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Episode 9: The Role of the Critic with Nina Levy
85 Plays21 days ago
The role of the critic is a thankless one, and one whose influence is sadly waning as mainstream media abandons traditional criticism and resorts to reducing the arts to a mark out of five stars.
In this week's episode of Georgia Malone's Here Goes Nothing, Georgia welcomes Nina Levy: dancer, visionary, and writer: co-founder of the Seesaw arts magazine, and fierce defender of the importance of the critic's voice. This lively discussion includes insight into the way the critical voice has changed in recent years, reducing a critique to a poster quote, the logistics of writing about something you hated, and the truism that quality journalism must be paid for.
Nina Levy is a West Australian freelance arts writer and editor, and communications co-ordinator at Community Arts Network. At a national level Nina made her name as writer and critic for Dance Australia magazine, 2007-2020, co-editing the print publication 2016-2019.
Nina is best known in her home state for her work as dance critic for The West Australian newspaper, 2009-2018, and as co-founder of Seesaw Magazine, an online publication covering the arts. Seesaw Magazine was launched by Nina and co-editor Varnya Bromilow in 2017, in response to the decline in coverage of the arts by mainstream media. Nina was the magazine’s managing editor until September 2023 when publication was paused due to lack of funding.
For links to many of the areas that Georgia and Nina discuss, visit https://heregoesnothingpod.substack.com/
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Transcript
The Role of Critics in Theater
00:00:04
Speaker
What is the role of the critic in the theatrical process? What impact does criticism have on ticket sales or future projects or artist fulfillment? What happens when you de-platform professional critics to put the power in the hands of volunteers and punters?
Introduction to Georgia Malone's Podcast with Nina Levy
00:00:20
Speaker
I'm Toby Malone, honoured to be introducing this latest episode of my sister Georgia Malone's Here Goes Nothing, where Georgia sits down with Nina Levy, critic, journalist, dancer, to chat about the state of arts criticism in Australia.
00:00:35
Speaker
This is a wonderful conversation about where we've been and where we're going with a central figure in the West Australian arts scene.
Nina Levy's Background and Arts Journey
00:00:43
Speaker
Much like Georgia, Nina sets her mind to things and gets results, as we've seen with her work as founding editor of Seesaw magazine and her remarkable decision to become a dancer well into adulthood.
00:00:54
Speaker
You'll enjoy this one.
00:01:00
Speaker
So today we're here with Nina Lewick. Hi. Hi, how are you going? yeah And we're here to talk a bit about arts criticism, especially in performing arts. But before we get there, tell me, Nina, what is your earliest memory of the arts?
00:01:13
Speaker
Okay, so my mum took me to see Annie the Musical, I think when I was six, maybe. And we were living in Birmingham in the UK. So that was at a really beautiful venue called the Hippodrome.
00:01:29
Speaker
um which I have to admit I don't actually remember a lot about. Most what I know about it is what I've learnt subsequently. ah But it's a very well-known theatre venue. And, um yeah, it was really, I was really, really excited because all the kids were going to see this show and talking about it. so i like, I knew about it and i was I was kind of, um yeah, really charged to see it.
00:01:58
Speaker
ah Also my younger sister who was three or four at the time, she did not get to come. Special. Yes, I felt special. yeah ah But, yeah, Annie was wonderful. I loved it yeah so, so much. ah It's a Hard Knock Life is still I think one of the all-time great songs. ah Yeah, and then the movie, when the movie came out, my sister and I used to watch it On the regular. Yeah. yeah Excellent movie.
00:02:27
Speaker
And so we grew up around the same era, of the 80s in Australia. um And so big musicals came, they came to Australia kind of for the first time, I think, then with the big big Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals.
00:02:40
Speaker
um And I've spoken a few times on this podcast, especially with my mother and my brother, about Cats and my experience going to see Cats in 1988 in Sydney.
00:02:50
Speaker
And I believe you have your own. personal. do, I do. So I saw it in Perth, I guess sometime after that, presumably it toured subsequently.
00:03:01
Speaker
And i can just remember being in the audience before the show and the cats came out and this cat like launched itself over this woman but she didn't immediately notice and then suddenly she did notice and she yelled out bloody hell and my sister and I were like oh this is really exciting and I think maybe we hadn't been able to to get seats next to my parents so not only uh had this woman sworn in the theater
Nina's Transition from Gymnastics to Dance
00:03:31
Speaker
but also
00:03:32
Speaker
ah we weren't sitting next to mum and dad. so It's like your own day out without your parents. It was pretty exciting. And, yeah, Lauren and I loved Cats, my sister, that is Lauren. Yeah, we loved Cats very much. We already knew all the songs, I think probably a similar experience to your own.
00:03:49
Speaker
And, um yeah, we're doing regular lounge room performances, dances. And I actually a few years later for the English speaking board exam,
00:04:02
Speaker
Did Mungo Geri and Rumpelteaser, yeah, for one of the parts. I actually can't remember now how the English speaking board works, but I do remember.
00:04:12
Speaker
I didn't sing it. I said it as the poem, ah but I dressed. You dressed. In a unitard. Yeah. Ear and tails and so on. Yeah. And appropriate acrobatics.
00:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, fantastic. Yeah. indeed you um you went and saw And you said you went to Sydney saw Les Mis as well? Yeah, we saw Les Mis. So my parents had seen Les Mis in 1986. So we were in the UK until 1983 and then we moved to Australia and we went for a visit um in 1986 back to England to see all our friends.
00:04:50
Speaker
And my parents had seen Mis then. and Lauren and I were just a little bit too young. i think we were 11 and 8. eight And so when it came to Australia, the same thing actually is with Cats. We already knew the music because ah my folks had a cassette tape recording of.
00:05:09
Speaker
We had vinyl. I mean, that's so much cooler. We were not so cool. uh but yeah so we had the the tape and we used to listen to it all the time and so yeah by the time it came to Perth we were really oh sorry no by the time we saw it in Sydney we were really ready and uh yeah was really exciting and I remember the revolving stage really blew my tiny mind I don't think I saw Les Mis until I was in my 20s oh wow yeah But I knew Phantom. We had Phantom on LP and um Cats. We had the double cassette of Cats, which I used to wear out.
