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Episode 7: Arts and Advocacy with Jeremy Smith
126 Plays2 months ago
Arts advocacy always requires its champions, and Jeremy Smith has ben a constant presence in the Australian arts scene over the last 25 years. Jeremy is a Perth-based arts administrator and self-described fierce advocate and ally for difference. Jeremy joins Georgia for a wide-ranging conversation about the state of the arts, on his origins in lighting design, and on advocacy that is all about turning empathy into tangible action.
Jeremy is currently finishing his four-year term as senior producers at Performing Lines WA, building on his past experience in arts administration with organisations like PICA, Creative Australia, DADAA, the AWESOME Festival and ArtsWA / Department of Culture and the Arts. Jeremy has worked closely with artists, organisations and communities in all corners of the country promoting artistic bravery, self-determination and brokering opportunities. In addition to his extensive portfolio, Jeremy championed Regional and Remote Australia under the Australia Council’s Cultural Engagement Framework and helped to develop and deliver key arts and disability initiatives.
For links to many of the initiatives Jeremy and Georgia discuss, check out https://heregoesnothingpod.substack.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Jeremy Smith's Career Overview
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome back to Here Goes Nothing. My name is Toby Malone and I'm proud to be Georgia Malone's brother. The podcast took a little break for some unavoidable health issues and I'm going to take over for the introductions for the next few episodes.
00:00:17
Speaker
Luckily, Georgia is a planner so we have some great conversations in the bank. In this week's episode, Georgia sits down with man about town, fierce advocate and a prominent figure in the Australian arts scene, Jeremy Smith.
00:00:31
Speaker
Jeremy and Georgia have had parallel careers over the last 30 years, and they chat about how he got into the arts, starting out as a lighting designer, and wrapping up a four-year tenure as senior producer at Performing Lions WA.
00:00:43
Speaker
Jeremy's career has been varied, but he and Georgia share a knowledge of unsafe work practices of theatre in the late 90s and how much has changed over the years. Enjoy. So today's guest is Jeremy Smith, who has had a very varied and... long career in the arts in Australia over the past 30 years.
00:01:03
Speaker
Welcome, Jeremy. Hello, welcome. Thank you for having me. So to get things started, Jeremy, what was your first experience with
Inspirations and School Experiences
00:01:10
Speaker
the arts? Gosh, um I've always been and creative in multiple ways, not just in the arts, but in ways I do things. and um And I do remember early primary school,
00:01:24
Speaker
there was a series of picture books that were by an illustrator called Brian Wildsmith, um which I just loved and collected a lot of his books and that became an obsession with pastels and doing a lot of cross-hatching and really deep, rich colours.
00:01:45
Speaker
um in a lot of the sort of coloring you i was doing or drawing that I was doing and and that then always became a bit of a staple in my life even through as a designer I used a lot of a lighting designer used a lot of saturated colors and so um that was I guess the beginning of I had an obsession with color and um translucency and all that sort of thing and as many people know I collect vintage glass now so that's always been quite a sort of presence all the way through my life I guess um and then it just sort of followed through like I won
00:02:19
Speaker
a drama award at my year seven graduation. um And then that continued into high school um drama dance. I was the first boy, I think, in the history of Williston High School to enroll in dance. and I did that both in year 11 and year 12.
00:02:38
Speaker
um And then before that, what sort of got me into that was Rocker Stepford, which was quite pivotal. Rocker Stepford. At the entertainment centre. Exactly, the audience centre. And those were the days where they used to have two Rocker Stepfords. There was the Rocker Stepford and Rock and Roller Stepford. Oh.
00:02:51
Speaker
Yeah, there was two different ones, the national one and the state one. Oh. I did Rocker Stepford once. Yeah. think it was in 1998. five or six and I was the crew and I just remember pushing um pushing things yeah or just around the stage because they were pirates and they were like um scaffolding and then 10 ships yeah and that was I did the lighting for our entry in year 12. Yeah right And I won the best lighting award.
00:03:23
Speaker
There you go. Yeah. Was there was there anyone at school that encouraged getting into lighting? Was it just kind of something? I had a very supportive experience. drama teacher, theatre teacher um and dance teacher as well, um Mr Coles and Ms Boxhall.
00:03:39
Speaker
um And they had sort of come up with a bit of a cunning plan, I think, when it became evident that um because there weren't many guys that were auditioning to be part of the Rock Stedford,
00:03:50
Speaker
um and because of my stature probably wasn't going to be the most visible on a big stage of hundreds of students dancing around the place. They both sort of did a strong pincer move on me and um put forward to me, I think it was year 11, the first time I did lighting and then I continued that through the year 12.
00:04:08
Speaker
Yeah, I had a year 12 experience I asked about your school production. i just decided I wanted to be a stage manager and asked my teacher repeatedly to the point of harassment.
00:04:19
Speaker
It turned out that she'd been asking every every one of my teachers and my mum whether i was mature enough to manage it and just it dirt to understand I just would not let it go. Yeah. Yeah. So that was it. Yeah. And so then I continued that through and did a few school productions as a design designer.
00:04:34
Speaker
But during the day, like during the classes, was doing performance. And they have a good arts program there at Wilton? It was very early at that stage. I think now they do very much so. But I think, um you know, it was a crappy old performing arts centre at that stage, which I think has now been rebuilt.
00:04:47
Speaker
This is like the early to mid-90s. um ah Not great tech. Yeah. In hindsight, but we may do. I think they had a great visual art program, which I was also studying all the way through school as well.
00:05:03
Speaker
um And so that was really great for things like sets and costumes and and that sort of thing. So, yeah. Yeah, amazing. And then so you went to WAPA straight out
Journey at WAPA and Early Career Challenges
00:05:10
Speaker
of high school. I did. That's so rare. I know. It was extraordinary. I sort of found about the...
00:05:15
Speaker
lighting design course at WAPA in year 12 after I'd won the lighting award and then just started sort of like drifting towards that and um funnily enough I remember I can't remember if it was year 11 or 12 that I first did some work experience and I went to His Majesty's Theatre and met JC. But no, JC is my husband.
00:05:39
Speaker
um I remember the first ah work experience I did was observing the plot and bumping for WA Ballet's Midsummer Night's Dream um and then got to really know a lot of the crew at the match at that stage, which is really, really lovely, I must admit. and They're still mostly around.
00:05:57
Speaker
They are. Studsy, JC, a whole raft of them, Portie, and then went back later that year and did a musical. Mm-hmm. Me and My Girl, it was, which had Rachel Beck. Yes, JC has stories about Rachel Beck, me my girl.
00:06:13
Speaker
I won't share. exactly um And then I think after that found out I'd been accepted into WAPA. Yeah, great. Because that all through a sort of audition process, but yeah not really. yeah Yeah, I was it was tried to, you know, I thought about going to WAPA when Australia, I didn't really know it existed when I left school. and But I was always taught, especially the arts management, then you, like the likelihood of getting accepted out of high school was so low.
