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Episode 173: New Beginnings
364 Plays2 years ago
Hello, Podwalkers, and welcome back to the show! Today we look ahead to the future of Magic after Maro mentioned that after the Phyrexians Magic will be changing in some ways "forever". The hosts wonder what that could be and build off of some threads already out there (and a prof video)
Again we would like to state that Black Lives Matter
We also are proud to have partnered with Grinding Coffee Co a black, LGBT+ affiliated and owned, coffee business that is aimed at providing coffee to gamers. You can read more about their mission here. You can use our partner code for discounted coffee!
We also finally have a Linktree with all of our discounts/resources
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As promised, we keep Mental Health Links available every episode. But For general Mental Health the National Alliance on Mental Illness (NAMI) has great resources for people struggling with mental health concerns as well as their families. We also want to draw attention to this article on stigma from NAMI's site.
If you’re thinking about suicide or just need someone to talk to right now, you can get support from any of the resources below.
- National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 988
- Veteran's can Press 1 at anytime to be taken to the Veteran's Line
- Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741-741
- International suicide hotlines: A comprehensive resource list for people outside the US.
- IMAlive: Click Chat Now to access a live online network of volunteers through instant messaging.
- TrevorLifeline, TrevorChat, and TrevorText (LGBTQ+ crisis support): 1-866-488-7386, or text “Trevor” to 1-202-304-1200
- Trans Lifeline (US): (877) 565-8860
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Opening and closing music by Wintergatan (@wintergatan). Logo art by Steven Raffael (@SteveRaffle)
Goblin Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast, and a part of their growing Vorthos content – as well as Magic content of all kinds. Check them out at hipstersofthecoast.com
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Transcript
Introduction & Partnership Shoutout
00:00:30
Speaker
Hello, Planeswalkers, and welcome back to another episode of the Goblin Lore podcast. I'm Hobbs Q, pronouns he him, and I just wanted to set up a little bit of today's episode by making sure that we give a shout out right at the beginning to the Grinding Coffee Company. They are an LGBT minority ran coffee company that we're just grateful to be paired with for kind of a long time, since I think they started really having a partnership deal.
00:00:57
Speaker
I mean, personally, I say we in the royal way because Alex in particular does not drink coffee. But that I drink their coffee kind of a lot. I've been a big fan of theirs and of their work. And also just their willingness to work with us on charity events and anything that kind of Goblin Lore has wanted to do. So yeah, I just want to always make sure that the number one person I really like to shout out even with some of the other partnerships that we do, theirs has been the one that's been kind of the most constant. I really think of them as a big supporter of the show.
Theme of New Beginnings
00:01:27
Speaker
So we're back after kind of the new year. We last week talked about the new year and what that kind of means. And today's episode is also going to kind of be about new beginnings. And this comes a little bit from Ateya's idea that she had this week. And so I'm going to turn it over to her to let her kind of start us off.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, jumping the topic early, you said welcome planeswalkers, not podwalkers. And so yeah, there were things we're going to be talking about today. I think that's the first time we've changed the intro since we've started this podcast. Wow, I'm embarrassed at this point. I was gonna say I jumped right in a topic and also didn't even like even though I kind of
00:02:09
Speaker
discussed how we were gonna pass it over to Thea, realized they didn't even, we didn't do introductions, and then Thea's still kinda new to the cast, so I guess that's what we do, I guess.
00:02:19
Speaker
So yeah, hi, I'm Taya, she, her, they, them. Yeah, we're going to be talking about, you know, it's a new year.
Speculations on Magic's Future
00:02:27
Speaker
Last week we talked about what are our plans for the year, but let's take a bigger picture and like, what do we know about magic for the year going forward and what do we want to see out of magic for the year going forward? And then turn over to our third co-host, Alex. Yeah, Alex.
00:02:47
Speaker
phone on Twitter sometimes, not as much right now at Mel underscore chronicler, my pronouns are he him and, and yeah, this was a great topic that they brought up to talk about. And also in amongst the whole, you know, joking about new beginnings with the podcast, new beginning of this episode, we also are very much on our own brand of just being off the rails immediately. So just because something starting out with a new beginning doesn't mean that everything has to change. But we'll get into that as the episode goes on.
00:03:18
Speaker
This is our way of saying the complete format of the show is going to be starting next week, completely different. Yeah, we're just trying to prepare you all for it now. Yeah, completely different by which he means it'll probably be the exact same thing, but we'll forget. And so it won't matter. Anyway, we have an opening question. Hobbs, did you want to?
Hopes for Magic's Storytelling
00:03:41
Speaker
go start with that no because I passed it over to Taya and she was nice I went out that I said planes walkers instead of podwalkers and I'm sitting here in mortified embarrassment so the question today is what change do you want to see in magic this year and the first thing that came to mind with me was foils that no curl please please wizards please I know it's not likely to be fixed
00:04:16
Speaker
just by the non foils only
00:04:25
Speaker
But on a more serious note, what I would like to see would be more story between the main sets. We used to get occasional story when the commander sets would come out and some other supplemental products. I would love to see more
00:04:41
Speaker
in between um our main stories and just get to see what's going on in the multiverse um maybe not right at this moment because everything in the multiverse is going to crap which is part about what we're talking about um today but uh you know i really would like to get back to it i want to know you know what is nar set up to um when she's not keeping you from drawing cards
00:05:05
Speaker
Yeah, and that was some of my favorite story for Magic, to be honest.
