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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 64 - Were games better 20 years ago?!!
1.1k Plays26 days ago
Hosts: Joel Engelberth, Tom Graf and Travis Murie
We are back to our normal recording set up and decided to jump right into the action. King Kong is here and we have so many thoughts about it. Joel has spent a lot of time recently with Lord of the Rings so we decide to have a fun game comparing the masterpiece that is Lord of the Rings to a few of the latest modern games. Have things gotten better or worse? Tune in and find out!
Thanks again for all the support everyone:)
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Travis' stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePinballCompanyTom's stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@FoxcitiespinballJoel's stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@FlipNOutPinball
Shoutout to Jackson Gee and his incredible artwork. jacksongee.comShoutout to Brad Johanson and his company Alter Creative Media for his intro video. Altercreativemedia.com
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Transcript
Introducing Triple Drain Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
three guys who like the talking ball So we came up with a clever name We're Joel and Travis Donovan talking ball And we call ourselves Triple Drain Triple Drain We're Triple Triple Drain
00:00:24
Speaker
All right. um I have been told that um apparently you want the beginning of a YouTube video or a podcast to be engaging. You want people not to click away. So being that we already played a theme song, you've probably already clicked away. But if you haven't clicked away at this point, um I don't really, I don't care about either of your days. I don't want to catch up. I just want to dive right into, I just want to dive right into the hot topics,
Podcasting Challenges and Apologies
00:00:48
Speaker
right? We just, ah there's no reason for... Joel's hot. Banter. It's getting hot in here.
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. uh hot topics joel's golf cart caught on on fire oh my god golf cart i got a new golf cart um i sold the old one and got a new one and it is excellent excellent which is a hot topic i mean we could really dive in there if uh now that would yep um okay so let's talk about um this is dumb tom how you doing i'm good thanks thanks joel you're just good just get moving travis No, the rear the reality is if people have listened or watched this podcast to this, you know, they know.
00:01:25
Speaker
They know what they've signed up for. They know what they've signed up for. I think our intros are fine. I know what Joel's referring to here, Tom, because we've talked about this. All I was referring to is I've noticed a pattern that every single podcast we have, at least recently in the past few months, is... yeah Joel apologizing for us not doing a podcast before. yeah We just need to get you, since we have our own YouTube channel now, Joel, just release like an apology video every other week between podcasts. We have lives, people. it's it's We just don't sit in front of the camera all the time. 100%.
00:02:00
Speaker
And sure, there's enough... there's there's a There's enough stuff that I can understand. I can understand how people do a podcast a week or even two. I could get it. There's enough little stuff.
00:02:11
Speaker
But the reality is if we were to if we were to talk about something once a week, like I would hope our podcasts are like less than 30 minutes. you know it's just Otherwise, you're just repeating yourself. You're just repeating yourself. Why? That's all content creation is, Joel. is repeating yeah It's just all of us knuckleheads repeating ourselves in different ways. that's yeah If you guys want to know, everybody watching this, listening to this, as a content creator, I will tell you the secret to content creation.
00:02:37
Speaker
We all say the same shit. We just all say it different ways. yeah Well, yeah, but do we? Yeah, we probably do. I mean, we record. We've gotten to the point, if it's not obvious at this point, we're kind of looking at once a month, once a month.
00:02:49
Speaker
ah We'd love to do, you know, once every three weeks or reacting more to the news. But
Reflecting on the Most Listened Episode
00:02:54
Speaker
um the good news is, I mean, there's been a lot of pinball that's that's happened. And so ah the fear is always you record an episode and then, you know, two days later, ah game's revealed or something like that.
00:03:04
Speaker
But um
Adventures at Stern Pinball Factory
00:03:05
Speaker
anyways, here we are. ah We'll just go ahead and start off with last episode. Last episode. um Yes, let's talk about last episode on this new episode. is exactly what you don't want us to do. I was going to save it.
00:03:16
Speaker
I was going to save it. Hey, you did. You saved it for the first four minutes. Good job, buddy. I mean, I can put... You know what? I'll put a pin in it. I'll put a pin in it. We'll come back to No, no, no. You've opened up Pandora's box. No, we'll come back to it. So, Tom, we did this episode at the Stern Pinball Factory, right? It was an amazing experience. Yeah.
00:03:34
Speaker
I mean... It was something. First, we're like, we're just going to interview Keith Elwin. And then all of a sudden, we're interviewing like most of the people at Stern. It was it was pretty awesome.
00:03:46
Speaker
We were just running through the hallways, just pulling anybody in is what it became. it was It was awesome. um I mean, the truth was we all knew we were going to the media event. So we're like, hey, bring the mics. We'll go ahead. We'll try to record when we're there.
00:03:59
Speaker
And um they set it up really cool this time where, um you know, there was like, a you know, factory demo or factory floor ah tour. And then there was Keith and the team like spoke about the game. And then they had set up time where each content group or content creator could have one-on-one with the game for like 15, 20 minutes.
00:04:17
Speaker
um And then there was just a big block of time open outside of that. And so we're like, hey, bring your stuff. We'll record an episode. And the goal was, let's just plan on recording a quick initial impression of King Kong.
00:04:27
Speaker
That was our thought. And um we've had Keith Elwin on before. it was It's one of Travis's favorite memories because of how horrific it went for Travis and his technology. um So we knew we wanted Keith on again.
00:04:40
Speaker
So, uh, Zach Sharp was there and and we're like, Hey, we're going to record. Do you have a place we can set up? And he's like, Hey, take the conference room. Like, that's awesome. You know? And so we set up in there once again, thing, it was just the three of us. And he's like, do you need anything? You need a water or any of that?
00:04:53
Speaker
It's like, well, we, we were planning on actually talking to Keith for a little bit. is And he's like, Oh, I'll go, I'll go get them. He's out on the floor. So Keith came in once again, we thought we'd talk for him for 15. We literally stopped the production line because we were interviewing Keith.
00:05:07
Speaker
ah Sorry. Halted everything. We hit the big red button and nothing moved. Yeah. Um, but that was a thought 15 minutes of Keith, maybe 30, 45 minutes of us talking, call it a day. And, long story short, we interviewed Keith.
00:05:20
Speaker
It went great. Then we I made a passing comment. Hey, Keith, is there anybody else we should talk to? He's like, you should talk to Chuck. We end up interviewing Chuck Ernst. He was awesome. 30 minutes of, once again, not trying to take too much of his time. 30 minutes of him.
00:05:34
Speaker
We finish up with him. Hey, Chuck, there anybody we should talk to? Hey, Jeremy Packard's trying to leave the building. So we stopped him from going home, talked to Zombie Eddie for 30 minutes. And then after that, I thought we were done.
00:05:44
Speaker
And no, Travis saw Gary Stern walking by. And somehow brought in Gary Stern with ah Matthew ah Greer. Is that it? Geier? Something close enough. Yeah.
00:05:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That was cool. That was a I don't know about you guys, but it's like with this, what this podcast is for the three of us to be sitting down in Stern across the table from Gary Stern.
00:06:10
Speaker
I didn't think that was gonna happen. I did not see that on my my bingo chart. I tell everybody, we are two idiots with mics and we got Tom. yes yes but we all So somehow just fell into that one. And then, so here at this point, we're two plus hours into interviews and it's like, well, anybody else? And I was like, George Gomez is always good to talk to. And Gomez was an hour.
00:06:31
Speaker
We talked to him and we could have talked to him more. So we ended up not doing our our initial impressions at all. We just had this amazing three hour plus conversation with that group. ah Super fortunate to just be in the right place the right time. Dwight was actually mad at you, Joel.
00:06:46
Speaker
Oh, for not bringing him No, you were holding up his game. Oh, that's right. He, yep, yeah. He had, ah there was a game afterwards. Like, a he did a, ah like, and not a board game, but it was kind of a ah game. ah Travis played it but yeah. I It was good. but I'm not going to reveal any secrets to that.
00:07:05
Speaker
Yeah, you had to be there. That's what it is. So it was awesome. It was an awesome experience. And then honestly, um we all we got a ton of of feedback on that episode, multiple messages, multiple everything. So thank you for everybody that that listened to that enjoyed that. If you haven't listened to it, go listen to it. I would be surprised because it's easily our most listened to episode um ever. And this is now we're on episode 64. So it was awesome. and
King Kong Pinball Machine Discussion
00:07:28
Speaker
And honestly, I'd love to I'd love to do it again.
00:07:30
Speaker
ah So maybe we'll have another mega episode like that again down the road. So Thanks, Ken. Okay. Now all right that we've kissed Stern's ass, now we're going to get to the bad. Now we start with the hot stuff, right? The hot topics. This is what, how many minutes are? Seven. Okay. now very yeah We've already, anyways.
00:07:47
Speaker
King Kong. King Kong, it's right here behind me. I have, ah this is Zach's LE that he's let me borrow. I streamed it the other night. Travis opened one at the pinball company. He's played a bunch of it. Tom had us one at Lumberjack lumberjack Johnny's, right?
00:08:00
Speaker
Or where is it that you have one? I i played it don't. I thought you played it. ah Isn't there King Kong you played? No, I explained this. explained this in our chat. How'd I miss this? Because you don't read.
00:08:14
Speaker
Well, you've played it. you've I it at Stern. And then I played it at Pinball at the Zoo. And that was the last time I played it. I swear I saw a picture of, it looked like you were on location and somebody was, oh, you were playing WIC.
00:08:30
Speaker
You were playing WIC. The whole audience right now is seeing the real Joel come out. We talked to him on these chats and he's just like, hey guys, look at the rims on my new golf cart. Like this is awesome.
00:08:43
Speaker
We're like, let's talk pinball, Joel. I think I said like one thing about a golf cart, like one time outside of this. There's selfie of him like driving with his sunglasses and his dog. Yeah, it must have made an impact, Travis. get those pictures every day. course they do. I actually said I was going to get an LE and I changed my mind.
00:09:06
Speaker
Yep. Where'd you end up going with Tom Graff? The pro. And why did you do that? we can start from there. Why did you go pro? Because I money. No. Because you like money.
00:09:17
Speaker
So you're going to resell the pro? It's going to like skyrocket in value? Let's flip it. Is that what you're saying? No, no. You know, i I really thought long and hard about it, like for about a week.
00:09:30
Speaker
And really, i was I was driving down to pinball at the zoo and i had we had just finished up at Stern. And was like, you know, i I think I like the pro better.
00:09:42
Speaker
And, uh, you know, after some long debates, playing it more at pinball at the zoo, uh, I just decided, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the pro. I think I'm just pretty happy with that.
00:09:56
Speaker
I bought the last, this will be my fourth pro in a row. So, but, uh, yeah. So who is this? Who is this person? I know. Joel is in shock. Yeah.
00:10:10
Speaker
Well, so I think, honestly, i i think it's a good purchase. And what I mean is, let's dive into it. um Godzilla. Godzilla, in my mind, in my mind, you got to go premium.