00:06:37
Speaker
I was told repeatedly that it would be not sort of something and wouldn't happen. yeah And I remember actually getting the call and being admitted. And then the first thing I did was went back to school um and pulled my drama teacher, Mr. Coles, out of the staff room. think it was lunchtime or morning recess or something and told him and he just started crying, which was so beautiful. And I think he then went back into the,
00:07:01
Speaker
staff room and shushed everyone and made an an announcement and, yeah, it was really, really lovely. It's amazing. It's a something so amazing about supportive teachers yeah oh yeah and what they can do and support you. Yeah, exactly. yeah yeah And so WAPA in the 90s, they were doing a lighting course. um what So, yeah, how was it?
00:07:22
Speaker
It was interesting, I think, because I really didn't sort of perceive my physicality as an obstruction. Like even through the audition process, I was asked, can you climb a ladder? And I had to demonstrate that I could climb a ladder. And, you know, obviously a lot of lighting is height based work, which um means climbing ladders and rigging lights and running cables and all that sort of thing. And so it would really depend on the venue that I was working in at WAPA. I was never good, like I mean, through high school, I was horrific at science maths.
00:07:54
Speaker
And so there were mandatory units around electrics and physics, which was just awful. I was really good at tech drawing. And so really from that point on and until the end of the of my lighting design career, were hand drew and really enjoyed. I never used CAD or any of those sort of electronic programs. So had the old stencils and and hand drew a lot of work. um Did a lot of risky, silly things, I think. You know, I felt i can't remember the number of times I fell off ladders. Yeah. um And did all sorts of things where I think I was just always wanting to prove that I could do it. Yeah. No matter the risk or safety and so on and so forth. So yeah
00:08:38
Speaker
um was a very bad head electrician. There was legend at one time when I think I was working with, bless him, Handy Matt, as he he was the designer and i was his head electrician in what is now the Enright Studio and it was a changeover between two Shakespeare's that they were running and rep and...
00:09:01
Speaker
We had to sort of re-rig, I think, probably half a dozen lights and refocus them and I took four hours for the crew to do that and that became what the
Freelance Work and Theatre Scene in Perth
00:09:10
Speaker
folklore. Yeah. Never get Jeremy to do heavy net tricks again.
00:09:14
Speaker
and long were you a lighting designer for after when your lighting career came? I think. um The last proper gig I did, which was ah massive um production of Deflatomass that was directed by dear old John Nielsen, who I had a very special relationship with. He always kept using me and he kept calling me giggles.
00:09:36
Speaker
i had a very... i I had a very terrible relationship with John Wilson. Yes, there's lots of people. You'd see the chalk or cheese, I think, in terms of the type of relationship. I was young, feisty woman, not his favourite type. Exactly.
00:09:47
Speaker
And so I did deflate a mouse at his match. um And I'm trying to remember at what time that would have been. It would have been the early to mid-2000s, I think. So I did it for about 10 years in proper. I never really did it full-time solely because the industry at that stage was quite closed.
00:10:04
Speaker
Hmm. and difficult for a breakthrough designer to get many gigs. um Another person that I owe a lot to is Andrew Ross. um He saw one of my shows ah ah in second year that I did at Beaker, which was the beginning of my sort of Or but with Pika, strangely enough. um They did a work called The Shakespeare Project that was directed by an international director and he then contacted Mark Howard, Andrew contacted Mark Howard and said, I want Jeremy to write a show for us once he's out.
00:10:38
Speaker
And so I did two shows in my first year out with Black Swan. Yeah, great. Which was incredible over at the old Subieco Art Centre. What shows were they? um The first one was Diary of a Madman, George Shetsov, which was directed by Lucien Savron, an outside director from Sydney at that stage. um And that was when I first met Ian Grandage, actually. He was the composer.
00:10:58
Speaker
um And then there was a show that Andrew directed, which was a version of After Dinner. Yeah, right. yeah I met Ian Grandage. Well, I didn't meet him, but he did the comfort the the musical direction for As You Like It musical...
00:11:11
Speaker
production at MLC in 1996. so My brother was in it. That was 1998. So it was around 1997 you graduated. yeah so yeah following so after wapper you know the was around so ninety ninety seven graduated That was my last year, yes. So, you know, you and I are kind of in our independent theatre career kind of parallel time. What was the kind of shows did you do or kind of where were you? Yeah, look, I was always sort of worried about freelance and so I sort of always sought gigs that would give me, I guess, a baseline wage for me to then go off and do
00:11:53
Speaker
independent projects on top of that, which was where I sort of managed to continue a lot of my lighting work. But I do remember doing a lot of sort of indie theatre at the Blue rain downstairs at the Madge.
00:12:05
Speaker
um That when it was Greenwich? Yes, yeah but there was a performance space off the At the back, yes. That's where that performance space is where Revelation Film Festival started. I was at film school at the time and Richard Squider was there and friends and that's kind of where they keep the screenings off in that space.
00:12:24
Speaker
Before it all got filled full of little shit. Oh, yes. And then. The olden days. The olden days. And then did a couple of gigs at Rackabite when it was very early on, which was hilarious trying to do anything lighting and that one, that sort of um environment with um i think i did my first thing at raccobine actually when i was still at wapa yeah right with bill mccaskey that had that program which i think is now morphed into the bpa um and that was hilarious quite hilarious um and then also did a gig at um an album launch at big hall
00:12:58
Speaker
way before Tech Chair had in and anything and I fell off an extension ladder and almost broke my back. Oh, my God. Because I was just badly trying to rigl hearts and do things. Do you have any episodes electrocution? Yes, I do. I have to be careful what to say here because I don't get people into trouble. But there was a, I did Pocket Opera, which was a company that was around, know,
00:13:25
Speaker
It would have been ah around my third year at Waparool and the following year, first year that I was out, did ah incredible opera at the Old Bowens Warehouse, which was an empty shelter building back then.
00:13:39
Speaker
And so everything was brought in, generators and whatnot, um but backstage... a person who shall remain nameless who's still in our industry, um knocked over a whole collection of work lights on opening night.
00:13:54
Speaker
um This is pro-show, so after we'd all sort of celebrated and had a few drinks and um gave me, it was like the days when blues were in Marlowe tins. Yeah. um And gave me one saying, oh, this isn't working, and I put my hand straight onto a filament.
00:14:08
Speaker
Oh, my Oops. Oops indeed. And there's been other cases as well. Yeah. that've been like' Still here. Still going. i mean, I think those early days, so I did my first show at the Blue Room in 1999, I believe, um after doing yeah my first show at the Rackabots in late 98 for the re Art Rage Festival UDS show, which was fabulous and disastrous in so many different ways.