Incorporating New Storytelling Styles
00:05:10
Speaker
The main stories can be great, and sometimes they can miss, but having those smaller stories in between, whether it's with the commands or sets, the other supplemental products, or even just some of the cards showing up in those sets, kind of building some extra flavor, building some extra depth of the multiverse was always fun to see.
00:05:30
Speaker
And the web fiction, I mean, I'm thinking in particular, I really liked short stories. I guess that's kind of what we're doing. And Alex, you and I had talked in the past about they're moving to more of a comic book style method, which is kind of how we have been getting things in some ways now, in terms of just getting like one shots, or you know, like the way the stories are coming out in chapters or serials, but
00:05:54
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and we'll see. Hopefully, I'm hopeful that we do start to get more story like that. And it fits with that format well, I think. Also, I've read some comics, but I haven't followed comics a ton as a hobby. But when you have, particularly if you're telling larger arcing stories, you can use some of those smaller things to have beats between them, to have those moments of breath for the audience that help to build things. And I think it would fit. So I'm hopeful.
Addressing Product Fatigue
00:06:24
Speaker
Moments of breath is is a great so I'm just going to jump in and that would be my change for this year would be moments of breath. I don't feel like I have them as much when it comes to magic recently and I kind of have discussed this a little bit right like we've there's been a lot of discussion about product fatigue and.
00:06:45
Speaker
The old adage of you know, not every product is for everybody is something that is fine except the format that I mainly play is the format that is open to all cards and The number of unique cards that have come out has me overwhelmed to the point where I just don't even feel like updating decks I don't really feel like me like
00:07:06
Speaker
Looking at certain like I haven't looked at sets in quite a while and I I don't know what a ton of cards do But I also feel like I can't jump back in like I used to feel like I could take a break from magic and I could jump back in Pretty seamlessly and I just feel that at this point with a number of unique cards coming out and in the fact that The predominant way to play especially for me as commander meaning the card pool really is open so even if a certain products in terms of
00:07:32
Speaker
you know like special treatments or secret layers as you were saying Taya like it's fine with me if those aren't for me unique cards is where it becomes an issue so I would like a breath and I think that that could also come with story where we just have slice of life or something that just takes us out of
00:07:50
Speaker
the necessary buildup of drama to a kind of a denouement or something. And I think that that's just something that, we talked, I think a little bit about that with Spice, about going back to Ravnica and just following like street level goblins or something like that would be a nice change of pace for me. And I think, but I can just say breath, that's what I would love to see is just a pause.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah, and for me, I haven't bought many cards for several years now. I used to, every set come out, even if I wasn't buying a ton of the set, I was looking at the legends and I was looking at unique cards and are there new decks I want to build. I have recently been buying some cards, not the last couple of sets when the whole Phyrexian thing has gotten big, which I'll talk to about in a little bit.
00:08:40
Speaker
But what I've done now at this point, I've really ignored most of the cards that are coming out and drilled really deep into my three primary decks that I play. And I go, are there anything in the very narrow, specific band for these exact three decks that would be interesting for me to pick up? And I picked up a handful of cards for that, but that's it. I've really not paid attention. Other than that, I have not really bought Magic.
00:09:10
Speaker
of the
00:09:28
Speaker
year, year and a half and it just shows how much of a unique product there has been or unique new cards but also just how much power they generally have over older choices.
00:09:44
Speaker
If I could wish for two things for this upcoming year, the other would be that creatures don't have to do everything when they come in, when they attack, and when they leave the battlefield.
Power Creep and Game Balance
00:09:58
Speaker
I've had this discussion recently with Ryan Sainio, a friend of ours who lives locally who's been on the show.
00:10:05
Speaker
recorded for a separate thing the other night and i was talking about the fact that like the old adage of you know just run removal or dies the doom late it doesn't it that's such a outdated thing because it doesn't matter you already get so much value right and and they just keep printing things that double things which also
00:10:23
Speaker
Like, the new Elish Norn, I'm not gonna harp on this much because, and I'm not one of the people who's just yelling, oh, this needs to be banned before, you know, it's even out. But we didn't need another thing that doubled ETBs. You know, Dockside doesn't make enough treasure tokens. Yeah.
00:10:43
Speaker
But I think it's true, right? Like the cards that that people even even in not not even moving into CDH, just looking at higher power, the cards that have a big impact. Just Dockside. OK, you killed it. I guess I can't clone it, right? Like I can't do a cheap. I can just reanimate it now.
00:11:04
Speaker
right i have that but like the idea of like like everything has so much check i mean like right what isn't it the joke that um you're like nobody remembers that questing beast has reach right yeah because it does everything else does everything so yeah i yeah
00:11:22
Speaker
So Alex, did you actually give us an answer? No, I haven't given my answer yet. You did so well at astutely following up on Taya and I's answers that I just assumed you had. They were good answers, and so it's a good conversation to kind of talk about, contribute more. So mine, which I'm a little maybe worried is the wrong term, but I think this might sort of devolve into the actual episode. That's why I kind of wanted to go last.
00:11:46
Speaker
But I've talked about this a little bit. And I think this is just a good spot in the beginning-ish of the episode.
Disengagement from Phyrexian Storyline
00:11:53
Speaker
I mean, we're 10 minutes in because, of course, we are. Just to talk a little bit about my engagement with the game. And obviously, I talked a little bit about my engagement with the product itself. But the actual story and the game itself is something I have actively, for the last year, not been engaging with because of the Phyrexian storyline.
