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Veterans Day Panel: Cyber Journeys, Skills Transition, and Lessons Learned
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🎙️ Veterans Day Podcast Panel!
We brought together an incredible panel of veterans who made the leap into cybersecurity:
George K and George A get into a raw and honest conversation about:
🔄 The realities of transitioning out to civilian life
😳 The culture shock of moving from military to corporate life
👏 Why military experience IS relevant experience (even if you think it isn't)
🤝 The power of networking and how to do it well
Many thanks to our panelists!
- Rick McElroy (USMC)
- Tom Marsland (US Navy)
- Larci Robertson (US Navy)
- Rafael Nuñez (US Air Force)
- and George A (Canadian Army)
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Transcript
Introduction and Reassurance
00:00:00
Speaker
And I was in vet sec talking to people freaking out and I still have a message that one of them sent me. And it was basically stop worrying about it because you have the skills, whether you think you do or not, you're going to show up to work and everybody there's faking it until they make it just like you think you're going to be doing. And you're going to show up and say, what's the problem? Okay, I got it. Let's do this, this, or this. And you're going to be decisive and you're going to do a little bit more than everybody else of your peers are doing. And you're going to be fine. So quit fucking worrying about it basically.
00:00:30
Speaker
Right? And yeah, it's true. It worked. So if you're thinking about it mentally and you think it's the time to go, just do it.
Podcast Introduction and Veterans Day Significance
00:00:45
Speaker
Yo, yo, yo, it's the show. This is Bare Knuckles and Brass Tax. This a podcast concerned with humanity in the industry. We're talking trust, respect, and everything in between. I'm George Kay with the vendor side. And I'm George A., Chief Information Security Officer.
00:01:02
Speaker
And today is a very special day. It is Veterans Day here in the US, Remembrance Day in Canada and abroad. And we have a panel of some kick-ass speakers, all of whom are veterans. Today we have Rick McElroy, formerly of the Marines, Rafael Nunez, formerly of the Air Force, Larsi Robinson, US s Navy.
00:01:23
Speaker
Thomas Marsland, also Navy, and of course, you, George A. Canadian Army. So I don't really know how to sum up this episode because there's so much in here. It's incredible.
00:01:35
Speaker
i think I think really, the as is the norm, the vets came and carried the load for us. oh yes Really, I think what this was was really good inside perspective on what to do when you want to get out.
Military to Civilian Career Transition
00:01:50
Speaker
How do you try to get out? How do you find that transition? How do you work through the psychological um you know hurdles that you have to jump through? And you know I hope for the listeners, veteran or otherwise,
00:02:02
Speaker
if you If you have doubts and you have, you know, any sort of snag about trying to take a shot in cyber or any type of career transition you're going for, this is the episode. This is the episode you want to listen to. These are the vets you want to listen to. These are the folks you want to connect with, because I got to tell you, this was probably of our over 100 episodes. This was one of my favorite ones to record. And these guys were all awesome guys. Plus, largely, excuse me, they were all awesome.
00:02:31
Speaker
Yeah. Incredible real conversations about their experience, their trials and travails and transitioning to civilian life, but also some real nuggets in there about how you value your experience from the military and to not take those things for granted. Um, yeah, so enough of us, we're going to turn it over to them. Hey everyone. Welcome to bare knuckles and brass tacks.
00:02:55
Speaker
Hey, hey, nice to see you. Hey, joy there we go. There we go. All right, gang, we are going to start with a very quick backstory. So let's tell the listeners, you know, what branch did you enter and then how did you find your way from day one of boot camp over to cyber in, you know, like roughly three to five sentences. Rick, you're the first on my screen, so we will start with you.
00:03:23
Speaker
Oh, no, only three to five. I'm going to take up everyone's time. Rick McElroy, USMC, ah raised my hand on my 17th birthday. And after meeting my wife, I had to figure out ah what could a machine gunner do with all of those skills that they were given while in the Marine Corps? Well, the answer is not much. I got some really good advice from my stepdad, who was former ah Navy and now had transitioned out and was working for some government contractors, went to school and that kicked off the rest of cyber.
00:03:51
Speaker
Nice. Uh, Tom. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Tom Marsland. Uh, 22 years in the U S Navy. I also joined when I was 17. I was always interested in computers and all the recruiter lied to me. So I was going to get it on the second go around. Um, I found my way to a nonprofit that I now work with that sec and, uh, from the people there networked my way in and I've been here ever since. Nice. Larcy. Hi, Larcy Robertson, U S Navy, almost 10 years.
00:04:21
Speaker
I was a cryptologic technician two years in college, didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I'm one of the lucky ones that actually got to do some cyber um in the Navy um at the Navy Cyber Defense Operations Command. Actually, I have a plank owner plaque back here behind me um and finished off doing signals intelligence and then transitioned from government contracting into corporate America in the last seven years. Nice. All right, Rafael, bring it home.
00:04:49
Speaker
Awesome. Rafael Nunez, U.S. Air Force. I originally came in at services. That will make sense to Air Force personnel. Had a really good mentor reach out, told me, hey, computers are the future. I crossed train of the three and a half year mark. And shortly after, I applied for a special duty that involved working with classified information and instead of service security. And that was back in 2000. And I've never looked back. Contracting, civil service, public sector in the last 10 years. It's been fun.
00:05:15
Speaker
Nice. And I think our listeners have heard it before, George, but you are a vet, so you might as well share your story, too, for the sake of our guests. Very cool, friends. Just like you guys, I had no clue what to do with my life when I was 17, so I joined the army. And I actually was a former artillery gunner. Then on exercise, someone overheard me speaking Arabic, because that's my native tongue.
00:05:40
Speaker
And they were like, oh cool, we work SIOPs. You need to not be doing combat arms anymore. So I found myself in a career in SIGINT. I was just pulling out my intelligence unit coins. Largely, it's very wonderful to speak to you. I'm sure we probably worked together on operations and only knew each other as a call sign. ah But yeah, I ended up in cyber also by accident because I reached the point in my army career where I was like, cool, I don't want to do this anymore. What else am I doing with my life?
00:06:06
Speaker
So that is the perfect segue to our first question. So CSO, why don't you kick us off? Very cool. Thank you, sir.
