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Episode 3: Talking Festivals with Vernon Guest
72 Plays1 month ago
All across Australia, in small regional towns, communities come together turning their quiet streets into places of celebration for a Festival. Whether it is celebrating food and multiculturalism, agricultural fairs that celebrate industry and history, or contemporary arts festivals in small remote towns.
These community driven cultural and arts festivals create connection, offtering hope and pride in their community… and an important part of the Australian cultural landscape.
In the smallest corner of the smallest state in Australia is the headquarters of one of the country’s leading international arts festivals, Ten Days on the Island. This bi-annual festival connects Tasmania with all corners of the world and celebrates the beauty and challenges of the Island through the voices of artists.
This week’s guest is the CEO of Ten Days, Vernon Guest, calling in from his office overlooking the Bass Strait in Burnie on the North West coast.
Vern and I started our professional arts careers at the same time at the age of 23 at Perth Festival. Since then, Vern has worked all over the country and presented some of the most significant events in Australia. Vern now calls the North West home and understands the responsibility of his role to support and elevate artists in Australia.
Join Vern and I for the next hour as we take a wide ranging conversation on the role of Festivals, artists and creative thinking. We also touch on AI, technology and the role of government.
It’s worth noting that this conversation was recorded late last year, before the controversies surrounding creative australia and the upcoming federal election.
Recommended
Transcript
Regional Festivals in Australia
00:00:05
Speaker
All across Australia, in small regional towns, communities come together, turning their quiet streets into places of celebration for a festival. Whether it's celebrating food and multiculturalism, agricultural fairs that celebrate industry and history, or contemporary arts festivals in small remote towns, these community-driven cultural and arts festivals create connection, offering hope and pride in their community, and an important part of the Australian cultural landscape.
Introduction to Arts Impact Podcast
00:00:35
Speaker
Welcome to Here Goes Nothing, a podcast about the arts and how it impacts our lives. I'm your host, Georgia Malone. In the smallest corner of the smallest state in Australia is the headquarters of one of the country's leading international arts festivals, 10 Days on the Island.
00:00:53
Speaker
This biannual festival connects Tasmania with all corners of the world and celebrates the beauty and challenges of the island through the voices of artists. This week's guest is the CEO of 10 Days, Vernon Guest, calling from his office overlooking the Bass Strait in Burnie on the northwest coast.
Vernon's Career Journey
00:01:11
Speaker
Vernon and I started our professional careers at the same time, at the age of 23, at Perth Festival. Since then, Vernon has worked all over the country and presented some of the most significant events in Australia.
00:01:22
Speaker
Vernon now calls the Northwest home and understands the responsibility of his role to support and elevate artists in Australia. Join Vern and i for the next hour as we take a wide-ranging conversation on the role of festivals, artists and creative thinking.
00:01:36
Speaker
We also touch on AI, technology and the role of government. And it's worth noting that this conversation was recorded late last year before the controversy surrounding Creative Australia and the upcoming federal election.
00:01:48
Speaker
Enjoy.
Georgia & Vernon's Professional Relationship
00:01:52
Speaker
Today's guest recently wrote a post titled, I'm Serious About This, about the critical role that artists and creative leaders play in society. Vernon Guest is currently the CEO of 10 Days on the Island, a biennial international arts festival in Tasmania. Welcome, Vernon.
00:02:07
Speaker
Hi, Georgia. Thanks for inviting me to chat. So Vernon and I have known each other for very long time, which I think worked out the other day. It was over just over 20 years, 21 years, fact. Yes.
00:02:19
Speaker
um we've worked over throughout that time we've worked over work together in many different classes different organizations um so then can you give us a little bit of background and what led you to the role that you're in today uh well spent most of my career working in arts festivals in one way or another um really started out uh kind of volunteering and interning in the festivals so arts festival space back when I was so going through university at WAPA and kind of at the end of graduating from there did a couple of internships in Perth and Adelaide festivals which which led to um in fact many of the the jobs I've had right through my career but worked in kind of production through programming initially there
00:03:07
Speaker
ah you and i spent a period of time working together at the Perth Festival and I know ah then later at Pika as well when I was program manager there.
Life in Tasmania and Festival Leadership
00:03:16
Speaker
and um ah And that really kind of led through to some time at the Sydney Festival as producer of major outdoor events for them for kind seven or eight years. And and then the role came available in Tasmania, so I moved down to the island about six years ago and then three years ago took on the role of of ceo CEO. Three years.
00:03:44
Speaker
It's a long time ago. I know, i know. Yeah, yeah. it's um Yeah, it'll be january January coming up will be ah seven years on the island. So I know it's time has gone fast.
00:04:00
Speaker
And so, Vern, you grew up in regional WA on a farm, I believe. yes which is a long way from the festival world. yes What is it that drew you to the arts in the first place?
00:04:12
Speaker
ah i I always had an interest in ah well, it really kind of started in kind of an interest in music as a kid in primary school in a little country town, Ravenshorpe. And an amazing ah music teacher there who'd come in kind of a day a week um and kind of teach teach a handful of us kids that had an interest in music, she Mrs Hill.
00:04:41
Speaker
And she she really kind of um opened a whole world to me in terms of musical instruments and kind of performing and And that that sparked something for me, not that I ever wanted to necessarily be a performer, but it certainly kind of gave me access that kind of led through to to high school and so on where I was really enjoying every kind of moment of my spare time to be involved with bands and kind of producing concerts and gigs and so on as a teenager.
00:05:16
Speaker
um that ah That was kind of... my social space as well as kind of what I enjoy doing. So, yeah it it really all stemmed from, you know, one amazing teacher kind of opening up that world to me. You know, I certainly, you said, grew up on a farm with, you know, farming parents. so the arts were not a big part of our kind of day to day life is as little kids.
