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#25: The singing safety professional
83 Plays6 years ago
Podcast series host Jill James welcomes Josh to the show. Now practicing safety on behalf of a large civil constructor, Josh’s unlikely path started as a teenage tagalong on his father’s construction sites, a go-fer. When his college pursuit of music scholarship was sidetracked by romance and relocation to the West Coast, he found familiar work back in the construction industry. While seeking heavy equipment certification, Josh caught on with a safety consulting firm and threw himself into learning the OSHA regs. Today, he’s also an authorized OSHA Outreach program trainer. You’ll learn the difference between a “qualified” and “competent” person, and why calling OSHA is a smart move when you’re stuck.
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Transcript
Introduction to Josh and His Accidental Safety Journey
00:00:08
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by Vivid Learning Systems and the Health and Safety Institute. This is episode number 25. Wow, we are halfway to 50. And we have a guest today who gets to be that number 25, which is awesome.
00:00:24
Speaker
My name is Jill James, Vivid's Chief Safety Officer, and today I'm joined by Josh, who is a safety professional at Garnie Construction, which is a heavy civil construction company. And Josh is joining us from California today. Josh, welcome to the show. Greetings. So Josh, construction industry, we have not had a lot of people on the podcast from the construction trades yet. And so I am thrilled that you are here. So thank you.
Early Construction Experience and Lack of Formal Safety Training
00:00:54
Speaker
yeah thank you for having me on here it's kind of cool so josh i'm interested to hear your story like we hear everyone else's of how did you get into safety and it sounds like um you have a pretty interesting journey i know we've spoken just a little bit and i can't wait to hear more about um the experiences that you've had along the way but
00:01:19
Speaker
Where did you start out? What were those first jobs even before safety? What's the background in Josh's story? Well, this is a good question. There's a lot of stuff, a lot of background to that and how I came to be in the safety business. And it's a complete accident like your title of your podcast. So it all started when I was young. My dad's always been in the construction industry and building houses and stuff. So I kind of started
00:01:48
Speaker
young, going to his job sites as a kid and watching him do his thing, whether it's, you know, managing the work or actually performing work at the same time. So I started like 14, 15 years old. I go to his job sites and kind of start with housekeeping and cleaning up.
00:02:09
Speaker
of like basically the job sites and subcontractors messes and things like that. So he's putting you to work. He's putting me to work and I appreciate it now. Back then I didn't really like it too much because I wanted to play sports all day and pretty much that was it. Yeah. So yeah, he'd bring me to work and we go early 6.30 in the morning and
00:02:32
Speaker
summer times were the same so I didn't get any breaks in summer besides being away from school but like I said I look back on it now and I'm pretty thankful because it kind of made me who I am well-rounded I guess I guess you can say and
00:02:50
Speaker
Not old fashioned, but my dad's kind of old fashioned construction guy. So anyway, to kind of wrap that up into a nutshell, 14, 15 years old doing that, kind of naturally transitioning into the building aspect of things and operating equipment and stuff like that to, you know, kind of help out as much as I can.
00:03:14
Speaker
And was your dad paying you? Or was this part of being part of a family? It was both. It was kind of an interesting relationship because he didn't want it to come out of his pocket or come out of his company's pocket.
00:03:32
Speaker
to pay me as a 15 year old kid without a work permit, because back then you had to have a work permit at 15 and stuff like that. But anyway. Sure, sure, sure, sure. You can see where we're going with all this stuff. You have a big body of evidence of why you're doing safety. Exactly. Yeah.
00:03:51
Speaker
But anyway, so from there, you know, I started framing walls, doing drywall, digging out utility lines and things like that, and kind of being the jack of all trades, non-union, and making things happen, I guess you could call it, instead of being really safety-minded. Right, getting it done.
00:04:10
Speaker
getting it done and that's kind of the mentality in construction and it still kind of is and you know I've listened to most of your podcasts before and a lot of people talk about the struggle of not having an actual place where you can learn
00:04:29
Speaker
specific construction safety or there's not really an institute or a school for that. So it's really kind of like a general thing, occupational health and safety. Well, that kind of covers anything in occupational health. So if you work for somebody, you're going to be covered in that training or that schooling or whatever.
00:04:50
Speaker
But so from that point forward, just kind of getting heavily involved in building and stuff like that, mostly residential stuff. And again, it was non-union. Yeah. And by this time, have you branched out past where your dad was working and you're working at different companies?
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I was working for different developers and, you know, still within relationship with his company and stuff like that. So I have my dad to thank to get my foot in the door and construction for that. Yeah. Right. Right. I think the same thing, you know, same thing for me by way of like just being, I don't know, maybe adept at industry and how things worked. My dad wasn't in the construction trades. He was in the printing industry.
00:05:37
Speaker
and as his printing factory was a well half a block away from my elementary school and when he worked a swing shift and he got off of work the same time my school got out and so I would work walk over to the factory and walk right into the factory floor.
00:05:56
Speaker
unheard of right like i'm an elementary kid and i'm walking up to the whirling printing presses and you know i knew all the people that worked on the presses i knew there were seven press men as they were called and they were all men and i knew what all their job functions were
00:06:12
Speaker
And I saw what they did, I saw the injuries that they had. I didn't really, I thought that felt sad. You know, when we were talking about somebody's finger got caught in the stitcher, I'm like, wow, that's bad. But it as a really young person opened my eyes to what a piece of the American workforce, let's put it that way.
00:06:34
Speaker
And I wasn't fearful of, you know, industry, but respectful of it and the people that, you know, that did the work. And I'm sure that's what your eyes were seeing as a 14 and 15 year old kid starting out too. And it just grew and expanded from there, right?
