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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 69 - Get that Butyrate out of here!
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Hosts: Joel Engelberth, Tom Graf and Travis Murie
Chicago Pinball Expo has come and gone and we had a blast! In this episode we discuss Tom’s newest game as well as our initial impressions of Winchester Mystery House. This leads into a discussion on what Barrels of Fun and Spooky are doing right and how 3D sculpts add to the feeling of quality within a pinball machine. Joel wants to talk code again so we dive into Star Wars Fall of the Empire and the challenges it presents on using all the provided assets but keeping the game simple enough to understand. Is it possible to make a modern day fan layout fun or do playfields have to be dynamic? We also discussed our thoughts on The Walking Dead Remake reveal. Honestly we talked about a bunch of different stuff and I hate writing these summaries so hopefully you ignore them entirely and just click play. Enjoy!
Thanks again for all the support everyone:)
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Travis' stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePinballCompany
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Shoutout to Jackson Gee and his incredible artwork. jacksongee.com
Shoutout to Brad Johanson and his company Alter Creative Media for his intro video. Altercreativemedia.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Significance
00:00:04
Speaker
We're three guys who like the Tauntin Ball. So we came up with a clever name. We're Joel and Travis Dom who Tauntin Ball. And we call ourselves Triple Drain.
00:00:15
Speaker
Triple Drain. Triple Drain. We're Triple Triple Drain.
00:00:24
Speaker
triphold We're here. We're here. um This is a big episode. Big episode, guys. I don't know if you noticed the title. It is episode 69. 69. Nice. That's all I needed. That's all I
00:00:40
Speaker
I know. It's better than six, seven. So you're saying this is last episode of Triple Drain then. We all agreed four years ago. 69, out on top. 69 episodes. Yep. yeah Well, or bottom. It depends. it depends which side of the equation you're on. don't 69 is the definition of teamwork, right? I mean, that's really what we're, you know, we're crushing it.
00:00:59
Speaker
Tom's like, shit, I do it from the side. i don't know what you guys are talking about. but There's three of us. I'll just watch. wait a second are you inferring Joel I hey I'm happy to be a part of this team that's what I'm talking about this podcast his beard would be way too scruffy no oh lord sorry oh my goodness shalon yeah I regret it I regret going down and even mentioning it but um anyways uh
00:01:30
Speaker
let's just lean down all Let's just lead into the topic that I know everybody wants to talk about.
Tom's Pinball Adventures
00:01:36
Speaker
And that is Tom has made ah an amazing decision. He's made an amazing decision that all of his close friends support him in.
00:01:45
Speaker
And that is bought a new pinball machine. Tom bought a new pinball machine. Tom, please tell the world what your new pinball machine and why it was ah ah it was an incredible decision. I got an X-Men, Uncanny X-Men and Pro.
00:02:00
Speaker
That a boy, that a boy. Thank you. Yep. Thank you, everybody. Travis, you support that decision, right? Oh, yeah. i'm Just buy all the new Inbox pinball machines you can. Well, shit. Wait, wait. You bought it in Inbox. This was new Inbox. Damn, never mind.
00:02:16
Speaker
Okay. Never mind. For people that don't know, I got i've i got heckled by multiple people when I bought my X-Men LE. Multiple. Because they're like, how in the world did you not buy a Jaws or a Kong or a this or that? Because were talking about those games so much. Then out nowhere, you're like, oh, oh well, instead Jaws, I'm going to get an X-Men.
00:02:38
Speaker
Yeah. yeah so You're like, I think the code is going to catch up at some point. It's one thing to be heckled by you, Travis, but to have industry professionals be like, all right, you bought an X-Men.
00:02:49
Speaker
I was like, look, it's like a, like it just kind of a, a shot to the heart, you know? And here's the deal. I don't regret it. I don't regret it. No shame. I like what the heart wants. like heartbu And what I love is the fact that Tom's heart wanted an X-Men pro.
00:03:09
Speaker
yeah That's true. do you how's that How's that X-Men Pro treating you? ah Actually, really good. It shoots really well. yeah The price on it was fantastic.
00:03:21
Speaker
You got a I have no complaints. Yeah, X-Men Pro for under $5,000, that's pretty... o Edit that out. No. well oh yeah. You're going to sell it? No. No, I'm just kidding. You can leave it in. i don't care. yeah um my heart my feelings aren't hurt.
00:03:37
Speaker
just do I'm just effing with you guys. you can say whatever price. i don't care. Tom, do you care about Travis's feelings? because No. I mean, that... No, I think that's... Yeah, okay. And neither does... What's his name? Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. We forgot about this. What's the what's the guy's name on our on our YouTube comments? I usually don't pay attention to it.
00:03:58
Speaker
Oh, we had the best YouTube comment ever. Yeah. Somebody find that. I was like laughing my ass off. It was perfect. Okay. I gotta find that. But, um, so Tom, when you bought, when you bought X-Men, one of the first things i ask is how's the plunge in your plunge is fantastic.
00:04:14
Speaker
Perfect. And I don't, did you mess with it at all? Did you do anything are you just got lucky? It was already messed with. So perfect. Tom in six words or more, how much are you enjoying X-Men?
00:04:28
Speaker
A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. All right.
Carl D'Angelo's Pinball Innovations
00:04:35
Speaker
Can you tell us why? you tell us what is it about X-Men that enjoying? In seven words or more, can you tell us why?
00:04:42
Speaker
No, I, I, I wanted to explore the code more, which needs some work still. One of the modes is foobar.
00:04:55
Speaker
Yep. Like it's called FUBAR or just is FUBAR? No, it's broken. It's the rogue one, right? Yeah. rachel yeah What's broken about it? It doesn't, the signals are supposed to move. You know how it used to like, yeah, the sentinels used to move. They don't move at all. They're just like, they'd chill out. They just got tired. They're sitting right here.
00:05:17
Speaker
I love how Joel's looking it down. He didn't see that. That's awesome. I'm sorry. I'm looking for that amazing YouTube comment. It's because it's worth it. It's almost like we should have had a pre-production meeting.
00:05:28
Speaker
Oh, I should have been. ah that's That's what I'm going to be doing. It's fine. Here, here. Homie's probably watching us again. Just like copy paste your comment down on episode 69. Yeah, we'll pin it.
00:05:39
Speaker
like It was freaking hilarious. So... well I'm personally enjoying X-Men. I have no regrets. And the reality is i just love the way it shoots. I got the plunge dialed in.
00:05:52
Speaker
Shout out to the Raiden mod that goes in the back. And then I put the stern fix in. I took it out. It shoots better without it. So I got my plunge where it needs to be. i put in the official stern ball hop fix for the left flipper. um And did this. This a great modification. ah a Fantastic.
00:06:12
Speaker
I did do this, which is which is something i I swapped out the um the bushings with precision flipper bushings, just the metal bushings. I still have normal flippers, but I swapped out the bushings. And that gave me now enough power that I can cradle the left flipper and I can hit the midtown shot.
00:06:30
Speaker
And now that I've done those things, like it shoots like I love the way it shoots. The kinetic satisfaction in that game is off the off the charts. I love I love the way it shoots. And I just, I'm still holding out on the code.
00:06:41
Speaker
I'm still holding out on the code and really hoping that it. I found the comment. Oh, please. Oh, this is fantastic. Please read it out loud. I think you got it. Share it with the class. I should say who it tell yeah let's it's from. Let's give them credit. per Purple cow milk.
00:06:58
Speaker
Tom sounds like a smart guy trying to sound dumb. Travis sounds like a dumb guy trying to sound smart. and And Joel sounds like he's just happy to be included in the conversation.
00:07:12
Speaker
Really interesting vibe.
00:07:15
Speaker
it's incredible i mean that yeah i want to put that on a poster it's such a good comment i'm not offended in any way and i hope neither of you are because i want to put it on merch that's what i want to do uh whatever the next if if we ever whether twippies or something like that if they're like hey can you give us a bio can you give us a little blurb of what your podcast is i think i'm just gonna copy paste that yeah seriously that catches it perfectly that's four years like wrapped up right there 69 episodes yeah well done okay well x-men uh we're still in a weird spot with x-men we're still waiting on accessories we're still waiting on that code i mean there's there's a lot left that needs to be added in that game no nimrod mode no senator kelly no master mode master mold um
00:08:05
Speaker
yeah i don't know i mean i'm i'm hopefully optimistic 0.94 so they got time that's what i'm gonna keep telling myself they got time still got time time yeah ah what oh okay so now that we got that out of the way it's not at the two-year mark it hasn't been vaulted yet they got time um let's talk about Okay, I have to give Travis props.
00:08:28
Speaker
And what I'm giving him props for was, and and this is what's frustrating, is because he knew it. He knew it the whole time he was he was playing he was playing dumb, right? um which Which was, were talking pre-Expo, and we were talking about just overall game design. And Travis asked the question, what elite level players are currently designing pinball machines?
00:08:51
Speaker
And we sat there and and the answer at the time was Keith Elwin. Keith Elwin was really the only one that we could say, what elite level player is designing pinball machines? ah Because the question was, you know, there are some people that think ah some of these pinball designers are only designing games for tournament players or or they don't have the right audience in mind. And Travis pointed out that when it comes to tournament games, the ones they have to tweak the most are Keith Elwin games. So that seems kind of contradictory, right? That the tournament level guy is actually making the ones that are kind of worse for tournaments, but actually get played all the time for tournaments.
00:09:23
Speaker
ah Well, he's saying all this. And like three days later, it's announced that Carl D'Angelo, an elite level player, designed Winchester Mystery House. And you knew about it.
00:09:35
Speaker
You knew about it the whole time. I have no comment on those accusations. No comment. Well, hey, Carl, we I would consider Carl a friend. I know he's a personal friend for both of you guys as well.
00:09:48
Speaker
I mean, huge shout out to Carl for, for one, doing this. I mean, that what a, I don't know, like i'm I'm proud of the guy for like, for, um for putting his neck out there and and committing, like trying to, trying to add to the pinball hobby beside, you know, beyond what he already does between his amazing tournament streams and is in his YouTube streams or Twitch streams, like to actually build and be a part of building machine, huge props. But on top of all that, it it looks like he designed an amazing game.
00:10:17
Speaker
mean, it sold out in what, less than two days? Tom Graff, you have one coming your way, don't you? C. That means gestural in Spanish. So tell me, Tom, why what what what made you pull the trigger? was it Was it after seeing the game or just you want to support Carl? like what it Well, it was a combination of both. But I mean, I saw the game. I'm like, oh, this is really cool. And then like designed by Carl D'Angelo. It's like, oh, well, then I'm getting it
00:10:48
Speaker
So if you would, if it would have just been barrels of fun, Winchester mystery house, Carl's name was not mentioned at all. So you assume it was the same, you know, David or Travis. I could have possibly possibly still bought it, but I think Carl was a big influence.
00:11:06
Speaker
Definitely. i agree. I a hundred percent agree. And um we were all at expo. I had some awesome conversation with you. Not to put any pressure on you, Carl. no no awesome
Evolving Pinball Experiences
00:11:18
Speaker
conversations with david vaness and the barrels of fun team and i like honestly i think they got their i think barrels of fun now has their keith elwin like i think the the way that that carl d'angelo's brain works he does i mean he designed that entire game there were i was talking to travis who works not this travis a smart travis travis that works at barrels not the dumb one not the dumb one yeah yeah good travis uh he's an engineer and like i asked him i was like how involved was the barrels team in this design because carl d'angelo is not a mechanical engineer he's not an electrical engineer he's like an it professional at a school like how much involvement did you get in this physical and he's like we did very little like carl taught himself solid works carl was supplying all this we you know would help him with tooling or help him with these little things but like that is almost entirely carl's
00:12:10
Speaker
baby and that that's unbelievable to to have that level of design right out the gate but travis i think you had some inside baseball here or saw a little of this i mean what's your view on on all this with carl i mean taking on this game well so okay to be crystal clear just to get it out there carl was never the one that told me like we we talked to carl all the time and yeah right he literally gave no clue to this at all. So we'll just get that, get that one out of the way, but no. So the game itself, like as soon as I saw it, like I knew it was going to be an absolute banger. And the funny part is, is that the actual theme, I know the theme to it immediately just because Monica's made me watch the movie and there was like a TV show or something about that. So i was familiar with that.
00:12:57
Speaker
And to me, it's like, as soon as I saw it and I realized everything that was involved in it, then i knew immediately, like, i I just figured this sucker's gonna sell out instantly.
00:13:09
Speaker
And the reason being is because not only that it looks cool, but who's behind it. And I think in the pinball industry, brand is a powerful thing, a very powerful thing, especially if you have less units being produced.
00:13:24
Speaker
I mean, obviously it's like, what, 500, something odd, something like that. So, I mean, you mix those two things together, you're you're cooking with gas at that point, right? It's going to be a dynamite thing happening, but overall the game itself, it played fun.
00:13:39
Speaker
And what I personally enjoyed about I probably played it three or four times at expo. And what I enjoyed about it is i actually, I found it challenging to play. And not not meaning like all the shots were breaking or anything like that.
00:13:53
Speaker
I'm just meaning it was ah unique layout in which there was only a couple of shots that reminded me of other shots. Then there was other shots that were just in places that didn't necessarily feel familiar.
00:14:06
Speaker
as much, right? So for example, the upper flipper, whenever the diverter that's up top, whenever it turned and you're able to hit it through, I can't remember if it's a spinner or just like a backwards, almost U-turn type shot back down to a flipper that felt pretty like a great shot.
00:14:23
Speaker
And the reason for that is, is I like, I personally feel like the U-turn shot, especially the scoop in the middle is just overused so much right now in pinball, like the past 10, 15 years or so that that felt like a great new take.
00:14:36
Speaker
What's ah something similar, but familiar. What's a, can you give me that shot in another game? Well, like like it's in like rick and Morty, like something like that, where the locks come just like a horseshoe. just Yeah, just, yeah, yeah, yep. Just like a quick, yeah. I call it U-Term. Yeah, just a quick horseshoe shot. So, I mean, and there's different versions of it, of course, you know, like Mandalorian, they have a version of that.
00:14:58
Speaker
mean, there's just, there's different mini, mini versions of it. So it's kind of like, that's, that's what pinball design essentially becomes. It's like of Scooby-Doo. It's like all this we do. Yeah, yeah. It's for shoe shots, yeah. yeah and it's just it's Yeah, and it's been done a lot. So to me, that felt like that was a good take on that type of shot. But yeah, I mean, overall, it just it felt like it was challenging.
00:15:18
Speaker
And it's rare that there's a game that feels that challenging, but it just felt like you wanted to keep coming back for more to try something new. Yeah, yeah. And the in the thing I could figure out too with the ramps,
00:15:31
Speaker
is it just felt like the ramps were, I mean, and there's been ramps in those spots. Like, don't get me wrong. There's nothing innovative. Like, oh, so you're putting a ramp in a brand new spot, but it's just the fact that the location where they were at, that kind of changed the dynamics a little bit more considering how the middle kind of was, right? Because everything's kind of offset to the right-hand side, whereas the left-hand side, there's more shots close to you in proximity. So you had to kind of plan some things out. And I found that interesting. I wasn't sure.
00:15:59
Speaker
exactly how it would play all things considered because it felt like the flippers were purposefully sagged down a little bit so that kind of changed the dynamic a little bit also in terms of ball control and your flippers or you know getting a live catch or something like that but you know overall i'm excited to see how it's going to play i didn't really know the code at all or the rules yeah and Honestly, I didn't pay attention to the rules at all. all I just act like was a white wood.
