Transcript
Speaker: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Able Voices Podcast. I'm Dr. Rhoda Bernard, founding managing director of the Berklee Institute for Accessible Arts Education and the assistant chair of the music education department at Berklee College of Music.
Speaker: And I am proud to present this podcast featuring disabled artists and arts educators. We are inviting artists with disabilities to be guest hosts for the Able Voices Podcast.
Speaker: Today, you'll meet our next guest host, Carly Carr Rieger. Carr Rieger is a chronically ill and disabled artist, writer, curator, and advocate from Ann Arbor, Michigan.
Speaker: They utilize porcelain and installation artworks to express inner feelings and narratives of disability. Rieger has organized several important exhibitions for artists with disabilities through the National Council on Education for the Ceramic Arts, including Crip Clay in Cincinnati, Ohio in 2023,
Speaker: and Outpour in Detroit, Michigan in 2026. Rieger is also the recipient of the 2024 Midwest Artists with Disabilities Award.
Speaker: They hold an MA in Disability Studies from the City University of New York and are currently pursuing an MFA in Studio Art from the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
Speaker: Both Rieger's artwork and career goals involve disability inclusion and rights. They are working to expand how the arts communities work with artists with disabilities and how the disability communities utilize art to express complex disabled ideas.
Speaker: Welcome to Able Voices podcast. We have Molly Green and we're very excited to have her here today. Again, my name is Carr um and I am doing a series of guest hosts here. So Molly Green is a ceramic sculptor and art educator currently in the MFA program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She received her Bachelor's of Science in Art from Miami University, Oxford, Ohio, in December 2023.
Speaker: While in Ohio, she taught ceramics at Queen City Clay in Cincinnati. Her practice ruminates on the context around acute and complex trauma, chronic illness and disability, and political social commentary.
Speaker: Welcome, Molly. And I'd like to start off by asking you to tell so your story as an artist. How did you start as an artist and how did you get to where you are today? So i think I've always kind art-driven, even when I was younger.
Speaker: But I didn't really see myself and ah as an artist until i kind of was halfway through undergrad, like getting my art education degree. But I've always kind of been seen as the more creative and visually driven person in my family.
Speaker: So even even throughout elementary, in high school. I probably went through all of the sports and didn't like any of them, but was always pushed to do something.
Speaker: And so I ended up doing piano for a good seven to eight years throughout high school. Before that, I used to do they had, like, these these opportunities to, like, draw a picture, and then your art teacher would, like, submit it to the, like, local art center, and you could get, like, free classes.
Speaker: And i would say, like My art teachers were a big influence, which I know I've heard from a lot of different people that that's kind of typical, like that you're kind of directed by the people you end up being taught by and supported by.
Speaker: but in elementary, i had a a teacher. Her name was Miss Paddock. And I was always like a really awkward kid. I like hated going to school. Like I would just shut down when i went to school.
Speaker: But she would always make comments like of how good of an artist I was and how I was going to be an artist, big artist when I grew up. And I was probably only in like third or fourth grade.
Speaker: And she would always like if I wasn't getting ready to like submit my drawing, um she'd be like, have you done this yet? Have you done this yet? And I ended up getting into those classes. And of course, that was like, I don't know, I didn't feel like good about it. I felt like, oh, crap, like I need to go to these places now because I was always like socially awkward. I didn't want to go But it ended up being really good for me. I took like drawing classes. i did take a ceramics class with this like cranky old man. And that was like my first introduction to ceramics.
Speaker: was probably in third or fourth grade. It was probably just like a week or two long class. And then i kind of like, I continued to take art classes in high school.
Speaker: Never really saw myself as an artist, but I was aware that people thought I was strong, like a strong artist. And, but I focused mostly on piano and music theory until even into like all through high school and into my um degree in undergrad.
Speaker: So yeah, and then that's kind of when things shifted into being an artist. I would say I it was like, I was interested art education mostly because i was interested in being a teacher and I knew that was an area that I was more interested in teaching.
Speaker: And so I did kind of apply for the art education degree without even thinking of myself as an artist. And when I started to take more studios and be mentored by different people,
Speaker: studio professors, then I started to kind of see a shift from something that's just like visually appealing to like more conceptual. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, that makes sense. And so then, um, where, whatever you're comfortable with, like, where does um your experiences with disability fit into the, that timeline?
Speaker: So I feel like Things really shifted right when I graduated from high school. So throughout high school, I was experiencing a lot of Crohn's-related symptoms without even knowing because it was kind of something that I was used to already. was i would constantly experience stomach pain throughout the day, and i would just like chug Pepto throughout the day. And I really didn't think anything of it. I thought it was more of just like an anxiety thing because my body is really reactive to how I'm feeling.