00:05:47
Speaker
um But, yeah, Phantom, I didn't see that until was 16, so in the mid-90s when that came, and the Entertainment Centre. Yeah. The chandeliers. and Oh, yes. It was such an era of, I mean, Andrew Lloyd Webber at his peak, really, 70s and 80s.
00:06:02
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I mean, that is, I think,
00:06:08
Speaker
I still think it's actually really awesome. um And for my mum's, oh, God, I can't remember which birthday it was. ah birthday, maybe a big birthday, maybe not.
00:06:21
Speaker
ah There was a few years ago there was a remount of Fame Is and I decided to take my mum for her birthday. And I started, like, as soon as it started, I started to cry.
00:06:32
Speaker
I just was like, it's just really good music. It really... um Yeah, it gets you in the feels. Yeah. It's good stuff. I love a
Nina's Path to Arts Criticism
00:06:41
Speaker
musical. Yeah, me too. Yeah. So you moved into dance at a relatively late stage in your teen years, so 19. Yeah.
00:06:50
Speaker
which is a lot later than a lot of young dancers do. What kind of got you into doing that? Yeah, I'd done gymnastics through high school and um i really I really loved that, and but it was a school thing, like I was on the school gymnastics team. I didn't do gymnastics outside of school.
00:07:09
Speaker
ah And so when I finished school, there wasn't really an avenue to keep doing that. And in some ways I didn't want to, but I really missed gymnastics. being physically active in that kind of whole body way. and i And I joined UDS, as I know you did, yes, when I started uni. So that was fun and I did that for a year.
00:07:33
Speaker
And then just lost its charm for me and I was kind of like, no, this isn't this isn't what I'm after and yeah I need to find something else. And I had a friend who was also from UDS who was also like, yeah, I want to i want to do something else uh and so we looked through recreate the uwa magazine and found at this adult beginner ballet class yeah and she was like oh how about this adult beginner ballet class and i was like oh yeah i know about that but it's on saturdays and i work on saturdays and she's like oh no this time it's not it says it's on tuesday things so i was like okay cool let's do do it
00:08:14
Speaker
ballet and I just I fell in love with it yeah just really and my whole week so it was Tuesday nights the whole week was like about anticipating Tuesdays and then the zenith on Tuesdays and I actually got to go to ballet and then and then it would you know it would be over and then I would have to wait a whole week and eventually I discovered that this teacher actually ran classes elsewhere yeah and so I could go other times of the week and yeah just kind of it kind of snowballed um and she so she put adult students in for exams and one day she said to me look I think you could do an exam and I was like oh really was like yeah I really do and she wanted to enter me for pre-elementary which you did valid' yeah just as a pre-teen yeah so pre-elementary is quite high up um
00:09:06
Speaker
the rungs and I kind of knew that and it was when I passed that exam that was when I was like okay um this is something that I must be okay at yeah uh this is an exam that kids normally do after they've been doing I don't know six or seven years of ballet and I've done it after two years um maybe it's not insane to start thinking about this and all that physical kind of uh technique training through gymnastics yeah and the physicality of it yeah no it made a big difference and I didn't have any aspirations to be a dancer uh partly because I knew that I didn't have the technique but also personality wise I'm not um I do enjoy performing but I wouldn't want it to be how I live yeah um
00:09:57
Speaker
So but then at was it 24 you went to WAPA? Yeah, 23. So yeah, so I passed this exam and I started thinking maybe it's not insane to consider
The Changing Landscape of Arts Criticism
00:10:12
Speaker
ah looking at dance as a career and I kind of was like interested in choreography and teaching and and criticism actually because I was at ah u w doing an arts degree and my major was English. yeah So I did from the very outset I was like, oh, Christianism might be a thing for me.
00:10:31
Speaker
um Yeah, so i went along to WAPA to inquire. They had to been at the open day and yeah yeah lined up at open day to speak to Nanette Hassell, the head of dance, and I explained my situation to her and she was really encouraging and she was like, yeah, come along and audition.
00:10:50
Speaker
yeah So I did. And, yeah, I did the audition. The first time I didn't get into the BA, I got into the certificate and I did certificate for a year and then I tried again yeah and got into the Bachelor, yeah. Doing ballet or contemporary? Contemporary, yeah. yeah The Bachelor, feel like it's changed a bit now, but at that point, don't know, maybe it is still the same. The Bachelor implied a contemporary dance major and the diploma was the classical.
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah, right. um The classical major. And um we still did a lot of ballet, though. We did it every every day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those big Sydney Dance Company, they do ballet every day. Yes.
00:11:32
Speaker
But I feel like Sydney Dance Company, i know you've worked there. Sydney Dance Company, it's contemporary, of course, but you you can't really be a Sydney Dance Company dancer that without a very strong ballet background. It's quite grounded in in classical technique, even though I wouldn't describe it as classical.
00:11:52
Speaker
yeah yeah no and so WAPA was a you know time what did you enjoy your time at WAPA seems interesting question i I'm glad I went yeah and there were some incredible moments I think doing the student uh we had a student work show every year where we um performed work that had been choreographed by students uh it was you had to audition um to be a choreographer. So you would you would start your work with your dancers, then do the audition and then the works would get chosen from there.
00:12:30
Speaker
And, yeah, so I was lucky I got to be a choreographer um and also a dancer in that show. And, yeah, that was definitely my highlight life was those student work shows. What years were you 98, 2000. the corner doing film and TV, causing trouble.
00:12:48
Speaker
I think we did a project working with the dancers. really? And, yeah, they kind of like make this short film. It was just strange. Yeah, did collaborate with someone from film and TV at one point.
00:13:02
Speaker
It was a man, so it definitely wasn't me. It was a man. An older man. can't remember his name. But, yeah, so. There lot of older men. I can imagine. ah But, yeah, improvisation was the other thing I really loved. We had an awesome teacher for improv.
00:13:20
Speaker
his second year. We had Neil Adams who was on staff and he did a lot of site-specific work with us and he he once took us to Siffering Court Gardens and we improvised in the gardens, I think much to the astonishment of the lawyer so lawyers floating in and out of Siffering Court Gardens. But it was quite joyful.
