Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Analyzing Rock Art with Tony Prekis - Ep 125
484 Plays6 months ago
On today’s episode Alan brings on Tony Prekis to analyze a rock art panel associated with the Freemont Cultural traditions.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/rockart/125
Contact
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store
Affiliates and Sponsors
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Rock Art Conservation
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. Hello out there in archaeology podcast land. This is Dr. Alan Garfinkel. I'm the president and founder of the California Rock Art Foundation. And what we do is we identify, evaluate, manage, and conserve rock art both in Alta, California and in Baja, California. We conduct field trips, we have trainings, exercise, we do research, and in every way possible we try to preserve, protect, and coordinate treasures of Alta and Baja California rock art, of which there are many, and diverse. We also work closely with Native Americans and partner with them to recognize and protect sacred sites. So for more info about the fabulous California Rock Art Foundation, you can go to carockart.org
00:00:48
Speaker
Also, i'm I'm open to give me a call, 805-312-2261. We would welcome sponsorship or underwriting, ah helping us to defray the costs of our podcasts, and also membership in California Rock Art Foundation, and of course, donations since we are a 501c3 nonprofit scientific and educational corporation. God bless everyone out there in podcast land.
Petroglyph Exploration with Tony Prikas
00:01:16
Speaker
You're listening to The Rock Art Podcast. Join us every week for fascinating tales of rock art, adventure, and archaeology. Find our contact info in the show notes and send us your suggestions.
00:01:33
Speaker
Hello out there in archaeology podcast land. This is your host, Dr. Alan Garfinkel, for episode 125. We're blessed and honored to have Tony Prikas all the way from Albuquerque, New Mexico, talking about the ah remarkable petroglyphs that he has been associated with for quite a while. and quite an elaborate set of imagery. Tony, are you with us? Thank you, Alan. Yes, I am. So Tony, we usually open up the first segment and we let people talk about kind of who they are and their background and why the heck they have an interest in rock art. So you hail from
00:02:17
Speaker
The East Coast originally, no? Originally, yes. I moved to New Mexico in 1992. Okay. And started to explore the state and took some classes at UNM and community college, archeology and anthropology classes and ah cultural studies courses and just became more interested and started hiking out and exploring. Sounds like you're ah you're a yeah passionately and enthusiastically interested in both the anthropology, archeology, and rock art. Now, you have you have some rock art right right nearby, don't you? I'm right on the border of the National Monument, the Petroglyph National Monument. It's down the block. What's that all about? What is Petroglyph National Monument for those that don't know? It's in New Mexico, correct? Yes. It's in Albuquerque. It's actually within the city, west of the Rio Grande. Okay. But there's an escarpment, assault escarpment, that's 14 miles long. Okay. The stretch of the west side of Albuquerque. And ah there's petroglyphs on the patinaed basalt. I see. All along the escarpment. I'm near Rincanada Canyon, where I was also a dulcent hiking along
Cultural Context of Albuquerque Petroglyphs
00:03:38
Speaker
the trail. and You're a docent there, huh? Yeah. Yes.
00:03:44
Speaker
So about how many images of of rock art are there? you You sent me a few and I was absolutely overwhelmed by the by the elaborate nature and the number of images just on one little panel. Oh, the panels that I had emailed you are mostly the Rio Porco. Those are actually sandstones. okay I emailed Petroglyph for Chris's sake because Chris had mentioned in the past episode that he yeah was wondering about a certain, if there were any, mastodon type of petroglyphs around. yes i heard that I emailed him a panel that I just recently came across. ah
00:04:28
Speaker
Obviously, it's not that old, but it does resemble that. Most of my petroglyphs that I've forwarded to you come from the Rio Porco Basin on the Rio Porco Valley. It's about 30 miles northwest of Albuquerque as the crow flies, but about 92 miles or so going around the various but different properties and reservations. What are the historic native people that live there today? which What groups are there? Are they the Navajo? Are they the Pueblo? What groups are there? Yeah, this Rio-Porco Valley is surrounded by the Zia Pueblo and the Henness Pueblo, okay along with the Navajo Reservation. that's
00:05:16
Speaker
kind of centered. It's very close to Guadalupe ruin okay or ruins. So what you've got there is a whole group of Pueblo Indians and also that are agriculturalists, correct? And a couple of different linguistic groups because I know the Navajo are recent, you know, migrants into that area. Correct. Although they're Athabaskan. Right. But their religious lore and their imagery is damn close to the Pueblos, and and a lot of what I see there you know bespeaks the very rich and complex cosmology of the Pueblo Indians. Would you agree? Yes, yes. They're they're intertwined at this point, yeah historically.