00:05:43
Speaker
And it's it's it's amazing how one teacher can, you know, really have such an impact on people. Some kids in those regional communities, yeah. Yeah, and absolutely, you know, I grew up with parents that were incredibly supportive of, um you know kind of ah whatever I wanted to
Vernon's Arts Inspiration
00:06:01
Speaker
achieve. And so whatever whatever the the the thing that was interesting me at that time as a kid was something that they would be very supportive of. And and so I think, you know, having that environment also ah made a big difference, um even if it
00:06:16
Speaker
did terrify them for a little while when it was like, oh, you're going to work in the arts. Great, great. You know, maybe did you want a backup career just in case? So what was your most like defining moment as a young person that kind of did is there any kind of work or show that you saw that just went, just really had changed and really impacted you?
00:06:35
Speaker
Yeah. I think there's a there's an number of them and ah and I think largely the reason there's a number of them is because, um you know, each of them ah each of those kind of memorable moments happen, I think, as as as you, you know, grow older, you the kind of what's on your mind at a moment in time, what's kind of consuming you, what's concerning you, what's around you changes, of course. And and so kind of the what kind of cuts through at that moment in time, you know, may not necessarily have the same residence 10 years later. So, you know, I think you rather than necessarily pointing back to a ah single moment or a single work in time, I would say that there's kind of been a,
00:07:23
Speaker
a series of works and and and moments over the years. um i think early on um Certainly kind of the, ah you know, seeing my first opera, which was, you know, a marriage of Figaro kind of piece. And, you know, that, ah as opera can do, it is just so kind of the scale of it is so overwhelming. It was perhaps for me less about
00:07:54
Speaker
the art form and more about the production that I was quite taken by. And I had never seen anything like it in terms of kind of, a you know, the scale and ambition of the stage production.
00:08:07
Speaker
um Whereabouts did you see that? Where was that? ah that That was a production at the university working with with the con there at WAPA. So, again, looking back on it compared to the scale of operas i have now seen throughout my life, you know, it it was a, you know university conservatorium production. It was, you know, nothing of, of you know, kind of,
00:08:32
Speaker
scale of significance in in the realm of opera, but I had never seen anything like that before. So that was that was remarkable. That totally transformed kind of my my sense of what what a stage production could be and what what this kind of like what live performance could be. i mean, you know, as a kid, I don't, you know, until a teenager, I don't have any recollection of going to the theatre or opera or, you know, that was just not something we had access to.
00:09:07
Speaker
So, i you know, I didn't grow up with that. So, ah you know, here's me as a kind of, you a mid-late teen kind of moved from the country to the big city to go to university and and thrown completely into this world of like kind of seeing, know, theatre and dance and opera and that for the first time. I mean, you know, my recollection of seeing the Western Australian Symphony Orchestra for the first time was it was just absolutely overwhelming, you know. It was quite a remarkable thing to kind of oh, you know, this is this there is something incredibly special about live performance and I and i think that's why, know,
00:09:46
Speaker
I have continued to work in the festival space because you know festivals in this country largely focus on on live performance and that and that really interesting kind of interface between ah artists and audiences is very much the focus of what festivals, when that when I think when they're doing it right, they get that kind of that special kind of moment is when those two things kind of come together and they're such kind of ephemeral moments that when you
00:10:17
Speaker
when you get um when you get that experience as a as ah as a shared experience within an audience to kind of see a work that kind of transcends and you can you can absolutely feel an audience kind of shift across an hour or so in in a room is quite remarkable and and and incredibly rare. you know Within the festival space, I've had the extraordinary privilege of of spending many, many years traveling around the world watching shows and and kind of you know bringing those works back to Australia and and and kind of being part of the creation of new works here in Australia.
00:10:59
Speaker
And it is, you know there's a lot of great work out there, but I think there's there's very few moments um but kind of that kind of really do transcend you know in a theater. And when that happens, that's that's very special.
00:11:14
Speaker
And I think there's, ah when it comes to festivals, it's almost people are so much more, audiences are much more open to take a risk. um You know, you put those same kind of works in an annual program, it's trickier, but it's almost like there's a trust with the audience and the festival to kind of know that the work that is going to be presented to them is going to be Yeah, it could have be life-changing, could be that something you've never seen before is the only kind of opportunity to see works like that, um of that scale. And from around the world um there's a yeah this really important kind of relationship, I think, between the festival and um audiences.
00:11:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I ah think that that risk thing is is really important. You're absolutely right in that you know festivals festival audiences have long been... um ah more and ambitious and open to what they are experiencing. I mean, they're the same audiences going to the theatre at the Sydney TV. They're the subscribers elsewhere. It's not that they're different audiences, but they come into it with a different set of expectations. And and and and that, I think, is is, again, something very special. And in fact, one of the the the most important kind of... um
00:12:31
Speaker
ah aspects of kind of the trust relationship festivals build with their audiences, you know, kind of trust us. We will, we we you know, if if you're if you're buying a ticket or coming to to a show ah but you don't read you're taking a risk, you don't really know what it is, you know, you're going to spend your 60 bucks, you know, kind of do it within a festival because, you know, there's there's a whole bunch of people that are they are amazing at kind of curating these things and And that artistic director is saying, this this is an amazing thing and then we will do everything we can to make sure that the context and and so on lands to to make it the best experience possible.
00:13:11
Speaker
um So I i think festivals have a great responsibility to maintain that because that can disappear in a moment.
Community Impact of Festivals
00:13:19
Speaker
Yeah, and they also seem to have ah play a really important role in community and the communities that work in.
00:13:24
Speaker
um You know, there's a sense of, you know, Perth Festival was very much a language like this is your festival, this is, you know, for the it's for the for the people. um Working with, you know, the per the community of Perth, it's while sometimes some festivals are about tourism and bringing people in, you know, a lot of the time the festival, especially in towns like ah cities, places like Tasmania and Perth, you're very much working with your local community.