00:12:15
Speaker
It's not just that I don't like it and I don't want to say, and I want to be very clear about it. It isn't that it's bad or that I think the story is a problem. It's that for me, the storyline specifically, starting with the last Kamigawa set, with Tamio, that whole complete subversion of her will, that is a storyline I can't engage with.
00:12:39
Speaker
And especially that way. There are a handful of media that have had those sorts of themes somewhere that I still really enjoy and can engage with because of how it's used. But it was clear at that moment that Wizards was using this as an opening moment
00:12:58
Speaker
to put this sort of damocles above the entire community's head to say, who's next? What's going to happen? We're not going to tell you. You're just going to find out. And I couldn't deal with that stress. Like that was going to cause me stress. And so I just disengaged from the game. And I picked up bits and pieces, I know.
00:13:16
Speaker
That's happened with more characters. There's a few characters who should have been left dead. Probably emotionally, it feels that way. And I can't really talk about how it's been handled in the story and whether that was good or not. Because again, I have very specifically not engaged with the story. And I do, again, want to make the claim that I'm not saying it was a bad thing that they did this, but for me, I can't engage with this right now.
00:13:40
Speaker
And so yeah, go ahead tops because I've had this like I don't necessarily think it's it doesn't need to be a bad thing. I do think that there's been concerns. My concern is the way that it has been used at times with specific the characters that has been used with.
00:13:57
Speaker
Today and we are now moving at a breakneck speed that you and I when this started we're not sure was even possible which was the hard part for you because With knowing we didn't know Wizards plans at that point. Yeah, we didn't have an announcement of future sets or what directions we were going in it was kind of like, okay, Born klech shows up on kaldheim
00:14:19
Speaker
there's a teaser in there right then all of a sudden somebody shows up somewhere else then all of a sudden cameo completed that it was that progression because we didn't know then there was no like guaranteed that this thing would be over in.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah, any length of time. And they, I think I mean, I know how to think that was intentional, the way they were telling this story. And I will say, again, I don't want to say that it was bad. Because if this story is affecting people, people are engaging with it, that's good. And I'm glad that people are enjoying it. It's, it's a little bit like in Australia.
00:14:52
Speaker
I, Innistrad has never done it a lot for me, but there are people who absolutely love Innistrad. So even when we go back, it's not great for me. I don't care as much, but I'm very, very happy that other people have things that they love and can engage with there. So if people are engaging with the story, that's wonderful. That's awesome.
00:15:11
Speaker
My only little sort of caveat on that too is it feels a little abrupt isn't the right word, but this is not a type of story that magic has ever really done.
00:15:26
Speaker
like this, there has been some sorts of some various types of horotropes and things like that, but it feels a little bit like I kind of got ambushed with this whole thing happening, even though they, they said that there was going to be some phyrexian things, but then all of a sudden was like, and it's worse than you thought. Tune in later. Yes. And I
00:15:47
Speaker
that first one bothered me because of who with Tamio and the way that they had set Tamio up. And I think that there's a way that we've talked about with body horror. There's a lot with directions that have already been difficult for people to do with kind of that idea of consent. We've talked about that piece, mind control and body taking over right like that.
00:16:09
Speaker
You just lose yourself, you have no control over it, etc. With Tamio, we got this great set in Neon Dynasty, and I want to again say that. If I have been most disappointed with us not having a block structure or getting to spend more time places, it was there. If you look at all of the year-end, like year-end reviews, wrap-ups for last year, there was just universally positive about Kamigawa.
00:16:36
Speaker
which I never hear magic players agree on anything. Yeah. Well, we'll get to that actually. Um, but I mean, um, I think that it was right. Like it was everything from the art, the, you know, we're, we've talked about this when it comes to like me, I I'm getting tired of all art treatments, but like the woodblock lands, it's when they're used sparingly. Like that was just an homage to a style, uh,
00:17:03
Speaker
I just got the proofs of those. I know I showed them to Taya. I don't know if you saw Alex. Yeah, I did. They look like wood blocks. They may have been done in that method. There's so much cool stuff there. And guess what? They hired DEI people and actually addressed the elephant of the room of the original Kamigawa. There was so much going on there. But they also then gave us Tamio and set her up to be like, we're back on Tamio's home world. Look, she basically protects the village. And she's a mother.
00:17:31
Speaker
And now we complete her, right? Like they really did it in a way that kind of felt emotionally manipulative. A character that I'm going to mention. And so like for this episode, we're going to have to talk around some stuff as less awkwardly as we can. Just for the sake of like, you know, like I don't like we talked about this before we went on the air. So this is not something that the three of us haven't discussed. But we're just, you know, being mindful of this. But there are a few things that are going to be relevant.
Character Arcs and Emotional Impact
00:17:59
Speaker
And my second one is just going to be
00:18:01
Speaker
Uh, and it's just because I've had conversations with some cosplayers who do some of these characters of the ones that have hurt the most in some ways. And like I said, it's supposed to hurt. That's the idea behind it. But it's also a Johnny is kind of set up in a way that was, he had already had a redemption arc.
