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Episode 6: How and Why You Can Forgive Those Who Have Hurt You
65 Plays3 years ago
Mentioned in this episode:
Forgiving What You Can’t Forget by Lysa Terkeurst
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Transcript
Introduction to Root Like Faith Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hey there, I'm Ruth Schwenk and I'm so thrilled you're listening in with us at Root Like Faith. It's our deepest desire here to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's Word, transformed by the love of Jesus, and moved by His mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
Why is Forgiveness Crucial for Relationships?
00:00:20
Speaker
Well, on today's episode of Root Like Faith, we are talking about forgiveness. Listen, all of us have hurt others, and all of us have been hurt by others. But you know what? Forgiveness is what makes fallen and sinful relationship possible.
00:00:37
Speaker
Without it, no relationship could last. So yes, this can be painful to talk about. It can be painful to put into practice, but it is so important. So we are going there. We're going to dive in. Let's go.
Linking Humility and Forgiveness
00:00:56
Speaker
Well, as we continue through this season of Lent in preparation for Easter, we have talked now, we've talked about confession, humility, and today we are talking about forgiveness. And, you know, there's this connection between humility and forgiveness. And there's a book called Forgiving What You Can't Forget by Lisa Turkhurst. It's amazing. I'll reference it maybe occasionally here and we'll make sure we put it in the show notes.
00:01:21
Speaker
But I love what Lisa says. She says, humanity without humility makes true forgiveness impossible. So if you have not listened to our last episode that we did where we talked about humility, start there and then come back here to this episode of forgiveness.
Reflecting on Lent: Forgiveness and Humility
00:01:39
Speaker
Well, this season of Lent, you know, it's a time when we remember how God has forgiven us.
00:01:43
Speaker
through the death and the resurrection of Jesus. And yet forgiveness is something that we all can struggle with. I mean, let's just be honest here. I feel like I say let's be honest all the time, don't I, honey? I feel like you do too. And I always say the truth is, I can't help it. It's okay, honey, I love you for viewing. It's how I emphasize things that are important to me. This is a safe place.
00:02:08
Speaker
I don't even want to know what I do.
Forgiveness as a Gift: Lessons from Jesus
00:02:11
Speaker
I know in preaching, which I know this is different. People can't see me. Friends can't see us. But I've been told that when I'm preaching, I touch my glasses a lot. And so that's what I do. So I just own that. So I can say the truth is... So right now, I'm touching my glasses.
00:02:26
Speaker
No, you're not. Okay, anyways, let's get to this whole topic of forgiveness. You know, I think that some of our greatest memories as as human beings can be in relationships, but that can also be the place where some of our most painful memories are. And you know, we've all been hurt. We've all been disappointed.
00:02:49
Speaker
Others have been hurt by us, like I said, and we've been hurt by others. But forgiveness, it's this gift that we have. I think it's what makes relationship possible. Yeah. I mean, I love that you use that word gift because it really is. I mean, forgiveness is such a gift to us. It's a, you know, as we think about, obviously.
00:03:07
Speaker
the person of Jesus and what He's accomplished for us on the cross. That is a free gift that God offers us. He offers us forgiveness from Him. He offers us peace with Him. And so, when you think about then extending that same forgiveness to other people, it really is a gift that makes relationships
00:03:26
Speaker
possible and I just think it's sobering. When you start thinking about the relationships that maybe have gone awry over the years and I think about my own sin, my own pride, my own self-righteousness and as I look in the rear view mirror of my own life, I see a lot
Personal Stories of Seeking Forgiveness
00:03:41
Speaker
of carnage.
00:03:41
Speaker
From different relationships that I go. Oh that was Pat Twink ten years ago or that was Pat Twink five years ago And I wish I had that relationship or that conversation to do over again and it's the forgiveness is such a gift because you know I think about how many times I've gone back to a friend or a former co-worker and just said you know I
00:04:00
Speaker
I want to just apologize. You may not remember this, but God brought this to my mind. And I just want to repent of that. Like I was so immature at that time or so self-righteous. And to experience the joy of, you know, another brother or sister in Christ forgiving you of that is amazing. And so it really is a gift that God gives us, you know, to be in a relationship with Him, but also to maintain relationships with others. Yeah. And I think that's where humility ties in. Like Lisa said in that, quote, humanity without humility makes true forgiveness impossible.
00:04:30
Speaker
I think, you know, it's the humility. It's in humility where I recognize, wow, just because 10 years ago, Pat Schwank did this, that's, you know, I've done things just like that. You know, like it's, he's not all bad.
