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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 70 - Elwin is back and he is dropping truth bombs!
976 Plays3 days ago
Hosts: Joel Engelberth, Tom Graf and Travis Murie
Guest: Keith Elwin
We like talking pinball and pinball design so who better to invite onto the show than Keith Elwin himself. We went into this episode with no agenda and just wanted to talk game theory with one of the greats. We chatted about physical design, rules and mode design as well as the perceived value in a pinball machine today. I know I loved the conversation and we hope you guys do too. How we have made it to 70 episodes I don’t really know but thanks for all the support!!
Thanks again for all the support everyone:)
BIG NEWS! We now have our own Youtube channel and Podcast Show. Please make sure to follow the links and Subscribe/Follow them so you won’t miss any future Episodes!
YOUTUBE - https://www.youtube.com/@tripledrain
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Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/triple_drain
Travis' stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@ThePinballCompany
Tom's stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@Foxcitiespinball
Joel's stuff: https://www.youtube.com/@FlipNOutPinball
Shoutout to Jackson Gee and his incredible artwork. jacksongee.com
Shoutout to Brad Johanson and his company Alter Creative Media for his intro video. Altercreativemedia.com
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Transcript
Introductions and Technical Challenges
00:00:10
Speaker
We're Joel and Travis down the top and all. And we call on ourselves. Triple training. Triple training. Triple training. We're triple.
00:00:21
Speaker
Triple training. All right.
Introducing the Guest with Humor
00:00:24
Speaker
We are back. We're back, hopefully, with no problems. No problems. We had ah some technical difficulties before we started. ah We'll know if we got through them based on whether or not this episode gets out. So we will see. This might just be an enjoyable conversation between the four of us. And, yes, there's four of us. We have a guest. We have a guest. Probably,
Light-hearted Conversations and Misconceptions
00:00:42
Speaker
you know, I would say easily one of my top three guests on this episode.
00:00:46
Speaker
on this podcast, Tom, who do you rank above? Yeah. Who do you rank above Ellen? we were going through this earlier. Who are you? I'm not, I'm not kidding. what only Jared never comes on.
00:00:58
Speaker
Oh, my brother. Wow. Yeah. Jared, my brother has decided, i don't know. I think he's just decided to, uh, give you grief keith and i'm all for it you know i think uh it's it's a it's a good time but yeah i think jared was joking about making a shirt that said elwin's overrated and if he ever does if he ever does i'll make sure i get you one oh and you can wear probably uh keith elwin's on so um no need to you know do our normal thing where we apologize at how bad we are podcasting we're just gonna dive right into the conversation about why um
00:01:32
Speaker
Why Travis sucks. I mean, that's, that's basically what our, that's what our Facebook group has been titled for months and months and months. And I think we should probably just get that out of the way. Yeah. You should admit that publicly. Cause everybody thinks I'm the jerk towards you all the time. So yeah, there
Diverse Backgrounds and Interests
00:01:46
Speaker
you go. Now you guys know the real Joel. Now you know Monica to balance him out. So he can suck all he wants cause she's awesome. So Monica is awesome. that's fair And you know, Keith and Tom have the ability to change the name of the Facebook group at any moment.
00:01:59
Speaker
And they haven't. So... That's true, right? Everybody thinks I'm Travis. They keep coming up to me and, like, yelling at me. Yeah. Well, we ah we wanted to have Keith on. And maybe it's just because the three of us, what we enjoy about this episode, what we enjoy about this podcast is we're just hanging out. and We're just talking. And the three of us, mainly, you know, Tom, Travis, and myself, we have very different backgrounds. And we have, you know, currently we're in very different places within the hobby. You know, Tom is tom and Travis are very tournament heavy. i am all stream. We all stream. Travis now works within the industry, so has a unique view from a business standpoint.
00:02:33
Speaker
Tom has bought
Humor and Content Structure
00:02:34
Speaker
a lot of games over a lot of years while I'm cycling through a lot of modern games, being able to borrow them and stream them and whatnot. So it's a fun dynamic and we enjoy talking about it. But...
00:02:45
Speaker
What I will say is we do have some opinions. And I'm curious, Keith, because I know you listen to this episode or this show. what's What's a strong take that one of us have had that you've heard that you immediately laughed at and thought, that guy's an idiot?
00:02:59
Speaker
Do you have anything that comes to mind? Just one. just i usually listen to the first half and then you guys start rambling to the last hour and then... Okay, so we'll keep this to an hour-long episode. Perfect. Well, it just means we load all of our good shit early on. know, to hook everybody. That's all that means. Yeah. We've got to listen to Travis talking about his house balls and everything
Game Design Insights and Challenges
00:03:19
Speaker
else.
00:03:21
Speaker
well ok Well, I mean, i'm I'm happy to let you steer the bus, Keith, but um maybe maybe i'll maybe I'll give you a layup here. Can you defend the gong on King king Kong? Because I like the gong, and you've it's been very clear that Travis and Tom are scared of the gong. So as the designer of the gong, I would love to hear your thoughts on it.
00:03:40
Speaker
Do you like that you have it in the game? Do you do you think they're wusses? What are your thoughts on the King Kong gong? The gong is supposed to scare you guys. It's supposed to.
00:03:52
Speaker
That's why ah Tom bought a Pro, so. True. Yeah. So, yeah. So, see, Joel, we're experiencing it as it should be. It sounds like you're the problem, Joel, not Tom and I. No, you got scared and ran away and bought the Pro. That's what I'm saying. Did you what happened to me at the Stern factory?
00:04:11
Speaker
um ah Keith was just laughing at me. I couldn't handle the ricochets coming back. It wasn't like it was draining down the middle. I just like kept flubbing it. yeah you know we did We needed something to put the ball in danger. so Mission accomplished. Mission accomplished, exactly. but you need to hit it.
00:04:29
Speaker
At Free Play Florida, they knew new Z-Mac was coming, so they they took the gate out. They they made everything harder to do. that That game was a nightmare to play.
00:04:40
Speaker
Oh, the in-line gate? Yeah. Yeah, what's the opinion of that change? Because Kerry Wing did that for us, too, at one of our big tournaments here. It didn't seem as bad Slap C, but i I think it was because you had the mode start, like, easier, I believe. Yeah, one shot easier.
00:05:00
Speaker
So, I don't know. it just It just seemed way more difficult at Freeplay Florida for whatever reason. Yeah, taking that gate out would be dangerous. You're talking about the gate on the kind of the in lane area.
00:05:12
Speaker
the Yeah. ye So with that, the gate is supposed to keep the ball from going backwards, like up the in lane and then out. Yeah. Okay. So one, one wrong shats or an attempt of a shats, you just drained. Yeah. I mean, if you try to like drop catch it, you're. Yeah.
Game Complexity and Player Expectations
00:05:28
Speaker
or there was even a chance that if you hit the center ramp, just perfect.
00:05:32
Speaker
you If it had any type of rattle at all at there, it would just go out the out lane. That was a lot of fun. But it didn't happen all the time. It was like least one other. I can't. Get off that podcast. Well, let's talk about that for a little bit. So kong Kong has a very interesting in-lane, out-lane situation. You threw a gate in there. Jaws, the game before that, you threw a gate down there below.
00:05:55
Speaker
um Are you just bored of normal in-lanes? Or what's what's the idea of you know kind of adding some unique? Yeah, you're just bored. Perfect. Yeah, my next game is even weirder, trust me.
00:06:06
Speaker
Oh, okay. Okay. Well, what's, I don't know. I mean, what could we possibly be weirder than that? Then gone then more I'm trying to think then out lanes of that. long in the outlinene yes oh gong no go kinging kong i I mean, there was a lot of people we had heard before King Kong was released. People are, some people on the inside were like, honestly, this is probably Owen's greatest layout. Like it's, ah it's, and it's when it showed
Game Modes and Player Interaction
00:06:30
Speaker
up, it really, this was once again, one of those situations where I saw pictures and I'm like, I do not understand some of these ball paths. And it's not because you have mechs hiding them, you know, it's just how does this how does this work? And
00:06:46
Speaker
i don't How do you go how do you do that, Keith? How do you design a game with the same parameters of every other designer right now, you know with the with the size limitations of ah of ah of a play field?
00:06:57
Speaker
But yet, I mean, do you start with basic ball paths and then you decide, let me squeeze this crazy one? like i don't I don't know. What's your... No, it's best to start with the crazy ones and then work the other ones around it. Okay, so on King Kong, which where'd you start? Which path?
00:07:12
Speaker
It was the the punchback, the the the top right side. And then the next was the upper left flipper area. I envisioned having a ramp way back there that you can shoot.
00:07:23
Speaker
and And then, of course, of the two other ramps, the biped ramp and the center ramp. Also, i designed all that. And then Harrison, what that means, you're crazy. You've got three ramps all jammed together there. And so we managed to make it work. But...
00:07:39
Speaker
Since that whole, the whole punchback shot that pretty much eliminated having a ramp on the entire right side. So
Challenges in Game Design
00:07:46
Speaker
all the ramps had to get jammed to that one side. and So i had to get a little creative with the ball paths. And most of it, I got correct the first first try, you know just minor tweaks here or there.
00:07:57
Speaker
So, and then the biplane ramp, I mean, that you have, that's, that's a crazy ramp with the, with the way the wire form feeds back, but the, but the shot under the biplane ramp, that's the shot that I just don't,
00:08:10
Speaker
I just feel like so many other designers just would have maybe put a stand-up target there you know and just called it a day. But I just don't know how you, one, had confidence you could even do that shot and then also found a way to work because you designed this and in SOLIDWORKS, right? So this is a virtual environment. like how do you How much time does it take tweaking that physically to then feel confident? Yes, that is a repeatable shot.
00:08:32
Speaker
That shot actually, that was the toughest shot to design actually because just where it's located in the space I had to work with, uh i knew it was gonna be a really hard shot so i wanted to feel somewhat good and i think it does most of the time it could still you know if you shoot it too soon still rattle a little bit but yeah i just wanted something a way to feed the upper left flipper from the upper right flipper and so um i just think well maybe i just kind of do like a small u-turn and kind of throw the ball out towards the the side there and feed it and
00:09:07
Speaker
Uh, it didn't work very well. The first couple iterations, it was either feeding into the little micro sling above the upper lip flipper or was just rejecting altogether. So we came up with that, I think a happy medium, cause there was no perfect way to get it perfectly smooth and feed the upper lip flip every time. But I think it's, it's, it's as good as it's going to get. Oh, I, ah it's very repeatable. And I mean, do you.
00:09:31
Speaker
Have you had a shot in a game? Because you said it wasn't very good initially, but you kept working at it. I mean, have you had a shot and in a game, in ah in a previous game that you like gave up on? Where it's like, i this this shot, okay, it's not going to work. it's just Yeah, so Jaws, actually originally, um the left orbit went all the way around to the right side.
00:09:53
Speaker
To the right orbit. And it was just so clunky because we had the reel there. So I kind of had to wrap behind the reel and just kind of dump out into the right orbit. And when I did that, it was just, is it was just a rattle fest and I hated it. So then I was just like, maybe I'll just have a U-turn onto itself. And we tried that and everyone's like, oh, that's great. Perfect.
