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Episode 1: An Introduction with Jo Malone
97 Plays2 months ago
Welcome to the first episode of Here Goes Nothing - a dive into the impact of arts and culture on our lives.
Guest: Jo Malone
Jo Malone is currently the Head of Philanthropy at the Foundation of the WA Museum. She has had a long career in raising money for arts organisations in Perth including Perth Institute of Contemporary Arts, Perth Festival, St George's Cathedral and for a time consulted with nearly all small to medium arts organisations on their fundraising strategy. But most importantly, she is the one that took me to my first show, Peter Pan, at the age of 4. Put me in dance classes at 2 ½ and constantly supported my brother and I in anything we did which culminated for me as my first time as stage manager of the massive school production in year 12.
Mum and I talk a lot. We solve the problems of the world and discuss a wide range of topics. We aren't experts, we are the audience. We aren't always right but say things with confidence!
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Transcript
Introduction to Arts and Humanity
00:00:06
Speaker
What is it that makes us human? What makes us unique? And what adds value to your life? Often the answer to these questions can be traced back to our connection to the arts, culture and creativity. The arts is seen as, often seen as a highbrow endeavour, but it is in everybody's lives in some way. We listen to music, read books, watch movies and connect with creativity for our enjoyment or mental health.
00:00:33
Speaker
This podcast gets to the heart of what the arts is and what it means. It will explore different topics with people who have devoted their lives to the arts in some way to understand what drives them and how they connect with the arts on a personal level.
Meet the Host and Her Mother
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome to Here Goes Nothing. I'm your host, Georgia Malone. And over the course of this series, we'll explore a range of art forms and topics that help us understand the importance of the arts on a well-rounded life. In this, the first episode, we explore the premise of the podcast with my number one sounding board and the person I have most conversations with, my mum, Jo Malone.
00:01:14
Speaker
Jo has had many careers in her life, from daughter to shirt sales to working at AMEX and having written multiple books on stenciling. She has been working in fundraising for the arts since at least 2008.
00:01:30
Speaker
Over the next hour, we explore why I'm so embedded in the arts. Something I can say is all her fault. To note this conversation, we do make some grand statements which may or may not be true, but we say them with such confidence so you'll never know. But I will follow it up with show notes in my substack so you can explore the many things we talk about and debunk things along the way. Anyway, let's get started. Here goes nothing.
00:02:03
Speaker
Mum, Jo Malone, introduced us to the arts from birth. I started dance class at two and a half and saw my first show at four. And now 40 years later, I'm still at it, except for those dance classes in that illustrious performance career. So here goes nothing. Welcome, Mum. You ready for a chat? Absolutely. So you've exposed me to the arts from the beginning. um Some people don't have a choice on their religion or their support team that they follow. And for us, it was the arts.
00:02:34
Speaker
you put me into dance classes at two and a half, as I mentioned. And as, yeah, it's the beginning of a very hyper prolific performance career. So where did, why? And when did it start for you? That's a, look, I've been thinking about this since you posed the question. And it's been really interesting. It kind of brings up all these random thoughts, memories, tear to the eye and go, ah, I've forgotten about that. So,
00:03:01
Speaker
If I really think about it, it didn't start, it just was. So it's hard to actually have any particular moment. It was not the arts or culture. It was music, performance,
Jo Malone's Arts Influence and Background
00:03:13
Speaker
reading, participating. It was part a huge part of our life and as a country kid, as well as sport and mucking around. So we always sang around the piano from as early as I can remember. My grandparents played the piano. Uncle John, my step grandfather.
00:03:28
Speaker
would ask me to hum a few few bars of a new song I'd heard on the radio. And then he would play the whole thing. He was amazing. He just um he played in a dance band band until he was in his 90s. He was remarkable. Anyway, I digress. He was a huge influence. He was just lovely. My dad used to receive the new you um world classic records every month. I think it was every month.
00:03:55
Speaker
And one of my few memories of him, because he died when I was 11, was him sitting and listening to classical music in the lounge room with his pipe, yeah just communing with his music. It was otherworldly. I'd never seen an orchestra. I had no idea what it was. I didn't understand. My mum was always involved in repertory, theatre, performing, um directing. I loved seeing her on stage. She was fearless and very funny. Every birthday was a dress up.
00:04:24
Speaker
always the price winner at the fancy dress parade at every small town we lived in. um It was just something we did. It was like, it was a performance almost every moment of the day. And were there reopatory clubs in all these, these towns? If there wasn't one, mum created it. She'd move in and go, she was the president or the secretary or, you know, the the vice president of every sporting or every club in the country town we lived in. So,
00:04:54
Speaker
um Yeah, so she was that kind of bordered to when we moved to Donnybrook. yeah um she's said She was a big ballet fa fan and she saw Pavlova perform at its Majesty's Theatre. Amazing. and was yeah and it was I think that was one of the pivotal moments in her life, but she was never had the opportunity to dance.
00:05:16
Speaker
So she was really fixated almost on creating one for me. Why didn't you think she had the opportunity? And why wasn't it? Was it just because she was a country kid and there just wasn't? A country kid. And there was no ballet classes in like Southern Cross or yeah um where she started work at the age of 16. And the town's you know, Albany, I don't know. They just, I don't think it was something that people thought was important. um And she probably just didn't have. What year was that? That was so like, that was in the twenties and thirties. So they had a few things on their mind at that time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, she was born um just after the armistice of the first world war. So her name was actually Pax, which means peace yeah and Dawn Francis for her grandmother or yeah, her grandmother.
00:06:06
Speaker
So she was dawn she was born on the dawn of peace. Yeah, little did they know that was not the dawn of peace. Well, the war to end all was. Yeah, not quite. So anyway, to come back to the point. So when we moved to Donnybrook, she hired a ballet teacher to come to Donnybrook and start ballet classes. Amazing. Yeah, I was seven and that started me and I continued until after I was married, until I was 23. Yeah. So I just kept going. ah was in ballet classes all the way through school um until then. But ah by the time I was 12, puberty hit some boobs. I accepted that my dream of bret being a prima ballerina was over. I think for me as well, because I retired, I stopped ballet classes at 9, 10, because we kept moving. But it was
00:06:58
Speaker
probably for a blessing in disguise because I would have hit puberty and be sorely disappointed that I was never going to be the prime ballerina that I always dreamed of being. Well, I just went, OK, I'm not going to be a prime ballerina because I'm too tall and I'm not skinny enough. So I was always the comic relief on the stage. Yeah, I took all the character roles. I was always the lead male in an all-girls school. um And I did all that the character dance like the was doing the flamenco and the charters and the the Russian dance. And I got to wore fabulous red boots and stuff like that. So I got to do the fun things. And when mum insisted that I do a performance on point before I left school, um my ballet teacher and I devised a comedy routine yeah as a tightrope walker of me walking across the stage on point on a tightrope.
