you say D, so I don't know.
00:33:51
Speaker
It is B. I mean, okay, I'm going to give us a cheer.
00:33:59
Speaker
because i think together we got that right so she has like so and in the war in the magic of it she's actually washing she's like in the future state of your death yeah washing your clothes of the blood that she's about to give you o wow All right, question two.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to the American Deep Woods. All right, crossing back to North America, which has its own hidden folklore, which is influenced by all the different cultures and stuff.
00:34:34
Speaker
And the folklore of the, oh my gosh, I wrote down the phonetic put pronunciation of these words. I apologize. I don't have those notes with me right now. Okay, so in the folklore of the Mohegan and Pequot peoples, there are tiny forest-dwelling beings known as the Mak'awi-Sug. If you want to stay on their good side, what should you leave out for them?
00:35:02
Speaker
Cornmeal and berries, a tiny set of keys, pure iron nails, or a good Yelp review.
00:35:15
Speaker
Huh. That's a tough one.
00:35:19
Speaker
I feel like iron nails are usually used as a repellent. You are witchy, so I believe you. So it's definitely not that one. okay Tiny keys. I know that there are some fairies that maybe will be in the quiz ah where I don't remember what country that where you build them tiny houses. So I'm kind of drawn to the tiny keys to get into their tiny houses. I like that. Yeah. Remember when were in North America? indians Maybe some corn and berries. Probably some corn and some berries. It is cornmeal and berries.
00:35:53
Speaker
Look at that. We rule.
00:35:58
Speaker
Just like their Irish cousins, little fae people appreciate a good snack. So here we go. Also, um I did learn that iron is kryptonite to the fae people.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah. that's You had it. yeah Okay, so here we go. In both Irish and Appalachian lore, there is one specific thing you should never do if a fairy gives you something or helps you with a chore. um What is that one thing you should never do?
00:36:28
Speaker
A, ask for their Instagram handle. B, offer them a seat at dinner. C, say thank you. Or D, pay them.
00:36:42
Speaker
Oh, this is interesting. Fairies have their own culture. Yeah, they they're going to be offended if you thank them. That is correct. Yay.
00:36:55
Speaker
So saying, yeah yeah, because that is an acknowledgement that they gave you something. And so saying thank you is like, you have to give them something back now. Like it's a contract. It implies a debt.
00:37:08
Speaker
and And I know that without knowing the answers to these quizzes. You guys, um and I think maybe, Nicole, the the one you're thinking about with the little houses are called domovoys in um Russian folklore. Domovoys are like the little house elves, um and they usually are are at your hearth. um So you give them things that you would give like to keep them happy.
00:37:34
Speaker
yeah oh yeah And also domovoys. Sorry.
00:37:43
Speaker
P.S. One of my favorite things about Shelley when I first met her, ah she told me about how she loves to complain in Russian and it is the best if you get a chance to hear it. i love it. Okay. Last question.
Creativity and Expression as Tools for Self-Discovery
00:37:56
Speaker
ah though This is called the Tree of Trouble. In Ireland, farmers will often build roads around a single lone hawthorn tree.
00:38:07
Speaker
What is this tree commonly called in Ireland? A, the Blarney branch, B, a fairy fort, C, the leprechaun's umbrella, or D, nature's speed bump.
00:38:29
Speaker
I like nature's speed bump, but I bet that's not the answer.
00:38:34
Speaker
Where is this again? ireland Ireland. Ireland again.
00:38:41
Speaker
gonna go with the Blarney branch. Oh, if if it were like a shopping center. Yeah, sorry. Sorry, I had to. If only the Barney branch sounds like a great store for like really like clothes that cover you from head to ankle. um But it is a fairy fort.
00:39:01
Speaker
uhu It is believed that these are entrances into the other world. Even today, construction projects in Ireland have been diverted to avoid cutting down hawthorn tree.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah, and Hawthorne trees are also, like, super involved in, like, I'm just thinking of, like, Washington Irving's short stories um from, like, you know, he wrote Rip Van Winkle and The Devil and Tom Walker. Yeah. um And he is often writing around a Hawthorne tree because they can be, you know, terrible and foreboding. um ah But isn't that interesting?