00:13:51
Speaker
um And what kind of important role do you think the festival plays in that? I think there's a couple of things today. I think there's a much underrated ah role that festivals play as kind of community um makers in terms of bringing people together, um kind of providing a ah space of kind of equity and openness that that sometimes can spark other kind of civic activities. So, you know, the the the reason that many kind of councils and community houses and other kind of programs use art and festivals and presentations as a way of kind of facilitating kind of community engagement um is because they are very successful at often doing that. You know, that's a very particular way of working and it's often a,
00:14:46
Speaker
It takes time and it takes ah you know it takes a lot of time to kind of build the trust with with those community groups. But um yeah, that's that's really important because it often gives people space and a voice that that may not have it and also access to arts that if if those arts are placed in kind of the monoliths, the galleries and the big theatres and those kind of things that are for for many kind of considered institutes that they they don't necessarily feel welcoming or that's not for them, you can take the same kind of work and place it, you know, on the street in a community and and they absolutely go, oh, yeah, this is for us. this is You know, this makes sense.
00:15:28
Speaker
In fact, this reflects us. ah in some way or or kind of reflects a topic that we're trying to unpack at the moment. So that kind of community building capacity is is incredible in the arts and I think we are not great necessarily at quantifying that and figuring out how to how to communicate that value. I think it's generally understood that it's there but ah that that's ah that's a trickier one to do.
00:15:56
Speaker
i mean the the tourism piece is It's easy. you You know how many people hop on an airplane. You know how many bed nights are sold. Like it's very yeah easy to quantify that economic argument. um but i But I think the economic piece is the – is by far the smallest portion of the value that that arts brings to to community.
00:16:18
Speaker
um And so you know there's there's amazing work continuing to be done in that space around how you know what is the language we use and how do we how do we assess and look at the value that that festivals and art plays in as a community builder.
00:16:35
Speaker
yeah and you know I think too, the growing conversation about, particularly in regional communities that you know we're having here very much in Tasmania where the 10 Tas on the Island Festival works, is is around kind of the livability of these communities. you know they they're They're really wonderful and extraordinary places to live.
00:17:02
Speaker
But like many communities, there's deficiencies and complexity of living there, either in terms of the remoteness, access to healthcare, education, and cultural access is absolutely fundamental in any um vibrant, healthy community, whatever the size of it is or where it is. And so, you know, it's it's absolutely built into the DNA of the organization I work with that We are absolutely there for those communities. we We go into the regional communities of Tasmania and bring work that perhaps might only others otherwise sit in a you know national or an international context or ah or a yeah major gallery that they don't have access to. And festivals are so wonderful, they're kind of prototyping little halls and parks and you know spaces that perhaps wouldn't necessarily be used for ah the presentation of performance or art.
00:18:00
Speaker
and we kind of transform those into temporary galleries or temporary performance spaces. And I think that gives people such a wonderful way to reimagine their own neighborhood and their own community, their own streets, you know spaces and someone that they may spend a lot of time in. All of a sudden they see it in a different way and that holds true long, if it's successful, holds true long after the festival has left town because people kind of walk down the street and kind of that's that's a triggered memory for them. They're like, oh, i remember when that had changed. and
00:18:38
Speaker
And for me, the the the greatest kind of um impact in that space is that people then go, we we have the capacity to change the world around us. We don't just have to accept that that shop front is just a shop front or this street is just for cars or you know actually let's move that into these bigger ideas that we are just you know a few people on an island down the bottom of the spinning globe and we cannot affect you know great political change we may not think we can affect great you know changes to kind of the climate
00:19:19
Speaker
struggle, all of these things. And it in fact, so when you when you see these other moments of transformation, you you you know, for some people, you can look at that and go, actually, I can change the world around me. I can have a really big impact from here. And nothing is fixed.
00:19:37
Speaker
You know, we are all authors in this world around us. and And I think that is such an extraordinary kind of um ah thing that that that kind of art, particularly in regional communities, can can do. You know, not only is it ah often a glimpse to a world outside, but it is ah it is a glimpse to what their world and their community could be like if they want to make changes.
00:20:08
Speaker
Yeah.
Role of Artists in Society
00:20:10
Speaker
So um your recent blog post on the 10 Days on the Island website, um which I will link to, um discusses about the role of the artist and cultural leaders. um So it's not often a conversation that comes from someone from a non-artistic role.
00:20:24
Speaker
i mean, we often see a lot of stuff coming out from artistic directors and artists talking about the role of the artist. um But coming from your point of view as CEO and someone who's always kind of been behind the scene, can you discuss what was your drive behind this conversation? It really, there was like there was a number of things that led to to that piece, it was largely, there's been ah start a start of 10 podcasts that 10 Days on the Island is doing, which is a series of conversations that the artistic director is having with with kind of key artists leading up to the to the next festival.
00:20:59
Speaker
And I was listening to the recording of one of those conversations um and was in fact when we kind of reverse things up and Marnie, the artistic director of the ah festival was being interviewed herself. and And, you know, there was there was a bit of a discussion there about kind of, you know, being taken seriously in our careers. And that was just it just really struck me because it was, you know, obviously a feeling i have had, I'm sure you have had, you know, in your career of when people just don't seem to think it's a real job or that it's a serious thing to do. And and i was quite struck by it.
00:21:44
Speaker
to hear it from Marnie, you know, here's somebody absolutely kind of at the peak of their career internationally, really highly in demand artistic director and producer um who we're so fortunate to have and yet, you know, that feeling still exists of, you know, what what what are you going to do for a real job? Or as the classic festival thing that comes up from people when they hear you work on a festival, they ask when it is and you tell them and they're, great, one what do you do for the rest of the year? It's like, do you realise it takes hundreds of staff to to kind of pull these things off? And, and yes, we work year round on that.
00:22:28
Speaker
And, you know, these ah these are highly professionalised projects roles and expertise and and I think it's, you know, one, it's a kind of that questioning that people kind of go, you know, what what else do you do for a living, which is always a little bit shocking, but also kind of goes to me, know, kind of goes to that heart of, well, how do how do how do the arts make the most of, ah the you know, kind making clear our role and our value?
00:22:59
Speaker
ah to to the community at large. And that at the time too was I was having a conversation with somebody at the university here who, ah trying to do some research around the value of the arts. And they were talking to me about well how you you know where Where should we start? what What measures would you look at in terms of valuing the art?