00:10:23
Speaker
You got to go premium because of how much the, there's so many changes to that game with the building, the diverter in that building, the Mechagodzilla. I think you got to go premium.
00:10:34
Speaker
Do you guys agree? Premium or no? Do you think I prefer the premium. I prefer the premium, but I could live with that. Yeah. As as somebody that sells the games, I want people to buy everything.
00:10:48
Speaker
But if somebody asked me, I'd be like, yeah, the premium to me is the more fun game. Yeah. yeah Jaws. Jaws. ah prem Premium. You got to go premium. Yeah. yeah I think you got to go premium. um Jurassic Park.
00:11:03
Speaker
Funny thing is, I had a pro for a while and I upgraded to the premium for Jurassic Park. so And it's not to say I might not do that for a con. Not that Joel's name.
00:11:17
Speaker
I mean, got this behind me. You got the But mean, I like the Pro, though. So I've also had an Iron Maiden LE, but I downgraded to an Iron Maiden Pro, which I have now.
00:11:30
Speaker
I had an Avengers LE, which was like my grail pin, but I played it so much and I have access to it at any time at work. So went ahead and let that go. And I could get an Avengers Pro. I was going to do that as well. But...
00:11:41
Speaker
you know, that game I think is just fine as well. So I think you could go either way. I mean, it's, it's like anything else, all these releases, you could justify getting a premium over a pro lot the times, then you could also go the other direction and justify why you can live with a pro and not have to worry about the premium and be perfectly happy with it.
00:12:01
Speaker
Sure. And I, okay. So just to be fair, yes, a, a Godzilla pro, a Jaws pro, is better than a lot of games on the market. But I do think what is in a Godzilla premium or a Jaws premium is a substantial difference, worthy enough that I think you kind of got to go premium ah when you own those games.
00:12:23
Speaker
If you disagree with us, write ah you know we're at a comment on the, you know, tell us why we're wrong. But... Um, you're right. I think Iron Maiden, a pro is great. I think personally, I think Jurassic Park, a pro is great.
00:12:35
Speaker
That's kind of the vibe I'm getting with King Kong. And it's nothing against what's here because I have the l LE here. Um, it's just, what's amazing in my opinion, what's absolutely amazing about King Kong is the shots, the shots in the layout and the fact that Keith designed it in a way that the pro the shots in the layout are identical.
00:12:57
Speaker
like if this is one of those, I just feel like if you're a pinball enthusiast, I think Kong pros are going to sell incredibly well because fine. Okay. You don't want to fork over the money for a premium, but like if you got the room, I could see this game fitting in everyone's collection.
00:13:13
Speaker
This game is incredible. The way that it shoots is insanely good. And if you want to save money, you're going to get that in. You're going to get that same experience with a pro.
00:13:25
Speaker
Um, Now, with that said, I like the gong. I really, really like the gong. And this is something the three of us have already been giving each other a hard time for.
00:13:35
Speaker
Travis hates it. He's scared of it. And because it fights back and it can lead to some nasty drains. Like that is something. I literally saw you drain on it.
00:13:46
Speaker
ah Yes. When I tried to backhand it. Yep. No, when you forehand that necessarily. Yeah. When he forehanded it too. Yeah. but yeah Joel, we see you drain all the time, buddy. I'm just, I'm numb to it.
00:13:58
Speaker
I blew it up at the end of the show. Here's my only issue with the gong. Okay. It's not that it's a bash, like that's fine. Right. It adds something to do.
00:14:10
Speaker
I just very much, I like the iron maiden skeleton of the rule set, right. Or the framework of that rule set that you got to hit various amounts of shots in order to light your modes, your scenes, whatever. So the fact that I see that on the pro for Kong,
00:14:26
Speaker
Like for me, it lends me to pay more attention to that rather than just hitting the same shot twice in order to get to a seat, which is what you're going to do on a premium and, uh, and the LE.
00:14:38
Speaker
But that being said, if I could get ah premium and be able to set it to where I start the modes, like I would on a pro or qualify them. then i to me, that would be perfectly fine.
00:14:51
Speaker
I would much rather do that personally. That's just my personal taste. So it's not the gong itself. It's just how the game reacts in terms of getting you or how the game gets you to qualify a seat.
00:15:04
Speaker
That's my issue. Yeah. i Okay. I would say the gong, it's not as chaotic as a pop bumper. And it's not as like brutal as like the...
00:15:15
Speaker
the one of the kickback shots, like the rocket shot, rocket raccoon on, on guardians or, um, what is it on 14? The, yeah you know what I'm saying, like the shot on the left. I know what you're saying. We're just going to see if you're going to actually get it out. now There's no way. It's called kicker.
00:15:32
Speaker
It's not as dangerous as that, but it is. Now that you've said it, you know, to qualify a mode on a premium or LE of King Kong, you' you're you're having to hit a dangerous thing. So it would be the equivalent on Godzilla as like to start a battle, you have to aim for the pop bumper and hit the pop bumper three times, you know?
00:15:50
Speaker
yeah So I understand the chaos, but I would say at least on mine, the way that mine's set up, So I felt you just if you're prepared for it mentally, it's like, OK, I'm going to I'm aiming at this shot. I'm not going to backhand it. I'm going to forehand it and then be prepared to react.
00:16:06
Speaker
But once you've qualified it, I did see that I could backhand it. I could backhand the gong. because it's not going to kick back at that point. It will actually just feed through. So it was safer than I was, than what I experienced at media day.
00:16:21
Speaker
Media day, it was pretty brutal. So um I don't know. I don't know if that's set up my particular physical mech or if they've changed something in the code to make it. I don't know. I don't know. But i I'm not scared of the gong. I think that's something that um i'vevan i you can you can learn to work with it. um So I don't look at it as a negative anymore. And I think that was something that Some people were, if they were between pro and premium, they're like, well, I don't want to, i don't want to deal with the gong kind of thing.
00:16:47
Speaker
But I mean, it it ultimately, again, just depends if you view it as a bash toy, right? I think it's very easy for the end consumer or for whoever's playing the game, not to view that mech as a classic bash toy, because it doesn't look like a classic bash toy, right? When you compare it to like the well walker on walking dead, that's very prominent. It's,
00:17:07
Speaker
It's out there on its own. When you see you know something like the gong, it's obviously an entrance yeah to something else. So it's it's very easy for people not to make that connection that it it acts as a bash toy, right? And then even when you hit it, because of the direction it's at, it's always guaranteed to come right back at you at the flippers. It's somehow, right? It's not going to...
00:17:28
Speaker
hit off there and ricochet over to the left side or ricochet over to the right or anything like that. So I think that's the main thing is just people wrapping their minds around that and their heads around that. And I don't think it's going to be a detriment at all. I think the mech is just fine as it is. I think the main thing is, is just making sure that it's used in a way that makes it fun for people. And I think they're, they do that well afterwards.
00:17:52
Speaker
Like when you start a scene, you got to go back through there to add on 15 seconds. Or if you're in a multi-ball, the ah King Kong multi-ball, you got to hit it twice to add a ball. So there's reasons to use it.
00:18:03
Speaker
And there's even like at the end of one of the modes, I think it's a save and it starts to hurry up there at the end too. So there's all kinds of ways that they could incorporate it in that it's fun in general. And I think that's what we'll see as the code continues to mature.
00:18:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a great mech. I'm enjoying that. And other mechs that are unique with the with the premium in LE, the Spider. Like the Spider, my son, that's what he saw. And he thinks that's coolest thing ever. I think it is cool. I think it is a cool thing.
00:18:31
Speaker
Does it really affect gameplay one way or the other? No. But it is a cool mech. And if I bought a pro, I would assume somebody's going to make a mod. And I can see everybody pro or premium one day ending up with some sort of spider over that magnet. I'm so grateful that the magnet is still included in the pro um because it is cool when it when it grabs the ball and holds on to it. um The pros absolutely loaded. If you look at it, if you look at it from the from the standpoint, the point of view of mechs and what mechs are.
00:19:01
Speaker
It's absolutely loaded. And we've talked about this before off podcast that I think a lot of times when people think of mechs, they think of it beyond drop targets or beyond magnets, beyond anything that interacts with the ball yeah that visually they're used to seeing on other games.
00:19:18
Speaker
I think people... ah Some people out there tend to think of a mech as having to be something that's so innovative that they've never seen before that does something to the ball that they've never seen.
00:19:29
Speaker
And that's where they draw the conclusion that, well, a game must not have that great of mechs if it doesn't have that. So I think though... As a pinball player, if you look at how King Kong is, especially on the pro, it's got a lot to it.
00:19:44
Speaker
I mean, it's got yeah four flippers. It's got two spinners. It's got drop targets. It's got stand-up targets behind there. It's got a button-controlled diverter.
00:19:55
Speaker
Yes, that aerter exactly. Let's the log diverter. Maybe maybe one thing and I think i I think a lot of people when they talk about mech back, it's they want a mech that's unique to that game.
00:20:06
Speaker
So that's why like pop bumpers don't get credit. Flippers don't get credit. Ramps typically don't get credit because it's like Well, there's ramps in every game, you know, um but they want a unique. What's the unique thing? And um just to finish up the ah the King Kong on on on premium in Ellie, the King Kong moves.
00:20:23
Speaker
He moves. My son thinks that's awesome. I will tell you when you're playing it, you don't really notice. You don't really notice because it is back there in the corner. But it is an amazing mech for everybody else to enjoy or watch while you're playing.
00:20:36
Speaker
And then it is a cool moment when he wrecks the train. But I also, to me, it's like i could I could understand why people would be willing to give that up for the pro. and And that's why I think the pro, you said it, Travis, is so loaded because the shots are all there.
00:20:51
Speaker
If the log diverter, let's talk about the log diverter. If the log diverter was not on the pro, that alone would be reason enough that I would tell people you got to go premium. And the fact that Keith was kind enough to not remove, you know, the biplane ramp, let's say that thing was out.
00:21:08
Speaker
Let's say the ramp in the back that feeds over to the upper flipper. If some ramp, if something like that would be removed from the game, I tell you right now, you got to go premium. But the fact that the pro has all of that in the game is incredible.
00:21:20
Speaker
The log diverter, the fact that you as a user can can control when you want that ball kind of, I'm saying upper play field, it's not an upper play field, but that upper left is such a unique pathway to feed that ramp or to shoot the drops.
00:21:37
Speaker
And the fact that you can control when you want to do that, It's brilliant. It's brilliant. And I and i think Elwin even made a comment that initially that flipper was just was just ah floating and they realized it wasn't being fed enough.
00:21:51
Speaker
And so it seems like that diverter was kind of a later design choice and it makes such an impact on the game. Well, yeah, and not only that, it gives you access to that far left ramp, which is the cliffs ramp. It gives you access to extra awards.