00:14:35
Speaker
As they always are. As they always are. and And it was the blue room, I got put into this show as stage manager and I think it was like, oh, you can do lighting too, hey. And then they just all left, like left me to do plot and to rig the lights and to work out how to patch the lights.
00:14:53
Speaker
No, patch the 23. And that patch at the blue room was. Pretty gnarly. Indecipherable. Yeah. If you hadn't been taught, which never was. think I'd done like a tiny lighting course with John Doyle at Oh, yes. At the Dolphin Theatre. And they had like the lighting desk with the big levers.
00:15:14
Speaker
Oh, yes. I think that was the extent of my lighting experience. used to love ah during WAPA because there was the terrible old RS City building at the back of the car park and that was very lo-fi. um and that was where you'd sort of cut your teeth as a designer. and It was almost such that I could even stand on a chair and wriggle it. Yeah. was how low the ceiling was.
00:15:32
Speaker
um But everything was preset, so Maddy sort of as the operator for a show, have a 24 or 36 channel rack that you'd then have to sort of redo all your presets and crossfade manually in between each phase.
00:15:45
Speaker
I used to love the sort of adrenaline of operating live without sort of now pushing the button. I did so many instances of adrenaline at that room theatre at the time. I think I did a show.
00:15:57
Speaker
It's when... People, you know, it was that time with Nokia phones where you could personalise your phone ring. So mine was, hey there, Georgie girl. And if for anyone knows the blue room, the 50-seater and this there the lighting desk is it literally the back of the seating and in the in the audience and this really serious thing, Andy King delivering a very serious monologue.
00:16:17
Speaker
My phone just kept ringing, hey there, Georgie girl. And it was someone asking me answers on a quiz, on a pub quiz. But then Andy forgot to do a scene change and I had to, like he just walked off. probably distracted him. that's Well, at the end of the show he looked at me and went even.
00:16:38
Speaker
Is there a call? I had the reverse where suddenly I was asked to stage manage as I was sort of like busily doing like operating and lighting work. And then that, funnily enough, got me into being resident stage manager and lighting designer at Bucking Gecko for almost two years, which was, you know, a lot of fun. I watched that company as well, yeah.
00:17:00
Speaker
Yeah. Stage meeting, I kind of kind of remember the last time I stage managed, but it didn't last forever. Hugely long. I was kind of doing, i was at uni doing film and the theatre was the stuff on the side, but, you know, you spend all your time doing these shows, hence the half degree I ended up with in university and the non-graduation.
00:17:18
Speaker
um So we were talking before as well, I mentioned there was there's some great theatres that were around then that kind of really did, like the opportunities I think for independent Theatre, there just seemed to be so many more opportunities. Yes. Especially like doing Art Rage Festival. Yeah. They used spaces that don't that were like, so I did a show at Old Gold's Gym, which was yeah in the Grape Skin Wine Bar, which is now some terrible sports bar.
00:17:44
Speaker
um All the Gasworks. Gasworks, yeah. Which is completely condemned now. I remember, I think, and they're building either on top of or next to a big lot of student accommodation. Yeah. yeah Yeah. That was amazing. Yeah, I remember using that a lot when I was working at Perth Festival in Sugar.
00:18:00
Speaker
1998, I think I did my first spin at the festival. um And, yeah, we used it quite extensively and it was quite a beautiful, yeah you know, very dangerous but very beautiful venue. Yeah, and then also Effie Crump.
00:18:14
Speaker
Effie's, yes. You know, it was upstairs at the Brisbane Hotel before the Brisbane Hotel got it refurbed. Yeah. People lived up there. Yeah. they lived in the hallway. So you'd be sort of plotting and rigging late at night and you'd see some of the residents come up from, you know, once the pub closed at midnight. Yeah.
00:18:34
Speaker
It was like the old days where there was still skimpies downstairs. yeah It was a real dive. They kind of like the sports bar side. man Yeah. It was, um, and yeah, so I sort of, um, again through John Mielsen and a lot of other directors, Marcel Schmitz, Leith Taylor,
00:18:51
Speaker
um and others ah did quite a few shows at Effie's because I think it was sort of such that they couldn't ever afford a fee for a lighting designer and it was still something that I wanted to sort of keep a finger in the pie of so I did a lot of um gigs there on stage which was really lovely actually because it's such a challenging and funny quirky venue um to sort of play with angles and you know again you're sort of like putting an A-frame ladder over rows of seats and just sort of yeah cracking on and doing it and um Jenny Poe that was really the first time I met her she was doing a lot of stage management up there and that sort of thing as well so
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm really proud actually of some of the things I did that venue as a lighting designer because it could just be like a flat wash. Because it was such yeah, was that kind of like a triangular central stage in the seating? Yeah, very shallow as well. Sort of in the rounds but not. No, and very shallow and the seat was slightly raked, which meant if you put anything too far out, you'd have a tall audience member completely flashing their head on a light if you put anything in certain locations. Yeah.
00:19:55
Speaker
um Yeah, it was a fun and quite lovely venue to work in for a period. Yeah. They did great shows too. Yes. Like think some them did great shows. There's some companies that were around then and like Hole in the Wall and things that just aren't around anymore. No, exactly. Third time, Deck Chair, Pony and Company.
00:20:11
Speaker
The Reminis. The Halcyon Das. Yes. Culture, that was also a fun venue upstairs in Fremantle. I did a couple of shows there at one point. Yeah. I worked for Culture for about two weeks.
00:20:22
Speaker
I don't know if I'm in admin. When they, yeah, anyway. um And the Rackabites. Yes. In its old, in the heyday, not the new version of the Rackabites. So I'm very pleased that they maintained the beautiful yeah Christian ceilings. Absolutely. And the external the structure of the room and they didn't yeah try and gut it because it was such a, you know, amazing place. And I saw some and was involved with some epically amazing works, saw some horrific works as well. So there was a time that the Bluey was managing it as well. Yeah, there was time that they just sort of completely open side that indie work was going on there and things, yeah. Yeah, I used to work by there when Bluey was managing it, kind of worked there as well. um
00:21:03
Speaker
But it was just kind of like felt like there was a lot of more opportunity around that time. i don't know if we were just kind of would deeply in it um and the kind of works we were doing, that like the risk-taking. Yeah, risk and people just getting on and doing stuff. I think there was a lot more of a,
00:21:19
Speaker
can do, crack on, do it and let's make a show. Yeah.
Shifts in Arts Funding and Support
00:21:24
Speaker
um And I think, you know, there's a lot more red tape and bureaucracy and insurance was a thing that sort of killed a lot, i think, in many ways.