00:04:45
Speaker
Or you think about somebody that hurt you 10 years ago and I go, gosh, I wouldn't want somebody to judge me today on who I was 10 years ago. And so that person that said that or did that 10 years ago, I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they're not the same person. Is there something that happened 10 years ago that you talk about? Just a number.
00:05:05
Speaker
I'll try not to look you in the eyes when I say that next time. Of course, we're talking about forgiveness that might come a little easier. There are certain things in our life that are very, very painful. So I don't want to make light of forgiveness either. But again, there's freedom that comes from forgiveness.
00:05:26
Speaker
I mean, I remember being, I guess it was just out of high school. I was working in Fort Wayne and I was going part time. I was going to school part time and I was working in a factory there in Fort Wayne. And one of, I remember one day, it was on a Monday. And the only reason I know that is because the lady that I was working with that particular day came in and she was talking about like what an incredible weekend it was.
00:05:51
Speaker
And I remember asking her, like, what made that weekend, what made the weekend so incredible for you? And she talked about how there was, I think it was a Friday night or Saturday night, they were putting their kids to bed. And in the midst of that, what came out of that conversation, that experience is that her husband had been holding something against her for 13 years. Oh my word. And I was like, just, I mean, as a young college student, like, I'm like,
00:06:19
Speaker
that clicked with me. Even at that age, I was like, that doesn't seem right. Yeah, that's a long time. But I just remember thinking that. That's incredible. And so she just was talking about the healing and restoration that came out of that for 13 years. He was holding something against her. He had been holding something against her. And so she just talked about, and she was not a Christian, but just the healing that came out of that time of forgiveness, the conversations that followed that.
00:06:47
Speaker
And so, yeah, there are serious things that we walk through. There's serious things we send against people, but we're also send against in really, really significant ways. And so forgiveness does not come easy. Yeah, and forgiveness isn't saying that what somebody did to you was okay either. And I think that when I'm talking about these deep
00:07:10
Speaker
deeply painful and hurtful things that happened in your past maybe that you still struggle with today. Forgiveness is really just, and I'll share this quote later on as well, but it's permission to have freedom and not let that person continue to hurt you by not forgiving them.
Biblical Teachings on Forgiveness
00:07:31
Speaker
But let's, as we sort of continue on, let's look at a couple different places in the scriptures where we just see this theme of forgiveness, because obviously it's the message of the Bible, God's forgiveness of us through the person of Jesus and his life, death, and resurrection. But let's just look at a couple examples of where we see this theme, this call, this invitation
00:07:51
Speaker
to walk in forgiveness. And, you know, one of the places that maybe we can start is in the Lord's Prayer, you know, where the disciples come to Jesus and they say, you know, teach us to pray. And he responds to them and he says, this is how you should pray. Our Father who is in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And then he goes on and he says, forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us.
00:08:19
Speaker
from evil. And so I just think it's important that as Jesus was teaching his disciples how to pray, the act of repentance and forgiveness was embedded in that prayer. And so what Jesus was teaching is this
00:08:34
Speaker
this daily reminder that we need to come and confess our own sin to God and ask Him to forgive us. And the main way that the Bible talks about sin in the Bible is really as a debt. And He's talking about how we need to come before God and ask Him to release us of that debt. Of course, we believe Jesus has done that.
00:08:53
Speaker
on the cross, but as we continue to grow in intimacy with Him, we need to continue to ask Him to confess us of that sin and to release us from that debt. But also, He's telling us that we need to release other people from the debt that they owe us. And so when you think about somebody that owes you something, they're in debt to you. That's the language of the Bible. And so forgiving them
00:09:17
Speaker
One way of thinking about forgiveness is releasing them from the debt that they owe you and saying, you don't need to pay me back for that, like I release you. And so that's one of the first places in the Gospels.
Trusting God's Justice: Forgiveness Without Vengeance
00:09:32
Speaker
I feel like when you do that, you're letting God be over their life. You don't need to be the one that holds them accountable, God will. Yeah, and I think that that's such a,
00:09:46
Speaker
such an important part of growing in forgiveness. I think it's in Romans, I don't have it here in my notes, but I think it's in Romans chapter 12, where Paul, he says, vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. And I think what he's saying there is that God is a God of justice,
00:10:07
Speaker
And he's a God who is a righteous judge, who knows all things and he sees all things. And there really is coming a day when God will right the wrongs. And because the Christian believes in a just God, a God of righteousness and a God who is going to judge the living and the dead, the Christian can live more freely and more forgiving and more gracious.