00:22:05
Speaker
It gives you access to control river awards how you want to, by letting the ball bypass the diverter and go down and feed your left flipper. It allows you to treat that upper area like a mini play field, right? And it's it's not a classic mini play field where you're just stuck there grinding out.
00:22:21
Speaker
You could be in and out pretty quick and you can choose to exit there by three different ways, either going up the ramp, letting it fall down back to the flippers or letting it go through the river.
00:22:32
Speaker
area So you could do those three thinking those three things. And then also, not just the diverter part, what I really love about that area that I think is brilliant is that the drop targets themselves, not only where they're at, the location of it, but the fact that this game up front has made drop targets matter.
00:22:50
Speaker
They matter yeah greatly because they lead to lighting your locks, qualifying your locks up the middle for the Kong multiball. They lead to you having a sweep combo that you could do. That's such a unique combination that I don't know about you two. I can't think I've tried to think of any other game that's had something like that to where you could sweep drops and lead all the way back around to an upper flipper to hit a side ramp with it.
00:23:12
Speaker
And I've, I've been digging and digging and digging, and I can't remember any game that, from a long time ago that's done that, any modern game? I don't know. If any listeners out there can remember, I don't know. right in, yeah. ah that That right there. And then on top of that, you have to, when you're in Kong Multiball, what else do you have to do with the drops?
00:23:32
Speaker
you guys remember? them. Hit them to do what? Isn't that how you... You can lock a ball again. Well, you use that to light your jackpots.
00:23:42
Speaker
Ah. So not only that, they leave you can also use them to qualify your Kong combo. So there's just so much that goes on with those drops that really make things matter. And I don't remember the last time that drops have really mattered this much since maybe Avengers Infinity Quest or Rush. Hmm.
00:24:01
Speaker
a you know Because in those games, the drops did really mean something if you wanted to go down that road. So I'm very curious to see how they really flesh out the drop targets even more on this game. um Yeah, yeah. um Tom, do you feel, difficulty-wise, I know you said you only played it. You only played it a few times at the media event, Pimbalta Zoo.
00:24:22
Speaker
Difficulty-wise, where do you feel that this game lands in the realm of an Elwynn design with just the layout? ah I think at first, maybe a little harder, but then as you get used to the shots, maybe slightly easier.
00:24:39
Speaker
i think i think there's just so much good flow in the game and everything that it ah I think all levels of players are going to enjoy it kind of thing.
00:24:55
Speaker
I, I personally think that's well put. I think, um, I think you step up into Godzilla and it's not, it's not rocket science on finding the shots. Like you can find them all.
00:25:07
Speaker
Uh, maybe the hardest shot being the scoop. Um, but a novice can walk up to Godzilla and go, Oh, okay. Uh, same with jaws because jaws, you know, is kind of open layout in that sense. I think you can walk up to jaws and understand pretty clearly like okay these are the shots these are how to hit it but yet there are shots on jaws that are challenging even for you know when you've had the game for a long time like there still are more challenging shots my initial impression of king kong at media day was it i thought it was kind of a harder layout because it wasn't so obvious what to do but now that i've had it in the house i'm
00:25:42
Speaker
once Once you know where the shots are, they're repeatable and they're consistent. I remember making a comment at Media Day that the back left orbit shot was a challenge. And Keith goes, really? That's actually one of the the widest shots on the game.
00:25:55
Speaker
Now that I've had it in the house. Yeah, it is. like you You can really find these shots. And once you find them, the way this layout's designed, you can combo so much. And so I was actually surprised when I streamed it the other night with my brother,
00:26:10
Speaker
our ball times were pretty high. And that's just because the layout, once you find the shots, it just flows so well. um So if the question is, is it easier than Godzilla?
00:26:23
Speaker
Travis, do you think it's easier than Godzilla? i would probably venture to say yes. If you, the way that you approach it because I mean, The game's not clunky. Like that's the reality of it. It's not clunky. I'm sure. I mean, we've heard reports, you know, ah of some areas like, you know, like the gong might be like that area might be rejecting or somebody's left ramp or something like that. I've heard that a couple of times, but by and large, everybody that we've sold the game to have all reported back that, yeah, the game's playing great. I know the one that I have, the specific copy I have,
00:26:57
Speaker
that sucker just flies. Like even if you hit the center spinner and you go down the river during the rapids, holy cow, like it feels like a hundred mile an hour fastball coming through there.
00:27:08
Speaker
But at the same time, and I mentioned this on a YouTube video that i have coming out ah here pretty soon, but somebody from Stern, I won't say their name, Just just for their sake. But they said so it was Gary's turn. No, they said something to me about Kong that was so profound to me that was just like, yes, that's the exact phrase that I've been thinking this whole time. I could never conceptualize it.
00:27:33
Speaker
And this makes so much sense. And they said that this game makes it to where you can stumble into greatness. Mm hmm. And after hearing about what you did, Joel, on the game.
00:27:45
Speaker
Dude, that's how I roll, man. I mean, pretty much the game makes you feel great when you play it. And that's the feeling I got when I first played it. That's why I gave it the raving review I had outside of the theme, outside of the art. Like those can be whatever opinions people have. But when I'm looking at it from a very specific gameplay standpoint,
00:28:05
Speaker
Do I feel good stepping up, hitting a shot? Do I feel good about the shots from left to right? Do I have fun exploring the play field? And this game checks all those boxes for me, unlike any game that I can think of in recent memory. Just, I mean, all games can be fun, right? We can we can play pinball.
00:28:24
Speaker
We've all done it before at TPF where we go find... One of the oldest, most beat up games on the whole entire floor. And the three of us just laugh our asses off playing. Sure. It's fun, right? Pinball iss fun.
00:28:34
Speaker
But then there's a time that you step up that you're just like when you play something and you start hitting the flippers, you start hitting shots. You just go, oh, ah yeah, this this is what pinball is. And that's that's the way I feel about Kong.
00:28:46
Speaker
Well, and I haven't felt that way in a long time about the layouts that have been around. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think you're saying it's bringing, it's brought meaning into your life again. That's what it was. That's the word. those a word yeah Yeah. Sorry, Monica. It took the King Kong layout to that. Yeah. Or them. Yeah. I have them too. Yeah.
00:29:04
Speaker
Yeah. He's never, he's just leaving the house. It's just, it's just, it's a fun game, right? It's just, yeah it's just straight out. It's just fun to play. And yeah,
00:29:15
Speaker
You know, when I, when I play pinball, I don't know about you guys. Okay. So there's kind of and we can kind of segue to the next talking point about this. When we talk about pinball themes, right? Okay.
00:29:26
Speaker
I played plenty plenty of games. I'm not going to call them out, but I played plenty that I'm like, yeah, this theme is great. And then I start playing it. And because the layout isn't very fun, it doesn't matter yeah how much theme immersion there is.
00:29:40
Speaker
I'm just not having fun because the shots just are not fun. You know, if I want to have theme immersion of something, I'll just watch a YouTube video with it cranked up to a hundred on the volume in a dark room and close my eyes.
00:29:53
Speaker
Right. So I want, I want something that's tactile. I want to feel it when I'm playing, right. It's, it's very like a haptic feedback. So something like that, you know, it's, that's the way I look at it. That's what I look for first. And if it happens to be a theme that I like, that I enjoy.
00:30:10
Speaker
that makes it just so much better. But I bought tons of games though, that I don't even care about the theme. I mean, I have a freaking EM right over there
Debating Pinball Themes and Gameplay
00:30:20
Speaker
with like two women just standing there next to a clown called jumping Jack, you know, like it's not a theme I enjoy, but the is the her busy on that.
00:30:31
Speaker
but Yeah. it just but like yeah My expression lights on King Kong are unplugged. I unplugged him for the stream. Uh, so they're not broken. So I'm going to plug these in, but keep telling me how, how fun pinball is. Well, I mean, okay. Like Tom, do you have any games in your game room where you're just like, this theme is just so freaking goofy that you just don't even care. It's just fun to play though. Yeah. Stars.
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah. Stars. Right. i mean, I'm looking at one and behind you. Paragon. Paragon. You know, that's pretty much like if you're a pinball fan, that's what it is. Yeah.
00:31:08
Speaker
I mean, you don't play classic games for the theme. I mean, at least. Yeah. Otherwise Hulk and Spider-Man would be selling like crazy, right? True. Yeah. True.
00:31:20
Speaker
I mean, yeah. Some of the art art art excuse me artwork might grab you, but, you know, play pinball to play pinball.
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah. I don't, like, i don't I don't get all the, like, there's been a lot of like, naysayers about the the artwork, and I and just don't see it.
00:31:46
Speaker
Yeah. Like, i i maybe maybe because, you know, what, like, 15, 20 years ago, we were getting, you know, Photoshop art.
00:31:57
Speaker
csa Yeah. Yeah. 24 and NASCAR. I mean, sure. I mean, there were, there were decent games, but I mean, this is way better artwork than a lot of the games out there. At least that's my opinion, but.
00:32:16
Speaker
No, you Tom, you're right. You're a hundred percent right. Because it always goes like this. And we talk about this all the time, guys. If anybody has an opinion over something, it's always, you always want to ask compared to what? Right.
00:32:27
Speaker
Right. What are we comparing it to? Are we comparing it to early 2000s turns? Are we comparing it to like even early 2010s? Like the ACDC and the Kiss Art.
00:32:38
Speaker
You know, some people like that type of stuff. Some people don't. Like ACDC had what? Angus's face like smack dab in the middle of the play field. So, yeah, it's just it's just all dependent compared to what?
00:32:50
Speaker
There's... um Okay. Yeah. And maybe this leads to, maybe this moves forward, but, um, in the conversation, but I mean, long story short, King Kong is incredible. King Kong is incredible. Um,
00:33:03
Speaker
It's easy. It's easy to be an armchair quarterback. It's easy to be, you know, it's everybody. Everybody's allowed their opinion. Everybody's a allowed their opinion. And we have them too. I mean, it's not. We absolutely do. I mean. And mine is no more valid than Tom's or Travis's. Like everybody's.
00:33:21
Speaker
Everybody's. You did kill Halloween. Let's be honest. It's true. Yep. Yep. And. And there's another pinball manufacturer that doesn't even exist anymore, thanks to Joel, and his lunchboxes. Holy shit. Just chopping them down.
00:33:36
Speaker
But what I just don't understand, and I'm kind of getting sick of in a way, is just like the constant um opinions of how a manufacturer should have done something, how they should have licensed it, how they should have included this, they should have done that. What a fail. What a miss.
00:33:54
Speaker
And okay that's your opinion. Like, I understand there are people that apparently would have preferred King Kong to be to have nothing but as assets from the original movie. They wanted ah old timey art, which I don't understand. I mean, night has anybody even seen a King Kong movie?