00:39:40
Speaker
Thank you so much for playing. Nicole, you kind of crushed it. You got three out of four. Nice work. So proud. Good job. um So, yeah, we just love to have this little um game interlude because – I think sometimes as queer folks, when we get to thinking about like our roots and things, um or like our queer childhoods or adolescences, sometimes they feel heavy and like you're learning so many things during them. um
00:40:12
Speaker
But also like we all came out on the other side and isn't that great? so Yeah. um And queers are great at trivia. so I mean, yes. It turns out. Our most recent episode was, or two episodes ago, was with a trivia master or trivia host. Yeah. Ryan, who just, yeah, just knows every little thing.
00:40:33
Speaker
Every little thing. i love And big things. You know how we both, like, we all identified this as, like, a queer story by, you know, who knows what exactly. But I think of, like, one that people always tell me, too, about is... um Harriet the Spy?
00:40:50
Speaker
oh yeah, like for sure. Harriet the Spy is a lesbian. Like, you know, a Little Baby Dyke. and um I mean, she's so, absolutely, 100%. Harriet the Spy is out there, yeah, like you said, sleuthing, getting all of her, like, trench coats to one day begin be Carmen Sandiego.
00:41:12
Speaker
And just look like so independent, always getting her like villain and running the show. I mean she is...
00:41:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think both of those. i hi Carmen Sandiego and Tire at the Spy. yeah i don't know. it's it So are you? Okay, hold on. i This might be controversial. And I'm not a lesbian.
00:41:38
Speaker
um So please educate me. But you kind of just said like, women who are in charge is somehow queer coded. Yeah. is that is I think so.
00:41:52
Speaker
Because you take what you can get and I think we like, we I love it with those memes of like when we claim random things like queers are good at trivia. like I mean, a lot of people are good at trivia and some queers are good at trivia. Interior decorating. decorating. Gardening.
00:42:10
Speaker
gardening being witches yeah um yeah but I think you see like when there's something different like when you're a kid and you see book after book of the same characters like um what it's like a boy and his dog a white boy and his dog over and over again and then you see a character that's doing something different that difference is sort of queer coded So that's a great way to put it. You know, when you bring, when you say Carmen Sandiego, I'm like, yeah, power, lipstick, lesbian for sure.
Librarians Fostering Community
00:42:44
Speaker
And hat and and also like hidden, but so prominent.
00:42:50
Speaker
Like it's not the spy show. It's where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? Like she's front and center, but she's still hidden. Right? Like it's, it's,
00:43:03
Speaker
What is it when it's like ah it's hidden in plain sight, right? Like, and I think I'm absolutely going to double down on what you said, Nicole, about like anything that is slightly different and we'll just take it because, i mean, especially as, you know, I'm a child of the 80s, you know, i was born in the late 70s.
00:43:23
Speaker
grew up in the 80s. My mom is a shout out to Pam. um She has like, she did everything. She was a mom. She worked. She was one of two women in the state of Kansas who did her job. Like it was a masculine field.
00:43:40
Speaker
And like, I tell her now that she was the first feminist I ever knew. and she will say, no, I'm not. But I think just as Seeing a woman who can be so strong and can be so powerful and can figure things out on her own yeah is without the support of any kind of male figure.
00:44:08
Speaker
just it's It's like taking the money penny figure from James Bond and giving her her whole her own story. Yeah. I feel like, yes, that's queer for sure. Yeah.
00:44:20
Speaker
As you're saying this, I'm thinking of like the the Josh character from Saying Spell. and I'm thinking of Jonas from The Giver who on my, in like the gay thing, it's like, oh, Jonas was like really tender with this baby who was about to be killed. And Josh was really tender with like the elderly in the in the Saying Spell community.
00:44:41
Speaker
um So like the spotting the difference, to your point, Nicole, like is like flooding my head with like all the characters of books I've read songs I've listened to. I love new wave music and I'm like, Oh my God, Bronx, Gibby. Like when like, run away, turn away. What's over that song is the music video is a guy getting picked on by the swim team.
00:45:05
Speaker
So like, like it's it's the it's the guy who can be gentle. It's the male who is sensitive. It's the guy I'm like, oh, so like, I love that you like perfectly articulated, i think what a lot of the queer community.