00:13:42
Speaker
um But ah just to give a balanced report, I think It was, I think I was fairly behind because I didn't have many years of training and although obviously, you know, I obviously had some capability because I got into the program, there's lots of ways in which I'm not that strong as a dancer and, know,
00:14:14
Speaker
ah there were lots of areas where I struggled and it was just, yeah, it was a lot. ah Yeah, just very challenging. And just the sheer energy that you use ah dancing, you know, we would do three hours of technique in the morning and then usually at least another hour and a half in some ah like choreography or improv or ah rehearsals.
00:14:37
Speaker
There were days where we really did just dance the entire day from 9 to 5.30. Yeah, and they were and it was such a, I think having come from Arts at UWA, ah the shock of being in a course where you were there, like it was like a full-time job in terms of your contact hours. it was You were just there all the time.
00:14:57
Speaker
and And I had a job as well. So I just, I had very, very little job. um spare time of any description in those years and I was constantly physically exhausted. yeah But yeah, I mean, everyone was physically exhausted and just um it was kind of a joke that people were always crying.
00:15:17
Speaker
I think because we were all so tired. Yes, probably. We used to joke at Sydney Dance Company where there'd be dance emergencies. Yeah. There's real emergencies and then there's dance emergencies and people would come and run offices. You know, this is really important. So-and-so strained their knee. I was like, cool.
00:15:34
Speaker
Should we treat it? Yeah. Okay. Oh, my God. Tears. It like everyone just calm down. oh yeah. Dance emergency. Yeah. Yeah, no, there were, I feel like the dance emergencies, I mean, obviously people did get injured. Yeah. But a lot of our dance emergencies were like, so-and-so is really upset because a teacher said whatever or didn't say anything. Yeah. people would sometimes cry after class because they hadn't had any feedback. Right. Yeah.
00:16:02
Speaker
Exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. Did you, once you finished up at WAPA, did you pursue any ah beat to be a dancer? No, no. So I had never, I think, yeah, I said no, I've never intended to be a dancer. And when I finished, by the time I finished, I was like, oh, do I want to do anything to do with dance? But i i was I was keen to teach. I was already doing quite a lot of teaching yeah by that point.
00:16:29
Speaker
um And when I finished, I, ah that's right. So I was on, um I was on, yeah, AusStudy. I had AusStudy and then it transitions, it did transition straight into Newstart. yeah But in order to get Newstart, you had to show you were applying for yeah jobs.
00:16:49
Speaker
Now I did have work lined up, but most of my work wasn't starting until school started because some of it was was teaching a private dance studio setting. I had some work teaching Pilates.
00:17:00
Speaker
ah But I needed to apply for jobs, but I didn't want to apply for anything too dramatic because I actually had work. So I started sneakily sending my CV just to high schools because I was like, well, they'll be on holiday anyway. yeah' fine And I just and I wasn't intending to stay on Newstart.
00:17:16
Speaker
um I was intending to come off it as soon as I had enough work. And I knew that would be when school started. ah So I sent out all these CVs and as soon as school went back my phone started ringing, I guess, with um teachers saying actually I need a specialist dance teacher, like peripatetic dance teacher. Yeah. And I'd pick up an hour here or a few hours there of being a dance teacher and after six months of being paid the peripatetic rate, which was something like $27.33 an hour ah for sporadic work, I was like,
00:17:52
Speaker
maybe I should just do my diphead. Yeah. And so I did. I went back and yeah i did a diphead. Yeah, right. yeah Excellent. So
Founding of Seesaw Magazine
00:18:02
Speaker
on to onto the other topic we were going to talk about, people um around the idea of arts criticism. So you have been writing reviews and working in arts criticism. As you said, your English to great arts degree um from UWA and Yeah, so kind of what got you into that kind of area? Yeah, and so it's funny. For years I used to say ah that i had not graduated thinking about going and they're becoming a critic, but then ah at one of there was a big WAPA reunion a few years ago and one of the girls from our year pulled out the program from our graduating show, which had our bios. Hilarious, but anyway.
00:18:42
Speaker
And in my bio I actually said, Nina hopes to, be a dance critic so I was like oh that's interesting different to what I've been telling everyone i had that with my school reunion and um 10-year reunion it's like oh running people say I'm organizing it and they're all like of course you are that's what you did at school you organized events yeah Did I?
00:19:04
Speaker
Was I that obvious, that person? But apparently. Yeah, no, I'd completely forgotten that I'd had that aim for graduation. But I certainly didn't do anything about it on leaving. i wouldn't I actually wouldn't have known where to start. I wouldn't have known how you take that first step. ah So I didn't do anything about it and I became a high school teacher.
00:19:22
Speaker
And i after four years ah now after three years of teaching high school, I was like, oh, this is not my forever job. and I started looking around for other work and I spent the whole of that fourth year of being a teacher um just trying, doing applications for jobs. I just wanted to work in the arts. I was pretty unfussy ah but I was not having any joy breaking in and um and I didn't realise that you really have to start at the ground and and that it's a good idea to volunteer and, you know, all those kinds of things. Anyway,
00:20:02
Speaker
ah eventually a job came up for Ausdance. Ausdance was advertising for an editor for Dance West magazine, which was their members. yeah You probably remember it actually. yeah So they were advertising, they needed an editor and I saw this ad and I was like, sounds like something I could do. But i should say this was not actually a job job. yes Dance West was a quarterly magazine and the payment was $1,000 an issue. Right. So this was like almost like a well-paid hobby. um
00:20:36
Speaker
However, I was so desperate by this point because I'd spent the whole year trying to get a job and I'd come really close at the museum yeah and the museum had said to me, look, you were second in line for this job as an education officer.
00:20:51
Speaker
um We've got heaps of casual work if you're ever interested. And so I had that kind of in the background and I was like, I'm going to go for this Dance West Enders job and if I get that job, it is a sign. Yeah.
00:21:06
Speaker
And I'm going to quit teaching even though I have nothing lined up and I'm going to take the job as editor and I will go and tell the museum that I'm available for casual work and I will do relief work until such time as I find full employment in in the arts sector. Yeah.
00:21:23
Speaker
And, yes, I went for this job and and I got it. um So then I was writing and people were seeing my writing. And ah one day i got a phone call from Claudia Alessi. Oh, yeah.
