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Coaching Leaders in the Middle East
71 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of PRIME SPACE, host Elias Scultori, MCC, welcomes Rory Courlander, ACC—an Irish-born coach and international educator now serving as Director of Instructional Coaching at GEMS Education in Dubai. Together, they explore the unique dynamics of coaching in Arabic and Muslim contexts, where culture, education, and coaching intersect in powerful ways.
Rory shares his journey from Ireland to Thailand and ultimately to Dubai, offering personal stories and professional insights that illuminate how culture shapes coaching conversations. From experiencing a full Ramadan fast alongside a colleague to discovering the Arabic word “Ershad” (meaning guidance), Rory shows how genuine cultural immersion, language adaptation, and trust-building are essential in creating meaningful coaching partnerships.
Listeners will also gain practical strategies for navigating hierarchical structures, fostering reflective practices, and flexing coaching approaches to align with cultural values while maintaining authenticity. At its core, this episode highlights how coaching, when rooted in respect and cultural sensitivity, transcends boundaries to create an authentic human-to-human connection.
Perfect for coaches working with diverse populations, international educators, and anyone interested in cross-cultural communication, this conversation offers both inspiration and practical wisdom for building trust and impact across cultural lines.
#Coaching #CultureInCoaching #CoachingPodcast #PRIMESPACE
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Transcript
Introduction to Prime Space Podcast
00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to PRIME SPACE a PRIME Coaching Academy podcast with your host, Elias Scultori. So hello coaches, welcome again to another episode of PRIME SPACE
Culture in Coaching Series Overview
00:00:19
Speaker
Today, this episode is part of the culture in coaching series that I have here, PRIME SPACE
00:00:27
Speaker
In this series, usually I have a guest ah who is part of or works with a specific segment of the human population. And the objective of having these conversations is to for us to get a glimpse of of what is to work with people, in in individuals in this population, but most importantly,
00:00:50
Speaker
The objective here is to expand our listening, paying attention to the nuances of every individual, regardless of each culture, every individual is unique, right? So what can we learn from these different perspectives that will enhance our our listening and our observation of our
Meet Rory Kulander: Life and Work in Dubai
00:01:10
Speaker
clients?
00:01:10
Speaker
Today, have with me Rory. Hello, Rory. Hello, Elias are you? Very good to have you here, Rory Courlander Rory is an ACC coach.
00:01:22
Speaker
he You probably already noticed, Rory is born it was born in Ireland. and But today he is Director of Instructional Coaching at GEMS Education in Dubai, the United Arab Emirates. And you can see already...
00:01:40
Speaker
That culture is part of of Rory's story here. Rory, such rich ah conversation here. Rory lives in Dubai with his wife and two kids. One is 16, one is seven.
00:01:54
Speaker
Beautiful family, Rory. ah Rory, let's start here. How long have you been in Dubai? Yeah, thank you. We're in Dubai at the moment and at peak heat. So we're at about 40, between 40 and 43 degrees until it cools down in about November time. So we're adapting to that.
00:02:13
Speaker
This is our ninth year here in Dubai. And I've been working in the same school for nine years. And and it was my, about five years ago, i had my first introduction to coaching.
00:02:25
Speaker
And And that kind of opened up my eyes to falling in love with coaching as I do to my subject of psychology, but noticing ah kind of a gap within education of where coaching could land.
00:02:39
Speaker
And so i went on, obviously did my coach training, my coaching certificate ah certificate, and I've been lucky enough to be able to work as a teaching and learning coach at the school for three years.
00:02:50
Speaker
and where I've been able to train over 47 of our senior leaders, middle leaders in a two-day coaching program and worked extensively with teachers and leaders.
00:03:01
Speaker
And I actually just introduced our students to a four-hour leadership coaching skills kind of program last year. And now I have the opportunity and working in Dubai, obviously having some clients outside as well.
00:03:15
Speaker
And so it's Coaching for me, when i when i when i when I experienced it, I knew i had to learn more so I could give it back. That was just what I needed to do.