00:06:04
Speaker
Right. But yeah also prior to the Guadalupe, did you know that the Guadalupe ruin I spoke of, it's a Mesopotamian. It's actually the easternmost Chacoan outlier. Oh, wow. It's around four miles from these petroglyphs. So, okay. We were looking at is some sort of influence there as well. That Pueblo on top of the ruin has a 39 room. Right. Yeah. And what they've learned more and more about Chaco is that it it was just ah an amazing center you know sort of mini civilization with roads and expressions and tremendous amounts of architecture and just a mini civilization was going on there. and It was a centerpiece. A very elaborate and
00:06:55
Speaker
religiously yeah complex, and we've got the archaeoastronomy there and everything else happening. It's a ah cosmological and very sophisticated culture. yeah Chaco is amazing. right and that's That's interesting to have that in that particular expression. so right Why did you gravitate to Native American studies and archaeology and
Spiritual Connection to Rock Art
00:07:24
Speaker
rock art? it's I was thinking about this, it was just very interesting and spiritual and um it just became part of my my whole experience on hiking and but you're releasing stress and you you're in the right state of mind and you come across a petroglyph and you're just, it's it's just a zen type of moment.
00:07:52
Speaker
And yes, yeah you have to be your right state of mind to that to really view these petroglyphs. So you really see it as sort of a whole ah entanglement where you hike and you can see and enjoy and also discover. Yeah, it's almost a reward in itself. So it sounds like it's almost a ah religious or spiritual experience, correct? yeah Yes, exactly. It's almost a reward. You found it. You made it. You're here. This is for you. You know what this brings you back to? It's funny, Tony. Just when you mentioned that. So, as a little baby archaeologist, right?
00:08:31
Speaker
When I was a teenager, I'm going to be turning 72 here in July, but when I was in my teens, one of my first jobs was with the California desert planning staff. right out of Riverside. And we had the job of documenting the entire California desert and finding out where the most important cultural resources were, including rock art. Can you imagine? The entire California desert. Not a monumental town. And out in the West, of course, most of it is owned by the government, the Bureau of Land Management.
00:09:10
Speaker
So we had freeform, drove around, you know, found this place, found that place and heard about this thing. So, and I was, I was a novice. I was just, you know, I had no background at all, but I, was they drove me out there and we went to this ah basalt flow and, you know, we're roaming around looking for stuff and trying to find anything. And literally, behind me, we found a brand new petroglyph site, and it blew my mind. I was literally inside the site, almost on top of it, when I turn around and I'm face to face with this, you know, very elaborate and beautiful glyph. And it just blew me away. It it just shocked the hell out of me. And so you reminded me of that experience.
00:10:02
Speaker
It found me and I found it. so but let's ah Let's stop it there. That'll be the first segment. and We'll butll get into some of the details of some of the panels and and ah maybe try to figure some of this out. See you on the flip-flop. Welcome back, gang. This is your host, Dr. Alan Garfinkel, for the second segment. of Episode 125.
Understanding Spiral Petroglyphs
00:10:27
Speaker
And we have Tony Prikas from New Mexico talking about talking about some of these wild rock art panels that he sent me, and I was a bit overwhelmed by them. So I'm going to take a simple one here and look at it. So let's look at that first one here.
00:10:45
Speaker
Tony, okay that one that I talked to you about, where is where is that one from? Tell me what you think you know about that panel. So this is a fringe figure with the adder and pose, as you say. To the right of it is a type of bird. Are we talking about that one? The only thing that I see on this panel are those two, like, twisty... Oh, the spirals? un what The spirals, yes. Oh, OK. I tried to take the simple panel to start, because I know that you did get me started. If you get me started, I could probably talk for hours on this. Yes. What you can see over here is that these double spirals, as I call them, are kind of inset with the boulder onto to the left side of it, kind of jutting out.
00:11:41
Speaker
So they are ah susceptible to shadow. Ah! and In that area of the Rio Parco Valley, Native Americans have their ceremonies on the equinoxes and the solstices, and that area is closed. for about a week's time, a little less than a week, and those times correspond to the equinoxes and solstices. And you're saying that these particular unwinding and winding spirals may be solstice or equinox markers. That is absolutely fabulous. So let's let's let's talk about this for a little bit. So I guess the kind the conventional model, conventional, meaning
00:12:23
Speaker
you know sort of There was a decades and decades of argument back and forth in rock art literature trying to say or insist that the artisans of rock art were exclusively shamans, medicine persons, and that may be the case. I don't don't have a problem with that. But they were trying to also say that that the imagery itself was sort of commemorating altered states of consciousness using ah either p psychotropic plants or other ethnogens, as they call them, to ah basically meet the um divine or meet the the otherworldly and the world of the supernatural enter into it, and that these would be commemorations of visions.