00:21:39
Speaker
And she, so had been a piece written in Dance Australia, Dance Australia used to do, and and I think actually still do do because I just wrote one of them.
00:21:51
Speaker
ah overview pieces about um each state for the year. yeah So it would be like 2007 in overview. Yeah. And the one that had been written for Western Australia had been completely about ah West Australian ballet. Right.
00:22:08
Speaker
And so Clouds was understandably quite upset because a lot of other things had happened. Yeah. and so she said to me, Nina, would you consider writing a response to this? Yeah, right.
00:22:20
Speaker
And I was like, I mean, I totally couldn't. I know what I would say. i said, but, like, it's not going to published. No one knows me. And she was like, oh, no, it's okay. She said, I've already spoken to the editor, to Karen Arnelson, and she's expecting to hear it from you. So, know, just write your piece and send it in. Yeah.
00:22:43
Speaker
yeah I So I wrote my piece and I sent it in and it was published and I was paid. And then um then Claudia was like, you know, you should also do reviews. And I was like, no, I just, no.
00:23:00
Speaker
And she's like, no, go on, I've suggested it. Like, you should do it. So and she again, she put in a good word for me with Karen. So I spoke to Karen and Karen said, look, you know, you can try. it just said, you have any samples of your writing? And I did from,
00:23:18
Speaker
ah We had to write reviews for WAPA. Yeah. So found um ah found my, so all my all my reviews were on floppy disk. So, i
Mentorship and Future of Arts Criticism
00:23:29
Speaker
but I had hard copies of them as well. So I retyped them, made them just a tiny bit better than they were and sent them. And she was like, these seem pretty good.
00:23:37
Speaker
Let's give you a trial run. Yeah, great. And so, yeah, I wrote ah my first trial review, which didn't get published. It was just for her to see what was like. It was abstract. ah one of the mixed bills at PICA.
00:23:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah, when I was comms manager there. what Right. Maybe one of the, maybe prime cuts or something like that. Anyway, so anyway, past muster. Yeah, great. And she basically said to me, you're on.
00:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. And, but yeah, so that was around 2007, I think, yeah that I started writing. But it was really like Claudia, if Claudia hadn't encouraged me, I don't know that I would have.
00:24:17
Speaker
ever thought to do it yeah um it's amazing those relationships and those connections just you know careers don't have a logical path and and you know they're so important yeah yeah I I do often think about that and I think one of the definitely one of the valuable things about going to WAPA was those contacts and that was how I knew Claudia yeah being one of our teachers yeah yeah uh yeah definitely ah yeah, and has hugely shaped the direction of my career is the contacts I made in that institution.
00:24:55
Speaker
And so the idea of arts criticism, I feel like from that point that we both know from um like the mid-2000s, now 20 years later, it seems to be the idea of criticism seems to be eroded and it sort of short, sharp grabs and doesn't seem to there doesn't seem to exist that much anymore here in WA at least, um this one paper town.
00:25:18
Speaker
um and everything online and why do you think that kind of that erosion has kind of happened? Yeah so think there's a few things at play a big one is ah sort of the demise of arts journalism more broadly and also the demise of the concept of paying for journalism actually and so the the model for journalism, the sort of business model for it has been like really kind of shaken up and turned upside down by the rise of of the internet. Yeah. Anyone can, anyone can be a writer. and Anyone can write and people don't want to pay for content. And I include myself in that. This is not, um, I'm not like, oh, I'm this high and mighty person and I pay for my content.
00:26:11
Speaker
Not true. Um, I, pay for a couple of things but not heaps um yeah so i think the
00:26:22
Speaker
the fact that um that people don't buy the newspaper anymore so much is is a big contributing factor the the media publications uh also have to make money yeah and there isn't an obvious revenue line yeah um from arts journalism and in particular I would say from criticism.
00:26:44
Speaker
ah So this is I don't agree with this but I think this is a big part of the problem that the the model for financing it is is kind of broken. Yeah, I think that I've heard before that the former editor of The West Australian very clearly states why would we give more columns and centimetres to the arts. It has no return. Like so if their pages get When it used to be the review section or the Today section in the middle of the West, there was potential to get a review every day. You know, there was so much opportunity. I mean, I wrote for the West for about nine years. Yeah. And ah my own sort of you can you can see the demise in my own trajectory in a sense.
00:27:27
Speaker
ah There was like this sort of golden age where I was just getting work all the time, getting to a review probably a couple of times a month. for dance specifically, not the arts broadly.
00:27:40
Speaker
And I used to also pick up features, dance, but also just the arts more broadly. And it just it just started to decrease yeah to decrease and decrease and decrease.
00:27:52
Speaker
And I was actually in some ways quite lucky
Episode Conclusion and Gratitude
00:27:55
Speaker
because I think like it was clear that the West was shedding its freelancers and staff writers were doing more and more of the arts writing.
00:28:06
Speaker
But I suspect that the staff writers were not brave enough to do dance. So I was i'm pretty sure one of the last ones to be yeah to be let go. And I actually didn't even really notice because at that point I had i'd started Seesaw and I was I think I actually turned down a few West reviews around that time because I was ah trying to direct my energy towards Seesaw magazine.
00:28:32
Speaker
I'm sorry, I've jumped ahead. That's all right. You want to talk about that. But have I, sorry, what was the question? Oh, why? Why it's eroded over time. Yeah, look, i think I think it is to do with commercial imperatives um and, yeah, the fact that the but old ways of funding journalism don't work anymore.
00:28:54
Speaker
What's your thoughts on Substack as a good or because, I mean, there is a way to monetise the work you do there. Yes. So I'm pretty new to Substack, I have to admit, and I'm kind of just starting to sort of get into it and starting to follow people.
00:29:11
Speaker
um I have subscribed, like paid subscription, I think just to one. I've subscribed to Charlotte Wood. Yeah. um But I would... happily actually subscribed to more I just feel like I'm a bit new to it I need to work out what's happening um yeah look I'm into it I think it's great my my only concern is it's so tenuous for the writer yeah uh I mean it's like I suppose it's like everything it's the gig economy um
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's awesome and it's something I would consider doing myself. I'm certainly happy to pay for content through that avenue.