00:18:19
Speaker
and had like gotten to this like cat dad place and is this you know what i mean and it's like it's almost like you're doing it to specific characters specifically to cause that pain right pain and and like once again
00:18:34
Speaker
Things should be painful. Life isn't. But it does also feel like there could be that's where it straddles that line, which is where you've said, Alex, like, it's not that they can't do this, but it is where I have had some difficulty with it. Yeah. And they really amped it up with the current and the other incoming set of one where you mentioned the sort of Damocles thing where they basically said, here's 10 planeswalkers. Five of them are screwed. And here's all of them in what if worlds in case they were to be screwed.
00:19:04
Speaker
So it's just, yeah, they've been playing up that aspect even more than just, so they've definitely been pushing in that direction. You were talking about the uncomfortable direction. Yeah, I get that. And like in a thing for narrative, like
00:19:21
Speaker
Tension is important conflict tends to be important in all stories and characters especially you know in narratives like magic characters are going to be in conflict characters are going to be in danger that is a thing and negative things can happen to them. I don't wanna I don't wanna come across as saying that that it's bad that this is happening but it's just.
00:19:41
Speaker
this it almost especially is what i'm catching is the the quantity of this it almost seems excessive i don't know it's hard for me to say because i've i've intentionally
00:19:54
Speaker
Disengaged early unless I've been picking up well that goes right into what the origin of this talk was which it does seem excessive But it's also building to some kind of large change in magic according to mark rosewater is that There's gonna be after marching machines. I'm guessing you know probably tied in the aftermath or after aftermath
00:20:19
Speaker
is we're getting big changes in story and gameplay. And that's left the community scrambling to figure out what is meant by that. Because, as I saw, Kaburi put it, the last time we were promised the world altering event, we got forsaken.
00:20:38
Speaker
And I don't think anybody wants Forsaken again. Even then, the funny part is, we were talking about this a little bit before we came on air, we got our monkey paw wish in some ways, because we said that the problem was there was so little stakes at the end of this culmination. War of the Spark, yeah. War of the Spark. They killed off one planeswalker who's basically been a side character and very few of us cared about, and then another planeswalker and nobody gave a damn about it all.
00:21:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'll say one of the few positives I do have to give that before I mean, they killed the deckfade and was killed on screen in the preview. So we did the actual actual action of the text. Sorry, in the actual text of the first one, I never actually read the second book, but in that first book,
00:21:29
Speaker
they actually made me care for him as a character. I did read all the comics, so I liked him as a character to begin with, but I've always liked plucky thieves. Honestly, his death in that moment felt satisfying the way they built that character, the way he made the choice to stay and help.
00:21:52
Speaker
knowing the stakes, knowing the risks. And so that still felt like that piece, like there's a whole lot of not great and bad that came out of the war, the spark things. But there were definitely some positives. And that's one that I do want to call out. But to be the funniest part of this whole thing, though, is I still haven't actually said much.
00:22:20
Speaker
We wanted up stakes and it's it's like we've swung now This other direction and we've also coming in a breakneck speed from what we're kind of used to see
00:22:36
Speaker
So Alex, your answer so we can move on to my answer. It's murky. Just like what's going on now. I don't want to I don't want to go scarlet witch and just say no more phyrexians or something, which is a comics reference that I barely get. But I hope someone out there did and appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. It was appropriate. It was on top. Yeah. I don't quite want to do that. But I
00:23:01
Speaker
I'm concerned about how they land this story, not just because I'm not a big fan of the story. But this was so like, is it up such a hard swing to the other direction, that it feels like there will be a temptation to almost swing it back the other direction immediately in the resolution. And
00:23:21
Speaker
I don't know that I want that because it would make it the last year or two feel like, why? Why did we even do all this then? But then at the same time, it's like within, I don't know. So I just hope that, I guess my hope for this year is just praying. I would say a miracle, but actually I'm going to take that back because
00:23:44
Speaker
We know some people on the story team and the people on this and it would be mean to the people in the story team who've been working hard at this thing it's just because it doesn't it hasn't fit for me doesn't mean that they haven't been working hard and doing a good job I'm just I'm really hoping that they managed to land this in a way that isn't just an erasure of everything that happened well at the same time
00:24:06
Speaker
Bill allowing the community to feel some trust and to feel some stability again, because those are both very different things. And I think both are in danger with the way this story has been going. Wow, that cycles us nicely, Taya, to your actual topic.
Future Storylines and Diversity Hopes
00:24:19
Speaker
Yeah. Which is great to get to that we've now managed to tangent back away from three times. We're goblins, it happens.
00:24:32
Speaker
I literally just got distracted by like shinies on my desk and it's fine.
00:24:38
Speaker
So yeah, it's really what is this new year going to bring? We know we have, besides one which is getting story currently, we have essentially a large set and a small set. I think Aftermath is a small set, I can't remember for sure, to wrap up this whole storyline. And then we're promised a new and different world. And we know already we're going to Ixalan and we're going to Eldraine, which are both
00:25:08
Speaker
um they're both more picturesque resort style um planes so um you know vampire uh vampire catholics aside um you know Catholic conquistadors yes hey we get goblins back with jobs yes you get more more piratey goblins um and
00:25:35
Speaker
They're definitely looking like they're teeing up a palate cleanser for us, but it is looking at the state of the story and where it is right now, and what they have to wrap up in the next two sets before they get to that palate cleanser. They are going to go through a lot in the next couple of sets, and I hope it doesn't get rushed or
00:25:59
Speaker
wrapped up quickly like alex said is like i i joked earlier in our free shows that i'm expecting some kind of is it simic project where they make a genophage that kills phyrexians or something some you know deus ex machina with that and they just cleanly wrap everything up and i'm hoping what it isn't that obvious uh
00:26:23
Speaker
I'm kind of laughing because I almost misheard you and heard Deus sex Machina. And now I'm just like, what is the sex machine that's gonna come in and save us all? That's how the Rakdos come in. I was gonna say, yeah, you said, is it Simmy, but the Machina is definitely much more of a Rakdos. Sorry, my brain really just, this is hot as hell. It's just light right now.
