Transcript
Speaker: You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Hello out there in archaeology podcast land. This is Dr. Alan Garfinkel. I'm the president and founder of the California Rock Art Foundation. And what we do is we identify, evaluate, manage, and conserve rock art both in Alta, California and in Baja, California.
Speaker: We conduct field trips, we have trainings, exercise, we do research, and in every way possible we try to preserve, protect, and coordinate treasures of Alta and Baja California rock art, of which there are many, and diverse. We also work closely with Native Americans and partner with them to recognize and protect sacred sites.
Speaker: So for more info about the fabulous California Rock Art Foundation, you can go to carockart .org. Also, i'm I'm open to give me a call, 805 -312 -2261. We would welcome sponsorship or underwriting, ah helping us to defray the costs of our podcasts, and also membership in California Rock Art Foundation, and of course, donations since we are a 501c3 nonprofit scientific and educational corporation. God bless everyone out there in podcast land.
Speaker: You're listening to the Rock Art Podcast. Join us every week for fascinating tales of rock art, adventure, and archaeology. Find our contact info in the show notes and send us your suggestions.
Speaker: Well, welcome to episode 132, 132 of the Rock Guard Podcast. This is your host, Dr. Alan Garfinkel, and we have a a thrilling, thrilling development.
Speaker: We're hearing from a gentleman who has been studying rock art in Africa, a continent that we haven't incorporated into our journey into the study of rock art. He is one of those investigators, ah internationally, you know, recognized, you know, expert, a scholar on rock art and been recognized as such. And he also appears on the Bradshaw Foundation. He ah received an award from Aurora for his lifetime achievements.
Speaker: And his name is Salisu Abinu. Salisu, can you hear me? I can hear you, Dr. Allen. I can hear you. And he is coming to us from Africa, from Nigeria. Are you not? Yes, I'm coming from Nigeria, from northern part of Nigeria.
Speaker: That is absolutely amazing. This is the first time in in three years you've had anyone at all from your continent on the globe. We've had people from many other parts of the globe, but never from Africa. So we usually kick this off, Salisa, with an autobiographical portrait of what's your background and how did you get involved with the study of rock art? Thank you very much, Dr. Allen. Of course, I can say this is a great pleasure for me.
Speaker: know um very much happy to have me in this podcast. Thank you. And it's quite interesting to, you know, interact with a personality like you, that Alan Garfinkel, whom I've been following for a very long period of time. You know, we are academia, I have, you know, read most of your, you know, your publications, you know,
Speaker: Thank you, Soliso. I'm absolutely honored. I'm honored to have you. I forgot to tell you that Soliso is a lifetime member also of the California Rock Art Foundation and nature bi a huge advocate for rock art preservation and conservation. Am I correct, Soliso? Thank you. Yes. You know, my background on the rock art started around 2012 when I first, you know,
Speaker: the Nigerian national commission for national commission for you know monuments you know created bring them to the rock art and interpretation center that was in tutorial and throughout so you know in northern part of Nigeria in the whole of Nigeria we have you know in the northern part of Nigeria will be dominant to me you know we have the rock fainting while in the southern part of Nigeria we have monoliths that is around Alabama when you look at the geography of the county. So yeah when the when the National Commission Commission created national work and bo to work at the interpretation center and was employed there,
Speaker: as an interpretive protection officer. My role is to bring off all initiative, all plans, all activities aimed at preserving, protecting the rock fainting site, you know, the forbidden around like geography. So we started the job when we come to discover that know most of the people, the indigenous living around the site, doesn't have much understanding or awareness about how to preserve, how to protect this ancient fainting in this part of the world. So I now started working with the community, traditional rulers, the faithful, the youth, all genders,
Speaker: who are living around the area, trying to create awareness about the importance of this heritage, the value attached with this fainting. lockbox deposits and all other antiquities found within those fainting sites. These initiatives you know continue to, know you know, a kind of people started to appreciate what we are doing and started to understand the importance of this site, which, you know, a kind of youth involvement, traditionalist involvement, you know, awareness and moving up to politicians
Speaker: They are trying to inform them the importance of coming to Europe to create a policy towards protecting this important site. And one of the important things that have me in this job is when I first discovered California Rock Art Foundation. When I first discovered California Rock Art Foundation via Facebook page, I now attempt to get connected You know, there were people in the platforms, people like this, Alan Durbin Thales, Kristin Yeoman, Nicholas Somes, a lot of people that we chat on, I started first seeing some of the images, work from the images from this part of the world, sharing it, you know, a lot of people started appreciating, scholars started appreciating what I am doing, sharing some of their publication,
Speaker: I chose that I was able to learn a lot, to know much about it. Some scholars had to send some books to me, you know, from Sunday Rock Art, which helped me a lot to, you know, learn a lot about this ancient painting depicted in this paper. And this helped me greatly to continue to, you know, create awareness about this.