Speaker: And school was always something that even though I loved to learn, I hated going there. i was very uncomfortable with um just that environment growing up there and um my my mom is very like attentive as a parent and she's the one that like was like we need to get this checked out because it's not normal for you to be in pain all the time and I kind of was just like
Speaker: You're just being paranoid. Like, you're just a paranoid mom. And i decided, like, you know, might as well just go get checked out. And my first doctor, like, the doctor that diagnosed me was a great doctor. Like, I think still think she's probably the best doctor I've had.
Speaker: Like, I think pediatric doctors are just... really better in general. Like, they they actually care, like, about their patients.
Speaker: And she did some, like, tests that are kind of that came back, like, inconclusive, but she didn't just brush it off. She was like, you're experiencing symptoms and, like, you're experiencing them for a reason.
Speaker: and so she did more. We ended up doing a procedure to, like, see if there was anything... out of the ordinary, like in my intestines. And really didn't think anything of it. Like I didn't think anything was going to come back.
Speaker: And she did end up saying, she was like, you do have Crohn's disease ah in these two locations of your intestines. And i guess even like with that being said to me, I didn't really see the impact of it. I was just kind of like,
Speaker: Okay, how do we get rid of this? Like, but it's also, it's something that doesn't go away. And I was kind of just unaware, like uninformed of like what this would entail for the rest of my life.
Speaker: And so that what happened, I was diagnosed in I think I was doing testing in like 2018, but in 2019 is when I was kind of diagnosed and we were starting to look at treatment plans.
Speaker: And so that was also just a terrible time anyways, because that's when COVID started to like come into the U.S. Nobody knew what COVID was.
Speaker: You know, it was really scary. Like a lot of people were uninformed and just also it was new. And, you know, if you have like, if you're move immune compromised, then it was more serious, like considered more serious. serious So She didn't put me on the treatment plan at first because she was like, this is going to suppress your immune system.
Speaker: And with COVID happening right now and with limited like information on what's happening around COVID, she didn't want to put me more at risk.
Speaker: But then she was also like, if you don't get on a treatment plan, your Crohn's is going to get continually worse. And I was already at like a place where it was moderate to severe.
Speaker: And so like you want to act fast because if a treatment plan doesn't work, then you have to consider other solutions, other treatments.
Speaker: So was kind of like a back and forth. It was scary. We took COVID really seriously and we would wash, wipe off all of our groceries when we got them, spray our shoes off. We were like very like just anything that went outside, we like made sure was cleaned.
Speaker: And so the like thinking about going to like the hospital was like just crazy. like, freaky, like, going there when we were, like, quarantining really hardcore.
Speaker: um But, yeah, i I ended up getting, starting the treatment, and we were just really careful. And that was also when i graduated. I ended up graduating from high school 2020, and And i had already been taking college classes in high school.
Speaker: So I completed about a year of college, like before I even went into college. And i was used to the online because that's kind of what I mostly did in high school was online college classes.
Speaker: So that didn't affect me too much because I kind of just went into what I was already doing, just taking more college classes. But it was definitely like hard to navigate like a new illness.
Speaker: COVID was happening, and then also like freshly in college. I didn't even, like I don't think i decided on my major until probably maybe a semester or two into actually being in college.
Speaker: And then I also was like, if this is something i have to deal with forever, that's going to like affect the the decision I make and what degree I'm going to get. Because obviously I'm going to need some sort of like security right away. like It's not something... like I'm not like able to just play around and I have that flexibility that other people have when they get into college and they're trying to figure out what they want to do.
Speaker: So I was trying to be like strategic, like to do something I'm interested in, but also that has the security net that I need. So i was interested in being an artist, either like a musician or like a visual artist.
Speaker: And I saw like, first I saw our education as like And in between, like a good way to have security, but also for that area that I was most interested in.
Speaker: So I did that and it kind of transitioned into like, i'm I'm more serious about art. Like I feel like a professional artist and how am I going to be a professional artist and still have the security that I need?
Speaker: as a disabled person. Yeah. Yeah. And so we've talked a lot about like, I guess, like being within academia, to an extent of that's how you you kind of went from K through 12 into doing art into that.
Speaker: And could you tell us like more about like that experience? But I i also know that you've been like Queen City Clay is more of a community learning environment. um And so just more, if you could tell us more about like how you learn um in those environments and and kind of about those spaces and how they act differently.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess when i when I first went into like the art education program, I was still around a lot of like BFAs and people who were just going into visual art.
Speaker: And there was like a very clear difference between like the two areas. And even though I felt like I was kind of in both, like I was interested in being an artist, but also an educator, it seemed like if you were in one, it was just like your priorities were different. So like our education was mostly, um you were really focused on,
Speaker: the aspect of supporting students. Like, how are you going to be a good educator? And the art aspect was just like, basically a way to navigate that.