Pivotal Arts Experiences of Jo
00:07:55
Speaker
Never again, never never again. Never again. Yeah, so, and part of, to recreate, not really recreate, but coming from Mum's experience, she took me f from Donnybrook with one of my friends to see Margot Fontaine for His Majesty. So we stayed at His Majesty's hotel. I can still see the dress. Where was the hotel? The hotel was where Bar is now. That was all at above the Bar Cafe. All that was hotel. Crew and King it's now. oh
00:08:27
Speaker
with a key dress circle bar and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah So that was hotel. All right. So we stayed there and I wore an apricot, organza dress with a short collar. How old were you? It was stunning. We must have been 10. Yeah. Because Dad was still alive. I remember that. So we traveled from the country and stayed in the hotel. So exotic. And Jocelyn Drake Brockman, my friend, she wore a chocolate brown felt dress. So sophisticated. So this was a being... We had our ballet buns. Yeah.
00:08:57
Speaker
This is like 1963-62. yeah fifty three yeah So that was kind of, you know, memorable and epic. But I also learned the piano and I was terrible, terrible. I was very ill-disciplined. I really wanted to learn. I was so jealous when my brother got to learn the piano and I wasn't allowed to because I wasn't old enough. And then when I did, I was not very good, not very good, but I persevered.
00:09:27
Speaker
But also the other thing that, um when I look back on it, I always thought I was a shy kid. I was this shy, retiring kid that never had gotten involved in anything. And I was always at the back of the crowd. But if there was ever a chance to sing or dance, I was up for it. So I was in the school performances. I was always the leading lady or the leading man. I was due to Stedford's ballet concerts. And so I clearly wasn't a shy child. It was just like, if there was an opportunity I just went, yeah, pick me. yeah So I was the leading lady in the in the primary school concert and the teacher was the leading man. yeah Like, hello. So I think it was, um there was never any question about whether you were any good at anything. It was just like, it was there so you did it. yeahp yeah So anyway, when dad died, when I was 11, we moved to the city and the ballet music continued. I had to make a choice when I was 12.
00:10:25
Speaker
Mum couldn't afford for me to do one, to do both, so I had to choose ballet or music, so music went ye wisely, I think. Good choice, good choice. Mum had nothing, like she had a minimal pension, but she would buy one ticket in the gods to every dance performance at the majestyist His Majesty's. And her friend, Verna, who was an usher, or usher-ets as they were in the in those days, would pick me up at the side entrance to the theatre take me into the gods and when the lights went down she'd tap me on the shoulder and take me and sit me in the lighting box. So I would sit and watch all of the ballet performances, all the Russian touring companies, yeah all of the character performances. Did you see the Bolshoi? Yeah, saw the Bolshoi, saw everything that was on at His Majesty's Theatre from the lighting box. It was like, it was absolutely magic and I was hooked
00:11:24
Speaker
So we had no hope, basically. You had no hope. You had no hope. So, like, you know, but there was that moment, like when I hit high school, I realised that there were people who actually were good at this stuff. You know, that they actually were classically trained singers and musos and dancers. And I just went, well, you know, stiff. I'm still going to do it, even though I might not be considered the best.
00:11:53
Speaker
um And when folk music happened, Bob Dylan, and The Seekers, Peter, Paul and Mary, and the guitar, and my brother and I, Don, became partners in music. yeah So I had a group at school and after school in bands with Don, and we had a lot of fun. And after a while I just gave up the guitar, not good at it, and sang yeah all the time, sort of around campfires, around bottles of port around everybody else playing musical instruments and me just singing. And, you know, I look back on it and I was never the best. I was never really any good. It was just more about having confidence and hooch par. Really, that was what it's more about. I mean, now you have to be good to be accepted. yeah Back then, it was just you just did it if you felt good. So I suppose to round all that up is I wanted to give those experiences that were so pivotal to me.
00:12:53
Speaker
to my kids, to dance, to play, to perform, to read, to feel what life performance is, to be transported, to have your breath taken away, to be thrilled, and to do what you're passionate about. And look what happened. It could happen. So yeah, for context. So when working in the industry, I saw I was an actor at school and then decided. And a good one. Yeah. um And then decided in your first year uni, I did one audition um in uni and went, well, that was hard and annoying. I'm just going to, I'm going to get much further in life if I go backstage. So it became a stage manager and then from stage manager became a producer and publicist because it was, you know, oh I just follow the path of like, I'm good at that and ended in my arts marketing. And that was when I was like 23 and now I'm 44 and still going. And then Toby on the other side, you know, an actor.
00:13:49
Speaker
ah academic, a dramaturg, a text, you know, engaged Shakespearean, everything hits everywhere. Can I ask you a hard question? Yes, yes. So how much of the fact that when you were um auditioning or thinking about being a, you know, um trying out for performance, how much of Toby's reputation played in that role, did you go, like, yeah, no, leave that to him. I don't want to do it because I don't want to be competing with him or be compared to him.
Georgia's Arts Journey and Choices
00:14:22
Speaker
I guess partially, I think, you know, there was when we started doing Camberley Theatre and all that kind of stuff, it was it was following him, his doing what he did. And, you know, he seemed to be having fun and I wanted to do it too. And same with UDS, but that was probably more the social stuff. University of dramatic society and wanted to be part of the social
00:14:42
Speaker
world that he came to have there. and yeah i just think I think it was a you know partially of being the wallflower, sort of, um but knowing that there's better people out there, there's people that are just better at it. and I didn't really want to be the first center of attention or wanting to be that. It was almost like there was no power or strength in it and there was no playing a role on stage amongst a bunch of people, I would have got like a bit roll up the back and still had to do all the things and had no real control.