00:29:58
Speaker
ah But, yeah, my concern is around how you make a sustain sustainable, yeah you know, career from if that's the model.
00:30:11
Speaker
I mean, not that not that when I was a freelance writer for the West I wasn't getting paid particularly well for my pieces. I mean, that that also wasn't really sustainable.
00:30:22
Speaker
ah But at least I knew what I was getting. yeah You know, it was a set fee and it was, um yeah, I knew that if I got um commissioned that I would get that much money and I could budget from there.
00:30:38
Speaker
And, I mean, the rise of, like, Fringe World here in WA, so when Fringe first started, I remember the West used to have whole sections of review like content reviews and stories about fringe shows that that seem to dwindle over time. And I think that is often related to sponsorship and relationships in other ways.
00:30:56
Speaker
But that kind of fringe style commodification of art, I hate to say that, but like, you know, it's sort of the the fringe experience is about going, having a party, have fun and have an enjoyable time.
00:31:09
Speaker
It's not necessarily about the art itself and, you know, um you know talking about the fringe feed where any audience member can can make review to say the reviews and give their two cents worth so it kind of like dilutes inequality criticism and in that way do you think that kind of um that kind of the fringe model and how fringe is kind of like yeah kind of turned and society's kind of moving at this fast pace it means those long-form criticisms don't have a re place yes well i think actually and just the
00:31:41
Speaker
words long form criticism like part of the problem also is attention spans yes uh that and and I think also of this perception that people don't want to read long pieces and so yeah I guess where where there is money to spend the perception is that it needs to be this kind of short sharp uh bite yeah uh rather than thought through criticism.
00:32:14
Speaker
ah And actually it reminds me of when I was writing for the West in the sort of latter years of that time, the West introduced star ratings for their reviews and I was really unhappy about it. Yeah, I remember that.
00:32:31
Speaker
ah my reviews are marked, all of the shows are marked out of five. Like if i have I had to give it a mark, at least make it out of 20 so that there's room for some yeah um subtlety. But no, it was out of five.
00:32:42
Speaker
And I remember saying it feels like they're taking my review my 600 words or my 500 words, however yeah many words I've been given, um and just like compressing it yeah because I knew that lot of people would just look for the stars. They wouldn't even read my review. And coming from the other point of view of that as well from, um you know, trying to market and get people to review your shows, putting professional...
00:33:06
Speaker
you know, professional works on the same rating system as WAPA shows and the WAPA shows gets five stars because it's all fun and entertainment and this, you know, it just kind of like I just remember being really kind of frustrated by that. It's sort of how can they be compared? They're not comparable.
00:33:21
Speaker
i This was a concern for me as well that I would, I had to use the same system for, say, West Australian Ballet as for an independent dancer who graduated a few years ago and is making music her work on a shoestring. Yeah. ah And there's no sort of way to bridge that. And actually with those stars, there's no um there's no rubric to tell you what the stars mean, either as a reader or as a writer.
00:33:49
Speaker
um Yeah. So I think, but getting back to the fringe feed and ah the idea that people don't have the stamina. Yeah.
00:34:00
Speaker
And I do think it is, i mean, yes, to some degree it's true our attention spans have been shortened, but I don't think it's as bad as the decision makers necessarily think. And I think if you do give people, if good writing is good writing, oh ah if it is if it is decent writing, it will be engaging and people will read it. Mm.
00:34:25
Speaker
to the end. I think a word limit is a wonderful thing. um But I think to say anything meaningful about a show, like say 45-minute show, you really do need at least 400 words as a minimum to say anything kind of with any substance. Yeah.
00:34:42
Speaker
And that that it engages and and also um very few shows are just, you know, good or bad like there's usually a whole lot of shades of grey going on there and and you need some words to be able to talk about that yeah and um and I guess also and I'm probably jumping ahead of it but to be able to give information that is going to be useful not just for the readers but also for the artists yeah um yeah yeah and so what's that role that that kind of
00:35:22
Speaker
um relationship between the artist and the critic and what in what important role do you see that being good criticism can help in the development of an artist? Yeah, so I just think it's, I mean, of course I think it's so important when I'm a critic but I do believe it's really important.
00:35:40
Speaker
I mean, good criticism for an artist, it it gives them something that they can use as evidence. Mm-hmm. And particularly in um my art form dance, it it feels so ephemeral.
00:35:56
Speaker
I mean obviously it is recorded yeah and so on but it's not like a play where you have a script yeah or music where you have a recording in the same way. Of course there there can be a video but really it it it exists in the moment and I think for dance makers ah to show the value of what they do,
00:36:19
Speaker
ah that that criticism is is super important. And i think also because dance, it's not an art form in Australia is considered to be very accessible and it's not an art form in Australia that a lot of people are informed about, particularly contemporary dance, ballet less so, but contemporary dance, I think people are like, I don't know how to do this.
00:36:45
Speaker
And criticism is really a way to kind of hold up hand and say this is how, is how you do it, this is how you can engage with this work. And, yeah, I think for artists, yeah, I feel like in contemporary dance critics are really a bridge.
00:37:03
Speaker
Mm. um between artists and audiences and in in all art forms, but I feel particularly for contemporary dance. Yeah, absolutely. um And, yeah, obviously also, you know, the evidence that you can use on a funding application to say, i did this thing and it was reasonably well received. Yeah, yeah. Here's something that so-and-so wrote. Mm-hmm.
00:37:21
Speaker
ah that that is huge and then you know also more obviously I guess you know the quotes for your next poster I remember I remember there was there was a show at the Rack of Bites many years ago that took a there was a review and it was awful a review but they took it could have been great and they just took took all the words out in between it was like could have been great however um and they just like it was great And that was like all over the posters and it was sort of like what?
00:37:49
Speaker
and Interesting. Yes. The pre-alternative facts period of the arts. Yeah. Gosh, yes. Yeah. And so publications like um like Real Time, Real Time was a national magazine which really focused on contemporary art forms um and had those long-form critiques and was a really important magazine, especially when i was working at Pika. um It was just such a, the relationship there was really strong. Yeah.
00:38:16
Speaker
um What do you kind of hold? you think that's kind of a gap that's left? Yeah, so I think like a publication like Real Time, which isn't so much reaching to the mainstream, it is more for your educated audience.