Speaker: And then your BFA was like, you were you were a dedicated artist and like, you need to just find a way to be that. And so they were just very different.
Speaker: And i always kind of felt like I was floating in between those two spaces and never really was set in one, especially in the beginning, like the first two years of um being in college.
Speaker: And it wasn't really until like I went into a ceramics class where I was like I was conflicted because I knew that I really wanted to be like a professional artist and that I was strong at it. Like once I got into ceramics, I was told like, you're good at this. Like this is something that you could really um do well in.
Speaker: And so I was conflicted because I knew that that would be a more difficult pathway as a disabled artist. There'd be less safety. But at that time, I didn't feel like set in our education. Like I didn't feel like a great teacher compared to other teachers. like well I wasn't as dedicated to that area as I felt like other people were in that program.
Speaker: And it's weird because now that I'm in this program as like a visual artist, i'm getting my MFA, i feel like almost like the opposite. Like I feel, i mean, I still feel the same dedication, but I also feel like i i am seeking out um our education again in the space of visual arts.
Speaker: because I feel like they are connected and people kind of separate them. And i guess that's what i'm I'm doing right now in my practice is like finding the in-between between these two parts of ah my career.
Speaker: How can I support my own practice while still being like a good educator and mentor? Because I feel like that's something that is lacking in a lot of like college facilities because our education isn't considered as like an important aspect just because it is seen as a way two secure yourself, which is something i am also guilty of is like trying to find security.
Speaker: But I still see the importance in like being a mentor, um being an educator and like supporting students while also supporting my own practice.
Speaker: Yeah, it's really interesting, like kind of getting into the field of art, at least like in the visual arts, I know, like people prefer hiring for someone with an MFA over someone in our education. And that just has never made sense to me because and it seems like then like the only kind of hiring that will happen is like if you're going to be a professor of teaching art education um instead of like also being an artist so they're totally intertwined as how you do it we just how people separate it is really interesting
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's interesting because, yeah, people don't seem to value our education in the same way. um Even though it's kind of how you become an artist to begin with, it's kind of like the whole backbone of it.
Speaker: And it was like interesting, like going through being interviewed and going through these programs and navigating them because i was told like, while I'm interviewed for my MFA, like don't mention that you want to teach. Like that shouldn't be your reason to go into the MFA program. Like you should want to be focused on your career as an artist, even though you need that degree to teach college level art.
Speaker: So it's like, why can't that be your reason for winning MFA when that's what you need to teach? So it's like really, it's interesting how people like see teaching in the field of like college level art and how different it is from like teaching K through 12 art.
Speaker: Right. And then kind of um shifting the conversation a little bit, what advice would you give to other artists with disabilities? I was trying to think through, like, the, I guess, like, what I'm thinking about right now is like, being in an academic setting.
Speaker: i mean, it's really different for each university you go to and, like, what your role is I think. Like, I've noticed that with with being in, like, a grad school program, it's really different. Like, you're still a student, but you're also, like, a...
Speaker: teacher, you're in this weird in-between state where, like, there's less support because they have, like, a student disability, like, center, but they also have, like, an employee disability center, but you fall, like, right in between, and so there's really no, like, support in either one, and so you have to, like,
Speaker: advocate for yourself on a new level because I felt like in undergrad, they kind of just, they would believe me, which was nice. Like I would just tell them this is what I need. this is what I have.
Speaker: And then they would set up the accommodations with no questions. But here it seems like I'm constantly having to prove myself and prove what i what accommodations I need while in this program. And I don't know if that's like a university thing or if it's because my role has shifted and I'm kind of in this weird in-between.
Speaker: But there's more of a need for like self-advocating that I find really difficult because i There's one side of that wants like people to understand what I'm going through, but there's also another side of me that's like, it's really none of your business. And like I should be able to say, i have a disability and I need this, and they should just accommodate and accept that.
Speaker: But that's really not how it is, because I've also just had even with things that you think are easy accommodations to get, they're not here, and they end up getting denied, which I thinks i think is really...
Speaker: It's interesting because like that is their sole purpose in this facility and they're all also just allowed to to to like deny you. And so it feels like there's just this constant back and forth that you need to be prepared for when you're coming into like a university setting or just anywhere with a disability is like the constant need to like self advocate, like it's exhausting.
Speaker: And also I think as like someone who's dealt with pain for a long time, we tend to like downplay what we're experiencing because we just experience pain differently to begin with because i'm it's something that I'm used to.
Speaker: And so i'm my my zero, like, on a scale isn't really a zero. It's kind of just, like, I'm always in this constant state of pain. And so i downplay it.