Challenges in Transition
00:06:15
Speaker
So friends. And this is a question that you know we all deal with at some point as vets, but how did you know when it was time to pull pin and what resources were immediately available to you to help? And are these resources branch and unit dependent? and And just for listeners, if we have folks who are in the armed services right now who are thinking about pulling pin, this question is aimed for you because oftentimes I remember from my time back in like 2015, 2016, we had next to no resources for transitioning out.
00:06:47
Speaker
It was pretty much you're off on your ass and good luck, bud. See you at the pension. um Yeah, that was about my experience. It was a two day. Two day. Hey, thank you for your service. We'll see you later and don't come back on base. And and then we had to figure it out. But um I did want to caveat that by saying my brother actually just retired out of the army of 20 years of service. a Ranger.
00:07:10
Speaker
Delta Forces. So shout out to John McElroy, but his experience much different. um So I would say ah his experience seemed to be a little more tailored to his background, tailored to what he did. um And it was about a two and a half month program, I think all all told. um So I think there's some better resources that community has certainly built um better resources to support themselves. But for me personally, um it was kind of fun. And this was pre Internet, right? So like,
00:07:36
Speaker
finding other vets at places you work and huddling together in the darkness to fix things. Yeah. Bro, it's just the smoke pit, but go on. Yeah. And then ah
Impact of Family and Resources
00:07:45
Speaker
on pulling the pin, I think you know when it's time. I think the rest of it is just um all really coming to terms with what that means for you, your unit, your group and overall your service to to the nation. Yeah. No. Larcie, how about you go next?
00:08:00
Speaker
Mine was definitely um ah dependent on my family life so of pulling the pen, so per se. um But it was not a good experience. It was 2009. We had a TAP program, transitioning as assistant Transition Assistance Program, I guess. um And I'll just tell you one thing that they taught me was to start a LinkedIn page. However, they told me to set it up with my email. Well, what email do you think I set it up with as a sailor at the time?
00:08:28
Speaker
my work email, my ship's email. And so when I left and had no longer had access to my email, I no longer had a LinkedIn either. So it didn't happen to that again for a couple of years. just it was It was a very rushed um experience. I don't think I really learned much at all. And um now I'm hearing about Skillbridge. So I work for a company called Red Sense Threat Intelligence, and they actually hire from the Skillbridge, do internships, and they get to work alongside um transitioning um service members. So I am so happy that they've changed these things for the rest of the service members leaving.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah, we'll go to you, Rafael, because Tom, I think we're going to round home here to a little bit more about what Vetsik is doing. Right on. I pulled the pin. um I got to deploy a lot in my career, um supporting different units as a solo troop doing comm with the Army Marines and whatnot. And in one of those deployments, my second my my first daughter was born while I was in Iraq. So it was time. You know, people would conveniently schedule surgeries to to not deploy. And I would say, if you don't want to deploy, that's all we're here for. Get the hell out. So I had to look at that myself in the mirror, get the hell out.
00:09:38
Speaker
So i took my CISSP, you know, interviewed, learned about, got rid of the stigma about contractors only have work once a year or every, you know what I mean, on a yearly basis, you may not get renewed and all that got passed that fear. I will tell you that they were just like, you know, just like Rick stated, there were little resources, you know, whatever templates or guidance,
00:09:59
Speaker
was like handed down from 1980, right? Make a resume, buy a suit, you know, stuff like that. The whole LinkedIn creation for me was 2010. But also on the flip side, it was like, there was no support. It was frowned upon like, oh, you're leaving. We've invested time in you. Okay, you want to be a civilian. And I remember that one of the contingencies I created for myself was passing the CISSP before going out to get a job as a contractor. And I said, hey, that bootcamp you guys been pushing on me, I'm ready to take it. And they said, no, you have no retention. Where would we invest $5,000 on you when you're leaving? And I'm like, but haven't I earned it for having been here 10 years? So that was kind of my experience. um Very little guidance on how to fend for yourself, the suit, the resume, the LinkedIn profile, um and ah you know let your beard grow out.
00:10:49
Speaker
Yeah, nice. ah Respect the beard. So Tom, ah other bearded individual on the call, talk a little bit about ah your experience and then like let's let's get into like what
Cultural Adjustments in Civilian Workforce
00:11:02
Speaker
you're hearing from folks coming through VetSec also.
00:11:05
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. You know, I, I left the military just this past year. Um, so the transition assistance program has definitely seen some, some growth since, uh, 2009, 2010, but this it's still the basics, right? It's still get a LinkedIn, get a suit. Here's some places you could do that. You know, um, Hey,
00:11:25
Speaker
don't just write one big resume, make sure to write others. Um, but they don't really teach you a lot of the house. It was a two day course for me. And frankly, I, the stuff that I, that they passed down was stuff that I'd already learned from people who had left before me. So there's still a lot of pass down of kind of that tribal knowledge, definitely still a stigma around, uh,
00:11:48
Speaker
When you decide to leave, it's okay, we're done with you. you know The VA is there to take care of you on the other side, but you've you've stepped away from us, so we're done with you. um Fortunately, I had a commander that...
00:11:59
Speaker
left me to my own devices for my last six, nine months to work on that stuff myself. So I took advantage of the skill bridge program and was very fortunate. um What I'm hearing from other people leaving now in my role at VetSec is very similar. There aren't a lot of resources and the ones that they can find are from nonprofits, people on the outside, you know, I mean, the transition provider instructor I had was somebody who retired from the military and got a job as a transition instructor. So it's not like they knew what it was like on the outside either. Right. So, so very similar.
00:12:44
Speaker
First off, let's say, Raphael, something you said triggered me, because in Canada, what they love to do, they'll send you on the high-end expensive courses. They'll send you on the SANS course and all that. They just won't pay for you to do the exam.
00:12:58
Speaker
You don't actually get the call. They'll skill you up. Yeah. And that's why they didn't fail because then it's really frowned upon. Like, don't you dare ask to attend the conference? or and I didn't have the misfortune of failing while I was in the military, but sure enough, it it was like, you know what I mean? like like You know, girl, if you fail, you're in remedial fuck you wasteland. You're doing the falters after work for like a month.
00:13:22
Speaker
shit But yeah, it's an actual question. How did you guys find your early days transitioning into life on Civi Street? like Was there a massive culture shock at your first civilian employer? Or did you feel your military experience actually gave you an advantage compared to your non-vet colleagues?