00:16:25
Speaker
I just wanted to flip shots and just see how it played. But it was fun. I enjoyed it. completely agree. It's refreshing not to see fan layout done. as It's refreshing to see different things being done. And especially like that turntable, which changes your shot. I mean, that's freaking fantastic.
00:16:46
Speaker
I yeah completely agree. Doing a lot with an area in which you, you only have so much real estate. Like we talked about this before, right? There's only so much real estate underneath that glass on that play field. So when you can figure out how to manipulate the ball and actually show different paths that way,
00:17:04
Speaker
I mean, that to me, that is fun. And it's kind of interesting because I feel like to an extent, obviously it's not the same, but I feel like to an extent, Harry Potter kind of does that as well, but it's just blocked off so much by so many sculpts on top. It's just kind of hard to see ball paths. Right. I mean, you have the big diverter, right. With the stairs. Right. And you can kind of track it, but at the same time, it's kind of blocked off by so much. Whereas with,
00:17:29
Speaker
with um carl's game with with that it's it's like you can tell where the ball's gonna go generally and that kind of makes it a little bit more i don't i guess kinetically satisfying like you were saying tom just because you can see it all the way through and you can see the changes rapidly happening so for me i like the idea of that but that being said i did play harry potter a ton too because that game shoots fantastic as well so don't let anybody think i'm just like crapping on harry potter with that it's no, no, I didn't. It's, I would say what's, what stood out to me. So I've only, i literally played one game of Winchester at, at expo. Cause the line was really long and I knew i should be streaming it here within the next few weeks. Um,
00:18:13
Speaker
My initial thought was I was going to stream it like a week or two after Expo, but they took the game. They took Zach's game. He has number one. They took it all the way back to Barrels of Fun and basically went through the whole game because they wanted to see, you know, this game got literally hundreds and hundreds of plays.
00:18:27
Speaker
What's loose? What's tight? What's worn? What's this? You know, how do we learn from this? um So that's really cool that they did that to know, you know, where we need to do X, y or Z for the future games. So. Hopefully I'll get it soon.
00:18:38
Speaker
But I only played one game on it and I did the same thing Travis did. I really wasn't focused on the code at all. It was just treating this as a whitewood. Let me find all the shots and to play an entire game. And no, I didn't hit every shot. And it's not because it's poorly designed or I'm bricking everything. It's just there's that much packed into the game.
00:18:56
Speaker
And the way that that turntable will change, you know, your upper loop shot, your upper flipper shot could could go one way with the turntable or could go another way with the turntable or all of a sudden, boom, it It fed the ball and there's actually like kind of a left orbit that goes all the way down the left side of the game.
00:19:11
Speaker
And next thing I know, my my lower flipper just got fed with a shot from the upper flipper. Like what but just happened? You know, it's just that type of stuff is so exciting to me that if you have that type of layout that's that dynamic and that could that can adjust or, you know, divert itself to make so many different ball paths,
00:19:30
Speaker
you know they can make really creative modes with that and you're going to have really creative and unique moments in that game and i and i have full confidence that carl d'angelo and the way that his brain works because he's taken full ownership of the code and the structure of this of this game the code design that he's going to really give it his all with unique modes and the modes are based on the different rooms and stuff and I am pumped. This is one of those games that I am, I am so excited to stream and play. And I'm, I'm just so excited that it's out there.
00:19:59
Speaker
um which says a lot for a, for, you know, ah boutique, a smaller company with a run of only 500, like for me to be this excited about an a known, like a license for me that I've, I don't care about. I've never heard of, like I am pumped to play this game.
00:20:16
Speaker
um And that says a lot, like, cause I'm, it's not the license that sold me. It's, it's what I'm seeing in the game, the layout, the code, everything. So really excited for Winchester, ah mystery house and, and what's coming with that. And I, and I know there's a lot more to come.
00:20:30
Speaker
Um, Yeah. Dune. Do you either of you guys, were you able to play Dune at Expo? you have any new or, or, or has your view on that game changed at all with a chance to play it more?
00:20:42
Speaker
I played it once at Expo, but I also, Lumberjack Johnny's just got there. So I've put some plays on it and I, I think it's fantastic. I've actually been debating on getting one now.
00:20:56
Speaker
Nice. he's nice Yeah. It's it's a fun game once you kind of understand what's going on and, So what what's standing out to you? Like what you say it's fun is it layout rules? what like what Shots, layout rules, everything. i mean, it's it's just, it like I said, it's just a different feeling, you know, like where you want to explore the game and and it's not so much just repeating shots and things like that.
00:21:24
Speaker
Sure. What about you, Travis? Have you played? Did you play Dune anymore? I mean, I've played it enough. It's just like I love the atmosphere of it. So, I mean, and we talked about this before. Dune itself, in terms of the theme, I'm not a huge fan of it. I've watched the films like once, I think. And, you know, I think as long if you're a Dune fan, think you'll love the game itself. But the atmosphere.
00:21:48
Speaker
that they can create with their house system. Like to me, that's a unique thing. The lighting, horizontal yeah aerial lighting. Is that what it is? Yep. And I think that's like how it goes from day to night. I think that's pretty cool. yeah And that just, that adds theme immersion to me. I think that's kind of what they've, they've gotten. Yeah. The sandworm part's cool, but that's just yeah for me as a player, just when the lights change like that and you can kind of, you almost feel like something is, it's not just, um,
00:22:16
Speaker
I guess a massive light show just blinding you or anything like that. Right. It's something that's kind of unique and it just, I don't know. and That's the best way I can describe it. just gives you a different feeling when you're playing, when it has that, those changes that come with whatever the game states that.
00:22:32
Speaker
When it initially came out, I mean, the third first thing that I was really drawn to was the actual dune sculptures on on the play field, like over those ramps and stuff. I mean, reminded me of Whitewater. It's just kind of immersive and cosmetically nice, you know.
00:22:50
Speaker
Yep, the 3D sculpts. And quick side comment. I know Tom just, ah he just bought the fourth Stumbler mod, this the fourth building. and it's And it's amazing how, like I have all them in my Godzilla.
00:23:04
Speaker
and it's And Godzilla is an amazing game. We all agree upon that. And Godzilla, in terms of booty right or like flat plastics, you know, the the back panel is already kind of sculpted. There's 3D buildings or whatnot. Like I, I definitely never felt like a Godzilla had a ton of flat plastic, but it's amazing when you start adding in three more 3D mods, how just that it just takes a game to a whole nother level.
00:23:29
Speaker
Like, yeah, it's really makes a game stand out. Yeah. To piggyback off that. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And to piggyback off that. So we did a delivery to a house just last week and he has a full Stern lineup.
00:23:44
Speaker
right? But every game he has decided to deck out. And when I say deck out, I mean, these are like what you would think it would look like. Heavily modded.
00:23:55
Speaker
Heavily modded, but it's tasteful, right? yeah Sure, sure. Like, I was looking at this thinking, okay, it might be overboard, but the more I looked at it, it's It's almost as if... Because you couldn't see flat plastics hardly at all. And there was stuff that was... Whether it was 3D sculpt or however he did it, it almost felt like the play field itself like was just coming alive.
00:24:18
Speaker
like His Godzilla had the right mods on it that just made sense were for what the situation was. His King Kong had the same thing where had this jungle theme with palm trees up and different trees in certain areas. I'm just like, okay, it kind of feels like...
00:24:33
Speaker
you know, you're actually getting in that world and I can feel myself starting to go that direction. I know in the past when I've seen stuff like that, that wasn't done nearly as well. I just kind of, I don't know. It almost felt like, like I even tested that out one time on one of my games just to see like what all the hoopla was. And freaking looked like a third grade project. Like it was just a total failure. And I'm like, what am I even doing right now?
00:24:54
Speaker
But there are certain... Monaco's like fifth grade project at least. Oh, yeah. yeah but yeah But what I'm saying is is now, obviously, like this day and age in 2025, I think just the mods that have come out now, it's like everybody's game has stepped up.
00:25:09
Speaker
And it's almost people seeing how Barrels is doing things, how Spooky is doing things. They see some of the stuff that Stern's putting out and they see some the stuff that that Barrels... Like anybody that's in the game right now putting stuff out that...
00:25:22
Speaker
they're kind of taking those ideas and just really running with it. And it's, yeah, I get it though. There's no license restrictions, so they can pretty much do what they want at will with it. So there is some of that, but it is interesting to see a Stern and pinball machine kind of go that direction. And it totally changes just what it is. Like I saw jaws like that. I saw,
00:25:45
Speaker
um Was a Godzilla like that? I saw a rush like that. And it just, yeah, it was, it was interesting. So for me in my head, I'm just kind of like, all right, what's going to happen to the landscape? If Stern ever decides that we're going to start kind of going that direction a little bit, but still keep their same identity.
00:26:05
Speaker
And so for me, I'm just curious to see the evolution of pinball in general with that. Cause it seems like everybody else is doing it right. And they're all having, I mean, obviously they're not having success to the tens of thousands, unless you're counting like, you know, Harry Potter obviously sold thousands, but I'm curious to see at scale if this is going to be the industry-changing thing, or is this going to be the 3D TV to where it's cool for a couple years?
00:26:31
Speaker
You got it. Harry Potter felt loaded when I got the game. I remember looking it, I was like, this game feels loaded. Would there be a few areas that I could see a mod? But there are some games where the moment you get it, you look at and you're like, all right, a modder is going to replace that. modder is going to replace that. A modder is going to replace that. And I understand...
00:26:50
Speaker
the They got to sell these games and they got to make money. But when you when you hear like, oh, the game's loaded, like Evil Dead. Evil Dead has a ton of cool mechs, but it also has a ton of good sculpts. Like obviously Dune, it's it's i don't there's very few flat plastics. And the flat plastics that are in the game, the slingshots or the in-lane, out-lane, you can buy molded sculpts from Barrels of Fun to replace them.
00:27:14
Speaker
um And Labyrinth was a bunch of sculpts. I know Winchester shows a whole bunch of sculpts. um I would assume Beetlejuice is going to have a ton of sculpts.
00:27:25
Speaker
They know. Spend the money. and and immediate It just changes the perception of the game. of like Oh, these people are... oh we just heard a quack. Somebody's updating.
00:27:36
Speaker
My Godzilla just updated. Your Godzilla knows X-Men's in, so it's like, yeah, got to do this. Okay, so I got a question for you two. okay so Okay. Listeners, please keep your pitchforks down. I'm not trying to give Stern any ideas or anything like that.
00:27:51
Speaker
I'm just asking these two bozos in front of me what they think about this. Because you just mentioned what barrels does. Okay. Right? With their plastic slings, right? And then they have... So, how would you guys react?
00:28:06
Speaker
If any of these manufacturers tried to do that scale to where they had their models that they put out, but obviously because they have their bomb built in, that's what the game is. But then they decide to have their own mods,
00:28:19
Speaker
as accessories afterwards that you could put actually inside the game? Like how would we feel about that? In my opinion. Because I've wondered this and I honestly don't know how I would feel about that. If I'm buying pros, I'd say yes, absolutely. If I'm buying an l LE and you're and you're telling me to put mods in it, I would i would have a lot of reservations about that.
00:28:48
Speaker
That's what I'm curious. I feel like, I feel like the limited editions should have the mods already in it.
Pinball Mods and Accessories Debate
00:28:55
Speaker
Well, the perfect example there is an Ellie, a stern Ellie has everything you need in the game except for the top.
00:29:03
Speaker
Right. Well, shoot rod. Shooter rod, right? On some... Right, it used to have the shoot... Yeah, it's... yeah Jaws does, but X-Men does it. Well, it has both, actually.
00:29:14
Speaker
Came with both. But really, it's like, as in as an X-Men LE owner, the... I'm just trying to be cool like Tom. um the only The only thing I care about, the only thing left for me to buy for that game is the topper.
00:29:28
Speaker
So I know there are people upset if I'm going to spend that money for an LE, why I should get the topper. I do feel that toppers, though, are not everybody wants a topper. So there if if all of a sudden that was included in the LE, if the LE was now $1,500 more, but every LE came with a topper, you know there would be people that would complain that I don't want it.
00:29:47
Speaker
So, but to have that, to have that purchase, like something you could purchase, I think it's, I would, for the pro or premium buyers, you, as you guys know, there's plenty of, you guys know plenty of pro buyers that do not care about the aesthetic part of the pinball machine at all. They just want the game.
00:30:02
Speaker
They want game and they want to play it. So that's, that's a way that perceptually they're saving money, you know, I guess. So they be the best way to ask this question then would be to Tom, since he, he buys LEs here and there, like one or two of them. here in But how would how would you feel if you were buying an LE and then there was still nothing for the outside, no powder coating offered outside of that or anything like that? Like you still have everything.
00:30:30
Speaker
And the only thing offered as like an upgraded modification for pro and premium people are any type of sculpt that could have been on the l LE to it to a point.
00:30:42
Speaker
Like maybe say like 75% it or something like that. Honestly, I'd be fine with it. Well, I mean, that is, that is Dune. Like Dune their model.
00:30:55
Speaker
They call it a limited edition. They advertise it as all included. You know, like that's their hashtag, like all in or something. It was showing that we we supply it all.
00:31:06
Speaker
But then afterwards, they sell a sling plastic sculpt kit. So i don't I don't know. I mean, I read the Dune forums on ah on Pinside. I haven't been seeing people upset lately.
00:31:20
Speaker
Like, why was this not included? I don't know. But to be fair, though, that's a sling plastic. Like, if we're talking, like, what if, like, the spider on Kong looked a little bit different? You know what I mean? Or something like that.
00:31:32
Speaker
Like, that's what I'm getting at. if There's something a little bit bigger on the play field, a little bit more noticeable, or... Maybe you're enhancing the Godzilla building, kind of like what Stumbler does. yeah I've always wondered.
00:31:44
Speaker
Cosmetic, I think you're fine. If it's game changing, like obviously there are people that bought Cactus Canyon Limited Edition and then are upset that they... years later have to buy the upgrade yeah i don't think you can go game changing i think yeah i'm looking like strictly cosmetics that brings people more into the world that if somebody wants to deck out their game and add on more to it and especially if they don't want to upgrade and You know, get the mirrored back glass, get the powder coat, get the Seth and Gary Stern signed certificate authenticity. You know, if they don't want those things, totally cool. But I've just always wondered if there's room for something like that.
00:32:20
Speaker
Just because I see where pinball is starting to evolve in terms of how people are approaching some of these games in terms of what they look like, what's on them, what's under the glass for it.
00:32:32
Speaker
I'm all for... The problem with... Okay, the reason Stumbler mods are amazing is because Davey, the guy that makes Stumbler mods, is brilliant, and he found a really good way to kind of tap into...
00:32:46
Speaker
the system and made his mods interact with the game. Like, so they feel stock. They don't feel like an add-on. They, you know, the light shows interact with gameplay. And he he figured that out because he's really smart. in ah And ah the reason I like buying Stern toppers is because the toppers react to the gameplay. they they So if Stern started releasing mods for their games, like you're saying, cosmetic additions,
00:33:14
Speaker
if they're If they interact with the game, I i mean, I would love, I just, i will obviously I want the games to be better and better, but am I going to sit here and be upset about why wasn't it not included? I don't know. i I'm all for like Expression Lights, right? You can buy Expression Lights for a premium.
00:33:30
Speaker
They're not included. So some people that want them can get them. It's all cosmetic though. It's a tough thing because, i mean, I could see the community kind of coming out with backlash about it uh i did i told them to keep their pitchforks down though tom i told them to keep their pitchforks down right but yeah i mean i i guess i guess for me like the limited edition should always like have everything yes like you shouldn't have to you know
00:34:05
Speaker
buy more things into it, I guess, under under yeah under the glass. Yeah, I heard Shay. And that's kind of the questions I was asking because I think we see this to certain degrees already.