Speaker: But that's something, like, I would advise, like, not to do, even though it's something that I have to, like, fight against all the time. It's like I have to tell myself to, like, really speak the truth in the situation or else they're not going to hear you.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, how... important like language is in academia to get them to really listen and believe you is uncomfortable. Like I just don't normally talk like that. So I've also experienced a lot of that as well.
Speaker: And then one of our last questions is about any current projects that you'd like to tell us about. um Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of things going on right now I would say when I got here, my whole practice was around, it was disability adjacent, but it was mostly around um how we experience trauma. And um of course, that includes my experience with medical trauma, but I was thinking it from a whole different realm.
Speaker: I, like, was in a school shooting when I was in middle school. And so I kind of focused on that whole narrative of, like, how our minds are, like, rewired when we experience something really traumatic um and how that shifts our minds into a constant state of survival mode.
Speaker: And when I got here and I was experiencing more... barriers to my disability, it kind of shifted more into like, how are we experiencing trauma as a person with a disability um in the medical state, but also like outside of that.
Speaker: and I feel like they've just kind of like blended together. Like I'm working with both at the same time. But yeah, I would say my whole practice revolves around trauma But I recently took a um summer course that was specifically around grief and death studies.
Speaker: And that like kind of opened my understanding of like what is trauma. and what it really entails.
Speaker: So grief, there's a lot of different forms of grief and loss. And one is specifically around trauma. How do we experience grief after trauma?
Speaker: So there was this whole text that we um were reading, and it basically said that not all grief results in trauma trauma. So, like, not all losses are traumatic, but when, but, like, all of the trauma that you experience results in a grief process. So, any trauma-related incidents are always result in that grief grieving process.
Speaker: And I felt like that's something I have been going through without knowing. And so I was interested in that, the like the comparison and the like interrelations between grief and trauma and while also being interested in how, like, our education and ah visual arts are intertwined.
Speaker: And so I saw all of that as an opportunity to do, like, a grief intervention community project where, like, visual arts was a way of coping with grief.
Speaker: So more of like a healing project. and Instead of something that was just like a personal practice, I wanted to open it up because I see ceramics as a really unique opportunity of doing that.
Speaker: I think clay in general is very much a restorative material. You see it all the time in art therapy, and there's like a lot of overlap just between our therapy and our education. And i wanted to kind of utilize my knowledge in both areas because I know that's something that's a little different for grad students is because a lot of them come in with a BFA, not our ed degree.
Speaker: And so I really wanted to utilize my background in that and create a space for people experiencing grief. And right now there's like a lot of that. Like there's so many things happening in the world right now.
Speaker: And I just found it really hard to make work that was so personal when there was so much happening outside of um my experiences.
Speaker: And so finding a way to like create that overlap was important to me. So I created a whole um community project where people could come and experience the restorative properties of clay.
Speaker: um So a lot of people don't have access to clay. Maybe like you could buy air dry clay at Michael's or something, but like experiencing like real clay is just like a whole different experience.
Speaker: And um i know that feeling well of when I got into undergrad and there was just like giant bins of all this clay. Like I've never seen that before in my life.
Speaker: like having access to that kind of material. And so since I still have access to that, I wanted to give the access to other people. And um with um knowing how to set up lessons plan lesson plans, I created this whole like clay bird making project where people could come in and experience experience clay, whether that be directly from like grief that we're holding onto or just a safe space to kind of be
Speaker: and, um, act and feel. cause that was something I really cleaned onto to him when I was reading that text about grief is that there's, there's really two forms of like processing grief.
Speaker: And one is very like intuitive and feeling based. One's very instrumental and like productive, um acting and working and art combines both of those. So it just felt like a very natural project to do right now.
Speaker: So yeah, so I've done that with various groups of people. I'm collecting all the birds right now and there's almost like 400, 450 birds. And there's going to be like a massive installation of all, installation and documentation of all of the ah work that has been done and community building that's happened.
Speaker: Awesome. Yeah. um So where can our audience follow your work online? um I would say Instagram. I'm, I don't post all the time, but I do have some stuff on there.
Speaker: My username is Molly Greenware. So M O L L y G R E E and then W A R E. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time today. We're so excited to have you.
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: Able Voices is a production of the Berkeley Institute for Accessible Arts Education, led by me, Dr. Rhoda Bernard, the founding managing director. It is produced by Daniel Martinez Del Campo.
Speaker: The intro music is by Kai Levin, and our closing song is by Sebastian Batista. Kai and Sebastian are students in the arts education programs at the Berkeley Institute for Accessible Arts Education.
Speaker: If you would like to learn more about our work, find us online at berkeley.edu slash B-I-A-A-E or email us at B-I-A-A-E at berkeley, that's L-E-E dot E-D-U.