00:13:42
Speaker
Um, both, but mostly the former. Um, I mean, dude, I, I got out at 20, 21. Um, so, you know, I was my whole adult life. I was a Marine and I was a grunt. So we speak differently. We talk differently, all of those things. And then, uh, my first job out of school was at a reseller, basically doing managed services and deployments of, you know, gear during production.
00:14:10
Speaker
you know people are making semiconductors. So I just kind of tucked and rolled with it. um I think I've had some pretty good mentors along the way, but I would certainly say I think the place where I kind of learned most of those skills was when I went over to Booz Allen after that. um I always say they kind of turned me into a security professional, really taught me about client management, you know accounting on time and all of the things that you really need to put the career together. But it was really, really tough and still is a challenge for everybody that I talk to that's getting out Yeah, so consulting, finishing school. A little bit, yeah, a little bit, yeah. You know, initially, I also went to some of the you know big names, GDIT, but I was working for the government still, so it seemed very normal. um But i I got my first like corporate America job in 2018.
00:15:03
Speaker
um That was a huge shift because now I need to you know use the sandwich method as I was taught for emailing. you know If I email somebody in the military, I can just ask the question and be done. But in corporate America, you actually actually have to give a salutation. Hello, how I hope your day is good. you know Here's the question and I hope you have another you know hope your week is fantastic. Please get back to me soon. you know Those kinds of things. that was That was a little interesting because I was like, oh my gosh, they they think I'm brash. i was That was the words. I was told like, you got to soften this. I'm like, I'm just trying to get an answer. How much work do we need to put into this? I'll just walk over there. like what's the difference But anyways, that was a different sum. And for me, you know, the shift in um ah the feeling in your office in a place where there's windows is much different than in a place with no windows. So it's kind of a brighter, cheerier people are a little more happy to show up to work with a little different, um just different. I don't know. And likes life in a skiff. What are you talking about? yeah
00:16:12
Speaker
You know exactly what I'm talking about. yeah we i good good yeah Other than that, like I think I did okay. Luckily, um I got to work alongside at least one veteran to go to to say, you know what's what's going on here? Because I definitely shook my head to a lot of acronyms I thought I knew. um And I did know them, but they were not the same.
00:16:36
Speaker
That's fair. That's interesting.
Adapting to New Work Environments
00:16:38
Speaker
um Tom, what was that ah was that transition like? you know i I think I'm still in the culture shock phase right now. ah you know Coming out, my my retirement was only about eight months ago now, um and this is my first job. maybe It's the company I scourged at, but I went straight from you know the Navy submarine force and working in a skiff on shore to working from home fully remote at a startup with 20 people.
00:17:05
Speaker
Uh, it's a very different environment. I'm still learning the right way to speak to people, especially our clients, uh, because I'm very much like, just tell me the answer. Same as Larcy for sure. Um, and have definitely rubbed people the wrong way sometimes. Uh, but I think as far as the skillset that, that all of us bring, I think what what I think has led me to be successful so far is just the willingness to keep staying at it until the until the shit gets done. Damn, yeah. All right, Rafael, bring it home. How about that transition? Yeah, like some others ah here, my my my first two jobs were contracting in civil service, so you were still in the family, you know, very similar climate, um working in a skiff and whatnot. However, my first corporate job at Lowe's Corporate, ah yeah, freaking out over over having myself one in my pocket,
00:17:58
Speaker
um understanding that there was a there was a standard so nothing against my my civilian counterparts there was a standard but it wasn't the military standard right nobody was banging on your door because you're missing a dental appointment or uh for being late or whatever so i really i realized soon like wow like the the the potential for complaining here is so recurring like everybody you know i mean oh my god we're gonna do this today we're gonna stay five minutes late whatever and i'm like so i would still bring up stuff like adapt and overcome you know make your body do and things like that um so it became um became easy but the addressing people
00:18:31
Speaker
Like, you know, everything in the military, like, very respectfully, hey, sir, blah, blah, blah. It's like, hey, Tom. And it's like, people, hey, you want to have a beer and lunch? And like, what? Like, what is, you know what I mean? So that laxness took a while. um i had I had a high degree of respect for hierarchy. And suddenly it's like, if you were after hours, every, you know, gloves were off, everybody was equal and whatnot. So, um but yeah, it was ah it was quite interesting. different Different standards, you know, not judging, but different.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah. And ah actually, I don't know this story for you, George. What was that like for you? Um, so when I first left, I actually took a foray at being like ah an entrepreneur and I built a couple of really janky apps that were like, one of them was like a drinking game app that I tried to sell to a bunch of local bars, like just using anything. Cause I kind of in the same position as Rick, it's like, well, I, I did SIGINT and I blew things up for a few years and like, I can speak a couple of different dialects of Arabic.
00:19:31
Speaker
How useful is that for money? question mark um and i completely like I had a professional services contract with the government. It was doing good for a couple months and then things dried up because of ah a budget shift. and I ended up getting into a SOC job, level one analyst,
00:19:49
Speaker
in like October 2016 because one of my best friends who I also served in SIGINT with for over 10 years happened to work at a SOC and he hooked me up with an interview with the manager and the manager just happened to be one of those guys that like, I don't care if you have no certs, no quals. Are you a critical thinker? Are you a good team fit?