00:26:53
Speaker
I wasn't letting it go. People are still listening to this podcast after all these years. I think they know exactly what they're getting.
00:27:04
Speaker
And if this is your first episode, welcome. So yeah, so we we are kind of so so Mark Rozrudder, if people don't know, has his has a blog a talk where he responds to a lot of things. And he made it. He's I'm impressed. I am impressed. And, you know, Taya, you alerted us to one related to
00:27:34
Speaker
like the the wrap up of this and basically that things are going to change i think is the the idea behind it yeah at its core you know we're being promised large changes for the game and the story so um
00:27:51
Speaker
We're not going to focus so much on the possible mechanical changes. Professor did a very interesting video on what he think might happen with the mechanics. Some of it's really far out there, but where we're going in the story is pretty far out there, too. So who knows? I suggest checking that out if you're interested in the mechanics side. On the story side,
00:28:13
Speaker
And I will put the video link in and there's also a thread by Jeremy Noel kind of that just says, like, give me some wild out there. What could be changes? Thinking a little bit more on the mechanical side, I think, too. And we will include both of those. But yeah, we discussed this on the story side. I mean, I'm all for goblins taking over the multiverse at this point. They're underestimate. I made a joke when we finally got the phyrexian language like translation that they don't have the word for goblin and that's going to be their downfall.
00:28:43
Speaker
it's what happened to the last pharaxians it's gonna happen to these ones too yeah that's and it could still be the same goblin too potentially yeah exactly what squeeze uh status is currently but i know he was in the snow he's good he's good that's good to hear
00:29:08
Speaker
Yeah, Squee does what Squee does. Told you with my heart enough that that might be too much. Something happens to Squee. Yeah, so I mean what we've got hints on so far based on key art is that there's just going to be a bunch of legendary creatures crossing planes and everything else. So, you know, we don't
00:29:29
Speaker
that these gateways are going to stay open after Phyrexia is conquered. Assuming they are because we don't have, it's not Eldraine, all will be one, or Eldraine, welcome to Phyrexia part two. We have pretty much indications that yes, the good guys will win, thankfully, and we will just have Phyrexian sets till the end of time.
00:29:55
Speaker
But yeah, it does seem like a lot is going to change over the next couple of sets, and I'm excited to see what they can do with the story. I liked it when non-planeswalkers can move across planes, and I think it opens up a lot of space in storytelling.
00:30:16
Speaker
I agree. I understand, and I'm sorry if I'm cutting you off, but I understood a little bit why they wanted to tell more self-contained stories for a while after the invasion block in particular. It wasn't just the invasion block. It was invasion and then all the Dominaria stuff. They wanted to do some more self-contained stories, which I think is part of why they did that.
00:30:38
Speaker
But I think they're also maybe regret that a little bit now. Because like you say, there's lots of great legends. It'd be great to see them interacting with each other and doing stuff. And honestly, if one of the things we get out of this, and I think we talked about this a little bit when we talked about Strixhaven, but I want to see Strixhaven be the interplane college, where everybody gets to go mage school across from all the planes, if they can do that somehow.
00:31:09
Speaker
We know that they're like one place where they have a library that's full of the knowledge of the multiverse, and let's get this open to more people. Do you two have any maybe small, maybe big story things you're hoping to see?
00:31:27
Speaker
I would like to see just bringing in some flooding of some of the planes that have really weird metaphysics like pharaohs and having the gods investigate like other planes or something like that.
00:31:47
Speaker
you know, people coming in where, you know, there's conflicting gods from other planes and having like starting some kind of religious war with theros or something. I could see that having some interesting, like let's put the conquistadors up against the vampire conquistadors up against the gods of theros, up against the auras of... Maybe some religious
00:32:14
Speaker
evolutions taking place on Amonkhet or something. Yeah. Like after us could just go set up shop on Amonkhet, you know, he put right
Gods & Metaphysical Conflicts
00:32:23
Speaker
in. Seems like a good play for him. I was like, you know, a way to tie the underworlds together is an interesting concept to me. I think when Elspeth got lost in the underworld, and then now where Gideon's underworld is like, you don't die on your home plane. And we do know that for a fact that
00:32:43
Speaker
plane he is from has an underworld like that's like that is cool metaphysical type of thing yeah and we know dominaria has an underworld as well you know we don't know a whole lot about it other than demons come from there but but like what yeah so like you could how do how do planes maybe connect other ways i mean didn't we get a little hint at this with like saying you're kind of showing up
00:33:10
Speaker
with one of the, when they did one of the sets, like there was like, basically Seniors had like, crossed over. Yeah, and Seniors used to travel a lot between the planes, he hung out with planeswalkers and used to go and basically father a bunch of vampires and other planes as he went around hanging out with his planeswalker buddies.