00:34:11
Speaker
I mean, what what what movies are we talking about? But do we remember what happened with mun the black and white one? Yeah. Which ah by all means, if we're, if you think we're idiots right now, leave a comment the YouTube video, email us at triple drain at gmail.com. But to me, it's like, because Stern went the way they did and made this essentially unlicensed.
00:34:35
Speaker
That gave Keith and his team complete freedom to do whatever they want with modes. And Keith's talked about that before, where it's like in Jaws, sure, they have four movies of assets. But theoretically, every mode that's in Jaws kind of needs to fit within a scene or a situation of of the movie.
00:34:54
Speaker
So it is restrictive in a way. And yeah, the assets are there, but somebody has to go and clip those assets and synchronize those assets and everything. While I think Keith told us and others that like, if they just are like, yeah, I'm going to do a, I'm going to do a, um, uh, this is what the mode's going to be. Then they can let the creative team, the art department actually make something cinematic for that experience.
00:35:17
Speaker
So there's pros and cons, but I'm just, to me, I'm like, if you are going to leave a scathing review on how terrible King Kong is, I really hope you've Without even flipping it, right?
00:35:29
Speaker
Yeah, I really hope you've played the game because I'm telling you, like, I don't think you'll care that the gong is on the right side of the play field.
00:35:39
Speaker
When the jungle scene's on the left, then why is the gong on the right? Because the right's supposed to be New York City. If you play the game, I don't think you will care where the gong is because it shoots so well.
00:35:52
Speaker
It shoots so well. It's an interesting critique. i've heard I've heard that from several people. And I think really what it boils down to is that... Anybody that has an opinion, I think it's perfectly valid. If you want to be negative, be negative. if you want to be positive, be positive. But yeah the key thing to understand is, is that everybody that's on Facebook, on YouTube, that work outside of the pinball industry, they're not in the pinball industry as somebody that works. So they don't have necessarily intimate knowledge about what, how this all works.
00:36:23
Speaker
right? Their knowledge only goes as far as whatever source that they have. So that's why a lot of times you'll hear like, the game's not selling well. Well, that's because your source, they're they're not selling it well. That's really what that means. It doesn't mean it's industry wide. yeah So when you look at this, everybody that has an opinion, we got to remember the opinions come from a place that has no budget restrictions.
00:36:46
Speaker
The opinions come from a place that has no license restrictions. The opinions come from a place where That doesn't have to basically oversee a full on manufacturing company and oversee a bunch of employees and make sure that they can go home to their families with a paycheck.
00:37:04
Speaker
They don't have to worry about distribution networks. They to worry about those relationships. So it's, it's very easy to create this reality in your head about what a game should and shouldn't be, which is perfectly fine.
00:37:16
Speaker
We all do that. When you look at something you critique, it's like, well, You watch a movie, you're like, well, that was a piece of shit. Why didn't they do it this way? i mean I mean, we all do it, but it's just, I think that's the key part to understand that if you are somebody that, that absorbs a lot of content, I'm a firm believer. We are always a summation of the main things that we bring into our inner circle and the five, like our friends and the things that we consume. So if all you're consuming is like, yeah, negative, negative, negative, it's going to be awfully hard.
00:37:47
Speaker
to really just see what's what's real what isn't real right and some some of the critiques are valid they really are i mean that's perfectly fine nothing's 100 some of the critiques are valid like i get it if you're confused why a gong is on the right side sure instead of the left when the river's over there okay cool fine if you're confused why there's new york in there okay cool fine you know i mean it it That just is what it is because it's just an opinion.
00:38:13
Speaker
But yeah and you know at the same time, I've seen plenty of other games that are like this. And it's just because it's a pinball machine. At the end of the day, you can only fit so much in there. That's just the reality of it. Yeah, it's it's not a...
00:38:26
Speaker
it's not a to scale accurate diorama of something like it's, it's gotta be a fun toy. You gotta play the max. And I think it's when I've listened to some critiques about scale or like the layout doesn't make, you know, the artwork, why is the artwork here, here, here.
00:38:42
Speaker
Um, Mando. Mando actually. And the reason Mandalorian popped in my head, I have i have um somebody who reached out to me that said they actually started, they've been listening to Triple Drain, but they went back and started at episode one.
00:38:55
Speaker
Oh, I'm sorry. And they've been listening through. ah First off, the audio quality was garbage. It was so bad. um But I, so I went back and I started listening to episode one. And episode one, the three of us, this was ah off the record, on the record is what we were calling ourselves.
00:39:11
Speaker
um because we weren't officially part of TPN yet. ah We were talking about Mando and the Mando reveal had happened. and But there wasn't a stream yet. So the three of us were talking about how we think the game's going to shoot.
00:39:23
Speaker
But one of the things that was discussed was like, think about the Mandalorian layout. The Razorcrest is small. Grogu is huge. You have an ice cavern in the back left. You have a Mando helmet that's moving up and right you know in the right.
00:39:39
Speaker
Like the layout of the way the artwork is laid out down down below. There's, you know, it's just images like There's nothing cohesive about that ah world under glass being consistent from front to back.
00:39:54
Speaker
Same thing with like X-Men. There's nothing cohesive about X-Men just looks like comic book panels all on the play field. So it's Joel. week Where do you even want to start or stop when it comes We've even alluded to that.
00:40:05
Speaker
You know, he, he wanted to do an empire state building with Kong on it. And he was like, it just, it doesn't work in the space. Yeah. You know, so do you want this like little miniature, like, like, Oh yeah. Mini Kong, you know, building with Kong on it or, you know, well, we can go as far back as like, um, walking dead, for instance, if we're really going to talk about assets in a game and where they're located and why they don't make sense.
00:40:35
Speaker
Walking dead legitimately has on the left orbit. That's the barn. Yeah. And right next to it, the left ramp, that's CDC. Yeah. Yeah. And but then the ramp opens up and the girl's head is the same size as a barn.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. Underneath the CDC ramp is Bicycle Girl. Last I checked, that was not by CDC. Last I checked, Herschel's barn was not next door to the CDC. Can you imagine people today losing their shit over there? Let's not even get into the sound or the call outs or the fact that there's nothing from the TV show in it.
00:41:09
Speaker
I know. it's Oh, man. Those are the things where it's like, OK, fine. and And that's that's my view at this point where it's just like if if if pinball pisses you off this much and you want to sit there and say how much Stern or whatever manufacturer did it wrong.
00:41:24
Speaker
then don't just don't buy the game. Don't buy the game. Wait for the next one. Wait for the next one. I think okay it's okay. I love those people. It's okay. Keep buying and keep complaining. Keep buying, keep complaining. You're a customer. Go ahead.
00:41:37
Speaker
Knock yourself out. like You can buy the whole factory and complain. like yeah That's the freedom of being in America, right? We can say whatever we want pretty much and just... you know, that that's the opinion. I think it's perfectly fine. It doesn't mean like us that we have to watch or anything. It doesn't mean it's correct either. Sure. Sure. No, we're not. We're not trying to, I'm not trying to come off as like,
00:42:00
Speaker
I don't know. Well, look at Godzilla, Joel. Look how positive we're being. but No, you're right, though. But let's look at Godzilla, right? At some point, you're off of Earth, right? Yeah. But yet there's still a freaking building.
00:42:13
Speaker
Like, why doesn't the building just completely disappear off the field? Disappear when you're doing Planet X? Yeah, how's there skyscraper on Planet X? My God. My God. Gomez has talked about that that that. What is it? Like, brilliance comes from restriction or like design. Like, if you are working in a sandbox, like, you have to work You have to have some sort of restriction or so or some sort of parameters to work in to push you.
00:42:37
Speaker
yeah Yes. So obviously, at the end of the day, it is a physical box of lights. And and to me, i don't know, i maybe I just to me, if if you look at Gong and all you see are the things you've done that have that were done wrong.
00:42:53
Speaker
If you're sorry, if you look at King Kong and and all you're thinking is all the things that did wrong, boy, are you missing an amazing machine because they did a whole lot right in that game. And if it's hard for you to see that, then that's unfortunate because you're missing out. You're missing out on an incredible, incredible game. I think really what it is, guys, is that there's just people out there They have it in their head, what pinball should be.
00:43:15
Speaker
They have it in their head that they have the answers, but it is not based in reality that can actually be done financially. That can actually be done with respect to the license that can actually be done with what's going on now.
00:43:28
Speaker
We got to think of things that are actually actionable, right? Okay. Going after the art in a certain style might be actionable. It might be. It depends what the license or wants. Well, they said that they said, remember, Jeremy Packard said, you can do anything you want with King Kong.
00:43:44
Speaker
but it can't look like the King Kong from the movies. It can't look like the King Kong from whatever. what Exactly. kong did he say or That's what he was saying. No, Deadpool. Remember Deadpool? Deadpool especially. Anything want with King Kong, but it can't look like the comics. It can't look like the unreleased video game. It can't look like the movies. Deadpool.
00:44:03
Speaker
It's like boom, boom, boom, boom. So... Here's your, here's your, I made your sandbox. Now play, you know, do whatever you want. Let's talk about Deadpool for instance. Right. I remember back in 2018 when it came out, everybody was complaining that it didn't have mechs to them. Like they were so mad. This is well like, we're not crossing new ground right now, fellas. Like this has been for the past decade. You could go back on chat GPT and ask it to scrape.
00:44:31
Speaker
like a lot of four. No, like, yeah. Like a lot of forms of message boards. I think I showed you guys the data I went through. It's the same exact freaking complaints in 2002. Yeah. yeah Like price.
00:44:43
Speaker
There's no max. It's not worth what it is. Yeah. Somebody was like, this is 3,500 for a new inbox. This is what a rip off. Like they're never going to survive doing that. Like it's too expensive. It's true.
00:44:53
Speaker
It's the same thing. And well, let's, you know, Let's steer this around. Sorry if we're coming off. We had one time that we ranted. I don't apologize for anything, Joel. I know you don't apologize, but there one time we ranted about something, remember what it was. And I remember there was a comment. It was a p-tray.
00:45:11
Speaker
Oh, no. It was probably... It might have been Avatar. I don't remember. read about something and... Was it Wick Sells? Somebody commented like, this is not what I want from this podcast. like they This podcast is normally very lighthearted we have a lot of fun.
00:45:25
Speaker
So um I hope you just... That's what's tough is is... I think people are missing... With this reveal, people are missing... the the greatness of this game. And if that means we're shills, I don't, like, I'm not, I mean, I don't make money for saying this game's good. This game this is good. Go play game.
00:45:41
Speaker
like So I think there's a difference. I think there's probably a lot of people out there that agree that the gameplay is good, but I think they're just pissed off over the theme and they're pissed off over the art. Yeah. Which got me too much right which means they enjoy pinball completely different.
00:45:57
Speaker
They're not a pinball player. They are, that's like an art collector and they're out there. Sure. Like believe me, we sell at least to people that they go into 10, $20 million dollars homes and they sit there and they get played maybe 30 times total. Like Joel will play the game more times on a Wednesday night than they will in a year.