00:15:15
Speaker
Not control, but like ability to contribute much. So I think it was, yeah, opportunity to take backstage roles and could make it stronger make stronger contributions, I guess, to what those shows were and that's kind of became this the stage manager and could boss everyone around, including Toby.
00:15:36
Speaker
so and they just Yeah, it just felt like you know I always looked forward to like you know what the career could be, what the career path, what does that mean, and what could I be? in Acting just seemed so fruitless, or just like would be a small thing, but that wasn't going to be my career. I wasn't going to do that for a living. That was just for fun.
00:15:56
Speaker
film yeah and phil And I was obsessed with film at the time and I wanted to do that. i not And I didn't never wanted to be a film actor. I was obsessed with film because I wanted to make them, make movies. yeah And I wanted to be a producer from the age of 14. And say things. And say things. Make my voice heard. And there's ah there's also the thing that always strikes me about actors.
00:16:20
Speaker
is there's a real vulnerability there. you yeah You're putting yourself, youre like you're opening yourself up to the world to go you know hit me or, you know, judge me. judge me And it takes yeah a lot to be able to, you know, I don't know how to be good at it as well. And the idea of someone like writing a review about your performance that you might've put so much into just, no, thank you. I'm not interested in that.
00:16:46
Speaker
It's just, too it's a bit too, yeah, that vulnerable, it's exposing and becomes really personal. While if it's the work you do, like producing shows and them getting reviewed, it's not necessarily a personal indictment on me, whether they liked it or not. Yeah. And there's a whole podcast in that and actually talking about what that means and the role of criticism. And the lack of it, but that we currently exist in this yeah state. cliffine And what makes it valid? Yes. I mean, it has a place, absolutely. And I think it's really important because how do you How do you develop or grow? You just create things in your own bubble and for what to what end? You mean you you could create work that is important to you and the people who make it, but unless you're contributing something, then why? And if a good critic should be able to help you adapt and grow and change and
00:17:36
Speaker
you know, you take that on board that can actually help you become a better artist. You've got to be open to that criticism. A lot of people aren't, I think, because a lot of it, it becomes really personal and not really good criticism and not very interesting. Yeah. And they just, as you said, you know, um I always remember you saying, I don't read reviews because they just tell the story. Yeah. Like, it's not critical. No, it just goes like they came in from stage left and then they did a pirouette and then they yes get a pas de deux and they're bad and you go,
00:18:06
Speaker
then anyway but Then you produce plays without a plot and it freaks them out and they don't know how to deal with that. How dare you. Weird contemporary performance. So basically, both Toby and I were had no hope in going to the exposed at a very young age. And yeah, I remember, I think, I know I went to the first show at four. I don't remember that. It was Parrots of Penzance.
00:18:30
Speaker
Or Peter Pan. Peter Pan. the man Peter Pan flew down from the gods onto the stage. I mean, how could you forget that? I forgot. I was four. And then it was Pirates of Penzance. Yeah. The first 1984 with John English came back 10 years later, I believe. And now it's coming back again, not with John English. No, I was going to say. I think he's ready to do Pirates of Penzance. But it was Marina, a very young. prior Marina Pryor. Marina Pryor, yeah. He's fabulous. Yeah.
00:18:59
Speaker
But I remember, I mean, we talked, been talking about it a bit at the moment around the, around musicals of the eighties of Andrew Lloyd Webber and how important his work was to me as a child. Like Cats was everything. And we were talking, I know the fact that I just remember I was eight and being handed down the line, the aisle or the row by strangers so I could pat Victoria, the white chinchilla.
00:19:29
Speaker
cat. Yeah, it was a pivotal moment. I mean, the cats, what is that about? It's about cats. And there's no plot, no nothing. And when they try to make it something more, it's not there anyway. But it was just such an important moment for me. I knew every word of that. Exactly. I was going to say, there was a build up to that because I remember you know, we would sing all of the music around the house, you know, and you both of you were singing all the way through, all the way through that show. And I thought, oh, the people in front are going to say something in a minute. But yeah, and it was magical to be able to, and was that was like school holidays. What are we going to do on the school holidays? We could do
00:20:16
Speaker
camp or some kind of creative activity or spend all that money, which is not cheap, to go and see cats. It's like no brainer. Yeah. Now we'll fill in the rest of the holiday some other way. But this one, one thing and both of you were absolutely enthralled. Same with Phantom. I knew every word of, we had the vinyl of Phantom and I used to play it on repeat. I knew every word.
00:20:43
Speaker
and didn't see that till I was like 15 at the entertainment center. Your dad, I remember the chandelier and that massive space. And I just remember seeing the movie when it came out to the early 2000s, I think 2005 or something, the Phantom of the Opera, and just the opening words. I just realized it was a word for word. And I was just, I know this. Did you cry? Yes, of course. Music just made me cry. It's the, um, the culmination of the,
00:21:10
Speaker
all singing, all dancing. It doesn't matter what it, I remember we saw Legally Blonde, the opening number for Legally Blonde. I was in tears yeah because it was just so, it does something to get you, it's not what it's about, but where it kind of gets you. I love it. So this, I've decided to call ah this podcast Here Goes Nothing for a few reasons. Firstly, it's about the idea of leaping into the abyss with a creative idea. I'm not a creative.
00:21:40
Speaker
And this, to me, seems like a creative pursuit. And I just, for me, is getting through a lot of barriers of actually exploring my creative ideas. So um ah it's a big leap for me. But um I usually you know put my creativity and creative thoughts to the bottom in favor of supporting others as a producer, as a marketing person. That's what I did. I was always very good at taking other people's ideas and making them soar.
00:22:10
Speaker
Not so much for my own. So this is like a, here goes nothing. Big leap. Okay. Because you've always said that. I know. It's a good protection. It's a good self protection mechanism. Yeah. And it's like, don't look at me. I want to be behind the flats. I'm behind the stage.
00:22:26
Speaker
I don't want to be, I don't want any accolades. Don't ah give me any applause. So you've always been like that. And you've always stepped back and let others take the spotlight, just everything and take credit for your success. So people who are successful are there because of what you've done and your creativity. And you create, you demonstrate your creative and in a way that's not about you. Yeah.