Speaker: ancient fenty depicted in the start of this. I'll continue to get encouraged by many scholars around the world, which some have even had to encourage me to start making publications about this fenty. And trying to encourage me to create partnership with some international organizations who would support me support what we are doing so as to have a kind of holistic blueprint or kind of holistic stance on how to preserve and conserve this speech ancient painting in this part of the world. This is a little I can see and this you know continue to you know you know a kind of how can I say it is just like a kind of you know
Speaker: increased my effort, increased my interest, increased my initiating dedication to what ensuring that these ancient paintings were fully preserved, fully conserved to an effort that would have to invite trust for African rock art, trust for African rock art in Nairobi, Kenya, to one of their stops, Mr. Terrelating, whom I contacted him which we collaborate with him and more develop a kind of proposal to the United States Embassy here, ambassadors fund for contemporary preservation, whom they have contributed some amount on money while of the preservation, recommendation, preservation and conservation with the help of the community and other places to
Speaker: as we continue i'll continue to share more about my work in this part of the world. Welcome back to the second segment of The Rock Art Podcast, episode 132. We are blessed and honored to have Soliso Amino live from Nigeria. And he's he's one of the most prominent researchers in that area, emphasizing protection and conservation of the Nigerian rock art record. Solisu, tell us a bit about how you got involved in this particular niche and what you've learned about the rock art in terms of the kind of rock art, its representation, and what we might think the authors and function might be. Thank you very much. It's Alan Geffenkiel. Rock art, I developed a passion for rock art, looking at
Speaker: the ancient, you know, depiction. Rokak in northern part of Nigeria,
Speaker: you find out that where depicted, most of the depiction inside the caves, you know, contains in a depiction of cartels, cartels, you know, human representations, anthropomorphic human representations,
Speaker: You know, cutters in some sites, you find animals like more of zebras. But more of cattle representations than most of other sites found in this part of the regions are more of cattle representations. And these people were very proactive, very ingenious in trying to depict all this painting, more of hiding them under the rock arc funnel inside the rock shell test. We have about 15 sites.
Speaker: northern part of Nigeria, confridings of both of Jigao State and in Shira, part of Botee State, where this rock fountain is located.
Speaker: And one interesting thing is rock art is so far. Rock art is everything. In rock art, you learn a lot of things. The defictions, not only the defictions, but how our ancestors were created you know to connect this interesting market. you know ah you know This story about our lives, the cathets, the animals in this part of the world.
Speaker: Also, on the side, you find that there is more of a human and animal representation. and There are some sites where the depictions is more of animals and humans. So there are interesting things, there are a lot of interesting, you know, depictions in these sites. And, you know, when you first look at these sites, one thing that will interest you is the creative aspect of it, the ingenuity.
Speaker: You know, the power of rock art, when you look at how this image is where, you know, where they should take inside the skips. And the places, the choice of place where these are ancestors, because these are the messages they let, you know. It's such that there is a lot of information they pose to investigate, you know, to continue to research, you know, about, you know, the color,
Speaker: they use in detecting these paintings. Why do they detect these paintings? At what particular time they teach paintings? This rock painting depiction is more of an ancestor's tradition. And there are a lot of things that, you know, people from different capacities and to come and speak it and, you know, after shakes and more of making them interested to research on this aspect of it. So ROKAT in modern part is something that the people are really appreciating it. People are valuing the place. Most of the rough site are inside the town. People used to enter site nobody put the site. site or going to the site to do some kind of scratch it or
Speaker: people value it, respect it and even accept it as part of their tradition, as part of their lives, as part of their day -to -day activities. So the work we are doing to also inculcate the passion of rock art in the mindset of our children is such that Students from all walks of life, from this is the grandmother school of the university, students from geography, anthropology, sociology, archaeology, used to come to this site and you know, convolve the astronauts.
Speaker: If it goes to an extent, we have to partner with Amalibela University, they are the partner of Archaeology, and the unique College University of Canvaj's partner of history, the one who conducted a research on this part of it, and a lot of students used to come here to do their final research, which at the end of one project we had with Trust for Africa Rock Arts, where we at the final coach of the podium. We have to do a kind of travel exhibition throughout the county from selected museums where peaks and we execute. This ancient painting didn't really work to London museums. You'll find an ideal rock art
Speaker: both the southern part and northern part were even excavated in another area we have a and for contact reservations support where we do this project in Nigeria. So we really did, you know, a massive move, a great work in promoting, in making people appreciate and understand the importance of rock art, you know, as of our tradition, as part of our culture. And it's something that we continue to appreciate. And this is what, you know, is making, like some universities, to even make it part of their, finally a program to bring some of their students to all these sites that are
Speaker: We take them to all these sites to show an extremely to appreciate it. So now look at this part and of our life and there is more we can say we cannot do with our work.