00:46:15
Speaker
That's fine. And this is, this is the, actually the thing that I want to, I want to turn to, which is, um, okay, let's turn. We're returning Joel.
Comparing Classic and Modern Pinball
00:46:22
Speaker
I want to, when people talk, we've heard, no, this is online. This is um other content creators. that There are, you know, why can't games be like X? Why can't they be like they used to? They used to be so great. They used to blah, blah, blah, blah. bla um One game that gets referenced a lot is Lord of the Rings.
00:46:41
Speaker
Lord of the Rings pinball. There are a lot of people that feel like Lord of the Rings is like an epitome of what pinball was they it was loaded it had everything and so um i actually had an home use only lord of the rings that zach got in on trade and i streamed it the other week and i actually had a few weeks with lord of the rings and um i have opinions i have thoughts on it i have thoughts on on lord of the rings so i want to first just talk i know this is 20 years ago lord of the rings was made so i'm i'm curious your initial impressions of lord of the rings but then what i want to do is i want to compare lord the rings
00:47:14
Speaker
to what we got right now we got evil dead and we have king kong or we even we can compare it to godzilla but initial impressions right off the bat tom lord of the rings have you owned lord of the rings do you own lord of the rings what are your thoughts on lord of the ring yeah i used to own uh lord of the rings uh i think it's a great game i mean don't get me wrong um but Compared to today's games with the but the layout and the coding, i don't think it compares.
00:47:49
Speaker
I mean, ah it's a classic game, don't get me wrong, but like I don't think it holds up to games of today.
00:48:00
Speaker
Sure. um Okay. You know, it's ah like I said, it's a i don't want to piss anybody off because like I said, it's like do It's a great.
00:48:12
Speaker
Let the hate flow through It's a great game. And but like to me, it's just multi ball, multi ball, multi ball. Mm hmm. all the time and and there's not a lot of like other things going on you have like the gifts of the elves and that but and and some some modes on the ring but like i don't know depth wise it's just it's just not the same oh no i i think these those are all incredibly valid points uh travis your your thoughts on lord of the rings
00:48:50
Speaker
I don't like it. You don't like it. yeah I'm just not a fan of it. like I like the movies. I still just like it. ah Well, just the gameplay style, I don't really care for. The rules, I don't really care for. But the reality is, it's like, I mean, even it being a George Gomez design, it's just not something I've been drawn to.
00:49:09
Speaker
But you know what design I am drawn to by Gomez, that's old school, is NBA Fast Break. ah yeah I love that game. It plays super fast. Right. It lives up to its name. It's definitely like to me, everything on there is well implemented.
00:49:24
Speaker
So it's just kind of like I feel like when I look at Lord of the Rings, it what it does really good is just take whatever mech it has. And it's very thematic. Right. So we're talking about more like a thematic mech.
00:49:37
Speaker
with the Balrog that comes out. What is that? The upper play field. What that called? I can't think of the dead souls or something. Yeah. yeah Yeah. So that, and I think, isn't there like some type of return that looks like a sword or am I just thinking that's just shot on the right? We'll lock a ball. There's a, the moving tower in the back.
00:49:55
Speaker
There's a diverter on one of the shots to go to the path of the dead. Yeah. Another tower, the shire, the, Well, let's talk. Okay. So I mean, it's, it's fine. I just like, and obviously people enjoy it. It's not like my personal thing. If I see it in a game room, I wouldn't coin drop it. I would pick something else.
00:50:15
Speaker
That's just my personal, personal thing. So I think when some people talk about the epitome of what Pinball used to be, they talk about, they mention Lord the Rings and they typically mention Tales of the Arabian Night.
00:50:29
Speaker
they They mention like these games that are just loaded. oh they're so loaded. What a world under glass. um i've Don't get me wrong. I had a blast. I had a blast playing Lord the Rings. I think it's it's really fun. But when I actually really looked at the game,
00:50:42
Speaker
I'm like, what is in this game? There are like 15 little figures that are essentially glued all over the play field. ah Besides that, unique mechs. The unique mechs where you have a tower that that shakes in the back corner.
00:50:55
Speaker
um You have the ring magnet front and center, which is cool. um But obviously, that's you've seen that in Rush now. um The Balrog, which swings out.
00:51:07
Speaker
That creates a really cool moment, a really cool mode. But you mentioned something there, Travis. The thematic toys. These are not toys like the Balrog. You really don't interact with him.
00:51:19
Speaker
Unless you're playing the fellowship of the ring multiball or there's one other hurry up. That's the only time you interact with that toy. That's it. That's the only times you interact with that toy.
00:51:31
Speaker
But sides and then the back the back um tower. The only time you really see that really do anything is there's like one or two little moments. But besides that, the ring, the only time you interact with the ring is to start a mode. It holds the ball or the destroy the ring. Destroy the ring moment. Incredible.
00:51:47
Speaker
But the destroy, that's it. That's the only time you're really interacting with these toys. The path of the dead is just rollover switches. You're not, that doesn't move. It's not a physical thing. So I'm looking at this and I'm like, the mechs that in this game aren't,
00:52:00
Speaker
ungodly great like they're they're okay no offense george and hope there but i'm like ah but i in my head people were like just go the game the game then i have it i was like it's okay what i think the best the best my favorite thing in lord of the rings is the legolas ram That ramp is so smooth.
00:52:20
Speaker
that That is the most satisfying part of that game. Every single time, in my opinion, you hit that Legolas ramp and the way it comes back, o it feels so good. So I have to step in and point something out here because the obvious the obvious is happening right now. And Joel, this is what's...
00:52:36
Speaker
Okay, I'm going compliment you here. So whatever. Oh boy. I'm recording it. This is what has been fun doing a podcast with you for for the past several years is the fact that we've seen we seen the evolution of you as a pinball player.
00:52:51
Speaker
And what we got to remember is is that a lot of opinions that are out there on these games of the past, they're based on that these people that play them, more more times than not, they don't have like a wide array of of data to choose from right a lot of mental representations from games of all eras and that's not a disc that's just like a fact right it's a limited scope on games that have been played so therefore according to whatever limited scope that they have it's easy to draw back and say okay this is fun this is great again totally valid opinion totally valid but i think what we're seeing with you is you've played so many different games
00:53:30
Speaker
over the years on wednesday nights you get games that come in you've played all the modern games we've all gone to shows tom you know this because you own a bunch of games you played in a ton of tournaments we have all probably collectively played more games of pinball across more different eras than 99.9 of the entire earth population so we have a wide array to draw from But what I'm getting at is, is that you're saying one of the fun parts to Lord the Rings is how a ramp fills, how that shot fills.
00:54:00
Speaker
And so that's where it becomes, that's where the divergence comes. That when you start playing so much pinball, you start noticing shots. You start noticing noticing the differentiation of how a ball feeds back to you.
00:54:13
Speaker
The combos, you start seeing ramps as the toys, which Stern is very upfront. That's how they view it. That's why they have the Helix. That's why they have the different wild returns and everything.
00:54:23
Speaker
And even when you look at J-pop games, they did something similar, right? Tales of the Arabian Nights, you see the ball doing all kinds of wild stuff on there. So this isn't anything that's new necessarily. It's just kind of the way that people form their opinions based on the mental representation that they have of games. So Joel, with you playing so much, I guarantee you that's kind of where that's coming from. You have so much to draw from that now you're able to compare all these other modern pinball machines against Lord of the Rings. You're able to compare what's fun, what's not fun.
00:54:56
Speaker
And I think that's the key part that some people miss out on that. And that's why I highly recommend people to go to expos a lot and not just like, just talk to people nonstop, go play, play the weird games, play the games you haven't seen before, play the solid states, play the EMs, get a feel for that.
00:55:13
Speaker
What I was, I just think for that to be the bar, for people to be using lord of the Rings as the bar, what does Lord of the Rings do really well? The call outs, the music, the call, it's the fact that they have so many different call outs. Yep.
00:55:23
Speaker
They have all the characters' voices. That immersion is fantastic. I think, so the overall, the audio in that game is great. Sure. If we want to say visuals, the DMD, I really love the DMD animations, but if if Stern was to modernize Stern, if they were to bring it into today,
00:55:39
Speaker
Could you copy paste the game, but then add all the LCD? Sure. I bet if they could get movie assets, that would be pretty awesome. um But I found myself one, like once again, ah realizing how much I appreciate LED and inserts, because if you stack a mode and a multi ball in that,
00:55:57
Speaker
it doesn't it doesn't handle it well. Like you don't know which shots are for your mode or which shots are for the multiball because the the insert's either on or off. There's no color coordinated choreography. um The modes in Lord of the Ring, there's six, but they they feel very same-sy.
00:56:12
Speaker
Like they didn't really stand out. The one that stood out to me was War the Ince. And that's because I could then shoot straight at the tower to go up to the Path of the Dead. So I found myself just choosing that mode. When I would start the game, I'd just choose that mode to help get towards that multiball.
00:56:26
Speaker
My entire goal when I play that game is destroy the ring. And my main takeaway was like, if I want to go George Gomez to George Gomez, i I much prefer Monster Bash. I think Monster Bash has better mechs. I think the layouts are very similar.
00:56:42
Speaker
But i think when overall immersion and whatnot, like even the code, even though Monster Bash code is more shallow, Monster Bash is like, to me, I would i think that is a that's that game.
00:56:53
Speaker
you But what I wanted to compare was for so many people or to think like, why can't we, or to be looking in the past, like, ah you know, we're there're yeah they we cost cut so much now and the games don't have what they used to. It's like,
00:57:07
Speaker
Let's compare. Let's not even just talk about Stern. I think that's just human nature. Okay. I really do because you, like Travis was alluding to before you see that in movies and stuff like that. i just think
00:57:21
Speaker
not Not that people want something to complain about, but they're always they're always going to look at something that came before it and go, well, you know, I have a memory from this. And, you know, why can't it be like that?
00:57:41
Speaker
Yep. I mean... so It's kind of like if if those games were doing so great back then, how did like Star Wars Episode I come out? How did Revenge from Mars come out the way it was?
00:57:54
Speaker
Right? Like why was involved? didn't stick with it? Yeah, why was it being reinvented at the time? Well, true. It's just it's one it's one it's easy to look back years later you know, later and look back and say, well, yeah, those are great. Like maybe they stood the test of time and that's really all it is is a few of these games did, but let's face facts too. These games were not designed with the home user in mind, right? They were specifically designed to go into an arcade, give you one or two easy things to do to convince you to take three quarters or two quarters and put it in the coin mech.
00:58:29
Speaker
That's all it was. And to make you feel good about doing that and then try to make you do it again. That's really all it boils down to. So now what we're seeing is, is it's just like, you know, if if you want games to go back to being like that, I think you're going to be very surprised about what that would look like today.