00:03:27
Speaker
You know, it's i I'm always fascinated by having these conversations with you, Rory, because of the richness of culture and life that you have in your experience.
00:03:39
Speaker
born in Ireland, and then you spent some time in Thailand. Now you are in Dubai. And by the way, you said 40 to 43 degrees. I want to make sure that everybody knows that that is Celsius, not Fahrenheit. I don't know what that transfers to Fahrenheit, but it's hot. That's all I to say. It's hot.
00:03:57
Speaker
But then, you know, living in Dubai...
What is Instructional Coaching?
00:04:00
Speaker
You have the the educational background. You have your psychology background. but like Wow, so much happening there. And up so what, you know, I looked at your title here, Director of Instructional Coaching.
00:04:16
Speaker
What is instructional coaching, Rory? Yeah, that's, yeah, there's kind of two words. I'll give you kind of the definition I use. I was just presenting it today, actually. and It's a partnership with teachers to help them improve their teaching and learning so students can become more successful.
00:04:35
Speaker
and What I kind of frame it to people who are not in education or don't it's performance coaching. So teaching is a performance and like every performance, you can only teach a particular element of a lesson with those students once a year.
00:04:48
Speaker
That's it. So we want to really optimize those performances and those teaching practices to improve our student learning outcomes. And where coaching comes in there is ah partnership approach and non-directive, non-judgmental, non-evaluative,
00:05:03
Speaker
where we're working with the teachers as kind of a second pair of eyes on the students learning and then asking them questions to identify what areas in their practice that they feel will have the greatest impact on students. we're going to bring you We're going to bring you back here and have an episode on instructional coaching only because there is a depth over there over there. And let's make sure that we that we have that, Rory. It would be wonderful to have the ah conversation again with you.
Cultural Contrasts: Dubai vs. Ireland
00:05:32
Speaker
if we If we focus ah on on the Dubai experience, Dubai is an international ah city. You mentioned earlier today, before we hit the recording button, that 95% of the city of expat know yeah Between 80 and 90%. 80 and 90%. Yes, it's ah it's it's a huge chunk of the of of the population there.
00:06:00
Speaker
and and right in ah an Arabic and Muslim culture, you have this the city there. what what What can you tell us ah about this experience of being in such a, I would say, different culture from growing up in Ireland?
00:06:19
Speaker
Yeah, the you do feel it. You do feel that obviously the culture kind of as all cultures would kind of mirror the environment as well. You know, so with the with the heat and the direct sun and the sand. But I think one thing that I've noticed here is that the Arabic culture is is very welcoming and they're known for the hospitality.
00:06:42
Speaker
and But in in in kind of psychological terms, you have this collectivist approach within Arabs very based on their family, their community. But what they have in Dubai is a highly individualistic city where it's very focused, fast paced, achievement, growth, personal accomplishment and career.
The Growth of Coaching in Dubai
00:07:02
Speaker
And what you notice here in most kind of dinner parties, the question is, so what do you do here in Dubai? Now what I loved in Ireland back in the summer, how are you doing?
00:07:14
Speaker
Person first. And it's very career focused. Now for me, i really I've really enjoyed our time here because you get a choice of lifestyles here as well, you know, and because of the seasons and you make some amazing friends, which kind of become family, but also it's very transactional and transient.
00:07:32
Speaker
And I think the transactional piece is a key one to remember because because it's transient, you're kind of passing each other by and having these interactions. And there is a gap for more transformal transformational conversations. so and slowing people down for reflective practices. And coaching is is is is actually, i've been in the last 18 months, I've seen coaching really start to evolve within Dubai and in many industries, performance coaches, wellbeing coaches, and then within education, there's a huge shift.
00:08:05
Speaker
And with people that are focused on their career, their growth, their achievement, Well, I think we can both agree there's only one process that will help you develop that, and that's a full coaching cycle.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah. and ah And I've had several students and mentees from ah from Dubai. And I know that there is ah a curiosity and a growth around this idea of of coaching.