00:38:31
Speaker
For me, that's about the development of the art form and those conversations that are maybe a little bit more in-house but that keep, I think those conversations are really important um and and kind of that becomes the kind of the hothouse in which new stuff is born.
00:38:52
Speaker
yeah So, yeah, that's that's the gap that I see from the demise of a publication like that is that kind of, yeah, the the kind of more academic and intellectual thinking about the art form.
00:39:06
Speaker
um that that keeps like new ideas kind of bubbling and sizzling. Yeah, it was a great great publication. Yeah. Yeah. had a say Excellent.
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah. yeah No, it's a huge loss. um I don't think they transitioned very well online. They kind of had the that period of where street mags were ah big thing and they were kind of around that time, mid-2000s or early 2000s, and the transition into being more online it didn't quite translate as well. Yeah, which is funny because I feel like having worked on both print and online publications, um even though love print publications and much prefer them as a reader, as a writer I so much prefer working online.
00:39:55
Speaker
You can edit what you did, what's been put up. I just I really love that if you see a mistake you can fix it. Yeah. um Even though obviously we're always aiming for there not to be a mistake. Yes. um But, yeah, the ease of it and also just the immediacy of it, um being able to write a review and it be up within 24 hours of you seeing that show, that's magic because i got benefit the one thing that we didn't talk about in our conversation about the value of reviews is, of course, bums on seats. Yeah, yeah. ah
00:40:27
Speaker
I guess that's the obvious s one, but it's a really important one. Because a lot of people won't go unless they've got a trusted source that tells them yeah that, yes, this is worth paying money for yes absolutely and um and i think that's where the sorry jumping back to the fringe feed concept i actually do feel like the fringe feed concept is is good i don't i don't want to suggest that it doesn't have value i think it does but it needs to be alongside long-form criticism not instead yeah of and um yeah the uh i think yeah where that long-form criticism
00:41:05
Speaker
comes in is you know that you are getting someone who is actually being paid to give a considered opinion and yeah not to just react because something annoyed them.
00:41:16
Speaker
Yes. um And, yeah, that's, I mean, the risk of those fringe feed ones is people, um they're upset about a particular thing or they're or they're just in a bad mood or they just didn't like the show but they haven't sort of stopped to give it a hint. And I think the other thing I would say for me as a writer is because I did train at Whopper um and I think this is one of the most valuable things I took from it is I do have a sense of how much of themselves performers and makers put into staging this stuff and what you know that you leave a tiny piece of yourself out there for the world um and I think knowing that I always come to shows with that in mind you know like this is something that's
00:42:05
Speaker
people, one person or more people, have really just given everything to for however long um and they are making this brave move and sharing it with us and I need to treat it with respect. Yeah. Has there been ever been anything that you just hated?
00:42:24
Speaker
Yeah, I have seen stuff that I hated. You've been diplomatic still along the way. Yeah. so one example that I remember is I went and saw a fringe show It had come out from Georgia, as in Europe, not in America.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah. um And I actually don't remember much about it except that it was absolutely appalling. And, oh, Rock I Stedford came to mind. It was like watching a Rock I Stedford. Yeah, right. um And, I mean, Rock I Stedfords are great. Yeah. But, you know, they are what they are and you go in with that expectation. This was built as, you know, contemporary dance and cutting edge and so on. Anyway,
00:43:02
Speaker
i I was like, oh, I just feel really funny about this, not because I minded writing a scathing reviewer. That was fine.
00:43:13
Speaker
But there was such a limited budget. This was for the West. Such a limited budget for shows in relation to the entirety of Finch. And I was like, you know what, I'm going send a message to Steve, the editor, and I'm going to say, look, I can write this review for you and I'm happy to.
00:43:31
Speaker
but it is going to be a one-star review. i hated it. It was terrible. Yeah. and I don't think anyone should see it. And perhaps you might like to reallocate the budget that you put towards this to something more deserving. Yeah.
00:43:45
Speaker
And he got back to me immediately and he said, thank you, I would much prefer to do that. So that that was one example. But there have been others where where it has needed to be published where I've been unimpressed and, um
00:44:04
Speaker
yeah, I mean, you know because you know my work. i i am a diplomatic reviewer. I'm not horrible. I always i always try um try to be i want to be honest with my opinion ah but i also look around at the other people in the audience. So there was one show I saw, won't name it because it feels mean, but I really did not like it.
00:44:36
Speaker
ah But at the end of the show, possibly it got a standing ovation. Like it was very, was a very mainstream popular show. And so I just made sure that I acknowledged that yeah and made it really clear that I did not like it, but actually most of the theatre did.
00:44:52
Speaker
yeah And I think I finished by saying, Maybe you should just make up your own mind and come along. Yeah. um Yeah, so that's ah that's one way deal with, ah you know, something that's really dreadful. But, you know, it's the same as anything.
00:45:06
Speaker
It does depend who's putting it on. Yeah. And if the people who are putting it on are big enough to absorb um a bad review, then I'm much more likely to kind of go hard. Yeah. um I would always be more gentle in a situation where,
00:45:25
Speaker
come punching down essentially. Yeah, exactly. Not being very helpful. Yeah, yeah. so yeah, it's hard though. It's a fine line because I have a responsibility to the readers. um There needs to be honesty. They need to know what they're getting. But I do think there is a way to ah to say that and to communicate clearly without being destructive. Yeah.
00:45:48
Speaker
So it about six years ago when you started Seesaw? Yeah, 2017. That's eight years ago. Eight years ago. time but two years don't count in there with COVID. Yeah.
00:45:59
Speaker
So you started Seesaw, sorry. um Yeah. So you started Seesaw which was an online magazine about reviews, things that you see and what to see and what you saw. see what we saw.
00:46:10
Speaker
So what was the driver for starting this? Yeah, so I started it with Vanya Bromelow and we had been talking about this idea of starting our own arts magazine for I feel like a couple of years by the time we did it. And the reason we wanted to do it was because Vanya was also a freelancer for the West and we were just watching the coverage diminish and the pages get smaller and smaller and the opportunities get smaller. And of course, our own employment ah becoming less.