00:22:52
Speaker
So creating festivals, devising marketing that elevates and shines a spotlight on companies and artists and others while you keep the low profile. And I love seeing you created embrace that creativity and your talent and finally taking credit for that creativity. Because you just always go,
00:23:13
Speaker
It's not about me, it's about them. It's about elevating artists. But they wouldn't be the artists they are without what you add to their journey. And i I have this philosophy that, and because I was, when I used to run craft classes and teach people how to make things and do things, and every class, like I'd have, I ran hundreds of classes with 10 people in a class. Every class there would be someone, I'm not very creative.
00:23:38
Speaker
Like, and you go, well, everybody's creative in their own way. Everybody. know It's so frustrating. People say it all the time. I'm not an artsy person. I'm not creative. It's like, just shut up. Yeah. I mean, like, you've great cooks. Hello. who's You're a great cook. Great gardeners. No, I'm not. an enough But you learn. There are things you can learn, gardening's one. But you've chosen to use your your talent to lift others to be the best they can be. Now, stuff them. No.
00:24:09
Speaker
Well, no, I think it's, you've come to a point in your life where you accept that other people realize how important it is. And they say that you're inspirational and that you, they couldn't have done what they've done without you. And the fact that you can accept that and then go, okay, this is what I do. This is what I'm good at. I can step forward and be recognized for it. And so now you're doing a podcast. So I mean, that's pretty bloody creative. Yeah. Give it a go. How good is that? Yeah. I mean, see how we go.
00:24:40
Speaker
So the other reason I wanted to do use this title as well is because of a book. So it's a book I recently finished and I can't stop thinking about it. um It's about Australian author, Steve Toltz, who is a book of prize nominatmine ah nominated, shortlisted author for his book, A Fraction of the Whole, which is just great and everyone should read it. um So the his book, Here Goes Nothing, is complete chaos.
00:25:08
Speaker
it is count is And I love it. I just love the chaos. um it is I read it at a time where I was trying to make sense of many things in my life and it just quietened the chaos in my brain because of the chaos that it presented me. ah um it really it's So it's a book about the afterlife, about a man who makes an untimely, an atheist who makes an untimely death, wakes up and goes, well, I was wrong.
00:25:39
Speaker
ah um And then he's... Is that what he says? More or less. It's more like, ah well, I think it was, ah this is not what I expected. Yes. yeah Yeah. And so it's about him in his and the afterlife and also the people he's left behind and how they kind of cope with that in this insane, chaotic, apocalyptic way. So now, Namam, I gave you this book a while ago and you didn't pick it up as soon as I told you to start reading it. Well, I was reading something else. I know. Hello.
00:26:10
Speaker
So you're now reading it. How's it going?
00:26:15
Speaker
My God, what is this book? It is just so weird. And it's hard to comment because I'm only halfway through. So I can't really talk much about the... But I'm at the point where you go, okay, I get that this is chaotic. I get that it's halfway through and I'm not really supposed to have any idea. I'm going, is it this? Is it that? Is it the other thing?
00:26:39
Speaker
Where is this going? And how is it going to, I mean, you always think when you read a book, there's going to be some resolution or some provocation at the end. So what's that going to be? Is it like he's really, is he dead? um Is he in a coma? um Is there a God? Is, you know, hello? What is it? Is it all just a ah fiction? Well, hello, it's obviously a fiction, yeah but what is it?
00:27:07
Speaker
and And then the other thing that's striking me as I'm reading it, that's kind of this background narrative as I'm reading this thing, is this what the inside of G's brain looks like? Is it this kind of bad tumble of pre-sleep, chaotic thoughts? You know, anyway,
00:27:29
Speaker
It's funny and it's clever and there's some great lines. I wish I could remember the mickey thing. I'm going to remember that line, but I don't. Yeah. But I'll let you know when I've finished. So on I just wanted to take back why that book in the context of this podcast and this kind of idea is that I think the idea that a book a piece of art can really change the way you think in a way you approach life.
Art's Impact and Access
00:27:54
Speaker
He was listening to an interview with Steve Tolts about the book and kind of his motivation for writing it was very practical, very much. I wanted to write a book that followed these people around in their lives, or I wanted to write a book about, you know, I wrote a list of different types of ways the world could end and, you know, wanted to kind of explore that. So it was all very practical, him as a writer and his practice and how he kind of compiles a story.
00:28:20
Speaker
Yet for me reading it, reading it at a time where you're going through some health health issues, really having this thing of like, meaning not meaning of life, but like, you know, making the most of the life that I have and what I'm gonna do, um really that book kind of just really clarified some things in my head or just quietened some things or how a piece of art, depending on what type part of your life you're in yeah and where you're at can have a profound profound effect.
00:28:48
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not the meaning of the artist and the creator that does that, but it's sort of how you approach that and the important role that an audience plays in the creation of work. There's a lot of artists work so solo and on their own, and it's just their practice for their themselves. But without the interplay of audience, the meaning of that work yeah changes. Absolutely. and And I kind of think if you read this two years ago,
00:29:15
Speaker
would you just think, oh, this is crazy stuff. I just kind of, that's funny. Yeah, exactly. But you know, I've often talked about a similar experience with um reading Annie Prue, who is a monumental writer. And the first thing I read of hers was shipping news. That was like 35 years ago. And not in a doctor similar situation, health issues. And I remember reading it cover to cover and just the fulsome of um and the genius of the way she put words together, it sort of took you out of the world that you're in, into another world that um not necessarily had but like, this is the meaning of life, or I'm going to change the way I think. um But it just, reading it from the beginning to the end in a sit in a time when I didn't have other distractions, I suppose,
00:30:13
Speaker
um Now I've read just everything of Annie Prose and everything she reads I just love. Except I can't read the short stories. I can't do short stories. There's something about my brain that doesn't do short stories, but I'm trying very hard to do that. And yet and interestingly, when we met her, when she was doing a tour, she, as a personality... She wasn't very nice. No, she was kind of like... I was like, oh. Can I say the word? A beach? bought Boring? No, boring.