00:34:16
Speaker
So, for instance, you look at spooky games, right? You have the base model and you have to pay extra for, what is it called? The ah the better butter cabinet. yeah but Yeah, that's extra. Obviously, with Stern, toppers are not not included necessarily.
00:34:29
Speaker
So you have to pay extra for that if you want to get something to that extent. So the expression lights, right? It's not with everything. You have to pay extra for that to be included. So I feel like to certain extents that we're kind of seeing this gradually happen more and more. And I'm just curious how that envelope can get pushed until people are like,
00:34:51
Speaker
No, no, no. You can't. That's too far. You can't go that far. I think if it's all included in people are going to buy more LEs. It is nice having not having to think about all the stuff I got to add to my game.
00:35:06
Speaker
you know like like x-men already has it all it already has everything i don't have to worry about grabbing art blades expression lighting so are you saying have you not added anything to your x-men so far okay well i added because you did because you did say mud yeah yeah and then you added what well but she goes and i mean i have not added anything cosmetic we got a button for this area else let's talks
00:35:41
Speaker
I guess I got I got nothing uh let's relate it to Star Wars so you know I i bought a pro yes uh Stern saved me six hundred dollars by not allowing the expression lights to go into it Okay.
00:36:00
Speaker
Okay. And the, the art blade expression, the interior expression. Let's say they were like, Hey Tom, you could, uh, you could buy the, the Darth Vader head, the, uh, the storm trooper head, the, uh, light up, uh, uh, Jabba Jabba with the ball.
00:36:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. and And the TIE Fighter, I think those are like like the four toys on there that aren't included in the Pro. Sure. um I mean, i guess I might consider that, but I don't know if you know, again, I would, as an ah LE owner, I might be like, Hey, you know, he bought the pro. Why are you, why are you allowing him to mod out his game with the same effects?
00:36:49
Speaker
Now, maybe, maybe they would allow, or maybe they would do different things as, as add-ons, but I don't know. ah just think, I think there's a slippery slope, you know, with, with, with barrels, you have one game, everybody has the same game.
00:37:07
Speaker
ah I think it's a little different that way. Do you follow what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. i so I love what you're saying. I'm just respecting the Tom talks till Joel hits the button again. I think, yeah. i want to Hit the damn. You're a smart man.
00:37:26
Speaker
um Oh, hit buttons and it's not working. There. Oh, there we go. Okay. Yeah. Good night, everybody. Tom is ready. I got, I got nothing. So wait, Tom, why so I noticed something here. So you were mentioning Stern saved you $600. So you're saying if you would have had the option for the expression lights on your Star Wars Pro. I would have definitely bought them.
00:37:55
Speaker
I mean, there wouldn't have been a question. But yet you didn't. What was the main reason you bought the Pro over the premium? What was it that you saw in the premium that you're like, ah, it's not worth it? Because I saved $6,000, Joel.
00:38:08
Speaker
six thousand dollars Well, yeah, a Pro is 7,000 and a LE is 13. You think Tom's buying a premium, Joel? He doesn't go premium. I can't do math. I was talking premium because premium is like that. What is it? I don't have a premium. Tom doesn't even know the word premium, Joel. It's LE. I see that. Limited edition.
00:38:31
Speaker
But that's where, okay, it's easy. The math between a premium and an LE because they're essentially the same game, but it's like, okay, art blades, if you bought those yourself, that's $100. If you did your powder coating yourself, that may be $200 or $300, but then do you want to factor in having buy the new radios? Are you going to map this out? You're going to get in trouble. HD glass shaker. The powder coating. If you're going to buy all add-ons. You might as well buy the LE unless you don't want them.
00:39:01
Speaker
But that mirrored back glass, the mirrored back glass is the one thing you can't really buy. Well, the art blades are technically unique to an l LE as well, but it's like, that is the main thing. So i't that was the math I was doing in my head when I bought my X-Men LE used.
00:39:17
Speaker
I'm just like, well, shoot, if I get a new, if I get a premium and I start adding expression, this and this and this, I'm there I am. I'm already at that price. I can't believe you guys do math while buying pinball machines. oh yeah
Expression Lights and Model Impact
00:39:28
Speaker
I just tell Monica, Hey, I want to get this machine. And she either says yes or no, you know? So that's nice of her. Yeah. What I'm saying as a, as a pro owner, I, you know,
00:39:41
Speaker
I can't buy the expression lights. So, but if you could, you would, if I could, I probably would. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are you on spike three? Don't they pretty much have those lights on everything now? Or am I, I think, no, I don't know for sure.
00:39:56
Speaker
If like a pro spike three moving forward would have them. I think it's clear. I mean, they could. i would assume they could, but the cabinet. Sorry, Joel. Okay. that That's what I'm saying. Is it Joel talks now? Okay.
00:40:09
Speaker
No. God. um There's two. We just got to be clear of the expression lights in Star Wars are almost identical to inside the cabinet are almost identical to the expression lights in a Spike 2 game.
00:40:23
Speaker
So that's, but I, know what I'm seeing in walking dead, which we're going to get to those expression lights look totally different. And I, know we've only seen one spike three, um, with, with that type of expression lights. I'm curious if in that expression, like they've already advertised that that expression lights, you can, um, there's, there's one problem to the premium. There's one problem with those lights though.
00:40:46
Speaker
I would. On The Walking Dead. Go ahead and tell us about know what you're going to say, Tom. Tell about those bullets, Tom. Yeah, the bullets go one way, the lights go the other. Yes, yes, but yes, you are correct. But I'm saying the actual expression lights in that game look totally different than the expression lights in and all of Stern's previous releases.
00:41:06
Speaker
So i'm I'm curious to see moving forward if the cabinet speaker lights will be available for all models of Stern pinball machines from here on out. I don't know that answer, but it is clear that they are that they have adapted speaker expression lights will be available for all models from here on out because they've been doing that for a long time now that even in the spike two era, if you, if you're pro wants to have speaker expression lights, pretty much every new game. Do all the speaker lights for spike two work in all the games?
00:41:39
Speaker
Not necessarily. yet like turtles turtles uh they have not coded turtles the expressions gods for not avengers either no we had a customer asking us about this and asked us why why we haven't got it done yet i'm just like we're not the ones who do it i don't know what to tell you come on yeah company but okay we've we've gone on a whole lot that was a great question travis about your your mods but i just to wrap up on dune we're going way back dune has been back in the house here for the last two weeks i've i've played the heck out of it uh my brother has officially changed his stance dune is his favorite pinball machine that's where he's at doing is his favorite pinball machine uh my wife it is her favorite pinball machine and have you bought one because we talked about this no i have not no i have not and there's reasons um
00:42:28
Speaker
I think dude is a fantastic game. They're not going to play it. No, Tom, the reason is, is because Joel, daddy Joel needs a 2026 fricking golf cart. That's what, that's the reason. Golf cart's great. just face Honestly, tooth enabled.
00:42:45
Speaker
The thing I'm holding is I'm holding out on Winchester Mystery House because I think a lot of the things my wife likes about Dune, she doesn't love like, it's not like Dune the theme is the thing that she loves. She loves the lighting in that game.
00:43:03
Speaker
the lighting system she adores she thinks it's so cool and they've done an incredible job with making really good moments in dune that she can experience i can i can just see joel like pillow talk at night like joel you know carl d'angelo what do you want travis okay yeah how many years have you been married joel 13. 13. Okay.
00:43:27
Speaker
So as somebody that's been married for nearly 20 years, yeah I'm going tell you this. Tread lightly if you're going to attempt to self-gift.
00:43:39
Speaker
tread Oh, no. Oh, I'm not. What do you mean, oh, no. Your wife went to Dune, and you're like, I'm going to convince her to do Winchester. No, what I'm saying is I'm waiting for Winchester to come to the house so she can play it, and I'm just curious if Winchester has any of the same... Like, it's the same...
00:43:55
Speaker
I think the reason she likes June is she likes the moments. Tom, do you see the strategy right here? i'm not I'm not selling her. own what like I don't even know if I'm going to like Winchester better than Dune.
00:44:07
Speaker
I don't know that yet. Are you going to have like Carl make a little, like for Christmas time, he's going to do a voicemail or a voice message so that way like your wife will be like, we have to get that. That game is so fantastic.
00:44:19
Speaker
No, I'm not. i just i What I'm trying to convey hi you Hi, this is Carl DeAngelo. what My wife, like... Carl D'Angelo cameo. Here are... oh yeah.
00:44:33
Speaker
Okay, Joel, we're sorry. These are the standout things. The reason she likes doing, one, the sympathy multiball. The fact that ball three, she has a chance one shot away. Carl's already confirmed that there will be a sympathy multiball in Winchester.
00:44:46
Speaker
Got it. she love multi ball joel hitty vol ball yes there you go She loves the lighting system. And I think the lighting system, obviously the same. I'm curious if they continue that atmospheric vibe and I have no doubt they will.
00:44:57
Speaker
So it's a lighting system. It's the sound in Dune. It's the pity multi-ball and it's the fun moments during the modes. All of those things I think will be in Winchester Mystery House.
00:45:09
Speaker
That is what I'm excited. I want to see if that carries over. And honestly, I think she would and she might actually enjoy that spooky haunted house vibe more than Dune. So it's I'm excited for her to play it.
00:45:21
Speaker
And we'll I'll report back. I'll report back on what Nicole's findings are on on Dune. But if she comes back, she might come back and play one game on it and be like, eh, it's no Dune. Like she might do that.
00:45:32
Speaker
You're to be like, no, we need to go back down there. Let's play it again. it again. No, let me call Carl. You can talk to Carl yeah and he could tell you. But no, that's what i'm I'm excited for that. And then I also honestly like Beetlejuice is a theme my wife genuinely loves.
00:45:47
Speaker
I say that Harry Potter was the theme that she loved.
Dune and Star Wars Pinball Discussions
00:45:52
Speaker
And she didn't love Harry Potter. So that theme could do nothing. It's because of the scoop.
00:45:58
Speaker
She's like, am I in a mode? What are these lessons? What am I? I'm not learning right now. I don't know. it's ah So Dune is still fantastic. What I have heard is there have been quite a bump in sales with Dune after Expo. So that that tells me that there were people that had a chance to finally play Dune at Expo and experience how good that game is.
00:46:17
Speaker
Um, but I just, uh, if I could buy stock and barrels of fun right now, I would. I'm so, I'm really impressed with the track, their games and the, uh, the church trajectory of what they're doing and where they're going.
00:46:29
Speaker
Um, so but they're doing a lot, right. They're doing a lot, right. Um,
00:46:35
Speaker
uh transition uh oh hold on i'm trying to think of how nice i want to be uh star wars star wars is here star wars is here um tom you've had yours in in house for a while now so have you travis uh or you've played you've played yours at the pinball company obviously this game um Well, let me ask you this question. I had a guy reach out to me and he said, I've, you know, i watched a bunch your streams. I'm trying to decide my next game and I'm between guardians of the galaxy or star Wars fall the empire.
00:47:10
Speaker
Which one both would you suggest clips? Uh-huh. So just right off the, right off the bat. And while you're thinking, ah currently guys, we have like 700 subscribers on YouTube. If you're watching this on YouTube, please subscribe.
00:47:23
Speaker
I think I, I absolutely think we can get to a ah thousand and, All those questions I was talking about, about so you know Travis saying Stern should start billing us for all of our mods. That's what I heard.
00:47:33
Speaker
ah If you agree or disagree, write a comment. Like, subscribe, all the things. Comment. Tell us why we're right or wrong. so Just roast us so we can put it on a t-shirt. That's what I want. What do you recommend? Or if you think the rejects on the Death Star on Star Wars would be enough not to buy it.
00:47:51
Speaker
But if you listen to the audio podcast, please do us favor, subscribe to the to the to the YouTube channel. Let's get to a thousand. So with all that said, answer that question, Guardians of the Galaxy or what you're seeing right now in Star Wars Fall the Empire? Which one do think you would recommend? it's great comparison because the mechs are almost the same because you have Groot's head and you have the Death Star.
00:48:13
Speaker
And one of them accepts balls and the other hardly does.
00:48:20
Speaker
I'd have to go Guardians of the Galaxy. Fan layout. um What would you say, Travis? as of like today, would say, yeah. right now yeah Guardians, like just because I love the theme.
00:48:34
Speaker
I read the comic books. I really liked where the code ended up getting to cause it was fully fleshed out. It's all the way done. And I love the music on it. If you use the, I think it was like what the Cleveland cleland mu or or the coat. Yeah. And so when you can hear all the music, like I like that vibe and everything.
00:48:53
Speaker
So, Well, that's where that's where my answer would be. If I had to choose two today now, is that an official pinball company answer? I mean, that's what I would choose. That's what you choose. I know. Yeah. Somebody's going to ask me now a year from now when Star Wars is fully fleshed out with the rules. True.
00:49:11
Speaker
Maybe they get a fix for the Death Star. I might be. I've heard they're working on it. I don't know. what I told the guy, I told the guy, star Wars. I told the guy star Wars.
00:49:22
Speaker
And, and, uh, why, why, why, Joel? I'm glad you asked Travis. I'm glad you asked. I'm going I'm going to leave this conversation on. It's currently 0.86 code and there is a ton in this game.
00:49:34
Speaker
There's a ton in this game. And I think there's way more they're going to add. I'm looking at the game right now. I mean, when I streamed it last, just to get to the mini wizard mode for just the character modes.
00:49:48
Speaker
So that's the rebel missions. Like that was that was an entire game in itself. And that's one of five mini wizard modes because there's going to be one for Vader. There's going to be one for once you do all the Jabba ones, one for once you do all the Falcon features.
00:50:02
Speaker
Then obviously there's some ultimate wizard mode with Jedi. Like I think depth wise, my biggest issues when I had Guardians was the fact that you could pick your mode on the plunge. And my entire goal with Guardians was to get to Cherry Bomb Multiball.
00:50:15
Speaker
So I found to do that, you got to beat four modes. So I found myself always playing the same four modes. just to beat just to get to cherry bomb so i was i was playing it in the same path i don't oh are we can you read that joel it looks like a high score for star wars is that what i'm saying that is the uh not a jedi yet champion oh completing the mode thank you very much Uh, side comment, Mr. Ben, Ben, shout out to you at, at Stern. Uh, he's in charge of all insider connect. They're running a special right now or a thing called beat that score, beat the score. Um, and the whole goal with that beat that score is, um,
00:50:56
Speaker
for you to play an insider connected game and then take a picture of your score and you can submit it. And so they're going to pick scores for people that submit. It doesn't have to be an amazing score. it can be any score.
00:51:08
Speaker
So their goal is they're, they're trying to start something. i don't I don't know if it's every week, but for every single Stern insider connected game, they're going to have a badge that, with a user and the user score. So for that week, if you beat that user score in star Wars, you will get that back. So if you personally want to have an opportunity, five million on the new star Wars, hundred percent. Yep. It would be Joel, Bob, my insider connected score with my score. So you could say, yes, I beat Joel, Bob. I beat him in his score.
00:51:38
Speaker
So it's just, if that's something that, yeah. And anybody can submit a score. So that's already open. It's already a thing. ah So start submitting scores. Cause they, it's not like you have to have these crazy Carl D'Angelo level scores.
00:51:49
Speaker
You can submit any score and they're going to be picking people. And so your username could become a badge. So I think that's pretty cool. I submitted one on turtles the other night and we'll see if, if that happens, it was like,
00:52:00
Speaker
like 90, I think it was like 90 million in Turtles. 90 million? I don't know. Or maybe even bit I don't know. I'd have to look. But um yeah, hopefully it gets picked. Anyways, with all that said, I don't know. To me, I found myself playing Guardians the same way over and over again.
