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ABLE Voices Ep 83: Tara Allen
12 Plays5 months ago
We are inviting disabled artists and arts educators to be guests and guest hosts on ABLE Voices. Today's guest, and our next guest host, is Tara Allen.
Tara Allen (she/her) identifies as a queer, neurodivergent, and disabled music psychologist, music educator, advocate, and bass clarinetist. She holds a BM in instrumental music education with concentrations in instrumental wind band and bass clarinet from the Crane School of Music (2021), and an MA in psychology of music from the University of Sheffield (2022). Her master’s thesis, “The Bees Are Too Loud!: ADHD’ers Sound Preferences as an Aid Daily Task Completion" focused on how ADHD’ers used sound and/or music to help cope with completion of mundane tasks, and the combined social hardships. Her research areas of interest are: neurodivergence and music perception/cognition, learning, processing, behavior, and accessible music education. She has been advocating for neurodivergent and disabled musicians through a variety of platforms since 2020. She has a podcast, Breaking the Third Wall in Music, that invites disabled and/or neurodivergent musicians to discuss disability topics in the music scene. She has also spoken on the The Brave New Sound and Marching Arts Education. She has also given talks at universities, conferences, and organizations about neurodivergence. Lastly, she is a bass clarinetist and active performer in a variety of contemporary, classical, and popular music ensembles.
The ABLE Voices podcast is produced and edited by BIAAE Operations Coordinator, Daniel Martinez del Campo. The introduction music was written by Kai Levin and the ending song was written by Sebastian Batista. Kai and Sebastian are students in the Arts Education Programs at the Berklee Institute for Accessible Arts Education.
For more information about our programs visit us at https://college.berklee.edu/BIAAE
Follow us for more weekly updates at:
Instagram: @BIAAE
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BIAAE
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Host Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Music
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to the Able Voices Podcast.
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm Dr. Rhoda Bernard, founding managing director of the Berklee Institute for Accessible Arts Education and the assistant chair of the Music Education Department at Berklee College of Music.
00:00:27
Speaker
And I am proud to present this podcast featuring disabled artists and arts educators.
00:00:33
Speaker
We are inviting disabled artists to be guest hosts for the Able Voices Podcast.
00:00:37
Speaker
Our next guest host and today's guest is Tara Allen.
Tara Allen's Background and Podcast
00:00:42
Speaker
Tara Allen, she, her, identifies as a queer, neurodivergent, and disabled music psychologist, music educator, advocate, and bass clarinetist.
00:00:55
Speaker
She holds a BM in instrumental music education with concentrations in instrumental wind band and bass clarinet from the Crane School of Music,
00:01:05
Speaker
and an MA in Psychology of Music from the University of Sheffield.
00:01:09
Speaker
Her master's thesis, The Bees Are Too Loud, ADHDers Sound Preferences as an Aid Daily Task Completion, focused on how ADHDers use sound and or music to help cope with completion of mundane tasks and the combined social hardships.
00:01:29
Speaker
Her research areas of interest are neurodivergent and music perception and cognition,
00:01:35
Speaker
learning, processing, behavior, and accessible music education.
00:01:41
Speaker
She has been advocating for neurodivergent and disabled musicians through a variety of platforms since 2020.
00:01:48
Speaker
She has a podcast, Breaking the Third Wall in Music, that invites disabled and or neurodivergent musicians to discuss disability topics in the music scene.
00:01:59
Speaker
She has spoken on the Brave New Sound and Marching Arts Education.
00:02:03
Speaker
She has also given talks at universities, conferences, and organizations about neurodivergence.
00:02:09
Speaker
Lastly, she is a bass clarinetist and an active performer in a variety of contemporary, classical, and popular musical ensembles.
00:02:18
Speaker
Welcome, Tara.
00:02:19
Speaker
We're delighted to have you as our next guest host of the Able Voices podcast.
00:02:24
Speaker
Awesome.