00:23:20
Speaker
And I was quick to kind of respond saying, well, the for me, the measures should be about kind of key positions and decision making. To me, the successful of how the success of how a community values its artists should be important.
00:23:40
Speaker
you you know, the spaces in which they are contributing, not just in terms of their art form and their practice, but, you know, where are our artists sitting on local government councils? Where are our artists sitting on corporate boards? Where are our artists with their extraordinary...
00:23:59
Speaker
skill talent and remarkable kind of perspective on the world and ability to kind of synthesize big complex issues and problems and and and and then kind of form a response which is often what many artists are doing um you know that that's an extraordinary skill that is useful in so many places in our world that we don't often see artists invited to contribute or, you know, artists feel that they are welcome to contribute. And so, you know, for me to to respond to that kind of question from the university about, you know, what are the markers to to say that a society value an artist, I would say, you know, let's go forward a number of years and and all of this work we're trying to do to value artists is successful, then I would say I'd look around and see a world where
00:24:58
Speaker
All of those senior positions of and decision-making and and and kind of important discussions have artists involved in some way. So if you're going to count a number, if you're going to put a value on that's the value. You know, that's the number I would be looking for. You know, how how many are sitting on corporate boards? How many are sitting on on local government? How many do we have as kind of representatives elected in in political circles? and being And being taken seriously as well, like because it often, um you know, the arguments around um economic impact and all that kind of stuff is obviously not working. Like because, you know, we we kind of like, especially when it comes to arts funding and increasing the pie, um you know, the Treasury doesn't kind of see the value in the economic argument.
00:25:43
Speaker
But then you go with a social impact argument and it kind of i don't see that value either. And then it just becomes sort of like what is you add that value um in society and and be taken seriously because, ah you know, people see it as entertainment. You're the ones to roll be rolled out into entertainer.
00:26:01
Speaker
You know, it's a nice story. So let's pull out the nice stories all the time. It's like sometimes you just want to be taken really seriously. And I, you know, and ah and and exactly that. And that really led to, know, Marnie's kind of comment in in in her conversation with with Jane on the podcast and then these this other kind of conversation at the university level.
00:26:24
Speaker
was like, oh, you know, I sit that in a really privileged position. you know, I have a full-time salaried job as an arts manager in the industry um you know this this ah Most don't have the privilege of that.
00:26:43
Speaker
So I have a responsibility. i have always looked upon kind of my salaried kind of arts management positions as needing to to do a couple of things to justify that.
00:26:54
Speaker
um And that is, you know, I need to be raising more money and bringing non-arts money into projects for artists than my salary. know, I've got to make sure that I'm more than covered, not just kind of taking a wage away from an artist. So I need to be a,
00:27:12
Speaker
a kind of ah a multiplier in terms of that kind of monetary value for artists. um But i you know I also need to kind of advocate and kind of try and hold space for those artists that, um you know as we know from all of the the research and even the most current research out of Creative Australia and so on, you know the the artists in Australia are generally well below minimum wage in terms of what they're earning. you know Their arts practice often is their secondary um form of income.
00:27:47
Speaker
ah And you know in the current times, it just gets harder and harder. So you know yeah i am in a really privileged kind of position not only as a kind of a full-time kind of salaried individual, but also kind of the privilege of kind of being, ah you know, a white male, so therefore people, you know, listen as well.
00:28:08
Speaker
yeah So, you know, absolutely, that that piece around why, you know, to your original question around, you know, what normally you hear this from artistic directors and the artists themselves, it's like, well, no,
00:28:20
Speaker
ah you know, my my role is to advocate in that space as well. At the moment, I can't do that or or hold that space. I need to get out of the way. You know, that's that's very, very clear. So, um yeah yes, it was sparked by a very kind of personal kind of reaction to to what I've heard many, many times from people outside of the arts industry and that is this kind of questioning, oh, is that ah is that a real job? like, yeah, you know, it's been the last 30 years of my life and and and and is, you know, a very kind of serious job, you know, and and i was like, wow, if if I, in this kind of um very serious grownup job of being a ceo can't be taken seriously,
00:29:08
Speaker
um you know, what's the chance of these extraordinary artists that we're trying to advocate for? So that's, the yeah, that kind of led to that questioning really. yeah I think also here um in WA, there's a recent release of the 10-year vision from the state government and, um you know, we sit around wait to see what the state government say the the vision of our arts and culture and in WA is.
00:29:31
Speaker
It should be up to the artists and the arts organisations to decide what is our vision and what we are um trying to do. kind of It's the wrong way around. It feels like the wrong way around.
00:29:42
Speaker
Yeah, and you know I absolutely get the the the challenge of ah kind of financing things and the important role that all levels of of government play as as investing in in the cultural life of ah Australia.
00:29:59
Speaker
But You're right, and that they don't they don't and shouldn't be, they're not the right kind of entities to be leading this this conversation, ah I think principally because their their term and tenure is far too short. You know, if we're working very closely with artists to fundamentally,
00:30:22
Speaker
um ah you know, build Australia's kind of cultural legacy and and find voice for our national identity and stories, that's not a four-year term.