00:08:33
Speaker
One thing that what you said there caught my curiosity here, you you mentioned the distinction between what would be the primary question in a party in Ireland and in a social gathering there in Dubai.
00:08:46
Speaker
I would imagine that you have been or that you at least have but some ideas of outside of Dubai in a more ah Arabic and Muslim situation.
00:08:59
Speaker
What would be the primary question there? I wonder. Well, the one thing you notice, and I have this quite regularly because within within my work, we have our Arabic teachers.
00:09:13
Speaker
So they're teaching our students Arabic and we have our Islamic teachers. So you will walk past and when you walk past their classrooms, and it's a very noticeable cultural difference. You walk through the corridors, you will have a lot of the Westerner teachers here sitting in their classrooms, usually by themselves.
00:09:28
Speaker
working away, maybe eating their lunch. But when you walk past the the kind of the Muslim teachers and the Arabic, sorry, Islamic and Arabic, they'll be all together, coffee, food, connection, collaboration, sharing.
00:09:43
Speaker
And they always welcome you in. but I cannot walk past them without them going, come in and have some shawarma, habibi, come. And like what they really respect. And I actually didn't realize this until I've done it regularly last year.
00:09:57
Speaker
when you greet them in their language, when you say good morning to them, when you speak, and like all cultures, and their eyes light up, they're like, oh, wow. he's And what you're doing is like, I see you as kind of, I think there's a great word in South Africa, what's it called?
00:10:12
Speaker
And its it means i see you something. And it's, do you know what it is? No, I can't remember. Ubuntu or something similar. Yes, yes. Yes, that's it. Thank you. And it is. yeah So I think when you're an international teacher and we teach the International Baccalaureate, like,
00:10:28
Speaker
open mindedness, cultural sensitivity, global mindedness, and with that comes acceptance and coaching is perfect for that. Now, I spend a lot of time and with my Arabic colleagues and one of my best experiences
Cultural Immersion Experiences
00:10:44
Speaker
was an Arabic colleague from Egypt.
00:10:46
Speaker
And I said, I'd love to do one of the longest days in Ramadan as a fast, but I'd like to, I want to break it properly. Like, I don't know what to do. And he says, right, I'll, if you do a full day, 4.20 in the morning, wake up and then 6.55 to break fast in the evening, you don't have water or food.
00:11:04
Speaker
I will bring you and we will do it properly. Oh, it was one the best experiences I've ever had in a buffet in the middle of the desert and we shared and he showed me like you have to have your fruit juice and then your and dates.
00:11:19
Speaker
But then he was in Egypt, but it was the first time he exposed me to all this Arabic food. And I was like, oh, my God, this is the nicest food. Now, I hadn't eaten for like 14 hours. because Oh, my gosh.
00:11:29
Speaker
yeah i love i love this experience and I love this account. I'm I am a person, you know, i grew i grew up in Brazil. I lived did yeah i lived in the U.S. s for most of my life, actually.
00:11:42
Speaker
But this idea of the it's fascinating to me to see how people interact with each other and how people live their lives and the the nuances of culture. So thank you for sharing that ah episode of the the the Ramadan and the closing of the Ramadan there.
00:12:00
Speaker
I wonder, Rory, With this experience that you have working with the the ah the teachers and clients from Arabic and Muslim culture, what what nuances do you see in you in the coaching process?
00:12:21
Speaker
There's... I'll get to the coaching process because there was something i learned two years ago was that what you feel is that when you're speaking to people from this region and you're sharing new ideas,
00:12:37
Speaker
there's a sense of just another Westerner coming over and telling us how to do things. And I was very, when I started doing my professional development and engaging in coaching cycles with my colleagues and using the coaching process and approach, I was like, it's based in partnership.
00:12:53
Speaker
So how do i how do I find a way to partner with them and align myself? And it wasn't until I came across the word Urshad, which is an Arabic word for guidance, and showing the way and leading to the right path.
00:13:10
Speaker
And I read the book called Coaching in Islamic Cultures, which is called The Practice of Urshad by a very well-known coach in education called Christian van Jureberg. And when I read that and I started to open my sessions with that word and kind of the translation, then they opened, their whole barriers just kind of went down.
