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Atlantic Rock Art with Clare Busher O'Sullivan - Ep 134
202 Plays11 days ago
In this week’s episode, Alan chats to Clare Busher O Sullivan, archaeologist, author and rock art specialist about her work with Atlantic Rock Art in south-west Ireland. They speak on topics ranging from Mesolithic markings to Neolithic chambered tombs, and even compare the differences between Atlantic and Californian rock art motifs!
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/rockart/134
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Find out more about Ireland’s Prehistoric Rock Art:
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- Rock Art Our Ancient Landscapes: Prehistoric Rock Art in Ireland
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Transcript
Introduction to California Rock Art Foundation
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Hello out there in archaeology podcast land. This is Dr. Alan Garfinkel. I'm the president and founder of the California Rock Art Foundation. And what we do is we identify, evaluate, manage and conserve rock art both in Alta, California and in Baja, California.
Collaboration with Native Americans
00:00:21
Speaker
We conduct field trips, we have trainings, exercise, we do research, and in every way possible we try to preserve, protect, and coordinate treasures of Alta and Baja California Rock Art, of which there are many, and diverse. We also work closely with Native Americans and partner with them to recognize and protect sacred
Call for Support and Donations
00:00:42
Speaker
sites. So for more info about the fabulous California Rock Art Foundation, you can go to carockart.org
00:00:48
Speaker
Also, i'm I'm open to give me a call, 805-312-2261. We would welcome sponsorship or underwriting, ah helping us to defray the costs of our podcasts, and also membership in California Rock Art Foundation, and of course, donations since we are a 501c3 nonprofit scientific and educational corporation. God bless everyone out there in podcast land.
00:01:16
Speaker
You're listening to the rock art podcast. Join us every week for fascinating tales of rock art, adventure, and archeology. Find our contact info in the show notes and send us your suggestions.
Welcoming Claire O'Sullivan
00:01:33
Speaker
Hello out there in archeology podcast land. This is your host, Dr. Alan Garfinkel with player O'Sullivan from the great country of Ireland. This is the first time we've had anyone on our podcast in three years from Ireland. So how are you, Claire?
Claire's Background and Passion for Rock Art
00:01:58
Speaker
I'm great, Alan. How are you? Good. It's wonderful to hear that Irish brogue, ah don't you think? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I saw your
00:02:12
Speaker
picture and you seem like a very enthusiastic and knowledgeable guest scholar, as I call all of our various interviewees. I'm rather excited about this. I know a little to nothing about Irish rock art, so I listened to that YouTube video with interest. We just had another gentleman on this preceding podcasts to talk about those tombs that they find in the Europe, the mounds and the rock tombs. But I think what you're going to talk about is something slightly different, correct? Yeah, that's it. It's definitely different. Yeah. So Claire, what I like to do, which is different from, I think, what you've experienced before,
00:03:07
Speaker
I like to get in your mind and your spirit first. Give us a snapshot, a thumbnail, a bit of an autobiographical portrait of how someone like yourself gets involved and passionate with your study of rock art. That would be very, very interesting to our audience and always is.
00:03:32
Speaker
Okay, cool. Well, firstly, thank you so much for having me on the podcast. I'm delighted to be here to chat to you about Irish rock art today. So I suppose how I got into rock art, well into the North Atlantic rock art was when I was doing my undergrad and I was doing my thesis, I chose the topic of megalithic rock art.
Discovery of Atlantic Rock Art
00:03:51
Speaker
So, I was looking at Newgrange, the UNESCO heritage sites and you know internationally. I was looking at La Crewe Passage grave and in County Meath and it was kind of the the megalithic art that really intrigued me. And the more I delved into it and and the more I kind of learned and understood about it, the more it actually made me realize and I found out that there was another kind of rock art and the Atlantic rock art style. So that was really exciting because I suppose it is a lesser known aspect of Irish archaeology and of rock art. You know, a lot of people would know rock art in the form of the megalithic art and, you know, La Crewe, Newgrange Passage grave cemeteries. and Whereas this rock art is lesser known, but personally, I think even more exciting.