00:30:40
Speaker
boring. She just didn't like, but she actually reflected some of the boring characters she had. But it was really interesting. And, but I suppose talking about the Steve Tolks book and talking about Annie Prew and talking about any other thing that you read or you see, that there's that point in time, like, you know, to just today or yesterday was I put on a random CD I pull off the shelf and stick into my machine. It's still a CD player. its I know, I know. and That's why I love that because it's random. And I put it on and it was the Barbra Streisand live concert that Meredith and I went to see in into the year 2000. And it was like word for word for the concert we saw. So the openings, opening strands of the music, tears. Yeah. And it just took me back there and it took me back to all how
00:31:34
Speaker
how much her music meant to us when we were at school. um But the the whole point of all this, I think, is the fact that, A, you have access to that music, hey B, you you are a reader, so you have a choice of things you know to read and know what impacts on you and what doesn't. so um And then taking it back further,
00:32:03
Speaker
to understand, and it took me a long time to actually understand that there are a lot of people that don't have this, that don't have books from the time that they can hold a book in their hand. They don't have music surrounding them in their life. They don't have an opportunity to see live performance or, you know, with things like Spotify and, and you know, television and YouTubes and stuff like that. There's a lot more access now, but it's that live performance and seeing those live things that actually gets them understanding the difference and in kind of understanding that it can have that profound effect. And I think dismissing it sometimes around it being a late or can really do a disservice and you don't get
00:32:47
Speaker
the joy sometimes or because or like, you know, won't go and see a ballet or or something because it's not for you. yeah But the way it's set up as well, they don't create an environment that is welcoming and accessible. You know, those those theaters are intimidating. And then why would you, from a completely different culture that doesn't understand, has never really entered the space like the State Theater Center, which is a monolith, gray concrete box. Why would you think you're welcome there? And so it's about creating opportunities and taking works and to those communities and to those people and actually understanding because it can have a profound effect. Art can do that. um Not as big a arts, you know, arts exists everywhere and it's sort of, it just needs to be more yeah egalitarian and yeah there's just so much opportunity and I think it can do so much. It's like that threshold. It's like in an art gallery and talking to people to say they feel intimidated stepping over that line, that
00:33:45
Speaker
that threshold from the outside world into an art gallery because they don't understand it and they feel threatened and they feel stupid. Yeah. So they and like they can't do that. And you think, why do we have that? Why is that threshold there? Yeah. And I saw a talk recently from the director of the Young V&A in the UK in London. So again it's a museum part of the V&A, Victoria and Albert Museum.
00:34:11
Speaker
um that used to be the childhood museum and it was a museum about childhood so it was kind of for adults to kind of reflect on items from childhood and they six years ago they completely transformed it and changed what that is to be a museum for children and to do that they designed co-designed it with children so children would have made those decisions to to how it should be displayed you know things at height at child height enough as one one of the things she said is um you know the designer originally said, just although I think in the original space, stripped out all the seating because they just wanted this big open space. um Except we, she said, we experience things with our bodies and so physically. So you need something but to for people to sit and spend time. And it's just really a different approach of understanding the audience's role in that exhibition and in that experience.
00:35:06
Speaker
um And she said that like you know young children, what they want to see is no technology, none of that. They want to play and they want to engage with things and they want to be tactile things and colourful things. And it was just motivat what motivated this this space to exist. And one last year was been open since late 2023.
00:35:25
Speaker
And in it ah these earlier this year, it won the Museum of the Year in the UK. So it's like, you know, considered the best. Yeah, fantastic. The amazing space, but kind of putting centering the child in that. And, you know, as you say, if you give children access to it at a very young age, it can have a profound impact. And it doesn't have to be, I mean, so much money goes into these things and it's not necessarily about money. um I remember, like,
00:35:55
Speaker
And when when Toby's kids, when we met in London years ago and the kids were still four and six, I don't know how old they were, but we went to the Tate o and they had got a little suitcase, tiny little suitcase for each of the kids to go through the Tate. So there weren't spaces, and there was a space just for kids, but this little suitcase they could take through the gallery and they opened up if they found an artwork or piece of art that they identified with light, spoke to them, whatever, they could sit on the floor, open up this little box and recreate it or respond to that artwork with cotton reels and bits of fabric and, you know, wire, whatever. It was just a mismatch of throwaway things in this box. And they would then respond to that artwork. And the kids were just,
00:36:54
Speaker
kind of engaged in that. Nobody said, I want you to recreate that. Just like, here's stuff, here's that. Because it's inherent in how kids behave, that creation, being creative um and creating things. Absolutely. And we we do a great job of destroying that. Yeah. Anyway. So for this podcast series, outside discussing the impact of the arts on individuals,
00:37:23
Speaker
I really want to pose a couple of provocations to unpick opinions on a specific topics. Now we're going to speak to you down the track and about much more in about your wheelhouse, shall we say, um and discuss around philanthropy because you work in philanthropy. I do. you do um And understand people's, why people give money and why especially bequests is something I think a lot of people struggle with understanding why you can't ask someone to give them money before they die. It's like mentioning they're going to die. Oh my goodness. heaven a bit So really want to kind of have a chat about that and we'll do that a bit further down the track. So we're going to explore different things. So ones I've kind of
00:38:06
Speaker
have kind of settled on and have people were in mind for. So things like, you know, about festivals, arts festivals, and what they mean for community. um The importance of a good text and a great play. The explanation of why anyone would like sci-fi novels. And Jane will help. They do. help they Yeah, Jane. you yeah She'll win like us. I trust you. How to understand jazz? Because it's a music form that is complex. I'd like to know that.
00:38:35
Speaker
okay and the important role that artists play in society. um And there's so many more questions around accessibility of the arts and the arts, the role of the arts in chronic illness. There's so many different opportunities and ways and things I want to talk about. So thinking about that, what kind of provocations would you like to put, would you think I should put forward in this? Okay, well, i I've got a long list yeah that came up from a very short moment of thought. So there's bound to be more. come up The first one that came up, and that came from like talking about my first exposure and what that was, is like, when did life become art? So we, we you know, as I say, life, music, um all the things that we surround ourselves, film, reading, all that kind of stuff, turned into art and culture. And
00:39:28
Speaker
and in in a way became exclusive in a way that it was not meant to. But it's kind of been hijacked, if I can say. but Yeah. And because you look at other cultures like First Nations culture, dance is just part of absolutely who
Cultural Perspectives in Art and Dance
00:39:43
Speaker
they are. Like the idea if you could take contemporary dance or ballet to these remote indigenous cultures, it's like, well, dance is inherently what they do, especially like up at Elko Islands and the Nyung people.