00:21:34
Speaker
um And, you know, obviously I wasn't an arts manager an arts administrator at that time nor a producer and so I don't understand anything. what was just being you know what was given a blind eye versus what was sort of just allowed to slip through yeah um yeah so I think that there was a lot of stuff that certainly couldn't happen now yeah that was going on and and but it was still really magical stuff that was being made but also like really bad stuff oh yeah I feel like you know they felt like
00:22:04
Speaker
especially the Blue Room at that time, I've been involved in a number of shows that were just dire and yeah you kind of do them to support friends yeah or, you know, you kind of do one show and someone, I've got the next show, I want to come work on that kind of thing. And it just off. It was a word of mouth thing, yeah, exactly. and And, you know, you kind of got permission to fail, permission to take the risks. It was all on you to be able to do that and I think it felt like from mid-2000s or as it got bit late when the blue and brand became stronger. Yeah. um
00:22:36
Speaker
The need for quality and the need for good works that could have a life beyond and the – don't know, it just felt like... I mean, if that was government funding changing, you know, in terms of triennial funding and all those sorts of, you know, because there used to be tiers in Western Australia um of annual program grants, multi-year funding, triennial funding, and then there were the majors back in the day as well. So...
00:23:03
Speaker
And I think as companies escalated their way through those ranks of um structure, their approach became more structured. And the KPIs put on them and their outcomes based, their needing to achieve things um and constant growth and constant improvement rather than, yeah.
00:23:21
Speaker
I mean, quite interesting because I've been thinking about this lot lately. There was a lot of the arts organisations in WA are like 35 years he so Yeah, there's a boon of like 30 and 40-year-old companies. What is it that happened in the late 80s, early 90s to create these companies? And I know there was a lot of like, you know, companies kind of came out of other organisations, but, they you know, what was it in the sector, yeah in the environment?
00:23:44
Speaker
What did the government funding or the government support lead to that and the ability to kind of create something that has become so sustainable or sustained over this time?
00:23:55
Speaker
and in kind of, you know, those points in history that really kind of shape. yeah It's interesting, yeah, I think that there was a whole spate of companies and I know when I was at, well, what is now Creative Australia, but then the Australia Council, there was a lot of companies, particularly in the experimental arts portfolio, that celebrated 25, 30 years.
00:24:13
Speaker
twenty five thirty yeah year anniversary milestones in quite close close succession as well. um So, yeah, there was obviously a really big um thing in that sort of early to mid-90s, that sort of not just in WA but nationally.
00:24:30
Speaker
Thanks so much. I'm sure someone's done research. Yes, I think so. Well, I mean, that gorgeous, there's an incredible archive from real time, which I think, you know, that now sits with the trove.
00:24:41
Speaker
Yeah. And it was so sad. Dear old Keith passed away recently. Yes, I saw. Bless him. That was so great. Yeah. You know, real, especially at Pika and the criticism or the art criticism and the actual criticism.
00:24:54
Speaker
i would like yeah media and got reviewed things that normally wouldn't get a look at anywhere else and so i think but it was also a national dialogue so I think but there's an archive of that sitting somewhere at um I know I went to the launch of it when i was um with the Trove system at either UNSW or Uni of Sydney but yeah so you said like you're just finishing up at the moment um your four years at Performing Lions WA um which is an organization that's that produces independent theatre, so works with independent artists to produce their shows. um
00:25:27
Speaker
So you've been producing now and you were making shows back then, 25, 30 years ago. Yep. What's changed? We talk about a few things that have changed. Yeah. um For the better or worse, what do you kind of see Well, I think, you know, entities like Performing Lines, I mean, that celebrated. It's at a national level. um Wendy Blacklock established Performing Lines um on the East Coast, um I think, 42 years ago now, 41 years ago.
00:25:52
Speaker
WA has existed for about 17 or 18 years, I think, since the MAPS initiative was sort of first put out by the government. And that was the thing. I do think at that point in time there was a lot of, you know, um having worked both in state government and federal government agencies that deliver arts grants programs,
00:26:11
Speaker
There was, for better or worse, um a lot of initiative funding that would support start-up initiatives or, um you know, specific initiatives that needed intervention yeah within our sector to sort of, you know, be it producing services to independent artists.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah. be it sort of programs that are dedicated to disabled artists, culturally diverse artists, regional artists and whatnot. I do think at both levels of government at that time there were, you know, there was dedicated programs the state level for young people and the arts, you know, which no longer exists.
00:26:43
Speaker
And I think a lot of the projects that probably you and I were part of at that stage were funded by that panel. And you get grants for like five grants. Exactly, quick response and all that sort of thing, you know, and that's the other thing too, that there's not really quick response in the day. It's not quick response now in terms of you still need 12-week late times and all that sort of thing. Yeah.
00:27:02
Speaker
um So that whole responsiveness and rapidness is because I think, you know, things have changed. globally around insurance and around compliance and around reporting and... And also, like, I completely agree with valuing Arts Work as real work and paying people. I mean, we'd get, do shows at the Blue Room, you get your $1,000 from the Blue Room and that was your entire budget. Absolutely. no And no one, you get, ah you would do, it would be a copro no Yeah, I could say a private share at the end. Yeah, exactly. yeah Which then you end up spending at the bar anyway. Yes, that's right. They did some shows where I ended up having to pay them.
00:27:34
Speaker
Pay them back. Yes, we all did. Yeah. I know it's sort of, I think a lot of that controversially I'll say that I think a lot of advancements have been made for funding programs to protect and preserve organisations. Mm-hmm.
00:27:49
Speaker
um however support for independent artists or groups or collectives have not maintained the same trajectory anywhere near yeah because you look organizations can get sustained four-year funding eight-year funding um but these organizations in queensland recently got tim fairfax foundation nine-year funding exactly and so that similar program for independent artists or collectives or groups and that sort of thing I mean, great at a state level here in WA that there are the same caps for both organisations and individuals and groups.
00:28:21
Speaker
um That doesn't exist federally. And you find a lot of, um you know, the conversations that i was having during the time at Creative Australia, a lot of um indies were wanting to become organisations simply on the grounds of being able to access more funding. Yeah. But the flip side of that is the compliance and the reporting and yeah everything that you have to do, not just to the funding agency but to other regulatory bodies and whatnot as well. So I think, you know, everything's become a lot about chasing the dime and, um you know,
00:28:51
Speaker
the utopia of what is sustainability. And creating programs and ways of working to fit where the funding Yes, exactly. That's right. You're sort retrofitting what you do to win all that. Like we need to do regional touring because there's more if you do take it regionally or work out regionally, which is great, but like, you know,
00:29:08
Speaker
to to change the way you're... Everyone's burning out and doing it for the wrong reason. You know, yeah that's the thing. That's damaging, you know, the whole premise for those that are doing it properly or of the regions or of the communities and whatnot as well. I think, you know, I mean, I'm a beneficiary. i will I've gone, will continue to talk to one blue in the face about the impact of fellowships independent artists. I got one of the Young People in the Arts fellowships in 2000.