00:13:12
Speaker
and That may be the case, but I think there's perhaps sometimes a simpler, maybe not simpler, it's not but sometimes another way of thinking about this. I think that rock art is ah what they call polysemic. or full of compound metaphors, and that when you're looking at these images, you have to think about them at many, many levels simultaneously. Would you agree with that, Tony? The spirals, absolutely. The spirals have so many different meanings, whether it be a pool of water, a spring, migration glyphs, and of course,
00:13:53
Speaker
in this case, maybe something else. Right. Now, the the way I define these spirals, or these concentric circles, And this is what I've used in the literature. There's a gentleman that I have as a colleague that I've found. I mentioned this to you on our phone call. His name is Bernie Jones, and he actually spent years and years and years ah in tutelage himself becoming a shaman with ah some of the the Native Americans themselves.
00:14:24
Speaker
And he stopped that tutelage because he got scared. he it It became too powerful and too supernatural for his tastes and felt that he really couldn't continue in this particular ah scholarly way because it was too powerful. So with that said, when he has has defined or identified these these spirals or concentric circles or these portal-like elements, he he says that they they define or they identify these these places, these nexuses, these particular windows into the supernatural. These are places that are powerful and they're marked as such
00:15:12
Speaker
And these are the places where one can enter into the supernatural realm. Places, their envelopes or connections or particular tethers to other worlds. am i how um How am I doing? Does that make sense?
Sun Ceremonies in Native Traditions
00:15:27
Speaker
I have heard that that they they are portals as well. Right. Now, the reason I say that is they're marked in that way because even if this was a way to do the archaeoastronomy or the particular connection of the light dagger against those images on the equinox of a solstice, that is considered to be a powerful supernatural experience and one that is marked with almost a, how would you put this,
00:15:58
Speaker
it's It's as though you are re-experiencing the initiation of the world. How's that? It's a it's a phenomenon, ah an experience, ah ah a ritual, a ceremony, where you're capturing the the cosmic connections, the cosmic ambivalence, the revitalization, the transmogrification of the universe. So in other words, this is ah This is a way with many different native groups where they talk about the fire ceremony or the re-inauguration or the the ceremony where the world stops for a minute and then we must recharge the universe so it can continue
00:16:50
Speaker
in this realm. Does that make any sense? And it's powerful, very powerful stuff. But I can explain it a little bit. Those sound like a whole bunch of words, but I had the opportunity to really experience one of those sites that we're talking about. Call it the Winter Solstice ceremony site. How's that? Right? Where was this? This was on the on the in the far southern Sierras of California, eastern California. And there's a painting that shows the sun coming up behind the highest hill, the highest mountain. And if you're there for sunrise, right, on
00:17:27
Speaker
The winter solstice, right? You get there at 7.30, December 21st or thereabouts, and you see the sun coming up behind the highest mountain and it sits there. It sits there and does not move for maybe 30 seconds, maybe a minute, and then it begins to shine and and glow. And just that whole whole sort of experience of seeing the sun do that and knowing where you are and seeing the imagery on the rock.
00:17:59
Speaker
it It gives you a whole different feeling, a whole different sense, ah a whole different set of expectations, a relationship to the sun as a as a deity, as a being, as a supernaturally charged, energetic phenomenon. And you being one with it all. Yes, and and we we being one for it all. Now what the natives believe, and it makes sense, is during this period of time, you have two or three days where the sun doesn't move. It sits there in that little spot, right? right And it does it doesn't begin to move the back the other way. It sort of stays in that little spot. And so, as they thought about it, and it makes sense, it was their responsibility
00:18:52
Speaker
to get that sun a moving again and keep it moving in terms of its travels and its relationship to the heavens. And unless they began to sing and dance and conduct the ceremonies that they had done forever, it may not move. And then where would we be? It might be stuck. Right, it might be stuck. so they move it along in the heavens, and that's part of the relationship they have with the solar deity. The sun is to them a being, a very energetic being, and they typically have people who are in there their particular tribe who are watchers of the sun, sun watchers, right and so they track it.