00:39:55
Speaker
and how they their ceremonies, it's all music and dance. And it's all about storytelling. Yeah. And that's how they share their culture and their history is through oral history and rather than in sharing culture rather than writing it in books. Yeah. And you look at the cultures that make up Australian society. So much of their cult of culture is based in dance. Yeah. And if I look at, ah you know, from an Anglo-Saxon perspective, because that's my background,
00:40:23
Speaker
um like we would go to one of my memories that I didn't raise was going to you know, um town hall dances, like dances in the, and we do square dancing and boron dancing and I remember one of my best times I had in my life was doing boron dancing with, you know, the local farmers and they'd twirl me around the dance floor with my feet off the ground and it was just so much fun. But that was almost every weekend there'd be dancers and stuff like that, so always dancing. So yeah, so when did
00:40:58
Speaker
when did life become art? um And sort of going back to what we were just talking about then. So so what what is Australian culture, you know, given the multicultural, multiracial um melting pot that we have and the, you know, in a relatively short time, that to the impact of, you know, um the English, the Irish um or everyone from the UK, yeah the Italians, the the Eastern Europeans that post the... i mean the the More recently, like the African in communities. African, that vietnamese i mean and the I mean, just in my lifetime, I've seen these huge cultural shifts and changes, not just in the food we eat, and the fusion of of but the fusion of cultures in like
00:41:49
Speaker
What does that, um what does that mean to who we are as Australian? What can you identify as Australian? Do we need to do that? Yeah. Is that a thing? And it's sort of, it's not about, I think there was such an idea about assimilation before and homogenisation of making it all the same, but I think it's about celebration. It's sort of not just using what's a friend of words, but rather than appropriate, appropriations, appreciation for the culture and to kind of celebrate those parts of the cultures that are unique.
00:42:18
Speaker
and allow and giving them space to do that rather than trying to quash it. Yeah, exactly. Or deny it. Deny it, yeah. The other one which goes back to another thing we talked we touched on briefly is who gets to be a critic. Yeah. So what qualifies someone to have a critical view or to have an opinion that people listen to? So you can you can write a review. everyone can Anyone can write a review. Yeah. But what makes it valid? to you Is it your experience? Is it just your own personal opinion? is Is it one that that needs to be listened to, or is it just somebody whinging, whining, and they failed they're failed themselves, so they're going to be rude about everybody else? yeah you know Who knows? The other one is, does education kill creativity? creativity Associated with that is, should we be putting more focus on the arts before STEM? yeah Because creativity, um creative thinking,
00:43:18
Speaker
um problem-solving creates better engineers. so Better engineers. Better engineers, absolutely. If you bring a problem-solving idea or mindset to STEM subjects. It's interesting. weve I've been doing a lot of research at the moment around um arts in schools and as it's part of the curriculum, it's really important that the arts is part of the curriculum and that's really great.
00:43:47
Speaker
but Queensland is seen as like the gold standard of arts education yeah and they have a specialist program so they ensure that they're specialist teachers in all of those public schools rather than the generalist teachers having to do yeah all of the work and not really being an expert so they really train the specialization of music teachers especially.
00:44:05
Speaker
yet the bringing in of the national curriculum, they it's almost like dumbing, not dumbing down, but diluting diluting that specialization that they do so well there. So that, yeah, it's complicated it's so complicated. And yeah. And every state goes, but mine's better than yours. And while there's a national curriculum, so you have Australia-wide, but then the approach for it is state-based. So then it changes depending on the state and depending of the and all the other concerns that my state might have. And their priorities and their systems, you know literacy and numeracy, absolutely, top of the wasa. But you know if you have a vibrant and a good um grounding for ah in in music and
00:44:55
Speaker
sound and drawing and things like that, it opens up your mind to be able to do all those other things. So the other one is why do we read what we read? yeah Because we self-select and we choose what we what um data we actually put into our brain and what influences us. So like I refused to read nonfiction, which I know is a terrible thing because there's lots of very interesting books out there.
00:45:19
Speaker
but too interesting though far too interesting. Like it just, I start reading it and it just, my brain goes, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. I have to throw it in the corner. And if somebody writes a novel yeah and it turns out to be a biography or a, you know, this is a story in my life. I can't read it. I just have to throw it away. It needs to be fiction. I don't know. I find, I find at the moment it depends on where I am. I really, where I'm at, like I, um,
00:45:48
Speaker
Last year I was reading a book I was going through. I was in hospital for a bit and I was reading a book that was about just a terrible man and an old man who was grumpy and just was annoyed with women these days and blah, blah, blah. And I just, I just made me so angry that I just like, and then I just made that realized I don't need to read this. I don't need to put myself through this. Yeah. And then I was reading recently, um, Craig Silley's Honeyboy.
00:46:17
Speaker
You know, a great book really mean, but like just conversation. I'm just not really interested in just back and forth every day. Naturalism, yeah like things that are just like a, could watch it in a TV show or you could do. And so I think what I love about Steve Tolks is the magic realism and the kind of like just craziness because it i stories that kind of started a point and that opens up so much more backstory and, and, and things. And you can kind of almost feel your mind opening up.
00:46:47
Speaker
rather than it being, and then we did this, and then we did that, and then this conversation happened, and then the next day we did that. Blue boring. That's maybe another another another one is like who gets to write and who gets to publish and put stuff out there, but that's another one. And decide what needs publishing. yeah um The other one is what about the audience? What about them? What's their role and their artist's responsibility to their audience? exactly Do they have one? If great art didn't have an audience, was it ever great? Exactly. If a tree falls in a forest, no one's there to hear it.
Audience's Role and Emotional Resonance
00:47:22
Speaker
Absolutely. I'm um as an arts marketer for the past 20 years and been fighting and selling contemporary dance and performance and contemporary things.
00:47:35
Speaker
an argument with contemporary visual artists about how to speak to their audience. you know And it's like, if they don't understand it, no one's going to come and no one will care. And it's like, well, that's the only way to talk about it. And I'm like, well, no one cares. You don't have an audience for your art if you're unable to talk about it and explain it. If you refuse to do interviews, you refuse to do anything about it, then but then why does it exist?