00:04:42
Speaker
So I suppose then when I completed my undergraduate thesis, and I just couldn't wait to delve further into this unique or this, this kind of art. And that's, that's what brought me here, I suppose.
Characteristics of Irish Rock Art
00:04:55
Speaker
Now expose us to exactly what this style of rock art is. I know you've talked about it in that YouTube video, but for people who are unfamiliar with it. Let's go into some great detail about exactly the landscape context and the character of this rock art, please.
00:05:22
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So this rock art in Ireland is very much found in open-air, rural landscapes. So my study area would have been the southwest, so Cork and Kerry, and the landscapes that I would have been looking at, they would have been very, very rural, and they would have been, you know, boggy landscapes in Cork and Kerry.
00:05:44
Speaker
and the art would occur on boulders and outcrops, mostly sandstone boulders and outcrops, and they would occur in clusters and throughout, and I suppose, in Ireland. The distribution would be Cork, Kerry, Wicklow, Carlo, Donegal, Louth, Monaghan, and there are isolated examples elsewhere. For example, a very famous example of the Atlantic rock art would be the Bohay Stone and County Mayo.
Significant Sites: The Bohay Stone
00:06:10
Speaker
But that, as far as I'm aware, is the only example of the Atlantic rock art and in that area. Whereas the study area in the southwest, for example, in Kerry, the landscapes of Kilduff, Upper, Kuma, Saharan and Letter West in particular, have hundreds of examples of the Atlantic art in very, very close proximity.
00:06:30
Speaker
So the characteristics of the art and the I suppose the key characteristics and they do share some of the motifs with the megalithic art. So they'd be a cop mark would be one of the main motifs and a cop mark is a circular manmade depression. And that will be surrounded by a ring and or multiple rings and and sometimes radial grooves.
00:06:54
Speaker
And these would occur in different formats, in different distributions across the surfaces of these panels and in in the open air, in these rural landscapes. So you could have anything from a cup mark with two rings on on one panel to, you know, 20 cup marks with like, you know, I think there was an example in, I think is in a letter West where there's like, you know,
00:07:18
Speaker
like I think like nine or ten rings around it so you know and it does there is quite a you can see regional variation then as well within the different landscape clusters but it is it is very it's very exciting at type of art. This type of art is very reminiscent of something believe it or not throughout California.
00:07:41
Speaker
Can you believe it? Wow. And a woman who's the vice president of the California Rock Art Foundation, Donna Gillette, did her PhD on this kind of rock art. She has coined a new name for it. She calls it a PCN. And it has to do with this cup and ring sort of element. Now,
00:08:07
Speaker
This expression only occurs on, let's say, serpentine or greenstone kinds of rocks all along the coast of California. Oh, wow. And there's hundreds, probably thousands of examples, and they again are in profusion, some of them hundreds on boulders, maybe sometimes never a thousand, but hundreds. And what she hypothesized based on their distribution and some limited ethnographic information that they have something to do with female fertility.
00:08:57
Speaker
Okay, cool. That's really interesting. and I suppose what we do lack in the context of the Atlantic art in Ireland is the ethnographic information and the ethnographic context because and there are no, I suppose when you look at like, you know, global rock art, you have, for example, do you know the the paintings in, you know, for example, South Africa and Australia? Yeah, of course.
00:09:20
Speaker
You can see those really like those really really cool gen know motifs and you know they they actually like I suppose you can you can see those you can you can associate them with you know particular traditions or particular people where this is so abstract and it is prehistoric. in our It's so hard to kind of i suppose put any kind of you know, I supposed to make a definitive answer as to what it actually means. well Well, let me let me ask you this question. What stage
Challenges in Dating and Cultural Context
00:09:50
Speaker
of development in culture would you produce this? In other words, how many thousands of years ago and what was the subsistence settlement ah arrangement that was correlated with these cup and ring expressions?