00:10:14
Speaker
So if you actually, if you look at the pro, you'll see all kinds of space in the back of the game because originally there was an orbit back there. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, no, that that actually makes total sense because that was another game I remember when that came out. I'm like, I do not – I mean, you had the upper play field, but I'm like, I do not know what's going on in this upper left section. It just doesn't – but yet it's not not like you're doing trickery with subways or this or this or this. It's just like, no, the ball's staying on the play field the whole time. It's just going in a path that's – It's much easier to see on the pro, obviously. Yeah. and On the l LE, it's kind of like, where's the ball going? you know Okay.
00:10:51
Speaker
Keep you your toes a bit. Let's do this. Let's go around the corner, let's around the circle here, and ah and we'll each say what our what our least favorite Elwyn shot is. I'll start. It's the O-Shot in Jurassic Park. Is this the roast of Elwyn? Is that what he's walked into? This is just to get honest, because i'm'm I'm curious to this. So mine, what is my least favorite shot? I will say, for me, it was the O-Shot in Jurassic Park.
00:11:15
Speaker
I say that with a grain of salt, though, because it is it's it's so frustrating. But, man, when you hit it, it feels good. I mean, was that... Be honest, Keith. The O shot in Jurassic Park, if you could have made that wider, would you? Or what was the what was your thought there? no That was exactly what you wanted.
00:11:31
Speaker
The problem is because spelling chaos would be super easy if that was good shot. So I wanted one hard shot. ah you know yeah already had the super hard you know smart missile shot.
00:11:43
Speaker
yeah So i was like, okay, here's the really hard shot in the game. And then then I just wanted a way to make chaos harder. So actually, you know, I could either make the, ah you know, Pteranodon ramp tighter, which i didn't want to do because i thought it was really cool, or this shot that basically just feeds the pops. I'll make this the hard shot. now You're not to have to shoot it very often. There's really no key shots on it other than the O, or if you're catching a dinosaur maybe. But, you know, it was it was just – I wanted it tough just so I can have chaos – the cadence of chaos spell out just the way I wanted. Okay.
00:12:20
Speaker
Um, that's fair. Uh, my, I will speak for my brother on my brother's behalf. His, one of his least favorite shots is the scoop on Godzilla. He finds it so frustrating. And I know we on this podcast have talked about when you, when you limit starting of modes or starting of things behind a tough scoop shot, how frustrating that can be.
00:12:40
Speaker
But I know in Godzilla, that area was designed and messed around with a bunch. So i don't know, thoughts on the scoop shot on Godzilla. Yeah, I agree. It's not the most fun shot.
00:12:50
Speaker
But i needed you know I needed a scoop somewhere to introduce the modes and everything. So yeah, because you know me, I don't like scoops. Hardly any of my games have them. And it's like, well, maybe yeah maybe people forgive me because you know sometimes I need one. yeah yeah So ah that's how that came about. and Yeah, you know it's not as bad as Guardians. It's not way in the corner there, but it is yeah yeah it is off where you're used to shooting the scoop.
00:13:17
Speaker
And then you you you put a pop bumper right next to it. So when you when you miss, you missed things get scary. um Tom, what do you hate about Keith Elwin Design? Go ahead just let you get it out there. Well, since Jared stole mine and then you stole my other one, i don't know.
00:13:33
Speaker
Okay, Travis. should Should we ask, do you have any other people you want to think of before Travis? Keith's designed a lot of pinball, all right? I didn't think i think i didn't think we were narrowed down to two. i would Oh, gosh. Let me think.
00:13:48
Speaker
maybe Maybe the hat shot on James Bond's 60th. The real? Yeah, yeah, where you just, like, spin the hat around. It's always in the freaking way when I want to hit a drop target. That's so funny. Yeah, otherwise you just hit drop targets all day. Right, yeah.
00:14:05
Speaker
The game's too hard for me. I spent too much time on that game. Give me a break. I'm surprised it shoots as well as it does because it really, it was like a one shot. One shot to get right.
00:14:17
Speaker
what about would Would there be any chance that you would use some of those features in Bond 60th in another game? Features like what? Well, like like well like ah some ah sorry some of the shots, like ah like the the loop around or or like the inline drops. He did. he He used one in X-Men. Remember? There's that shot right there. I forgot. so oh yeah I was actually screwing around with the Whitewood Night game, and I put a ramp there. Not quite like Jack did it.
00:14:47
Speaker
but it kind of came up and fed the upper left flipper. It's like, Oh, this actually works. But then it's like, Nope, no ramps in this game. So we'll just stick to it. Keith. I mean, people have talked about, you know, with the home pin series, you know, it's the same layout over and over and over again. um or has been reused in some of those. So I, you know, there were people saying, man, I wish, I wish you could just literally take the bond 60th layout and paste it on a different theme or something, because that layout's incredible, but because of the cost of the game and the limit, you know, how, how they're limited, it's kind of like, man, it would be awesome to reuse this layout elsewhere.
00:15:22
Speaker
Um, I think that's kind of what people are hoping would happen, but, um, as a bond 60th owner, Tom, I, I don't think you want that to happen. I, maybe you're, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm speaking for you, but um I don't know. thought i That layout's amazing. I just want to know, Joel, why do you hate the O shot?
00:15:40
Speaker
That's like legitimately the O shot on Jurassic Park is my favorite shot on any Keith Allen game. But I'm scared of the gong. Well, yeah. looks Here's why I like the O shot. Because one, it feels good when you hit it. You know you're closer to multiball. But then the ball can come all the way around. You can do like a little flutter catch with the upper flipper and send it back through the tower or the loop as well. So it allows for a lot of different combinations. Maybe I just defaulted to what, you know. Tighter shots. Yeah, it's ah it's yes okay. In a perfect world, I'd love to i'd i'd love to be as good as a pinball player as the three of you. I would love that. You can hit the shot. When put challenging stuff on a play field, it it humbles me very quickly as like, crap, I'm not as good as I want to be. um
00:16:24
Speaker
If I actually think about a shot that, like I know the wave ramp, the wave ramp on Jaws, when that when you hit that. Let's be honest. Your favorite shot is the right ramp on Avengers, the the the big jump shot. I do like that. Honestly, I like the right orbit shot on Jaws a lot. There's just something about that way that feels and watching the ball path. That is a cool feeling. and i think you've Keith, you have some amazing shots. I just know what I was saying with the wave ramp, though, on Jaws on a premium if you don't you know If you don't hit that perfect, it doesn't have enough to get up there.
00:16:56
Speaker
and And you did design it in a good way where it it can fall on the wire form and you can still get credit for some stuff. But that's another one of those shots where the amount of movement that ball has to do, i mean, you really have to hit that shot well.
00:17:09
Speaker
i I heard Kerry Hardy said that game's completely cooked because that shot would not go all the way up. So, you know, I don't know how jaw cells have been lately, but yeah.
00:17:22
Speaker
What are your thoughts? i mean, Keith, is that ah is that a shot where like, ah was that a lot of work to get that in? Or is there, I don't know. Do you ever feel like you have certain shots in your games where a man, one or two more passes could have done better or just, I know you, cause there's time restraints with, with everything that you do.
00:17:37
Speaker
So yeah, the whole wave ramp shot, uh, obviously I wish it could be easier, but if the ball has to go up so high, so it really does have to be a clean shot the, um,
00:17:49
Speaker
You know, i've I've taken apart my game and like, oh, this ball guy isn't quite aligned to that one. And, and you know, worked great. And i was like, oh, I fixed it. And then, you know, as a flipper, you know, heats up and have to be perfect. You have to be. Yeah, it can be frustrating. But um actually, my least favorite, my personal least favorite shot is the reel in Jaws. that Oh.
00:18:11
Speaker
Originally we we had a ball eating shark in it. It was, it was skinnier than what we ended up with. So both the right side shots kind of narrowed up. So actually if I had to, if I had to redo that, I would probably just remove a standup target and make that as easy as it originally was intended to be. So the, the reel was easier to hit is what you're saying Yeah. But then we ended up having to ah move a standup target.
00:18:34
Speaker
Uh, one of those standup targets, uh, between the right orbit ramp slash whatever and the reel. And it kind of, yeah, kind of shrunk both those shots. So that'd be the one shot that I wish i probably should have just pulled that stand about and rewritten the rules.
00:18:53
Speaker
And so who's in the game's cooked, right? So is that what heard? So, uh, yeah. That's word on the street. Yeah. What do you got, Tom? What do you hate? I was going to say, as somebody who's never designed a game, Keith, are there, are there a lot of times where you're frustrated and you're like, man, I, I really wanted this to work, but it didn't. And then, and then like, do you just move on from it? Or do you, do you, you know, uh, do, do you harp on it a while?
00:19:23
Speaker
So the magnetic Newton ball, hey, sorry, destructor back there, tearing up on my stuff. The magnetic Newton ball, which was originally going to be on Avengers, but we couldn't get it to work because the geometry was wrong and it was way too late in the process to change it. So that's why when I started Godzilla, that was the first thing I put in the geometry exactly the way it needed to be.
00:19:47
Speaker
That was the first thing I designed in there just to make sure that worked. and and never Never anything too frustrating. um I know Iron Maiden was a bit of a chore trying to get the the repeating loop to slow down. And we actually have an adjustment screw behind the back panel.
00:20:07
Speaker
you can actually add a little bit of rattle to it to slow it down. so I don't know if anyone's ever noticed they go back there and they look. I was like, what does this screw do? It actually just pushes the ball gate out a little bit and that it actually slows that loop shot down.
00:20:19
Speaker
so that that was one of the ones where yeah it was frustrating um because sometimes you shoot, especially if you just wax it and just come around there so fast it would to react. what So what are what are your thoughts as a game designer um when it comes to, you know, I think a lot of your games, some of them favor heavily where it's like a lot of people buy the premium or the l LE of that game or a lot of people buy the pro. So like Jaws. like i I don't know. I don't know sales numbers, but I feel like Jaws, almost the vast majority of people that buy Jaws, they buy the premium rally.
00:20:52
Speaker
And, but yet I think you have other games where it's like, there's a ton of Jurassic Park pros out there. And so what does that, I don't know. Do you feel... Do you feel like, do you care if you, if you come away from, or Kong or King Kong right now, a lot of pros are selling of King Kong. Do you want that balance or do you feel better or worse when one model, you know, greatly outsells the other? Or know what what are your thoughts on that?
00:21:17
Speaker
I mean, yeah, I mean, obviously I'm sure Stern would love to sell all the premiums in the world, but you know, but we we got to cater to operators too. yeah. you know we got we have to make a compelling product still uh you know in some cases so in the case of jaws we decided to keep the whole fin mick which is extremely expensive it's basically a motorized drop target with a bunch of sensors and um when we were talking about cutting that it was like well we need this and because you know so many the rules you know gameplay is tied to this moving fin
00:21:50
Speaker
that, you know, we kept it on the pro and deleted the upper play field. So now when you, when you look at the pro, it's like, well, there's nothing on here, but then there's actually a very massive, expensive Mac under there. yeah Um, so, you know, that's kind of the trade-off you, you want people to walk up to the game and say, Oh, look, look at all this cool stuff. But if it's all under the play field, you know, it kind of feels like, Oh, that's empty. That's, you know, what a waste barren, you know, and it's actually now, if you look under there, there's actually a very expensive Mac and,
00:22:18
Speaker
So with King Kong, yeah, I tried to make more of a point. you know Seth really wanted the the Kong, even on the Pro, just the static model, just to fill in space, make it look like, oh, man, you just look thick.