00:47:59
Speaker
You know, if you don't have an audience to engage and consume it, not consume, actually, engage with it why does it, why does it exist? Well, it could just exist because they have something to say and they want to say it. And and so is it relevant whether or not there's anyone there to hear it? But it's great for their mental health and their own personal wellbeing. yeah Should that get lots of government funding?
00:48:24
Speaker
Well, that's another question. and like Who's going to fund it? If you're going to spend your time painting paintings in your shed, because it's good for you and you like doing it, right? That's amazing. It doesn't mean you need funding for it. And and it's kind of, I have this thing we said before that I don't read reviews. I don't read about anything before I read a book or go to a play or watch a ballet or a contemporary dance thing.
00:48:51
Speaker
or or Or even remember that we're going to go to those things. Yeah, well, that's the other thing. You know, it's OK if you send me a diary invite. I remember that sometimes. You know, a visual arts thing. I have the kind of brain where I step over the threshold o and I want to be told the story. I sit back and let it wash over me. And and what does it say to me? And if I come out at the end of it and go. It didn't say anything to me.
00:49:21
Speaker
That's fine. It's not for me. Or I go, wow, this meant this to me. That doesn't matter what the art to me. It doesn't matter what the artist is trying to say. It's what it communicates to me. If I'm interested enough, I will then go and read more about the artist or read more about what to see whether or not um you know, we have a shared experience or when my experience is unique, which usually is because it's based on what's happened in my life and the where I've come to before then. But yeah, I don't want to hear about what other people think I want to. And I think I find it get frustrated sometimes with other people who kind of like, I need a story. I need to know if there's a narrative, a beginning, middle and end. It's like not everything has to have that, especially like contemporary dance, working in that field.
00:50:05
Speaker
it's like It's about feelings and it's about how that makes you feel and what that brings up in you. If you feel it makes you emotional, it brings up these things amazing. If it makes you angry, if it gives any emotion whatsoever, great success. Whether it pisses you off so much, that's just as successful whether you loved it. But if it makes you feel absolutely nothing, then that's where the problem lies. If it give it should make get you in a different way, it shouldn't be,
00:50:33
Speaker
just apathy. And I find a lot of stories that are just so narrative driven and only about this natural realism can be a little bit like, so what? Like people have those conversations. It's nothing unique or special about it. It just is really boring. And you and on one of the things is I want to love the conversation, the after conversation. So if people come out of an exhibition or a performance or something and they start talking about the weather, you go,
00:51:02
Speaker
well, what was the performance about? But I love it when they come out and go, oh, wasn't that, didn't you love that? Oh, what did you think? What did this mean? um And you go, okay, there's been, it's achieved part of its purpose, whether or not it's what the artist intended, but there's that. um And I love having those conversations and I've had numerous of them where people come out of a, we keep coming back to contemporary dance, because that tends to be one of those things that really sets people off.
00:51:32
Speaker
who were really angry and going, why is that art? Why is there money spent on that? Why are you putting that in that your performance space? And it just makes me laugh. I go, that's great. It's great that people have an opportunity to express themselves in that way. It's great that you makes you angry and you question the reason behind it. Like, let's have these conversations. Like, what was it about you didn't like?
00:51:57
Speaker
um and It just makes that makes that work. Take it to another level. It takes it off that performance space or out of that off that stage and into another realm where it then takes on a life of its own.
00:52:12
Speaker
It's like I saw recently a show, Black Swan show called The Children, um directed by Mel Cantwell, forgotten the playwright's name, um but it was about, ah yeah, it was kind of set in this place about, you know, the and ra radioactive plant, what do you call it? Power plant, nuclear power plant melts down and so it really impacted the community around it and the people kind of living in there who obviously have been impacted by radiation poisoning.
00:52:40
Speaker
and the The conceit at one point is sort of like they're they're older people who used to work in the power plant and they make the decision to go and work in the power plant because they're older. you know They've probably only got 10, 20 years left. Take out the the young people, the 30-year-olds who have had have a chance at at a full life, to have haven't had children yet, all those things.
00:53:02
Speaker
take them away from the risk. And so then a lot of people came out of that play going, oh, my God, it's so depressing. Oh, my God. like How can you think like that? Oh, death. oh And I came out of it. Having gone through all these kind of thinking about, like, what is many life stuff and and facing those kind of real um existential questions and kind of thinking this is no you're not it is so full of hope and it is so full of positive energy in the sense that these people have an opportunity to add real value to the world and really save other people they know that one of the characters has cancer already so she knows she's gonna die so why not use her time in a productive
00:53:44
Speaker
valuable way rather than sitting back and lamenting that she's sick. There's a real positive outlook about that and a real, um yeah, that you don't really see unless you understand that you're gone, if you've gone through that kind of yeah thing yourself personally. so it's also I find when you go and see something like that that makes you think, you don't leave it at the theater door. You don't leave it in the foyer. You go home and you turn it over in your brain.
00:54:14
Speaker
And you look at it and go, well, why write a play like that if it's just depressing? What are the? And then the next day or a week later, you're talking to somebody and they go, did you see that play? Let's talk about it. Yeah. And so they you mull it over and different things come at it. And you start seeing things at different levels rather than that that at immediate exchange from the from the the play to the audience.
00:54:45
Speaker
It's how it then manifests itself and festers and ferments yeah in your brain to go, oh, maybe, oh, maybe there is something in that. yeah Which then, when you talk to somebody who's in a life-threatening situation, you may see it from a different perspective. so And wonder why they're so positive all the time. It's like, how can you be, if I was you, I'd be like this, this, this. And then kind of, it's like, yeah,
00:55:14
Speaker
You wouldn't though, no. You might go off and walk work in a nuclear power plant. You might save the lives of 25-year-olds. Yeah. Who can then have kids and carry on humanity. And and experience all the joys. of yeah yeah All of that kind of stuff. Hey, I think this is a bigger conversation. That's a bigger conversation. she did Oh, that was one more. Can I just wonder yeah one more? And then then i can I'll leave you alone and think of the other ones after.