00:02:25
Speaker
Thank you so much, Rhoda.
00:02:26
Speaker
I'm so glad to be here to facilitate and have this discussion today.
00:02:30
Speaker
Terrific.
00:02:31
Speaker
I'd like to start off by asking you to tell us your story as an artist.
00:02:35
Speaker
How did you get started as an artist and how did you get to where you are today?
Musical Journey and Influences
00:02:40
Speaker
So very interestingly, I was lucky in the sense that my dad's family is very musical.
00:02:45
Speaker
So I grew up with my grandfather and my dad and that family always playing guitar.
00:02:51
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So they're all guitar players.
00:02:53
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None of them could read music, which is totally okay.
00:02:56
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And they all learned music by ear.
00:02:57
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So I kind of grew up surrounded in music in that way.
00:03:02
Speaker
And it kind of had inspired me to want to do it myself.
00:03:05
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And then when I started taking music classes in elementary school, I was like, oh, my goodness, I really love this.
00:03:10
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When I was in second grade, I joined choir.
00:03:14
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I loved that.
00:03:15
Speaker
My mom makes some funny, fond memories of me being like, oh, my goodness, it was atrocious, but it was cute.
00:03:21
Speaker
So it was worth it.
00:03:25
Speaker
I like that.
00:03:25
Speaker
It was atrocious.
00:03:26
Speaker
It was cute.
00:03:27
Speaker
And it was worth it.
00:03:28
Speaker
Yes.
00:03:30
Speaker
And then in third grade, I remember my high school band director kind of being kind of coming in for this instrumental petting zoo.
00:03:39
Speaker
So my high school band director, Mike Nestoriak, and then also what would come to be my elementary band
00:03:45
Speaker
music teacher Jolie Yeddo, you know, they were like, hey, here's all these musical instruments.
00:03:50
Speaker
And I was like, oh my goodness, I really want to play one of those.
00:03:53
Speaker
That looks so fun.
00:03:54
Speaker
And I remember essentially sitting in the music room and with other students.
00:03:59
Speaker
My three top choices were the trombone, the saxophone, and the clarinet.
00:04:04
Speaker
I remember thinking the trombone was so fun.
00:04:06
Speaker
So it was definitely like my second top choice.
00:04:09
Speaker
I was like, this is so fun.
00:04:10
Speaker
This slide, I love this.
00:04:12
Speaker
The saxophone, I immediately was like, hmm.
00:04:15
Speaker
Don't know about this one.
00:04:17
Speaker
And then I decided and I landed on the clarinet.
00:04:20
Speaker
I just, I just liked how it sounded.
00:04:23
Speaker
Within about a month or two of playing the regular clarinet, I again met my, what eventually became my high school band director, Mike Nestoriak.
00:04:32
Speaker
And
00:04:33
Speaker
Him and Miss Yetto basically had a conversation of like, she should play the bass clarinet.
00:04:38
Speaker
This is like in fourth grade.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I remember them bringing it to me and me being, wow, this thing is bigger than me.
00:04:45
Speaker
And I was just a tiny little fourth grader with her bass clarinet.
00:04:49
Speaker
And I remember honking it and going, this is the best thing ever.
00:04:51
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I want to play this immediately.
00:04:53
Speaker
And I switched over to bass clarinet.
00:04:56
Speaker
And I can say I haven't touched a regular clarinet since then.
00:05:00
Speaker
Bass clarinet is definitely my main instrument.
00:05:02
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And then after that, I kind of just did years of elementary, middle school and high school bands.
00:05:07
Speaker
So I played at, I did a NISMA solo every single year.
00:05:11
Speaker
I think I did like three level sixes at one point.
00:05:15
Speaker
I did all types of like performing.
00:05:17
Speaker
I played in the community bands.
00:05:18
Speaker
I played in the Plattsburgh.