00:20:08
Speaker
So I realized now that that manager has been ahead of his time because he gave me an opportunity um that I think a lot of folks nowadays just don't seem to get in the hiring process. Just a guy who meets you and is like, hey, I know you have no formal like education in this, but I think you're a good guy and you're worth a shot. And that's how I got in.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's awesome. um Rick, I ah have had the privilege of meeting your brother as he was transitioning out of the army. I guess we have kept this fairly personal, but you all are on this panel because you have worked with your peers and trying to get them into cyber or or help others. What are you hearing from them now that you're kind of like you've been out, but it's a little bit more contemporary. So like Rick, for example, like what were some of the things that you saw your brother in terms of maybe, quote unquote, business world skill set, you know, working through or trying to adapt to. Yeah, like language, process, policies, um the way business works versus, you know, the way JSOC works. That's a it's just a it's just it's just massively different. Right. So I was actually speaking to him um yesterday. and And yeah, I think for him also, um one of the other things ah I think John, as well as other that struggle with is
00:21:28
Speaker
Um, jobs seem pretty mundane after something like that. Um, so, you know, sitting down on a keyboard for four hours and plugging numbers into a thing seems like, what am I doing here? Right? Like that's not a mission. Um, and so I think, um, again, keeping the focus on what that mission is, what, what are the things that, um, You now personally want to bring those skills to in the world. So your time, talent and wisdom. And that can be all kinds of different stuff. It doesn't have to be cyber. um But but like keeping that true passion and true north and then making sure you're working on those things, not um working on a bunch of stuff just because you feel like you got to stay busy. Yeah. OK. Anyone else have any insight from peers or friends who've who either recently or just made the transition after you? I'm curious because
00:22:15
Speaker
Uh, I've said it many times, but cultural anthropologists by training, right? And so I am sensitive to the idea that you are trained to operate in one culture and then.
Cultural Challenges and Mental Health
00:22:25
Speaker
you know, handshake, go, switch gears, as we would say, but a culture is an entire universe, like how you operate and move through the world. And, you know, even something as banal as like you meet the partner and do a handshake is going to feel different to somebody who, as you said, Rafael, lived and worked in a hierarchy that's different than the quote unquote business. hiarch i would I would shift to prompt a little bit because um we're looking at time now in 2024. Let's imagine this question as well.
00:22:54
Speaker
say in like 2009 to 2014. And I know that from my experience with a lot of my buddies, they had um some really bad things happen to them. And transitioning to the Civi world um really, really wasn't a good time. A couple of them made some pretty harsh decisions and and now we commemorate them once a year.
00:23:17
Speaker
But um you know i think I think it's tough when not everyone's military experience is the same. And I think this question for folks who go through some heavier shit and the big green machine doesn't really support them versus folks who have a really good experience, I think it might be a bit different. So I think what we're trying to kind of get to is like,
00:23:39
Speaker
if you've seen some folks who maybe didn't have like kind of the the best start when they tried to go into the civvy world and how did they find that path to to getting back on their feet and recovering? Because I think there's a lot of folks silently that are suffering through that because the mental health thing is still a problem. I don't know if you guys have any friends or experiences to share. You don't have to give any names or anything respecting their privacy, but I'm sure we all have stories.
00:24:07
Speaker
I think I see that more in a positive light. So in the military, it's like, you know, mental health, your weapon gets taken away, you're crazy, you're gonna get put in a corner, somebody's gonna try their, you know, their hardest to, to, to med bore you out. You know, it's just what it is. You are, I mean, you were even told, I don't care what you're going through, don't tell them you're depressed. If you want to go on this deployment, you know, don't tell them you have depression.
00:24:33
Speaker
You know, I mean, so you're told seek help, but at the same time, at least when I was in, that's what it was like. But then you come out and you realize that half of the, you know, your staff is in, you know, anxiety medicine openly, right, on ADHD medication, antidepressants and everything else. And it's so much, you know, so much more open, you know, I have have an appointment with my shrink and whatnot.
00:24:55
Speaker
So in that part, I think more so not not in the negative sense of people not having things go their way because of what they saw and what they endured and they got no support. um um For me, it's it's more of a positive thing I've witnessed of people finally getting the help they need because you're so open. There is a place for you here.
00:25:15
Speaker
You know, you you are, we are inclusive in the, you know, corporate America is going to be inclusive in the way of saying, you know, you may need a mental day and we understand that you have these struggles and you're a veteran um more so than the military itself where you acquired that trauma. So.
00:25:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think I i would just add, um but my my family might be a little unique, maybe not. and We've had people serve, I think, since World War I. So I think our family and the support um that we've that we've had for for vets, specifically in other combat theaters, right? So uncles in Vietnam, you know grandparents who fought in World War II.
00:25:52
Speaker
Um, and, and yeah, so I would say it has gotten better. Um, albeit, um, and, and I want to, uh, emphasize some Raphael saying here inside of the corporate structure itself, if they're a large enough um entity, um, they're, they're gonna understand these things. Um, but.
00:26:08
Speaker
That's not the reality for a lot of shops, right? I live in San Diego. um we're We're pretty good about it, but I've been to all kinds of regions. um And so what I hear is there's towns like San Diego that um there's a great ah community structure in place. There's great corporate structure. um We actually favor hiring vets and helping them out when they transition out. But then you go to towns like Boston and you hear things from the vets out there where they're like, we can't get jobs.
00:26:33
Speaker
It's thought up differently when you don't have a college degree and it didn't go to Northeastern or you know a school that's out there trying to get a job. right So you still kind of see some bias um in either direction. There's either favorable bias um for a hiring for all of the reasons that I think these vets have stated. Or um there's an implicit bias like we're hard to work with, we're a little curt, and maybe some days you know um we're going to be struggling with some stuff. Yeah. Very tough.
00:27:05
Speaker
lacy I have my experiences. Um, these things that we're talking about tend to make me say, Hey veterans, go seek out other veterans to work with because they're more understanding and it's easier to fit in, I guess, but that's not a, that's not a good answer because you can't always find that. So we're going to have to, you know, give, give the advice to be open about those things and be able to say.
00:27:30
Speaker
hey, I want to do this job. im I know that I'm really good at it. But there's one aspect that I am just not okay with because of my you know anxiety. um And I'm not going to be able to do that. Being open with that um in the in the job is working with um you know my colleagues in over the last few years, realizing that they're they are coming out and saying that. saying i don't' I'm not a not I'm going to be on your team player. I just, this is not a good fit for me in this particular thing, but I'll take this other, you know, give me something over here to do. I'll grind it that you don't want. um Those things, I think I was a little shocked by it actually, um how how a lot of service members now are coming out and saying like, I can't do that job. It gives me too much. And and it can be, ah ah you know, many different things, either speaking in front of people or, you know, handling certain um
00:28:20
Speaker
certain things that we see on the internet, which are pretty bad. um that That's harsh stuff and and just saying, hey, i can't I'm really good at this, but i don't I'm not going to do that because of you know the things that I've experienced. But um I'm really glad that we're being more open about it than than before, because you're right. It was frowned upon. Don't say anything. or You're done.