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, you know, and a lot of the times is when you're trying to get things done or you walk, like you said, you walk into a facility, a manufacturing facility and you're like, this is kind of where I grew up. You kind of get used to it and you kind of, uh, if someone doesn't tell you something, you kind of don't know what you don't know. So as you keep going, and I'm sure I did a lot of things that I probably shouldn't have done on the safety side of things, but
00:07:16
Speaker
right because we didn't know yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah so what happens next you're you're you're working in the construction trades how long did that last and then what happened yeah probably throughout high school to early college before i left to kansas city to go to college um actually went to college initially for music but
Transition from Music to Safety Focus
00:07:39
Speaker
Ended up going back, going from occupational health and safety degree. And I'm currently trying to get that done right now, trying to finish that up. So music, what do you play? Is it an instrument or vocals or theory? What is it, Josh?
00:07:55
Speaker
Well it all started I was in a rock band when I was 17 and kind of just self-taught and tried to do the you know rock and roll thing and it kind of transformed and evolved into a love and I was like maybe I should just hone this craft because
00:08:13
Speaker
getting pretty good at it, and maybe I should know what I'm doing. You can translate this into paper or translate it into something that's understandable. So that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do that. And then I traveled in a band across the US. That was fun. And it was also chock full of really interesting experiences. Right? Different safety exposures. Oh my gosh.
00:08:37
Speaker
Anyway, so that's yeah, music, vocals, I try it all. So do you still dabble in that? Yeah, every so often I have a guitar at home and I still strum and stuff like that. The singing safety professional.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, maybe I should incorporate that into my toolbox meetings. Right? See how that works. Write some lyrics around wearing personal protective equipment. That's awesome, right? I mean, maybe no one's done that before. You may have just found a niche market. Maybe. Yeah, that's the difference out of the brain, so maybe it will work. Right? It'll appeal to certain audiences for sure.
00:09:16
Speaker
All right, so you went to college for music you you made a shift though, so what's going on then so
00:09:25
Speaker
I'd have my breaks in college and I'd go back home and visit and do some more work with my dad and stuff like that. I happened to meet my wife while I was in college and she was in California and I'm in Kansas City. So as a guy who's in love, you travel to the place where your wife is in.
00:09:48
Speaker
Follow your heart. Follow your heart, exactly what it was. So I kind of stopped doing the college thing for music then and went back home and started doing some construction in the unions and operating engineers.
00:10:04
Speaker
operating heavy equipment and stuff like that, trying to make a living and try to figure out what I wanna do. And that's kind of actually where the safety started because my gap between breaks in college and going back home and to actually finally going back home to California from Kansas City, it stirred some questions for construction companies.
00:10:33
Speaker
And even the general industry, they were getting pretty strict with, okay, you have to be certified this, you have to have this training, you have to have an OSHA 10 or a 30. And so to me, no one ever told me anything about it. I know that you would have to understand the different risks of different scopes of work and stuff.
00:10:55
Speaker
But I didn't really take into account, I didn't even know what a job hazard analysis was. I just, you know, I show up to work and copping my pieces of equipment or grab my bags of tools and go to work. You know what I mean? And not really have any communication or like a meeting with a supervisor or somebody leading a cause to make sure we go home safe at the end of the day.
00:11:19
Speaker
So it all basically came to a point where the company I was working for told me, hey, you need to go get it recertified on your telehandler. So I said, OK, I might as well go do it if I want to work. And I go to this safety training company who does these third party forklift certifications for class seven. So I went there.
00:11:40
Speaker
And I was doing my training sitting in the classroom and then doing the hands-on portion and got to talking with the trainer. And he was like, hey, would you ever be interested in being an instructor for equipment and heavy equipment and stuff? And I said, does it pay better when I'm kidding right now? Right.
00:12:01
Speaker
So that's kind of the turning point to be honest, pardon me for a second. That was the turning point for me because I didn't realize, oh, I actually have to understand like why we do the things that we do in certain ways to help us go home at the end of the day. And from that point I said, I put the flag up and put it
Understanding OSHA Standards: Competent vs. Qualified
00:12:27
Speaker
in the ground and I said, yes, I'll do it.
00:12:29
Speaker
And it pays more. Did it pay more? And it paid more, surprisingly. And it was a little closer to home. I didn't have to travel from my house to San Francisco or the North Bay and kind of give you an understanding of what that looked like was
00:12:47
Speaker
Every day I'd leave the house at like 4 4 a.m. Or 3 sometimes 3 30 to make it to San Francisco only about 80 85 miles from my house, but sometimes it'll take That's a pretty big drive. Yeah, it would take some time. I'll just yeah that way Yeah, and California traffic is no joke
00:13:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're right. And sometimes it'd take me four hours to get home leaving the city. Oh, my gosh. At one o'clock or two o'clock, even. So it was more stable, I guess you can say. No, I'm going to go every day. So I like that.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah. And that was another reason why I chose to do it. But what that meant for me was I'm going to have to start learning all these these rules and regulations and learn about what OSHA is and who they are and and how things work. And, you know, as you as you learn and go through those things and you learn different topics, you find out that there's so much stuff that you don't know. And I still kind of have that mindset every time I learn something new. It's like it's true.
00:13:56
Speaker
There's so much stuff that I don't know. It's true. Yeah. I know. I think that's, I think that's kind of the beauty of, of our professional practices. It's, it's not really an occupation that gets stagnant because there's just always something new, you know, something to learn that we didn't, we, we didn't know. Cause we didn't know, like you said before, or something that changed just in industry.
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah, so were you focused were you focused on like heavy equipment certifications that kind of safety is that that first job so yes, yeah, so the first the first year was learning the OSHA rules and construction.
00:14:35
Speaker
about operating heavy equipment and forklifts and cranes and things like that. And it kind of, as you learn and read through the standards and stuff, you tend to start reading more standards that don't really
00:14:52
Speaker
have similar application, but it's in the book, so you read it, you know? And the company that I worked for happened to be a consulting firm that did a plethora of things, you know, to staffing safety professionals for companies or doing compliance training or like we talked about before the podcast, qualified person and competent person.