00:58:46
Speaker
and I think people really would because that's you're talking about shallow code. You're talking about repeating the same exact thing over and over again. I mean, that's what, like Joel, we were talking about Medieval Madness other day, right? ye It could be a fun game. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy playing it like five, six times a year.
00:59:04
Speaker
But man, I would like, I would want to run into a wall if I played that a hundred times in my game room, like just the same thing over and over and over again, just because I just don't find it that interesting in terms of the layout and what happens compared to today, because now we're, you know, in the dynamic layout era with multiple flippers and multiple pathways. So it just, you know, it just depends like, but I could see why something like that,
00:59:32
Speaker
Because people remember that if they've been in pinball for a long time, they remember what it feels like back then to go to the arcade. And they're nostalgic about that. So I am very sensitive or I care a lot about what my friends and family or how they enjoy a game. And I was surprised when I had, I know you do But when I had Lord of the Rings, like it was, my wife thought it was cool when the Balrog came out.
00:59:55
Speaker
Like, that's what I told her. i I had to help her get to that multi-ball. And she's like, all right, that's cool. Or the first time she sees the the ring catch with the magnet. All right, that's cool. But once she had experienced it, you know, she played whatever, two, three games on it the entire time it was here.
01:00:10
Speaker
You know, like, check. You know, so I get it. It's ah it's a moneymaker. What if that operator would have got their dollar out of out of her and and that's it. But... but um Yeah, there's no draw there. While I'm very curious, I have a medieval madness remake on, on order. I'm planning on getting one and I'm super curious of how that's going to be received in the household. Is it going to be liked more or less than cactus Canyon? Cause cactus Canyon is still the most played game in my collection because that's what all my friends family are drawn to. It's, it's, it's, it's got exactly you're saying.
01:00:40
Speaker
Like easy to understand instant satisfaction type of thing. Um, But what I want to do is I want to compare, i want to compare Lord of the Rings. Unless you think it's better, we could do, let's almost stick with Lord of the Rings. Let's compare Lord of the Rings to Evil Dead.
01:00:55
Speaker
Evil Dead. We won't even pick on Stern. Evil Dead. Let's go, let's go category by category. Which game does it better? Right? Okay. So right off the bat, art. Which game does it better? Evil Dead or Lord of the Rings?
01:01:09
Speaker
Evil Dead. Evil Dead does better. ah So the art has improved in 20 years. Way to go, Chris, for Franchi. Well done. ah Sound design. Sound design. Evil Dead or Lord of the Rings. Ooh.
01:01:21
Speaker
I mean, it was White Star. yeah I mean, the okay, I would say the sound, if you're talking about sound design, it's probably better on Evil Dead. If you're talking about the actual callouts and everything.
01:01:38
Speaker
i Yeah, i dont know my walk have to go with close I'd probably have to go with Lord of the Rings. but Yeah, yeah i'm like I'm leaning heavily towards that, but I also am pulling a Joel and I'm very much fence-sitting right now.
01:01:52
Speaker
because i think No, I think a wash is a good, is is a solid answer because that's what I said was one of the best things. One of the best things with Lord of the Rings was how good the sound is. But I also think the sound package in Evil Dead is really well done.
01:02:06
Speaker
you rip the spinner and you hear a chainsaw. It's pretty. So you're talking about like the sound effects or what? It's kind of like band music, you know, the band pins always win the twippies, you know? So it's like, okay, you got this like epic motion picture and then you have the evil dead, which is kind of like a cult classic kind of, you know? So like you're, it's like comparing apples and oranges, I think, but.
01:02:31
Speaker
so Okay. Well, let's do this then. Mechs. Which game between Evil Dead and because Lord of the Rings is known for its world under glass. have to give Evil Dead.
01:02:43
Speaker
I agree. I think Evil Dead has better max. Well, there's just yeah there's just... Probably have to go to that. Yeah, I mean, you got stuff popping out under underneath the play field. You got a subway.
01:02:55
Speaker
ah you got the lock with the house. ah The hand. The hand. about The cellar door. The shotgun bullet things. Oh, yeah, the shotgun shells. Thank you.
01:03:09
Speaker
ah Yeah, I mean, they certainly put a lot into that game as far as mechs and toys. You know, Lord of the Rings, you got got the sword lock, you got the the magnet in the back, you got the Balrog.
01:03:25
Speaker
That's pretty much about it. I just i mean, you got the path of the dead, but... Well, do you think if we think of like games that have been are beloved with their mechs? So Medieval Madness, have the castle, ah Theater of Magic, um Tales of the Arabian Nights.
01:03:40
Speaker
Those. Is there another game I'm thinking of or missing? Monster Bash. Monster Bash. Sure. OK, Monster Bash. Do you think Evil Dead or Monster Bash? Which one has better mechs?
01:03:52
Speaker
Tough question. um I mean, i if you want to say better mechs, I think I prefer the Dracula, like, going back and forth than I do... Oh, out on the plate. I mean, yeah.
01:04:04
Speaker
Frank lifting up and, like, being a bash toy is kind of cool. But... I mean, but, like, again, it's... It's a product of its time.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah. um really But I mean, to me, Monster Bash shoots better though. Well, I was going to get to that. That's the difference. Yeah. I mean, the difference is, it's like, do you like Michael Bay or do you like Quentin Tarantino?
01:04:29
Speaker
Right? Do you just want to see a bunch of explosions? Because that's what happens when you put mechs on a play field. It'll cover up a lot in terms of geometry. It'll cover up a lot in terms of like how the shots actually are.
01:04:40
Speaker
And that goes for like, that's not just Evil Dead. That's anything. I mean mean, like who would be that director then? You know, I mean, that's what I mean. can't they work together? Has there been a game to where it just shoots like butter and it is absolutely loaded with mechs. Load it, load it. I think if you put 100 pinball players in a room, you're not going to get... Everybody would have a different answer, but I think that's like the Moby Dick that we are all in search for. think Godzilla Premium is your closest bet.
01:05:15
Speaker
And that's probably why it's typically number one. One or number one. And the only reason I say that because the Mechagodzilla Mac and the building are... Dead still number one on the inside? I don't know. I'm going to look right now. The reason I wanted to talk so much about Evil Dead, and Travis, you mentioned it earlier, is thematic mechs.
01:05:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's the difference. That is one thing I love about Evil Dead. Well, that's Godzilla's number one and Evil Dead's number two. Think about that. Godzilla has that too, right? You have a building that starts collapsing and then it changes the direction of your shot.
01:05:49
Speaker
Well, you know, then you have a rotating thing. Oh, it's, that's a shield yeah we all a shield for Mechagodzilla. Like it makes thematic sense.
01:06:00
Speaker
what i meant by thematic mechs is is this is something like i said with lord of the rings there are certain moments in lord of the rings where you are now really focused on a mech like the balrog bashing the balrog during that multi-ball that's one thing that i think evil dead does exceptionally well is there are there are different there are different times where all of a sudden that mech is the main thing that you're working at whether it's the hand There's certain mode for the hand. There's the cellar doors. It's not like like an avatar.
01:06:27
Speaker
ah you You go to that lower play field um that lower play field in Avatar with with um Jersey Jack, but yet the lower play field on Evil Dead, there's only two real modes that you use that lower play field.
01:06:41
Speaker
And that's why, and they make it a moment because of that. And that's, so I think that's something that Evil Dead does really well is they have unique mechs. They got a lot of unique mechs, but then they also highlight each mech at different points in the game and how that blends in with the code.
01:06:58
Speaker
And I think, I just think that's, they, they do that really well. Yeah. I mean, I think it just goes to show that there, there are certain themes that lend itself to being able to incorporate mechs associated with said theme a lot easier than others. right Right. Like for instance, let's look at Dune.
01:07:16
Speaker
oh yeah Like you got the sandworm. So that automatically, like, you know, you can kind of treat it like it's coming out of the play field because that's makes thematic sense. The way that they use the pop bumper as a thumper, that makes sense. Right. So there's like certain things that you could look at that you could do that. If you look at like the uncanny X-Men, right. As much as I absolutely hate that they break away the wire form, yeah the giant hand,
01:07:40
Speaker
It makes sense if you look at it as a bridge and the things, a city, right? That's just, you find ways to do something like that, but that's, you know, you can't do that with every theme though. Right. It's really, it's really impossible to do. I mean, like Cactus Canyon, for instance, they're having, they added in what the,
01:08:00
Speaker
the door saloon doors, yeah yeah the saloon doors afterwards, like that wasn't there before. And I think the best mech that they had on there before was what, like Bart's face that she just hit it and it just falls in front or like a train that just kind of goes across the top of the play field.
01:08:15
Speaker
Yeah. I, I mean the mech that I really like on cactus Canyon are the, the, um, just the pop-ups, the fact that those pop up and they're not popping up all the time. They make moments when those pop up, you know, you're talking about just like the drop, the drop, the quick draw, the quick draw events. I love that. But, um, I don't, my, I just really, maybe to wrap it up, but it's like, um, with, with Lord of the Rings, don't get me wrong. I had a great, I had a great time with it playing.
01:08:41
Speaker
Um, but it it was when it came to code, Tom had mentioned multi-ball, multi-ball, multi-ball to me, every time I stepped up about to that game, it was, i want to destroy the ring. To destroy the ring, you have to play all three multiples. You got to qualify them and play them. So yeah, I was i was really just pursuing the game to get me to that point so I'd have an opportunity to destroy the ring.
01:09:00
Speaker
In the two weeks I own it, I destroyed the ring three times. um I was proud of myself. That's fantastic, Joel. We're proud of you, Joel. That's excellent. step, though, was... Thank you, thank you, thank you.
01:09:10
Speaker
um Theoretically, though, I saw everything in that game except for I did not see there and back again. I was one shot away. One shot away from there again. Did you Valinor? And then if that's the thing, if you do the end back there back again, and there's a whole lot more I would have had to do to get to that final, final wizard. over You wouldn't have done it.
01:09:28
Speaker
Don't worry about it. Maybe if I own the game a few years, maybe, but maybe, maybe you're doing a glass off tutorial for three hours, you would have made it. You do it. But I understand to me, it's like when you put a game, when you put a a wizard mode in a game,
01:09:42
Speaker
that's going to be that hard to qualify i just don't even myself it's like i'm like it's just it's almost like it's not there i just that's not it's out of my skill it's out of the skill range of 99 of people that modern pinball now you can play it right at the start button now with all your stern pinball machines some questions well okay tom cue the tom talk let's do it tom wait let me uh let me here we go
01:10:10
Speaker
He's got something to say, Tom talks.
01:10:18
Speaker
to say, talks. guess got nothing. We have no video for that. So you're just going to see the three of us just grinning. Hey, shut up. It's Tom what you pointed at. Joel, your hour and a half's done.
01:10:29
Speaker
um no I just thinking about a couple things, actually.
Pinball Market Strategies and Challenges
01:10:35
Speaker
were talking about Evil Dead. Harry Potter's coming out. Do you think it was a mistake that Spooky limited the number of evil deads?