00:05:21
Speaker
Ah, so the Plattsburgh State University has, like, a wind ensemble.
00:05:24
Speaker
I played in that when I was in high school.
00:05:26
Speaker
I played in Strawhatter's Community Band.
00:05:28
Speaker
I was always playing in, like, area all-state and, like, all types of state-level ensembles.
00:05:33
Speaker
One in particular that I remember in middle school, when I made area all-state for middle school for the first time, I was just, like...
00:05:40
Speaker
I had, we played the piece Foundry by John Mackey.
00:05:44
Speaker
And I remember that was the moment that I said, I want to do this forever.
00:05:48
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And I did, obviously, I wouldn't be here talking otherwise.
00:05:52
Speaker
So that piece for me is like very influential.
00:05:55
Speaker
And yeah, so when I was at the end of high school, I was preparing, auditioning for the Crane School of Music.
00:06:01
Speaker
I got into Crane.
00:06:02
Speaker
They lent me a bass clarinet, which is great because I really couldn't afford one.
00:06:06
Speaker
And then I went to Crane and did my bachelor's in music education.
00:06:11
Speaker
And it's very interesting because saying that a lot of people would anticipate that I immediately was going to go and be a music teacher, which I did for a while.
00:06:19
Speaker
But at the end, I was like, I love this, but this doesn't feel entirely like what I want to do, like maybe partially, but not entirely.
00:06:26
Speaker
And at the end of my journey at Crane, I was kind of like, music therapy, question mark?
Transition to Music Psychology
00:06:33
Speaker
And I talked to the music therapist that was on campus, and I was like, well, not quite.
00:06:37
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Not quite there.
00:06:39
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Not entirely.
00:06:39
Speaker
It's really funny.
00:06:41
Speaker
After I had this conversation with her, I went through the process of looking through some of my really old books and
00:06:49
Speaker
And I realized I had a book called The Musical Mind by John A. Slobeta, which is an absolute music psychology classic.
00:06:57
Speaker
I know that book.
00:06:57
Speaker
I studied it.
00:06:58
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It's a fabulous book.
00:06:59
Speaker
It's a beautiful book recommended to literally anyone who's starting off in music psychology.
00:07:05
Speaker
And I purchased that book when I was 11 at our local bookstore and I never read it.
00:07:11
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I pulled it out of my closet and I was like, what is this?
00:07:13
Speaker
And then I read the whole book top to bottom.
00:07:16
Speaker
I was like, whatever this guy's doing, I want to do this.
00:07:20
Speaker
And then that was when I connected with bass clarinetist Sarah Watts, who works at the University of Sheffield, who's also a bass clarinetist.
00:07:28
Speaker
And she's like, we have a music psychology program.
00:07:32
Speaker
And I was like, oh, that sounds great.
00:07:35
Speaker
So I went there, got accepted, and I studied music psychology at the University of Sheffield.
00:07:41
Speaker
During my time there, I also played in Sarah's Bass Clarnet Ensemble and a variety of other ensembles in the UK.
00:07:47
Speaker
And I also taught music while I was studying and after I studied.
00:07:51
Speaker
So I taught GCSE music, primary and secondary music for three years, the three years that I was there.
00:07:59
Speaker
And then I was kind of like, well, it's kind of reaching the end of my visa.
00:08:02
Speaker
What do I do?
00:08:04
Speaker
And then I saw this job posting that I currently work at on a Discord server, hilariously enough.
00:08:10
Speaker
And I went, ah, that looks like something I would do.
00:08:13
Speaker
And now I work at Berkeley.
00:08:15
Speaker
So it's definitely been quite a bit of a journey as an artist, as a musician, and just all of those musical identities that I have for sure.
00:08:24
Speaker
So thank you for that fabulous story.
00:08:29
Speaker
Just to underscore something that I love about it, it was one of these, it feels like you had a series of these kinds of moments where you encountered something like, hey, I want to do that.