00:10:28
Speaker
they don't have to take justice into their own hands and try to right every wrong that's been done to them. There are some things that we know that we just have to release to God and know that someday in his goodness and in his righteousness, he's gonna right that wrong. And so I don't have to try to get back or to get even with somebody. I can grow in forgiving somebody knowing that that's in God's hands and he'll take care of that.
00:10:50
Speaker
Mm hmm. And I love, you know, obviously we're talking about how forgiveness is really the the message of the Bible. And I think, you know, just looking at the life of Jesus and how he was mistreated, mistreated and, you know, obviously crucified. And yet he forgave like if he can, I can.
Jesus' Forgiveness on the Cross
00:11:14
Speaker
Yeah, you just think about those words from the cross, that here is Jesus in the midst of being rejected, being betrayed, being alone, being physically and emotionally, emotionally and physically suffering. And yet, even in the midst of that, even the midst of being pinned to the cross out of obedience, not a love for us,
00:11:33
Speaker
he's thinking of others and he says from the cross, Father forgive them for they know not what they're doing. In other words, he's making an excuse for their sins. He's saying it's out of ignorance. They have no idea what they're doing and so forgive them. And so it's a staggering thing when you think about the work of God on our behalf and
00:11:53
Speaker
And just that idea that forgiveness really does require us absorbing a certain amount of pain. I mean, that's the cross. And Jesus absorbs pain and suffering for the sake of others. And I think that that's a really important part of forgiveness and living a grace-filled life is being willing to absorb a certain amount of pain.
Forgiveness Brings Peace
00:12:15
Speaker
Uh, cause it is painful to forgive somebody. Well, and I think, you know, the truth is here, I said the truth is again, the truth is we live in a sinful world. We, none of us are perfect. And with that, there will be forgiveness that is necessary because of that.
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, let me read this other passage from the Old Testament. I think it's so, this is one of my favorite passages on forgiveness, Psalm 103, verses 10 through 12. And the psalmist says, he does not treat us as our sins deserve. Here again, talking about
00:12:46
Speaker
the loving kindness of God, the graciousness of God. God, He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is His love for those who fear Him. And as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. And I just love that. I just love that reminder of
00:13:10
Speaker
again, of just the graciousness of God and what He does for our sake, that He doesn't hold our sins against us. He doesn't repay us for what we deserve. He comes and He pays a price for us. And so, I love that theme. You know, the New Testament, there's so many different examples
00:13:29
Speaker
Matthew 18 is the story of the unforgiving debtor. Jesus talks about in Matthew 7, verses 1 through 10, how we judge others is how we will be judged. He talks about the merciful person, and that merciful person will receive mercy, Matthew 5 verse 7.
00:13:48
Speaker
And I think it's important as we think about this, you know, Luke chapter 6 verse 37, Jesus says, forgiven, you will be forgiven. And so there is this connection between our own forgiveness of others and God's forgiveness of us. And that ought to just kind of cause us to tremble a little bit. Well, and pause, you know, I think it's a picture of...
00:14:08
Speaker
And when you talked about the merciful will receive mercy, I immediately think of the person who is holding so tightly to bitterness and pain. And when they release that in forgiveness, again, not saying that the person who inflicted that pain upon them
00:14:26
Speaker
is right and okay, but just releasing them into the hands of God, there is such peace that can come from that. It's just a beautiful picture.
00:14:38
Speaker
It is, and I think as we kind of talk about that idea of just our need to forgive because God has forgiven us and the peace that comes from that, the life that comes from that, I want to just be real careful though too, because I think as we think about this command to forgive and then Jesus says, forgive and I'll forgive you, it's not necessarily a condition for our forgiveness, but it is the proof of our forgiveness.
00:15:00
Speaker
And so I want to just sort of be careful of that because I think sometimes we can go, gosh, you know, I'm struggling with forgiveness and that must mean that God hasn't forgiven me. And so we want to just be careful of that, that it's not necessarily a condition for our forgiveness, but it is the proof that we really have been forgiven. And so again, I think that idea that a forgiven person is going to be far more willing to forgive and we ought to take that serious, you know, that that warning.
00:15:24
Speaker
that Jesus gives, but remembering that God has forgiven us. And the real proof of that, the real evidence that we've experienced that life-changing forgiveness is that we are willing to forgive others. And that doesn't mean we just forgive instantly or in a moment, but that we're growing in that direction, that God is helping us. He's giving us the grace to forgive. And there are some things that just take a lot longer to forgive.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah. So Romans 12, 17 through 21 says, do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
How to Initiate Forgiveness and Repair Relationships
00:16:05
Speaker
Well, I've come back to that verse a lot. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written, it is mine to avenge. I will repay, says the Lord.