00:28:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think i I see both sides of the coin. like There's definitely optimism in the fact that once you're out, you can go seek that that help if you need it. But there's also, like I've talked to quite a few of our members. We have a mental health channel in Vetsac. I've talked to a few of them in there who are resentful that they they spent all that time in the service and couldn't get the help when they felt they needed it the most.
Misconceptions about Cybersecurity Careers
00:29:06
Speaker
um you know I've had my own struggles during the time in the military and since separating and uh, I battle with that both ways. Um, I think that there's still veterans who, you know, that like you, you go back to that culture discussion, you know, they, they had it beat into their heads for so long. Hey, don't talk about it. It's going to affect your job basically. And I still have members. Well, I don't know if I can talk about that at work or.
00:29:34
Speaker
Hey, when I'm filling out this application, should I put that I'm a veteran with disabilities or not? Is that going to go to a hiring manager or not? you know So I guess I see both sides of it. um The thing that I'm seeing the most right now is there's a lot of veterans who I don't know if I want to say sold to false promise, but maybe you weren't educated completely on what the cybersecurity industry really was. I mean, we get 90% of new veterans who say they want to be hackers, right? When they joined that sec for the first time, and because that's the popular, exciting thing that they they see. um But they go through some form of training, boot camp, training provider, you name it, and are promised this big salary at the end and are finding out that's not the case, especially right now.
00:30:19
Speaker
So we have a lot of people who are coming out struggling in that way, too. Yeah, I call that the parasitic boot camp economy. It's just straight up snake oil. It's like the medicine roadshow just trying to sell people on a on a weird pipe dream. All right. We're going to take a break there and then we will be back for brass tacks.
00:30:48
Speaker
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00:31:30
Speaker
Many thanks to recent supporters Jessica, Jason, and Maria. We'd love to have yours too.
Preparation and Networking for Transition
00:31:43
Speaker
And we're back. Time to start the brass test section of the show where we're going to get real solution oriented for our listeners. And friends, I have um an easy kind of softball question because I'm sure you all have thoughts about this. What can service members do throughout their careers to enable an easier transition out when the time is right? And and folks go on with all sorts of different reasons. I knew more than likely the army wasn't going to be my lifetime job. So I was new from the start.
00:32:13
Speaker
I'm eventually going to bail out. So I need to you know do the right things and take the right courses and and kind of build the right relationships that I knew would benefit me strategically. And I knew this early on in my career. I found, however, a lot of folks that I served with just reached a certain point where their bodies broke or they mentally were just exhausted of it and they quit and they had no plan. And the no plan folks are the ones that like, you know, kind of make me cry a bit.
00:32:41
Speaker
So what do you guys think? how do you How do you set yourself up for a safe transition now?
00:32:48
Speaker
Yeah. um and And this is a role specific, right? So it kind of depends. Grunt's probably not going to benefit ah much from this advice. um But I think if I could have given myself some advice um looking back, one of the things I would say to people is like, find your civilian counterparts. And like, where are they meeting, right? So if you do want to get into cyber, like where do those folks who aren't in the military ah meet up? we We meet up all the time. They're pretty public where those things are. um you know if you're you know If you're really thinking about like career choices and there's lots of paths when you get out of the military, generally speaking, people are probably going to pick an MOS that speaks to them unless the recruiter lied to them like me. If you're in aviation, you're probably going to seek out say a path inside of Lockheed Martin or something like that as ah as a transitionary spot. um but But I would say I think that's one of the areas I would have told myself is like, hey, go go find the people who whatever you're looking to do,
00:33:47
Speaker
Right? So if it's cyber, if it's um AI, if it's something else, where are those people in the civilian world and like go hang out with those people? um They're pretty cool most of the time. um And they're probably going to be interested um in your perspective on things as well because they don't they don't know a lot of what they like. They hear about the military. They see things like jets.
00:34:07
Speaker
But they don't understand everything about it, like how it works, um how more people um don't get injured and harmed and all of those things. And I think we've got some good lessons for them too. So yeah, go find people um that do that job and hang out with them earlier.
00:34:22
Speaker
yeah document your, um basically make your resume civilian friendly as you go. um Because it's really hard to do it all at once, but what's you' ah once you're out. um But it'll be helpful to understand because the other part of this too, is that i which is what I say to most, um even grunts, when they say, I have no experience. Yes, you do. You do have experience. However many years of your ah of your job,
00:34:50
Speaker
and I also want to remind everyone that the military starts your security practices the day you join. You now have an ID card that's tied to you, a number that's tied to you. You know you can't leave the base and come into the base without checking with someone. There's tons of controls in place around your um you know assets that you're being given. i mean There's just an understanding. Yes, you do have some experience when it comes to security. and you If you want to you know be smart about it, use that as a you know reference to when you're applying to these jobs, when you say, I don't have security i don't i or I don't have experience. I want to like strike that from every service member's maps because it's not true. You have lots of experience, just not specific to the job that you're looking for probably today from the grunt to a cybersecurity analyst or
00:35:39
Speaker
but No, yeah, I really love that. I think that is definitely the thing I hear the most is, oh, but like, I don't have experience, meaning I don't move things around in an Excel spreadsheet or I know pivot tables or whatever the hell. But it's but it's like, you can't discount years of service as no, quote unquote, experience. Right. um Yeah. ah Tom, how about you?
00:36:03
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to go with networking myself. Rick kind of jumped on that a little bit. But I think service members are at a unique advantage in that regard. you know When I was in the military for 22 years, I moved nine times. that's That's nine different areas that I could go to conferences for careers I was interested in that I could have been meeting with people in the civilian world. um So my other flavor on that is join a veteran service organization while you're still on active duty.
00:36:28
Speaker
um There's nonprofits like that sec, but there's also, you know, VFW, DAV, those kinds of organizations as well where you're going to meet people that you have something in common with that might be doing a role you're interested in the civilian world as well. um And from there, the last thing I'd say is find a mentor. Find somebody while you're in that is on that outside that's a few years ahead of you down that same road that you're looking to go down and kind of latch onto them, ask them questions, you know. Obviously,
00:36:57
Speaker
Do stuff for them too, right? It's it's not just transactional, but but make a real connection with somebody on the outside. I wouldn't be where I am right now if it wasn't for networking. i wouldn't ah Applying on websites just doesn't get people anywhere anymore, I don't think.