00:15:17
Speaker
trainings and things like that. And so naturally my boss challenged me to start learning and he would send me to different training so that I could be qualified to understand and tell people and train people about the stuff that's in the standard.
00:15:37
Speaker
Right. So Josh, I want to break from your story for just a second because you brought up two terms that people ask about often. And it's what is a competent person and what is a qualified person and how are those different? And there are terms that are woven into the OSHA regulations.
00:15:59
Speaker
And people get really concerned about them. Like, what does competent mean? Do I get a certificate? Is it something on a piece of paper? What does qualified mean? Like, who's qualified? How do I find a qualified person? Can you kind of run through what those terms are and what they mean? And go ahead and frame it in the construction trades. That would be beautiful.
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah, I'd be glad to. So, qualified OSHA standards basically state for construction and also general industry, but in construction specifically, being a qualified person is, you know, you have a recognized degree or training and you're qualified and you have the knowledge to understand the scope and application.
00:16:41
Speaker
and the duty to protect employees and people in the workplace doesn't necessarily make you competent. So you have all the attributes of someone who's been learned, I guess you could say, as a qualified person.
00:16:57
Speaker
And then you get to competent person where really in a nutshell, the person or the people you work for can are the are the ones that tell you, you know, you are the competent person for our company. So I mean, you could have the ability to recognize hazards and
00:17:14
Speaker
recognize what you need to do to change those and eliminate those hazards and then stop work, which is actually the definition of a competent person. But your company has to basically deem you. So for instance in my situation,
00:17:28
Speaker
I'm a qualified person to teach OSHA 30 in 10 hours in the construction industry because I went through a training. I went through prerequisites, pardon me, to get a certification, I guess you could call it. Yes, it is. You're an authorized trainer.
00:17:48
Speaker
Correct. So in order for me to be an OSHA outreach trainer that was authorized to do this, I had to go through that training. And so that made me a qualified person to do this.
Broadening Safety Training Beyond Construction
00:18:02
Speaker
And my company is, it's kind of a different thing there, but my company, for instance, I guess you could say has said, okay, well,
00:18:10
Speaker
you are a competent person for OSHA 10 and 30 hour, even though there's not really anything in the standard that talks about the 10 and 30 hour training for that, but maybe something more specific like what OSHA calls out for fall protection. If you have fall risks, you have to have a competent person in fall protection on that project at all times. So that means Garni construction or XYZ construction has
00:18:36
Speaker
said James or Josh or whoever it is, is our competent person and he's qualified. Here's how we prove it. Yeah, right. And has the ability, like you said, a work stoppage. Correct. You know, has the ability if there is a hazardous situation or an unsafe work practice, that that competent person has the authority through their company to to stop that work activity. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that's the main thing.
00:19:03
Speaker
And that word is also woven competent person within the excavation regulation as well. What you deal with in your construction company too. Oh yeah, that's every day. It's basically 90% of what we do.
00:19:17
Speaker
Right. And so you're going back to your story. You're doing training, you're doing confident person and qualified person instructing and training and like what's happening with your career now? What's the next phase of your story?
00:19:34
Speaker
So, you know, I'm teaching heavy equipment. And, you know, like I said earlier, it kind of rolls you into other subjects, especially since you're the company I worked for was so broad in their training in construction and as well as the general industry. So I learned.
00:19:51
Speaker
Eventually over the four years I was there I learned construction and general industry. I was a consultant myself and I'd go on to job sites or go to a warehouse or manufacturing plant and do job inspections and audits and trainings and things like that and so that required me to understand.
00:20:12
Speaker
all the different scopes within the 1926 and 1910 standard. So it wasn't just construction anymore. At that moment, it was also general industry.
00:20:24
Speaker
Yeah, right. So when you were doing and getting your sort of feet wet, if you will, in the regulations specific to heavy equipment, were you rewinding in your head thinking, man, in the times before I had any training and I was in a dozer or backhoe or whatever it was.
00:20:43
Speaker
Oh, crap. You know, are you thinking in your head like I didn't what I didn't know? Yeah, there was there was a lot of those. And you'll hear me laugh when I when I laugh, it's mostly like I'm agreeing with what you're saying. Oh, it's like you laugh now. But at the moment, it wasn't funny at all. Right. But yes, answer question, man. Oh, my gosh. So many things that I can look back on and just say, what in the world was I thinking like?
00:21:12
Speaker
Well, because you didn't know. Right. But at the same time, you know, there's there should be some common sense there, right? Well, we can't legislate common sense. That's for certain. But you hope, right? Right. Right. We can we can hope. That's why training is so vital. Yeah. So, yeah, please keep going with your story.
00:21:32
Speaker
Okay, so with this consultant firm and doing all that stuff and I'm liking it, really getting in the groove and understanding how things work. And I really enjoy the construction part of it and helping people understand the standards and how to apply it to their trades, which is, in my opinion, one of the biggest challenges.
00:21:58
Speaker
For any type of work is you have a set of rules and trying to interpret those rules and then administering those rules in a way that's readily understood by the people working at your company.
00:22:14
Speaker
Yeah. Or different companies, especially as a consultant. I mean, there's so many people that you run into and it's not like you're dedicated to, you know, Garney Construction or whatever construction company it is. And you could get to know them and learn their culture and learn how they react to things and how they understand and receive information.
00:22:34
Speaker
So it's it's a big challenge. I mean consultants kind of got a hard job be honest Not saying that you know dedicated safety professional doesn't mean they got their work cut out for them for for real But I wanted to end up making a much bigger difference than just being a source of information and just making recommendations I guess you could say as a consultant
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah. You talked about how you bridge the gap, if you will, between standards and trades. The regulatory tech says this, but how do I make it real in the minds of the trade? How do you do that? I know that you've told me before that you feel like that's one of the things that you do well at. Can you give maybe for our audience some examples of how you do that that they may learn from you?