00:30:34
Speaker
You know, this has been going on well before our time and will go on well beyond our like lifetime. So we are kind of... just for those of us in these kind of privileged positions, we we're kind of custodians of making sure that we we we pick up from from where those before us have got to and and carry that forward. And and you know that that will be my, you know what I try and do over 40 or 50 year career is to is to go okay, can i can I look back and go, okay, my contribution and the value I have added to the Australian art scene
00:31:12
Speaker
has has made a difference, as small as it might be, has made a difference to our to our national identity. ah And and that that's the lens through which I think the sector should be um coming together around. Yes, there's always kind of advocacy around audiences and and and yeah funding agencies and and cultural strategies, but they're too short-sighted. I think this idea that you know, aiming for, you know, kind of incremental improvements and change to our cultural identity is is really the kind of what we should be aiming for. And and I think the the value proposition that we've been talking about for artists is really central to that. You know, we we need we need not to be advocating to fund the arts sector. I think it's more about going, how does the arts sector
00:32:11
Speaker
truly embed itself in every aspect of people's lives so that it isn't a questioned thing by anyone that there is value because it's it's just so interwoven. and i And I think to those kind of like the bigger things of the say the cultural strategy and the advocacy piece and so on, you know the discussion we've been having at a local sector day and that down here recently,
00:32:40
Speaker
It's more about going, you know, what, how do we, you know, not advocate necessarily to the government for more money, but how do we advocate government to to shift how it values the arts, you know, is that, what are the decisions about how the arts portfolio is handled within cabinet, you know, what,
00:33:08
Speaker
what are ministers and the Premier attending? what are What are they seen to be attending? What are they patrons of? What are the what are the people in power and and and kind of, you know, consuming, you know, media space and so on? what Are they kind of saying, hey, you know, yes, I'm attending the cricket on this day, but I'm also going to the theatre on this other day, you know, because that is all kind of,
00:33:36
Speaker
That all represents part of our national identity when we see the Prime Minister at a cricket, but we don't see them attending theatre. You know, what does that
Government's Role in Arts Support
00:33:45
Speaker
say? I mean, you go go back in history and and kind of the the ebb and flow of of the attendance and and kind of who was attending theatre, you know, so often was was to was to do with the patronage, you know, when when the when the you know kind of royals and royal family and and so on decided they would be patrons of the arts and attend performances, that fundamentally changed who who felt they had to attend because it was the done thing to do, you know.
00:34:16
Speaker
um and then, you know, kind of shifts through to kind of the, you know, kind of activist, activist theatre and those kinds of things in terms of, okay, where does this power sit now with, you know, kind of the the working class and and the unions and so on, and and that those incredible kind of theatre making ah history yeah around the world, but, you know, particularly here in Australia, you know, that that was all about kind of going, okay, who values this as a tool to change the world around us? And and I think advocating to governments should
00:34:50
Speaker
to me, in my mind, should be more about going, okay, how do we be great patrons of the arts and how do we lift the value of that in the consciousness of all Australians rather than just a conversation about how do we fund it and therefore we're trying to justify the value.
00:35:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's interesting we're going through a period at the moment in WA because there's an election coming up the West Australian Labor government is very much going to be in power um again um unless there is so the three seats that Liberals have suddenly, yes, suddenly they get 30 more.
00:35:30
Speaker
um But so then a lot of ministers ah have left, are leaving, are retiring at this time because it's quite safe. um So there's a lot of conversations. We're losing our arts minister and it's a lot of conversation about who is the next arts minister and, you know, wanting, a you know,
00:35:48
Speaker
who Are they going to give it to someone as a nice portfolio, nice-to-have portfolio, or are they going to give it a senior minister to actually take it seriously? um So, yeah, it's it's a wait and see. I think we'll wait for the next three months to see what happens.
00:36:04
Speaker
yeah But it also doesn't just sit with... with the politicians in the sense of who takes on that portfolio. you know ah we We had a cabinet reshuffle down here not that long ago at a state level. and um I was absolutely appalled to see in our kind of statewide newspaper, The Mercury, when doing a roundup of all the cabinet shuffles and who's got what portfolio, they listed every single portfolio except for the arts, you know. So even the reporters are just like, oh, well, it's important or not top of mind to think that the the it is a portfolio issue.
00:36:47
Speaker
that has has an impact on ah on a sector and a group of people that are incredibly valuable to our society. and and ah that that's the value kind of discussion for me not not a monetary one you know to that time that's a really appalling oversight by a journalist and i'm sure it was it was just an oversight they looked down the list but yeah you know again you know that that idea of looking forward to a future of like ah you know what is an ideal world that i would love to see and that is one that ah
00:37:18
Speaker
ah you know, a well-informed journalist looks down a list and it's instantly obvious to them that they've missed arts on the list versus, you know, if they'd missed, you know, treasury and finance off the list, that they would have known that instantly and just kind of fixed it, if you know what I mean. it just odd in that sense, you know.
00:37:39
Speaker
The media, that's like another hope another conversation. Yes. Yes. So um as well in the in your um post as well, we talk there was a conversation, you talk a bit about the um the change in consumption of the arts or consumptions of media and about the epidemic of scrolling and swiping and um how big a part of culture that is now.
Digital Platforms & Arts Consumption
00:38:02
Speaker
And I think, you know, looking at TikTok, there's, you know, people are dancing and performing, acting, and they're playing these roles.
00:38:08
Speaker
But how we're consuming that is ah is a different matter. um so there is a so ah while the that is happening as well there is also seems to be a bit of a fight against this um short consumption and digital like obsession with people kind of reverting to more traditional um you know dumb phones becoming a big thing um and young people just not and wanting to engage in in the social media at certain levels that our generation do.
00:38:38
Speaker
um And, you know, especially with the rise of Substack, which is like we long form newsletters. I mean, who who knew that that was going to be big thing? Yeah. um So do you think that like the world will kind of just write itself? It will just kind of go through these ebbs and flows of fads of ways of kind of consuming and kind of settle back down into way it should be? It should be.
00:39:03
Speaker
No, well, yeah, to that point would say I hope it doesn't. It should never. I mean, you know, we're talking about but the culture, our culture, which is, know, it's an ever-growing, morphing, changing, exciting thing. And, you know, I would never want that to settle down. That should always be on edge and disrupted and kind of kind of falling from one thing to the next as amazing artists and people kind of,
00:39:28
Speaker
find ways to to to share on on new platforms, new technology. you know Our language through these technologies is morphing and changing and and you know that's that's fine. That's not technology's fault. And in fact, I think it's such a great, um particularly kind of generative AI and so on is such an exciting thing in this space. Yes, it's absolutely destructive around rights and um you know the kind of the the issues around what it might mean for many artists, but it also means that many artists that or people that feel that they are excluded, be it through disability or access or education from kind of participating or creating or putting forward their ideas, be it a movie trailer or you know a kind of a
00:40:23
Speaker
a storyboard or you know these kind of things that some people feel that those are real serious barriers to them sharing the idea they have in their head and bringing it into the world, all of a sudden that's kind of unlocked. And I think that's really exciting if we can find a way to kind of balance out the ah kind of wholesale kind of theft of people's IP.