00:33:28
Speaker
So I would love to see Senghir family lineage across the multiverse. And there was the little reference to him in Commander Legends. That's what it was. Nothing happened. They're like, he was last seen with an army of vampires heading to the Dwarven Ruins to go to another plane. Yeah, 25 years later, we have no idea what's on the other side of the Dwarven Portal.
00:33:56
Speaker
Hey, we just finally got to figure out who the Raven Man is give give some time. Oh Hey Alex, did you know that we know? Yeah, I know that out. Okay. Find that one out because we've joked about it even on this show before. Yes. So for me, if we're looking at change,
00:34:19
Speaker
I already mentioned kind of the taking a breath thing. I think it is. It's hard like I I miss block structure. So that's a hard thing for me. I miss having more time with a plane. I like I need to especially with some of the new you know, I mean like Kamigawa, I would have loved another set so much in Kamigawa all time.
00:34:38
Speaker
I would like all time is why that was the other one that I mean they tried to cram in all 10 rounds into 10 or 12 rounds whatever reason to a single set. So and I think that this is the thing was that there was kind of more of this discussion of like we're gonna tell things in as many sets are needed.
00:34:55
Speaker
And then the only time we really had like a multi, well, until now, after they made that announcement, the only time we really got that was Ravnica. Right. Again. Because we needed another four sets on Ravnica. Right. But it was just funny because there was all these like, okay, we're not, we're, we're going to break ourselves free. If we need more time, we'll stay there for as long as we need. But then.
00:35:20
Speaker
Yeah, we get this like, as you've been saying, Alex, the reason it feels like a breakneck ramp up is like, we're on Kaldheim, we get Vorn to collect, but we're there for so short. We try to fill all nine realms, whichever version they're using in. We're on Neon Dynasty, we're there basically for Tamiyo to get completed, we're gone. And I think that maybe if we had more of that, I guess if the walls are broken down in a way that it's not just like only
00:35:49
Speaker
certain things can enter the blind attorneys or there are other ways to planeswalk that we can have some either more time or more time with some of these characters that aren't the planeswalkers. I think this has been my biggest complaint was with the idea of a gate watch is we lost
00:36:07
Speaker
the legends. We have all these legends now and that's kind of cool and a lot of that's from a mechanical standpoint to do with Commander, but we would get all of these legends in like Slobad, right? Slobad is like the hero of Mirrodin. He is not a planeswalker. That's what we had for so many years that we swung to then the story revolved around the planeswalkers. The legends interacted with them, but they're still the planeswalkers.
00:36:35
Speaker
And I would love to see like Slobad the hero, you know what I mean? Like that piece of it to me would be going back to that, yeah.
00:36:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's, I don't know, it's interesting to kind of think about how the story tells, because you go all the way back, and in the beginning of the game, the Planeswalkers were too powerful to be characters that showed up a lot. And so your main cast for the first big story arc was the Weatherlight crew. And they had the Weatherlight that could travel to other planes. And so that's how you have this crew of mortals who are on the Weatherlight doing the thing.
00:37:14
Speaker
And then you sort of, they did this for a little while, then we have, dip around a couple of different planes, and then we get the time spiral block where they change the nature of the multiverse. Planeswalkers can, you know, planeswalkers are no longer, you know, god-like powers, they're just... These were god's worlds!
00:37:37
Speaker
And so they're just people. That sounds like it might have been aimed at insulting a hero that is going to go up to save us all. Yeah, Ugin might make an appearance. I don't know. That's true. Let's see. I'm just worried he shows up and tries to put the Phyrexians in a box. It's like, come on. He moves us to the prison realm. It did. That's the second time.
00:38:06
Speaker
why are you still trying this he puts him in the present realm and then like in a box labeled things that we don't need do not like just like like like like too too important to throw out but who knows if we'll need him and then just leaves it in a corner i mean that's what they did with bolus yeah
00:38:38
Speaker
Okay. I was like, I have no clue where to go. Yeah.
00:38:47
Speaker
Phil gave that statement appropriate pause and wait. I'm a little scared to kind of think about that for a moment. And then you can just let Hobbs suffer. I mean, they did do it with the Eldrazi too. They just ducked Emrakul and the Moon until it's too important. Don't throw it out. I've been thinking about that. Yeah.
Community Concerns on Major Changes
00:39:11
Speaker
So like i guess with what mark rosewater said was basically this is gonna be a major shake up and that's why. People said to both like mechanically and story so there is kind of this belief right that is this gonna fundamentally change.
00:39:29
Speaker
something about the structure of the game like the legend is a cool like the legends being able to read crossover what else could it be like I don't even I'm trying to picture because and I want to bring this up because
00:39:44
Speaker
This is as good a time as any. So if people know our really good friend, Biblio Voor Orc, Orcish librarian. Rob is an amazing human being. He's been on the show many times. He had a post the day that kind of this announcement that came out that said,
00:40:02
Speaker
I can't think of a better display for the community's total collapse of confidence in Wotzi than the fact that as far as he can kind of tell, and we can always talk about, you know, like what you get to see. Maro's teaser that March of the Machines will change magic forever has generated little excitement. He actually says approximately zero excitement versus 100% dread.
00:40:26
Speaker
We know that war of the spark led to like, I mean, it led to people stopping making content on this very show. There's talks of like changing magic forever.