00:52:17
Speaker
And that's when a game gets stale to me. And I feel like the direction that Star Wars code is going, there's a ton to do and a ton of ways to do it.
00:52:27
Speaker
And that that variety is what excites me. in, in owning a pinball machine. That's a very fair assessment. I think, I think, uh, star Wars will be a lot deeper, yes you know, we, we, it remains to be seen about the death star shot.
00:52:45
Speaker
That is frustrating. It was, my score was 99 million, 250,000. So,
00:52:50
Speaker
um What do I not like about Star Wars? I'm glad you asked. um I don't like the code. Is it the Death Star shot? I just talked. don't like the code. What I mean, I don't. Sorry, Ray. Ray's sitting there. He probably just choked on his hot pocket. I don't like. I'm not.
00:53:07
Speaker
ah Nothing against Ray or Andrew. It's not Ray's fault that Death Star shot doesn't work. But to me, what what I love about code in a game, i like modes that stand out and feel unique and feel like you're experiencing something.
00:53:28
Speaker
And right now the character modes, there's technically three modes per character, but I'll tell you right now, you know, Han level green versus Han level yellow versus Han level orange,
00:53:44
Speaker
feels the exact same. They all feel the exact same. There's just different movie clips. And honestly, Han level green and Leah level green, Leah, feel the exact same. Like, they're just, I don't know. It's just the character modes all feel rather same-sy.
00:54:00
Speaker
Sorry, Ray. But that's, to me, when you don't have something that feels unique or stands out, it just kind of feels like it's something that's going on. And then once you add in stacking events, you add Hoth on top of that, now you just have a whole lot going on.
00:54:17
Speaker
And um unfortunately, that was a similar, that's how felt similarly with Harry Potter. You have this amazing theme with this amazing stuff, but now you have so much overlap that that nothing's standing out.
00:54:30
Speaker
So am I way off base there or what are your thoughts on on that? No, I mean, you you're right to say that what happens is once things start feeling the same and you start doing stacks on top of it, it almost becomes that you don't really focus on the mode anymore. Once the multiball happens, you're more or less just focused on the multiball.
00:54:50
Speaker
So that that tends to be what happens at that point. so No, I definitely hear what you're saying. I think that's, we kind of talked about this earlier about how the modes are on Star Wars, because obviously if you read the PDF, it's intentional with how they're doing it with the color coded characters with, you know, there's only so many shots per, per mode. And then the base value goes up and then there's less shots available for that. yeah,
00:55:17
Speaker
This is very much intentional. Plus character combos, eye on multipliers. There's so much scoring stuff you can do in each mode. it's Yeah, and I haven't got a chance to ask Ray about it, but I would imagine, and again, I'm not putting words in his mouth. I have no idea, but I would imagine just logically looking at how that plays out and how that is.
00:55:36
Speaker
i would think that that's done on purpose in order to make the game more approachable for somebody that kind of is a casual or somebody that is the average user that may not play pinball every single day.
00:55:49
Speaker
Because just like you said, on something like guardians, if you understand how each mode works and you know, you're trying to get somewhere, maybe you might end up going the same direction. Whereas with yeah this, yeah.
00:56:00
Speaker
It's kind of interesting because I think, too, the characters, of course, you have the character combos and you have different things. So I'm curious to see. I need to dig into it more to see what happens exactly.
00:56:11
Speaker
once Because I know that there's different, I guess there's different buffs or boosts according to what characters you play on that game. And there's ah there's a long list yeah of them on the PDF. lot of perks.
00:56:22
Speaker
Right. Yeah, exactly. So I know that there's reasons for this that goes yeah beyond just the foundational level of the first things that you play. It's just I haven't been able to explore that enough to know where that leads and which direction would be the best way to go for to take advantage of something like that.
00:56:39
Speaker
I know Tilt Forums has it all laid out, but I think it's something like, you know, if you beat a Yoda mode, then your spinners are worth 10% more of the rest of the game. Like, it's stuff like that. There's all these perks. Well, for it's for sure for sure, go to SternPinball.com because they have the PDF, the rules PDF on there. Yeah, that's pretty much it's up to date as much as it can be. But there's sometimes some things on Tilt Forums that...
00:57:02
Speaker
gets incorrect that's actually there on the PDF. But Kill Forms is still great. I'm saying just be sure and look at that first if really want to know where to go. and And to be fair, I mean, tom you know Tom's harping on the Death Star shot, but when I look at the layout of this game, you know how do you make a mode unique with this layout of the game?
Challenges in Pinball Design
00:57:23
Speaker
Well, the left orbit and the right orbit are always just going to be in orbit. you know the The Luke shot is always going to be a Vuck.
00:57:29
Speaker
there's you know The Death Star, it can either with the thing closed, the ball can come back or, or it can reject, or it can go in, you know, on a, on a premium rally, the ramp in the middle will actually, that's, that's something that changes. It's either up or down, but you know, the job, the job is shot is, is always the same shot unless the drops down the right ramp is always the same shot. So it's just like,
00:57:53
Speaker
You can't, you know, it's not a dynamic play field in that regards. You know, it's it's not like, okay, I'm going to alter these shots so this mode feels different than the other mode. And I think that's that's one of the hardware kind of hardware or design advantages of, um I mean, let's compare it to another Stern, Kong.
00:58:12
Speaker
When you play Cross the Chasm, you are shooting that game in a completely different way. than when you play a different mode.
00:58:23
Speaker
Because now all of a sudden, you're just trying to get up to that upper left. You're trying to get the log diverter up. you're trying to like You have to play that game, and the way that ball path is going for that mode feels completely different than when you're trying to play whatever the Stegosaurus mode. you know like That is something, i don't know, that to me... That's something a dynamic layout gives you the yeah advantage of.
00:58:51
Speaker
A hundred percent. And that's, that's what, um, i actually heard this recently that, uh, bug at, at spooky pinball. He, he apparently one of the design constraints that he gave spooky Luke is he goes, I want every shot in the game to do three things.
00:59:08
Speaker
So every shot in the game should either like allow the ball to go through it. or should be diverted off the path or potentially change its course, like come back at you. So if you have that type of mentality when you're designing a game that every shot in the game needs to have other paths, you know, I know Godfather advertised that, that there's like all the different combinations. And then obviously Harry Potter, there's a lot of stuff diverting.
00:59:33
Speaker
elwyn's known for that incredibly well it's like when you build that type of stuff into a game and you can allow the the shots to change and act differently that's that enables the coder to make modes feel unique and stand out and that's something that i think you know ray had his hands full here with with star wars it's just it's not the most dynamic layout so to try to build modes that feel different i think is really hard to do i I don't know. Is that, is that, does does that design philosophy make sense or no, no it i like or what what do we all know no, it makes sense. And that's, I mean, that's why I've been telling you guys behind the scenes, like I'm waiting to see if somebody can figure out how to bring back a fan layout that,
01:00:18
Speaker
makes you feel like you're kind of back in the mid nineties again or late nineties. Right. So you kind of look at medieval madness attack from Mars, right? Classic fan layouts, but they always get you wanting to come back for more. Okay. But those games, they're not super deep either.
01:00:35
Speaker
And we hear it all the times about modern pinball. People feel like the rule sets are too complex. So I feel like there's something there. It's, it's almost, and I compared this when were talking about the other day, it's almost like, when you watch a YouTube video or you see Gordon Ramsey telling all the chefs make a scrambled egg and they try to figure out like how to do this, right? so It seems like the most simplest thing to do, but how do you make it elegant? How do you make it great? How do you make it unique?
01:01:00
Speaker
So I'm just, I'm curious if there's still space in the pinball industry for a fan layout to come out that feels like that again, because it seems like right now almost everybody's leaning towards dynamic layouts.
01:01:15
Speaker
I think the only the only games I can think of off the top my head, you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, the only games I can think of that are more fan-ish are Star Wars that recently came out and John Wick.
01:01:27
Speaker
So I'm trying to think of any other games from anybody, from any other manufacturer, a modern game that's ah like a true fan layout.
01:01:37
Speaker
Well, how, I mean, like, obviously Stranger Things was a fan layout. That was 2019. So that's so well nearly, nearly, nearly six years ago. But that's what I mean. Like that's that legitimately, that's probably 40 plus releases ago.
01:01:53
Speaker
When you look at the whole entire industry, but everything that's come out, like I'm trying to think. So let's think about this. Predator has an upper flipper to it. yeah no avatar um no harry potter maybe maybe venom to extent i know it has some yeah yeah changes right so but it was dynamic venom pro no venom pro is not dynamic at all but the venom prime rally could feel dynamic with the changing the ball pass right i mean mando to an extent but um
01:02:26
Speaker
I get it. I mean, I i don't know. just I'm just curious if that's possible again, because again, that's Brian Eddy doing that. The same one who did media Medieval Madness, the same one that did Attack from Mars doing that now. And they're kind of, those games aren't seen in the same light, right? As those, even though they're modern games, even though they have huge themes on them, right? I mean, that's Venom is what it is, but let's face facts. Mandalorian, big theme. Stranger Things, big theme.
01:02:54
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, honestly, Evil Dead is kind of fan layout, right? It kind of is, but yet that game is so dynamic with the mechs and stuff. But you still have the little flipper, though. Oh, the sling flipper? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you could play it in complete... You don't have to use that sling flipper.
01:03:10
Speaker
you i mean, it helps hitting the hand, but I... but ah but the way they did the code there, the different modes within evil dead make you focus on different areas of the play field and play the game differently. Right. But that game, but that game still has modes that forces you to go horizontal. So I'm talking about games in which you're not forced to go horizontal.
01:03:31
Speaker
Like attack from Mars. You don't do that. mean, cactus obviously is, but that's not a modern game. I don't know. Is is there a is there a fan layout that doesn't have some horizontal to it though?
01:03:43
Speaker
I mean, everything's going to have shots to the side. You know what I mean? But I'm talking like an added flipper besides the two flippers. Deadpool has the targets on the side.
01:03:54
Speaker
Yeah. you have some horizontal. I mean, you're always going to have something on the side, but I'm meaning like a flipper that sends the ball horizontal. That's what I'm meaning. Like something like that. Like Evil Dead has that with a little flipper. Yeah. Sure. Okay.
01:04:06
Speaker
But I don't think it's like a, I guess... Like what would happen if Elwin woke It's not like you're hitting an upper ramp shot with it or, you know, like loop. Like I just, like for me, I just wonder what what happens if Keith wakes up one morning. He's just like, damn it, I'm just going to make a fan layout.
01:04:26
Speaker
And it's going it's going to have six shots on it. but And we're going to figure out how to make this game an absolute banger. Like is that possible? So jaws Jaws is the closest thing Elwin's made to a fan layout, right?
01:04:38
Speaker
Like I understand the, the, the, but I'm not talking about close. I'm meaning like somebody actually does it and says, I'm going to enter this space and I'm going to see. Yeah. Like, is that possible? Can that be done?
01:04:50
Speaker
No, I'm just wondering if that can still be done nowadays because everybody's dynamic. Everything's dynamic. Is Bond 60th considered a fan layout? I mean, it's not really a fan, I guess.
01:05:02
Speaker
I mean, we could just say Italian bottom at that point, but sure i right I'm just, I'm just curious. Like would, would that game even like, would people even like that? Would people like a Jack danger to where it doesn't write to where you're more focused with those two flippers down below?
01:05:18
Speaker
Okay. So he kind of did that a little bit. with x-men but then of course you had the whole side yeah yeah exactly like i'm streaming i mean this will the next game i'm streaming is monsters believe it or not so zach tomorrow is picking up he's picking up doing he's picking up star wars and he happened to get a monsters in on trade so it's one of three uh spike two games i haven't streamed so we're streaming monsters that is a fan layout That is a fan layout, right? So it's about as simple as it comes.
01:05:50
Speaker
And well, so is Metallica. There's two big targets. Metallica, Guardians. These are all fan layouts. Right, there's all kinds. What I'm asking is, is can that be done entering 2026 or even into 2027? Can that be done now? so let me what we know the games that have come out since then.
01:06:11
Speaker
Can it be done? Yes. but can it be done at scale to where people will accept it and it sells thousands of units? If Metallica had not been, if if Metallica had not been made and the Metallica remake was brand new, brand new game, brand new concept, and that's what was dropped on our laps, do you think if that was a brand new design for people in 2025, do you think people would have immediately loved it or or crapped all over it because it was a fan layout?
01:06:39
Speaker
Metallica, with what it is. I think people would love it. because it's got the snake, it's got the graveyard, it's got Sparky, it's got two spinners. I personally love the layout. I honestly, I don't know how I can answer that. Because because if people are like, oh, he just copied he just copied Guardians.
01:06:57
Speaker
Like if that's what people, you know. I mean, it's tough because there's so many people have come out with games since then, since all these games that we're talking about, right? I mean, there's games that their entire portfolios are dynamic layouts, barrels of fun.
01:07:13
Speaker
Three games. But are you saying that's good or bad? I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just curious if there's space in pinball right now. I think there could, but you would have to have some kind of DeBurgers or something. I don't know. Well, yeah, of course. But the last ones Stern has come out with, they haven't done as well as others.
01:07:31
Speaker
Like John Wick hasn't done as well as others. Venom hasn't done as well as the others. Rush has an upper flipper. It has an upper flipper. That's a dynamic layout. I'm talking about just Italian bottom fan.
01:07:42
Speaker
Have you ever played rush? yeah I have. I was trying to think of it. i'm like, where is it? Tom's about to reach through this screen at you. I know. I had to think about it. I had to think about it. just asking. These are just questions that I wonder as I sit alone in my room pondering life.
01:07:56
Speaker
So I figured I'd ask you to. Foo Fighters Pro? JLCL. Foo Fighters Pro. Fighters has an upper flipper. Pro. pro There's an upper flipper. There's no mini plate field. Oh, it's upper loop. There's a flipper on the right so you can hit the upper loop. That's okay. We know who we're talking to.
01:08:13
Speaker
ah God.
01:08:16
Speaker
That's a good question. I'm going get hate mail for that. yeah Okay, so we're leading into this because Walking Dead has two flippers. There we go. So now we can a transition. That's transition? Okay. I mean, that's where we're going to go.
01:08:27
Speaker
No, one transition I want your transition. want to talk about Star Wars still. You said Foo Fighters Pro doesn't have an upper flipper. That's where we're now. Nah, not taking your transition to this Okay. all Just to wrap up Star Wars, all I'm saying is if at the beginning of the year you told me, hey, guess what? These are these are the games that are coming out this year.
01:08:45
Speaker
You're going to have another Star Wars game. You're going to have Harry Potter. You're going to have Beetlejuice. You're going to have Winchester Mystery House. You're going to King Kong. ah What am I missing? doing Dune. No, Dune was last year.
01:08:57
Speaker
Was it? ah Technically, right? But I'm saying like if you just dropped all those themes, to me, I'm saying from a code standpoint, Unfortunately, i just I haven't loved the Star Wars code.
01:09:12
Speaker
That sounds really mean, and I'm not trying to be mean, Ray, but I'm like thinking of when it comes to immersive, like how well does the code do the game or make you feel like you're living in Star Wars?
01:09:23
Speaker
I'm waiting for that. and Maybe it'll come with time because it's only 0.86. But even even we've said that a lot about Harry Potter. like Harry Potter, there are moments where it really feels like Harry Potter, but there's others where it just feels like a lot's going on.