00:55:40
Speaker
One of my passions that is on my long list of things I'm going to do one day, if I ever did a PhD, and I'm sure there's been lots of PhDs on this, so this may require some academic input, and I'm sure you find somebody who's got it, is art as propaganda. o So, you know, post art, sculpture, music, that you see it particularly in soviet the Soviet times and and in you you know Hitler and the incredible architecture and art that was produced during Nazi Germany. But also the this not silent process but the underlying protest of those artists within that context.
Art as Protest and Personal Experiences
00:56:18
Speaker
Exactly the protest of it and how it impacts on people and and the the population and how it's it's high art and but it's aimed at. Yeah but it kind of like you know you look at Shostakovich's and we both know you know
00:56:34
Speaker
the the there was a real protest in his work. And he admitted to that, like he was made to write music for the Stalin that guys, whatever. the pack i um But he did it under you know, protest and he kind of, so he la he laced his work with that protest. And like Lenny Larifian-Style, who was the um filmmaker during Hitler's time, you know, I think there's a lot of stuff around about how she wasn't complicit in these things. And it's like, how do how did artists respond in an environment
00:57:08
Speaker
that it's either that or death. yeah Like you either do what, like be part of it or you're just gonna, or death. Yeah. Well, the I mean, with Shostakovich, his peers left the country or they died for their art, but he chose to stay and was vilified for it because he was seen as a traitor and ah you know and a collaborator.
00:57:32
Speaker
um And he lived in fear of being of his, that of being discovered by the government that he would then be, and he apparently, in my very short amount of research into this, would sit by his door at night with his bag packed. So when they came to take him away, when they discovered what he was doing with his music, which um when they discovered him that they would come and take him away in the middle of the night. Yeah. He was ready.
00:58:07
Speaker
he was ready for them and they wouldn't wake his family. so you know that and But you and you see some of the the Art Deco posters of the time and the amazing sculptures that were built. um And like ah one of my favorite books of all time was an amazing book. It was in German, so but it was also the art of the Third Reich. And you know the sculptures and the artwork and the architecture was so beautiful But looking at it and seeing the art of it just has this rising guilt, you know, wise, you know. And because it then that kind of kind of linked with the idea of separation of the art and the artist. Yeah.
00:58:49
Speaker
and um How can, does an artwork exist on its own without the influence, political influences, propaganda influences, or extremely bad behavior by some artists, you know, Picasso, well-known misogynist, having a affairs with very young women and behaving terribly. and But his art is just so great, but it's sort of, yeah, it's that separation. And then it's sort of like, you think now, not that we're going to talk about politics, but um in 50 years' time,
00:59:20
Speaker
What is the art of now that will reflect and respond to the insanity of the past 10 years? Well, eight years, how long is trumping around? But, yeah um you know, what that what art will be created? What art is yeah what art has been created and what we'll say. Yeah. Let's see the next four years. Yeah. But we're not talking about that. No, no, this is not about politics. No, no. and I just I can throw in now that my favorite artwork and of all time is Guernica.
00:59:50
Speaker
I yeah ah went and saw it at the Sophia in um Madrid. Madrid, what a city. yeah amazing So good. It was pretty pretty great. Yeah. And the whole, all the galleries surrounded and just sort of standing there and breathing in. And it's just talking about bringing emotion. I knew, I mean, I planned for years to go and see this artwork. And one of the, going to Spain, the top of the list was to see Guernica.
01:00:17
Speaker
So I planned my whole trip around seeing Guernica on my own. I didn't want to see it with anyone else. yeah I wanted to take in that space on my own. I was a bit annoyed when there were other people in the gallery. I know, hello. And then those sort of guards standing next to them won't let you take photos or stand near them. And so I just had to kind of close my peripheral vision to all the other humans there and just, you know, feel that rising emotion and the passion of that. It's like I feel like I've had that with being in a room full of Roscos. Oh, don't get me started. And like being surrounded by... So I remember the first festival, I worked on Perfestival in 2004, a festival, and there was an exhibition that Linda Hume put together and one of them, there was room full of Roscos and having this experience of being surrounded by
01:01:08
Speaker
what where That was at the Art Gallery of WA. Yes, 2004. It's 20 years ago, so you might have forgotten about it. I wouldn't have forgotten if I'd seen it. there was And having that kind of like oh transcendental moment and the fact that these works were created in such a commercial way and what Roscoe was doing, it wasn't some kind of altruistic, I'm poor, sitting on in you know being things and creating something to transcend the world. He made them to sit in a for hotels and for a commercial enterprise to make money to have a living. But now what they can actually do is just ... He took them out in that restaurant. Yes, because he didn't want to be around trash. Yeah, because all these people were paying huge amounts of money to eat food and
01:01:55
Speaker
in this restaurant surrounded by his artwork and he was so outraged. He took them all out. Overpriced. Yeah, overpriced food.
Future Topics and Episode Preview
01:02:02
Speaker
So anyway, so this is what I want this podcast to be. A wide ranging conversation, discussion that takes us on tangents, discoves, like, you know, takes to the heart of what the arts means and where it kind of sits. I find myself in conversations a lot being able to kind of bring up, you know, thinking I'm not necessarily well read and sometimes that's not true.
01:02:25
Speaker
Not an expert in. No, we know we're not, we're like a, we're not, don't have, as I said, no PhDs in these things and not deep experts in any of it, but we just know a lot about a lot of things. We're an audience. We're an experienced audience. We've been to a lot of things. How do we go through it? So yeah. how So I could talk to you and I often do talk to you about these things all day. So thanks mum. Thank you. And I look forward to working you back to discuss in more detail the arts and philanthropy and bequests and giving money when you die. So it's been fun. Thank you for joining me on this first episode for such a wide ranging conversation. And thanks again to my guest, Jo Malone, which is always up for a chat. And as we said, we aren't experts, we just know a little about a lot. For all references in this episode, check the show notes and also my substack, heregoesnothingpod.substack.com.
01:03:24
Speaker
Next time, chat with someone who knows a lot about some very specific things. My brother, Dr. Tobin Malone, PhD. We discuss theatre, text and adaptation and the joy of experiencing Cats the Musical for the first time. Till then. This podcast was made on Wojak Noongar Buja, a place I'm very privileged to call my home.
01:03:45
Speaker
And I acknowledge and honour all Noongar people that have been making art on this land for tens of thousands of years and will continue to do so for generations to come. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.
01:03:57
Speaker
original music by lynon blue this is a gm productions