00:10:08
Speaker
Okay, so that's really interesting because as well as the lack of ethnographic evidence and there's actually no figurative carvings either in the North Atlantic tradition, there is also, I suppose, there is a serious lack of chronological evidence as well because there's only been one excavation ever that took place in Ireland and it was in a site called Drummaril in County Monaghan. Dr. Blaise O'Connor completed that excavation as part of a PhD thesis in the year 2000s and that is the only to date the only excavation of a rock art site in Ireland and within that excavation they did discover some neolithic and you know some evidence of i suppose of the Neolithic and time period whereas previously I suppose people may have considered it you know later. They presumed that the the Passage Grave Act was earlier like 3300 BC and around the Newgrange era and then
00:11:02
Speaker
the North Atlantic type would be the Bronze Age, so like 2,500. Whereas I suppose that excavation and then, you know, other research, I suppose carried out by Joanna Valdez Tulay more recently kind of makes you think that, you know, it it don't date to an earlier year time period. And what time period would that be? It would be the Neolithic. And what is the date on that? and It would be like 3,300-ish BC.
00:11:30
Speaker
So about 5,000 years ago, correct? Correct. Very, very interesting. Now, do the lithology on these, is it always sandstone?
00:11:43
Speaker
It's not always sandstone. There are examples, I suppose, in Wicklow. I think the bedrock in the region would be granite. But in my study area, the area that I would be most familiar with is all sandstone. So it's in the southwest and it's all sandstone and a lot of like peaty pods, those soils. So that would be the, I suppose, the most used rock in that region for the art. Is there any other physical archaeological associations artifacts, sites, different elements that are intimately associated with these cup and ring expressions.
00:12:24
Speaker
I suppose you do have the Newgrange, the Megalithic Arch, so you would have the Coppin rings, they would appear in Newgrange and in La Cru. You would see those motifs, but they'd look, they'd be in, I suppose, a different style completely to the, the, the Atlantic rock, rock art ah type. But I suppose there's not, like, not that I can think of, and you know, to to that question, but that I suppose these very rural landscapes, there is rich archaeological records in these rural landscapes, you know, and there are other prehistoric monuments. There are examples of, you know, some carvings on stone circles which would come later than the Neolithic. So I suppose there are some examples, but not not to the extent of the I suppose of the actual North Atlantic rock art. And the Newgrange facility
00:13:19
Speaker
Is that not where there's a tremendous amount of white quartz exhibited? Yes. Now that's in the reconstruction, I suppose. there were So when they excavated it originally, they did find and that there was and the quartz. They did find evidence for the quartz. So then when they you know did the reconstruction, they did put white quartz around the outside. Well, in terms of the sandstone and the granite, that's rather interesting.
00:13:48
Speaker
And is there any, in comparative forage or theology, is there anything that seems to be akin to this that one might say could potentially even be a distant analog? I'm not sure. That's a really interesting question, but to be honest, I'm really unsure of that one.
00:14:14
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And this is ah is what why my mind works because I know that our friend, Donald Gillette, had the same same exact issues as yours. Really no ethnography at all.
00:14:30
Speaker
but looking at comparator world, ethnology, and also trying to wrap one's mind around what these particular features could have been. Now you have some working hypotheses about the function, meaning, or potential cultural context. Do you not Yeah, no, for sure. And there has been so many theories over the years on, you know, to explain these and these carvings. And I suppose the one that I would lean most towards would be and that they were boundary markers within prehistoric societies. And there have been there has been a lot of study done on like view shed analysis. Yeah, les context view shed analysis, correct?