01:09:35
Speaker
if Is that fair to say, Tom, you own Harry Potter? Do you feel like the code really does Harry Potter justice?
Immersive Gaming Moments
01:09:41
Speaker
Or is it Or is it a lot? i mean I mean, to me it does. I can see where to other people it doesn't, though, just because ah just because there's so much going on Okay, so maybe it's like atmosphere or immersive experience is kind of the thing that I'm really latching could say like, oh, there's not as much going on in Star Wars, but but like I can feel the moments yes when I'm playing the game.
01:10:10
Speaker
There are moments. The Darth Vader modes are great. mayor More so than maybe the the the previous one, but.
01:10:21
Speaker
Yes. But. Yeah, I think, yeah, forget it. I'm not even going talk anymore. But if you can fill the moments, isn't the game doing its job, though? Yes. If you can fill the moments, you know what i mean? Yes.
01:10:34
Speaker
But maybe it's just, I mean, I got to the mini wizard mode, the rebel mission, the mini wizard mode, ah where you're actually battling Darth Vader. And that's a moment. Like, that feels great. So maybe it's just the fact that they're there, you just...
01:10:46
Speaker
You got to work to get to you're not a Jedi yet. I think is like fantastic. It's fantastic. I thought you were telling Joel he's not a Jedi yet. I was like, damn.
01:10:59
Speaker
Harry Potter, like, like the owl multiball is an awesome moment or defend the castle or whatever. Like that's an awesome moment. This is what want to say about Harry Potter. got to get way into it.
01:11:10
Speaker
Well, playing it once you get into the multi balls, it's a lot of fun. Like getting to the upper play field, doing the Quidditch stuff. That's a lot of fun. There's so many great qualities to Harry Potter. So I know we've talked about the past few podcasts in terms of how the lessons work and stuff like that. And, I just, I approached it and I played it with my wife and i just, she asked like, okay, how do we play this? And I kind of told her what the lessons are, but we just said, okay, we're going to totally ignore it.
01:11:38
Speaker
We're going act like that doesn't even exist.
The Role of Opinions in Gaming
01:11:40
Speaker
If we accidentally hit the scoop, so be it. And you know what? We were still putting up scores just fine. It was just, it was so arbitrary behind everything, which whether that's good or bad, that's up for anybody else to decide how they want to approach it.
01:11:53
Speaker
But I will say going after multi-balls, That was fun actually getting to play the multi balls. That was fun. So it's kind of interesting because it was almost like an inverse GNR right to where I don't mind the amount of multi balls that are coming out with Harry Potter.
01:12:09
Speaker
Like I don't mind that at all because i don't have time to look up at the screen anyways, half the time. So give me more action. It's a dynamic layout. I want to see where I can send the ball to. I want to see where I can get a jackpot at. It's the execution.
01:12:22
Speaker
Yep. hundred percent. I'm just, I'm trying to think of like, um, I'm not trying to be critical. It's just, this is something that I've really been thinking about Oh, have to to be Joel. You're, you're going all the way.
01:12:32
Speaker
i know. And I feel, i i know this is going to piss people off. It's fine. Specifically Raymond Davidson. I'm very sorry, but here's the thing. It's your opinion. Never, never feel bad for having an opinion. Cause I guarantee you, I hope all of our listeners out there have an opinion that they feel like is worth expressing. Because everybody's opinion's worth it. And that's how these games get better because we share opinions and thoughts and what we think is good and bad about a game. That's how anybody gets better.
01:12:59
Speaker
ah Yes, I agree. And it's just this, the whole point of this podcast, right. Is just the three of us having a conversation. That's what we're trying to do. And, and another mode that stood out to me here is, um, uh, shout out to Dwight and, and, and Giski in D and d there's, there's a, one of the modes, one of the stages, you know, you're trying to be stealthy.
01:13:17
Speaker
And the fact that every time a sling gets hit, you lose, uh, you know, a percentage. And then once, once you're too loud, boom, that's when people get out of the play field like that. that's a moment that feels and now of a sudden I am playing that game completely differently than I was before that mode and that I don't know like that that's the creativity that I I love I just I just don't care about points I don't care about jackpots multipliers I personally don't care about any of that I feel what I like is when I start a mode or a multi-ball or mini wizard mode and now the game feels different
01:13:51
Speaker
than before and I'm playing it differently and you can do that with lighting you can do that with sound the overall vibe that it gives off but when when I feel that modes are very sanesy or very similar where it's like yeah you hit these shots and then hit those shots I don't know it just it's hard for me to really get locked into a game Right. we've We've had this conversation off podcast that, you know, some people like, they just like the scoring aspect of games. And other people like like the adventure and the and the the journey through it.
01:14:26
Speaker
And yeah there's nothing wrong with either way, you know. So i I totally see what you're saying, Joel. You're just like, there's got to be more moments in that Star Wars game to to kind of grab you into it.
01:14:41
Speaker
I think... Is what I'm hearing. yeah Yes, exactly. And they're at 0.86. And that's something where I think they've they've made a solid base. But where I'm at, where it's like, I've spent a lot of time in the character modes, and that's where I wish...
01:14:56
Speaker
they felt different or a little more unique that's my i mean maybe that's i'm trying to be construct ray i'm trying to be constructive i mean it it it depends what the user is though right because i mean i i've seen people with i'm not even joking with 150 000 200 000 plus dollar game rooms of just pinball machines everywhere yeah They would not be able to tell me even the baseline rules for any of them.
01:15:23
Speaker
And they admit it. They don't care about the rules at all. All they care is, is it fun to flip? Is the sound cool? Does it have lights that just like make sense to them? That's just kind of.
01:15:34
Speaker
kind of just entertaining for them. There's a lot of people out there like that too. And yeah honestly, the way that I see it, those types of people, I promise you, it's, it's kind of weird. It's like, I don't think they're all listening to podcasts. Maybe somebody is listening to this one that falls under that.
01:15:51
Speaker
I know for sure there's a lot of them on Penn side because yeah they all that everybody i talked to, they do have Penn side accounts and they don't care a lick. about rules or lcds or anything all they care is does the art look cool is the game fun to flip and does it have a light show like that is legitimately their main priority and they are shelling out a lot of money for that so i i don't know it's kind of unique like i don't mind hearing what you're saying joel because ah it sounds like you're kind of coming more towards what tom and how we view pinball and we see what do the shots do and
01:16:24
Speaker
yeah Are you incentivized to actually hit a certain shot or a certain combination or a certain sequence of shots? And I think that's, you know, for people out there, if you're not thinking of pinball like that, it does open up a lot more opportunity for you as a player.
01:16:40
Speaker
Once you do start viewing pinball through that prism to see the combinations of shots. So it's not for everybody, but I think that's like, you can correct me if I'm wrong, Joel. I feel like that's where you're coming from.
01:16:51
Speaker
That's what I am. and that's i mean you know Here, Tom and I are are singing X-Men's praises, but there are there there are some mode... like There's mode improved. They could improve some of the modes. Some of the modes are kind of boring or kind of stale. i don' believe they I believe they will.
01:17:07
Speaker
and I agree. I agree, but I also do feel... that like the Wolverine mode does feel very different than the juggernaut mode.
01:17:18
Speaker
And that's something that's like, that's important to me that these, that when I'm playing a different mode, they feel, they feel different. And that is, and that's with a, yeah, it's not like the layout completely changed between those two modes.
01:17:32
Speaker
And I understand that. And I guess being a, you know, I'm not a coder, but I could imagine being a coder, um, you know, you in that particular game, you have nine things that you're working towards and this, you have what, three times eight, 24. 24.
01:17:51
Speaker
Yeah. And plus you're that this one has movie assets. That one doesn't. So I, you know, Oh, I'm not saying it's easy. That's the hard thing.
01:18:02
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I don't say it's easy. It's a lie. It's like, how do you differentiate all that? How do you make everything feel unique? That, that's, you know, that's the hard thing. I don't know that.
01:18:16
Speaker
I mean, maybe that's why i like the Guardians rule set because everything feels unique when you play it. Maybe why the lessons in Harry Potter feel flat to you guys is just because it's too much.
01:18:27
Speaker
Yeah, how do you make 92 unique experiences or whatever? i think it's kind of like... I compare it to this, Tom. So I really love cheeseburgers, right?
01:18:38
Speaker
I just like... I fucking love cheeseburgers, right? That Kuma place was awesome. Exactly. Yeah, they're awesome. Yeah, if I have a milkshake and a beer, like I'm in hog heaven. But...
01:18:49
Speaker
So about 20 years ago, I realized I love cheeseburgers so much that I got to this place that had this ah this contest that if you could eat a five pound cheeseburger, you get it for free.
01:19:00
Speaker
And I'm like, hell, I can do this all day long. And so they said you had you can take away one condiment and you could put on one other. I'm like, oh, okay, we'll just take off the onions. I don't want to eat a bunch of those. Just put yeah have extra mayonnaise. It'll be fine.
01:19:16
Speaker
So I realized even though I love mayonnaise, I fucking hated mayonnaise then because it was too much on the bun. Yeah, I couldn't eat it. I couldn't eat it. So that's kind of what some of these games are like. That's what Harry Potter is like for me.
01:19:29
Speaker
Right. Like I love certain elements of it, but yeah it's just like it's a five pound burger. It's just so much. So if I can drill it down to the two pounds, I'm good. yeah It's a lot of fun.
01:19:41
Speaker
If you look back to the 90s and you listen to like interviews with Pat Lawler and he talks about Adam's family and Adam's family came out. Everybody was like going nuts about it. Right.
01:19:54
Speaker
I mean, this old what? Twenty to twenty three thousand of that game. a lot. And they had they had modes. And the next game was Twilight Zone.
01:20:05
Speaker
And it was similar but different. And they kind of like kind of, as he said, they kind of drove it over the cliff. they just kind of They threw so much at that game yeah that people at the time were like, some people were going up to it. Like Powerball would come out and be like, what the hell is this?
01:20:26
Speaker
Yeah. You know, so I remember, I think I've said this on the podcast before, but first time I played Twilight Zone, I had absolutely no idea what was going on. You know, shot the ball over there and then all a sudden it came out over here and I was like, what the hell just happened?
01:20:43
Speaker
you know, but stepped into that was my first experience, like playing the game and playing, like, that was like my first month in pinball, you know? So I had like no clue, but you know, as, as what what I'm getting at is, are we kind of going over the cliff with some of these? And, and I think Travis was alluding to that with, with the fan layout and all that, but Are we getting too, too deep into these rule sets kind of thing?
01:21:15
Speaker
Like, are we getting too much? I'll tell you straight up. Yes. Yeah. I'll tell you straight up. Yes. A hundred percent. And
Game Complexity and Accessibility
01:21:20
Speaker
I'm, and I say that as somebody that prides themselves in knowing rule sets. yeah Maybe not us, the enthusiasts, but you know for somebody else.
01:21:30
Speaker
It's just like anything else. If you try to explain a game to somebody, you should be able to explain the basics in 30 seconds and they understand it. right It's a quick elevator pitch. It's the rule cards. And it's fine to have extra nuance on top.
01:21:43
Speaker
Totally cool. Right. You just keep going. But I do know like some of these though, it's just people, their eyes just glaze over if you go too far with it in terms of all the multipliers. And, know, absolutely.
01:21:57
Speaker
There is something to that, but even people glaze over. ah jared streams with me every week and there are some games where i start to explain what to do and he just shuts down he doesn't and he's he is a pinball enthusiast he is a streamer like that's what he that's what he does and he's just like i've heard enough like i'll tell you what 90 of our uh deliveries same exact thing i i always ask him i'm like hey do you want to know how to play this game And if so, like if they do, i just tell them the basics that gets them started.
01:22:31
Speaker
And then I always tell them, then if you want to discover more, just play the game. You can go as deep with it that you want to go. Right? Because it it if you if you do understand it to that level, i mean, you got to literally be like Magnus playing chess.
01:22:45
Speaker
Right? If you really want to know deep down how you set like the 48X multiplier shot combo shot, of course, it's a lot to set up. i mean Not everybody has to do that, but... I mean, how are you going to explain something to somebody? It's it's the basics. You're going to tell them how to start a mode and how to start a multiball.
01:23:03
Speaker
You're not going to go any deeper than that and yeah and until they get that down. And I have learned you have to explain to them what happens during the multiball. Because I've seen this to where they don't understand the ball saves. They don't understand like the ball gets put in the you know in the shooter lane that's going to automatically plunge out. There's so many balls there. We've had somebody call us for a tech situation because their game kept giving them extra balls out there. And they didn't realize there was a bozo multiball that took like two shots to get to.
01:23:36
Speaker
but So, yeah, it's just... It's funny how that works, but that's just how pinball is at times. i've my My parents, so Turtles is has been at my parents now for a few years. And my dad, he goes, do want to i do want to like officially request if there's a way that we could swap out Turtles for another game.
01:23:55
Speaker
That's what he said. One, it's hard, but it's like, he goes, I just don't understand the game. And Teenage Ninja Turtles is ramp, ramp, pizza shot. That's how you start a mode.
01:24:06
Speaker
If you want a multi-ball, you hit the pizza the pizza shot. That's it. But yet that, that alone, he's already just like, it's too much. It's too much. And it's he's over, like, that's too much.
01:24:19
Speaker
It's too, it's overwhelming to him. So I'm probably going to swap out, I'll probably give him Godzilla for a while. And I'm hoping Godzilla is just one of those You know, do I ever expect him to get into a battle? Probably not.
01:24:30
Speaker
That right scoop is is hard, but yeah he'll get into that multiball. I will say, though, what your dad is saying is exactly the reason why there's always going to be market for games like Pulp Fiction.
01:24:41
Speaker
I was about to give Josh... I know, okay, Josh Sharp, I know, like, he doesn't have that much confidence, and I know he doesn't. I hate that guy. He doesn't have strong opinions because I know he's very, like, he's very cautious. He doesn't want to rub people the wrong way. So I really want to boost his his esteem here. I hope he realizes, like, um you know, kind of, you know,
01:25:04
Speaker
believe in yourself, Josh, you know, like really, cause it was very unfair playing him at, at the stern pro circuit. Oh no, I forgot about that. What Josh did with the code of Pulp Fiction.
01:25:17
Speaker
There's nothing about Pulp Fiction. That's dynamic, right? It's a, it's, there's, it's not a dynamic layout at all, but yet, That code, the modes feel unique. ah Honestly, the the, what is it?
01:25:29
Speaker
the The shot. The shot is that that mode is incredible. And that's done not with an LCD screen. That's done purely with with the light show in the sound package and very unique and creative rules. And and on top of that, there's no stacking.
01:25:48
Speaker
No stacking. i don't yeah They don't let you. know and and He's an anti-stacker. Yeah, and i'm on I think I'm becoming an anti-stacker. I just, to me, I don't want to stack. i want But that was a smart decision. That was a smart decision to do on that type of game because it clearly differentiates things.
01:26:06
Speaker
And plus, too, what Pulp has going for it is the inserts. You pretty much know what's going on. in the game like everything is right there for you so it's great it's super easy to explain it to people to be like yeah just hear it here it's doable and so i mean josh i hope if you're hearing this you uh no it's not i what's gimp multi-ball dad um don't know if i can uh explain that that's not gonna fit now but honestly it's a game i freaking loved it i loved it when it was here so
01:26:36
Speaker
Josh, I hope that helps you out with your steam issues a little bit. Just be comfortable in who you are and your opinions. Just speak them loud. you know People are are ready to listen. So, john Joel, Tom briefly alluded to it.