00:40:45
Speaker
ah So look, i don't i I think it will write itself in the sense that you know culturally we always um respond and rebel and react and swing away from what becomes those kind of cultural norms. So absolutely, like you're saying, the kind of the short form and the responses, you know, culturally we move to to kind of demanding long form.
00:41:11
Speaker
and ah And as I said in the piece I wrote, i I have absolute confidence that this kind of digital kind of swiping coma that we seem to be in, um we we will see a cultural response to that. And the opposite to that is social spaces and kind of the real world. And so, you know, things like live performance then to me are an absolute natural kind of,
00:41:44
Speaker
a space in which people will kind of go, Oh, I can move into that. You know, they might still be doom scrolling on the train on the way to that experience, but it's, it's, you know, it's an offering that they will go hunting for again, i think.
00:41:59
Speaker
Um, so yes, it will be there, but you know, we, I don't think it's that kind of, the we shouldn't be at the process of kind of going, well, that's, that's bad or other. and No, it's just part of kind of where we are culturally at the moment.
00:42:13
Speaker
Um, So I just, what I was trying to articulate in the, in the piece I wrote was that we just need to make sure that through this time where perhaps live performance and ticket sales are not great for for many, that we find a way as a community to sustain the artists and the arts practices who specialize in that live performance space and those shared experiences, because We're going to need them, we're going to want them in you know a few years' time or not that long down the track when we all start looking up from our screens and going, i you know, i' I'd really like to kind of go out and see a live band, you know, not a 15-second or 10-second dance, you know.
00:43:01
Speaker
um So if if we don't find a way to kind of support and protect and look after those artists through the next few years when,
00:43:12
Speaker
We are seeing this kind of downturn in tickets and attendance at live events and so on. um Those amazing artists are not going to be there when we do look up from our screens. That's that's all I was saying. I wasn't saying, you know let's get rid of the screens. They're a bad thing.
00:43:26
Speaker
I'm just saying, look, we need to we need to kind of find a way to kind of value our artists through this time of of of kind of really kind of difficult hardship, really, in terms of how they make a living, how they how their practice is is attended. and And again, for me, it's it's about being a good patron. you know it's It's about patronage and going, i can go down and make a decision and go down to my local gallery. you know It often costs me absolutely nothing but me walking through the door
00:44:00
Speaker
is another tick, is another attendance, me leaving a comment on their website. doesn't cost anything. But all of these things will help that local gallery kind of keep going and commission the next set of artists and the next ex of exhibition, and you know, to, to go, okay, we, we, we, we do have a few bucks, we but we want to go out and and have a drink.
00:44:22
Speaker
Well, if we're trying to choose the pub to go to, maybe choose the one that does program live music. If you can find one, that's pretty tricky now, you so that you're, you're, you're kind of where you're choosing to spend your hard earned dollar that it's all, you know,
00:44:39
Speaker
It's tough at the moment, I get it. But, you know, yeah those decisions, what seem kind of small decisions actually will make a really, really big impact at the moment in terms of how artists can make a living and and those kind of things. So, um you know, i'm I'm not necessarily saying, hey, we all need to go out and buy a really expensive theatre ticket. If you can, great. You know, treat yourself, do that um ah once ah you know once a year or more if you if you can.
00:45:07
Speaker
But there's lots and lots of things from, you know, going to the library and getting a book out and reading a book. That's supporting an artist, you know. like there's so many things. And and I think ah think this this old idea that, you know, arts is kind of elitist and costs money and, yeah, there's aspects of it that,
00:45:29
Speaker
that do cost money, but there's so many things that are of value to artists and show your value to artists that you can do is ah as a patron. So, yeah, my my my kind of article was really just kind of advocating that we need to we need to be really conscious as as as arts patrons over the the next few years. Otherwise, i'm just really worried that um we're going to have a lot less amazing artists working and and kind of contributing to our ah kind of national identity in the coming years.
00:46:07
Speaker
And so you're based up in the north west coast in Tasmania um and presenting so presenting an international arts festival. can be quite challenging the best of times. um And so the remoteness of your organisation seems to contradict, but it kind of creates more challenges for that international scope that you have yeah as a festival.
00:46:28
Speaker
um So how do you approach that at 10 days and what makes it unique? um Yeah, look, I think it does create challenges, but it also opens up so many opportunities. um You know, it's it's an extraordinary, I find it an extraordinary thing to be able to live in a regional community but work at a kind of national and an international level. So there's this is kind of wonderful balance between, you know, so so many people think about a tree change or a sea change and then think, well, that means I can't maintain my career or my practice at that same level because I will be disconnected.
00:47:14
Speaker
So I think we found a really great balance here of lifestyle for our staff ah and and still staying connected to to to kind of the national and the international discourse.
00:47:28
Speaker
um But, you know, there are just kind of challenges. Every time we want to have a meeting, it's often a four-hour drive in the car to see someone face-to-face.
00:47:40
Speaker
you know that So that adds expense and cost. There are kind of there are kind of physical challenges to that remoteness. um But i I also think that there is, in terms of my own capacity, and I'm sure it's the same for many of the staff here,
00:47:58
Speaker
um yeah i just have more bandwidth living here. you know my my my but My brain is not as consumed by navigating a complex, fast-paced an environment.
00:48:14
Speaker
Yeah. From, you know, kind of public transport to this, and you know, like kind of what those day-to-day things that you often don't give a huge amount of thought to, but they consume bandwidth. They consume your energy. They consume just in order to kind of survive and be present in those kind of places.
00:48:32
Speaker
um And so if you're able then to reallocate that energy and that brain space to other things and brain might be reflecting on these kind of topics, um you know, less travel time so we can have these kind of conversations, to walking the dog on the beach rather than commuting, you know, that that makes a big difference, I think, yeah to to my capacity to kind of contribute to the world um as as long as I can stay connected and relevant. and
00:49:05
Speaker
And that is a problem. You know, many, many people working in the urban space still see you know, regional workers and regional artists as something less rather than no one.