00:23:25
Speaker
Yeah, I could try to give some examples that might help. But everybody's got a different situation. So I mean, this this information might not apply for your particular workplace. But for me, having the understanding of being a tradesman in the field,
00:23:46
Speaker
and knowing how people's minds work when you're focused on getting your work done, really. And then crossing over that bridge, we can call it to understanding the scope of work and applying different laws and regulations and standards, I guess you could call it.
00:24:06
Speaker
So I think I got a little blessing to be in the field and do things the wrong way, I guess you could say. It's not the best way to learn, but it's a way to learn. So I kind of had a better understanding of how the mindset was in the field, I guess you could say.
00:24:25
Speaker
Yeah. Kind of, as you know, I mean, your background with with federal OSHA being an enforcement officer, was it an inspection? I'm not sure. Yes, it was. OK, there's a lot of things that are subject to interpretation because that's basically the definition of your understanding is a subject to your interpretation. Right. Right. And there's also a lot of things that are just black and white, you know. Yeah. And it is what it is. You follow this and that's the only way you do it.
00:24:54
Speaker
Well, there's a lot of things in construction, and I'm sure the same in general industry, that you kind of have to stand on a fence, so to speak, in order to get a job done. But you also, you know, if that makes any sense. So bridging the gap between what you what the rule says and how you have to get it done can kind of be in conflict with each other. So you have to come up with a plan. Yeah. And kind of have a
00:25:24
Speaker
a sit-down or a toolbox or a tailgate or tailboard meeting, whatever you wanna call it, and recognize the hazards and kind of follow the hierarchy of controls and adhere to the standards as best as you can to the way that your company interprets it. And there's a lot of resources out there. I mean, there's, OSHA's got their consultation people and they're happy to answer their phones. I've called them.
00:25:51
Speaker
many times countless times to help me with understanding things and stuff like that. I think that's really powerful that you just shared that little nugget because there are so many people who are still so fearful of calling OSHA and asking questions. Safety professionals some are absolutely afraid but their employers are more afraid like you did what?
00:26:13
Speaker
You can't do that. They're going to be right out here and nothing could be further from the truth because you have to have probable cause in order to do an inspection. Making a phone call to ask a question does not give OSHA probable cause. I think it's really great as someone in the construction trades for you to admit when I need help, one of my resources is to actually call the horse's mouth.
00:26:36
Speaker
So no, yeah, good work. No, it's it's something that kind of took me a little while to kind of do because there was that fear like you're talking about. Well, maybe they're going to use this information against me or something, which is totally not the case at all in my experience.
00:26:53
Speaker
right plus you never have to say who you are where you work when you call exactly and the interesting thing is they don't ask either i mean every time i've called them they just are just a wealth of information really and if they don't know the answer to the question then they ask you for your information and they try to get back to you on a timely basis and it's pretty cool i mean it really is a good resource and you know that's not just the only one but you know you have other colleagues in horizontal trades and
00:27:22
Speaker
Yeah, those are people that have experience and have done it and walk the path that you're on before you and, you know, those are really huge things that we need is, I mean for me at least in the construction industry, help with because
00:27:39
Speaker
you know, you don't want to, I guess, reinvent the wheel, I guess people like to call it, you know, yeah, yeah, exactly. But I hope that I hope that helps. And I hope that kind of gives and gives an idea of it. But I mean, to give a personal example, for me, as a tradesman, you know, I'd be in an excavator and I'd be digging out a trench line and
00:28:02
Speaker
and doing the open cut so I can protect the people that are going to be going into the trench and stuff like that. And I'd have safety people that would come out to me and kind of have that safety cup mentality like you're talking about, and my brain's going off, but here comes so and so, I wonder what they're going to say now. And there was, I mean, there was complete understanding of why you would think that because every time that person would come out, it would just be,
00:28:28
Speaker
you know, spouting this rule and saying, no, you can't do this. You can't do that. And the worst part of it was there was no solutions or, you know, team mindset and trying to fix it. Right.
00:28:39
Speaker
So I mean, sometimes I'd be sitting in my excavator and just like, I don't even want to work. I don't even want to pull this lever because he's just going to say something else. So, you know, there'd be times where I'd say, Hey, come in the rig with me and show me what you want me to do. And they wouldn't, unfortunately. I mean, I get it, but, um,
00:29:01
Speaker
I hope you get what I mean, right? I do. I do get what you mean. And I'm picturing the way that the way that I did my job when I was with OSHA and using the using the the what you've just set up with an excavation is a great one. And so I would get on an excavation scene.
00:29:19
Speaker
And number one, I'd have to figure out who's that competent person and how am I going to approach the situation first. And so that was always the first question as the safety person on the scene is who's my competent person. And we were talking about that earlier. And then often it was the operator, whoever was actually digging that hole.
00:29:40
Speaker
I don't know if that's common, but it seemed like it was common when I was doing inspections. Rather than coming at it from an accusatory standpoint of like my eyeballs think that this is not shored properly or you're not using a trench box and maybe you could be. I would begin by asking what kind of soil are we dealing with here? That would lead into the rest of the questions I would ask. The competent person, if they said,
00:30:10
Speaker
I'm dealing with a class C soil, I'm dealing with class B. And then I would say, okay, well then how did you determine that? What test did you use? And depending on their answer, which sometimes was, I didn't do any, I don't know, I've been doing this for 20 years and I know what I'm doing and it's a C, or it's a B, I know what it is. But if they said, I did this and I did that, I'm like, okay, so then let's talk about what
00:30:38
Speaker
what that would mean for shoring. Let's get out of tape measure. Can you help me with it? Let's measure it together so that we're all verifying this at the same time. What's the width of your bucket so that we can try to guess what the bottom width is? And we go from there. And so then that's sort of the way that I would use in bridging that the standard, the regulation, says this. And what the trades are doing is this. So how far off are we? Are we right?