Stern Pro Circuit and Competitive Pinball
01:26:50
Speaker
So we might as well, because everybody be asking anyways and wondering why we haven't said anything about it. So Tom and I also played in the Stern Pro Circuit Finals. So speaking of Josh Sharpe. And it's a brand new format, right? Dude.
01:27:03
Speaker
Yeah. We freaking crushed it. My God. I would have won the whole thing if they didn't change it So for the listeners, if you've but you have ever seen um like a so a cup stacking video, these, you know, just just Google cup stacking and you're going to see some eight-year-old.
01:27:22
Speaker
Oh, he's got the timer. You're going to see an eight-year-old be able to do this, but they have these timers where you have to put down both your hands and then you stack the cups and then you have to slap the timer. And so somebody had the brilliant idea.
01:27:35
Speaker
to bring this into pinball. So they would set a goal, be like, start setting it up. Yeah. Start, uh, start calling multiple, right? There it is. So they'd say, start calling multiple already go. So it doesn't matter if you drain, it doesn't anything. It's all timed.
01:27:51
Speaker
And, um, that's how they did the stern pro circuit finals. And, um, and you guys just crushed it. Right. We did. We did. Absolutely. And, um, you'll be proud of us, Joel. You have just as many wins as Tom and I do at the stern pro circuit top three top three in this yeah or or 30 31 32 yeah somewhere around there yeah so it's playing at speed is not i mean pinball to you guys is controlled right and that how do you how do you play controlled when you're trying to
01:28:25
Speaker
go go go go like i dont i i loved it viewer as a viewer yeah ah well it was right yeah as a viewer there was part part i liked but um uh i felt so bad for the commentators because what is there to commentate there's no every person playing that game is doing the exact same thing as the person beforehand and it's And it's short. It's like, all right, let's see how they... it's no There's no strategy to it. It's just like, let's see if they can do it.
01:28:55
Speaker
so I mean, there's some strategy to it. There's some. It's funny. So like on... i think it was on... Was it D&D or might've been, I was on some game and I remember I tried to tilt real quick because the ball was just taking way too long because I wanted to get through the animation.
01:29:13
Speaker
And then the ball like accidentally nearly popped back up to the play field. Bowen came over and he's like, were trying to death save on that? I was like, no Bowen, I'm not trying to death save live on stream in front of everybody. I'm trying to tilt out. There's strategy there. Yeah. Cancel out animations or drain.
01:29:31
Speaker
to not qualify certain things or like, Oh crap, I accidentally started the wrong multiple. bowl So I need to, I need to tilt to, to end that so I can get back towards what I'm actually trying to work. I mean, I don't think that could have happened, but just to the way that the rules were in general, I think it was more or less that,
01:29:47
Speaker
It plays with your mind that you do have to play fast. And if you're not used to playing fast, you're used to trapping up, used to playing steady. It's just, and you have to speed it up. It's just, yeah, it was weird. Tom's not used to fast. He's lasting. He's used to like lasting a long time.
01:30:02
Speaker
That's what Tom is known for is, that's so we so it so so we lasted we lasted uh how many games total tom did you and i last 12 or is it yeah together how many yeah yeah i think so yeah Yeah, I think we both only lost 6-0. It's no big deal. Josh, let me pick all the objectives, too.
01:30:22
Speaker
So who made that choice? And do they do you so like that person? high seed gets to pick either the objective or the or um whether they want to go first or second.
01:30:36
Speaker
I meant more the format. Who decided that is how we're doing it? Oh, that the meek guy, Josh. Yeah. The one that doesn't talk much. Right, right, right, right, right. That guy. yeah I forget. He does make a lot of IFPA-related decisions that somehow screw you over, Tom.
01:30:51
Speaker
Doesn't he? Isn't that his thing? Like, how do hurt Tom? Yeah, I think that's fair. think it's a fair assessment. ah Yeah. At least he feels bad about it.
Art and Theme in Pinball Remakes
01:30:59
Speaker
Right? please Yeah. I know he's had some sleepless nights about it.
01:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, really well. That's cool. That's cool. um What do we got? I don't know how we... Hour and a half. We still have to talk about The Walking Dead. We still have a new game that's come out recently, right?
01:31:16
Speaker
The Walking Dead. I mean, it's not really new. so Sold out everywhere. Good luck finding one. it though? is it No, no, Tom. no, Tom.
01:31:31
Speaker
No, it's not. um Okay, let's be honest. What did we No, this got me in trouble last time with Stern. No, I know. I'll talk. Nobody cares. Do I hit the button again? Do we go again? Let's go with that.
01:31:49
Speaker
No, I got... the The artwork was really picked on. here It looks too much like Deadpool, which I mean, because it's red.
01:32:03
Speaker
Is that why? i mean, um I don't know. Well, like i told you guys. didn't think looked like Deadpool. well It's colorful. It's just like i told you guys. colorful. If I look at this game, I actually, I like the art for what it is. Right. But for me, it doesn't match the theme. And I say that as a huge Walking Dead fan. I have the original games. The very first game I got, I've read all the comics. I've watched all the shows.
01:32:27
Speaker
Huge fan of it. And even when I showed my wife this, I showed my kids this. They like, my kids thought I was playing a practical joke on them. what they thought because they knew the remastered was coming out and they were curious about getting one and so when I showed it to them they didn't it it just didn't click in with them because they know what the walking dead is too so I mean it's just kind of i don't know it's just like I told you guys it feels like what Stern did was that they they pulled the walking dead into the Stern universe and
01:33:00
Speaker
is what it feels like instead of Stern saying, okay, we're going to play in the walking dead universe and pull pinball into the walk, you know, or the walking dead universe into pinball in general. So i don't know. Like it's, it's crazy too. Cause I guarantee the game's going to play great.
01:33:16
Speaker
The rules are going to be fantastic because the original was just that. So, mean, it's got the crossbow on it though. Yeah. Well, I mean, they opened up some of the shots though. They opened up the riot shot. They opened up Yeah.
01:33:30
Speaker
Yep. The right shots opened up a little bit. The tunnel shot is opened up a little bit. And I think the ramp, the left ramp had some fixing to it in general, but yeah, if you compare the right shot, you'll see it. I would have to play it. So, i mean, there originally the original game, liked the pro so much better. And I just didn't, I didn't like the crossbow, but anyways.
01:33:57
Speaker
Okay. So, Yes, you guys said ah a lot there. I i know... That's a good point. They brought Walking Dead. Well, I was honestly, I was playing with my lights because, you know, he's colorful and why not? That's a good comment of they brought Walking Dead into Stern. and And honestly, if you look at what they drew, the actual art, it's not like it's potato face or anything. Like the art is really good. The things are very well drawn.
01:34:24
Speaker
It's very well designed. It's just when i when we think of The Walking Dead, the show, It's kind of a gross, brutal, gritty show. And then I think there was a lot of people really hoping for comic book art and the comic book art is black and white.
01:34:37
Speaker
And so some people were like, they should have gone comic book art. Other people are like, it's a dark, brutal, gritty show. The original art package was disgusting. It was dark and gritty and gross and disgusting. Honestly, there are some people that feel it's one of the worst pinball packages, period.
01:34:55
Speaker
So how do you improve upon that? I think people were like, let's keep it Walking Dead, but can you make it a little less gross? A little more, maybe a little, I don't know, maybe focus more on the characters.
01:35:07
Speaker
I just don't think anybody on their bingo card was expecting colorful. like color explosion. i don't think anybody was expecting that. And so I was surprised by it. I mean, when I first saw it, like, whoa, that is a direction was not expecting.
01:35:22
Speaker
They were thinking of the comic book art, which I've, I've read the comics. There is no color. Yeah. It's black and white, right? It's black and white. Yep.
01:35:33
Speaker
Yeah. So the original versions of them. Yes. I think that to me is, um i it just reminds me of like the Kong release. There were people when Kong came out, people were like, Kong is black and white, why'd they go so colorful? So I think there are some people, Pinside specific, that are like all aboard the Stern is too colorful train And then this comes out and boom, all the color.
01:35:56
Speaker
So I don't know. Maybe people just, i think there's plenty of people that just like being mad. Oh, well, there are people that just... i am so torn on this though, because looking at it, right? Like seeing Daryl shoot a walker,
01:36:11
Speaker
through the head with a crossbow. Yeah. With the explosion behind them, that objectively looks bad. Like, I think that looks cool. Michonne slicing. So the cabinet to me looks cool. It just happens to be just desaturated, desaturated 25%.
01:36:25
Speaker
twenty five percent Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not expert on art, of course, Joel. So yeah. we know We know for a fact that like Stern, they they ramp up the saturation on their photos.
01:36:36
Speaker
I will say every pinball machine looks better in person than it does on the photos. yeah Every one of them. So there's a chance. I 100% agree with that. I have to think from a marketing standpoint, somebody at Stern would have seen this and been like, no, we're not going to cook up the saturation.
01:36:55
Speaker
AMC... AMC signed off on it. I mean, that's what I don't know. I mean, ah for i I don't it's just tough because one, the art is the only thing I can compare it to is Metallica remake. And sure, there are people that were like, I prefer Dirty Donnie's art.
01:37:10
Speaker
But there were a lot of people that saw the remake art and were like, that's incredible. There was the vast majority of people thought that. But even besides the art day one, they were already talking about the new modes they were adding.
01:37:24
Speaker
what all the mechs they've changed. Like there was a lot more that they added into that game. So for people to upgrade to a newer version of Metallica or people that have always wanted Metallica, they're like, well, this game is the best version of the game by far.
01:37:40
Speaker
Unfortunately, i just feel like with The Walking Dead reveal, They've shown us very
Marketing Strategies for Pinball Releases
01:37:44
Speaker
little of what's going to be on the, on the LCD screen. I have not heard what they've added from a code standpoint.
01:37:50
Speaker
Are there new modes? Are there new ways to play it or new experiences? I, that, that mystery alone, it's like, well, is there, is there really that much more to this game besides, you know, they've improved the layout a little bit and change the art package.
01:38:05
Speaker
I don't, I don't know those answers. And, that uncertainty is enough for people not to buy a game, right? Well, you know, and that comes from a marketing and branding standpoint, because here we are talking on a podcast. You've watched this, right? Joel, you do content and you don't have those answers still.
01:38:21
Speaker
So that's like, to me, if I'm wanting to put out a pinball machine, those are answers I want to give people. immediately And that's kind of what we talked about. Right. And that's kind of what we talked about that I thought was kind of off balance with how star Wars was released. And they kind of did the same thing again with the walking dead to where they're talking about the platform and spike three a lot and everything else. And I'm just like people, I just know this for a fact, a hundred percent confirmation on this people that are seeing this, they don't know spike three. They don't know spike two. They don't know spike one.
01:38:54
Speaker
They don't know if it's spike 50. All they care about is does the machine look cool? Does it, is the shots fun? What all can I do with this machine? And that's kind of like, I'm wondering how, when Stern's going to push it towards establishing what happens under that glass, as opposed to that. This is spike three and this has, yeah you know, certain speakers and stuff like that, because just like, that's why we're having this conversation because yeah,
01:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, we don't know those answers. Now, from my understanding, I think there's going to be another wizard mode added into this game a little bit earlier to the start button compared to what it is. To my understanding, I think that's what's going to happen. I remember something in the webinar talked about that. Maybe somebody can confirm that. But but yeah, you're absolutely right. It's yeah. fallouts They did that.
01:39:44
Speaker
Yeah, Merle and one other character, I think. Yeah. yeah So it's, I don't know. And and you've you've made the comment before. There are people that discover pinball every day. Or like discover that you can buy pinball machine every day. So yeah if they go to Flippin' Out or they go to the pinball ah and pinwall company's website and they see what what machines they can buy right now.
01:40:07
Speaker
Walking Dead's available. it It wasn't available before because it was an older game, but now it's going to be available. I just know... I'll tell you, it's going an uphill battle convincing Walking Dead fans when they see this because I've tried already. I've tried already with a couple of them and I'm just, you know... That's my job to figure that out. I just... I don't know the answer yet, but... Walking Dead as a theme, though, is not... It's not old enough to be considered retro or... um I'm trying to think of like...
01:40:36
Speaker
Well, the themes just not the theme's just not as strong as it was. so and When it came out the first time, right? When there was like 15, 20 million people tuning in every Sunday night with watch parties and all that. Let's face facts. That was an American iconic moment, right? In that time. And it's just, it's kind of got diluted over the years, which that happens, right? It's what can you do, but...
01:40:59
Speaker
I don't know. I just hope that gameplay comes out on it pretty quick. And I think that's going to be the key of it. Gameplay, people playing it on location. and think that's going to be kind of like the long tail on this, that maybe it's not going to be the shooting star that comes out of the gate super fast, but maybe it can pick up later on.
01:41:17
Speaker
Well, let's, I agree. mean, I'm going to stream it here, hopefully within the next few weeks, whenever it comes out. I'm looking forward to playing it. I mean, it is The Walking Dead. Let's not forget. The game's going to play great. The Walking Dead a fantastic game. Yeah.
01:41:29
Speaker
I have no doubt it's going be fun. I had a blast when I streamed the original, you know, a few months back. It's going to be a great time. I just want to know Tom, I need to know this, Joel, because Tom loved the fun house.
01:41:41
Speaker
art so much on the le he's gonna feel about this that's what i'm curious of when he bought one tom that's a great point no i'm not getting one yeah so even though they've improved the layout and they're gonna add maybe there'll be another wizard mode you just i have to play it i got a pro it has expression lights the bullets shoot backwards tom we need we need to revisit this in six months to see if tom breaks down and gets one i got to I got a feeling when he plays it. I got a feeling.
01:42:12
Speaker
ah um Comment below on the YouTube video or email us. Is Tom going to buy one? Let's skirt that pool. I mean, it's just, it's very different than Metallica where the LEs sold out.
01:42:23
Speaker
They sold out day, beside they were sold out beforehand and and now still ah the Metallica LEs go for well above ah MSRP. I mean, it's... Oh yeah, there was it there was no way this was going to sell out day one or week one. It just... well And it's not not because of what the game looks like. It's because of the theme. It's because it's Walking Dead. It just was not going to do that right now.
01:42:45
Speaker
So the the question, the last, maybe this is another question I want to, or we can go down this this path. But, um ah you know, we don't talk much about Harry Potter. Harry harry Potter has sold incredibly well.
01:42:57
Speaker
And they they're just going to be making games for a while. Like that game, let's not underestimate, like Harry Potter has done very well. I'm just, that's all going to say. I'm just going to set that aside. But true when we look at Stern recently,
01:43:08
Speaker
I do not, I don't know numbers, but I do not think Star Wars Fall the Empire has sold as well as as as Stern or distributors probably hoped. That's an assumption for me personally, but um the vibe I'm getting, because there's still LEs available, and this game is like, it's it initially it has not sold as well as as probably people hoped, and then same thing with The Walking Dead. I do not think The Walking Dead has sold week one as well as Sterner distributors probably hoped.
01:43:40
Speaker
Now, you compare that to Barrels of fun Winchester Mystery House, and they sold out day one. You compare that to Beetlejuice, which is coming out this Friday.
01:43:51
Speaker
They've sold out. Nobody's even seen the game yet. Do you think numbers have something to do with that? 999 Beetlejuice? Oh, yeah. If Stern says, hey, we're only selling Star Wars, then we're sitting here talking about how fast it sold out Same with Walking Dead. If they said we're only making a thousand of these, one model, a thousand. No, no. Walking Dead's not that powerful. theme No, I can tell you that right now. and you guys And you guys know how I know that. I've told you guys about how I yeah look at themes and the algorithms that i look at.
01:44:25
Speaker
yeah everything i I think if they would have said, okay, Walking Dead, there's 350 to 400, I think then we're we're really close.