00:22:31
Speaker
Okay. You just look at the premium and the Pro, and you know that you can't really tell the difference until you start playing. Mm-hmm. No, and I i think that's – I like that because I know Kong is one of those that it is much more – think it's a harder decision because the pro and premium really do seem ah more equal. And I'm not saying that that means the premium doesn't have enough. It's just – it's not obvious where you just look at the game like you're saying and and you feel like you're lacking. um Now, I know with Stern and Spike 3, you guys have –
00:23:04
Speaker
added more to the game between with the expression lights in I'm assuming those are going to be in every game and expression lights on the speakers I I'm getting the vibe I could be wrong I don't think designing accessories is your favorite part of designing pinball Keith but I'm guessing you now there's more to add into your games outside of the play field that you as a game designer have to consider Is that exciting for you or is it just, just flashy lights or I don't know, what are your thoughts with all the new technology stuff that are being shoved into pinball machines?
00:23:36
Speaker
So I haven't actually designed an accessory since, um, uh, Godzilla. Um, know, we have, we have engineers that do that now, you know, obviously they'll, they'll, we'll get um input and stuff, but yeah, I haven't designed a topper in a while, which is kind of nice. Uh, you know, the, like, ah, man,
00:23:58
Speaker
I even remember. Oh, the barrel. Yeah. Barrel, uh, shooter rod and jaws, uh, Harrison, uh, it's like, Hey, I have an idea. And I was like perfect. And, uh, same with Kong. Um, we, we wanted like an actual, cause I hate shooter rods. These custom shooter rods that don't actually work well as a shooter rod. So if it has a natural shape that they can still be used as a shooter rod, then that's what I'm going to lean towards.
00:24:21
Speaker
But other than that, yeah, accessories. I mean, I don't even have a Spike 3 development cabinet yet for my next game. So i haven't really looked at what's needed for the accessories. So I can't really answer that question. Yeah, that's fair. ah You did make me think of um there's another manufacturer out there that ah they don't do shooter odds at all.
00:24:40
Speaker
They don't like them. They don't use them. Would you, Keith, ever consider putting a just a launch button in your game? Or do you feel like that's... That that that violates the the Gary rule. Okay. Yeah, we got we gotta to have the combo manual plunge auto launcher. All right, let me ah take care of this real quick. cat is so interested in this conversation. conversation we we We're engaging, sort is what it is. That cat is getting a spanking right now. Keith Elwin is doing Austin Powers next, just because we saw the cat. Put the rumor out there now.
00:25:11
Speaker
Keith, you said, I mean, that's a Gary rule, but I mean, as a pinball enthusiast yourself, do you... Do you like the launch button? Or does that bother you at all when you can't manually plunge a game? No, I'm not a fan of the launch button.
00:25:25
Speaker
I always prefer the the manual plunge. mean, just yeah the combo auto launch manual plunge, I think it's perfect. The only reason I ask is because X-Men here, which I'm an owner of, and I know Tom, Tom Graft, he's a wonderful owner of X-Men. He's on the X-Men Club. um That's a game where I was like... Two-time owner. Yeah, you've had it twice. That's a game where I think you could you could take out that plunge and you could put it in and ah ah a launch button and the game would not change at all. And if anything, it would make dialing it the whole thing in easier. So that's that was one of those things that I'm like, this game, because of the way it's designed, a launch button makes sense. But...
00:26:00
Speaker
I understand if there's limitations or I don't know. I just feel like maybe there's some designers that are all for and a launch button and some are completely against it. Okay. i I mean, case in point, if you're a pro in location and like something goes wrong with that coil, your game's down.
00:26:13
Speaker
Oh, no okay. I didn't think about that. I think Gary's argument to always keep combo on there. Okay. I just saw the light bulb go off on Joel's head. like instantly never thought about that.
00:26:26
Speaker
Never thought about that. Have you ever stepped up to a game where it is broke and you're just hitting the button over and over again and nothing happens? Like Attack from Mars or something like that? Attack from Mars is going to say, if that button is broken, it will eventually launch the ball. But after like two minutes.
00:26:41
Speaker
So you play something else, and when it launches the ball, you go there and play that. Then you go play something else after you train. I never thought about that. I know Travis was asking me the question with the whole, oh, why do I not like that? And we were talking about difficulty. And so let's just take a you know big, broader step back of game design in general.
00:27:00
Speaker
Today, 2025 pinball, as a as an entire hobby, do we do you feel that expectations are the games are too hard they're too easy are we i don't know what are like just that question alone what are your thoughts when i just ask that yeah it's so it's tough man because i i'm an old school player i grew up playing valleys and still classic williams the all of the system elevens all those games are super tough and then
00:27:34
Speaker
As soon as we hit the LCD era, it's like, all right, we know we signed this license. We have all these assets. We have to use these assets. Well, how are we going to use these assets if we don't have a long playing game?
00:27:45
Speaker
And it so it's kind of the conundrum that as a game designer, I have to deal with. It's like, okay, like a Jaws. mean, we had so many assets in Jaws. It was just like, this game's gonna take hours. So I decided that I'm gonna take a good 30 minutes of these assets and just randomly play these as bonus clips when you're and it's counting your bonus. It's like, that's you know we can use all these and it's not gonna slow the game down you know any further than we're already using probably 45 minutes of footage in there.
00:28:16
Speaker
um So that's the biggest thing. And and you gotta get the ball times, you know a little bit of ball times. uh, extra balls. Another thing you really got to, you know, manage, uh, you know, you think it like twilight zone, you could get so many extra balls in that game because the rules are so deep, but obviously they didn't have the assets. So if you play a game like twilight zone now, he's like, Oh, that game's not very deep, but you know, for his time, everyone's like, Oh, this takes forever. And, You know, I have pinball ADHD now. I hardly ever finish a game that I start these days because I just like I'm good for like 15, 20 minutes. And then, know, it's one of the reasons I keep a safe cracker in my office. So it's like, oh, I can be done with this in five minutes and have a good game and move on, you know.
00:29:01
Speaker
and Unless he's playing you at N-Disc, Joel. Then he'll play for 45 minutes straight on Congo. Well, he plays the way he kills. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we talked about this last episode. I think that it's it's.
00:29:12
Speaker
When you're given an IP like Harry Potter and you're supposed to shove eight movies into a game or you're given ah an IP like Star Wars and you're supposed to shoot, you know, shove three movies with nothing but iconic scenes into a pinball game.
00:29:26
Speaker
how do you How do you experience that license without making it a long playing game? And yet, I feel like Star Wars, that layout is actually pretty challenging. And Harry Potter, I think that layout is actually pretty challenging. So it's almost like the physical layouts are counter...
00:29:43
Speaker
what you would need with the IP, but yet, know, you can't, like, I just feel like you're immediately given a problem that's almost impossible to solve.
00:29:54
Speaker
And I, I don't know. I don't know. i don't know. Do you have, like, you haven't, you haven't been given Keith an IP of, like well, Jaws, never mind. Jaws was like four movies worth, but yet you did create, find a creative solution to include clips of all four movies, but not make it like a crazy game. I think really probably what you're asking is, is there a certain framework that you have to use when you have an IP and you know, you need the game to last X amount of time as opposed to not lasting that long or as opposed to being like a 45 minute players? Like, where do you go with that type of framework to start even coming up with ideation from that, like from the get go?
00:30:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I have some thoughts on my next game of how I can do the book best of both worlds. Nobody listens to this podcast. You can tell us all of them. Tell everything. yeah An ability to create a journey that is unique to each button press, but doesn't include everything. So you're not stuck there for 45 minutes, you know, sure that kind of thing. You know, it's something I've been wrestling this for a while.
00:30:59
Speaker
Hopefully I'll start to see it work out in the next game. um Yeah. yeah I mean, do do you not feel like you kind of accomplished that with Godzilla since you have just like you have jet fighters, for instance, or you have the rage combos, right? And you have like power ups, you go for loops. Like, I feel like there's a lot of side quests in there that you could do that you could completely ignore the meat of the game and you still get places with it.
00:31:25
Speaker
So, I mean, do you feel like you've kind of accomplished that already and that you can kind of build off that framework and that idea moving forward? So Godzilla is so simplistic and stupid. That's why it was, I think that's why it's such a great game because, you know, what, what is it? You know, aliens are trying to control the monsters and Godzilla is stopping them. That is the entire premise of the game, you know, slash, you know, a couple of the movies. So that would, you know, nothing had to make sense. You're just,
00:31:54
Speaker
Here's a battle. Here's another battle. What's this have to do with that battle? doesn't matter. Here's another battle. Here's Godzilla destroying stuff. So that that was such an easy IP to work with. Whereas Jaws, you know, you have kind of a linear story to tell.
00:32:07
Speaker
ah You can't show them like killing the shark and then, you know, all sudden you're playing them over the sharks alive again. which is why you know I do stuff like in Jurassic Park, you don't you can't actually catch the T-Rex because I need the T-Rex for the the wizard mode. And it's the same with Jaws. When you do the bounty hunt for the great white, you know he eventually gets away because I need him for the smile mode.
00:32:28
Speaker
So you know it's stuff like that. you know When it has a linear story to tell, it's way tougher than like yeah Godzilla, Godzilla smash. Nobody knows, oh, well, he he doesn't appear in this movie before that movie. That doesn't make sense. yeah I don't have to deal with that. Well, you say it's...
00:32:44
Speaker
You say it's simple, but i mean i I try to film tutorial videos for Flippin' Out. And I will tell you, Keith, yours are the hardest to do. And it's not because of anything negative. It's just you have added so much into that game. you just It's like you sprinkle it with so many extra things you can do that I i put pressure myself of like, I don't want to mess this up and I don't want to forget anything.
00:33:07
Speaker
So I have to study. i have to study and I have to learn how to best communicate how to work through this game. it's It's more simple to be creative because you don't have the constraint of linear, right? So it's like you could go this direction. I mean, it it does make sense because I haven't even thought about Godzilla this way. Tom, you probably have because you're a freaking beauty. you You know all about these things. Yeah. It's like, it even dawned on me, it's like, wait, Rampage is starting, but you're already in a certain, like, whatever, right? It could happen whenever you finally get it going. Or, like the Jet Fighters, for instance, it it makes sense for Jet Fighters to show up whenever, but they don't necessarily have to show up in only one particular battle.
00:33:48
Speaker
So, I mean, and and it still feels like it it has kind of a linear structure to it in essence that isn't a constraint that was put on by the IP, but more or less by you yourself, Keith, like for instance, going from tier one to tier two and knowing what you could unlock from there. So I feel like that just, does that allow you to be more creative in your process because an IP allows you to just take those many detours and then just circle back around to get back to the main parts of the game?
00:34:16
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, exactly. The side quests is or, you know, hey, let me let me use this scene from this movie. It's a little side thing. it has nothing to do with the main plot, but, you know, it is points. It's entertainment, whatever. okay now we're back on track.
00:34:31
Speaker
what What about we've talked a lot about overlap and we think there's a lot of that's the problem with when you put a lot into the game. How do you keep it? How do you even digest what's going on? You know, when you have all these different lights and it's like, well, those lights are are telling you what's going on with your multiball or where you're at with the multiball, progressing locking balls for the multiball. These are your load mode progression shots. are These are hurry up lights. These are some other feature that you could enable. And, you know, you got the whole rainbow going on.