00:16:14
Speaker
On the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heat burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
00:16:28
Speaker
those verses must be meant for somebody else. Oh, gosh, that's really, yeah, it's intimidating. It's like, okay. One of my favorite memories early on with our, I think this was Noah, who Noah's 14 now. Is that correct, he's 14? Yeah. Okay. He is your child. I know, but I get him all mixed up. And so he was probably, I don't know, he was a toddler. He was just learning to pray. And I remember at dinner, this is when we lived down in the Toledo area,
00:16:56
Speaker
And I remember we asked him to pray one night and he was praying and he got to the end of his prayer and he said, and Jesus, we forgive you. And I remember stopping him after the prayer and saying, you know what, we're the ones that need to be forgiven. And other need to be, other people need to be forgiven. And Jesus is not the one who needs to be forgiven.
00:17:14
Speaker
But I love that story because I think so many times we think, well, we're the one that is right. And other people need to come to us and ask for forgiveness. And yet Paul's words here in some of the verses we shared earlier,
00:17:31
Speaker
really put the burden on us as the one who maybe has been offended or has been hurt to take the initiative to go and try to repair and restore a broken relationship. And that's challenging because we all want the other person
00:17:46
Speaker
to come to us. Well especially if honestly there's people it's they did something to us and you want them to come in and respond in a loving way where they're asking for forgiveness and that there's a lot of times in our life where that just won't happen. Right. And so I feel like this these verses tell us what to do with that.
00:18:08
Speaker
And I think, you know, just, I mean, there's so much we could say about this particular passage, but I think, you know, one thing that we just want to highlight is verse, you know, 17, that really forgiveness focuses on repairing and not repaying. And so so many times, you know, when we get hurt, you know, we're just so focused on making that person pay. We want to try to punish them. And so we play the tape over and over again in our head. You know, we lay in bed at night and we sort of envision ourselves having that conversation. Or we give them the silent treatment. Or we give them the silent treatment. Which is what I do. I'm sorry.
00:18:38
Speaker
Maybe we should have some forgiveness right here. I mean, I'm not giving you the silent treatment right now, obviously. But I mean, that's like my, I have to- That's your weapon of choice. You just withdraw. And I'm apologizing right now. I never knew that. Honey. This explains things.
00:18:57
Speaker
No, it's a silent treatment until I feel like you, if you did something to me, you need to come and say that you're sorry. But again, that's not right. I mean here, this is like a real life example. Like that's not what the Bible is telling me. I don't wait for that person to come and say they're sorry to me.
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that, again, I think just there's so many times in relationships where we have to be willing to initiate. And in that end, again, that's a work of God's grace that He empowers us by His Spirit to do that. And sometimes that takes time. It takes healing. But I think Paul's words here in verse 17, this idea that we need to really focus on repairing. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right.
00:19:42
Speaker
in the eyes of everyone. And so the focus is on doing what is right and not repaying somebody, but really repairing a broken relationship. And it just seems like so many times that requires that we're the ones that pick up the phone first or send the text message or make the invite to get together for coffee.
00:20:02
Speaker
that usually that other person will not do that. And so I think, again, the reminder here in some of those passages we looked at elsewhere in the gospels is that we need to be the ones who take the initiative. Yeah, and that doesn't mean that everything will turn out rosy, but at least you know that you've taken that step and then you're handing it over to the Lord and letting him take care of it.
Taking Responsibility for Peace
00:20:27
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that when you look at verse 18, Paul says, if it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. If it is possible. If it is possible. And so I think we have to be able to in good conscience say, have I done everything to be at peace with that person? And so Paul is saying, sometimes peace isn't possible. Sometimes a hurt or an offense or a broken severed relationship
00:20:55
Speaker
can't be restored, but ball saying make sure that's not your fault. Make sure the burden is on the other person. Make sure you've done everything you possibly can to repair that severed broken relationship. And when you've done everything you possibly can, if you still can't have peace, then you have to walk away. Continue praying for that person, but make sure that's on them and not on you. Yeah, I love that.