00:37:12
Speaker
ah hundred time Can I ask a question about the mentorship? And this might be just a little bit of ignorance because I've been building the company and haven't been paying attention for a few months. Is there an existing mentorship program through Vetsec? Is that something you're looking to build? Because I would be happy to throw some time in and help um where we could if that's something that you're looking to do.
00:37:30
Speaker
We do have a program largely staffed by our volunteers. I mean, the whole org is volunteer led. So we have volunteers that have been in the industry for some time who are picking up people who are asking for mentors. um you know there's There's plenty of other organizations out there, right? That's just one. Operation Code has a mentorship program. um Unfortunately, Vetterati closed down, but that was a fantastic place as well.
00:37:53
Speaker
um
00:37:57
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks, Tom.
00:38:29
Speaker
Okay. So Tom, you mentioned networking, I think a thousand percent. um I think networking is also a skill. It's a thing that people say to do, but it is a skill that needs to learn, right? Especially as we've discussed, if you feel like you're in a ah culture where you have a certain rank, it might feel sort of like.
00:38:53
Speaker
of order to just like go up a lot of things. start talking um But ah that takes me to my question, which is you could talk a little bit about the one that you took military from your personal experience that you were like, Oh, this turned out to kind of like be a superpower, like, ah you know, whether it was like that sense of mission or or whatever. And then like, what is the skill that you really wished you had been able to hone. And that was like your school of hard knocks in the business world. Like you had to to really focus on that because that was not in your universe as a service member. Yeah, absolutely. ah Fish out of water. The whole business aspect, not understanding the terminology and not not being used to running a business, but running a mission, right? Outcome based. That changed everything, right? The whole bottom line and profit margins, all these things.
00:39:47
Speaker
um I will tell you that a lot of a lot of veterans have this expectation. I have a clearance ah that'll get my foot in the door. I am a veteran. I'll have preference. The moment you decide that you're gonna get out, that's when your journey begins. And the destination is that dream job. And that's when you start start networking, start figuring who people are. Where do I wanna live? right And get a good understanding of what that salary is. Once you come in here,
00:40:15
Speaker
and you've realized that you could have been 20, 30% higher, that that will never happen. Somebody will come and get hired tomorrow, less experienced, and leapfrog you based on their ability to negotiate, right? So um finding people to cling onto and speaking as you would once you're out, um getting that LinkedIn profile going and reaching out to folks, people people that have made it love telling people how to get there.
00:40:40
Speaker
While you're still trying to get there, you can't do much for someone else. But if you've made it, you want to tell people, this is exactly what I did. When it comes to anything, shopping, career, success. um ah did And i one thing I had is that I wish I had crafted one particular skill set, one particular thing, versus this is all my experience. This is where I've been tossed in in my career in the military.
00:41:04
Speaker
But this is the one thing I'm going to hone now that I know I'm going to get out. I'm going to be an app security expert. I'm going to be a vulnerability management guy. I did have a good um a good expertise ah base, which is doing with certification, accreditation, and things like that, understanding how systems, you know how to put a package together to get something approved and how to tie it to a framework. But I felt that I hadn't sharpened my axe as much as I wish I had ah prior to getting out.
00:41:31
Speaker
The thing I should have done more of, paperwork and politics, because after all, when you get to be a CISO, most of that job is paperwork and politics, and they don't teach you any of that. ah Yeah, that would have been great. um But I would say um what's been interesting for me and really thinking about, um it was two superpowers, self-discipline, I think the Marine Corps taught me, and then the ability to go anywhere and just adapt to whatever's happening.
00:41:55
Speaker
I've been thrown in a lot of rooms before I probably had enough experience to get there and in enough situations that just make you uncomfortable all the time. um Whether that's the first time you're briefing a board or the first time you're talking to a CEO or the first time you're responsible for a budget. All of those things are um all places you haven't been and no one's trained you for, right? So um yeah, but the ability to just improvise, adapt to what's around you and learn fast. Yeah.
00:42:23
Speaker
I'm just not sure still. like i i there's nothing I learned so to be so versatile um in the Navy because they move you every two you you know movie you and it's a new job every time. I had a completely set of new set of tools. um I had a completely different environment. I went from one large ship to a shore duty to another size ship that had completely different tools.
00:42:45
Speaker
um I definitely took that with me and then I was married to another so service member and when I got out and followed him around as well and had to change jobs everywhere I went. I guess the one thing that you know I did continuously is treated looking for a job like a job.
00:43:02
Speaker
um i It took me a little bit to figure that out. If I really wanted a job, I really had to work hard to do it. I couldn't just depend on a job fair because that's not going to cut it. You got to follow those up. You got to keep going um because they don't typically call you back. You're going to have to call them. and Yes, yes like but I sent my resume in. I did. I gave it to someone at that time. They were still taking paper resumes when I was doing it at first. but um Yeah, i i I don't know, I wish maybe I would have not been afraid to talk to the higher ups, um you know, in the hiring process, um not been afraid to to seek them out instead of just the, you know, somebody I might work with.
00:43:44
Speaker
Um, that would been way more helpful and faster, I think. Um, but yeah, I, I think I was timid just because of that culture of the hierarchy. Like I shouldn't talk to the, you know, the executive. I should probably talk to the analyst. Um, so I guess that would be what it would be. Don't be afraid to, to look for, you know, the boss. Nice. I like it. Tom, how are you finding it?
00:44:09
Speaker
I would say, kind of going back to what Rafael said, yeah i was I was very fortunate with networking. I was able to land at the role I'm at, which is a relatively senior role at my company. um so But I think if I had had a better understanding of how the business operated and how businesses in general operated, I would have been better positioned to negotiate better.
00:44:32
Speaker
I would have been a little bit more assertive when I first stepped into the role, unless timid to put my foot down on these are the way things should be. Because I think any service member ah knows what's right in their gut um and can make decisions based on that. ah The strength that I think I bring and it's common with everyone is is just to do a little bit more than your peers and and go get shit done. At the end of the day, the people that are clocking out at five o'clock on the dot
00:45:04
Speaker
versus the people in my company that are staying till 505 to wrap something up that needs to get done that day. Our our leadership notices that stuff and and it it stands out to them. Yeah. um On the subject of resumes,
00:45:21
Speaker
I don't remember when it was a few jobs ago. A friend of ours gave me a different template. So normally the resume you think of like, it's just experience, right? And I think, Larsi, that's where people see like, they're not filling in a lot of bullets, so I must not have the experience. But this resume template, which took me way too long to reform my my brain around, was like more core competencies up front.