00:35:00
Speaker
on a play field because you have all these different paths to go down and then we've talked a lot about when now of a sudden if you have two three things overlapping you just get lost and you keith have so like you put so much into your game but i don't feel i feel like you found a good way to balance what can stack and what can overlap do you have a design philosophy on like how much is too much going on at one time or how do you control that yeah i try not to stack multi-balls for that very reason um you know because usually when you're in multiple that that kind of takes over some inserts and then if you get two of them stacked together um it can get confusing um so i was playing dracula a couple days ago you know the whole point of that game is to stack three multi-balls at once but yep if you actually pay attention if it does it does not hold your hand does not tell you what to shoot there's no indicator of anything other than relighting locks at the castle or if you actually like the jackpot at the thing
00:35:58
Speaker
it does not tell you anything. So when you have all three of those multiballs going, it's an audio visual with the display and everything and nothing on the play field is helping you at all.
00:36:10
Speaker
And I think games have evolved since then. We have a lot more inserts. We have color changing inserts. And you're right. The downside of that is, okay, now when you've got a bunch of stuff stacked together, you've got all this inserts blinking three different colors thiss and blinking two different colors. Which one do i want?
00:36:23
Speaker
It is a battle. So we try not to have more than two things running at once, but sometimes it can happen and yeah, it makes a mess. But, you know, we also don't want to nerf the game and make it, you know, it's like, all right, you're playing this mode. I'm going to lock out this multiball or vice versa, you know? So with that statement right there, what are your thoughts on Pulp Fiction? Because I know Josh has made it very clear that his whole design philosophy was no stack. I see where he's coming from. I'm not against it, but I think you need some stacking.
00:36:58
Speaker
a Okay. So I'm thinking, so like, and you know, William said it a lot too. I think dirty Harry, if you start a mode, then you start a multi ball, it just pauses the mode and it's just gone until you're done with the multi ball and that's fine. But I think there's strategically, you know, I kind of like being able to well it. Well, this mode is boring, but there's good points. So I'm going to just start this mode and then they start the multi ball and this mode could just happen in the background.
00:37:21
Speaker
yeah So it works both ways. Josh Sharp, you know how to get a hold of us to tell us why you disagree with Keith. We will file your answer away into a folder. No, um ah no I think that's cool. I just, I don't know. It's the last few months ah I borrowed a Munsters LE and and the the the vibe or what I'd heard a lot of people say from Munsters, the game's shallow. they the The code's too simple. You know, they need to blah, blah, blah, blah. But Long story short, my brother and I had a blast with that game. And it's like, this is a modern game with a simple fan layout. The code is super easy to understand.
00:37:59
Speaker
It's like, I kept thinking, comparing it to Monster Bash, and not only from a theme standpoint, but it's just like, yeah, you just got to do these five things and then boom, instead of Monster Bash, you're in Monster Madness. Like, it's so simple and straightforward, but yet I feel like Stern as a company got...
00:38:16
Speaker
backlash because of that simplicity not only with a fan layout but also the rules design but my the eye-opening moment to me was like simple can still be really really fun do you feel like keith do you think there would ever be a time where you would you would purposely design a game that is more simple like is that fair to do or do you just feel today in 2025 we can't do that type of rule set anymore all right here's the thing People will tell you, oh okay, Dracula, for example. I love Dracula. That's a great game. The perfect rule set for it.
00:38:48
Speaker
yeah Oh, how much was it? Oh, well, $4,000. four thousand dollars Oh, and how much is this game? Oh, it's $10,000. Oh, so it comes with, what, two and a half times more stuff?
00:39:01
Speaker
Well, yeah, it better. that's exactly how, you know, that pans out. It's, you know, the cost of the games and plus, you know, all the, you know, the multimedia, which has progressed since like Dracula came out. and We have to get the screen, we you know, we have a whole team of people making assets for the screen and everything. And I think, you know, if,
00:39:23
Speaker
If I try to make a game, I would love to make a simple game, but I think it'd have to be more like the Bond 60th type game. I didn't do the rule set in that game. Mark Panacho did. So I basically just designed it and he was like, yeah, I got a yeah know um basic rule set I can put on this.
00:39:38
Speaker
And I think it's it's fine. It's, you know, it still takes a while to get through it, but nothing, know, it's definitely not, well, I got to do chop wood through these modes, get to this mode, nothing like that. And, you know, I would love to do a simpler a simpler rule set, but I think would have to be on more of a like a special project like that.
00:40:00
Speaker
Interesting. I see it you, cause you're saying you want to get the, well, Yeah. So Travis, you sell pinball machines people all the time. Joel, I had this exact conversation with a customer two and a half hours ago. Well, let's repeat the entire... What I was going to ask is when somebody walks into the pinball company and says, we just finished our basement. We just finished our basement and we want a pinball machine. And you sell a lot of old games and you sell modern games. I'm like, hey, how about a Venom LE? Like that's where I'm like... Come get these machines. But no, like, so the way it goes, you got to consider to like different dealers, different distributors, they have different customers, right? There's retail, there's pinball enthusiasts, there's operators.
00:40:41
Speaker
There's a lot of people that will simply like, I know of people out there that will never pay for a game. It's always via trades constantly. Like there's all kinds of people. They do things for different reasons, but The number one thing that we hear from people that are new to pinball and have done some research, what happens is they always see what the top five games are listed on Pinside every single time.
00:41:06
Speaker
And they go down a little rabbit hole and they start to see why. They start to see the comments like, why are these games popular? And so more times than not, we do get the questions of not necessarily what are the rules to this, but will I get bored of this? Like, how long will it take me to master the game? Like, we hear that a lot because people often think that even if they haven't played ever, they they seem to think that they they will literally beat the game within a month.
00:41:34
Speaker
And we have to tell them pretty much like the reality is that's probably not going to happen for you because a lot of them do remember solid state games or they remember like a Dolly Parton, for instance, right? To where it's very simplistic that way. But no, more times than not, like the customers that we have that come in, they want to see a game with some depth.
00:41:54
Speaker
But they can't necessarily define what that is because they don't know, but they just know they want an experience that doesn't get boring. It's essentially what it is. So that's like a large part of the feedback that that we get in general. So it was even ah Godzilla today. The exact same thing happened. Like person came in and they're they're like, I know it has four battles early on, but I feel like there's all this other stuff attached to it. And we just like...
00:42:20
Speaker
went down it and I was just like, how, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? And he's like, I want to know the whole thing. So we just sat there for 15, 20 minutes going over it. And he's like, I know for sure I want this game and now I want Jurassic Park. So it's like, wow I mean, that's what happens once they get hooked and they understand it. But when you so when you say going through it, does that mean you took the glass off and you were throwing the ball around? No, no, no, no, no. no no So you didn't do that the important thing to understand, it's it's a little bit different than the listeners that listen to this. We can use jargon. Everybody knows designer names. They know.
00:42:52
Speaker
They know the manufacturers, they know everything. But a lot of people that walk in, they're just now discovering pinball. They don't know any of that. So you got to be very careful of giving them all this information through a fire hose and their eyes just glaze over. Like I've seen it happen tons of times. So it's keeping things simple.
00:43:10
Speaker
That's like, for instance, like the building, they wanted to know, is there anything to shoot at? And I'm like, yeah, just shoot the building, shoot the three white arrows as often as you can. Eventually you'll make something happen. What I like to do is I like to not tell them what's going to happen.
00:43:25
Speaker
I just lead them through it, let them play, let them discover it for themselves because there's a lot of joy and fun in discovery. So it's more like just hold their hand through the first part, almost like that mini tutorial.
00:43:37
Speaker
And sometimes they just want to see it. They just want to see you do it. But that's often all it is. You just you break them in through the first step. of something that the game does that's cool, that's fun. And then once you do that, it's a lot easier just to bring in the side stuff and just kind of be like, yeah, and while you're doing this, this might happen. Or while you're doing that, that might happen.
00:43:57
Speaker
And their question always is, well, how do I know what's going on? And we tell them, just play the game. Play the game over and over again. Enjoy it. And you're going to catch on to it.
00:44:08
Speaker
I mean, that's if you're really focused on it, if you decide I want to only play this mode, you're going to understand how to play that mode within 30 minutes of play. You're going to know where the shots are. You're going to know how to start it.
00:44:19
Speaker
Same way. If you want to know how to start a multiball, Do nothing but focus on that. You're going to memorize it either way. And I think just a lot of people, they just, they, they get intimidated easily because they think they have to know the whole thing day one.
00:44:33
Speaker
And it's like, you're not going to go to high school or take a college course and set the textbook down. And you're not expected to know everything in that textbook. immediately like there's a lot of stuff in discovery i mean that's that's why it's fun having these machines at home you have to want to discover it though and what i what i'm what i mean is my wife when she when i get at these games and they come in are you trying to figure out how to get a dune is that you're to out i'm not saying i'm not saying that but to her you know she'll put a game on a on a she'll play a ball or whatever play a game yeah and if and if it's not blatantly obvious immediately
00:45:06
Speaker
what her goal is. You know, if if the whole game's just screaming at her, lights and everything, it's like, well, this looks pretty, but I don't know what I'm doing. um After one game, she's like, I have no idea what I was doing and I have no idea what I did.
00:45:18
Speaker
Right. So I played the game and that's key. So like how early when you're doing rule layout, I don't know, like, how do you prioritize that? Because I think your game does a very, your game always has a very clear, you know, like, there's a shark, I should probably shoot the shark. Oh, there's a building here that's reacting, I should probably, oh, or the T-Rex, that looks like that thing's gonna eat the ball, how do I get that eat the Like, I think you do a, and it's not just a bash toy, I think you do a good job giving something obvious, you dangle a very obvious carrot right there.
00:45:48
Speaker
How early on in rules design do you, do you try to focus on that or prioritize that? mean, obviously very early. So yeah, anytime you're designing a mech, the first thing I think of, how is this going to integrate the game? Cause this is front and center.
00:46:03
Speaker
And so like, you know, case of Godzilla, was like, okay, people are going to know to shoot this big giant building. We're going put these little flame panels you know in front of it. And as more you hit the building, the more the fire builds up on this on these inserts. and But we also have you know the the bridge.
00:46:21
Speaker
It's like, oh, if I hit this captive ball, you know the bridge reacts. So I must be doing something good. And then, of course, Mechagodzilla. Actually, i wasn't sure how was going to use it at first. There originally wasn't a spinner on the...
00:46:33
Speaker
that neck. And I was like, Oh, this is, this is boring. It needs a spinner. And yeah. So then you should spinner or bring Mechagalzilla online. This s thing rotates. I'm like, Oh, I need to bash that. Yeah, you know, we try to make it obvious. And the rules are kind of built starting there. And then you just work everything else around it What about Kong, though? Because Kong's layout is not... It's such a unique layout that I think you put a complete novice up in in front of King Kong.
00:46:59
Speaker
And it's I think it's a more challenging layout because it's not so open or it's not so fanny. And then your main mech, you know, you've put that in the back corner. And that back corner, you know, to lock balls, to experience the whole subway, there's there's a decent amount of work you got to do before you can start doing that. So, I mean, that's a game that I, don't know, I don't think there's an, well, the spider. I think the spider is your obvious mech. Is that where you're, is that the answer that you're, yeah?