00:49:17
Speaker
You just come at it with a different perspective. I mean, I found that when i when I moved to Sydney for the first time and that kind of it took me a couple of months for people to go and kind of realise it's like, oh, no, you're from Perth. doesn't mean you're not good at it. it's just from a It's the same. It's just smaller.
00:49:36
Speaker
um But people kind of, oh, okay. It's like, yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And, i you know, I think that that there's a whole kind of other conversation there around kind of the the kind of where regional arts in Australia is at and and kind of the extraordinary opportunity and transformation that is happening in that space, but also ah think the the really problematic role that our urban-centric in Australia, our very urban-centric approach to
00:50:10
Speaker
planning and and valuing um is is really, I think, holding back a lot of kind of the rise of of regional lifestyles and and and reach regional cultural identities. Yeah.
00:50:25
Speaker
So you're on the board of Performing Lions, a national producing organisation, and represent 10 Days on Island at CAIF, which is the Confederation International Arts Festival. So you still remain quite connected with the main, the the big island. Yes. From a creative point of view.
00:50:42
Speaker
um So have you that understanding of the national landscape and what's going on What kind of excites you about what's happening at the moment? um I think i think the the the transformation of Creative Australia um i I think is is in terms of the the long-term impacts that that's going to have for the cultural sector, I think is incredibly exciting, both in terms of the kind of the the workplace safety transformations through to the First Nations board, through to you know the the the complete restructure of kind of
00:51:20
Speaker
the priorities attached to the to the cultural strategy. I mean, the very fact that we have a cultural strategy is so so wonderful and to see see those things now, you know, a few years in and and so many of the the the kind of ideas in that cultural strategy that You know, we we all sat around when it first came out going, okay, how we how we get you know how do we contribute to this kind of big, complex idea? and And now to be, know, was it three or four years on and starting to go, okay, you know, yep, we've succeeded in many of those areas or at least they're in progress. and And I think those kind of massive structural changes um well will kind of, you know,
00:52:03
Speaker
will be a really significant legacy to it to ah Australia's kind of art scene and and and its cultural identity. So long as we can hold hold a path through, I'm not saying necessarily we need to hold the current cultural policy through, but I think we need to, whichever side of government, federal government, we end up with next year after the election,
00:52:26
Speaker
to kind of keep those changes moving forward. you know the I think it would be incredibly disappointing to see another raid on Creative Australia, as we saw through the Brandeis changes and so on.
00:52:40
Speaker
um I think that would be incredibly destructive to to these really important changes that we're seeing that are going to have massive impacts across you the music industry and and all sorts of stuff. I mean, I think that's incredibly exciting.
00:52:55
Speaker
um i I also do feel that there is, in terms of the the digital space and and I know AI is everything, so much people are talking about it, we're all sick of talking about it, but but I do think the the the transformation around digital, ah what it means in terms of access, I think is really amazing.
00:53:17
Speaker
and And I mean that both in terms of the, you know, access for audiences to to to access kind of shows and performances and and artworks in a new way, perhaps a along give them a longer period of time with those works, um but also kind of,
00:53:37
Speaker
you know, disability access and those kind of services that um so some sometimes for small organisations with limited resources, um they were really difficult things to achieve.
00:53:50
Speaker
um And so much of what we've seen come out of the ah kind of things like, know, the recording systems and zooms and teams and all of those kind of things actually have embedded in them a whole bunch of extraordinary access technology and transcribing and so on that to a limited extent but you know a useful extent will and is having a ah really extraordinary kind of change um in terms of access to the arts that we can and should be adopting
00:54:22
Speaker
but also kind of that that transformation in terms of artistic practices and and the time for artistic practice. you know um you know there's We were having a conversation here the other day about how we as an organisation adopt ah AI and in what areas we're choosing not to adopt it currently.
00:54:43
Speaker
um you know and Again, you know we're we're not an organisation. I know some arts organisations are kind of really hitting the brakes on that just to be you know as a way of supporting artists that are really under threat with with the growth of AI. I get that and we're not suggesting that we're replacing artists' jobs with AI at this stage. What we're doing with AI is about replacing time-consuming tasks that we might be doing in administration and accounting or um all sorts of things, replace those so that, you know, even my time, I have more time to be out there advocating for artists, trying to raise money for the projects we need so that we can pay more artists and engage more artists to do what they do, not do them out of a job, you know. and I think, you know, if if ah if I can kind of get
00:55:38
Speaker
kind of AI in in useful product ways rolled out through this organisation, um you know, it's really going to transform what it means within a small regional arts organisation if all of a sudden, you know, we can we've got the equivalent of having, you know, kind of an off-site or an assistant or somebody to help us, you know, kind of wordsmith grant applications or you know, do deep dive data analytics that is really starting to kind of come into its own through AI pieces at the moment.
00:56:12
Speaker
um Yet there's spaces that, you know, we absolutely refuse to use it in terms of, of you know, kind of HR, um assessment of applications and shortlisting and those kind of things. It's like, no, like it's it's proven not ready yet in that space and is bringing a lot of kind of bias around kind of gender and age and and equity inclusion and so on that is inherent sadly in our community and AI of course is just reflecting that um and so it's like no that's that's that's not healthy for us as an organisation and it's not going to help us so you know we don't use it in in that aspect you know so i think it's just being smart around that and again kind of going okay how do we how do we kind of use it to to add value in terms of
00:57:04
Speaker
ah to to our artists and and lift our artists
AI in Arts Organizations
00:57:07
Speaker
up. um i i remember i remember you and I had a conversation a couple of years ago when I was at 10 Days and we talked about blockchain and um the potential of blockchain, especially when it comes to ticketing and contracting and all those kind of things.