00:45:22
Speaker
yeah these like glimpses. Yeah, for sure. yeah Yeah, and The Giver, like I was trying to think of a book, like what yeah what's another book with maybe like a boy character that's that's queer coded and that's such a great example. Because again, he's different, he's unique, he's special, but then there's also this like weight of what that specialness means. He sees something that no one else does. And at first it's color and then it's like memory. yeah But also like anytime you're closeted or anytime you're at whatever, you can, I mean, I've had these moments where i look and see somebody and I'm like, oh, I i have a memory of you. like I know what you're thinking about right now. Yeah.
00:46:06
Speaker
I'm just curious. So um talking about all of these moments
00:46:13
Speaker
hindsight 2020 looking at a book from, you know, the age that I am now um and seeing those and then also recognizing them at the time, but not being able to embrace them. Like, okay, i mean, yes, my name is stamped in the front cover of that library book a hundred times, but...
00:46:32
Speaker
I didn't say it out loud. You know, um I'm just curious, like you mentioned at the very beginning that your parents were homophobic. How did you start or when did you start kind of living this queer life that you, you know, ultimately did grow up and embrace?
00:46:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. I, so I have a memory that I think human memory, like, is fallible and I think this is probably something that like retroactively I've made up but I remember being in first grade and hearing one of my friends say the word lesbian and then asking like I've never heard that word before what does that mean they said it's a girl who like likes other girls and I like you yeah I was like that's me like I don't really yeah know what that means that just like that's me And, um, and I've heard like a similar stories from other people where they have that moment. It's different for everyone, but that moment of like, not really understanding, but just knowing that you're somehow tied to this difference or this identity. And I, um you know, had different coming outs to myself growing up, like, am I really queer? Yes. You know, and then like having your first crush and that kind of stuff. And then I just kind of figured, um,
00:47:55
Speaker
I grew up in Portland, which is liberal, but at the time even we had, we didn't have a don't say gay law, but we had um like a campaign for a don't say gay law. So basically teachers were like, yeah can't say, you know, don't say gay and yeah abstinence only education and all that stuff in the nineties. And so yeah um I was like, I'm just going to move to France and be like an expat and just have like a whole bunch of lovers, but like never come out.
00:48:22
Speaker
Like that was my plan. That's perfect. Yeah. And then I got to college and I was like, nevermind. I'm just going to come out. and So like yeah college then. Okay. Yeah. College. Yeah. College.
00:48:34
Speaker
Oh my gosh. You hit on something that I don't know if I've even put words to myself, but you said I came out to myself. who And that was such a long ah journey for me even. like i was aware, in retrospect, aware of my sexual identity or whatever, like really young.
00:49:00
Speaker
But it's so weird how you can have like the total cognitive dissonance for so long. It wasn't until I was 16, 17 where I was like... I remember looking in the mirror being like,
00:49:18
Speaker
Hey, um for the listeners, I'm voguing. but And pointing a lot. And pointing lot at myself. but because yeah ah Yes, I love that. I love that it's such a simple thing because I think that there's also like –
00:49:37
Speaker
It could be queerness. It could be, you know, as dark as like addiction or it could be um as bright as like your own potential. Like, hey, you're actually really great at something. But we all have this, these moments where we come out to ourselves and- A reckoning. Reckoning, yes. And i love that. um Sorry, my my mind is like 8 million miles a minute right now. But I think that you're hitting on something that- this show kind of revolves around is like, when did you kind of come out to yourself?
00:50:10
Speaker
Because for me, you know, it was it, it was this book for you. For me, it was the Beastmaster movie made for TV. I wasn't made for TV, seeing it on TV and being like, i like that. Yeah.
00:50:25
Speaker
ah So like the discovery of roots is, um is around that coming out to yourself. Mm-hmm. But I think along the way, though, we had like we had magic helpers, too. We had our little Ivies. Yes.
00:50:41
Speaker
Because, i i mean, i know Michael already said that he feels like an Ivy. i definitely identify as a Martha, although thinking about it, I bet my parents would say otherwise.
00:50:54
Speaker
have a Martha in my life, too. You're you're an Ivy, Shelly. But, yeah, like, did did you have... a little ivy to help you like navigate?