00:29:35
Speaker
I applied in 1999 and it was for a... project in 2000. And that was at the time when I was working with Awesome and the then director and CEO Gary Chard said to me that you know, um he wanted to sort of, I guess, sustain my career. yeah um And to do that thought, I needed to sort of go and work with another organisation,
00:29:54
Speaker
that would allow me to increase my and and admin and management and producing skills. And so luckily I got one of the professional development fellowships, which in that time was $10,000, so yeah quite significant in, you know, economics back then. And then been at that age. Exactly, yeah, that's right. And then um was able to go off to live in Canada for six months and work with the Vancouver Children's Festival. Oh, wow. um Work on community outreach programs, volunteer programs, and that was began my journey also. I went to CACD and doing a lot of sort of, um programs back here with regional and remote communities as well. and but that you know And it's great to see the creative WA vision now sort of including fellowships. We still need to see double in the detail about what that will be. but Have a new minister soon. so Exactly.
00:30:39
Speaker
That's right. and so But I think, you know, programs that support solely independent artists is something that I think really needs to lift and sort of grow because and also offer multi-year support for indies as well. Yeah. You know, that's where a change really happens. And I think...
00:30:53
Speaker
um you know, the flow-on effect, independent artists are so nimble as well and they sort of, through the nature of working, engage many others in the work that they do.
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah, and I think there was that move, but like the organisation independent organisations thinking that they needed, yeah, a structure like a major, like an artistic director, executive director, to actually be competitive on that level, especially now with the multi-year funding. Yeah.
00:31:22
Speaker
um But, you know, looking at like organisations like The Last Great Hunt and they did have that kind of structure and they've kind of revised how they work and kind of changed their model to suit how they work and what is good for them, yeah um which is commendable because so often, you know, you're trying to do these things to fit what people want. And so then the government's setting the agenda, the government is setting or, you know, how these kind of structures will look ah into the future. Yeah.
00:31:49
Speaker
So I think that whole thing, I mean, I, you know, when I was at, Creative Australia used to speak about the need for knowing when to get in the way and knowing when to get out of the way.
00:32:00
Speaker
And I think that's, you know, there's a very fine line in how government and other funding agencies can play in that sense too of sort of seeing an issue and that needs to be addressed and starting something that is very specific to that issue um and directing funding obviously towards it but then hopefully with the long-term aim of being able to create pathways into core funding programs or core grant programs or something along those lines and that's very prolific I think specifically in the independent sector.
00:32:31
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and some of my favourite times in the four years that i was at Creative Australia were times when, you know, you're deliberating on fellowships through the grant programs and same with the Creative Australia Awards as well, you know, that moment to really heighten and highlight and champion the work of independent artists because, you know, so much of what is locked up in budgets is for organisations, you know. And as I was talking about this the other day. It was kind of sad. I don't know, that all are independent artists, they have to win awards, get major grants, be successful in competitive process just to be able to pay their wage and survive. Like how many other people have to constantly like um prove themselves just to get another six months to pay themselves and just another be able to pay the rent for another six months.
00:33:16
Speaker
And it's kind of, Yeah, it'd be great to be able to shift that somehow. Absolutely. And I think that's the thing, it's constantly hustle because, you know, as an indie, you're wanting to work, you know, and that means applying for funding, putting yourself out there to get gigs with festivals or other commissioning partners or venues and tours and all that sort of thing.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah. It's a constant, you know, the labour of that sort of for those that choose to stay independent. Yeah. is incredible. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And as you know, in the amount of time spent doing applications and stuff, you're not doing the work. The work, exactly, yeah.
00:33:58
Speaker
So you've worked at like um state government. ArtsWA. ArtsWA in the old day. um Yeah, so I was there, initially went in as the project officer for community and regional arts development. Yeah.
00:34:10
Speaker
So it was almost like being the ride over the entire state. So it kept me busy, but um it was incredible because I mean, that was sort of, I've always ended up, I call the roles that I've had both locally at what is now DLGSC, but then also Creative Australia, what was then the Australian Council for the Arts, the Socks and Jocks Draw, because it's the art forms and practice areas or areas of the industry that aren't necessarily um singular.
00:34:39
Speaker
So, you know, community regional arts also encapsulated arts and disability, arts and education, ah regional arts development, education, I did sort of series of initiatives around young people in the arts as well and um and obviously culturally diverse artists as well. and so And then at Creative Australia I was the head of experimental art and community art, which again similarly but then, you know, was the champion internally of regional and remote Australia as well as disability arts as well. so And it's, yeah, all those kind of different albums that,
00:35:11
Speaker
survive on subsidy. They need to have it because it's not necessarily ever going to be commercially viable. No, and they don't have yeah frameworks like Empath, like VACS, like, you know, really high-level multi-year in funding and investment. Yeah.
00:35:29
Speaker
But in both those areas too, it was at Creative Australia, you know, the role of organisations is very different in experimental art, which is very driven by independent artists, um whereas in community arts and cultural development, sure, there are incredible independent artists in that sense in that sector.
00:35:47
Speaker
um But there's often an anchoring role of organisations in that space as well. Yeah. um And so it was a very interesting flip in terms of when you looked at applicants to grants programs, for instance,
00:36:01
Speaker
community arts and cultural development very dominated by organisations whereas the complete opposite in the emerging experimental arts very much by individuals and independent artists. Yeah, groups. And so you've and you've also worked within an organisation at PECAR.
00:36:16
Speaker
Yes. Yes, General Manager. You and I have shared the role. Exactly. And the parallel in the role. But then also worked at a from the other side as a corporate supporter. Yes. At Rio. I was at Rio Tinto, yes, for about five years.
00:36:30
Speaker
um Was managing a partnership that they had with DADA, which is a rights and disability organisation in Fremantle and was approached at that time, two thousand s from then. Oh, no, no, no, it would have been around 2009, 2010, I went in there.
00:36:45
Speaker
And, you know, there were people in that sort of community investment function at that stage that were incredible and really, wanting to transform the way that Rio um was was doing its community investment function at that stage and bring people in from the not-for-profit sector to to sort of be part of that sort of, you know, revitalisation of their strategy and approach and whatnot. So, yeah, there was a few of us that went in at that stage and enjoyed one hell of a ride. Yes.
00:37:14
Speaker
Don't necessarily do much. Are they coming back? I think there, yeah, there's a lot of people, yeah you know, there's a lot of people from my era that have gone back in to be part of the Phoenix because they they went obviously through a horrific patch um and centralised a lot of the community investment functions globally and sort of really gutted that local expertise that existed. And then they made mistakes.