00:57:21
Speaker
um And I really feel like the NFTs and the Crypto Bros are stuff that up like yeah sort took it so far and it became nft became a thing and then just they just destroyed it and it was like ah now yeah so hopefully that doesn't happen um with the things that are actually useful for the world yeah totally and you know there's there's just any reality the the reality for any business of any size is There is just a bunch of busy work that that is important. There's important compliance matters and and you know important kind of archiving and processes that that that need to be done and need to be done right.
00:58:05
Speaker
i that They're not the best way. you know Having, like we've got here at the moment, you know some amazing producers, who their days currently are filled with drafting contracts and contract templates, yes you know, it's like that's not the best use of a skilled producer's time, you know. Like if I could get them out from behind their computer and drafting a contract and into a rehearsal room or in a space with the artists actually making their work and talking about that and supporting those artists, that's a much better use of their time. um Yeah.
00:58:40
Speaker
Hand that stuff over to AI. I don't have a problem with that. Excellent. So finally, to wrap up, so I've just got one very important question, Vern. So we often have always argued about this, um that opera versus musicals, and you're disdained for a good musical um and you do not hide it, while I often find opera deeply boring.
00:59:00
Speaker
um So how do you make this distinction and then we can discuss why you're wrong?
00:59:06
Speaker
i'm to for For me, and this yes, I'm going to... There's no way of answering this without clearly getting in a lot of trouble. But, um you know it's ah it's you know, it does. it It just comes down to a personal preference. i I've never really liked musicals.
00:59:26
Speaker
um and i And for me, I think the the challenge I find with musicals is that detached, you know, it is what people, many people love about it, and that is a complete detachment from reality, you know, a complete um ah sense of escapism into another world.
00:59:51
Speaker
And there's something about musicals in terms of just that that feels like it's a joyous rendition and and a sing-along for something that might actually, the scene might actually be a, you know, difficult heart-rendering kind of, you know, moment and everyone seems to be kind of singing and dancing and kind of in a conga line. I know that that's not true in terms of how the musicals musicals are, but that's usually my overwhelming experience of sitting in a musical is just going,
01:00:22
Speaker
why are you all singing a happy song right now? This is not a happy moment. It just often lacks the modulation that I enjoy in, say, a theatre show or even, you know, even opera. You know, it's that kind of, um you know, that it it doesn't,
01:00:39
Speaker
I don't seem to experience the kind of the the range that I enjoy in terms of ah emotional range. Yeah. I think also it comes down to that, like, you know, I saw my first musical at four and i mum took me along to musicals all through my ah youth my childhood. So it's a very deep-seated personal thing.
01:01:02
Speaker
But yet they might just make me cry no matter what. It's just like this strange emotional moment. While opera I find I'm not a huge fan of classical music either and I think the combination of all that just find it a little bit meh.
01:01:16
Speaker
Though spectacular and very expensive um and, you know quite an inaccessible work. I think that there was some operas that have been created in WA at the moment, WA operas um with Gina,
01:01:31
Speaker
um and Guy, in for so operas in Noongar language. um yeah I really love that and I think love connecting with community in the way that they create that, using that kind of as an art form.
01:01:43
Speaker
But generally, um I mean, you know, i you know i there there are, you know, musicals that you know i like dancer in the dark is one of my ah favorite all-time films and you know people who know me who know i absolutely don't enjoy going to musicals then wonder why i'm happy to re-watch that movie kind of whenever can and they're like hey well well i thought you didn't like musicals but but again is there's something about the emotional range and where that lands the story, the language that's used in it is really, really interesting.
01:02:22
Speaker
So, you know, it you know if the musical kind of does that, I think i think it's really interesting. and And like you're saying, in the opera space, and we have seen it in in musicals, I think, in Australia over the last...
01:02:35
Speaker
kind of 10 or 15 years, this really wonderful shift and confidence around going, well, no, we don't have to do this in American accents. We don't have to necessarily to tell those American stories that don't quite land here Australia, you know.
01:02:52
Speaker
i um So, though you know, i think that is an an added layer to me is that, you know, some of my first experiences of musicals were, you know, that time when we just had those kind of,
01:03:05
Speaker
huge um Cameron Mackintosh to it you know they're kind of that big kind of machine of the musical um and and so I saw these very Americanized versions in terms of of of how they were being staged and and so on and and and that in itself I just felt It didn't connect with me. You know, i could see people around absolutely on the journey, look around the audience, and I'm like, clearly I'm missing something. Like, I'm just, im just they just don't generally do much for me.
01:03:40
Speaker
That's true. Yeah, that's okay. Not everything's for everyone, Ben. ah that's true. buts No matter how much marketing copy he tells you it's it's something for everyone, it's not true. Yeah.
01:03:52
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for joining me. It's been fun always having a chat with you, Vern, and um we, yeah, usually often much more heated and um passionate over glass of wine.
01:04:04
Speaker
So maybe one time, another time. Thank you. Thank you, Georgia.
01:04:12
Speaker
Thank you to my guest, Vern. I love the opportunity to catch up with old friends that are on the other side of the country to discuss things that we're both just really passionate about.
Festival Announcement
01:04:21
Speaker
Vern's festival, 10 Days on the Island, is on 21 to 30 of March this year.
01:04:26
Speaker
Check out 10days.org.au for the full program. There's no better time to head to Tassie than for a festival. For links to everything that has been mentioned, check out my sub stack at here goes nothing pod dot sub stack dot com and make sure you subscribe.
01:04:42
Speaker
Thanks to everyone that has been listening. Don't forget to follow this podcast so that you know when your episodes are released and to make sure you rate and review. Next time we talk to Dr. Mace Francis, composer, musician and artistic director of the Perth International Jazz Festival.
01:04:59
Speaker
Mace shares his stories of growing up in creative household and his lifelong passion for music. Till then. This podcast was made on Whadjuk Noongar Budja, a place I'm very privileged to call my home, and I acknowledge and honour all Noongar people that have been making art on this land for tens of thousands of years, and will continue to do so for generations to come.
01:05:19
Speaker
Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Original music by Lyndon Blue. This is a GM Productions project.