00:51:08
Speaker
No. And that's like one of the things I'm like, that's kind of tragic. Like we'll have to play another game to be kind of fun. I think about kids and we don't give kids enough credit for knowing themselves. Like, right and the first time a kid is like, I might be a little different. If you nurture nurture that, like, and don't let make it a big deal, then they might not have to have that constant coming out process. But when you tell a kid like, no, that's not allowed or no, you're not. Or you don't know yourself. That's when we have to keep having those awakenings because it's not going to go away. And so many people I know now that we're queer too, you know, I think we all have that. Like we have friends that's like, you're on Facebook and you're like,
00:51:53
Speaker
i queer the whole time we could have yeah yeah yeah so like i I think it if we had been able to be more open in our generation and time like um we could have all helped each other right but isn't that kind of the beauty of I don't know what we're allowing ourselves to do
Book Recommendations and Queer Literature
00:52:20
Speaker
now.
00:52:20
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like, yeah like, I think you as a ah community, like a community voice as a librarian, somebody who kind of inherently just in the job makes community for people. And probably, i mean, I'm guessing, you know, you recognize people and others who maybe like you identify with or you can see or like, don't know. and And then as an educator, i i know that I have
00:52:53
Speaker
Like these moments where I think to myself, like, I just want to help that kid be who they are Right. whether it Whether it's like, oh, you just really love making clothing and you because you want to express yourself. Not because of any sexuality or anything like that, but I just want you to lean into right your level of expression. um And I just...
00:53:18
Speaker
I think especially now at the ages that we are, we have that opportunity that maybe we didn't receive as younger people.
00:53:31
Speaker
Yeah. so Yeah. Have you ever had ah a young person or ah I want to say client, um a person who comes to the library or like I remember asking.
00:53:44
Speaker
So the the American Girl dolls. There's also a book series. There's a book series. i was in love with Addie. who is I was really into Civil War, and I loved sort of like the of the narrative of the other during the Civil War, whatever that narrative was. And I would i got the Addy books and kind of felt like...
00:54:12
Speaker
I couldn't, like it was like a, but Mrs. Edie, my librarian, i remember being, she was like, oh Michael, you know, you're looking for a book. and I'm like, do you have any, I want to read the Addy books. And she was so cool. She was like, it's going to be on my desk and after school, you can come by and pick it up. So I didn't check it out in front of everybody.
00:54:34
Speaker
ah But she put it, she set it on the desk so I could come pick it up after school. um do you have you seen that have you had that interaction before with a young person where they're like I'm looking for a book on sexuality or oh yeah yeah yeah we get that all the time and like I think that's like one of the the skills that librarians have that we have to like we also have to work on at home but it's like being approachable right and by different people and that's why diversity is so important in librarianship too having a lot of different people so that when folks come up and
00:55:10
Speaker
especially kids and teens and they're like like i have to ask for this um but i don't know how i don't know if this is a safe space and i i think i just look like for portland like i don't think i read particularly queer but i think kids pick up on it because they'll you know they'll be the ones that they ask me like where's the you know where's the queer study section yeah the teen section at our library um The YA publishing has changed so much. So much. Yeah. And there's so many queer books now, which is awesome. There's ah there's a downtick now. So actually there's a bit of a backlash in the publishing.
00:55:49
Speaker
Like manuscripts are getting rejected is what I've been hearing. So there's a like... That's sad. A backlash was sucks, but... I mean, that's because, I mean, the publishing industry is responding to places like Florida where books are just being taken off the shelves, like in droves because they have a queer side character even. Yeah. Like just, yeah, I mean, i so that's so true. And yeah, it's a sad it's a sad turn away from like what was starting to really thrive for diverse books in, in young adult literature.
00:56:28
Speaker
i just remember when I first started writing, um, romance novels, which I love to do sometimes. I just remember telling somebody like, I just want to be the queer Maeve Benchy. And for those of you who don't know Maeve Benchy, she's an Irish writer who wrote like Circle of Friends. And like, and I was just like, i just want to be her, but yeah for ladies. Right.
00:56:54
Speaker
You know, like in this space too, like YA. So I, i don't know, four or five years ago, exploring the trans community, i went YA and I found Surviving Saint Hell.
00:57:07
Speaker
which is a graphic novel about is she Irish or English it's the the author's graphic novel basically like themselves as he looking back at middle school she and then like narrating how they their journey and that helped me like totally relate to the trans community and it was it's and YA has this like really wonderful way of capturing
00:57:38
Speaker
the insecurity and the triumphs that all of us go through yeah just gay straight whatever we all have that band of vulnerability i think it's kind of wider and more narrow for some but yeah yeah we get there Okay, well, Nicole, you asked for it. It's time for something a little lighter. Here we go. Are you are you ready? Okay, so ready we're going to call this our book recommendation rapid fire question time because you're a librarian and we've established that you are approachable.