00:31:07
Speaker
or do we need to do something more with this and so that's you know in that situation that you put out that's how I would deal with it and I guess in other regulatory senses it would it would be I would say you know the regulations says this
00:31:22
Speaker
And so what that means to you in your work environment is this. And here's what could happen if we weren't doing it this way or it's not right right now. And so here's the risk that it puts you at. So even though the rule book says this, let's try to figure out how do we practically give an example of what that means for you in your life right now. And
00:31:44
Speaker
usually that would work or people would say oh yeah because that one time I got a shock when I did this you know and oh okay that's why that makes sense you know that didn't always work it wasn't like you know the crystal ball and everybody's eyes went oh yeah
00:32:01
Speaker
the smartest safety person ever it didn't always happen that way. But it was it was a safe way to walk into the conversation without someone coming at you and saying you know you're just the safety cop. Right. Yeah, that's key. Extremely key everything you just said is actually
00:32:17
Speaker
Common practice for me here at the company I work for is it's very much team a team effort team mindset rather than just You know saying this is what it is. And this is the way you have to do it I mean, so there's you know some moments when there's egregious action, you know or reaction to something that needs to be addressed So you need to be that safety cop in those moments?
00:32:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But I think, you know, like we talked about earlier, bridging the gap between the field and standard, meeting people where they are, understanding your audience and your delivery. So basically everything you just said is is how I usually bridge gap. That's one way. And, you know, you want to make your program a living and breathing program instead of just checking off a box. So you've been trained and I'll see you in a couple of years on this training again.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, it doesn't work that way. No, not at all. Or, well, it ought not. It shouldn't, yeah. Yeah, right. So, Josh, you had mentioned earlier education and
Exploration of Safety in Healthcare
00:33:20
Speaker
background. And I know you said that you started college, but I know you came back to it. So let's talk about kind of your educational background and kind of what that path was and where you're at now. Sure.
00:33:31
Speaker
Yeah, I'll be glad to. So after high school, I went to a trade school really, I guess you could call it, called Boston Reed College for health care safety. And they kind of run you through like blanket programs, like this is what medical assistants have to go to. This was nurses have to go through. This is the risks. This is the understanding of their scope. And this is what doctors have to go through. And so
00:34:01
Speaker
kind of, you know, bridging the gap in that area. I mean, it's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So you went from went from construction trades in your in your young childhood and young adulthood. And then all of a sudden, you switched over to health care.
00:34:17
Speaker
Yeah, it's a crazy journey just because I'm the type of person that I like to think a lot about, okay, is this particular type of work going to be around in the next 50 years? Right, you wanted to do your own succession planning.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And is this sustainable? Exactly. I figured if, you know, there's going to be sick people or there's going to be people, people are going to get sick or going to need help. So, yeah. And then the people that work in those facilities are going to need assistance in making sure that they're safe. Right. So, you know, kind of took a second step instead of saying, I want to be the person who helps the sick people. I want to be the person who who helps the people who help the sick people, I guess. Right. So what did you do with that?
00:35:01
Speaker
So I did an internship with a, I would say a hospital, more of a clinic rather. I worked six months at a Kaiser Permanente. I'm not sure if you guys have that at Back East. So I did that for six months. And I worked in pediatrics. I worked in adult medicine and orthopedics. And sometimes I'd have my walks into the surgery and not in the operating rooms.
00:35:29
Speaker
you know, we do our audits and walks and talk to the people who are, you know, the doctors, the medical assistants, nurses, anesthesiologists and kind of figure out what their days look like and their risks and ask them questions about what they're concerned about. And so we can get a good collection of data to kind of, okay, let's sit down and
00:35:51
Speaker
Um, write down the risks of each trade and how can we apply a safe rule or safe standard? Um, according to, you know, a horizontal rule that's kind of set in place, like, sort of, you can kind of put that as like a OSHA thing. You know, you have your, your OSHA rules or your federal or your state rules. And then you have your standards as a company that you tend to lean towards a more safer practice or best practice rather. Sure.
00:36:19
Speaker
Sure. How did that feel for you? I mean, you had been at the controls of heavy equipment, and all of a sudden, you're in health care. I mean, that's a really pretty big shift. What was happening in your mind career-wise at that time? Did you miss the trades? I missed it. Oh, yeah. You did? OK.
00:36:37
Speaker
missed it too much. I still miss it. It's in your bones. Okay. Yeah, it's in my bones. I mean, I just, I don't know what it was as a kid playing video games and stuff like that. Translating that to pulling levers and operating stuff. And I don't know, I guess I, I thought I was pretty good. I mean, there's definitely better operators and tradesmen out there than not than I am, but
00:37:00
Speaker
It is an absolute art. Yeah, for sure it is. It is an art. I just marvel and loved watching, like, especially backhoe operators or crane operators. Yes. It's so intricate. Yes. What they're doing is so intricate with this massive piece of equipment. I just, you know, I loved being on a construction site just to watch that art.
00:37:23
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's and like you said, I do miss it. And that's why I'm at where I'm at right now. Yeah, I deal with, you know, 250,000 pound heavy equipment every day walking our job sites and making sure people are safe on those and whatnot.
00:37:40
Speaker
How long did this health care gig last for you before you went? I miss it. It was six months. It really was. Oh, wow. Yeah. And it didn't go any further than that. My mom worked at a Kaiser and she told me how what the benefits were like. So a part of my decision making was had a lot to do with like future benefits. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I'm like sure that's the reason why we all do job switches or career changes. It is. It often is.
00:38:10
Speaker
But to kind of answer your question, education. Yeah. Yeah. That was the reason why I made the switch. It was just a suggestion. And I did the schooling for two years and tried it out. Yeah.