00:37:36
Speaker
Exactly. They made plenty of mistakes and they did always make plenty of mistakes, mistakes but um no, it was a very different era at that stage. And, um, And it was really, you know, for me personally, an opportunity to work with arts organisations but also with other industries. um You know, i got to work with health, education, environmental organisations, lot of First Nations communities as well that were sort of working, doing programmes like via Graham Polly Farmer Foundation and other really incredible grassroots organisations as well.
00:38:08
Speaker
you've had a really kind of like 360 almost like view of the sector and and the... and from, yeah, state, federal, inside and outside organisations.
00:38:19
Speaker
What's the kind of key thing you've learnt, I guess? think there's no silver bullets. Yeah, if only. Yeah, there are no silver bullets. And I think, you know, there's um there's always issues and there's always problems and there's always deficits, both financially and materialistically.
00:38:37
Speaker
um And that's the thing I think that it always comes down to labour really of people, which is a sad fact. And, you know, all of us that work in the industry and work for the industry and, you know, allied roles and are there for the right reasons, you know, and and that exists, I think, for the people that work inside institutions and for institutions and um within the sector as well. I think that's the sad thing. And I think, you know, the machinery of government moves slowly um And I think, you know, hopefully we're starting to see the beginning of change with, you know, the launch of Creative WA yeah here in Western Australia. And, you know, I think that whole premise of arm's length funding is what both at both levels of government hopefully will remain retained and championed. Yeah. um And because that's the time when experts making decisions about government
00:39:40
Speaker
um sector. Yeah and I had when an earlier conversation with Vern and guest of regarding the but the influence of government, the role the government plays in the sector and his kind communist, like they're just not ro around long enough.
00:39:53
Speaker
Not. Like to have a true impact four-year terms. The term of through the federal, I think, isn't it? Yeah and so i mean we're in a position of, good position I guess in WA in the sense that it is It's pretty consistent um each election. so at least we know that it's going to be, there's going to some consistency and that the,
00:40:13
Speaker
Ten-year vision that was released at the end of last year is not going to be thrown out because no the government hasn't changed. so And also they were very smart in the way that they did that because they made it a departmental policy and not a government policy, yeah which is the big thing. Like federally, we've got a government policy, which yeah um is the big sort of um worrying thing, I think, because, you know. Things become ideological. Absolutely. And, you know, we saw that within the um the recent controversy with Creative Australia.
00:40:40
Speaker
And I went in into Creative Australia at the tail end of what happened after the George Brander series. So, you know, at the end of those horrific deep cuts that they made to what was then the Australia Council and created new funds out of Canberra, um you know, because they lost a huge amount of headcount. Yeah. and um And funding obviously as well. And so that's why they sort of had to create what was previously three roles into one, which is the one that I sort of yeah ran as well. Yeah.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's, you know, I think the revived policy has been incredible and really great. But again, it's a government policy. I think, um you know, I think everyone needs to think carefully about how they vote in the coming federal election.
00:41:21
Speaker
Yeah. Advocacy will be key. Yes, absolutely. And so the kind of things within the Revive that have been set up through Creative Australia, like Music Australia and Writing Australia and the other ones,
00:41:33
Speaker
um were they places and then there's yeah yeah will they stay? Like, are they kind of now in the organisational? I don't know. i mean, that's the thing is that obviously they changed, you know, to enable...
00:41:44
Speaker
revive to be delivered they changed the act yeah which is the act of the australia council and obviously australia council now exists as a governing board that sits across creative australia and several other entities that have been created through revive um So that's the thing. I mean, government changed an act and the government can always change an act. Yeah, right. Which I think is the worrying thing, you know, in terms of what the future holds.
00:42:08
Speaker
Yeah. um I don't know, you know, I've never been in the deep machinery of government in terms of Canberra and, you know, ministerial offices and that sort of thing. But, you know, that's what I think I always sort of have been reflecting on in recent weeks is that there was a government that came to power, they changed an act.
00:42:28
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And what's to say that another government can't change the gate? And I imagine, especially with so much ideological stuff going on at the moment and the controversy that happened, it'll be like doing it, changing it on stage You know, just cause. Exactly. Just to kind of make a statement rather than necessarily. Things within that act like arm's length assessment, peers and that sort of thing, which have been talked about.
00:42:51
Speaker
Yeah. In press and parliament and whatnot. I'm not going to get political. No, exactly. So, i mean, in your time in Creative Australia, so as West Australians, we often feel like the poor cousins.
00:43:03
Speaker
and the one that is from the rest of Australia, isolated over here, i mean, to make our own yeah um success. yeah um Is that true when it comes to, like, looking from it from a Creative Australia point or Australia Council point of view? It is yes and no is my answer to that question because WA...
00:43:22
Speaker
and Queensland, um both of the um troubled states in terms of Creative Australia. Yeah. um It's strange and even since I've come back, so it's twofold. We just don't get, sorry, we are not there anymore, Creative Australia does not get the volume of applications from Western Australia and Queensland as it does from New South Wales, Victoria, ACT and indeed South Australia. Yeah. So that's to begin with.
00:43:47
Speaker
But then the success rate of what god does go through WA Queensland did quite well. Yeah. um But there just isn't the volume of applications from those states to begin with. Yeah. Even even I, since coming back here to WA and, um you know, performing lines, um I think I've done only three applications to Queer of Australia in four years. Yeah, right.
00:44:12
Speaker
Really? Yeah. I mean, apart from other initiatives and those sorts of things, but for project funding and ah and all three of those were accessible. So that's hard.
00:44:24
Speaker
Well, that's a bit and it's a thing too. I mean, like and and I speak to people and say, well, I do Creative Australia because, you know, I think people sort of wait until they've got a presentation outcome or something along those lines. But the stuff that goes through are for developments, are for travel, are for, you know, um and I'm talking core grants program. I'm not talking all the initiatives and those sorts of things as well. But, um yeah, so I think that that it's a twofold thing. I mean, sure, absolutely more money needs coming to the non-New South Wales and Victoria states. However, there also needs to be a considered presence on the ground in those two locations of staff from the agencies, but then also, you know, get in there and start. And peers in the panel, and peers that know the work. Yeah, and not be blocked out of decision-making because we're small sectors and we know everyone and we're conflicted. But, yeah, think that's always the thing is that
00:45:18
Speaker
don't the I just think there's like a psychological barrier where people think, oh, no, I could never apply critical Australia funding. I think that's because that that kind of idea has been perpetuated since I can remember. So over 20 years, it's sort of like, oh, you know, they don't like us over there, so we're not bothering.