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. That's it. And actually there was a and recent study done by Caitlin O'Neill on how to reconstruct paleo environments around these, and you know, around the view sheds, which which is a really interesting study. So I suppose there are a number of theories that you could say there was some theories put forward that it was associated with, and you know, a water cult. And that was actually put forward by, and in the I think it was one of the the archaeological, I can't think of the book now, but it was by John Sheehan, who's a professor at ah UCC. He basically and suggested that because the rock art in the southwest region, especially on the Yverau Peninsula in Kerry, where a lot of the study that I did
00:16:04
Speaker
was carried out, where a lot of the rocks are located, he suggested that there could be connection to a water cult because of the distribution along the tributaries of rivers. And if you look, for example, especially at the letter west landscape, all of the rock art are dotted around the streams and the rivers within the landscape. So that is a theory. There's the viewshed analysis, there's the boundary markers. So there are quite a number of them. No, no, I like it.
00:16:34
Speaker
yeah Let's leave it right there on the hinge of the mystery. okay We'll call that segment one. See you in the flip-flop, gang, and we'll continue this wondrous conversation. Welcome back, gang, to your Rock Art podcast, Only One in the World. And we welcome you to listen in with our friend Claire, who's talking about the rock art of Ireland.
00:17:03
Speaker
and this is the cup and rings. And absolutely fascinating. I was really unaware of this North Atlantic cup and ring tradition.
Technological Advances in Conservation
00:17:13
Speaker
Claire, you were just getting into discussions of some of the cutting edge state of technology that archeologists are now using to study this class, this grouping, this remarkable expression of rock art. Please continue.
00:17:33
Speaker
Okay, cool. Yeah, well, I suppose there's a lot of new technologies in recent years like that have been and employed to record the art. What I am most familiar with is photogrammetry and laser scanning. And I suppose that is such a huge thing and a huge development in terms of coming from a conservation point of view where my research was very much on how to conserve the art and how to record the art and maybe analyse the human and natural agencies that lead to the loss of art. So what was huge for my research was the implementation of photogrammetry and laser scanning because those non-invasive technologies actually allow
00:18:13
Speaker
you know the recording of the the surface of the panels and with like the laser scanning in particular you have an absolutely fantastic 3D model of the rock surface and there was a few cases where this model actually showcased further motifs than had been originally recorded say for example in the 50s and 60s and that was great because they had been I suppose they were eroded and affected by weathering and therefore you couldn't see them with the naked eye but the laser scanning technology really really helped bring them out and with the laser scanning in particular another fantastic thing about it is once you have the models or with photogrammetry once you have the models you can upload them to channels like like Sketchfab where they can be accessed and seen by you know people internationally which is just fantastic because when you think about it and especially here in Ireland weathering and erosion is such a huge
00:19:06
Speaker
you know it's such a threat to rock art you know with the phrase saw action and the constant rain and you know it's great to be able to record the art so at least you know you have the i suppose you have the in situ position of it you have the surface you know the motifs on the surface you have it recorded you have the coordinates So you know where it was. So for example, if that was to be it completely eroded or you know moved by farmers or destroyed accidentally, you would have you know you't understand the actual landscape setting of it. So if if you needed that then to to further understand the the context of of that. ah
00:19:42
Speaker
of that landscape region, you'd have it. So I'm a huge believer in and laser scanning and photogrammetry and other non-invasive technologies to assist in the recording of Rockart. I think it really does help. And I think there's been so many fantastic community led projects on that. And and especially the Scottish Rockart group have done an awful lot in in recent years on promoting that. Here in the States, we're using that you know somewhat extensively One of our board members for the California Rock Guard Foundation is on the cutting edge of such technology globally, worldwide. He gets retained. He ah comes out of Hollywood and he's doing the virtual reality work, the unbelievable stuff that he can recreate the actual three-dimensional environment with a headset.
00:20:36
Speaker
and you could sort of be there and experience that rock art. In a way, they've elevated it to such an incredible, sophisticated level. You can count the sand grains, you can turn your head and see the sky, and and it just, it's mind-blowing.