00:38:26
Speaker
And if I didn't like it, which it's not like I didn't like it. It's just, um, it wasn't for me. I was used to being outside and my atmospheres and stuff like that would be ever changing, you know, and you're in a hospital or a clinic or a, let's say in the general industry, for instance, and a lot of others, a lot of repetitive motion and, um, stuff like that. And you don't really see much of what's within that, um, box, I guess you could call it, you know, um,
00:38:56
Speaker
But anyway, I just like being outside. Yeah. Excellent. So then you came back to the construction trades and found your found yourself in the in a consulting role for a while and getting your feet
Advanced Safety Education and Training
00:39:12
Speaker
wet. And and I think you had mentioned earlier that you're are you back in college now?
00:39:17
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm back in college. I'm doing my occupational health and safety bachelor's in science, trying to finish that up through Columbia Southern University, which is an online platform. And it's kind of at your own pace.
00:39:34
Speaker
I figured out I could do that when I started going to all the OSHA training institute training classes that they had and they had basically recommended those things through the instructors and things like that.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, so you spent some time at one of the OSHA training institutes as well, getting some additional training. Oh, I spent a lot of time at OTI centers. That's pretty intense. Yeah, they can be, depending on what class you're taking and stuff. So it can be pretty cumbersome if you're not used to sitting in a classroom for five days.
00:40:11
Speaker
Right and you know so people who are listening in case they don't know what we're talking about OSHA in the United States is divided into a certain number of regions and oh I should know this off the top my head but I feel like it's no I think there's more than five.
00:40:28
Speaker
Anyway, divided into different regions, and each region of the country then has what's called an OSHA Training Institute, a center, if you will, where not only OSHA investigators go for specific training, but people who are not government employees like Josh can go and learn specific aspects of safety. So you could, for example, I've had a week-long training on scaffolding.
00:40:57
Speaker
or a week long on just excavation or machine guarding, those electrical safety, those kinds of things. And so if you're a safety professional or doing that work right now and want additional training, know that you can find the OSHA Training Institute in your region and you can actually take classes there.
00:41:19
Speaker
Yeah. So Josh, I'm glad that you've done that. That's some pretty, at least I enjoyed that training. I mean, like you said, it's intense and it's a week long, but where else would have I had the opportunity to actually build scaffolding?
00:41:34
Speaker
in a safe environment. And that was pretty cool. I really enjoyed that training. Yeah, I know. A lot of the trainings are hands-on too, like you're saying. So that's a key to bridge the gap between standards and safety and showing people how it's done the safe way. Yeah. So Josh, how long have you been at Garni?
00:41:53
Speaker
It's been almost a year now here at Garnie. I was with a general contractor before this who specialized in concrete construction and tilt-ups and stuff like that and building schools and hospitals.
00:42:10
Speaker
before that kind of heavy and kind of general construction safety, I guess you could call it. Yeah. And now it's really specified, you know, for the type of work that we do here at Garney is work for municipalities and developers basically in the federal government and
00:42:33
Speaker
So it ranges from plant construction, whether we're building water storage tanks, pump stations, and water treatment facilities from a ground up. We're also doing the pipelines for water. So all the water that you get in your toilets and your sink, you know, Garni helps it get there, essentially, and then treat it and recycle it, essentially.
00:42:57
Speaker
So what's the safety picture like at Garnie?
Garni Construction's Strong Safety Culture
00:43:01
Speaker
I know that you're pretty proud of the work that's happening there with regard to safety, so talk about what it's like.
00:43:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really great culture, honestly, one of the best ones I've been made a part of. First of all, there's a really huge agreement on the culture to be actually safe because a lot of people say, oh, yeah, safeties are number one and safeties at the forefront of what we do. And it really you really don't know until, you know, you see it. One of the things that I kind of like live my life by is if you know it, you show it, you know,
00:43:42
Speaker
You don't like I said you don't know until you actually see what it's like yourself and you experience it and it's it's been a really cool year of learning how healthy and how proactive this company wants to be with
00:43:59
Speaker
their safety program and um the people they let in I guess you could say you know because a lot of the times you know companies will want okay this is our safety professional this is our group of safety professionals and they've been trained they've gone to school and that's who they let in and sometimes or you know a lot of the times it's important to get the people who actually do the work
00:44:22
Speaker
And on those sessions are involved in sculpting the culture that you're trying to create, which Garnet has done a really killer job of doing. So, you know, we have our committees and it's it consists of safety professionals and executives as well as field craft.
00:44:39
Speaker
superintendents foreman and you know labor hands and right you know we get everybody's everybody's hand in the pot to um you know if my suggestion sounds really cool and it's it's a really good idea in my head and all the other safety guys had and the guy from the field says I don't know if that really would work so let's figure out some another way we can do this so I think that's one thing Garnie does really well and
00:45:05
Speaker
it builds the culture yeah yeah and it's a lot of repetition it's not a one and done okay train you on this topic and like i said earlier another two years you get another training um they really want to focus on making the program living and breathing we'll woven into the company's fabric
00:45:24
Speaker
Exactly. And getting everybody involved with safety, because everybody should be a safety person, in my opinion. Yeah, right. Right. And you had said that what you led when you talked about what, I asked you the question, what safety like at Garnie? And you said, it's the culture.
00:45:43
Speaker
And, I mean, you didn't lead with, well, we do this kind of training, we do that kind of training, you know, or we have this many policies, or, you know, check, check, check all the boxes off, which, you know, obviously are parts of what safety professionals have to do. But what you put your finger on immediately is the culture. And you didn't describe it as posters hanging on a wall.
00:46:09
Speaker
you know you didn't describe it as you know slogans that you live by but you went right to the heart of giving an example of how you get multiple voices to the table so to speak to say okay this is this is how we think that we can do this kind of work now what do you what do you all think exactly is it gonna work and if it's not going to work then how do we
00:46:33
Speaker
How do we modify pivot change? What are everybody's ideas? Kind of dump them all out on the table and like, how can we construct this? Yes. Yeah. Very good. And that's kind of like a gurney way, I guess you could call it. We call it bleeding blue because that's our color. So you got that blue. OK. But the whole mindset behind that is.