00:19:48
Speaker
and they know where it's going to be, and they know when about its time for the sun ceremony. See what I mean? yeah And so and so it really it really does begin to enervate everything about your being because you have a new relationship with the cosmos, seeing the sun, understanding its movements, knowing it's it comes up, seeing it's painted on the rocks, you're there and you're freezing your butt off in the morning and there comes the sun in the and all of a sudden everything is enlightened, everything is gets warm and the sun comes up and sits right at ah on the top on the very peak
00:20:29
Speaker
of that the highest peak in the Far Southern Sierras. and There it shines, and there it comes, and and that's one way of looking at it. so That's an archaeoastronomical site. yes That that's must be amazing. It is amazing. But ah it's equally amazing. in another way, and that is when you so when you can see it as what's called the sun dagger. And so when it is it it shines in a certain way and it produces a light shaft, a shaft of light, and so we can mark that spot
00:21:06
Speaker
and know pivotally when it's going to be in that fashion. So that's another way of marking or particularly you know sort of connecting with that phenomenon. So I like that. That's kind of ah a fun thing to to know about. And i always it doesn't have to be a dagger. No. Sometimes it can be the movement of a shadow. Yes. along with the the figure, right a stage the dance the dance with the figure. Yes, yes, I love it. Well, so we got we got through what one one little piece of the figure in this segment. See you on the flip flop, gang. Welcome back, gang. This is Dr. Allen.
00:21:52
Speaker
We're going to finish up. This is the third segment on episode 125 with Tony Prikas. Tony, you were going to you're going to tell us something about that series of intertwining, unwinding circles. You said it's way up on the side of the hillside, right?
The Rio Parco Valley Petroglyphs
00:22:09
Speaker
Right. This is about 20 feet above the dry wash, which is a tributary of the real Porco. So you have to climb them up on this ledge or it's a mound of rock and dirt to see these petroglyphs. And I know I bombarded you with a lot of panels, but they're all here on this sandstone mural on the sandstone ledge. Eye level. Yeah, the the canvas is sandstone. It's a beautiful beige. Right. very Very unusual for New Mexico.
00:22:42
Speaker
And so, now that's not the only thing and in this panel, of course. We have a ah ah very remarkable figure right that's just to the left of that, right? Yes. Yeah. So that figure, it's rather interesting to me because it has it has some nuances that are kindred to my friends in the Kosos. So, as as I've said, um some people some people would say, oh, this is only a solid-bodied figure. It's a shaman that's dancing, and you know it's ah one that's commemorating the ultra states of consciousness. they're doing ah you know they're They're involved with a vision experience. Well, that's possible, possible. But I think more possible and more highly probable is that that figure
00:23:34
Speaker
is some sort of a super mundane being. It's a deity. It's a figure of power. And and the reason I say that is because there's a visual shorthand that comes with that figure. What is that? Well, the yeah lightning bolt perhaps at its feet, at its base. Yeah, that's true. But what what I always see is those, the hands that are astride and the fingers that are wide, caughts going up to the cosmos, to the heavens. And for 2,000 years, that has been an Adderan posture recognized throughout the world for the last, you know, for what? For 50,000 years, you found it ah yeah on rock art, but also it's it's it's used in and Catholic art and and in other art as well throughout the world.
00:24:31
Speaker
And it's a visual shorthand having to say that this is adoration, this is prayer, this is supplication. This is also a way of showing that this is a being that is not a conventional being, not ah just a regular, everyday human being, but this is a powerful spirit a supramundane kind of an animal human that is a figure of power and prestige and magnitude. And you can see that.
00:25:06
Speaker
it's It's got... It hints of flight, doesn't it? Hints of flight at the bottom. That's either fringe, and that fringe sometimes is called tail feathers. Sometimes it's it's identified as a feminine element. They even call it pubic fringe, and that's that's shown. But this one doesn't have any sort of denotation of the actual sex of this figure, but besides the ah posture and that linear nature, what does it have behind him?
00:25:42
Speaker
him or her, it's got a very strong serpentine figure. figure It's a snake. I would say ah strongly it's a snake. A serpent, yes. And the snake has a lot of meanings. It's not a bad thing two to a lot of the indigenous people. It was a powerful spirit figure and it had to do with everlasting life because it's it sheds its skin. It has to do with water because of its serpentine way it it moves on the ground. It also is a being that's liminal. It lives on the land, but also is under the land. It's considered to be the shamanistic deity.