01:10:48
Speaker
And do you think that JJP is making a mistake by right now doing unlimited CEs, LEs of their Harry Potter that's coming out?
01:11:07
Speaker
No and no. No and no. I was going to so i was going to say yes to the first one. And then, actually, I think i'm I'm yes and yes. But then again, I'm an idiot and I'm not in sales and marketing. So Travis probably is right. But this is Tom Talks. So Tom, let's start with your opinion. Okay.
01:11:28
Speaker
Uh, I think, uh, as far as evil dead goes, I mean, obviously they, they sold out, they could have possibly sold some more. Um, so I would, I would say yes to that, but you know, it's one of those things. How do you know?
01:11:46
Speaker
um You know, and that's a hard part of ah not knowing what you have, I guess. But plus say they probably have other stuff coming down the pike, so they they don't want to limit themselves to just making one game.
01:12:02
Speaker
And then Harry Potter. Yeah, i think it's a little odd that they're having unlimited collector's editions because isn't the point of collector's editions to have some kind of number in mind to limit it.
01:12:24
Speaker
Scarcity? Scarcity, yes. Collectability? Collectability. Imagine. But those are my thoughts. I'm out of here, everybody. see yeah I love it, Tom Graff. Excellent.
01:12:36
Speaker
Tom, talk. He had something to say. Tom, talk. to I got nothing.
01:12:49
Speaker
Thank you. We're not worthy. Wow. We're going to play it again. You're not excited, Joel. Somehow hit the button of loop, so we're just going to keep it going. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Tom.
01:13:01
Speaker
I was just thinking about that. I mean, right i was also thinking, you know, as far as Harry Potter goes, we've been talking about King Kong so much.
01:13:13
Speaker
What a position JJP is in They know they have an awesome theme coming out. Yeah. And, you know, the the naysayers are going to really nitpick this game.
01:13:26
Speaker
I mean. Oh, yeah. You know, seven or eight movies. Everybody's going to want this in it, that in it. It's, it's, I, I kind of feel for JJP to be honest with you.
01:13:38
Speaker
I mean, know said it's loaded though, right? He's, he's come out and he told everybody to save their money at CTF. And he was talking about how it has everything. It's just like was, right? Didn't he mention that at TPR? He alluded to it. Everything and first impressions are everything. Yeah.
01:13:59
Speaker
I said, it's a no win situation. I think, I think JJP is going to come out. They're going to be just fine. They got a killer theme and they're going to have a ton sales. But are you going to make everyone happy? No. I hope it's awesome. i why Why, Joel, are you on the yes and no?
01:14:15
Speaker
Okay, so just... Or were you yes and yes? I think I was yes yes. The only reason I was saying yes and yes, but I understand. Do I think... I think Spooky could have sold more Evil Deads. I think the overall opinion of Evil Dead is only going up, and that's just because more and more people are having the ability to play it. And once you play it, I think there's a lot... I mean, we saw it at TPF.
01:14:35
Speaker
There were a lot of people that rolled in there you know, neutral or even maybe negative towards Evil Dead. And then they played it and they're like, wow, this game's good. So that's only going to continue. I think they could play more. With that said, I was talking to Bug at TPF and when they sold out, you could see the relief that just fell on him.
01:14:53
Speaker
And he goes, you know, what's awesome is for the next year, all I have to do is make games and go fishing. Like that's all that's literally like, like as a company, they set a goal for themselves.
01:15:05
Speaker
They achieved the goal. That is a win hugs all around. Let's, let's knock it out. Let's make these games and get excited for the next one. That's, that's good enough. Like that's what they want.
01:15:16
Speaker
So to leave money on the table, means they don't want to make Evil Deads for the next two years. They want to make they want to spend a year of their their time making this game because they're excited for the next one. Dude, are Barrels of Fun saying the same thing?
01:15:29
Speaker
They're okay with just, I want to spend a year of my life making this game we're excited for the next We to remember too, it's a lot easier to say, okay, since company sells out of a game like five months later into the announcement that, oh, they could have made more. It's like, no, I would have panicked if...
01:15:47
Speaker
If they would have sold out day one or day two, like a true sellout, then it'd be like, okay, maybe something needs to adjust. Like whether it's price or amount that goes out, whatever, most likely price in that instance.
01:15:59
Speaker
But, you know, by doing it the way that they did, now they give themselves a way to actually scale up. yeah Right. Like scale up the operation in order to actually charge more than what they charge to get past that.
01:16:11
Speaker
Because right now they're staying underneath that 10,000 mark. And of course, you know, knowing what raw materials cost and knowing what's coming and knowing the cost of manufacturing, it's going awfully hard to stay under that. Right. And people were already going up to 11, five on it anyways, if they got the butter cabinet.
01:16:27
Speaker
So people that got the butter cabinet were effectively paying a price that was what higher than even a Godzilla LE from 2021. So the price can get up there pretty good if you want it to.
01:16:39
Speaker
So I, you know, I would say that the amount of LEs that they had ended up being just perfect for their cadence and manufacturing the way that they're going about it and probably the next themes coming out as opposed to anything else. So I don't really see it as leaving money on there. I see it as a pathway that gives them an indication of how to treat the next few releases in terms of how they want to roll it out in terms of how they want the market to react to it. Yeah.
01:17:05
Speaker
Now with JJP, I don't see how you can have something like Harry Potter with a license that costs as much as it does. I don't know if it's public, so I'm not going to say a number, but,
01:17:17
Speaker
I don't see how you can limit that machine in any way. It's, you would have to sell it for 20, 25,000 if you limited it.
01:17:28
Speaker
Like, I just don't see, if people think $13,000 is a ton now, like my God, just to cover the cost of it, it would have to be astronomical on something like that. So so you're saying, you're saying for JJP two to recoup its investment,
01:17:47
Speaker
Their view is we're going to go unlimited because we need to sell. I don't know that. well we worse I don't know that for sure, but that's what I'm inferring. We're assuming the license costs a poop ton of money.
01:18:00
Speaker
So knowing what the license cost, I'm town telling you it. It's not cheap. I'll put it to you this way, right? like HomePen's not going to grab that license anytime soon. what i'm getting at what I'm getting at is, guys, is that you have to look at what a company is currently doing, right? Because whatever a company is currently doing, if you see what their actions are and you see what their strategies are, you better believe them.
01:18:24
Speaker
It gives an indication for what's going on. It gives clues for what's going on. And so when you see that JJP, they've always done a ton of CEs, right? Like a thousand or whatever. They've always done a ton of LEs, 5,000. It's always been blowing this out.
01:18:43
Speaker
But when you look and you see, there's always CEs like outside of what happened with GNR. Like GNR, when it got released, they did really well. But after that,
01:18:56
Speaker
there's always C's available. Like right now we were just talking the other day. Like you can still find an Elton John C right now. You can still find avatar C so they're all out there. I think it's just a matter of it's awfully hard to judge what the true demand of this is going to be.
01:19:13
Speaker
So if I'm a manufacturer and I say, okay, this product's unlimited, that means I'm not necessarily selling it direct to customer nonstop or you know in perpetuity. But it also means, hey, you as a dealer, you're not just going to be like just down to your allocation and having to like fight over, well, you only get five C's or you only get eight C's or whatever.
01:19:33
Speaker
It's like if you can somehow market it and you can go find 20 people that want to buy it, like GoHogWild. And you look at what happened when they announced Harry Potter officially.
01:19:44
Speaker
We saw Facebook and everything flooded, absolutely flooded with every dealer that sells those games. It was the same. It's just like content creation, right? Everybody's saying the same shit, just in different ways. That's exactly what happened. And it's, and what, I mean, what is cool in a way is being that it's on, you know, you can,
01:20:02
Speaker
You can go to whatever dealer you want at that point. like I think there are there are issues with Stern LEs where, you know hey, i want to use this dealer, but we know their LEs are already spoken already spoken for So then you're shopping around and you're going to end up with some somebody you don't know, but you finally found some dealer halfway across the US that you that happens to have one.
01:20:22
Speaker
So there's some good to it. But to me, I just don't. I just feel like on reveal day, there's going to be a lot of people that are like, oh, yeah, I'm in on the CE. But then if they like the art package of the l LE just as much, they're going be like, nah, I'm going to let me swap to the LE and.
01:20:36
Speaker
I mean, it's, it's, it's tough because if you're going unlimited, Joel, you're basically taking the secondary, you're taking that safety net out of buyers for your secondary market to actually lead to a perceived, like, even in value, right? Like you'll keep the value in a game. I don't see how, you know, if it's unlimited, it's going awfully hard, but you're also looking at the play that it is definitely a short-term play for like generating maximum revenue.
01:21:04
Speaker
Right. sure You know, and so you're wondering how that's going to go because you're doing that at the expense of doing something that's like based on dynamic pricing also that you're going to go high, high, high. You're going to keep cranking as much as you can. And that sucker's cranked all the way up as far as it can go. And now you're just like, okay, floodgates are open.
01:21:25
Speaker
right? I don't think we've ever anything like that. $15,000 and no, like no limit to it at all. It's just, it's just strange. And I mean, this whole reveal, I think we've talked about this before, you know, why doesn't Stern do, uh, their, their like, tell us what their next five reveals are going to be. And, and I think the answer to that is exactly what seeing with Harry Potter. Like the amount of people that, that are like, so I got to wait till it brought, I got to wait to see what that is. I'm i'm holding my money. I'm,
01:21:51
Speaker
You know, it's it's every conversation when you're talking about Dune, when you're talking about this, it's like, nope, no, I got wait. I got to wait. I got to wait. and and i And, you know, good on JJP for creating that type of um ah conversation where even though, you know, we're talking about King Kong, people are still thinking about Harry Potter because I got wait. It could be could be amazing. So.
01:22:10
Speaker
And I, so now I understand why somebody like Stern wouldn't want to do that to themselves. um Well, it definitely, yeah it definitely happened after guns and roses. When you look at, you know, how everything went up, right. Prices went up, the amount went up, but it's um It's an interesting dynamic because you're basically looking at shifting a product from being exclusive to more or less scaling it.
01:22:33
Speaker
True. Right? And so if you scale it, you're basically, you're risking, you're doing that at the expense of that title of exclusivity. And that's what's interesting. When you see all of Stern Pinball's press releases, it still calls these highly collectible items. Right?
01:22:50
Speaker
Right. So it's, I mean, it that, that part fascinates me just from a marketing point of view and just from a manufacturing and distribution point of view that you produce a product of so much and still try to keep that exclusive brand. And that's what we're debt like, if people think Stern's doing that with a thousand JJP is like, hold my beer. I'm going to freaking put some nitrous oxide in this and yeah really get going. So and it's going to be, we've talked about this too, the JJP. I mean, we've toured JJP, um,
01:23:18
Speaker
It's you've toured. j yeah. You toured. Did you notice the stab? it wasn't meant just It wasn't meant to be that way. tell Tell us, are they here? You can actually answer this.