00:45:46
Speaker
and I think like positioning skills. So like you have both you and Rick have both mentioned like literally the ability to just adapt. like Put me on new tooling tomorrow, like I'll learn it. like That's a thing that most people in the civilian world I think are not comfortable because that culture is one that values expertise and mastery, less so like just thrown in and and figure it out. but So i'm I'm just thinking through like how can you present skills in a way that matches more to a job than just like listing duties and obligations from past positions.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny as Larcie might know this pain too. I was kind of triggered when you were talking that example, George, because in the SI world, I remember my first operational mission after school, I got thrown in to like CSC, which is like our version of like this the NSA. And ah they were like, cool, here's the mission. Here's what you got to do. Here are your accesses. Here are your tools. And I'm like, do I get any training? And they're like, we have reading files.
00:46:48
Speaker
Literally a year later into the mission, then I went on a formalized course for two months. I think you know that pain. Yeah, I got no, there was no training for the tools that I got thrown into for my first job either. You went out, yeah I was in school for nine months. None of that translated to the job they actually gave me. And half of that course is like when your clearance is high enough, we'll tell you about it.
00:47:14
Speaker
yeah yeah But yeah, I digress. But yeah, guys, like I mean, I mean, how do you guys really capture, I guess, the nuance of what you guys do? So for for me, like, when i'm going through the exercise, I tried to frame everything that I did in my own words. So like, when someone said networking, networking sound like this big, scary task that I have to go do when it's all formalized. Networking is literally just like,
00:47:45
Speaker
going to the smoke pit and sharing a cigarette with a guy or like going to the bar and like hey man why don't you go ahead of me or hey I saw you split your drink I got you another one why don't you come sit with us like that's that's networking that's how you get a job and and at the end of the day I know there's the resume process and all the things and then all the stuff we tell people to do I went to my buddy who I served with and was like, Hey dude, are you guys hiring? And I think that's how it kind of works for most people. So do you guys find that trying to break it down into a language that you understand could be a helpful tool?
Communication and Networking Skills
00:48:22
Speaker
Yeah. 100%. Absolutely. I mean,
00:48:26
Speaker
think I think most people that that I see in Vetsac, they show up and it's just tell me what to do. Don't use big fancy words. Just give me the procedure. you know Give me the process. How do I do it? Tell me what the hell to go do. So yeah, absolutely. ah Yeah, but there's never there's never one. i have not I've yet to go to any job since I've been out of the military that had a process that I didn't have to write. Correct. Bingo. We're just faking it.
00:48:55
Speaker
That's true. But we're good at that because we've done it over and over and over. out Out of several jobs I've had out of the military, only one was like I was truly like handpicked, like recruited, right? Like somebody reached out to me and said, hey, we want to offer you this. It was an offer I couldn't refuse. Everything else has been Hey, I've been trying to fill this role for like six weeks, you know, you want to come over, you know, and I'm like, what, you know, or, or they tell me about the role and I'm like, what about me? How much does it pay? Okay, here, come on over. Right. It's been so fluent and easy. I'm not, and I'm not bragging when I say that. I mean, just the power of networking, right? Even at one time when I was, um when I was laid off.
00:49:31
Speaker
um within units, you know what I mean? Hey, Rafael, I got a project. You wanna freelance, you wanna do this, you wanna do that. So I can honestly say, I've never had to like apply, apply, other than a formality. Like, you know, we need you to apply. We need you to go through the system kind of thing. And it's been due to the power networking. And I'm glad,
00:49:53
Speaker
ah ah who you who mentioned who just mentioned about um the Smoke Pit, George. yeah Yeah, George. You mean i know and you mentioned that the smoke break. It's true. I think when you structure it, you think like um it's going to be speed dating. I need to ask these three questions. I need to approach with caution and kind of very robotic. And if you just say, hey, bro, I was in the Air Force 2. What's going on? you know Let's talk about this. Or you know what what do you work? what What do you do? And just get have a real conversation. Things just flow organically. And you get somebody's contact information. You follow up just like you normally would as as a business. transit And it works out. It it really shows you know pays dividends.
00:50:32
Speaker
Just a second, that all almost all my adult friends have come from cyber. um I still have Marine homies, but um almost all of my people I refer to as friends. are They're just great people that you meet along the way and um better up to some pretty amazing stuff. so yeah I think um it's been interesting in my experiences interviewing along the years. I would say um San Diego is is an amazing town for veterans. um Lots of times, I either tied in the interview I was told later on and the nod went to the Marine.
00:51:01
Speaker
um or um they favored leadership over, say, some technical skill that I might not have had at the time. um Yeah, and I've had a lot of veterans for bosses, so um that wasn't the case. At um Carbon Black, you know, Carbon Black was a pure startup before we got over there. but Yeah, that's been um nice. and And so I think for me, I definitely try to, at least in San Diego as much as I can, find the people transitioning out and really help them find their first gig. Because the first gig is the hardest one to get. After that, if you follow some of the great advice that these veterans have given, um the rest will start to take care of itself, especially if you apply um the way you approached your job in the in the military to to your civilian job.
Securing First Civilian Job
00:51:44
Speaker
um You'll probably be just fine. You'll probably get a little promoted faster than your peers. um You'll find as well. But that first job is very hard. So I think it's incumbent on us to help those folks land that.
00:51:55
Speaker
Yeah, it was a numbers game for me on my first job. And I say numbers by I was moving to a new area, just graduated college after being in the military for 10 years. And I literally applied to hundreds of jobs until someone called me. but But as you said, you treated the job hunt as a job, right? That was like your full time gig was just like, I'm on this. Yes.