00:08:42
Speaker
So there's something really powerful about knowing that.
00:08:46
Speaker
Also, there's something really powerful of like, I'm doing this thing, in this case for you, it was teaching, that is
00:08:55
Speaker
like lights some of the light bulbs, but not all of them.
00:09:00
Speaker
Like, okay, I feel a connection partially, but I don't feel fully engaged, fulfilled, activated, optimalized, whatever word we want to use, right?
00:09:12
Speaker
And to know that and say,
00:09:15
Speaker
okay, this is cool for now, but this is not the thing.
00:09:17
Speaker
And I'm going to figure out what the thing is.
00:09:19
Speaker
I think there's a really powerful experience that a lot of people don't have.
00:09:24
Speaker
So I think that's really great.
00:09:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
And I think that a lot of folks, when they are in that process of that, they kind of push it down to the ground and they ignore it.
00:09:32
Speaker
And they're like, I'm just going to keep doing this thing.
00:09:34
Speaker
And I always tell people, like, if you have a feeling, it's probably for a reason.
00:09:40
Speaker
And yeah,
00:09:42
Speaker
It's worth the risk in a lot of cases because it could lead you to something really great.
00:09:46
Speaker
I mean, my instance is working at Berkeley.
00:09:48
Speaker
I never thought in a million years that would happen, but I just kept taking risks and you never know until you do so.
00:09:56
Speaker
Awesome.
00:09:57
Speaker
So next question.
00:09:59
Speaker
Can you talk about your experiences as a disabled and neurodivergent artist?
Experiences as a Disabled Artist
00:10:06
Speaker
Of course, so I've had a lot of both positive and negative experiences.
00:10:11
Speaker
Some of the positive experiences, I'll speak to that first.
00:10:15
Speaker
I think like working at Berkeley has been a part of that big positive experience.
00:10:20
Speaker
I get to work with neurodivergent students
00:10:23
Speaker
who are also artists, and I can help guide them in ways that I never received.
00:10:28
Speaker
So I experienced that as like a very positive thing.
00:10:32
Speaker
I also think now reaching a point of five years of diagnoses that I...
00:10:38
Speaker
I feel a sense of pride and identity and also like a sense of like the ability to share with my community about these experiences as an artist.
00:10:49
Speaker
So for instance, like coming up, I'll be speaking with the International Clarinet Association about neurodivergence and neurodivergent clarinet players, which is something I would have never imagined in a million years.
00:11:01
Speaker
So that's very positive for sure.
00:11:04
Speaker
Some other positive experiences that I think about is like
00:11:06
Speaker
I don't want to say my neurodivergence is a superpower because I think that that's a mildly ableist mindset.
00:11:14
Speaker
Thanks for saying that.
00:11:16
Speaker
But it does give me skills that other people don't have, which, you know, I can acknowledge for sure, but it's not a superpower.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:25
Speaker
You know, like, for instance, I have a photographic memory.
00:11:29
Speaker
So, like, if I lose my music, in some cases, I can kind of see it in my head, right?
00:11:34
Speaker
You know, there are other negatives in the sense of, like, auditory processing sometimes is not the best.
00:11:40
Speaker
Sometimes my finger dexterity isn't as fast as my colleagues when I'm performing or, like, when I'm reading.
00:11:47
Speaker
So it's really dependent on the situation and a variety of things.
00:11:51
Speaker
And, you know, I acknowledge...
00:11:52
Speaker
skills and that there are some things that I might struggle with.
00:11:56
Speaker
More so in the negative aspects, like it's difficult because a lot of folks whom are of other marginalized identities, they get late diagnosed.
00:12:06
Speaker
I wasn't diagnosed or at least didn't start any diagnosis process until I was 21.
00:12:10
Speaker
So I went through the majority of my undergraduate not knowing.
00:12:14
Speaker
And because of that, there was no support services because a diagnosis was required for this support service, right?