00:47:24
Speaker
The spider and the gong are definitely the obvious mechs on there. in the You know, even the drop targets, they're not that that hard to hit. and So you you're probably going to accidentally get those. But yeah, definitely because the pit multiball is like super easy to start. You hit shoot the gong. So right now, with the latest code update, you don't need to bash the gong before before it unlocks. So the first shot through there, you know, you ring the gong, it goes in there and you start the mode rather than before when it kicks back at you. And you're like, oh, oh I don't want to shoot that. So, you know, I give you the first one. And then it's like, okay, so if I want to unlock that again, now I got to do pick Travis's favorite dangerous shot.
00:48:01
Speaker
Well, let's talk about Concode. Where are we at with Concode? I mean, is there, um I know you did some pretty awesome stuff with the New York City modes with the fact that now when you get to those, I mean, I've said this before, the fact that you you do such a great job putting modes into games where you're slowly progressing towards them. Bounty was one of them. I love the concept of bounty. Now New York City modes affect that those yellow lights are always, you're always progressing up the tower. Now you can get to New York City. But what you did with New York City is you've given the ability to play single ball or multi ball.
00:48:33
Speaker
And the scoring is totally different. And you get to pick your mode. I mean, that alone, the replayability and the strategy there is is incredible. But don't know, what are your your future? what's What's more to add in the game? Or what else are you, where are you at with calling code?
00:48:49
Speaker
I'm glad you mentioned the the New York stuff because I really grappled with that um because obviously the events in New York City go in a particular order. And so i my initial thought was, okay, you can well we'll keep it in the same order and then you can choose. Do i want to make a single ball, multi-ball, limited flip?
00:49:10
Speaker
But i just I didn't like locking people into a certain mode, even if even if they're they're all slightly different. Uh, so i made the decision, much of the chagrin of, you know, some people that you can play the modes in any order you want, even though,
00:49:26
Speaker
you're playing a mode where he's he's climbing a building and then next time you get there, you're climbing where he's chained up. And he's like, oh yeah, chronologically that doesn't make sense, but it's way more fun to, you know, you want to feel like you accomplished something and you're not going to feel that way. was like, ah, huh.
00:49:41
Speaker
Cause when the game shipped, you only had the one stage fright mode. was like, oh, I'm so sick of this mode. And i was like, yeah, sorry. There's way more going in there. yeah So at least now we have two more modes in there. We'll get the wizard them in the in there shortly.
00:49:56
Speaker
The licensor allowed it. That's the thing, right? because They sure did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think we're favor really waiting to get in. The game is the power-up system, which is going to help with a lot of different things. um The next update, we should have our our pit mode wizard.
00:50:14
Speaker
And I think the ah the, what's it called? Cliffhanger. That ball save. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. No, it's, I'm excited. That's a game I've told Zach, I want to get one back. I want to stream it again because you just keep pumping awesome stuff and awesome features into that. And it was cool at at Expo when Jared and i were commentating on Tom's amazing stream. We were watching, you know, these high level tournament players play.
00:50:40
Speaker
And I was actually sitting next to Josh Sharpe's son. and they were playing Kong, and they get to the New York City mode, and he's like, he should do this mode this way. And whoever was playing it might have even been ah you, Tom, who was playing, but whoever was playing it picked the wrong mode and played it as a multiball. And here's Josh's son going, nope, shouldn't have done it that way, and here's why. And it's like, to hear all this this logic or thought of, I love it. To my credit, I still won my match.
00:51:08
Speaker
But that's the goal, right, Keith? You want there to be challenge, risk, reward, but also balance enough that it's not blatantly obvious of this is the only way to play the game. Yeah, it probably needs a second scoring pass for sure. But, you know, we're still focused on getting stuff into the game. and Every time we do that, we'll take like five minutes to give it a little score balancing pass. But I think with all the New York stuff, that's going to be a bit more of a challenge to balance those. But if there is a a certain mode at a certain time, I'm not aware of it, but I'll i'll ah i'll look into that.
00:51:38
Speaker
So I got a good question. least I think it's good in my head. Maybe it sounds like shit when I get it out, but either way. So the question I've got, Keith, is, is there a particular mode or rule that you can think of from simpler games, right? From like Bally Williams days or even like solid state, anything you could think of in general that hasn't either hasn't been around for a while or something that you haven't implemented into one of your rule sets yet?
00:52:05
Speaker
that you're thinking about going back to yet. Um, I know that's the hard part because you've done a lot of it. I know a lot of people probably don't realize some of the callbacks to it, but there's gotta be something still that you're like, this hasn't been done in a while.
00:52:21
Speaker
It'd be interesting to do Here's a trivia for you. What is the rampage mode based on in Godzilla? Uh, pass.
00:52:33
Speaker
Tom's got it.
00:52:36
Speaker
i know that I knew this answer like a two years ago because I know you've told me this before. I distinctly remember us talking about this. ah Dolly Parton. so with The wet willy in Whitewater, which I thought was a brilliant idea that they just horribly executed on where there's this traveling shock.
00:52:53
Speaker
going across the play field. And then as soon as you hit it, that's it, mode's over. And I was like oh, well that's disappointing because then you can just trap it up and wait to get to an easy shot. i was like, what if we just kept it going? So I you know kind of built my own mode around that. And that's how ah Rampage was born. um Honestly, the the thing that fascinates me the most and a lot of my coworkers is how, again, Dracula works with its stacking of multivalls.
00:53:25
Speaker
Uh, I think the key is how how you that work? think I just heard Josh Sharp just cringe right now. Stacking. It's like, how do do you make that work on a game that also has a bunch of other features? So Dracula can get away with it because there's not much else going on. Bats and rats. Video mode maybe, but, um, it's like, how do you take that and make it so it's not the only thing you do in the game?
00:53:50
Speaker
I think if you can solve that, that question, um, that would be That would be my next challenge. Well, I know i know this is one of Travis's favorite games. um Toy Story 4, or not Toy Story, sorry, sorry ah Elton John. Elton John, which is actually, Travis actually likes Elton John. Elton John, if you stack, I don't know if you knew this, Keith, but if you stack Rocket Man Multiball,
00:54:14
Speaker
and crock multi-ball crockett you get crockett rock man multi-ball so i mean is i think they might have is that the solve that you were looking for you know the it is but i mean it's still when you're when you get that triple going on dracula and you execute correctly you're blowing it up if you get crockett man you're getting what 20 million points it's it's I mean, they have the ability, they have it in there, but it just isn't... The only modern Stern game I can think of that's kind of like Dracula would maybe be ACDC, just where you can stack all three of the multiballs together.
00:54:54
Speaker
But it's still different. Yeah, and again, there's not much payoff. Yeah. Right. that's That's the key. It's like, hey, here's this cool idea. and it's like I think you only get, like, ah you shoot the bell and you get a bonus. I think that's all it does. Yeah. But what...
00:55:09
Speaker
But if you do that, right, if you focus on you got to get the stack, you got to do the thing. Well, remember, there's people like me that let's say I magically start the thing and then find a way to brick shots for 30 seconds and drain out and the thing's over.
00:55:24
Speaker
And then I'm on ball two and I'm like, I'm not going to do it it. Like, how do you recover for that? Or how do you pivot? How do you get back to it? And and that's that's ah that's a challenge, right? Yeah, yeah I'll let you know when I figure it out.
00:55:35
Speaker
Well, OK, so I talked about New York City and this is something that I've identified in your game. Cyborg multiball is another one. um Recently in X-Men, the latest code, they just added the Berserker multiball and it's all about defeating Sentinels. And the fact that you you are are defeating Sentinels not only in Sentinel multiball, but certain modes. I mean, it's something that you kind of are slowly chipping away at and just having that goal.
00:55:59
Speaker
where it's something you're slowly chipping away at, you're working towards, it's always there. Combos with Mexico Multiball, Deadpool's another example. like I love those modes, and your your games do a great job with that. what what's your You have a term for that, or like what's the that type of mode? I swear you've said something in the past, Keith, where it's it's a mode that you're chipping away at, you're slowly progressing towards.
00:56:25
Speaker
i don't know, what are your thoughts on those, or or how do we do more of that in pinball? You mean like a base game mode? you Maybe that's the way you said it It's like you have your bit. Yeah. It's like something that's always there.
00:56:37
Speaker
big calm. yeah That's the climb feature. It's always there. Jurassic Park. The catching dinosaurs is always there. um and Jaws. The bounty hunt is always it's always there. Yeah. I always try to have something.
00:56:49
Speaker
You know, like if you play Ghostbusters, even you have nothing running, oh I can catch ghosts because that'll lead to something. You know, it's I always like to have some kind of fun thing. Walking Dead's another one. You're a If you have nothing else running, you can you can just shoot sit there and shoot zombies, you know, because it'll progress to something. But yeah, I just call that a base game mode. Base game. But i it seems so simple, but I do think there are.
00:57:11
Speaker
Like dune the Dune, the latest Dune code, they released um a new multiball, and it's something that if you progress through day and night, day and night, so once you get through four busy Jezaret awards, there's the mode. And it's something like, okay, well, even if you're bricking shots, you're still hitting enough switches to progress through day or night. So it's something that...
00:57:31
Speaker
If you play enough, you will get like, those are the types of modes that I find really appealing because that way you can, you can totally tank during, during modes or multi balls. So it's, it's not a mode based off of the number of completions. It's something that I'm, you're just slowly, you know, you're progressing towards. i don't I like that. I just wish that was a more standard design feature in, in pinball of,
00:57:55
Speaker
Like participation trophy? No, no, no. It's not just, it's not a, okay, ball three, you haven't done anything, here's your mode. But if you gotta hit, you just, it's one of those things you're doing and you don't realize you're doing That's what like about it. I think there's cool ways to implement it. I mean, bridge is kind of like that, right? Bridge attack?
00:58:11
Speaker
in a way, on Godzilla to where you got to hit so many switches, but then you have to execute a shot to start the next phase, and you keep doing that. So, yeah, I mean, that's that's always interesting if it's like a switch-based thing that lights a shot or lights a sequence of shots that you've got to complete to go to the next level.
00:58:28
Speaker
Yeah. um That's why i love ah Cyborg Multiball on ah an Iron Maiden, because it's like you're doing stuff already and you're progressing towards it.
00:58:39
Speaker
That was SpyCar multi-ball from Archer. yeah yeah so youre all the All different areas were upgrading parts to your car, then you get it all together you get your SpyCar. So I would say a friend of the show, and and I know you're friends with him as well, Carl D'Angelo with his most, you know, his game, which is crazy that he has a game, Winchester. um He has this 13 mode, and it's a similar thing of you got to collect 13 ramps, 13 targets, 13 summons. So it's a kind of like a cyborg multiball situation of you're building, you're getting so many of each thing.
00:59:12
Speaker
and you're building towards this opportunity to play something. um i i don't I like that because, it's once again, it's something that's always going on and you don't realize it. um Carl did something unique. I'm curious your thoughts. I don't care about points. I've made that very clear. But Carl did a unique thing with his jackpot where if you activate two times play field, what you've done is you now you're not you're not earning any points. All the points that you earn go into ah essentially a pot.