00:58:11
Speaker
We need a sound effect here for the future. i i Okay, noted. I think it needs to sound like the beginning of Everywhere by Fleetwood Mac. Just like sprinkling, sparkling sound.
00:58:23
Speaker
Michael, I love you dearly. And I will never never allow for a Fleetwood Sac song on our podcast. Fleetwood Mac, come on. No. Okay, all right, all right. So this is the lighthearted moment. just... sprinkle fingering over it. I'm sorry. ah That's not right either. I thought you were into sprinkle fingers. Oh my God. Okay. It's much more lighthearted now. Okay. So Nicole, okay as a librarian, what book are you suggesting to your friend who isn't a reader?
00:58:57
Speaker
And this can be a queer book. Actually, no, let's keep this all queer because you know we know our listeners. Okay. Okay. A queer book for someone who isn't a reader that's really hard i graphic novels I mean yeah I just think graphic novels are queer generally can I throw in mine am I about to play we're kind of like breaking some rules here a little bit because Shelly got to give hands earlier um story of a marriage oh okay I think Andrew Sean Greer story of a marriage is queer and like it reads really fast okay is there a graphic novel in particular Nicole that you would
00:59:35
Speaker
throw into my hands well that's a lie I'm reader I like well so this is also this is like kids or YA but I like um lumberjanes um I love the title.
00:59:51
Speaker
I wish everyone could see both of my Shelly and I both like lit up. Our eyeballs are huge. We were like, Lumberjane, what? Please. Yeah, I don't think it's that popular, but um I, so like maybe it's a little bit old, like too old for the age group it's targeted at, but it's like really rapid and there's a lot of stuff happening on the page. So It's about these kids that go to summer camp and there's a mystery. And there's, you know, there's- Am I a lesbian? biary kid Yeah, there's like queer kids. and um And it's just like everything's happening really fast and there's like lots of things to see on the page. So I think that's a fun one for non-readers.
01:00:29
Speaker
Lumberjanes. Okay, I'm writing it down. I'm going to write it down for myself. um Okay, next question. What are you reading right now when you're curled up with your cat? What? Um, when crawling with my cat who's right here. move the camera. i want to see that cat.
01:00:49
Speaker
just sweet Oh my goodness. oh look at that. Sweetie Mcpeenie. I'm looking really beautiful cat. Mostly white. She's got these really beautiful ears. What would you call that? Brindle ears?
01:01:01
Speaker
She's like a tabby. Yeah. A white tabby. She's precious. What are you reading with her? We are rereading ah the Locked Tomb series. Okay. By...
01:01:16
Speaker
Right over here. ah i'm on the spot. like Nicole is looking back at her like massive bookcase behind her. yeah Librarian what? Like locked tomb heads are going to be like, why why don't you know her name? Tamsin Muir. okay. Yes. Okay. Yes.
01:01:34
Speaker
Okay. And like in anticipation of maybe the fourth book coming out someday, it's one of those ones where there's three books and the fourth book has been forthcoming for like years and years. so I'm very slowly making my way back through. The first three. But it's Lesbian Necromancers in Space is the quick blur. Lesbian Necromancers in Space. Write that down, Michael. You're the one with the pen in your hand. ok I did. i I am actually writing. I'm actually making notes. This is kind of a circle back to our vampire lesbians in episode one.
01:02:05
Speaker
But these are necromancers. It's in space. Okay. Next question, Nicole. want to write that musical. Sorry. That might be the gayest thing I've ever said. But like... Okay, Nicole, you need a good laugh or the person coming to you says, I need a really good laugh. and a laugh. laugh fuck I just want to laugh.
01:02:23
Speaker
Ooh, a funny book. My favorite. Okay, this isn't queer, but one of my favorite books of all time. I mean, reading is queer. Like yeah everything we can claim it. We're doing it, so we can claim it. yeah Thing Explainer.
01:02:37
Speaker
Thing Explainer. By Randall Monroe, who does XKCD, the webcomic. Okay. And- He describes complicated things using the 100 most common words in English. So it's like, a won play that game shuttle Oh my gosh. And it's like, you know, explodey thing, like zoom, zoom fast thing. exploding thing jump hoper Jump off earth, yeah jump off ground real high. Exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh, Shelly, sorry, with your AP students, uhuh give them 100 words to like explain whatever you're reading. The relationship between Edward Fairfax's broadcaster and Jane.