00:40:41
Speaker
Are we talk if we're really talking about that like you the mechanical side is something that becomes important as we've talked about with the breakneck speed and just New mechanics and how things operate and if you're fundamentally changing that at some point it's a different game or it could be a different game and
00:40:58
Speaker
I will say I am seeing more entrenched players that are not just saying like, I'm going to leave magic, but have actually made moves to even sell off parts of collections and, you know, step back. We talked about even on this show last week, you know, relationship with the game may change.
00:41:18
Speaker
And I do think that there's something in what Orcish is saying here with I have trepidation on what this means on changing things forever on both sides.
00:41:29
Speaker
It's been a long time since they've had a very large rules overhaul. I have trouble thinking of what they could do at this point to simplify things further or clean things up. They've gotten rid of a lot of the old baggage already and I don't see
00:41:52
Speaker
To me, I'm not seeing something like a 10th edition rules change coming at this point where they revamp a lot of the fundamental rules of how things work. So people know that would be like mana burn, damage on the stack. Yeah. I'm trying to remember what else. First change to the legend rule, I think. They changed the legend rule several times before it ended up where it is today. That would have been a later one, but yeah. I know the most recent change happened
00:42:25
Speaker
That was where you couldn't use things anymore as like doom blades. Yes, you couldn't use them as doom blades I remember my poor guys of Saint Trafft getting killed repeatedly by somebody else playing a guy's Saint Trafft
00:42:41
Speaker
Planeswalker? Well, there was that. Either way. They engineered all the Planeswalkers. Was 10th also where were certain things like Lifelink and Deathtouch got messed with? That might be it. Trample. Some of that key. With Deathtouch. Yeah. Change to, yeah. But either way, it's been a while. I think six was the big creature type cleanup, right? It was. Yeah. And six was when they got rid of interrupts and put damage on the stack to begin with.
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah, so like it's been a while you're like we have not had a huge overhaul and yeah
00:43:17
Speaker
No, just a few smaller things. It's more like things getting keyboarded has been... Yeah, it's one of our common ones. You know, tweaks to the legendary world, plane to walker damage change when they switch things to any target. Yep, that's what I... Yeah, you're right. There hasn't been a big one. There's been a bunch of smaller things that... And very, very narrow slices have a huge effect, but it's within narrow slices.
00:43:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's that that's the last big one so it's possible we have something like that, but it doesn't seem likely Yeah, cuz that that was a cleaning up a lot of the old stuff like died for the first few years was a little
00:44:02
Speaker
all over the place. I was just actually playing D&D yesterday with some friends, a couple, most of whom play magic and one of whom was a judge for a long time. I don't know if he still is, but old school player. And yeah, we were kind of talking about like, yeah, early rules just kind of didn't exist. Like the revolution was them making a rule set and then tweaking it here and there. But I don't know, I mean,
00:44:28
Speaker
Yeah, I... I'm not sure what I... And it's so hard to tell, because would you consider adding Planeswalkers as the first new card type for a long time, the first new permanent type since the game? Yeah, they added Planeswalker and Tribal, although Tribal... I don't think Tribal really deserves to be a card type that was... No.
00:44:49
Speaker
That was a weird technology thing. Yeah. With like giving creature abilities to cards so that you could count things and. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I understand why it happened. It just seemed like. I agree. I think that only was its own card type because of the weird ways the rules. They were trying to do something. The rules wouldn't really let happen. I don't know. It's possible that if.
00:45:16
Speaker
Things were similar now as they were then that might have been like a silver border experiment first Before it became an actual black border thing They were just gonna legalize all silver border cards Right like outside of like so like adding something that is a completely different type of card that that could be a forever type. Yeah, um You know honey in all planes walkers can now be commanders which would be them taking on
00:45:46
Speaker
way I don't think I mean that that like they're very happy to not mess be the ones to say that they're gonna do a rule set that's different than the rules committee. So I don't think Mark Rosewater would be as involved with that unless it was just kind of the like
00:46:02
Speaker
they no longer are different for some reason. But I don't know. Maybe the change will just be giving white legendaries the same amount of Texas green legendaries change magic fundamentally forever. Green. It turns out green no longer gets everything. We admit we heard you. We did too much in the 90s for blue. We moved it to green. Now
00:46:28
Speaker
30 years later, another color is going to get a chance. I mean, it's talking about block structure earlier, Hobbs, it's possible that that may be more the angle they're talking about, because those have been more recent changes that have been have had larger effect on the game. I mean, again, it's like the planes work. I think it depends kind of how you wanted to find it, how you want to look at it. But messing with the block structure is something they could do.
00:46:55
Speaker
to quote unquote change the game in a major way. I don't know. I don't know how they'd want to do it because I know the three set blocks definitely had problems that I don't think they've solved. Maybe they found a way to solve it, but I doubt it. So maybe there's in the two set blocks. I don't know if that's what they want to do either.
00:47:20
Speaker
From a story point of view, I'm thinking the most likely thing is that they de-emphasize planeswalkers. They seem to be cleaning house on the roster of planeswalkers, which is probably one that we're doing because they introduce a new one on most every set and then most of them never show up again. And a lot of supplemental products too.
00:47:46
Speaker
yeah so um i have a feeling we're going to see that cast um this might just be retiring the whole gate watch concept entirely it's been de-emphasized over the last few years um but it's still pretty cool the story um with you know getting things like
00:48:11
Speaker
Gatewatch story, even if the cast of characters have changed. And depending on how they do it, I wouldn't mind them sort of decentralizing it, if that makes sense. Maybe having several smaller clusters of planes of actors who kind of know each other. Maybe some who are more active Gatewatch team, superhero team-ish, and some that are just like friends who hang out, who sometimes are like, oh, there's something we got to go take care of.