00:26:26
Speaker
that sort of protects and deals with all of the underworld. Sometimes the underworld is is and is an area where the the animals go after they're killed. And then there's a shamanistic deity, what's called an animal mistress or animal master, that actually is responsible for bringing back and revitalizing those those animals because they're immortal and they don't die. and they come back every spring, and they come out of the holes and the rocks, the springs, the tanks, the ponds, all the different avenues in terms of vor vortexes and vortices that can express the new life. right And so and so that's that's there too, right? yes
00:27:16
Speaker
And it's interestingly drawn ah behind it. Yes, yes, behind it. so a depthpt Right, right. And then right below it is a lightning arrow. What's that all about? Well, that's that has to do with fertilization. It's going into the ground and into the into that crack right there at the base. and That, again, is it is sort of a fertilizing mechanism. ah light Lightning is seen as sort of hitting the ground and then enabling the ground to open up and produce life, just like a seed is thrown into the ground right and dies.
00:28:01
Speaker
It's covered up just like in death, and then it sprouts anew. So from death comes life. So again, because of the water symbol, because of the lightning arrow symbol, this could be an an animal master. It could be so part partly one of the roles of this particular figure might be as a being that is venerated and in a way to hope and pray and supplicate and give us long life, give us regeneration, give us water, give us plants, give us animals, and give us life.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yes. And all of this in this little figure. There's only four figures here. Yes. It's it's so complicated. Yes. Yes. And these resemble what I've heard of as wave figures. Navajo, Yay figures. Yay figures. Yay figures. Yes. And when I talked to my friend, who's a Pueblo Indian and also a yeah a Ute Indian, And I asked him about those figures that exist there in Utah and New Mexico. And I said, well, what what are all those figures all about? He says, well, those are like yay figures. They're like, these are animal human figures that populate the cosmos and are part of the
00:29:32
Speaker
many, many deities, the multiple deities that exist in the native world. because there's And they they're not just one thing. They're not they're men, they're women. they're part of their Their responsibilities are multifaceted. And it's interesting that it has a solid body because they took time to to make it solid. oh yeah It's interesting that it has some sort of a hat or some sort of a headdress, and it also even has two eyes and a nose.
00:30:06
Speaker
which usually many of these figures have no faces on them, but this one does. So all of that, you know, we could go on and on and on about that, but all of this in just three little elements on one little. page Yes. Amazing. And it's actually deeply pecked. Yes, that's very important because you can notice that that those spirals are very deeply pecked, aren't they? right And then the animal human figure is is almost stretched or etched into this beautiful right expression on that sandstone. right
00:30:44
Speaker
And that's relatively recent. Okay, yes. Certain petroglyphs on this panel, on this ah outcropping, look deeper than others. Some are faded, but these these are attended to. Yeah, are older. And one of the things that we've we found, of course, is that the Native people go back and look at those images and the ones that are favored are re-pecked. They're recharged. The energy is recharged from those images that they favor so they could bring out the mojo and bring out the energy and bring out the mana from heaven from those favored figures.
00:31:28
Speaker
Right. Recharged. I do like that. That doesn't help us when we try to date them, no way. No, it doesn't. Yes, they recharge. No. But but needless to say, it's it's you can tell that certain figures are rather special. Yeah, and important to the ceremonies. Yeah. Well, I think we've almost used up our time. What would you so what would you say to anybody who listened to this episode? What's your what's your takeaway from this, Tony? What would you tell them by way of recommendation or by way of sort of a reflection on your experiences with Brock Garden?
00:32:08
Speaker
I think I mentioned it earlier about being in the right state of mind, and sometimes they'll they'll find you if you are.
Mindfulness in Rock Art Discovery
00:32:17
Speaker
For instance, my my dog went and chased a cow fairly close to here. and The first time I was looking for this, and I was just not in the right frame of mind, but after I returned, and I was without my dog, by the way, I was searching for it, and I was that piece not finding it and there it was I saw the panels so I climbed up and
00:32:46
Speaker
So being in the right state of mind, basically, to really appreciate this and not taking it lightly. This is a remote area. And so sometimes these figures are almost a way of of meditating or or sort of ah divining and connecting to a higher power, to ah some sort of a, you know, some sort of a ah the cosmos and sort of and enjoying the natural world and also understanding that you're connecting with the freeze frame from hundreds and sometimes thousands of years ago, which in of itself is rather supernatural. I agree. Well, I think with that, Tony, we're going to say adieu. Thank you for coming to us from New Mexico. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you. See you in the flip flop, gang.
00:33:39
Speaker
are um Thanks for listening to the Rock Art Podcast with Dr. Alan Garfinkel and Chris Webster. Find show notes and contact information at www.arcpodnet.com forward slash rock art. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing this podcast with your family and friends. um a a
00:34:15
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.