01:03:18
Speaker
Please, right now, It's 100 most common words in the English language. Okay, I'm just going to claim right now this is a board game that the three of us are card game that the three of us need to make immediately.
01:03:31
Speaker
Okay. Michael's our idea guy. Okay. Sorry. so you know I love it. i love it. Yeah. All right. Next question. Someone mentions blank book and you can't stop nodding. Like, yes, agree, agree, agree.
01:03:47
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, um, abolition for the people by Colin Kaepernick. Oh, okay. Um, it's a really great primer to prison and police abolition. And when someone brings it up, I guess this is kind of like cheating. Cause like, I'm always the one that's like, have you heard about this book? like But you are nodding. yeah As long as you're nodding, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. yeah When someone's like, do you have this? Or like any of the authors that are in that book, like, do you have something by this person? I'm like, yes, we do. Yes. Let me take you to that section. yeah Please check them out. Yeah.
01:04:23
Speaker
Okay. Beautiful. Okay. Then last question, the best queer nonfiction that you've read recently or ever. Hmm. Best queer nonfiction.
01:04:35
Speaker
um
01:04:39
Speaker
Well, so i my favorite one has historically been Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers by Lillian Faderman. Okay. um It's a really good like history of queer women specifically in the United States, but it's kind of a narrow focus. So there's been some criticism on her,
01:05:01
Speaker
criticism of some ah
01:05:06
Speaker
I would say I'm a little more trepidatious about her current writing. Okay. But that book is kind of a classic. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Nice. Oh my gosh. Well, we've already got at least seven books out of five questions. I know. We're going to have to do for summer reading now. places so yeah oh yes, there are seven.
01:05:26
Speaker
So there you go. I was counting. ah I, yeah you guys, my bedside book stack is already too high. Also, I'm currently reading Dungeon Crawler Carl, which is like bubblegum fiction. Is that like a like a cozy – what do they call it Carl. What's his name?
01:05:48
Speaker
No, no. Dungeon Crawler Carl by Matt. I don't have the book with me. oh yeah. It's it's basically – It's super pulpy. Yeah. Oh, right, right, right. Okay. Yeah. Lit RPG. Cozy lit RPG. Yes. So i'm I'm looking for something a bit more meaty next, and I think I've got a pretty good list here. So thank you.
01:06:13
Speaker
Yay. I love that. Okay. So, Nicole, you are – just ticking every box right now. um And we're loving it so much. um So tell us about like the future for you. Like what is the future that Nicole is working towards? Like how do books and your queerness and the community-ness of your work like play into what you hope to do in the future?
01:06:42
Speaker
Yeah. i hope to be an advocate. um And I hope to keep connecting people with information, yeah um like books for leisure, books for fun, but also not just books, but information, newsletters, podcasts, the internet, articles, like ways of hearing about and learning about different perspectives. That's, I think so important. And I,
01:07:11
Speaker
especially for kids. Like I really believe that the greatest gift my parents gave me was completely unfettered access to books in the library and yeah kids should have their own library card that parents are not monitoring because my mom always said like, there's nothing in a book that's going to hurt you. Right. Right.
01:07:30
Speaker
Yeah. there's It's only going to open doors for you. yeah Books. That's all they do. They, they help us. see others see see others see ourselves see the world they help us grow our empathy and oh yes the mind's eye right like the ability to imagine imagining anything in my brain makes it real enough so like if i can imagine a space where i i mean we did that like all three of us like manifested
01:08:02
Speaker
The space, but, and I think also for all three of us, it was a movie, it was a book, it was a song, it was something. Nicole, I love that you are like, this um i first word that comes to my mind is wizard um second word that comes yeah i was just thinking like this like curator of imagination and i love northrop fries the educated imagination um and i think that you're kind of part of that like
01:08:36
Speaker
worldview where it's like let me help you imagine the world better so that you can see yourself better ah can everybody i mean i know this is post-covid world but i want like a kiss a librarian day can we do that can we just like hold a librarian's face I was you like, hold their cheeks, look them directly in the eye for a way too long day. And say thank you. Yes.
01:09:05
Speaker
Thank you. um Yeah. So thank you so much. um Okay. Last, like last, i love this question you know, serious question. If our conversation was a book.