00:52:18
Speaker
and and Actually, if you guys look back in LinkedIn, George did a really, really cool multi-part series of articles um when he went through a job, we'll say a forced job transition like two years ago. and It's good content. like I'd highly recommend people look it up, but I kind of want to ah kind of want to end things off with like a real mill perspective kind of thing that I think a lot of listeners might empathize with. So when I was in, I knew a lot of lifers. You guys probably know some lifers and they hated their jobs. Fucking couldn't stand their jobs, but they'd never leave. They're going to die with their unit. They're going to be cobwebs in the fucking closet. But the reason why they never quit is because the standard of living that they achieve in uniform with their basic rank, whether they're an E4, E5, equivalent, that kind of thing.
Overcoming Fear of Transition
00:53:07
Speaker
um I think of it like golden handcuffs. It was just comfortable enough that they don't want to risk losing it because they don't know what's on the other side. Now, the old you know middle-class golden handcuffs the military traps us with, it's a real thing and it keeps a lot of people who I think it it cuts off years of your life when you're absolutely miserable at work and that's where you got to go every day.
00:53:31
Speaker
What advice would you give about overcoming the fear and taking that chance to go out on your own?
00:53:41
Speaker
I mean, I'll just give you what I tell everyone. This this has been amazing. i yeah At least in particular to my career, I've been shocked, amazed, grateful. um I've gotten to work with governments all over the globe, militaries all over the globe, um political leaders, stars. I've been on the news. And and so I would say to anybody, like that is going to hold you back at a certain point.
00:54:05
Speaker
So like set your elevation open the aperture up a little bit and um you know yeah it's all out there. I mean it's it's crazy I've got Australian military friends and you know friends from GCHQ in the UK it's been really amazing and so I really do try to recruit people who are passionate about this to get in because We're all getting a little long in the tooth. you know We need a next generation to come in and give us the tag team so that we can retire. But um yeah, is it a pain in the ass sometimes? Yes. Is it a lot of long hours? Yes. But I personally wouldn't trade um leaving the military on the journey I've had for anything.
00:54:41
Speaker
and I was gonna say, it's hard it's hard to to to comment and not and not um not echo what Rick said. It's true, this has been remarkable. like The opportunities have been afforded. I personally, I'm one of those guys, I don't have a degree, I have certifications. And to sit in ah in a room with stakeholders, and I'm like, do I ever have a seat at the table? These people know where I came from, what my background was like you know like like. I was on welfare as a kid, and this is affording me opportunities to try, you know to travel,
00:55:08
Speaker
on um on private jets, you know what I mean? To go to a meeting, to to to to sit at the table, to to for a CISO to ask me, Rafael, which way do you think we should go? And then run with the decision, and that turns into an 18-month vision, you know? um So yeah, super grateful there is a lot of good on this side, but the one thing I will tell people to get them over the hump, you are more awesome than you think.
00:55:32
Speaker
you know And what you consider basic is it is absolutely like outstanding remarkable behavior on the other side, right? Things that things that that were forced resiliency for you are now your natural resiliency and that is worth, it's waiting gold in the civilian sector. So you will find yourself dominating. I'm not saying it has to be a competition. all What I'm saying is that you think, oh, I was just an E5 and um I was just a man kind of thing. You listen, your skills to have managed people in the military are equivalent to like a ah real world CEO on the business side and um don't downplay your skill set. you You bring a lot to the table that is extremely valuable, stuff you can't teach without having had that that that military experience.
00:56:18
Speaker
yeah you know I haven't haven't flown on a private jet. I haven't worked with any stars. yet yet but Yeah, growth mindset. OK, yeah, absolutely. ah But I'll say anything in life that's worth doing isn't going to be done easily. And transitioning out of the service is no different. you know I was not that far ago you know scared of what it was going to be for me. I was one of those lifers, 22 years in the Navy.
00:56:46
Speaker
looking to retire because it had just come to me mentally that it was time to be done. Um, for me, you know, my, my middle son was at the age where I had been away for more of his birthdays than not. Um, and it was, and it was the point where I was done and I was in vet sec talking to people freaking out and they still have a message that one of them sent me and it was basically stop worrying about it because you have the skills, whether you think you do or not, you're going to show up to work.
00:57:15
Speaker
And everybody there's faking it till they make it just like you think you're going to be doing. And you're going to show up and say, what's the problem? OK, I got it. Let's do this, this, or this. And you're going to be decisive. And you're going to do a little bit more than everybody else of your peers are doing. And you're going to be fine. So quit fucking worrying about it, basically. right And yeah, it's true. It worked. So if you're thinking about it mentally and you think it's the time to go, just do it.
00:57:42
Speaker
You know, there's 7,500 people in vet sec today. That's 7,500 mostly veterans that have already made that transition. If all of them can do it, anybody else can too. Just make the decision. Yeah, there's 7,500 people to go to and say, hey, do you need a coworker? Right. Absolutely.
00:58:03
Speaker
that's sad yeah That's me. Prepare. That would be my like advice to everyone. Just prepare. Make a plan and you know have a have a backup plan to your plan and keep keep moving. that's I think everybody has said that. Be ready. we all are We're prepared for that because we've done it so many times. um But yeah,
Building Support Networks
00:58:22
Speaker
that'd be it. Prepare and reach out. and i'm I'm on Vetsec, not as much as I should be, Tom. I'm sorry.
00:58:28
Speaker
I need to get back in there more, but um um seek those groups um even i mean if you if you can't find a group locally. Make your own. That's my other suggestion. Create your own. um I won't lie, I started Women of Security because I wanted to make friends um in the industry that were like me. And I was having a hard time doing that in the area. And so I just made my own group. um I was part of veteran groups in the area, the but not cyber. and So I made a Women of Security so I can make some friends and find some more colleagues because
00:59:02
Speaker
Typically in the hiring process, I would have 100 applicants and three were women. And that is not a good thing. So I wanted to encourage more to show up and and apply and not be afraid. um and And to tell them that yes, you especially veterans, you have experience, even if it's not in cybersecurity, you have experience.
00:59:23
Speaker
Yeah. Well, that is a, that is a wonderful note to end on. So Rick, Larcy, Tom, Rafael, and George, thank you for your service and thank you for sharing your time with us. This has been amazing. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. got you Thanks everyone.
00:59:49
Speaker
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01:00:11
Speaker
We don't have army represented, so that's on them. Oh, wait, we got Canadian army. Sorry, dude. So we do actually have all all branches. That's good. that's good