00:13:31
Speaker
And i what I was trying to kind of emphasize that coaching is in all languages and all cultures. can Trace it back in the Greeks. So this is not me bringing a Western view. I'm bringing a process that is already embedded in your language, which you can see. It's embedded in your culture, which is there.
00:13:48
Speaker
So now how do I bring that out to meet the needs of your particular cultural community? kind of nuances in language. And then once we had that, then they were open to a more reflective a reflective practice. Now, as I said, there's a hierarchical nature.
00:14:05
Speaker
So trying to ask questions where particularly i would say the Arab males have to think and answer because of their upbringing within hierarchy and authority. And if I'm in that position,
00:14:21
Speaker
they won't it's very hard for them to just express because they're worried for getting it wrong getting it right and they're used to judgments so it takes a lot of time to just have these small and what I call I call them corridor coaching because it's in the corridor but like laser focus coaching sessions so it's consistent in my presence mirrored kind of practicing coaching asking questions listening and now because of this um And then you get working with them. And then once again, I believe this, once you experience coaching yourself and you can see the benefits, you you want to reciprocate that.
00:14:56
Speaker
So now what I have is I just had it today. Two my colleagues started new year. How am I going to have all my coaching sessions with you this year? and then And then the head of those, like, Rory, can we make sure we have regular group team coaching for all of us, please? And I'm like, okay, yeah, that's brilliant. No problem.
00:15:13
Speaker
But very intentional, two years ago, you know, very intentional of building relationships at their level using their language. And I think... I always recommend I've posted a few times on LinkedIn, just anyone who's kind of coaching in this region is is I would recommend erhad the book.
00:15:31
Speaker
It gives a great understanding. And even just using that word for clients, it's like the barriers go down to like, oh, you understand my culture and you're accepting and respecting it.
00:15:42
Speaker
And you're like, now we can connect, you know. I love this. what ah What I'm getting from what you're saying here is your ability as a coach and the importance for all of us to align our language to the language of the person. And when I say language, it's not Arabic language.
00:16:03
Speaker
It's the cultural language. It's the mindset language that that person has and being be able to understand where is this but this person coming from?
00:16:14
Speaker
what What are the the the nuances, the the places where we are going to connect, where we are going to meet, and we are going to build trust and safety, and there will be an openness to the person. and ah ah Fascinating there. So thank you for thank you for that for that particular particular word. And thank you for this idea of um adapting and flexing your style to meet the client where the client is.
Challenges in Coaching Across Cultures
00:16:45
Speaker
What is most challenging working with this culture?
00:16:54
Speaker
it it What I found personally is is building, the most the most challenging is is building that relationship so you can get honest reflections.
00:17:09
Speaker
So honest reflections from the client. without judgment, without their perceive perceived judgment of me. And that's why i mentioned like two years, you know, of being here consistently.
00:17:22
Speaker
And I do find that now, on the flip side, because we are in this region, but Dubai is very unique.
00:17:33
Speaker
With 80 to 90% expatriates, I would say a lot of my clients, my personal clients outside of my work, are Westerners, US, UK, Ireland, Europe, Australia, you know kind of that sort.
00:17:50
Speaker
and And the medium of English is also there. And I think that's the all the different languages here and how to learn how to be very clear and concise with your questioning is a key because people's ability for English language, if it's second language,
00:18:09
Speaker
you know, and they're not maybe as practiced is um is one thing I've learned how to, especially with my Irish accent, I put on my best international voice, which I have right now for you.
00:18:23
Speaker
Thank you. Those two key challenges is building up those trusting relationships so you can get honest reflections from the kind of client. yeah and And then the use of my language.
00:18:36
Speaker
to help kind of spark that inquiry, that reflective thinking, and and the to lead to meaningful kind of answers from the client.
00:18:47
Speaker
I'm assuming that you always coach in English. ah but Yes. Okay, good. yeah yeah so Yeah. So it's interesting that it's not just you working with with the Muslim and Arabic population, but it is also that you...