Speaker: So Salisu, it's that that's all very interesting. I can connect with your passion and your understanding and motivation. You had mentioned that much of the rock art is centered on the depiction of cattle or animals that are have very long horns. And that's the same element, the long horned element, the the horns and antlers of these larger arteodactyls are throughout the world depicted in prominent and predominant in the rock art. How do you how do you understand that in Nigeria? Yes. Some of the cuttings depicted in the rock art site
Speaker: where no longer you can no longer find them. Most of the cuttings you can no longer find them, because most of them are long -haul cuttings. Were these wild or domesticated cattle? They are domesticated. They are domesticated cuttings, more of a hunter. You know here, we have hadders.
Speaker: hardest in this part of the place most of the indigence the people are hardest people who used to rear animals and these kind of animals i no longer are there so there are some instances whereby some people even some maybe you can call it a mix some even attempt to worship themselves they even regarded themselves no more or no spiritual kind of maybe beliefs they are beliefs they have the kind of belief yeah some site where you can
Speaker: know from this hardest, you know, used to create in the night. Is there a religious ah ceremonial life surrounding cattle in Nigeria? In the first, this instance is based for now, you know, was because of the advent of Islamic religions. Right. It's not hardly a little bit. There are some ritual aspects of it where, in some sites, this hardest used to go to the site and scratch this
Speaker: hunting pigments. When you scratch it, you used to fire it inside water and give it to the cathets or fertility or more fertility. There are some sites with hags, these are with events in instance as well like these haddads used to creep in the night and they used to scratch some of these hunting remains and caught inside water and give it to the haddads in anticipation for or more or fascinating tv
Speaker: so know there is element of ritual aspect as element or religious has so whatever where you can county in the fast de motor millions now i went living most of these people no upon these traditions and methods. How do you perceive the function, the metaphor, the communication, the meaning of the cattle images in the rock art? What are they trying to tell us? You know, at that time, these ancient peoples, you know, just like what I say in the part, they You know, they are trying to tell us their stories. They are very hard -working people.
Speaker: It means the pollution or the fillets where we went and defeated this enemies. And
Speaker: This site, the way you move from one site on our side basic one state like thousand state butpu have some look but shia we on other site can easy and destin how this he have was the land move one next to another and the different mega migration aspect and the different countries in this part of the region and different countries in this part of the region. Some are small horn, some are long horn, short horn and small horn.
Speaker: So Rockguard, in part, was an identification of the ethnicity of the people, their race, their language, and their relationship to the land? Am I correct? Thank you. You are correct now. It's not the relation of the land and the Tākaukulaki land, because there is this interponation, you know, and if you listen with you,
Speaker: the people in Alapat of the land and and soul and who is associated with the rock art side, you know, it tells all that, you know, this is the in the first, you know, the connection of the people.
Speaker: the site, the connection with the people, the land, the connection with the people, to some of the activities around Asia. So, it's a really, really interesting thing to learn a lot. So, Esa, what is the oldest rockguard that has been dated or hypothesized in terms of its age? In Nigeria up to now, we have not dated our rockguard site. Okay, no dates. Got it. No dates.
Speaker: Is there evidence for rock art that's older than the depiction of cattle? You know, I cannot say precisely because, you know, we have to involve, you know, the fact of archaeology that I work at and the case back in the home and so some scholars from archaeology department. um Sure. We have, you know, invited them to come. They have even come and even, you know, dug some and some some of the stones found yeah yeah i do understand in an attempt to try to ascertain the date associated with the depiction of the dead in front of the site. So this work is still important.
Speaker: This is a good place to stop, and let's let's take a break here, and then we'll come back. And I want to ah sort of close off this third segment with what you want the world to know about the Nigerian rock art, your passion to conserve it and understand it and protect it. See you in the flip -flop, gang. Welcome back, gang, to the 132nd Rock Art Podcast with Salisu Amino from Nigeria and the ah great continent of Africa. Silesu, I want to know ah what's your motivation what and what should you tell the world about the study of Nigerian, the protection and conservation of rock art that they need to know at this point?
Speaker: that's so important, please. Thank you very much, Dr. Allen. This is a you know a very big and a very wide question that's caught across the spectrum of the needs for Nigerians, not only me Nigerians, but all of us have rights to come to the aid of National Commission for Museums, to assist the National Commission for Museums, to assist the community living around the site, to ensure that, you know, this site can preserve, up -and -down the posterity for our children, you know, to come and see the work of our ancestors. And this is The reason why, one of the major reasons why I am back on this journey is, after it's one book I read, I know I research on one scholar,
Speaker: that have done a great job in discovering most of our site. And from that, I now say, let me continue from where he lives. And now, you know, start thinking, start working.