00:46:39
Speaker
So yeah, it was it was very much on our minds. we We knew it was needed. And then the thing that kind of propelled us into action was we suddenly got worried that someone else would do it right and so I don't know why what made us suddenly get worried but we did we got we got anxious and um so we were like oh let's let's just do this thing yeah and we decided but we would just do it and then seek funding uh that we would make a product yeah ah and yeah I
00:47:14
Speaker
Looking back, I just can't decide if that was a good idea or not. ah But nonetheless, that is that is how we started. Everything was voluntary.
00:47:25
Speaker
And so what over the time working on it, what was the kind of main things that you learnt that you didn't expect? That's a good question. um i think so one of the things is definitely around that concept of doing something voluntarily. And what I learned was that when you do something voluntarily and e everyone around you is a volunteer, there is no, um there are no parameters. Yeah.
00:47:59
Speaker
And you can land up spending like any amount of time and energy on this thing. And it was actually so much easier once we had a budget partly because we were getting paid, but it wasn't just that. It was also because there were limits.
00:48:19
Speaker
We knew that we could not publish more than reviews a month because that was how much money we had to pay for those reviews. There was a little bit of wiggle room in that the editors, we were on a salary, so we perhaps could do more if there was something that came up and we were like, oh, we absolutely have to cover this.
00:48:37
Speaker
There was some room to manoeuvre there. ah But, yeah, essentially there were there were endpoints to what we could do. um Yeah, so that I think that was probably one of the biggest things that I learnt.
00:48:52
Speaker
I did that um when I was working, when I was involved with TEDxPers, which was all volunteer and it has to be volunteer because of the TED rules. TEDx events are all volunteer. Wow. Yeah. um It's like a cult.
00:49:06
Speaker
But anyway, um you... the amount of time put into that and the amount of enthusiasm and the amount of people. those I can do that. That be fun. I was like this is actually a really important part of event management and you're just going to do it for fun. yeah Maybe don't.
00:49:21
Speaker
Maybe I should do it. Anyway, so i ended up kind of like people kind of realising that, yeah, those some tasks aren't that fun yeah and ended up kind of falling on me as the general manager and, yeah, yeah sort of ah as a volunteer role.
00:49:35
Speaker
yeah it was so it was a busy day. Yeah, so in a way I feel like my experience at Seesaw in those early days was kind of the opposite. I was amazed at how many really fantastic writers were willing to write for nothing yeah support of the project. Yeah, that's great. um And actually just, yeah, the the the love um for the arts. Yeah.
00:50:02
Speaker
amongst people who write professionally, it was quite profound. I mean, obviously, Vanya and I felt like this because we were also doing it for nothing. yeah But I didn't ever question that because that was our decision.
00:50:15
Speaker
um Yeah, probably the one that amazed me the most, although in retrospect was not surprising at all, was David Zampatti. I think because I didn't really know him. And even though we were both writers at the West,
00:50:26
Speaker
ah we because we were both freelancers, we never came across each other. And in my head he was this sort of, you know, distant figure of greatness.
00:50:37
Speaker
and spent lot of time in Foyer's post shows. A lot of them, yes. His willingness to write for us voluntarily really surprised me. But as I say, in retrospect, it's not surprising. He was actually incredibly generous towards the arts and that is just actually par for the course.
00:50:57
Speaker
But I didn't know that. um And who else? It was Jan Hallam who came on board in those early days. and You've built quite a good stable of writers and things. Yes, wait there is a really fantastic group of people, who group of writers.
00:51:16
Speaker
And you did some mentoring through that process and mentoring young writers? We did. So ah I think because it was voluntary in those early days,
00:51:27
Speaker
ah there were also a number of young writers who approached us and said, oh look, you know, I'm really keen to get to start doing some criticism. And so, yeah, it was kind of an obvious ah and obvious thing to do because if if they had some talent.
00:51:49
Speaker
yeah But, we yeah, we were pretty lucky, again, in that, There were a number of younger, particularly in the visual arts actually, writers that got in touch to say, look I'd really like to have a go.
00:52:03
Speaker
And, yeah, so we did a lot of informal mentoring of emerging writers and then just actually was right before the pandemic, Pepp Festival got in touch to find out if we would do something work partner with them to do a first nations mentoring yeah program for yeah emerging first nations writers and so then a lot of it became formalized yeah great and we worked um yeah with just such beautiful talented writers like barb hostelec and bruce denny um more recently um zali morgan uh elona mcguire has done some writing with us beautiful beautiful first nations writers and that's
00:52:49
Speaker
have' been a huge yeah huge privilege um so do you think when in this uh age now a lot of online magazines and things like that do you think there is ah role for mainstream media anymore when it comes to the arts and arts writing oh dear god i mean I really hope so so yeah I really hope so because ah don't know how else I don't know how else we can build audiences um And I don't know how else we can get those other benefits that I was talking about before.
00:53:26
Speaker
How else do you yeah spread the word? How else do you generate conversations? Yeah, and people are so sick of, you know, advertising campaigns and things. You need that kind of rigorous, um you know, trusted source to say, yes, this is worth it. so Totally. and um And I think that thing about, yeah, an advertising campaign, everyone understands that an advertising campaign is what it is. yeah um It's the people who are making the work, promoting, well, not necessarily exactly, but it's, you know, it's paid. Mm-hmm.
00:53:57
Speaker
people being paid to say you should see this. And I think, you know, we're living in a time where actually people are a lot more media savvy than they used to be and um they do want to read something that isn't but isn't driven by people bye um the payment that that being that's being received from the organisation. Yeah. um Yeah.
00:54:25
Speaker
So what do you think, what exciting things are around the corner when it comes to arts criticism, do you think? Well, ah Seesaw is back. It's exciting.
00:54:35
Speaker
Yeah. um So, yeah, I mean, that's exciting to see that that will reboot my understanding is I should just say I'm not currently are employed or involved yeah um with it so I am speaking I mean I'm not speaking with total distance because I founded it obviously I'm fairly interested but I am yeah I'm not uh set to directly benefit at this point um but yeah and I am really excited i think just because
00:55:08
Speaker
um Vanya and I wouldn't have started it and then um so it then subsequently Rosalind Appleby was co-editor for a number of years alongside me.