00:20:57
Speaker
And a gentleman who's a colleague of mine, and another colleague of mine, just finished the his master's degree at USC. And he studied the the hunting blinds in an area of basalt and looked at the landscape context the intervisibility of these particular features and the way to test hypotheses on whether indeed they could and should have been used in the hunting and slaying of bighorn sheep.
00:21:40
Speaker
And I see how you know such a level of sophistication could then be applied to your data set. Now you were just alluding on the break to to some of the hypotheses about the nature, the cultural context of these cup and ring boulders.
00:22:06
Speaker
Yes, for sure. And I suppose the context, as I mentioned earlier, it's so hard to kind of get a chronology and I suppose kind of put it into its rightful, you know, cultural context. But I suppose and the biggest thing with these prehistoric carvings and the Atlantic rock art style and is that they are, you know, in in terms of their distribution, it's still in very rural settings. And that is because now we have lost We have lost a number of them and due to land clearing and things like that. There are records that go back such a long time and in in Irish records that basically say you know some of them are actually blown up with dynamite. Some of them are removed. Farmers would remove them from the land, and you'd never actually fully understand the context of them. But I suppose what is really interesting is that the large clusters of them, the landscapes that have like hundreds of them, they're very much peaty pods of soil.
00:23:01
Speaker
you know they wouldn't be arable land they wouldn't you know be good for farming the land wouldn't be good for farming it wouldn't be somewhere where people would actually settle so those landscapes are virtually untouched unfortunately i suppose you do have the development uh read the letter west site which is my favorite site that i've ever visited it's just so magical they've actually recently put a water treatment plant there.
Theory: Irish Rock Art and Water Cult
00:23:23
Speaker
Now, ah it doesn't affect the actual rock art panels as they are protected under national legislation, but it does, I suppose, make the landscape not look as untouched as it did previously. yes so It certainly intrudes on the aesthetics, of course. Now, you said that one of the working hypotheses
00:23:44
Speaker
was regarding sort of the association but of these features, these cup and ring rock art sites with water. Is that correct? Yes, I did mention that. John Sheehan had written that in a ah publication about the Ivaraw Peninsula. So the Ivaraw Peninsula is arguably the, hosts arguably the highest concentration of rock art in Ireland. So the initial, and yeah yeah, the initial.
00:24:13
Speaker
Yeah, it's really cool because you have like Letter West and Kiehl Duff on one side of the peninsula and then you have Durinna Blaha and Durinna on the opposite side of the peninsula like basically straight across and Durinna Blaha and Durinna came to quite a significant fame I suppose through Emmanuel Anati in the 60s. He first recorded them with with Elizabeth Shee but um I suppose when you think about the Going back to your question, sorry, yes, John Sheehan did theorise that there was an association, a possible association to a water cult, and that was because of its distribution and very, very close to water sources. And that was another thing then that Avril Parcel, who did research on the region in the early 90s, she also set you know noted the the distribution all along the river valleys and and the tributaries of rivers, that's how they were distributed. So that is definitely an interesting theory.
00:25:05
Speaker
What would they mean? What would they imply? What would they mean by a water cult? I suppose what they would, my interpretation of that was that it would be, you know, I suppose, and connected to the water source and, you know, be a, I suppose, can i I suppose reflective of, and you know, the esteem that the communities would have had for the water source or something like that. That's my interpretation of it. I suppose there are other theories and in terms of you know boundary markers and there was another theory like in terms of what what Richard Bradley and Avril Parcel also ah echoed. ah is the fact that you know the and This is true in some cases but not in others but that the further you go up in some of the landscapes the more intricate I suppose
00:25:55
Speaker
the wow factor of the art. So, for example, you know, and in Duryna Blaha and in some parts of Letter West, the further up the mountain, and the further up the routeways through the landscape that you go, the more elaborate the art is and the more, you know, the more motifs are there, the different variations of the motifs. And there were theories put forward that that could be that the different classes within society would, I suppose,
00:26:22
Speaker
have access to the different styles of art. So it would be kind of aimed at different groups in society and the more elaborate stuff compared to the the planer and the planer. So that was definitely a theory that was put forward. When you say, you know, would you go up, is it higher in elevation? Is it more mountainous? Are they do they change in their geomorphological context?