Speaker: you know connecting with some profession around the world and call the county to see that how we can discover all these sites, identify all these sites, document all these sites, talk to the community, working with the community, the school scholars,
Speaker: work in authorities, anthropologists, sociologists, and fine arts to see how we can come up, you know, how we can develop a policy, how we can partner with the government officials, how we can partner with the communities, you know, how we can create a value, you know, with this work actively.
Speaker: so This continues to me to continue to connect with different people, from different products, from different directions to home, and see how we can work together to preserve it and control it. And this is one of the important things that makes me to to write a book called Ancient Workout of Northern Merida, which is yet to be published. It's my time what I have submitted to my permission. I'm working for him to publish it. the
Speaker: the property of the site, the mapping of the site, the mix associated with the site, the oral tradition associated with the site, the community, participation throughout the reservation of the site. And to an ill -esteem, a relationship, another product, one idea of a virtual tour, where I invite this, you know, an artist from Colombia, whom we came to my data, we looked it out in, where we went to all the site, we document all the site virtually. The footage is ongoing because of funding will stop.
Speaker: And there are also, you know, a kind of project we do together with trust for Africa roca whereby quant for it byro as and a rock from Cross River to Gigaose. In Cross River we have monolith.
Speaker: where they are looking at it, and in the north we have rock painting sites, you know, pictographs, where we documented all these sites together, we trust with the sword of ambassador for collaboration, and we also did, you know, a kind of family exhibition. Throughout the county, we picked some important regions where we went there and executed. We invited people, different dignitaries, embassies, you know, students, you know, communities that we invited them to addition where to come and see,
Speaker: to come and see our heritage, to come and see the work of our ancestors and learn the story about associative rock paintings. Rock painting is like, you know, rock art is everything. It tells a lot of things. You know, when you look at rock art, when you go to the site, you learn a lot of things.
Speaker: creating work at, creativity, fashion, a lot of things, education, you know many things associated with work at, there are things that one has to really appreciate with work at. And this also will continue with the support of the community custodians because they are there.
Speaker: living around the site, ensuring that organizations no did not touch on this site, so that people would not go and erect somebody around this site. and some for dis site no short So I think the message you're communicating, Silesu, is that you've tried to educate the Nigerian people that this is their ancestors, these are the kinship, this is the heritage, this is the history that they're preserving, and this is the value of understanding and appreciating the hundreds if not thousands of years of culture that preceded them, and it gives them a perspective on their lives, but it also allows them to acknowledge, revere, and appreciate
Speaker: their heritage, correct? Yes, sir. Interesting. This is the work we are doing, you know. Yes. Because, you know, we have to create awareness, we have to promote this understanding, you know, it's by promoting this understanding, when we now have the support of the community to have that liberation of sight, you know, to have inculcating some of these values into, you know, protocols, into our protocols. Right. From other schools, you know, universities, you know, for instance, like in Amarillo University there, you know, you have a family division, you know, and the students used to go there, they are even some, some schoolers who are teacher work. class So, so Lisa, let me, let me sort of interject something. I think it would mean a lot to our listenership on the podcast.
Speaker: To have you close out with a prayer or with a, you know, some sort of empowering words in your native language.
Speaker: rook i lao let me look i one avenueify the la a long look soa and the ka the mu because example If you you you
Speaker: yeah When I was a child, I was able to find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a place where I could find a So translate that into English now. Look at the message and look at is very powerful. We need to take our children to this site. We need to go and appreciate those ancestors. The history they left, the messages they made on this work. The message is very powerful because in the message there is our tradition, there is our culture, there is our new fashion, there is creativity, there is a lot of things place
Speaker: left for us to disappear, to understand, to continue to investigate for the benefit of the people of the Christianity. So there is need for a collective work from all of us, both the traditional world, the community of historians, the students, government officials, to come together and ensure that we preserve, we conserve this This is where this Asian people were depicted, for the benefit of all. We care about our heritage. We care about our people. We care about the those that have come before us. This is our history. This is our... This is this is our inheritance. Thank you very much. Beautiful. I like it. Salisu, you are fabulous.
Speaker: And I so appreciate your perspective. And for all the ah those listening, see you in the flip flop, gang. Thanks for listening.
Speaker: Thanks for listening to the Rock Art Podcast with Dr. Alan Garfinkel and Chris Webster. Find show notes and contact information at www .arcpodnet dot .com forward slash rock art. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing this podcast with your family and friends.
Speaker: This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at w www .archpodnet .com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork .com.