01:44:36
Speaker
I think if it's just that and that's that, I think we're really, really close. Now, Beetlejuice is the exact opposite. Now, if you guys want to know, like by every analytic I've looked at, there could be 2,000 to 2,500 of those to actually sell at the price point that they put it that that so That was going to be my question. Are they, did they, I mean, I know Barrels was asking the same thing when they sold out. Did we leave money on the table?
01:45:02
Speaker
What did I tell you as soon as I saw Winchester? Like this game is going to sell out. It's going to sell out quick. yeah Like because there's no doubt about it. It's just, so, and that's because there's certain things, there's certain certain variables to this.
01:45:15
Speaker
Unfortunately, you can't predict the future and you just don't know. You can't unless you're looking at the right things. But remember, for manufacturers, all they have to do is sell through to dealers for the most part, right? And they they have some direct, but it's different because they're B2B. They're not B2C necessarily.
01:45:35
Speaker
So for us, we have to figure out how to move. So when we talk about, well, is is Star Wars not doing as as good
Pinball Market Dynamics
01:45:43
Speaker
as this? ah i would say, yeah, Star Wars is doing fine because Stern has sold the Star Wars, right? Stern has sold the e LEs to the dealers, to the distributors.
01:45:52
Speaker
Like they've made their money, right? They've sold the premiums. They've sold the pros. I think a lot of people forget about that. When you see inventory setting at a dealer, well, that's because the dealer has bought that game.
01:46:05
Speaker
They bought that game wholesale. So it's, ah it's already, you know, the manufacturers already made their money, but, um, but yeah, i I, don't know. I think what's going to be very interesting because people are going to definitely compare things really fast with Winchester and with, uh, Beetlejuice coming out and Winchester.
01:46:23
Speaker
i don't know, maybe they could have done 600, but I think a lot of it is, is, you know, people People knew that Dune could be a fun game based on the atmosphere, and they've really pushed the cinematic part of it, right?
01:46:36
Speaker
But then we got to consider brand recognition. Carl D'Angelo is known to pinball enthusiasts, i.e. pinball is known to people. That's a known commodity. So when you come out of the gate, because look what happened with Foo Fighters.
01:46:50
Speaker
Remember those LEs? yeah They all sold out. Jack Danger, people what it was the designer. And that was at $13,000. The same price. That was two and a half years ago. The same price today that people are like, oh, that's too much.
01:47:04
Speaker
That was yeah early 2023. So a lot of this is brand behind you. That's why Beetlejuice is going to do so well. Not only is it a great theme, not only is it priced to just move, not only is it underproduced because of units, but Spooky has gotten their brand to be known.
01:47:22
Speaker
Like people are diehard Spooky fans and that took over a decade to do, but that's exactly what they've done at this point. So there's, there's a lot of powerful or a lot of power in that.
01:47:34
Speaker
Yeah, and reading the the Winchester forums, I mean, there are people that now, now that like, they're ah they're a diehard Barrels of Fun fan. They're like, i don't I don't care. Whatever the next game is, I'm in. um It's momentum.
01:47:47
Speaker
Yeah. Momentum. It's huge thing. Dune proved itself. um They want to support that smaller manufacturer. and um Think of this, Joel. Think of this. Momentum, though.
01:47:57
Speaker
When Winchester sold out, what happened with Dune? It upticked. Yeah. When Evil Dead sold out, what happened instantly was spooky. Um, I mean, people started getting on the list for the next game, right?
01:48:12
Speaker
like instantly, instantly. There's so much about momentum, but granted now ah once like, you know, and Jersey Jack realized this, right? Like they realized momentum after what happened with avatar.
01:48:26
Speaker
It was kind of so, so when it came out, what did Jack do at TPF had a seminar? He was just all a sudden, Oh, by the way, say don't spend another dollar. Yeah.
01:48:36
Speaker
I mean, hundred dollar tell harry producttter comes out everything in product and everything in business, when you're dealing with new products coming out, new timelines and everything, it's all about momentum. So that's what we're seeing right now happen.
01:48:50
Speaker
So where does Stern have momentum? And what I mean is Elwynn, there are a lot of people that are like, I'm going to buy every Elwynn game. I have full faith in Elwynn. um With that said, there are still Kong Elys available.
01:49:05
Speaker
Right. They're, they're out there. Are they they, are they available at Stern? Not at Stern. Stern sold them. Then Stern sold them out. Okay. Well, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, the dealers and the distributors, they have to market, they have to hustle. They've got to sell the game.
01:49:22
Speaker
mean, that's just, that's just how it is. Now, if that game was still at Stern, right? Stern was inventorying that game. Then there would be a lot of concern that, Then I do wonder, like, let's say they come out with a thousand LEs and there's still 200 of them sitting at the factory because dealers didn't buy them.
01:49:43
Speaker
now we're how do you Now we're having a different conversation. And I think we've talked about this before. At some point, there has to be a breaking point for the dealers though, right? If good on Stern for getting wall out the door, but if the, if the, if the overflow or not the, if the, um,
01:49:59
Speaker
the backup is now dealer inventory where it just sits there. There's gotta be a point where the dealers are like, we can't take, we can't take anymore. Yeah. That's, that's a real thing. Cause when you look at the, the dynamics of today, think how many manufacturers there are that are producing great pinball machines.
01:50:18
Speaker
Like they're not producing average pinball machines at this point to the end consumer. Cause all that matters is even those of us in the industry, we could criticize every machine left and right. But the end of the day, it just matters. Did it sell? And are people having fun that bought it? yeah And we can say that they are with barrels of fun stuff. We can say that they are with a lot of the stern games. We can say that they are with the Jersey Jack games and we can say that they are with the spooky game. So when we look at those core four, that's here.
01:50:46
Speaker
right that's I think you're going to see it just happen more and more because what happens when manufacturing capability scales up with these other companies and they start releasing two games a year. like There's going be a lot.
What Makes Pinball Fun?
01:50:59
Speaker
Where are you currently having fun in pinball?
01:51:06
Speaker
I'm not. I'm not. He's like, I'm not, I'm not. it will Let me point this out too, Tom, because I think you, we played this also. Have you ever streamed for 18 hours? Oh my God. Expo.
01:51:22
Speaker
Multimorphic. Princess Bride was fun. Portal was fun. Portal's like awesome. like There's a lot of people upping their game across board. is awesome. Cactus Canyon, Pulp Fiction.
01:51:32
Speaker
Fun games from CGC. Jared and I talked about that a lot. Um, on our drive home from Expo. And I was like, all right, Jared, you know, he's, he played Dune when he was there. He played Winchester. He played more Kong, you know, cause that was one thing that was really cool. Jared and I commentated for, for Tom for a few hours, had a blast. Always love doing that. Thank you. um And you brought me Diet Dew, which was awesome.
01:51:55
Speaker
I kept him hydrated. Yes. And I loved it. We we really have. But it it really is so eye opening when you have all those sterns sitting out there. And we commentated for three plus hours. And you know what games we commentated on?
01:52:07
Speaker
It's all Elwyn's. It's the tournament players you pick. It was Jurassic Park, Godzilla, Iron Maiden, Jaws, Kong. Outside of that, outside of those games, what else did we commentate on? No, you yeah, you you you definitely commentated on Metallica because I... want to but I think there was a Metallica and a... um I think somebody picked a Star Wars for Fall of the Empire, I think.
01:52:33
Speaker
But that's it. Like, it's like, that's it. Everybody else, it's just like, oh, we're doing Kong again. Oh, we're doing this. Like, clearly, Elwyn's doing well. Elwyn's doing well. But... um I don't know. was just asking, yeah, where what are where you, and I'll ask you too, Travis, where are you currently having fun in pinball?
01:52:51
Speaker
Because where Jared and I swapped, or not swapped, but our conversation coming home was like, he's like, dude, I'm just loving these. I'm loving spooky games. I'm loving barrels of fun games right now. Like Portal. I was like, okay, you got $11,000. You can buy Evil Dead or you can buy Dune.
01:53:09
Speaker
You could buy Portal. You could get into a P3 and buy a Portal. Or you can buy Kong LE. Where are you at? And in his mind, he's like, dude, those are all really good options. like Really good options.
01:53:23
Speaker
As they always say, competition's a good thing. or Harry Potter. Harry Potter also, yeah. like There's so many good games out there. That little game over there by Jersey Jacket. We even played Avatar again over there. We want everybody to have good games.
01:53:39
Speaker
Yeah. Portal's legit. Portal was watching, playing that. We had a, what is it? Steven Silverman or whatever, like explaining the game, showing us what to do. Oh yeah. And it's always cool.
01:53:50
Speaker
And that's, it's such a unique experience, like to see Jared's face light up when some of the different, like that game portal is done so well on that system because of where the ball can come up and, and what, but it's,
01:54:02
Speaker
I know. I mean, I'm in a position, I'm like, dude, do I want to commit to a P3? I portals by far the the most tempting proposal to committing to a P3. I think too, we're in such interesting times that you see the rise of YouTube. You see the rise of content creators. You see the rise of just people getting their opinions out there. And these designers, the coders, the manufacturers, everybody can get feedback in a very rapid manner.
01:54:30
Speaker
yeah And that allows them to pivot for a future ah reiterate, right? For future projects and all that. And think we're going to see that keep getting driven forward. So that's what, that's what fascinates me the most that I almost feel like just in these past 10 years or so, we've really seen that change go that direction.
01:54:50
Speaker
And we kind of talked about this, Joel, back when ah when Godzilla came out, that I was wondering what would happen because this layout is so unique, so fun. And I remember we were on a stream. We were talking about how Godzilla will end up being the number one pin of all time. Like we just knew it right then and there.
01:55:07
Speaker
ye And I always wondered, would people going into the future take that as inspiration for either their designs or how they want to do rules? And I feel like you see the DNA start to spread out more and more between these companies and even certain things they're doing. Like, I wonder if some of the spooky DNA will get out there elsewhere. I wonder if some of the things Jersey Jack does, what that DNA do?
01:55:30
Speaker
Like, yeah, I mean, yeah like who knows, right? So I'm always, I'm always curious about that. And that's why I think no matter what, always just be excited about new pinball. Like you may not like all of it. You may not agree with all of it, but I think each one has a legit reason to exist in the ecosystem. And you can find fun points.
01:55:51
Speaker
Each one has lots of fun behind them. Oh, well, Tom's definitional fun. We already know that. But 2025 has been a killer year. Like, honestly, I think Twippy voting and stuff is going to be really hard.
01:56:04
Speaker
Like, so many good games. So many good games. But i do want I do want you guys to answer that question. i do where Where are you currently... Finding fun. It's supposed to be open-ended.
01:56:15
Speaker
i'm I'm all about audience participation. is read is but Leave a comment. Leave a comment. of of If you're watching YouTube, leave a comment. Where are you currently finding fun in pinball? Because I'm curious. Where's your fun, Tom?
01:56:27
Speaker
When I say that, what stands out to you? like What was the first thought of, that's fun? That's what I've experienced recently that was fun in pinball. I'm still thinking about it. i don't know.
01:56:38
Speaker
I mean, are we talking about... Just go ahead. Go ahead, Tom. Tom knows now. and I mean, I have fun playing the new games. I have fun interacting with people at shows and tournaments and things like that.
01:56:55
Speaker
I mean, you know, that's that's my life. I will. Maybe this is. My answer is when I think of the last few weeks, what were the funnest moments I've had in pinball? ah The Jedi ball saver on on this game.
01:57:13
Speaker
but It brings me so much joy every single time I see that flat ball fly out. i That is fun to me. Now that I got my X-Men dialed in, just seeing that ball whiz around the play field when i I, that is fun to me. And then Dune, I got, I spelled my Dune letters. I got to the wizard mode.
01:57:33
Speaker
Of course, immediately I lost it. But since then on that, I did it on stream playing that first wizard mode. That first wizard mode is so atmospheric. The sound package, the everything like that is such a fun moment to me. Like that is, that that's what I'm saying right now.
01:57:48
Speaker
That is what's fun to me in pinball dynamic shots. seeing the ball do cool stuff in super atmospheric modes. That's what I'm loving about pinball. So you know, what's interesting about what you're saying?
01:57:59
Speaker
It's that I hope manufacturers are listening to this because this is what a lot of people feel. And the reason why I hope they're listening to this is because when people see pinball, this is what they first think of. So if you lead with this, if that's your brand identity, that these are your games and that's what you're leading with more people, I guarantee you are going to want your products.
01:58:21
Speaker
A lot more because if you emphasize those parts, because that's, that's what's priority for you, Joel. Right. And Tom, I'm sure you get games. and when you play, that's all you're focused on is to find fun shots, fun moments.
01:58:35
Speaker
And yeah, I just, I just, I think sometimes we get away from that. Right. When we look at the art and we look at, you know, the, the packaging and the toppers and stuff like that. And that's all cool and all, but at the end of the day, you have to play the game.
01:58:50
Speaker
So it's like, yeah what, what is the cool parts in the game? That's fun to play. That's what that's what I'm always looking for. I completely agree. I will tell you, I will admit, I mean, I've packed up Dune, but, um, I took the glass off and I went ahead and I threw the ball around to see what the second wizard mode is.
Upcoming Pinball Updates and Community
01:59:08
Speaker
Awesome. And then I threw the ball around and saw what the third wizard mode is. I'll tell you what, that third wizard mode ah is incredible. And the way it ends is insane. It's its so like that moment feeling atmospheric light show. It's absurd.
01:59:24
Speaker
So do they have an option to play that? Like with your flipper buttons? yet, I heard. I saw on the Pinside forum, they're about to add the fourth one. And I think they're gonna make it so that you will be able to select the mode.
01:59:37
Speaker
So that way people will get experience the different ones that are in the game. Like at the start button. Not at the... Well, maybe if they they... They need to put that at the start button. Yeah, they should. Challenge modes would be great, but I think the idea is once you've spelled Dune and you hit the scoop to start at Mini Wizard mode, you actually select which one you're doing.
01:59:53
Speaker
I think that's what they're suggesting. Now, right now, they are in somewhat of a chronological order. I was just going to say that, aren't they? Yeah. yeah Chronological Yeah, but I don't i don't know. i just they're it's um They're impressive. that's all That's all I'm saying. Travis, are you having fun in pinball or you hate it because it's your job now and you just... No, I have fun every day. like i i have Legitimately, I have the dream job because yeah I'm going to get sappy that air hockey table the other day. know that really got you going. Oh my God. Yeah, we need to post that picture.
02:00:23
Speaker
Today, I put together a bubble hockey table and those those are actually legit. Those are fun. That's fun right there. No, like I wake up, I love working in the pinball industry just because i love what I do.
02:00:35
Speaker
ah love helping people understand the game of pinball. I love introducing the game of pinball to people. i love... being able to talk to people in pinball, like getting to hang out with you guys. This is my poker night, right? Like this is where I get to have the guys time. And it just so happens to be, there's a couple other people that listen to our knucklehead conversation, you know? so I like, I enjoy all that. That's why no matter what it's,
02:00:59
Speaker
it's a It's a fun thing. It's for me personally, the whole thing is fun. Yeah, there's some stress about it, but it's like, okay, if a game's not selling so well, okay, that's on me. I got to figure that out. But then there's going to always be the next product.
02:01:14
Speaker
Figure it out from there. Keep keep going, keep going. That's the way I look at I never want to, like, I'll critique certain manufacturers, just give my opinion. But at the end of the day, it's on me.
02:01:26
Speaker
to figure the shit out and get it, get it moving to the next person and teach them about pinball and try to spread it out more. So I think, think there's a lot of it with that, that I find fun.