00:59:40
Speaker
that the the ghosts are going to steal from you. And then after, when the play field runs out, you have a certain amount of time to collect all those points or they're all gone. Is that exciting for the three of you that like your points? Or is that, do you not like that? I know this cat, this cat's really pissed off about that in the background. I don't know. Do you like, you like that though? As a, like to hit that crazy valuable shot or to miss all those points.
01:00:07
Speaker
That sounds familiar for some reason. i don't know I don't know. Is that a unique mode to that game? ah I don't know if carl Carl was... I think he's excited about that. That idea of of you're building up this... it's you don't As soon as the Playfield Multiplier starts, you you are earning no points. It's all going into a pot. Is it time-based that you have to cash it in? Like a risk-reward? Well, you build it for... it the like The time is set.
01:00:32
Speaker
You build it, to and then after you run out of time, then you have a certain number of seconds to collect I mean, as long as there's a constraint there, i mean, that's a cool little side path. But if it's like in perpetuity like that.
01:00:44
Speaker
Just for the rest the ball or something, that would be a little little too much. If you have something going on or a mode or something and all you know you're crushing it, then it's like, ooh, I just i just hit that that playfield X. Does it take priority?
01:00:56
Speaker
Is it priority over everything or is it just in the background it? just like initiating a playfield multiplier, but from that moment on until the playfield multiplier runs out, all your points are going into a pot. So all points. All points. And then you have a chance to double it on.
01:01:12
Speaker
Well, there's a 2x... So you hit the you hit it once and it becomes a 2x play field multiplier. And at that point, they're stealing all your points. If you hit the shot again, it can become a 3x multiplier. Same thing. But they're stealing all your points.
01:01:23
Speaker
And when the time runs out, you only have a few seconds to hit the right orbit to collect all those points or they're gone. So if you're in a mode, if you're doing anything... It doesn't matter how successful you're doing it If you don't collect those points, they're gone.
01:01:36
Speaker
It sounds similar. It sounds evil. It sounds a little similar to like Guns N' Roses with cashing out the jackpot. oh Maybe that's what I'm thinking of, yeah. oh where you But that's a, do you want to progress? It's different. Same thing with crank it up, right? do you want to cash out or you want to keep going?
01:01:54
Speaker
this is no what's What's the timer on this? Are we talking 10 seconds or are we talking 15, 20 seconds? fifteen twenty Well, I would say, I don't know. It's probably, heat a a lot of it's 13. So wouldn't surprise me if it's 13 seconds to build and then you have whatever, 13 seconds to hit the shot to cash it all out. um yeah that That wouldn't be bad if there's a build phase that's not outrageous and then a quick cash out phase. yeah and that That makes sense.
01:02:21
Speaker
What about another um another game that's done this, Josh Sharpe, with the Cactus Canyon remake, um the the the new addition with the saloon. He now allows you to... You have angered this cat, Joel, by dissing on points. It's because the cat's out outside. We have Keith Elwin on, and you're talking about points don't matter in games. Well, I'm giving you an opportunity to tell me why points do matter, because in this one, in in the Cactus Canyon remake, you have the ability... They do and they don't. You know that, Joel.
01:02:50
Speaker
It just depends. You can stack your showdowns, and so you stack them all up, and then all of a sudden... ah for all the things you did to qualify the showdowns, they're all stacked. and then And then you have that gunfight, and then you you literally have one shot at a drop target to collect all those points, or you miss it and it's gone. Isn't that like a 7, 8, 9 X multiplier? If you stack 7, 8, 9 qualifiers to do. And so I think that's really cool.
01:03:18
Speaker
I mean, josh is Josh has a story of how Lyman punched his his garage wall Because he missed the shot and he lost out on 100 plus million points. Yeah, I was there. was on attack from Mars.
01:03:29
Speaker
There you go. but oh well but that' that idea that idea of build, build, build, build. build you There you go. You got one shot, one opportunity. You miss it, it's all gone. is that For you points people, is that do you like that? or it's like No, to put all that pressure on one shot is not what you want in pinball. Yeah, I like it.
01:03:48
Speaker
I haven't actually tried any of these games, so I can't really comment on it. I own a Cactus Canyon, but it's an OG. i haven't played I haven't played the new rules. I haven't played ah Winchester yet.
01:04:02
Speaker
Well, when you... or let me Well, yeah. Report back. Report back if you missed that one shot in your showdown and you missed your drop. Report back on that feeling, but you're Keith Owen. You probably won't miss. And then ah same thing with Winchester. if If those ghosts walk away with all your points, you know, right into Carl at IU Pinball and say... you know As so long as it's not ah no you're not losing points, I think that's we kind of where we draw the line.
01:04:29
Speaker
Like, if you're playing hoot on it, mean... You're gambling. Zero is like, well, that was fun. Uh, cause least in tournament mode, you know, it's like a win, lose, win, lose, win, lose. But if you just played on for fun and location, fun, uh, you will, uh, you never know what you're going to get. And it's just frustrating.
01:04:48
Speaker
So you, you don't see yourself ever implementing a rule with a negative value. Like you, now like avoid targets, you hit the targets, you lose points. people don't like losing place They tried Joel with scars. They teased it. They didn't go all the way with It was teased. Well, you're not losing points. You're just reducing the value. not losing.
01:05:08
Speaker
That's why said was teased. They didn't go all the way. People are going to hate that because that's she wrote two rules for that game. That was one of them. That was the first one she did. And I was like, i don't know people are going like that. But then we actually we neutered it a little bit so it wasn't as dangerous as it originally was.
01:05:23
Speaker
I will tell you one of my one of my all-time favorite pinball experiences was is at Pinball Olympics, they they link up two they link up two games, and then they make it where the the target on one game, they did it with Godzilla, and the target on one game will tilt the ball of the other game.
01:05:43
Speaker
Yeah, tilt that like a two from Golden State. And I understand the linking of the games is the hard part, but if you, Keith, if you ever implemented that in one of your games where you have some ridiculous mode, and you put one random thing on that play field that if you hit that target, boom, you tilt,
01:05:59
Speaker
it'll randomly tilt someone on ic's game how's that no yes that would be funny but i'm saying if it's your fault where it's i mean would you ever consider doing that you you put something in your game where you're talking just a challenge mode right not during an actual like real game three ball game he's the i'm This is Joe we're talking about. He doesn't care about the score. I know. He's like, I just want to fuck over player two. it wouldn't be player two. I'm saying it's you. It's you hit your target. That's on you. You tilted your own ball. What you what you're describing is Mario Kart. So...
01:06:37
Speaker
Yeah, hit this target, you're going to screw everyone else. It's it's kind of what you're describing. But I'm saying, what if you did what if you had a New York City mode where you say, yeah, you can do single ball play, but it's going to be 3x value, but one of those targets will end your ball. like that That's what I'm saying. is you give You give that risk-reward of, you get all the points are there, but you have to play that. But if you hit this target, there would be a riot, I'm telling you. but you gave it like It would have to be a challenge mode or a wizard mode.
01:07:05
Speaker
You could not put that in what normal gameplay. You put that in the tilt. But if you think about Kong, the power-up target, right? It's dead center. It's nice and small. Joel, fetch is not going to happen. Stop trying to make it happen. I just think it would be... can do it hey You can't do Hey, let me know, Carl, when you do that. Because I would love... ah Nothing would bring me more joy than to see Travis tilt his own ball because he hit a target he wasn't supposed I would trap up and just time it out. That's what I would do.
01:07:31
Speaker
That's exciting to me. i don't But then again, I don't care. But you guys hear that and you're like, that's a ridiculous thing to even offer. I like the idea that you have. I think we just go too far, right? yeah This is like Thelma and Louise and you've just done drove us off the cliff. You can get us close to the cliff.
01:07:47
Speaker
Right? Well, okay. If people are watching this on YouTube, comment below. is that ah Does that excite you or not? Because like I like modes that kill your flippers because you reward, right? you You did the thing. You blew it up, killed your flippers. Enjoy the moment.
01:08:02
Speaker
This is the opposite, right? like like what's What's the word for this? Masochist? Is that the word I'm looking for? Reminds me of dialed in where I think if you don't if you don't hit a target with certain certain amount of time, doesn't that kill your flippers? Yeah.
01:08:17
Speaker
Oh, yeah. It has like what the MP pulse like that that's kind of fine. Joel, they already have the Death Star shot. I mean, come on. It's true. Well, you could, um the other way you could implement it would be, you know, you have Oxygen Destroyer, right? You have Oxygen Destroyer and Godzilla, so you have 10 seconds.
01:08:37
Speaker
Well, what if instead of 10 seconds to hit a shot, you have to hit a shot, but slowly more and more shots are lighting up, and if you hit any of those shots, boom, you just killed yourself. Like, that's... See, I actually like that idea. That's cool. you You had a great idea, Joel. Now that actually makes thematic sense in that you have to skillfully do something. You're not necessarily screwing yourself over because it's part of the actual mode. So the only shift there, Travis, is instead of hitting a target that kills you, you're saying no, you want to hit a shot that saves you.
01:09:06
Speaker
Because if you know, that's a difference. Like you're given, you know, you're given positive progression towards somebody like, imagine if you did, if we did this, right. You created a game in which you hit a shot and it tilts out your game.
01:09:19
Speaker
Do you know how many like letters and angry emails we will get that our game is constantly broke? and Oh, Oh, I'm not selling games, Tom. You selling games. I'm not selling games. aren Like I said, that's gotta be challenge. Don't bring me into this discussion. Yeah. A challenge. Okay, that would be a fun one. I am not for this at all.
01:09:39
Speaker
Just contact Bug. This sounds like some spooky would do. Sturm Pro Circuit timed event or something. Oh, God. I was going to also put Tip Telec the Sturm Pro event. That would go really quick.
01:09:51
Speaker
Oh my gosh. It's just thought, hey, and you guys are all making it clear that it's a bad thought. No, your second idea was great. Like, that's why whenever you're coming up with creative ideas, you never just straight up shut it down and just say, okay, don't go with anything. You could say, hey, that's a bad idea, but keep going, and then eventually you'll find the good idea, which is what you about this, Joel? You hit one target, and you're done with the game. It's finished.
01:10:17
Speaker
You have... you have defeated the wizard mode. It's the ultra secret skill shot. yes the ultray you I have thought of a a wizard mode that's all or nothing. So you can double your score or lose all your score.
01:10:31
Speaker
o would you Would you have that in competition mode? Well, if you're getting to the main wizard mode and competition mode, you probably wouldn't. I mean, expo. Expo. It could happen. True. So you're saying you roll into that final wizard mode, that ultimate wizard mode with 2 billion points, and your options right there are double or nothing.
01:10:51
Speaker
And if you don't finish the mode, you drain out. you Your game ends at zero points. Yep. We'll give you 10 points. How's that? Hey, I'm all for that. Just put no. Make a double zero. Make a double zero. Make a perk, Keith.
01:11:05
Speaker
I don't know. I just... Okay, kind of a side thing, but I have to give Raymond Davidson a shout-out. I was kind of harsh on Star Wars last game. Harsh? Ray Day reached out. Ray's still crying about it.
01:11:17
Speaker
Well, he reached out and a reason originally it was like, Joel, you're off base. or like Basically it was like, you're wrong. and then But honestly, we had a great discussion back and forth and he gave me some validity to some some of my points and then he also made it clear on on limitations or why he had to do what he had to do. And I understand...