00:48:35
Speaker
Like, I wouldn't mind. I liked the playing characters as characters who could come back, but there was a whole Gatewatch fatigue because there was a point where it was like, do we really got to see Jace again on this plane? Can we just see someone else come here to solve the problem?
00:48:53
Speaker
And I think they already shifted a lot. I mean, you look at the last few sets, and part of it is driven by more of a focus on diversity. It's where Kaya and Taferi have become much more central figures in the last couple of years than they had been previously. And just in general, we've gotten more Vivian than we've gotten a group.
00:49:22
Speaker
And I do think that's been part of it, but where they go next. Yeah, that's where I'm thinking like, that's where I'm like, like, because I am trying to think of this as being a fundamental change. And I have to admit, I am nervous and scared. I'm trying to talk through this. I'm going to link that orcish post because I do think it is I even posted in there my my kind of just fear because
00:49:47
Speaker
There has been kind of a loss of trust because we see this is the hard part right like it's been building the trust we know that it takes time and then. Things happen and not always just wizard's things i mean we're talking i think more to do with.
00:50:01
Speaker
I'm going to go broader and go Hasbro because or not and not even just magic,
Trust Issues with Wizards of the Coast
00:50:08
Speaker
right? Like even if we want to go to Wizards, we're talking D and D stuff that people don't know. There's been things that possibly came out where it looked like they might be tightening ways for that with people to be able to make open content with D and D a game that's been, you know, you could basically be open content for a long time. Uh, I mean, well, like theoretically, I guess almost forever with home brews and.
00:50:29
Speaker
Well, and the way it was written, there were a number of companies that built their own stuff. A, that was built in D&D, but also then built their own stuff on their own systems, their own products that it looked like might be affected now somehow. And so it was... There's a lot of mistrust. And some of this mistrust comes from the
00:50:53
Speaker
I think we're seeing, and this goes back to Alex, you don't like this type of story. I think there's been some missteps with manipulation that I personally don't choose or like. And I think we've seen more of a commitment to putting their money where their mouth is when it comes to things like diversity, when it, you know, like we had this discussion with Neon Dynasty, we've heard for years that changes are coming and then changes have happened. We're getting story ahead of
00:51:23
Speaker
spoilers now i mean mostly i mean they released the nahiri's the nahiri card about 30 minutes after the story came out okay this has been weird because there's been leaks and stuff like well name them yeah with meriden and but anyway yes but at least we are not getting like
00:51:45
Speaker
all the cards and then we get the limited story. Yeah. Well, that was the, that was the, were the spark thing where it was like, they did the, we got the cards and we got the like little video. Yeah. How long weeks I think before the book was available. And then, and then the story that was supposed to be the prequel story didn't even come out until later and they, they, they shipped it in email snippets.
00:52:20
Speaker
Yes. So we've seen that they have made changes though. You know, like there was a kind of Nick Kelman is actually gone as we've.
00:52:27
Speaker
You know, like, like, we are getting side stories. Squeak, we got a story. Slobad's getting a store who had a story or at least part of, you know, is involved with it. Like we are getting more and else the label on like main storyline side story. So we're getting stuff like that, right? Like we're seeing those as changes. These are. I think net positives, but they're still when somebody like Mark Rosewater says change magic forever.
00:52:54
Speaker
There's reason to be afraid. Yes. Oh yeah, I agree. I am nervous and we've got a couple of months to see how this goes before the whole thing plays out.
00:53:13
Speaker
We've had to listen to Magic Is Dying for like ever. The thing is, and I guess it's like we could have a discussion about maybe magic never doesn't fully die, but it no longer becomes magic and it becomes something that most people, it becomes something that maybe
00:53:36
Speaker
appeals to different demographic or a different like only new players and you know maybe that is the switch that they've been doing stuff that they feel has been meant to appeal to both older and new players and that's not sustainable any longer so we're gonna just continue trying to appeal to new players mainly who knows that is something that could change my relationship with magic but it could also be a new beginning
00:54:03
Speaker
These aren't fully formed thoughts, they're just things that have been coming up to mind lately, so.
Reevaluating Personal Engagement
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah, it's, you know, this is kind of a good time to reevaluate, you know, how we engage with the game, that game changes, but so do we. And that's our show for today. You can find all of the hosts on Twitter for now. Hobbs can be found at HobbsQ, Tay can be found at Tayatransends, and Alex can be found at Mel underscore Chronicler.
00:54:30
Speaker
Feel free to send us any questions, comments, thoughts, hopes, and dreams to the Goblin Lord Pod on Twitter or email us at goblinlordpodcast at gmail.com.
00:54:40
Speaker
If you would like to support your friendly neighborhood Gob's Hugs, our link tree can be found on our Twitter account and in the description of today's show. This has everything from various discount codes to the link from our Patreon. The music for today's show was by Wintergotten, who can be found at vintergotten at bandcamp.com. The art was done by Steven Raphael, who can be found at Steve Ruffle on Twitter. Cob and Lore is proud to be presented by Hipsters of the Coast as part of their growing forthos content.
00:55:08
Speaker
Check them out on Twitter at hipsters MTG or online at hipstersofthecoast.com. Thank you for listening and remember goblins like snowflakes are only dangerous in numbers.