00:12:20
Speaker
So I didn't really receive the help that I needed, but also in that sense, I also experienced a lot of discrimination from my professors, my colleagues, and a variety of other things because there's just no knowledge.
00:12:33
Speaker
And even when I was diagnosed,
00:12:35
Speaker
That was something that still continued because the music industry itself doesn't have enough knowledge about disabled artists and neurodivergent artists or they don't know about identity and culture or the personal lived experiences of people with these identities.
00:12:51
Speaker
And like, you know, there's a lot that I can think about.
00:12:53
Speaker
Like I've had altercations with professors where I was told, quote, someone like you will never be a good music teacher.
00:12:59
Speaker
I was told this as a part of my mentoring and training.
00:13:04
Speaker
You know, there's just like a variety of things that I've been told over my life through that process, both prior to diagnosis and after diagnosis.
00:13:12
Speaker
But I think the difference now is that I'm very prideful of my identity.
00:13:16
Speaker
When these instances occur, I kind of have that courage to basically be like, you're wrong.
00:13:23
Speaker
You are just incorrect.
00:13:25
Speaker
And you're also now in a job where you are actively working to change that.
00:13:33
Speaker
in one institution and more broadly, which is- 100%.
00:13:37
Speaker
And, you know, I always tell other disabled neurodivergent musicians and folks like, it cannot get better unless you say something or you speak out about it, you know?
00:13:49
Speaker
neurotypical and or holistic non-disabled perceptions of our identities and things is not up to them it's up to ourselves and so is our own narratives and i think that that's really important especially as an artist when we work in such a creative industry right like our music and our artistry is going to look different the way i'm going to stim when i perform i used to get mocked for that i will stim when i perform openly
00:14:14
Speaker
I perceive music differently because of my neurodivergence.
00:14:20
Speaker
And I think that those are different ways of adding to that creative industry.
00:14:25
Speaker
It's not something to be frowned upon.
00:14:27
Speaker
It's something to be cherished and accepted, but also to be prideful of.
00:14:31
Speaker
Thank you for that.
00:14:32
Speaker
Beautiful.
00:14:34
Speaker
So I had a separate question about your education, but you answered that beautifully in your journey.
00:14:40
Speaker
So now we get to go to the music that you have to share with us.
00:14:43
Speaker
Can you tell us about what we're going to hear?
00:14:45
Speaker
Yeah, of course.
00:14:47
Speaker
So this piece of music that I wrote, I'm not much of a composer, but sometimes I do like writing music about my neurodivergent experiences because sometimes it's actually...
00:14:56
Speaker
Really difficult to explain in words what those experiences are like.
00:15:00
Speaker
This piece of music is called Help, Where's the Way Out?
00:15:02
Speaker
It's a piece of music that was actually written during the early processes of my diagnosis with complex PTSD.
00:15:09
Speaker
At the time, I didn't really understand what was going on.
00:15:13
Speaker
And when I was being referred for a diagnosis, I didn't know how to explain it to a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
00:15:19
Speaker
And the piece of music basically portrays what that internal head experience is like.
00:15:25
Speaker
So you can kind of, throughout the piece, it kind of sounds like my heart is beating.
00:15:29
Speaker
You can kind of hear the thought that is reoccurring, like what has triggered the sensation to occur.
00:15:36
Speaker
You can kind of hear it as like a reoccurring motif.
00:15:39
Speaker
And throughout the song, what happens is, is that it essentially, you'll hear it kind of like fluctuate where like things will come in, but then it'll come back.
00:15:47
Speaker
And you'll hear parts of it kind of like tip off or like dissociate out.
00:15:52
Speaker
It's kind of like in an evolving of like remembering the thing.
00:15:56
Speaker
The bass clarinet part is actually me playing.
00:15:59
Speaker
And it's essentially a portrayal of like my emotions and the cognition that I'm experiencing while this episode is occurring.