00:26:49
Speaker
So yeah, so basically, yes, there are some cases now, that is not like true throughout the whole country, because then you have examples, like I mentioned earlier about the Bohay stone of Mayo, that's an extremely elaborate decorated surface. And that there is no other pieces of art around that. And that is, you know, that that's on its own. Whereas yes, in some cases, especially in Durian Oblaha, for example, one of the most famous rocks there, I think it's categorised as rock 10a,
00:27:14
Speaker
And that's up quite high in the landscape for like higher up in in elevation for sure. And that is arguably the most elaborate one there. Well, I do know I always step in and I'm constantly thinking about the theological implications of all this. As as we ah elevate and get closer to some sort of celestial, you know, or divine priest, you know, stratum, that would make perfect sense, wouldn't it?
00:27:43
Speaker
in terms of seeing those rocks become more and more complex, intricate, aesthetically pleasing, and you know part of that theology, wouldn't it or no?
00:27:59
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for sure. And the beauty of it, the beauty of this, both lack of context, lack of ethnographic evidence is the fact that, you know, there are so many theories that you can explore, you know, there's endless theories on this. And that is definitely one worth considering for sure. Now, I know your emphasis and passion is on protecting these features. Am I correct? You are indeed, yeah. And so I would assume that you had to come up with some rather creative strategies to deal with issues of cultural and natural impacts.
00:28:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was it was definitely it was so interesting. And it was so exciting when I was researching, researching this topic, and particularly like more different, different countries. For example, if you think about Australia, you think about South Africa, and you think about some other countries in Europe, they actually have walked out specific legislation within their you know heritage of legislation. because We have the National Monuments Act that protects any listed archaeological monument. and So that then if anyone was to hack like to damage an archaeological monument, they would be break you know that would be completely illegal.
Protection Challenges and Education Importance
00:29:14
Speaker
But that's only it the art is actually and if if the panel is actually reported, if it's recorded, if it's been you know if they're aware of it, and which is an issue to to an extent with the PT Bogland areas where the art is now you know being recorded in quite high volumes because the bog is starting to recede
00:29:34
Speaker
and that exposes some panels that have been covered for quite a while. so that's i suppose that could like It's great that there is you know such renewed interest and people recording the art in the in these regions because that definitely you know obviously then extends the protection of the illegal guidelines to that panel, but there are some, I suppose, that would pop up and people might not, you know, they might not be recorded. But I suppose in terms of protecting them, definitely with the National Monuments Act, that is fantastic. That does for any reported panel that does cover that. But I suppose the biggest thing to worry about is the natural agencies.
00:30:12
Speaker
like the weathering and erosion and stuff like that. and Also, a huge thing is promoting and an increasing awareness of this rock art type in Ireland. Because it's lesser known and because it's very rural, there are some people that you know wouldn't be aware of the significance of it. so In terms of like land clearing and farming and things like that, they might they might not be aware what treasures they have on their land.
00:30:37
Speaker
and So a huge thing is actually raising awareness. So as part of my research, and I did go out to communities, I went out to schools, ah tourist offices and things like that and spoke to them about the the art in the region and you know how significant it was and tried to put it in the wider national context as well as the wider global context. So that was that was great to kind of instill a sense of local pride in the region and in the monument type. And then another thing that I did then was create a rock art code.
00:31:06
Speaker
which was then later published by the Heritage Council here in Ireland. So that was basically, you know, 10 steps of how to, you know, visit a rock art site and how to engage with in a non, you know, detrimental way. that Fantastic. The rock art code. I love it. I've never heard of that before, but that's fantastic. our How wonderful, creative, wonderful and impactful. Well with that let's call that a segment and we'll see in the flip-flop for numero tres number three and we'll we'll go into some final thoughts. Welcome back gang to your rock art podcast on the rock art podcast platform.