01:23:32
Speaker
Yes. And do you think, let's say, because everybody's been saying, or say everybody, there's some people that saying like JGP will outsell Kong three to one, four to one, five to one, seven whatever. Seven to one.
01:23:43
Speaker
Whatever. the other We hear it all and people start parroting that. You've been to the manufacturing area. I have. Are they going to be capable of putting out 10,000 units?
01:23:57
Speaker
Like let's say they get four or 5,000 within the first three months, right? here Like, would they even be capable of getting those machines out within a year?
01:24:07
Speaker
No, I don't think, I don't, I don't, well, maybe the question is how many are they doing currently? Because that's how many they're going to be able to make in a year. Like that's. Right. Unless they've scaled, I mean, if they expect this to be a huge sale, um you know, thing for them, which I hope it is.
01:24:23
Speaker
But it's just. That's what I think is going happen. I think there's going to be like a massive push. Yeah. The first day, the first week. Right. And then it's going to tell off. Now it's not going to drop off completely. Like some things do.
01:24:34
Speaker
Like, I think it's going to be a long tail theme. But the problem is if you have a long tail theme, your manufacturing capabilities has to still sustain that. Yeah. So it's like, that's going to be a big question.
01:24:46
Speaker
Right. Is how, how does JJP and maybe they double their, maybe they realize like, Hey, sales were so good. We, you know, expanded the factory or whatever. Like maybe, maybe, but I know the factory that I saw, it looks great. It's just, it, it is like one fourth, the size of Stern, maybe even less. And so,
01:25:06
Speaker
and well they're If they're talking thousands of games, yeah it's gonna take a while. It's gonna take a while. Therein goes the point. That means you're go to have a group of people that put in an order, right?
01:25:17
Speaker
And if it gets backed up and they're at the back of the line, you're waiting several months for it. And on top of that, a lot of people are saying, well, Stern might be in trouble because Jersey Jack has Harry Potter compared to Kong, this and that.
01:25:30
Speaker
But like what do they think's gonna happen if Harry Potter introduces somebody to the pinball industry. They're going to want to buy another game. They're going want to buy another game. And who has the biggest catalog out there? That would be Stern. Oh, I thought it was American. That would be Stern.
01:25:47
Speaker
yeah So that would be Stern. yeah So they have the biggest manufacturing cat, like the current production. Yeah. And that's what people are going to see. So it's just kind of like, to me, Stern is in a win-win with this either way. If I'm at Stern, I'm cheerleading JJP to knock it out of the absolute park.
01:26:05
Speaker
Yeah, because it's not like like the all the pinball enthusiasts that are like, you know, is it JJP? Is Stern? Is it this and that they've already spoken? They've either bought their JJP games or they haven't.
01:26:15
Speaker
This isn't like anything new, like by seeing Harry Potter revealed. They're not all of a sudden going to like, OK, Avatar, Elton John dialed in like I got to go back and get all those games. So. I think really, it's just, that's what I'm most interested in is to see how much JJP puts into this launch.
01:26:33
Speaker
ye And if it's unlimited, you better believe they're going to try to get outside of the pinball enthusiast. They're going to try to go way beyond that. Way beyond the reach that currently is. Cause that's, I mean, hey how else do you, how else do you recoup it?
01:26:47
Speaker
Right. I hope they do. I hope they reach out to some big influencers outside of pinball or some celebrities or this or that. And I, I hope they, I hope this, I hope, uh, Harry Potter ends up being a huge, uh, catalyst for oh yeah pinball growth. Yeah. I hope so too. I really wanted to. me the Yes. All right.
01:27:07
Speaker
Another Tom talks. Let's do it. Hot tub, that's the, yes. You're saying hot tub time machine. yeah That's the thing. ah unfortunately looking at the time, I do need to wrap up, but, um, the good news is I think, I don't know. I don't know for sure. I do, but I, I would assume being that we've been recording every three weeks to every month, uh, Harry Potter will probably be announced but between now and next episode.
01:27:31
Speaker
Um, so we will, we'll have more answers. We'll have more, ah more thoughts and answers when we record that episode. But, um, we do know to wrap it up and, um, yeah, this was an interesting, interesting stuff, an interesting episode for sure.
01:27:45
Speaker
Um, and at the end of the day, um, I love this hobby. I know Travis and Tom loves this hobby. And, uh, You know, if if you don't, if you're not, if pinball's frustrating you, I'm sorry.
01:27:57
Speaker
I'm sorry because ah there's so much fun here and I wish i wish it wasn't so frustrating to you. um Go play some pinball. Go play game you like. If that game's from 20 years ago or three years ago, whatever, go enjoy the game.
01:28:11
Speaker
Things will be fine. Like I've heard a lot of people, I've heard a lot of people say like, King Kong has made it to where Stern's in trouble, this and that. Like Kong is legitimately our third best selling game since Godzilla, like in the past four or five years. And that's after like 10 cornerstones.
01:28:27
Speaker
Yeah. So like, yeah, like this is like looking at a YouTube video, right? We're not freaking out being like, oh, this is 10 and 10 shit. What do we do now? You know, it's doing, it's doing just fine. That's, that's the reality of pinball. Not all themes, not all games are going to come out and just be absolute grand slam for sales.
01:28:43
Speaker
Every single time you cannot break records. You cannot just go up in perpetuity. That's not the way reality works. And I know, um I mean, I read the YouTube comments on the Flippin' Out yeah channel. And then even on the stream, somebody made comments about like, oh, yeah, Kong's not selling well. You know, there's LEs in stock. And Zach was like, if there's l LE, if a dealer has an LE e that he wants to sell Zach, Zach's like, I'll buy him. I'll buy him.
01:29:07
Speaker
I'll buy him out. I got to look at the camera real quick. My God. Because we talk about it all the time. There we go.
01:29:15
Speaker
Stern is a B2B business. All right. yeah If you see a limited edition game in stock, Stern has already made their money on that game.
01:29:28
Speaker
Like dave are they've already sold through. I'm just, it blows my mind when people see inventory, when they see a product still in stock, that that means that the manufacturer's in trouble.
01:29:42
Speaker
Do we freaking go to Walmart and just look at like at the shelf and be like, holy shit, there's like a bunch of Tums right there. That business is in trouble. I can't believe this.
01:29:54
Speaker
Like what in the world? I just, say it's like people, people forget that Stern's not selling direct to consumer. Like 98% of their business is going to be like B2P.
01:30:07
Speaker
I just, i that's the part I don't understand guys. so i don't understand I don't understand it. Okay. I don't know. It's hard to, um, now that you like work in the industry and like actually look at marketing and sales stuff on a daily basis, it's it's really hard for me to discredit your opinions anymore because I think there is some validity to them.
01:30:24
Speaker
I have to hold back so much on this, but I will i will tell you straight up. yeah i like I have listened. Finally, I've went out, I've listened to YouTube channels. I've read message boards. I've been on Facebook. I've listened to everything.
01:30:38
Speaker
Like everybody's in fucking la la land. I don't, I don't under, like it doesn't match up with the reality. I see it doesn't match up with the data I see. And again, it's only going to be as good as whatever source you have and how good they're going about it. But again, we, we try to appeal to retail, not just pinball enthusiasts. We got to get outside of that. And that's how we're able to push sales. That's how we're able to introduce people to pinball. And you know We'll get into it next time because once Harry Potter comes out, then we'll be able to yeah jump into like why LE buyers do what they do because they're definitely segmented. like It's not just people that just want to flip games and make money. they're i mean I know it's shocking. There's a lot of people out there just want to buy a game that's top tier, that's new in box because it's cool and they don't care about the money.
01:31:20
Speaker
That's valid. One thing I think you did forget to mention this episode was when I streamed King Kong the other night, I battled the T-Rex, which is currently the... No, he's about to... That's the thing that's furthest in the game right now. If you want to go see somebody play a mini wizard mode in the most...
01:31:41
Speaker
and i think non-mini wizard way possible was excited to be there i was living in the moment i didn't asked jared i said tell me what's on the screen he he read one thing i didn't know what i was doing i was excited to be there i spelled king
King Kong Gameplay Achievements
01:31:53
Speaker
kong i got i essentially reached the point of the code where the as far as they've code the words you're looking for travis is i'm proud of you i don't think you've said those when i watch you play i want wizard um Tom, I watched him play without the sound on and I thought he was in some hurry up mode because he was just fucking chimp flipping like crazy.
01:32:15
Speaker
He was flipping the left flipper when the ball's on the right hand side. I'm like, why the hell is he doing that for? I thoroughly enjoy watching Joel and Jared and I think everybody should.
01:32:26
Speaker
Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Tom. But it was impressive that you got there. And that should tell everybody, if Joel can do it, ah everybody can enjoy that game. yeah That game's great, man. There we go. Okay, let's plug it up.
01:32:37
Speaker
Let's do our plugs. Tom, plug away. You can find me, of course, here on Triple Drain. i also do this other little thing called Fox Cities Pinball. We're going to be streaming the big tournament Yegpin next oh yeah Next week, I will be out of the country for that. So ah tune in for that.
01:32:58
Speaker
Awesome. Well done, Todd.
Final Thoughts and Social Sharing
01:33:00
Speaker
I will also be out of the country next week. So, Travis, you're going to have to hold down the the entire country for a Triple Drain. Cool. I'm on it. Travis, plug away, man. Yeah, I'm Travis. I'm on... I stumbled over my words. Sorry. I'll edit that out for you. No, Leave it in there. I'm on Triple Drain. I nearly said I was on something else, not Triple Drain. I was going to mix up my work with Triple Drain. I was about to say I'm with the pinball drain.
01:33:25
Speaker
was about to say that. I'm with the pinball drain, yes. Nevermind. Triple Drain Pinball Company, you know where to find me. Yes. You lovely people. Thank you for listening and watching. Absolutely. And yeah, and I am Jolt. So you can find me here on Triple Drain as well as the Flippin' Out Pinball stream every Wednesday night. Not this Wednesday, but every Wednesday night with my brother. We're having a great time with that. So check out if you want to see gameplay tutorials, all that stuff. Check out Flippin' Out YouTube channel as well as actually Tom has gameplay and tutorials on Fox City's YouTube and Travis has gameplay and tutorials on
01:33:58
Speaker
ah the pinball companies. There's plenty of media out there. Mine are more depressing. No, that was the dumbest comment ever.
01:34:09
Speaker
Oh, man. Well, hey, um yes, there's plenty of content out there. Thanks to everybody that listens. Check out our stuff on Silver Ball Swag. We had somebody in Milan, Milano, Italy, order a shirt. So shout out to that person. Thank you for whoever ordered that last month in Italy. So yeah, it'll go out.
01:34:27
Speaker
All right. Like always, Tom, you get the last words. Later, everybody.