00:46:55
Speaker
is within someone, and I don't know who said this, but somebody within the company at one point said the phrase, get somebody in the boat with you. And it really resounded with me. And I like to go fish. I like to do that once in a while. So I guess that kind of helped me understand like, okay, well, if you get someone in the boat with you,
00:47:18
Speaker
That's another pair of eyes to help you spot what you can't see and so That's the precedent of you know that team team mindset is getting somebody in the boat with you because if you don't you're gonna miss a lot of things, you know One person or excuse me more people are better than one when you're trying to figure out a solution Yeah, yeah and tell me more about the bleeding blue. What does that mean in your company? I
00:47:46
Speaker
Oh, it's just, you know, you live and breathe the culture with our company. It helps a lot because 99% of our company, I would say close to 100, really, I mean, 99.9% of our company is employee owned. So people get a buy in, you know, you get a stock or a stake in a company and, and you can literally go out to the job site and say, this is my work. This is my, you know, so there's a real ownership.
00:48:15
Speaker
you know, I guess that's what it is ownership and understanding. Yeah, literal ownership. Yeah, exactly. And it helps you want to be involved with, you know, the different programs and quality and safety and and making sure everything is a well oiled cog in this giant machine that we're we're in, you know, and
00:48:39
Speaker
So Bleeding Blue for Garnie is, you know, you're an employee owner, you live and breathe the program. You know, you are a constant assistant when it comes to helping your colleagues or your brother or sister out in the field. You know, hey, look out for this or let's change this. You know, you're constantly pointing out things we could do better and making suggestions and being involved, really. I mean,
00:49:03
Speaker
Isn't that what it didn't mean? You're all encompassed, you know, you're heavily involved. So yeah, that's what it means for us is, you know, number one philosophy safety and, um, um, making a living and breathing and then building the bench. Yeah. I guess you could call it like having a succession. Right. Right. And getting somebody in the boat with you.
00:49:23
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And you stretch that into people's homes as well. Your employees' homes, right? Yeah. Talk about that. It's a new thing we're trying. It's kind of a California thing right now, and I'm going to see how it works.
Extending Safety Culture to Employees' Homes
00:49:40
Speaker
But it's called safe at home And basically the idea is safety doesn't stop at the end of your shift It it's continuous, you know and basically You do not you're not compartmentalizing your your life. I guess in the way Okay, this is work and this is home or something like that and people like that, which is fine But to kind of help with the culture we're trying to build here Having people have a continuous
00:50:10
Speaker
I guess you could call it like a safety angel on your shoulder. Okay. You know, but home stands for something. And it has to do with occupation, but it's a healthful occupational management environment. And so we call it safe at home and we kind of apply that to our homes. And, you know, we ask people to, you know,
00:50:35
Speaker
You take a picture of this something you see outside the house or and something that how how can we apply this in a training how can we apply this in a toolbox you know cuz
00:50:47
Speaker
you're basically going to work to support your livelihood, right? And to make it back home. So that's the that's the main thing of it is you want to be safe so you can go home. That's right. But we wanted to continue, you know, and it's not like we're requiring you do that because you can't really do that as an employer, you know, your shift done, you clock out, you're done for the day.
00:51:11
Speaker
Right, but how does that knowledge transfer to your home environment which impacts your ability to come back to work but also at the same time you're keeping your family safe and your community safe if you're applying the knowledge that you're that you're learning at work to situations outside of where you're getting your paycheck.
00:51:29
Speaker
Yeah. And that's kind of the idea. And then it kind of rolls into like people who might have an injury on the job and safe back to work programs that we have and stuff like that. That's all encompassed within that. It's still, it's still kind of being sorry to interrupt you. Go ahead. No, that's fine.
00:51:47
Speaker
It's kind of, um, and the first fruits, um, and we're, we've rolled it out and we've introduced it and, um, we have stickers and things like that and kind of marketing stuff for it. But, um, I haven't really seen been here long enough to have it render the results that I want to see yet.
00:52:06
Speaker
Yeah, but it's not that you don't have some bragging rights. I mean, it sounds like for anyone listening and you hear that your work is in heavy civil construction company, that's a high hazard industry. And to hear about what you're doing and that you're actually achieving it for anyone who's like, well, it's construction. This is just how it is. It's dangerous. There's not a lot we can do.
00:52:34
Speaker
you're hearing it here. There's a lot you can do. And I think you've got a pretty decent track record with injuries to brag about as well, don't you? Yeah, I mean, to kind of give you a general or a broad understanding of it. Yeah. Our experience mod rate as a company, and we have close to 2500 employees, is 0.4.
Measuring Success in Safety Practices
00:52:59
Speaker
So to kind of give you give a context of that industry standard is 1.0. And I'm sure you understand how that all works and stuff. But yeah, I mean, I think that kind of gives you a good understanding of this is actually number one on our, you know, amongst our philosophies here.
00:53:23
Speaker
Yeah. So the number that you just shared is absolute bragging rights and to be applauded. That's phenomenal. And if you hear Josh saying experience modification rate and gave that number of one being average and you're below average and below average in this case means you're saving a lot of money and you're hurting
00:53:48
Speaker
Hardly any people, it's phenomenal. And if you wanna know more about that, I'd encourage any of the listeners to just back up one episode to episode number 24 where I have a workers compensation expert explain in great detail what that modifier number means and what it means for companies. So congratulations to your company, that's really excellent.
00:54:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's cool. I mean, it's cool to be a part of something that's come so far. And I mean, I've only been here for a year. But, you know, it's a lot of hard work that goes into that. So it's a lot of team effort. So everybody, everybody gets the pat on the back, you know, and yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you had mentioned you had mentioned a little bit ago about your seeing the first fruits. Talk more about what that means. First fruits with regard to culture or progress or what does that mean?