00:16:08
Speaker
So I kind of see it as like a auditory way of explaining something that is very difficult to explain to others in words because everyone's experience with it is very different.
00:16:21
Speaker
Thank you for that.
00:16:22
Speaker
So tell us again the title.
00:16:25
Speaker
It's called Help, Where's the Way Out?
00:16:28
Speaker
So let's take a moment and listen to help.
00:16:30
Speaker
Where's the way out?
00:16:56
Speaker
Thank you.
00:17:31
Speaker
Bye.
Research on Neurodivergent Use of Music
00:17:44
Speaker
So Tara, you've talked about your training as a music psychologist all the way back to when you were 11 and picked up this book that people don't usually read until grad school.
00:17:55
Speaker
Can you tell us about the research that you're doing?
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, of course.
00:17:58
Speaker
So I guess I should start from the beginning, early stages of my relationship with research and music psychology that was subconscious that I didn't realize was happening.
00:18:09
Speaker
So when I was in my undergraduate, I actually did a lot of research about dyslexia.
00:18:13
Speaker
and body percussion and phonetics and language and primarily how that connects in the elementary music classroom.
00:18:22
Speaker
So I did a lot of research about how music educators can actually use music and sound to connect to phonetics in the classrooms to help dyslexic learners in both the sense of physical movement and then also trying to think of the word of like
00:18:40
Speaker
pronunciation and phonetics, which can be very difficult for dyslexic learners.
00:18:44
Speaker
There's a lot of misconceptions about dyslexia.
00:18:47
Speaker
One of them is definitely like dyslexia is just a reading based disability, but in a lot of cases it's not.
00:18:53
Speaker
It is sensory and fine motor skills as well.
00:18:57
Speaker
So in this case,
00:18:58
Speaker
This type of music education actually emphasizes all of those aspects of dyslexia and struggle that especially a child might be struggling with.
00:19:07
Speaker
I did a lot of research and I also presented at NAFME with a poster about this project.
00:19:12
Speaker
So I studied mostly like the cognitive aspects and how this can be applied in the classroom.
00:19:17
Speaker
When I went to the University of Sheffield, as I kind of alluded earlier, I realized, yes, I definitely wanted my niche area to be neurodivergence and music research.
00:19:29
Speaker
And I was very interested.
00:19:30
Speaker
So when I was a kid, as I said, I grew up in a family of just all neurodivergent people.
00:19:35
Speaker
So I was very interested in learning and understanding, you know, from what I perceived as a child and even into my young adult life was
00:19:43
Speaker
Why does my family just randomly put on music when they're doing tasks, but most people find that overstimulating?
00:19:50
Speaker
Why is that?
00:19:51
Speaker
And I remember talking to some of my family members and they were like, oh, I cannot do a task without having music on.
00:19:59
Speaker
And I was like, hmm.
00:20:01
Speaker
Why is that happening?
00:20:02
Speaker
A lot of the research that I found was basically, ah, the dopamine theory.
00:20:06
Speaker
Essentially, the brain is not producing enough dopamine, but because music is a multisensory activity, even if you're just listening, it is actually creating and providing dopamine for the brain, which then makes the person feel motivated to do the task.
00:20:20
Speaker
But the interesting part about my research, aside from that cognition, was that
00:20:24
Speaker
A lot of participants, so I had about 50 participants in a variety of backgrounds, and they were like, actually, music also helps me unmask in these situations.
00:20:37
Speaker
Because a big structure of what's happening is in these tasks is society's perception of me having to do the task in a specific way within a specific amount of time.
00:20:47
Speaker
That's really difficult for me to cope with.
00:20:49
Speaker
And that's like adding a layer of stress that is making it difficult for me to complete this task.
00:20:54
Speaker
But when I put on the music, it's just me and the music and I can just unmask and take my time, basically.
00:21:01
Speaker
So for them, it was also a social relief.