01:11:34
Speaker
you know, that many modes, that many movie clips, you know, your hands are tied in a way to like, how do you make these? You can't, you can't have them crazy unique or stand out because of just how many there are, but also the complexity of what that would be.
01:11:47
Speaker
So he tried to be consistent with what they are. And in that way they're a little little easier to understand how you get through those modes. But To me, I don't know. To me, that's what I like about pinball. And I think, Keith, that's something you're doing very well with Kong with how different the modes feel. And that's I understand that's that's a challenge as a rule designer, because the layout of the play field isn't changing like you. So how do you how do you approach that? How do you hone in with a mode? Unless it's Venom.
01:12:15
Speaker
Unless it's venom. Um, but how do you hone in on that with a mode where you're like, okay, I want to special, want to make sure that this mode is focused on this area of the play field, or I'm going to play this mode, you know, different than just the other mode.
01:12:30
Speaker
Yeah. So when I was designing Kong, obviously I had the, you know, the cross shots with the upper flippers in mind. So I definitely wanted to design a mode around that, which is cross the chasm.
01:12:42
Speaker
Um, You know, then I have drop targets. Okay. So, you know, Trinodon, because I was just, it was in the story. there was no rhyme or reason for it, but there was just a focus of not only the drop targets, but then the cave, um, save and was, you know, basically based off the gong because, you know, in the story, they ring the gong to summon Kong.
01:13:06
Speaker
And then, you know, you have your, your everything mode, like in Godzilla, I had, um, Megalon, which is like, it could be any shot. And that's kind of what the Stegosaurus is. It's like, okay, this can be anywhere in the play field.
01:13:19
Speaker
You're just moving around. And then escape the swamp. I let Josh Henderson write that rule, but i I said we should probably use the the punchback target. um so you know he did that and added like a little combo at the end so yeah we try to you know we don't want to use the exact same uh shots and if you ask me ah games where every single mode is just shoot the colored arrow to me those get boring fast you can just swap in any asset for that and you know you you don't even you don't even care so i think it's important to
01:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, compartmentalize each mode to either a device or a section of the play field that is otherwise you know not used enough. Yeah, I completely agree. Now, Travis had thrown out the idea last time of how do you do that with a fan layout, though? Like, how do you do that?
01:14:13
Speaker
Can you do that? Can you do a modern rule set with the complexity and depth that people want? with a layout that is, because you you you know the way you just described it, you know you got the Kong area, the drop target area, the upper left area, that this, but if you just if you have a fan layout, can you do that? Can you can you design rules with that uniqueness? If that makes sense. no i think Yeah, you are kind of you're kind of crippled.
01:14:39
Speaker
It would depend on the inserts, honestly. Cause like if you have a whole, but I can jaws, for example, via you had three different swimmer inserts on each shot. You know, you could probably do something if you had unique inserts for it, but yeah, if it's just, all you have is an RGB or basically all you can do is well, it's either lit, not lit or you're making it change colors, but yeah, other than that, that's, that's tough.
01:15:01
Speaker
It becomes harder. Yeah. Um, Yeah. I mean, we were brainstorming different things of, you know, like when you have different modes based on, like I, I really love in D and D how they have a mode about stealth. And if you now hit your slings, you know, so the, for the first time ever, you're, you're actually worried about sling hits, uh, how that affects the mode, you know, that's funny. first had something We have something in Kong for that, but it's just not as obvious in the, uh, the T-Rex mode. It's the same thing. If you, uh, after somebody sling hits, then you gotta, um, you have to rescue and from, uh,
01:15:34
Speaker
one of the t-rexes but it's probably not as obvious as a dnd when you're trying to sneak but yeah but that i mean that's i mean yeah the slings are there at all times and for now all of a sudden a mode is highlighting those and making those feel special so it's i don't know i think that's the um the challenge i mean that's what i think the the goal with this conversation was just like bringing up the challenges and that's you know Tom, Travis and I, none of us are designers, and so it's easy for us to be critical, right? Because we know best. But we we that's what it's so obvious that this box of lights is so much more complex than all the decision-making that you have to have. is there anything that Maybe we'll just leave that open-ended for you, Keith. is there What's something that the pinball enthusiast doesn't realize is as hard as it is? Or like...
01:16:22
Speaker
yeah, we're downplaying it as, you know, we're saying, well, just do that. and And you're sitting there going, you can't do that. And here's why. I don't know. Um, it's, it's hard enough to start repeating yourself. I think that's the thing. you know, when you first come on the scene, everything's new.
01:16:36
Speaker
And, uh, so, you know, I've, I catch myself sometimes like, Oh, no, that, that mode's too similar so-and-so, but you know, it gets harder as you go.
01:16:47
Speaker
I'll say that. Um, Managing a team also, it's probably, you know, people don't realize, even though I'm not working on geometry today, I'm not working on rules, but I am, you know, managing my next project and I'm still in Kong. So, you know, that that's all stuff that, you know, you're dealing with artists, you're dealing with sound guys, you're dealing, you know, licensors. So it's that's the part of the job that I think people don't realize.
01:17:14
Speaker
It's like most of your time is spent doing. i mean, I can, like I said, I kicked out that, On Bond 60th, I did that CAD work in two weeks because that's all I had to do. I didn't have to deal with the rules. i didn't have to deal with the licensor. Yeah, just make me play with it. Done.
01:17:27
Speaker
That's the easy part. if the rest The rest is like um managing. you know it's It's harder than that it seems when the projects, as soon as you finish one project, you've to start another, but then you've still got to keep going back to this one for IC updates and you know topper stuff and all that. So yeah, it gets to be a lot.
01:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, I know i'd I'd ask you something similar in the past, and that was your answer. And that was very eye-opening to me. that i think I think a lot of people assume a game designer is just screwing stuff in and out of a play field and moving posts around and dialing in shots and working with a mechanical engineer to you know really fix the mech. But I think you really made it sound like that's the fun and easy part in a way. It's the managing the team.
01:18:13
Speaker
And the whole overarching project to make sure that every aspect is addressed the way it needs to, that's that's your that's your everyday work. I mean, I have a great team, so it's not like it's it's not like hard to manage or anything, but I think that is part of the job that people don't realize you're spending a lot of time doing.
01:18:30
Speaker
yeah It's up to the game designer. you know All this stuff is up to the game designer. It's like, oh, what sound do you want to hear? What music do you want to hear? you know Like with Jerry Thompson, he just like we kick back and forth stuff. He's like, what do you think of this song? was like, oh, that's perfect. Or I don't know why I'm going to use this, try something else.
01:18:46
Speaker
you know If there's assets, who cuts up all those assets? Like all those clips in Jaws, that's me. So yeah that that took months. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff that the game designer is responsible for that I think people don't realize.
01:19:01
Speaker
Is that why you've never had um Ray Day as one of your like lead code guys because he's too hard to work with? is that Yeah, I worked with him on the Avengers. avenged Yeah, that trophy, all those trophies. He did the trophies. Yeah, he did all the Trophy Mania stuff.
01:19:18
Speaker
Well, you did say earlier that you typically tune out after the first hour because at that point we just ramble. So we're at an hour and 20 minutes. But Tom, tra was there anything you weren specific you want to talk about, Keith or Tom or Travis? do you have any any other questions that that we want to work through or discuss?
01:19:35
Speaker
Hmm. ah That in in itself is a good question. I think it pretty much. Well, I think here's the unique thing. It's okay. Here's a good question. All these we've noticed at expo, for instance, the homebrew section is just exploding, like absolutely exploding. Like there's everybody that's interested design. I know like me personally, I'm starting to get more and more interested in design just from like a game theory standpoint. So yeah,
01:20:02
Speaker
What would you tell people, Keith, listening to today? Because obviously you worked on Archer. You had homebrews. I think South Park was another one that you worked on a long time ago. Yeah. So it's like, what what would you tell people today that are halfway thinking about doing it? Like, what is like the number one thing you would Not just like, hey, just do it. But it's like, what's something that you've learned that's kind of like you wish you knew when you first started that would probably help guide you further down the line or get you to where you wanted to be a little bit quicker with your design philosophy?
01:20:33
Speaker
So I'm on the the hands-on philosophy. Like when I designed Archer, I just grabbed the wood, started screwing stuff together, you know, trying different shots. And then once I got to a point where thought, okay, this shoe's pretty good. Now I'm going to put it on CAD, which sounds backwards, but actually it saves you so much time. Because in CAD work, you know,
01:20:57
Speaker
Oh, I think the shot will work. So you you go through all the trouble designing the CAD, you print it out one-to-one or are you a cut it. And then you're like, well, this doesn't work. Let's, you know, let's cut another play field. Let's cut another play field. When in reality is you, it's not that hard to transfer anything you screw onto piece, as long as the wood's the same size, obviously as a normal play field.
01:21:18
Speaker
um So that's kind of how i designed Archer. I just started throwing ball guides. I had, I think I started with ramps from other games, just as placeholders, you know, they didn't go where I wanted them to, at least I can say, okay, I can shoot this ramp.
01:21:31
Speaker
And then when the time came to actually make the ramp, you know, I did that because I knew, okay, this is locked in. I'm not going to have to move it, which will totally change the geometry. um Yeah. And it seems like, ah I mean, these guys are awesome. When I did Archer, i did I didn't spend any money on that thing. I basically, bought the computer the monitor. I had an old junk Congo cabinet, um,
01:21:53
Speaker
My friend and coworker, Mike Gertarelli, had get boxes and boxes of Pinball 2000 Star Wars Episode I parts. So he gave all that to me. so you know, I just took all these parts, screwed them to the wood. And that was a homebrew for the time, which I know now, if I bring that to Expo and compare it to these guys now that have art and they have rules and, you know, nice displays everything, it looked like a piece of crap. So hats off to those guys for sure.
01:22:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. And I, Joel agrees. Your, your initial design would look like crap compared to everybody else. You heard it here. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. i like it To the point, I've had a lot of people, Hey, I, you know, i want to get in the game design. Um, I got, you know solid works or AutoCAD. And i was like, just don't even worry about that.
01:22:45
Speaker
Scrab yourself some flipper max. And what I did is, uh, is it's really cheap aluminum strips that I don't know exactly they're used for, but i got I got them for the hardware store. They're super easy to bend by hand. ah You can, you can 3d print some things to hold them or you can actually rivet stuff together, but that's all I did. I took these super cheap strips. I would bend them.
01:23:05
Speaker
Okay. This works great. Then you can switch the steel after you already have, you know, the ball guide, you know, the ball pass figured out, but that's my advice. Just, you know, screw stuff to wood and try it before you,
01:23:19
Speaker
burn out, that goes for you, Travis, for you burn out, not only learning CAD software, but trying to like shoot it in your mind, which is way harder than you think it is. Yeah. And, uh, we asked Carl a similar, cause we're like, how did you design Winchester in California when the factory is in Texas? And, and it's basically like, you just do it in 3d printing, like 3d printing has really opened the doors for so much. Cause you can, he's like basically every Mac in Winchester was 3d printed before it was anything else. And.
01:23:47
Speaker
um I don't know. That's awesome that there's so many cool tools for creators nowadays in the homebrew community. um I forgot one question I was supposed to ask you, Keith. um Somebody said, I don't remember who said it, but they said that you don't make good tournament games, essentially. i mean, I may be paraphrasing that your games are not good tournament games. Do you agree with that?