00:54:41
Speaker
Uh, both really, um, you know, first fruits, you know, basically as the evidence of, um, the program that you're creating, um, coming to fruition, you know, and, um, with here in California, at least, um, we've been a company for five years here and, um, the rest of the company has got a lot of experience as in, you know, years.
00:55:05
Speaker
so gardening construction in California is pretty young in trying to catch up with the rest of the company and there's some differences and things like that but to kind of give you an example you know the mindsets really are changing in the field so that's one of my that's my number one goal here is if I could change our mindset into
00:55:30
Speaker
evolving what you think is productive and making it one with being safe, that I'm doing my job. And so changing the mindset and seeing it, you know, with your own eyes, you know, you train your guys, right? You set your expectations or your girls, whoever it is. You set your expectations and you train them and you show them how to do things. And you continue through repetition training
00:55:57
Speaker
you know, whether it's through, what I do here is I make my own specific toolbox cards, we call it safety focus cards here, but I make it specifically for our trade and scope instead of just buying a 52 week solution offline, you know what I mean, which really doesn't have anything to do with what we do.
00:56:17
Speaker
But really, going out in the field, what's our struggles? What are we doing really well? And how can we make it better? Well, this is what our policy says. Thank God it's safer and we lean on best practice and stuff like that. But how do we do this? So, you know, going out and telling people about giving information, like I said, setting the expectations, showing them how to do it, giving them access to people who know more about certain things such as, you know,
00:56:45
Speaker
What types of gloves are we going to be using for this scope? You know, that's just a small example. Yeah. It's the people that are in the boat together with you. Like, yeah, who knows? Yeah. Exactly. So I'm seeing the fruition of that type of work because I'm going out to job sites and people are wearing their PPE. People are talking to each other. Hey, why aren't you wearing your safety glasses or hey, why aren't you wearing your your gloves? You know, or hey, let's stop. Let's think about this.
00:57:15
Speaker
You know, let's go back to our job hazard analysis, which we have, we call it our stack meeting or safety task analysis card and do it every morning. If the task changes, you know, you're supposed to account for that, the risks involved with those hazards before you begin the scope.
00:57:34
Speaker
And a lot of the times when you're in the field, you just go, go, go, go, and your mind is so focused on one thing. Get this work done. And it's not, hey, let's stop this and think about it.
00:57:53
Speaker
And then ask someone else what they think that we can get it, get some solutions about controlling the hazards and then and then you apply it. Right. So it takes extra time, but it's worth it. Well, it absolutely is. And it account, you know, it's like you're taking that breath to say, OK, what's the job today? Who's here? Where's everybody going to be? How are we going to do it?
00:58:20
Speaker
And how are we going to do it safely, you know, and instead of just like, okay, pull my car up to the site, get out, start doing, you know, whatever it's, it, it works better to work as a team. Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. And there's a lot of things, a lot of different examples I can bring up, but, um, the mindset is the biggest one that I'm seeing is, you know, teaching the old dogs new tricks, I guess you could call it and learning from them too.
00:58:47
Speaker
And learning. Oh, my gosh. I'm learning a lot from those guys. Right. I tell them I make sure that I tell them that because, you know, everybody is we're all humans, right? We all deserve the same amount of respect. Now, whether you're a manager or you're a field hand, we all deserve the same amount of respect. So if you understand that and I think you'll go far.
00:59:10
Speaker
Yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly it.
Importance of Collaboration in Safety Roles
00:59:13
Speaker
Lead with that first. Lead with that first. Exactly. Yeah. So, Josh, as we wrap up our time together today, for any safety professionals who are listening, particularly in the construction trades, do you have
00:59:28
Speaker
Do you have any advice for people other than that beautiful nugget that you just dropped? Don't isolate yourself because
00:59:45
Speaker
If you think that you have to do a job on your own, like if you're a part of a construction company that wants to be safe or whatever company that wants to be safe and they hire you as the safety professional, don't think that it's just your job. It is everybody's job. Everybody has the responsibility of being safe. So it doesn't all fall on that safety professional.
01:00:09
Speaker
The safety professional is really there as a reference tool. As someone who could, like we talked about a lot during this session, is bridging the gap between standards and application in the field. But don't isolate yourself.
01:00:25
Speaker
You're not alone. There's a lot of resources out there, you know, whether it's through colleges like Columbia Southern or OSHA training institutes or podcasts like this or having a meeting with, you know, a group of safety professionals that you've kind of
01:00:41
Speaker
gotten together in your local area, you know kind of like how ASSP kind of does it and they do a lot of informational things and Stuff like that, which has a lot to do with the safe at home thing. I forgot to add that but
01:00:57
Speaker
there's a lot of resources out there so you're not alone and that's kind of how i how i thought it i was alone um when i first started this and it was really overwhelming yeah so yeah that's beautiful that's beautiful i love that don't isolate yourself that makes so much sense
01:01:17
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you for that. Really appreciate it. And Josh, thank you so much for your time today.
Conclusion and Emphasis on Safety's Importance
01:01:22
Speaker
This has been great. And congratulations on your work in progress at Garnie. And I'm interested to keep following your career and the company and see what happens next with this singing safety professional. Tell me if you develop something around that. I want to know.
01:01:40
Speaker
I have to get back to you on that. I have to get some, I guess you could call it pride or some confidence in bringing my guitar to the field and seeing how that works. I want to hear how that works. I'll get some standards on a piece of paper and put a melody to it and see what happens. Beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you, Josh. I appreciate it. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for your time and having me on here.
01:02:06
Speaker
Yeah, you're welcome. And thank you all so much for joining in and listening today. And thank you for the work that you all do to make sure your workers make it home safe every day. And special thanks to our podcast producer, Will Moss. And remember, you can listen to all of our episodes at vividlearningsystems.com or subscribe in the podcast player of your choosing.
01:02:27
Speaker
If you have a suggestion for a guest, including if it's yourself, please contact me at social at vividlearningsystems.com. Until next time, thanks for listening.