00:32:00
Speaker
This is the 10th year and I want to congratulate Chris Webster for reaching his 10th anniversary. And we have with us a remarkable woman who's dedicating her life to the study of rock art, rock art protection and understanding.
00:32:18
Speaker
and the recognition and education, appreciation of rock art. I think that's what brings her chimes. And that certainly is becoming something that I'm interested in as well, that I've been called on to sort of consider and deal with here in the States. So,
00:32:45
Speaker
We don't probably have the intensity here in the states that you have in terms of the adversarial nature of the natural environment as a destructive element. But in Nigeria, they had a similar phenomenon and because of the rural nature and the unknown value of rock art to the local people.
00:33:14
Speaker
so I can hear what you're saying. Tell us a bit about the challenges you faced in education, appreciation, acknowledgement for the study of Ruckhart.
Discovering Rock Art in Rural Ireland
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, so I was quite fortunate. There are so many communities that are really eager to learn more and embrace it more and understand more about the archaeology in their communities. And I suppose then one of the biggest challenges that I faced, firstly, I'd say anyone who's ever tried to find rock art in Ireland can definitely attest to this, is actually locating the actual panels themselves.
00:33:55
Speaker
Sometimes but you'd see the log, you'd see the image of the rock that you're looking for, you'd go to the coordinates where you think it is, you'd go to the landscape. Because the landscapes are so vast and they're so rural and there's so many ah sandstone boulders in the middle of nowhere,
00:34:12
Speaker
that you think say you see one in the distance you'd be like that has to be it and you'd go around and you could spend hours there was like when i began my research i spent there was a two or three days where i went out to these landscapes for the first time and i couldn't find any rock art and i was like i must be going mad you know where is the art so that was definitely a challenge but then i suppose once you really get to know the landscape and the distribution and the areas that you're looking for you kind of you know you find them then but that was That's definitely a challenge in the very rural landscapes where you have maybe the coordinates that don't exactly match where they should be and things like that. But otherwise, another thing is a lot of the art is on private land. Much of it is on private land, so you do have to be very careful about
00:34:55
Speaker
you know asking permission asking landowner permission and making sure that you you know you're allowed to actually enter the land so that was another issue there were some landowners and it was great because some of them are so eager and they're like oh my god yeah the rock come on let's go have a look and you know that that was great but i suppose there were some then that were less less eager and less enthusiastic to let people onto the land and that's understandable i suppose especially when it comes to having if they have livestock and stuff like that in the fields sure So that is that is a challenge. But I suppose just hitting back on one of our points from earlier is that the recording of the panels, you know, once you have the recording, they're accessible to everybody. So you don't have to bother, you know, somebody and go on to their land. Well, I mean, obviously, it's nice to see the real thing, but to actually research it and maybe understand it in in the the from a motif and context point of view, you're you're you obviously you know, yeah.
00:35:50
Speaker
It's interesting you talk to someone like you because you have that enthusiasm that I have for the study of rock art. And in the United States, rock art is really not perceived in the same way it is outside of the US.
00:36:13
Speaker
It's a, I call it a, you know, an ugly stepchild and because they have a flavor of feeling that this particular data set is not as informative, valuable or insightful as conventional archaeology. Now I would beg to differ because I think Our study of rock art produces some of the most endlessly engaging and unbelievably interesting studies that one can ever have on the face of the planet. And I think you would agree, no?
00:36:59
Speaker
Oh my God, I totally agree. Yeah, for sure, Alan, I'm totally on board with that. And I would totally agree. And even within the context of rock art in Ireland, like, much everyone is so obsessed with the megalithic art, whereas this art then is, as I said, much lesser known and, you know, less, you know, there's less engagement and less, you know, acknowledgement of it at the moment. No, but I totally agree. I would definitely agree with you there.