01:09:17
Speaker
the one that we just had right now, what genre is it and where would you shelve us?
Reflections on Libraries and Conclusion
01:09:22
Speaker
Oh, we would be, we would be, okay, so follow me on this because we would be women's lit. Okay. man But we would be the kind where it's like, you're in a adorable seaside beach town and it's just like,
01:09:36
Speaker
friends having conversations about like the little minutia of their lives. Like, oh, the bake sale's coming up and we have to, but like we're actually talking about serious issues. Yes. Okay. And so we learned something along the way.
01:09:48
Speaker
So like el this fiction. So fiction, but like with, you know, contemporary issues. Yeah, because this has been just such a warm and fun conversation about like, just how, like joy, like queer joy. i think like yeah But you are, you have unlocked, like I've been surprised by joy in this conversation because you've unlocked like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find a corner wall to stare at and be like, when did you come out to yourself?
01:10:19
Speaker
Because that has like, totally blown the roof off of my head because There's so much there. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Maybe future episode. Maybe. Well, we do plan to do like Shelly's episode and my episode in kind of the same format. um How And you've just enriched it.
01:10:40
Speaker
h Yeah, for sure, for sure. And you're making me realize that my path on like lesbian literature was an exponential growth. So like I went from Annie on my mind to Ruby Fruit Jungle um by Rita Mae Brown to short stories by Anais Nin. Like, so I, you know, yeah yeah this coming out for me really was like by orders of magnitude. I love that. um Well, and also like real quick, David Sedaris was one of the first writers that made me fall in love with the short story form.
01:11:20
Speaker
And also him coming out humor. What is humor? I feel like humor across the queer community is like,
01:11:31
Speaker
It's language. Right. It's just a whole culture of, you know, when you said the word box or ticking boxes earlier, i was like, mm-hmm. you're a lesbian and you said take your boxes nicole do you understand why i've been friends with this man for so long oh well thank you so much nicole for sharing your roots with us thank you for having me this is so this has been so cozy like for real i i hope that and i know that uh nicole you're being this i'm instantly in this conversation i was just like oh
01:12:13
Speaker
Okay, I'm safe. I'm safe. This is good. yeah Thank you for that. yeah It's the cozy sweater. It's the comfy nook. it It's the approachable librarian. ah yes And it's been so great. So thank you so much. And if anybody, okay, if you want them to, how would people find you? Or if you're not into that, what would you tell them to do to find their own personal perfect librarian? Yeah.
01:12:41
Speaker
Oh yeah. Okay. So I'm not on anything. So unfortunately you can't find me on the internet. Um, you have to track me down, okay but, on a podcast um, yeah, go to your local library. Um, yeah find out who your, where your local library is, what library system you're in and either go there in person, or if you can't go to their website, cause most libraries, you can sign up for a virtual card and get access to eBooks right away. um,
01:13:08
Speaker
go visit the physical spaces because libraries are one of those third places that we're always looking for. And they can be intimidating at first, but it's, we hope to be approachable and we want you to come in and and see us. yeah Yes, absolutely. Oh, I love that.
01:13:27
Speaker
Makes me want to go to like my West Link library branch. I just want to go to West Link. Oh, I don't want to go too long here, but my hometown library, the entrance to the library was on the very edge of the building. And it was this corridor and the ceiling was all glass. And it was just lined with plants. Big, big, beautiful, awesome like elephant ear. like in mon stuff was yeah in In Southwest Kansas, you're not seeing these tropical plants. And it was tiled.
01:14:00
Speaker
And this cool tile. And there was like the bathrooms. And then the doors to the library were arched. Where you opened them. yeah It was so great. So magical.
01:14:12
Speaker
All right. Well, if you enjoy today's chat, subscribe to your Roots Are Showing on your favorite podcast situation. We're definitely, definitely on Spotify and Apple and all the places where you get your ear candy.
01:14:25
Speaker
Subscribe so you can get our episodes as soon as they come out every other Monday. And be sure to smash that follow button on Instagram and blue sky at Roots Are Showing Pod. Then tell your friends and click on all the stars.
01:14:41
Speaker
Special thanks to Scott Stone again for our magnificent music. You rule. Until next time, keep it kind, keep it queer, keep it coming. Thank you so much, Nicole.
01:14:52
Speaker
Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Bye.
01:15:19
Speaker
Thank you.