00:55:20
Speaker
Rosalind and I wouldn't have put so much work into it if we didn't think it was needed. yeah And it's it's just actually a relief to see that it is re-emerging.
00:55:34
Speaker
um Beyond that, I think, I mean, there are a number of platforms that I see happening around uh it feels like people are still writing I think the the thing that worries me about a lot of the platforms um that I kind of see quoted and occasionally come across the writing online is that I don't think it's paid yeah journalism and I think if you want quality journalism it does need to be paid for yes so
00:56:09
Speaker
I guess I'm excited to see that because I'm excited to see that people still are engaging and feeling like it's important. But I do get a little bit nervous ah about the sort of increased expectation that people will write for free. And I'm surprised actually also even now how often i get asked if I will just review something for fun. Yeah.
00:56:34
Speaker
and I just did air quotes for the business. Yeah, I won't i won't review unpaid. No, arts work is real work. Needs pay. It does need to be paid and um and and it needs to be scheduled in. i can't um I can't just do it. Occasionally I've seen,
00:56:54
Speaker
in in the last few years where Seesaw hasn't been running and I haven't necessarily had a platform to write on. And, you know, occasionally I'll see something and I'll be like, oh, I just wish I was reviewing this. And people will sometimes say, well, why don't you just write something, you know, put it on your blog for your own volition.
00:57:10
Speaker
And I'm just like, no, because actually for me it is still work even though obviously I really love it ah And so I need to have set aside time to do it in my weekend or in my week And so i actually can't just randomly do it because like most people in this day and age, I'm pretty busy. yeah ah So it's not even just about money. It's also about having set aside the time.
00:57:38
Speaker
And I think also going in, like when I go in to watch a show and I'm reviewing, I'm in a particular headspace and I take a notebook. yeah um I would never choose to write entirely from memory.
00:57:54
Speaker
Nice. Can't trust that. So more broadly, finally, what what in the arts world are you excited about that's coming that you kind of see where the arts is kind of headed?
00:58:06
Speaker
Yeah. hi Okay, so Strat Dance really excites me under the leadership of Sophie Burgoyne and James O'Hara. So great. So great. Perth Moves and Perth Festival is just amazing.
00:58:22
Speaker
I mean, so I work at King Street Arts Centre now and um the atmosphere in King Street Arts Centre for those three weeks that Perth Moves is on with ah there's all these workshops running and international and interstate teachers coming to run these workshops and local as well because we, I should just say, we have amazing leaders in Perth. Yeah, yeah.
00:58:47
Speaker
But the, and and people, yeah, People from around the country fly in to participate in these workshops. It has such an incredible reputation now nationally. um And just that, yeah, that sense of energy and buzz is really wonderful. So, yeah, that's definitely something that excites think there's a real, light with Stripe, there, yeah, real focus on the community they work in and the understanding of dance and the community of dancers and what impact they can have more broadly. Yes. um
00:59:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's really exciting to see and they're just talking to them, just the passion they have for they do. Yeah. Oh, and I think also with Sophie and James, their commitment to, uh,
00:59:30
Speaker
ah exploring all the things that dance can be. Yeah. And two, reaching outside the sort of traditional parameters of contemporary dance. um And I think that's important. like In part that's important because when you look reach out to other dance genres, you increase the audience.
00:59:52
Speaker
um But also I think there's so much interesting stuff happening in those collaborations. Yeah, absolutely. um Yeah, it just really opens up what I guess concert dance, to use a sort of American term, can be.
01:00:08
Speaker
ah Yeah, but that definitely excites me. And interestingly, although um from a nostalgia point of view, I'm really sad about what for leaving the Mount Lululee campus, I am interested to see how the move to the CBD plays out.
01:00:24
Speaker
Yeah. pay out I feel like there's a lot of potential, and I mean this is one of the reasons why they're doing it, yeah ah for collaborations, obviously not just for dance, for all the arts, um for the students by being in the city. And and I really hope that ah that it will do what it's meant to do and invigorate Yegan Square and that the,
01:00:49
Speaker
um that that audiences, that there'll be more audiences for Whopper's incredible program. Like, yeah I mean, really, you know, we know it. You go and see a Whopper show and the standard is always just so unbelievably high for a fraction of what you would pay for a professional show.
01:01:07
Speaker
And, again, I'm i'm very much, i mean, maybe I should have been a marketer, I'm so much about building new audiences and I think there's a lot of potential there. Yeah, it's exciting. It's going to be really exciting.
01:01:18
Speaker
Yeah, exciting to see what happens. Yeah, yeah. And then the other group I'm always interested to hear from is Narigeku. Oh, yeah. Yeah. um so i did I did hear a little bit about a work that they've got coming up but I'm not sure i not sure if it's, ah it might be embargoed.
01:01:37
Speaker
I won't say any more, but they've got a work in development that sounds really interesting and and relevant to the times we're living in now. Yeah, fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Nina. Thank you for joining me.
01:01:50
Speaker
My pleasure, Georgia. It's been great to have a chat and chat about dance, which I love to dance. So it's good to talk about dance. It is. Thank you. Thank you.
01:02:04
Speaker
Many thanks for joining us this week on Georgia Malone's Here Goes Nothing. It's wonderful to have a chance to hear from so many artists who are taking the conversation into their own hands and making change happen.
01:02:15
Speaker
Thank you to Nina Levy for such an animated conversation. I know you were excited to sit down with Geordie, and that really shone through for a wonderful episode. For links to things that Nina and Georgia talked about, visit the Substack for Georgia Malone's Here Goes Nothing at heregoesnothingpod.substack.com.
01:02:34
Speaker
Join us next week for our final episode in this special limited series. Georgia sits down with rebel, iconoclast, director and former member of the UDS social netball team that both Georgia and I played on.
01:02:47
Speaker
Arts leader, David Riding. It's a cracker of an episode and a great way to wind up this special series. I've been Toby Malone and I am so honoured to present my sister's work this way.
01:02:59
Speaker
Thanks for listening. This podcast was made on Whadjuk Noongar Budja, a place I'm very privileged to call my home, and I acknowledge and honour all Noongar people that have been making art on this land for tens of thousands of years, and will continue to do so for generations to come.
01:03:15
Speaker
Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Original music by Lyndon Blue. This is a GM Productions Project.