00:21:04
Speaker
in a lot of cases.
00:21:06
Speaker
And a lot of them were like, I didn't realize I was doing this until I took this survey.
00:21:10
Speaker
And wow, I do do this.
00:21:13
Speaker
And a lot of them talked about like specific types of noises.
00:21:16
Speaker
So it's really important to know that sound preference is a really important thing.
00:21:20
Speaker
A lot of people are like, oh, classical music.
00:21:23
Speaker
Nah, trash.
00:21:25
Speaker
I love classical music, but no.
00:21:28
Speaker
A lot of the music psychology research actually supports and emphasizes sound preference.
00:21:33
Speaker
And there's a lot of reasons.
00:21:34
Speaker
The biggest one being like our social cognition with the music itself.
00:21:39
Speaker
It creates memories and emotions that then connects to this new thing that you're doing.
00:21:44
Speaker
So in a lot of cases, for instance, like I had a lot of people tell me, and this is when I say some of the research...
00:21:51
Speaker
Some of the research, they were like, white noise only helps.
00:21:55
Speaker
But then when I actually asked participants about white noise or classical music, they said, I find it understimulated and boring.
00:22:02
Speaker
One of the participants even said, white noise physically hurts me.
00:22:07
Speaker
I cannot listen to it.
00:22:09
Speaker
You know, and actually hearing their perspective on that and them saying, I only use this specific kind of music when I'm doing this specific task because X, Y, Z.
00:22:19
Speaker
was really important, actually.
00:22:21
Speaker
And this is when we talk about those perspectives of research and music psychology not including or asking additional questions rather than just, here's the data.
00:22:33
Speaker
But you can't just be like, here's the data, because then you're actually leaving out the lived experiences of those people that emphasize onto the research.
00:22:41
Speaker
Exactly.
00:22:42
Speaker
I couldn't have said that better.
00:22:43
Speaker
That's a problem not just with research, but a big problem in many, many fields.
00:22:48
Speaker
Awesome.
00:22:48
Speaker
Wow.
Future Research Interests
00:22:50
Speaker
So is there more you want to say about that?
00:22:52
Speaker
But wow, you get a lot to think about.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:56
Speaker
I mean, I'm currently in the process of starting more projects.
00:23:00
Speaker
You're getting to my next question, which I love.
00:23:02
Speaker
You go.
00:23:04
Speaker
So I am interested at some point in pursuing a PhD.
00:23:08
Speaker
I have some topic ideas.
00:23:09
Speaker
Like I know that like I'm very interested in autism, autistic folks and music perception and you specifically.
00:23:19
Speaker
So like, for instance, like my top contender for a research project at the moment is how and why do autistic people use music and sound to help immerse themselves into immersive daydreaming states that help them cope with social stress?
00:23:37
Speaker
You know, and there's a lot of cases where I've spoken to autistic people where they go, you know, I've brought this up and they go.
00:23:43
Speaker
Oh my goodness, I didn't realize that when I start listening to music, I do enter an immersive daydream state.
00:23:49
Speaker
Why is that?
00:23:50
Speaker
Why do I do that?
00:23:51
Speaker
You know, and I'm like, huh, I don't know either.
00:23:54
Speaker
But as a music psychologist, I'm actually very curious as to why that happens.
00:23:58
Speaker
That's definitely one of my top choices.
00:24:00
Speaker
And I think that it's very niche enough.
00:24:03
Speaker
The other one is definitely like, I'm very interested in psychoacoustics and cognition.
00:24:08
Speaker
So I'm very interested in the timbral rhythmic and perceptual differences of neurodivergent and sometimes otherwise autistic folks.
00:24:16
Speaker
And I want to say I don't want to use them synonymously, just because they're not synonymous terms.
00:24:21
Speaker
But yeah, I'm very interested in a lot of the cognitive behavioral stuff for sure.
00:24:26
Speaker
Awesome.