02:01:37
Speaker
I just seeing somebody like today, prime example of it, took a pinball. So there's two people I ran into today that got their first pinball machines today.
02:01:48
Speaker
We took a Willy Wonka to a house and very first one they've ever owned. And this lady was just over the moon. She was so ecstatic. And so seeing something like that and she was just like, yeah, we're going to get a Jaws soon. I can't wait to get that. And now we're even thinking about our third pinball machine. I'm like, okay, you guys are going down the rabbit hole.
02:02:11
Speaker
Let's go. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then there was another, another guy came in with his son-in-law and sweetheart of a, a man. He just, he was in there and he's like, my son-in-law has been great. I want to get him some for his birthday.
02:02:24
Speaker
And he's like, he really likes, yeah, I know. Right. I'm like, I wish my father-in-law would do that for me. Shout out to big Steve. I'm sure he's listening to this. Yeah. But, um, but he played star Wars, uh, the newest one and he just absolutely loved it. And that's what I mean. It's like, it's, it's interesting seeing people that are just now finding out about pinball and they're not quite jaded yet. They don't quite understand like, Oh, you're, so you're supposed to not like the art.
02:02:50
Speaker
you know, Oh, they you know, you're supposed to hate that sound or you're supposed to not like that. layout Show him the magnetic ball save. Cause that probably would have, that would have, that would have, Oh yeah. got real excited. That. Yeah. So cool. Yeah. and it's my Yeah. My hat, but yeah, I'm telling you that's, that's where I find my fun. Yeah. I, I have more fun doing that or teaching people like doing the YouTube videos and doing tutorials than I do actually playing in tournaments.
02:03:14
Speaker
Like I just, I just enjoy that stuff more or just sitting down and having a beer with you guys. That's, that's fun. Also. I I'll just go ahead and cover it. I mean, all three of us were at expo. My brother was there as well. And thank you to everybody that came and said hi.
02:03:26
Speaker
And it's, it's always humbling and always surprising to know how many people either watch our streams, watch our channels or listen to this podcast. And, um, yeah, we do it cause we love it.
02:03:37
Speaker
We've done it 69 episodes. We're, we're going to continue doing this. We, we, we have a blast. This is a ton of fun. 69 more. How many would that be? uh 138 okay yeah yeah that number so wow i should have let you do it i should have let you and found that number that joel i don't know if you've noticed i have so much cough medicine in me right now i'm trying not to call on the mic oh But I honestly, for everybody that did that, um it's awesome. we love We love what we're doing and we love that it's bringing joy apparently here. People are enjoying this. ah Yeah. Love the support. Obviously, thanks for everybody on on Patreon that supports us here or anybody that's bought Silverball swag. It's always funny to see that every month that we sell a t-shirt or two.
02:04:23
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for all the the kind words at Expo and all the support for this podcast because... It's just the three of us having a conversation. That's all we're doing. um Was there anything else you guys want to talk about? Because believe it or not, the reason I'm sitting this way is because Star Wars is leaving tomorrow and I got to take this glass off and start throwing this ball around and make a tutorial.
02:04:43
Speaker
So I still have to do that tonight. I wasn't going to reset up my streaming rig. I love how we talked about the rules and you're like, and then you're like, I'm going to do a tutorial on it tonight. still got to do a tutorial. I have full faith in Ray. Like this game, I still recommend this over Guardians. I'm just, I'm not, I'm excited to see the direction that this is going because there's only going to be more added to it.
02:05:05
Speaker
we need to We need to figure out what is on. So we know what what is on your agenda. What's on Tom's agenda this week? What's what's going on in Tom Graff world? Modeling jobs? Is D82 tournaments going well?
02:05:19
Speaker
Yeah. Lumberjack Johnny tournaments? There's a big ah classics tournament on Saturday at District 82. So that'll be fun. Nice. ah glory It's all about the score.
02:05:33
Speaker
There are no modes. It's classic. I did. Um, you guys were doing, so we're in a chat with Carl D'Angelo and I was like, you guys were talking about score, jackpots, points, all that. And, uh,
02:05:46
Speaker
That's what it was. ah Tom, you're like, yeah, i got X-Men. I got to figure out how to play so Sentinel Multi-Ball again and or Save the City Multiple. I was like, oh, you hit every shot. The progress in the upper right. He's like, I know that. I just need to know where the jackpots are and how to do this. I was like, all right, that's right. You're looking for points.
02:06:01
Speaker
Nobody cares about that. So I'm like, Carl, are people going to enjoy your game without focusing on points? And he just said, of course, that's all you're. So, yeah, it's ah it's good stuff.
02:06:14
Speaker
but um i like that joel you should just wrote to him like carl on a scale of shitty to 10 tell me how good is your game just be honest with is this game gonna fun here's the new meta you come out with a game there's no score no score We talked about that. I think like 40 podcasts ago, we talked about something about that. If you just played a game and it just had the moments in it, right? To where you don't even know what to do. And they have that now in Stearns. I think they have that on Rush, right? Where you can just have the concert and that's it? well Like on the LCD?
02:06:52
Speaker
You know the original Super Mario Brothers on n NES? It has a score. Who cares? Who cares about the score? Four-year-old me didn't. My ass was dying to Goombas over and over again. Hell yeah. You're just trying to beat the levels. But pinball can be that, though, if you're just going for wizard modes. Yeah. That's me. That's the way I play. I've done that. I'm like, don't give a crap about the score. I just want to get to the end so I can get to crash the gate.
02:07:17
Speaker
Exactly. Joel, Tom and I did that at Stern Pro Circuit Finals. We didn't give a shit about the score. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what? The only score that I've really ever cared about is on TNA.
02:07:28
Speaker
TNA, that score, the last digit really shows you how many reactors you've blown up oh is that why you Is that why you cared about it? so like Yeah. i don't care about the I don't care about any other digits. I care about that last digit. If it's a four, I destroyed four reactors.
02:07:43
Speaker
That's the score. I don't care about score. I don't care about score. i I mean, i say that, but if I go to a bar and I see they have Insider Connected and they have a board set up, oh and I'm like, wait, that's all I have to do to get my name on that board?
02:07:55
Speaker
You care about score now? Then I'll care about score. But in my household, i believe it or not, maybe i'm a I'm a chump, but I'm paying for the extra Insider Connected level. I got grandfathered in, so it's only $40 month.
02:08:06
Speaker
But I'm not going to have home leaderboards. Did you say $40 a month? Or is that $40 a year? Year. I was about to say $40 a month, Joel.
02:08:16
Speaker
No, $40 a year. I'm not going to have a home leaderboard because I'll tell you what, nobody else in this household cares about score. So I don't need to see my name the top of your list. You know, when was watching Game 7 of the World Series, I'm like, you know, don't really care about the score.
02:08:33
Speaker
That's a different, completely different game, Tom. It's not. Now, they're not out there playing baseball by themselves. Obviously, they're competing against another team. I'm in the basement playing by myself. But what motivates me is how do I get deeper in the game? How do I experience that moment again?
02:08:51
Speaker
That's what I care about. Yeah, so you're still on the next level. Think about the most basic level that we talked about earlier where there's people out there. No, no, no, you're not. I'm saying the most basic level is people that just play the game.
02:09:04
Speaker
They just shoot shots and really have no general idea. They just know that it's lighting up differently. I there's so many of them and I don't mean it to be rude, but I, I went to a, when I first got in the hobby, there was local collector that had nine machines.
02:09:20
Speaker
I thought that was crazy that this guy would have nine machines. He invited me. He had a whole party to pinball community. Only psychopath would have that many machines. He had a party. Joe, listen to Listen me one second. He admitted he didn't know any of the rules.
02:09:32
Speaker
He doesn't care. ah That's fine. That's fine. You're streaming tomorrow, right? Sure am. You streaming Star Wars? I'm streaming Munsters, baby. Munsters.
02:09:43
Speaker
Are you putting a bounty on Munsters? Here's what you to do, and you have to do this. You have to do this. and This is a demand by Tom Graff. Oh, I'm listening. Whatever you need, Tom. I want you to cover up the score and stream the whole time.
02:09:57
Speaker
No, I'm being dead serious. There's no way you'll do that. I'm being dead serious. Joel doesn't have the balls do that. Put your money where your mouth is. Okay. And what's, who's that? You think that's going to bother me, but you can't cover Jared score. And he gets the gloat about winning every day. He beats on everyone. Yes. Okay.
02:10:18
Speaker
What's sad is in my head. I'm already thinking, how would I do that? No BS. Oh, just throw a block over it. But the problem is at the end every game, obviously the score shows in the middle. It's true. You can still block and score during in the game. take ah Take a color border and just put it right over it.
02:10:32
Speaker
It's easy to do. i just don't. I don't know. That's me. There's no way. joe Joel will not do that. I would irish think Zach would just flip out. Why is your game covered that way?
02:10:43
Speaker
yeah It'd be flipping out pinball, but it a different It'd be flipping tables. Yeah. um Okay. Was there anything else the two of you guys want to talk about tonight? I will tell you what, though, Joel. You're you're lucky Tom's suggesting this on Munsters because if there's ever going to be one game where it's perfectly fine, ah cover up your score, it's Munsters.
02:11:04
Speaker
Because yeah you're basically just trying to get to that wizard mode once or twice throughout the game. so it's my I think I have a very clear objective with Munsters. And so you i hope I want a full report on the next podcast on the depth.
02:11:20
Speaker
of the game. oh How do you feel about the depth of it? Should I block the score? Sure. Okay. Why not? Are going to do it the whole entire time? I think it would be funny and just get the chat's reaction to it. You're not going to let him tell the chat what he's doing? He's just going to purposely just have it blocked?
02:11:38
Speaker
I think that would be funny. i think you like so Hey, why is your score covered? And you just ignore it the whole time? You're like, what are you talking about? when i leave gary I leave Jared's uncovered.
02:11:49
Speaker
That's the goal. you could be You could just say, like, scores beyond me. I don't i don't need the scores. Scores below me. don't need the points. I've ascended. I just go for wizard modes.
02:12:05
Speaker
Yes. hey i I think once again, if you're watching this on YouTube, do you care about score? Do you care? to Leave a comment. but Let us know. i don't know i know I mean, I know there's people that don't care about the score, and that's that's fine. Yeah.
02:12:19
Speaker
You know what I wish you and Jared would do? here's how here's how tom we could really cover up score i wish you and jared would have and i'd watch the shit out this you guys have a competition night towards pen golf objective pen golf i just though i just want i want zach to bring joel and em m to play Oh gosh. I don't care about the score.
02:12:48
Speaker
Then I do care about it. Joel could Discord in Bob Matthews. It'd be awesome.
02:12:59
Speaker
I don't know. the school yeah it's ah I will say anytime that Zach is part of the stream and he sets bounties to do giveaways, the bounties are they're always pin golf related. They're always achievement based.
02:13:11
Speaker
ah He's never been like, oh, if you break 10 million, you get you know we'll do a giveaway. No, it's like, if you can get that mini wizard mode, if you can complete this task, you know, dude, you can save your ball, the one handed prophecy mode, like I've had the one tournaments where score wasn't a thing. It was, you got to do this. And that, but even the tournament you just played the, the average process say that the stern pro circuit.
02:13:34
Speaker
Yep. And that's the last time we'll ever talk about that. God forsaken tournament again. So, No, I mean, I do. And I, you know, Josh had asked me and I told him straight out. I said, I like it.
02:13:47
Speaker
You know, who won even though I got smashed, I liked it I think Z-Mac did. Z-Mac beat Raymond. So they can win in any format is what I'm hearing. Yeah. yeah Yeah. talent Talent's going to. Yeah. They're they're too good.
02:14:02
Speaker
They're way too good. All right. It's okay. Okay. Let's ah let's plug this. Let's plug it up. We'll start with you, Tom. i I do triple drain like Travis.
02:14:15
Speaker
Yes, you do, and you do it well. And Foxy. Better than most. Yeah. Foxy's Pinball. Check out his stuff on Silverball Swag. Check him out on Twitch. Check him out on all the socials.
02:14:27
Speaker
And I mean all of them. Just check me out.
02:14:33
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Go Travis. Oh, baby.
02:14:38
Speaker
ah I also do triple drain with Tom and occasionally Joel. Joel's on here too. He's great. um And then YouTube at the Pinball Company. You guys can watch that. See me be a fool over there doing tutorials and stuff like that. I can't wait for your next one, dude.
02:14:53
Speaker
I cannot. It's going to be heading in a whole new direction. Just some. I'm so excited for him. Just some I've had so many people asking me for this. I'm just like, like gritting through my teeth. Like, I felt like Kent Murphy bunning.
02:15:08
Speaker
if Now that's, you guys probably don't know that. that's That's like a deep, deep cut. But yeah. We'll see. Is there a score involved in bunning?
02:15:21
Speaker
this This video would have been out today too, but I had to redo some things because it actually got clipped for a copyright and i'm like, okay, that's weird. ah Which one was that? yeah Mandalorian.
02:15:37
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. Well, I'll just out and say it. There's no hiding it. Like I'm challenging Joel for his glass off world championship.
Tournament Strategies and Game Design Respect
02:15:45
Speaker
ah I mean, ah imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
02:15:49
Speaker
That's what I've heard. So, you know, when you think, hey, how do you do a tutorial well? Skip that glass off. Skip the glass off. But we're not telling you rules, though.
02:16:00
Speaker
But I'm not telling them rules. It's strategy. It's pure strategy. No, no that's it's needed. Because i've had I've had people turn to me, and they're like, okay, I'm in a tournament. How do I score the most point most points? I'm like, no. And you're asking Joel? I don't. Yeah. Or they're like, you know this game. Where's the animal? I'm like, should know. Name and shame these people, Joel. We need to know what souls need saving.
02:16:21
Speaker
they need They need better options is what saying. You definitely have rules knowledge. I've learned. Yeah. I like. Yeah. i I enjoy pinball and I enjoy learning the rules and I'm it's yeah.
02:16:36
Speaker
I love it. I love I have huge respect for for game designers and whatnot because it's it's hard to yeah to make these fun and they're they're fun. Joel, I know we give you shit all the time, but I will tell the listeners yeah that Joel knows his stuff. Just ignore that he thought there was no upper flipper on Foo Fighters and all that. I do know there's an upper flipper on Led Zeppelin because I had that shot dialed in. ah
02:17:07
Speaker
Unlike Travis. And... and Yeah, and I know i know when when's the time to buy a game, and that's when you can buy an X-Men. Right, Tom? That's
Promotions and Listener Engagement
02:17:15
Speaker
right. Yep. All right. travel No, you won't.
02:17:18
Speaker
Okay. And yes, my I do the Flippin' Out Pinball stream every Wednesday night with my brother. We also have some tutorials there. So check out the soon-to-be Star Wars... ah Follow the Empire tutorial. Hopefully I'm going to film that literally right now.
02:17:32
Speaker
And um yeah, check all a lot of our stuff out on on um what are easy we got some merch on Zazzle, Silver Ball Swag. um Do the ah beat the score. Submit some stuff to Sterns Beat the Score. I think that's a really cool thing to potentially have your own username as a badge.
02:17:49
Speaker
um I think is a really cool thing that they're doing there. And, um, uh, hopefully spooky has an amazing reveal in a few days and look forward beetle juice. And yeah, I know we'll, we'll definitely record before the end of the year to try to round out our thoughts on the year and all that fun stuff. But, um, yeah, really appreciate all the support. Appreciate all the people that said hi at expo.
02:18:11
Speaker
Appreciate all the people that listen. Um, like always Tom, you get the last words. Don't reject anybody like the dot star.