00:45:33
Speaker
um I think that's what was when working at PICA that's the Visual Arts and Craft Strategy Program. It was sort of there was an organisation from every state and it was based on, don't know, GST and dealing with the part local department. It was complicated, yeah but at least there was provisions made for it. So there was a VACS-funded organisation in every state, and this time around those funding for those artist-run initiatives and initiatives as well to see what that might do to elevate those organizations which is great yeah um yeah so pika always played such a big role artists listening to it if you think that you're not worthy or eligible or just get in there and have a crack yeah you know and that's the thing too it's and always ask for feedback yeah even if you're successful it's always so scary ask always ask for feedback that's something you know having worked inside the beast there is always a note
00:46:24
Speaker
or to sort of like, you know, and then sure it's heartbreaking when, oh, you know, you were just in that Unbound and Excellence band, but um that's more fire in the belly to go through it again next time. Yeah, yeah. So you've also been a big advocate for access and inclusion in the
Access, Inclusion, and Future of Independent Theatre
00:46:38
Speaker
arts. And so do you reckon there's been much progress made in this area?
00:46:43
Speaker
home um Deep sighs of frustration. Probably. um Look, I think yes and no in pockets, I think, because still I think across the industry at large there's a lot of fear about...
00:47:02
Speaker
those issues of access and inclusion and more broadly diversity, equity, justice and and whatnot um because I think, you know, there are so many intersectional identities within disability, neurodiversity,
00:47:19
Speaker
um and and other forms of lived experience that i think yeah there's a sort of eternal and deep fear of fucking up but fucking up is always part of learning <unk> sorry if i'm not allowed to swear um but yeah i think that's the thing i don't know everything you know and i'm a disabled person and um do you feel like you always get put like You're on everyone's course. You're on everyone's course. You're on everyone's course. You're on everyone's course.
00:47:48
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the thing too. I mean, like in in assessment meetings and in board meetings and you'll just hear deafening silence when something comes up around access and, you know, they'll just wait for me to be the first to say something or, you know, and I have a personal rule and and did so when i was at Creative Australia that I would never put one First Notions peer alone in an assessment room because that would then create so much labour for them.
00:48:13
Speaker
yeah So at least I would have another colleague in there to share that load. um Likewise, areas about cultural diversity, access to inclusion and and whatnot as well. It's almost like having make diversity inclusion and equity and inclusion programs are really important to be able to make everyone feel bad. Exactly. That's right. Well, that's the thing too. I think that's, you know, and then, like I said before, I mean, so much of equity is now about intersectionality as well because no one person is identity as singular in terms of their lived experience. And so, you know, I mean, people who follow me would have seen my recent sort of campaign, which was kicked off
00:48:51
Speaker
ah the beautiful Carolyn Chard at WA Opera about having footstools in venues yeah for me to see works and that sort of thing. And that's been really extraordinary for me. Like, I mean, yeah um to sort of have someone else kickstart that, but then, you know, me kick it along a bit as well has been really, really amazing. And that sort of demonstrates that things can be done that are really quite simple and easy to achieve. yeah um You know, at the end of the day,
00:49:17
Speaker
It's making that first step and then sort of being, I guess, prepared to have a dialogue because you won't know all the answers, you won't do all the right things and you won't be sort of doing um stuff that um instantly leads to change.
00:49:32
Speaker
It's a long game. Yeah, and I think, um you know, there's a lot of visible dis disabilities that people like, you know, we've got wheelchair ramps and we have wheelchair accessible seats and all that stuff and then there's all the invisible disabilities. Yeah, exactly. um That people just kind of don't even ignore. Well, I mean, my story, you know, I didn't identify as disabled until 2016.
00:49:50
Speaker
um And so it's been a big sort of rapid whiplash for me as well, sort like coming to terms with that and, you know, what that means for me physically in terms of then, you know, and then asking access. You know, now I actually say, do you have any access needs? And I put something in that box. Yes. um So, yeah, it's, you know, very much a, you know, a lot of I think the thing too about that space a lot, which I always sort of talk about, is dignity.
00:50:19
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Because there's a lot of that for people, yeah you know, that identify it whatever way um and how that can be protected, preserved and, you know, respected. So you don't feel, yeah, like a burden or just trying to or made fuss of, you know, just because people make assumptions yeah or yeah don't include you in certain things because they make assumptions.
00:50:41
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So you did a um presentation at The Unit Network. work Australia. Oh, yes, I did. That was... 22? During our Koliang hub. Yes. Yes, it was 2022. Yes, that's right. I was asked to... The topic was, um I think they gave three people the theme of how to be a good ancestor.
00:51:00
Speaker
o um And there was a gathering. Nick Baer was over here. um and yeah, there were three speakers and I was one of them. Yeah.
00:51:11
Speaker
And so you put a provocation in that and quite... quite candidly more um for the audience. do you Was there a much response to...? Yeah, it sort of then I got lots of requests to publish it. Right. Which was never the intent.
00:51:29
Speaker
um And so we did on the Performing Arts website and it's still there now. um And, yeah, there was quite a strong response, I remember, back to the time and um both in the rooms.
00:51:42
Speaker
and then But then it's sort of like I think sat with people and then over the weeks people had sort of heard second, third hand about it and had asked me about it more. and um Yeah, so I think that was sort of probably one of the biggest statements I've made personally in the public arena about, you know, access and whatnot.
00:52:02
Speaker
Do you think that people um then responded in an actual authentic way or this like oh yes we must have a disability action plan that we can oh no there was a lot of that yeah yeah and I mean that was that as you said 2022 and then so been 24 2024 sorry that me we've twenty twenty four sorry eight that me talking about, you know, that was in an ACT venue that I made that speech and then two years later talking about footstools and support for me going to see shows that I've been seeing in that venue for, goodness knows, how many years prior to that.
00:52:36
Speaker
um So, yeah, no, I think, and that's the thing too, I think you sort of, how you turn empathy into tangible actions. Yes. um Yeah. Yeah, and it's that kind of like. Small things can make such huge differences. Yeah, feeling sad, oh, like, you know, we're good, you know, and just making you feel like you're even more spotlighted. Yeah. And it's sort of like, no, just do the thing. Exactly. Make it easier. Yeah. And embed it in what you do. Yeah, yeah. in every way.
00:53:04
Speaker
But then also I think too there's a propensity to show off. Oh, my God, we've done this. Let's put it in our newsletter. Nice. So I think that also, you know, others, people as well, when that sort of tendency happens, um because it's a special initiative for that community or for that part of our audience. Like the audio description. Exactly, that's right. yeah i saying thing Which is great that they have, yeah but it's sort of like then you're limited to be able to.
00:53:29
Speaker
Absolutely. You have to go to the matinee on Wednesday. Yeah. so Well, that's the thing too. I mean, you can't go to every performance because it's sort of, you know, you're being told what show you can go to. um And sure, that's the thing. I mean, as I said in that speech, it comes down to priority in terms of how much money do you spend on opening night catering and all that sort of thing versus you could put sort of Auslan in audio description and tactile performance. activities in to, you know, um several other performances.