01:24:10
Speaker
And as it is as the you know one of the best tournament players of all time, and and you know rumors are that Stern only designs tournament games, apparently you don't do that well. I did not say, for the record, they are not good tournament games. I said they're not designed to be for tournament players in tournament games.
01:24:29
Speaker
Exactly. um phraseing focus If you focus on making a game for tournament players, you're you're going to put 99% of you know, Joe six pack, he walks up at the park. Kate. Oh, I like jaws.
01:24:40
Speaker
I have no idea what I'm doing. This is crazy. So yeah I definitely do not design games for tournament players, but I mean, usually see the knobs are there to make them harder, but for some reason, most tournament directors do not, but you I mean, taking a gate out on um Kong, that that's definitely one of the things you can do.
01:24:57
Speaker
um You know, it's on jaws. You can make jaws really hard, really easily just by removing all the so post rubbers in and out lanes. You know, there's always, there's always stuff you can do to make a rubber that, you know, if it's a location tournament where you can't do any of that, then yeah, I just, you know, I don't want to piss off the the casual player just, you know, just so people can use my games in tournaments.
01:25:23
Speaker
You, um, But you are all of your suggestions involved editing hardware. Joel, you hear this, Joel? I'm not going to let this go, Joel. You hear this? What?
01:25:34
Speaker
and That makes me right. And you partially not as right. i i I didn't say you're wrong. I said partially not as right. I just thought you had said a very bold statement about a well-respected designer and I'm just calling it out. That's all I was doing. But you Keith, you're suggesting all the the changes you would suggest are hardware changes. You're not saying go into the code and make things, you know, double the amount of hits or something like that.
01:26:00
Speaker
You can do that, but you know, is it fun? Like, okay. No. Yeah. All right. Tom and I will answer you for that, Keith. Like, no. All TDs, if you're making your software more difficult, besides no ball save, like, anything else is just annoying. Yeah. If you make the PID on King Kong, oh, instead of three hits, it's ten. You're just taking that whole feature out of the game. It's like, what's the point? Yeah.
01:26:23
Speaker
So I'd rather, you know, but is not only can you move the rubber, you can move the entire post on most of my games, and, you know, it's still, it's not going to hurt anything, and it'll create a lot more drains, but Yeah, actually, removing gates on Kong. That's brilliant. I never even thought of that.
01:26:42
Speaker
Brilliant. Speaking of brilliant, Tom, do you have any other questions for Keith or any other thoughts? Yeah, just a follow-up on that. I like Keith and Godzilla, how you can't decrease the ball save time to zero and it pisses Josh Sharp off. Josh Sharp. Yeah, actually, it pissed me off so bad.
01:27:06
Speaker
when i i don't remember what game it was, but yeah, I spent all this time getting to some multi-ball. And it kicked another ball out right when he, you know, I started right when, think it was bridge or something. Ball drain, kicked another the ball out, it was over. I was like, dude, what the hell?
01:27:20
Speaker
Ooh, it's in the adjustments. Okay. Nice.
01:27:25
Speaker
You were like, I know a guy. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I know a guy. um Yeah. Yeah, we'll take care of that. I don't want people to feel ripped off in a tournament because going to say, this thing sucks. So definitely his strident response generated, I think, a minimum of eight seconds.
01:27:44
Speaker
um Wow. Yeah, because you took one second. yeah because we had a mass We had a mass update, I think, for IC couple years ago, and I told Rick,
01:27:55
Speaker
All my games. Get rid of a zero. Put the four eight. Get rid of the Josh rule nonsense out of here. um I do remember the one other question I wanted to have. And it's, you know, when we look at some of the success that some of the other pinball manufacturers are having with some of their games selling out immediately. And and one of the one of the things that i that stood out to me about some of their their games is when you look at the world under the under glass, there's a lot...
01:28:20
Speaker
There's a lot of sculpts, a lot of sculpts, a lot of sculpts, you know, not so much flat plastic, a lot of sculpts. And I understand that, you know, they're they're spending money on those. That's part of their bomb. I think, Keith, your bomb has always... i feel like you spend your bomb on shots and layouts and mechs. Like, that's the playing of the of the game. i don't your What's your view on, like, that type of stuff? Cosmetic, playfield sculpts. Do you feel like now, in 2025, that is needed for a game to feel...
01:28:49
Speaker
value you know the values there or do you feel like no i'd rather spend the money on an opto spinner you know i don't so it's a double-edged sword because everyone is like oh that's you know a five dollar plastic i was like yes that's true but in order to make that tool to create that five dollar plastic it costs tens of thousands of dollars so you have to draw the line somewhere it's like yeah what i love to Have a really ornate Quint, Shaq and Jaws? Yes. But um you know you're looking at 20, $30,000 to have someone actually make that. And then, okay, now we can pop those out for five bucks a piece, but that's the hidden expense I think people don't see.
01:29:32
Speaker
I think what these boutiques can get away with since they're so you know limited productions and they they release games so slowly, I'm sure they 3D print a lot of their stuff. So I think they benefit from that greatly if that is what they're doing.
01:29:46
Speaker
but But for us, we always injection mold everything. We don't 3D print anything. So it's it's a whole thing and it takes months. So believe it or not, we have like six months for the game comes out. We have to lock these vaults in because it takes so long to get made.
01:30:01
Speaker
um it's it's something you have to think about way in advance. So if there's any kind of, any kind of thing you that need to change, you can't. So that's the tough part of skulls, but I do agree. I like them, you know, I think that's cool. They fill out, you know, dead spaces of your layout.
01:30:19
Speaker
Yeah. I, I think that's a, that's a great answer really. I mean, it's, and I also think I'm, I'm curious as, as as a designer, do you ever consider, like modding potential as in you, you know, I wanted to expect a modder to add a whole new mech shot, whatever into a game, but a mod, the modding community could add a cosmetic, whatever in like, uh, they could replace that flat plastic with this, or they could add, you know, like I forget what game it was, but Harrison and i actually came up with a flat plastic with a bracket to hold, you know,
01:30:53
Speaker
ah commercial you know figurine i forget which game it was and then people are complaining about oh it was just flat plastic and then you're not noticing there's this big sturdy bracket there that you can screw anything to that yeah we gave you so you wouldn't have to glue it to your game you know it's like we did think about that like i said i wish i remember the game yeah and uh so but yeah but we think about that even kong um i didn't have anything left in the budget to do like a molded skull in that the back left corner but you know I put lights there for people. yeah you know I figured people would be modding that, take that plastic out, 3D printing their own stuff.
01:31:28
Speaker
So yeah, I definitely think about that stuff. Yeah, and it's it's interesting that you brought up earlier just perceived value of these games because these games are expensive. So it's it's does does the perception of I'm getting my value in code depth and I'm getting my value in what's physically in the game. i don't know. It's just stuff like that that I hadn't I don't think I've thought to at the same level as you. And then obviously I know Travis does this as well with, with the selling of pinball machines, but, um, that's a fine tightrope for sure. the It's the art expensive games are also getting more expensive to make, you know, obviously the tariffs and the cost of steel and wood. And it's with all these like, uh, boutique companies. It's, it's raised the price of, um, you know licensing stuff. So it's, it's all these hidden costs, ah you know, and Stern has kept the prices where they have for a while now.
01:32:21
Speaker
And it it gets tougher and tougher for sure with all this, like everything that's going on in the world right now. Yeah. No, I think that's great. Well, ah before we get rambling, we should probably wrap it up. But Carl, well, Carl, well, Keith, if you have, oh I fixed, I caught it. oh I caught it.
01:32:42
Speaker
Well, it was nice having you on, Keith. Sorry, won't be back. Yeah. We said before we started, actually, before you hopped on, I think you are now our... I think you have appeared the most of any guest. So... It's not a second time, right?
01:32:58
Speaker
No. I think it's your third. Third. Third for sure. Maybe fourth. hope Travis wasn't there, so yeah. Yeah. I could... We'd have to double check. This is episode 70, which is crazy. We were at... I think it was when...
01:33:11
Speaker
Was it when Kong released? When did we have like the four hour podcast? like That was a live session. Yeah. live. Yeah. We love live. And that you've been on this twice. And I think hopefully this is the first time we've gotten through technically sound. We will see. But Keith, Keith, if do you have anything you want to plug or anything left you want to say?
01:33:28
Speaker
I'm attempting to bring it back a feature from the fifties. Wish me luck. The 50s. Okay. Time to look. Time to look at a... Dumpty Dumpty remake. Here we go.
01:33:39
Speaker
Okay. Thank you for that. Now now now the wheels are spinning. We'll have to... there's something think about. That's awesome. i think I know what it is, but I'm not going to say it publicly. think I got an idea. Okay.
01:33:50
Speaker
Well, Tom, I think I know what it is, but I'm not going say either. You've never played a game before. No, I know. I'll say after we go off air. No, I think know what it is. I'll say it after we go off air. It's Woodrow. Is what it is.
01:34:05
Speaker
Spike for Woodrow. Can't wait. The school pigeon is coming back. The LCDC is gone. It's just going to be lights in the back for this car, Joel. But Joel, you won't have to worry about that anyways.
01:34:17
Speaker
Wow, wow, wow, wow. Score, yep. All right, Tom, ah plug away, man. I am on this podcast and Fox City Spinball. I will be hopefully at the Winter Bash if there's not a a snow apocalypse next weekend. So turn in for that. I believe ah Travis and Keith will also be there. so Actually, see i'm I have to pull out of that.
01:34:42
Speaker
Oh, no. Because Travis and i are going somewhere else a couple days after that. Yeah. Ah, gotcha. Secret mission. Yeah. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Okay.
01:34:53
Speaker
We're going to solve this plastic crisis is what we're going to do. We'll i miss you there, Keith. Yeah, sorry. But hopefully there's not a snowstorm. i don't think there's going to be.
01:35:04
Speaker
Maybe there is. Wow. Fingers crossed. Nope, we're good. It's 28 degrees. It's sunny. It's fine.
Closing Reflections
01:35:09
Speaker
We're all Well, thank you, Tom. Thank you, Tom, for being here. Maybe by you. Yeah. Oh, true. Appleton. Uh...
01:35:17
Speaker
Travis, plug away, man. ah Yeah, this podcast and then my job. Sick plug. Sick plug. Thank you. My name is Joel. I stream on Flippin' Out YouTube channel with my brother. Check out some of the tutorials I've made. I've made a few tutorials of Keith's amazing games.
01:35:33
Speaker
ah So feel free to check those out. um Those are actually some of our higher viewed videos, believe it or not. ah Keith are our our tutorials. And what I love is on the Flippin' Out YouTube channel, the highest...
01:35:45
Speaker
viewed stream that I've ever done was Godzilla pro from like years ago. That thing just keeps getting views, which makes, which makes me laugh. Um, but, uh, yeah. And then I guess as well. Yeah. So, uh, Keith, thank you so much for being on here and, uh, really appreciate you coming on and it's always fun talking pinball and, and, um, who better to talk design with than, than one of the best designers currently doing the job.
01:36:09
Speaker
Um, same guys maybe ever. Yeah. It's a good time. All right. Well, like always, Tom, you get the last words. ah Play more pinball.