00:37:25
Speaker
There was a kind of rock art that was not recognized until relatively recently in California in the Great Basin, the desert west, a style of rock art that was completely overlooked. Can you imagine? Oh my God. Yeah. Wow. And some people call it nummic scratched or Great Basin scratched.
00:37:52
Speaker
And it appears to be a kind of rock art that was abstract with very, very thin lines created either in association or superimposed over.
00:38:11
Speaker
more representational or more physically visible rock art. And what's interesting about that kind of rock art is the more it's been studied, the more ah scientists believe that it originated with women and it was a female generated style of rock art. So how would you couch sort of your rock art and your studies of the cup and ring in this value system of rock art? Because I've had to face that myself, they would go, Alan,
00:39:02
Speaker
It's only rock art. Oh, man. so that's so hard here see So in other words, you can say whatever you want, because we'll never know. I i again ah would not agree with that precept, please.
00:39:20
Speaker
No, for sure. Alan, I mean, obviously I'm with you in that corner in terms of I hate when people say that. Look, sure. What about the, you know, what about the passage graves or the, you know, stone circle? or you Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:35
Speaker
Rockart definitely deserves to be up there you know in its rightful place and within the archaeological record. And I suppose what is so interesting, Rockart and its different forms, that is really interesting. But I suppose and the North Atlantic type, it is it is garnering more attention. But it would be really nice to see it kind of, I mean, we have to obviously acknowledge that it's never going to be like people aren't going to, you know, we're not going to get everybody you know, wanting to visit Ireland, you know, that are going to go to Newgrange and places like that, they're not going to want to be like, actually, do you know what? Now, I won't go to Newgrange. I'll just go and look at the North Atlantic out that that won't happen, like in the in the droves like there is to the passage grave cemeteries. But that's kind of good, I think, in a way. So, you know, in terms of concept from a conservation point of view, but just to even have it there as a OK, we can't tell you exactly
00:40:27
Speaker
what the chronology is or what the meaning is, but it is obviously something of huge significance within the archaeological record and therefore deserves to be protected and promoted and studied further to kind of get that understanding. And people love a mystery, don't they? They do, Alan, they do. So by way of ah signing out, what would you want to tell our listeners from all over the world?
Community Engagement and Cultural Significance
00:40:57
Speaker
about your studies and what you would think, what you'd want them to know or do or what's it to take away from this hour. I think the takeaway is really that there is in Ireland in terms of North Atlantic rock art, the numbers of North Atlantic rock art panels are slowly growing and new panels are being recorded as a result of the receding blanket peat and bugs. So, you know, for Irish listeners, I suppose what would be really, really important is, you know, if you do see a piece of rock art or what you think is rock art, make sure, you know, you report it, you know, don't obviously like
00:41:32
Speaker
but try to trace it or you know interact with the panel surface or anything like that reported to the national monument service and just to make sure that it is listed and therefore you know does have legal protection and you know record the art it'd be great to see more you know communities and i was engaging with with archaeology in general and especially rock art you know to to make it accessible to everyone so somebody you know sitting in california can click on the you know onto the internet and see panels from from ireland you know it'd be great too so you can do a full study of of irish rock art from from sunny california that'd be that'd be the dream
00:42:10
Speaker
anywhere in the world. yeah exactly Yeah. I love it. But with that, I think we'll sign off. And this was a fabulous interlude. And I loved meeting you and talking with you. And I could just feel it and, you know, embrace your passion for your research, your study, and the ah education and protection of rock art in general.
00:42:39
Speaker
And rock art is a fabulous thing to be involved in. It's endlessly engaging and just can't say enough good stuff about it, right? For sure. Oh, no, definitely. Yeah. In fact, rock art rocks. It does. See you in the flip flop, gang. Take care.
00:43:11
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Rock Art Podcast with Dr. Alan Garfinkel and Chris Webster. Find show notes and contact information at www.arcpodnet dot.com forward slash rock art. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing this podcast with your family and friends.
00:43:43
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Culturo Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.