00:53:55
Speaker
Just make it available. Exactly. That's right. no request didn that happens That's right. Because often they do do that and they tick their box and then they don't make it, they don't talk to the right communities, they don't kind of get out there. And then those people don't attend and you've kind of gone, well, what's the point of doing that? They're not going to do that anymore because because so no one does it or makes it up. That's right. So it's just. yeah So, yeah, so generally looking into the into the future. Yeah.
00:54:20
Speaker
Thinking about independent theatre access and inclusion, what do you see, what good things are coming, do you think, or bad? Or bad? Or bad.
00:54:33
Speaker
Look, I think good things, I mean, credit credit's due, credit WA, you've got a plan. And... That's a 10-year plan and I think, you know, in the first three years it seems a lot of focus is on infrastructure and funding from agencies like, you know, Lottere West and other parts of government and whatnot, but there are the fellowships which, like I said before, devil will be in the detail. I do think at state level I would like to see the reinstatement of dedicated programs.
00:55:01
Speaker
you for First Nations, for you know young people in the arts, for arts and disability. I mean, there was at one stage, um which, and that sort of, I can't see where that really sits at the moment at a state level. Do there many opportunities, that people artists living with disabilities, um many opportunities to creating work?
00:55:21
Speaker
Like, or is Dada, kind of driving that or independently? raft of like I think, you know, there's a lot of new collectives that have sort of sprung up like My Studio, which is an initiative of My Place, as you say, Dada, and, um you know, they've got their hub in Fremantle.
00:55:37
Speaker
um And I think a lot of people are independently doing work like Crystal Nguyen, Patrick Gunnar-Sekera, And so I think really making waves and a lot more of organisations that do services for independent artists are now asking to be part of what those service delivery models are. I mean, obviously, performing lines, we also have a remit to do industry development programs for independent artists. And so we always are constantly thinking about ways to you know, going back to what I said before is but what I used to call structural adjustment of doing something, which was our artist lab, which for two years was for emerging culturally diverse and First Nation artists. But then in the third iteration, we did a lab for disabled and neurodivergent artists.
00:56:24
Speaker
And so those sorts of initiatives and, you know... umm um Do you think that had a fundamental... Did that shift the... of The performing lines, definitely, and I think, you know, there's a lot of artists that went through those programs that are now demanding, as they should, yeah you know, to be included and to be part of broader industry programs. You know, it's helped them...
00:56:49
Speaker
know what they should be asking for yeah um and you know to seek opportunities to be part of giving them the agency yeah exactly so i think those sorts of programs and initiatives i think are really key you know and it's great to see non-identifying organizations take the lead on those sorts of opportunities as well for um to create i think the big thing for independent artists is always pathways yeah um You know, there's this, as as talked about recently, what happens at mid-career stage and then what do you sort of do to punch through and get opportunities and yeah whatnot as well.
00:57:25
Speaker
The big dearth in, you know, Western Australia and indeed Perth at the moment is, you know, obviously there's the whole thing about venue access and affordability and, but then also the opportunity to present work as an independent artist is bloody expensive and bloody complex. Yeah, I mean, yeah, when you look at like when we were doing work, there was the Blue Room, the Rackabites,
00:57:46
Speaker
random spaces, Pika, Pika's performance space was such an integral, played such an integral role in my career as a producer. Like i produced my first show there in 2003. And I know that the needs at the moment for Pika not to have that space, um you know, structural and, yeah um but it It kind of, it it's be cold now and it's important that comes back because then the only other options are these government-owned venues that have so many regulations around them that limits their capacity to do yeah things on like for...
00:58:20
Speaker
for cheap yeah and just offering space absolutely and mini thing so that sort of thing and i think because there's now so much risk associated with presenting work you know and then there was a period where there was the way what d grant um wa theater development initiative um delivered by pica oh but there was the grant program through dlgsc which it was a dlgsc program that peak and that was involved with Blue Room or was there? Oh, there was like a dedicated more recently that, yes, it's had many iterations. Oh, yeah. But in the sort of early part of my time at Performing Lions, there was a grant program. Oh, okay. That you could apply for, I think, the quarantine funds from previous programs. recipients of small to medium.
00:59:04
Speaker
That no longer exists. Exactly. And it was given away you could apply for, well, initially it was $100,000 but then $150,000. And that's still not enough to make work. You'd have to supplement that with the box office and, you know, all that sort of thing. significant. But significant and that doesn't exist. And so that's a big loss. I know.
00:59:21
Speaker
And I think having that that option through DOJC of like 80K for your annual program is It's like what? Yeah, exactly. So it's, you know, that whole opportunity, you know, i think constantly as an independent artist you're being cut, cut, cut to fit what's available in terms venue or in terms of funding, in terms of commissioning opportunities and all that sort of thing. Yeah. It's opportunity for ah non-government organisations philanthropy Absolutely.
00:59:54
Speaker
um to come To kind of help support the sector in that way, be able to kind of elevate And also other places like with Liberty Theatre and Randall Humanities owning all those with those venues, yeah um opening them up to opportunity that wouldn't have used, hasn't existed ages. activate, that's the thing. I mean, yeah.
01:00:11
Speaker
I mean, I remember when I was the production manager of the Awesome Festival, hunting around endlessly at all these, you know, I mean, God, it's even more so the case now, but back then empty shops that we wanted to present works in and it was just a nightmare because, you know, that and we were offering to pay but they'd rather not Go through that.
01:00:31
Speaker
Well, the risk, but then also the paperwork of giving it to someone for two weeks or something along those lines. So I think there's a lot to be said about what, it you know, what do you call them? Incentives for landlords and that sort of thing to activate spaces and allow artisan, you know, producers to do things in spaces that are...
01:00:50
Speaker
Currently empty. And if only people knew those amazing theatres that were hidden in the back of Hay Street Mall. Exactly. That's right. They've been boarded up for so long. Yeah, that's right. I haven't to pick dealie. Anyway, we can have another conversation. Yes, that's right.
01:01:04
Speaker
about that um well thank you very much jeremy it's always good to chat likewise thank you for having me it's been lovely yes many things a lot less gossip in this one no that's right because those those things are not for public consumption that's right um but yeah thanks again thank you georgia
01:01:28
Speaker
Thank you to Jeremy Smith for a fascinating conversation with my remarkable sister, Georgia. For more information on Jeremy's advocacy work, including a lot of the funds he talked about, check out the Here Goes Nothing substack at heregoesnothingpod.substack.com.
01:01:44
Speaker
Join Georgia next week for another invigorating conversation, this time with award-winning American playwright, educator, and dramaturg, TJ Young. Until then.
01:01:56
Speaker
This podcast was made on Whadjuk Noongar Buddha, a place I'm very privileged to call my home, and I acknowledge and honour all Noongar people that have been making art in this land for tens of thousands of years and will continue to do so for generations to come.
01:02:10
Speaker
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Original music by Lyndon Bloom. This is a GM Productions Project.