00:24:28
Speaker
Very interesting.
00:24:29
Speaker
And
00:24:30
Speaker
I can see how the current interests that you have relate to what you were doing in your master's program.
00:24:36
Speaker
Very, very cool.
00:24:38
Speaker
So my last question for you, you've alluded to some of this already, but I want to take a moment.
Advice for Disabled Artists
00:24:44
Speaker
What advice would you give to a disabled artist?
00:24:48
Speaker
I would say...
00:24:50
Speaker
Reach out to any resource that you can that you know is led by disabled and neurodivergent people.
00:24:55
Speaker
I think getting yourself in those spaces, even if you don't have a diagnosis, is so important because those are the people at the end of the day that will always support you, encourage you on.
00:25:04
Speaker
The second thing that I say is like, take it easy.
00:25:09
Speaker
Every day is one day.
00:25:11
Speaker
And especially as people who experience burnout more chronically, make sure that you're taking time for yourself.
00:25:17
Speaker
And, you know, especially as artists and as musicians, like that can be really difficult because we have grind culture.
00:25:24
Speaker
Make sure that you're taking time for yourself.
00:25:26
Speaker
Like that is so important because you cannot perform at your best if you don't feel okay.
00:25:30
Speaker
It's something that we as disabled people have to think about more so.
00:25:35
Speaker
Just because we burn out quicker due to our traits and that kind of thing.
00:25:40
Speaker
Also, just as I said, that community aspect is so important because building identity can really help with that as well and having that community.
00:25:50
Speaker
And I guess the last piece of advice I would give is never let someone tell you you can't do something.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yay!
00:25:56
Speaker
They're just not correct.
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:25:59
Speaker
Do what you want to do because you want to do it.
00:26:02
Speaker
And if you have to find a means that's not that person, then do it.
00:26:06
Speaker
Because in a lot of cases, it's worth the risk.
00:26:08
Speaker
In a lot of cases, they just, they don't have enough knowledge to know how to support you through that.
00:26:13
Speaker
But there are people that will.
00:26:15
Speaker
And I think that that's like really important to know.
00:26:19
Speaker
Feels bad now, but it will get better.
00:26:21
Speaker
But you just have to keep pushing.
00:26:23
Speaker
Thank you for that.
00:26:24
Speaker
Really great advice.
00:26:26
Speaker
Wow.
00:26:27
Speaker
And what I love about your advice is that you embody it, your journey.
00:26:31
Speaker
And but you took that advice, lived that advice and still are, which is a beautiful thing to see.
00:26:38
Speaker
Another beautiful thing to see is that we're going to have Tara back as a guest host for upcoming episodes.
00:26:44
Speaker
So I want to thank you, Tara, for your time with us today.
00:26:47
Speaker
And we are really looking forward to the upcoming episodes when you will be the guest host.
00:26:53
Speaker
Awesome.
00:26:53
Speaker
Thank you so much, Rhoda.
00:26:54
Speaker
I definitely look forward to guest hosting other disabled and neurodivergent artists on this podcast.
00:27:00
Speaker
And I think that this has just been great to come and talk.
00:27:02
Speaker
So thank you again so much, Rhoda.
00:27:04
Speaker
My great pleasure.
Podcast Credits
00:27:14
Speaker
Able Voices is a production of the Berkeley Institute for Accessible Arts Education, led by me, Dr. Rhoda Bernard, the founding managing director.
00:27:23
Speaker
It is produced by Daniel Martinez del Campo.
00:27:26
Speaker
The intro music is by Kai Levin, and our closing song is by Sebastian Batista.
00:27:32
Speaker
Kai and Sebastian are students in the arts education programs at the Berkeley Institute for Accessible Arts Education.
00:27:39
Speaker
If you would like to learn more about our work, find us online at berkeley.edu slash B-I-A-A-E or email us at B-I-A-A-E at berkeley, that's L-E-E dot E-D-U.