00:19:04
Speaker
coming from Ireland and being a Western has a yeah um I bet that has a huge impact in the relationship that you have in how the client is perceiving you ah as as the coach in the hierarchical society.
00:19:19
Speaker
So many little nuances there. What has been most rewarding about this experience, Rory?
The Power of Trust in Coaching
00:19:28
Speaker
And personally, there's two elements, but within the the kind of the region and with my colleagues is actually having those relationships where now there's, I would say, consistent desire to have coaching conversations with me, where you get honest reflections, which now kind of you have those kind of light bulb moments for them and then they make forward action.
00:19:55
Speaker
um most importantly, they get better. You know, and and once they feel that, then you kind of, they learn that process, but they're always willing to go out of the way and just seek you out. And I've noticed you, I think maybe you'd notice this is that when you kind of are more coach-like, you can you can really sense when someone stops you in passing, if they're looking for Rory the coach or not.
00:20:23
Speaker
then You're like, okay, okay coach hat on. What's going on? What's on your mind? Because this is another fascinating ah aspect of your story because you are also another layer of this story here is that you are an internal coach. You're working within an organization and your clients are part of the system that you that you are there all the time. So this this is another another layer of the relationship here.
00:20:54
Speaker
ah A final question that I have for you here, Rory, because unfortunately we're we're we're going to have to close our conversation here. And of course, you're going to come back for sure. ah here were like Having this experience of coaching clients in this particular culture, how has that...
Coaching's Universal Human Connection
00:21:15
Speaker
how has that
00:21:18
Speaker
helped you in your development as a coach and in the approach that you have, regardless of the client that is in front of you? I think there's two things. You you paraphrased it and perfectly, and I'd kind of forgotten some of those areas of the and coaching components, you know, i mean, the competencies, sorry, of using the language.
00:21:39
Speaker
to meet the client where they're at. and and That's a key one. and Adapting, where you word which is a better word, flexing my style. And then I think that those are the key ones. But what I've really, really learned and feel actually more so is that coaching as a like a kind of person-centered process is like you do take away the layers of differences.
00:22:09
Speaker
and and you're just two people and what's around you know we know what's you know around in in particularly in this region, you feel it. And you just you just you're coaching someone and you're just connected with them and they believe you're here for them and you're supporting them and you're their trust and there's alignment.
00:22:29
Speaker
And you just, you break away all the like layers of differences and you're just two humans connecting and it is beautiful. And I know, like but I think we all feel that as coaches in certain sessions.
00:22:40
Speaker
that just kind of flow state, it's kind of like a dance, you know, you're just moving together, synchronized, and it's one of the most beautiful things. And for me, the it's it's very good for me because i'm as I'm trying kind of evolving in my career out of teaching into kind of leadership,
00:22:58
Speaker
I miss that that connection and that dance in a lesson where you're flowing with the kids on a journey of learning through like your lesson and there's an outcome, you know, there's there's always moving forward. That's what education is, is moving kids forward and coaching is the same. So I'm very lucky that the biggest joy I had in my classroom is actually pretty much the same and in a coaching conversation.
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, listeners, i hope that you just paid attention to this last bit of piece that Rory gave us here. This idea that coaching, when we are connecting with our clients, it breaks the barriers.
00:23:38
Speaker
With all of these labels that we tend to create in our in our society, in our human adventure here, all of them, all of them, all of a sudden, they are not, a not not important. The importance is of the human to human connection, regardless of the background, regardless of where we come from, regardless of our experience, past experiences.
Conclusion and Farewell
00:24:02
Speaker
It's the coach and the client connecting in partnership. Wow, Rory, you made my day just just by that. So Rory, thank you so much for being here. And as I said, we are going to bring you back because you have such rich experience there.
00:24:19
Speaker
I think that we can all learn from you. So thank you for being here, everyone. Thank you for listening. Don't forget to subscribe and share this episode with others. And i will see you next time. Take care.
00:24:31
Speaker
Thank you.