00:21:21
Speaker
One of my favorite quotes is by Fulton Sheen, and he talks about this is actually, there's multiple people throughout church history have used the same concept. I think it was actually St. Augustine who maybe first said it, but he talked about creation out of nothing. And he was kind of talking about this idea that forgiveness is actually a greater work
00:21:42
Speaker
than God creating out of nothing. And multiple theologians and writers have commented on that concept that in creation, God was really taking nothing and creating something, but in forgiveness, we're taking something and we're putting it into nothing. We're taking it into nothing. And so it's sort of the reversal, if you will, of creation. And so there've been multiple Christian writers and theologians over the years
00:22:06
Speaker
that have said that forgiveness is really taking something and putting it into nothing. And it's really a greater work than the work of creation. And I just love that idea. Because it's so hard. It is, it is so, so hard. And so I just think, again, it's a work of God's grace. It takes time and it takes humility and ultimately,
00:22:28
Speaker
Again, it is a work of God in us.
Practical Advice on Forgiving Others
00:22:31
Speaker
And so maybe as we close, let's just share a couple practical ways for the person that is wrestling with this. I think all of us likely have a person or multiple people that either we've sinned against and we need to go and ask for forgiveness or that have sinned against us. And I'm guessing that all of us have those relationships. There's people coming to mind right now as we listen to this or somebody listens to this. And so what can we do
00:22:56
Speaker
very practically to pursue a life of forgiveness. Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, we could really, this whole topic of forgiveness could really be, we could keep talking about this. And so, but let's move on, like you said, to the practical ways, like how do we actually grow in forgiveness? How do I stop doing the silent treatment? That'd be great.
00:23:18
Speaker
Well, I think, you know, first of all, we've said this a lot, but, you know, it's supernatural. This isn't something that this, you know, out of my own strength, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to forgive. And I think that's really an important place to start for us to remember that this is only by God's grace that we can even forgive in the first place.
00:23:36
Speaker
I think our desires are fallen, right? And this goes back to kind of what we've been talking about throughout this Lenten season, that we need Jesus to refine us and to restore us and to correct disordered desires and sinful thoughts. And so a lot of times, I mean, we know plainly what the Bible says about forgiveness, and yet we don't have the desire to forgive. And so I think what you're talking about
00:24:00
Speaker
is if you're listening and you're like, I know exactly what God's Word says about forgiveness and I know exactly who has sinned against me, but I don't want to. I think the place to begin is what you're saying is that to begin asking God, God, I want to want to forgive. I don't have the desire yet. I don't feel like I want to, the emotion isn't there, the feeling isn't there, the desire isn't there.
00:24:26
Speaker
And so God softened my heart through the power of your spirit and give me that desire to even want to seek forgiveness. I think it's a great place to begin. Yeah, and because we can't do it without Him. And I think we have to remember that. It doesn't feel natural because we're sinful. We don't want to forgive. And there's things that people have done to us that we don't want to forgive. But God wants us to forgive and we can only do it in His strength.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I think we should remember here that forgiveness again, I think I've said this already, but it's not forgetting It's not saying you know, let's just sweep it under the rug and pretend like this never happened It's bringing that freedom to your life because you're choosing to forgive that person and it's a process and so that's practically I think we need to look at it like that. This is a process and
00:25:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think that idea that forgiveness is not forgetting. So when you choose to forgive somebody or enter into that process of naming those things that have been done to you, and that person admitting that and confessing that, that is something that is just not an event. It doesn't happen just once.
00:25:35
Speaker
and then you're done with it. It really is this process that every time now when that person comes to mind or when the enemy brings up what has been done to you, like it requires, I mean, you're not gonna forget that, but it requires then you choosing by God's grace not to continue punishing that person. And so I think that's where you see that idea.
00:25:56
Speaker
that forgiveness is, it's not forgetting, but it's also a process. It's making the choice with God's help to not go on punishing that person, not continuing to withdraw or even mentally when you think about that person, sort of taking joy and delight in your mind about what you would love to say to that person. It's really choosing not to punish them as you move forward. And I think lastly,
00:26:20
Speaker
Again, it's coming back to the cross. It's remembering how much we have been forgiven. And I think when we continue to fix our eyes on Jesus and we look at how serious our own sin is and what it costs God to come to us and to suffer for us, it enables us to be able to be more gracious with other people. And I think God gives us the grace to see our own sin.
00:26:45
Speaker
You see that in the in the life of Paul where he says I'm the chief of all sinners I think as we continue to grow in Christ likeness we continue to grow in humility We have a more accurate view of our of ourself and we begin to go boy You know what like who am I to hold?
00:26:59
Speaker
sin against somebody else when I recognize what I've done to God or to somebody else. And so I think as we continue to just look at the cross and fix our eyes on Jesus, God gives us grace to continue walking, I think, in greater humility and grace with others.
Resources and Closing Remarks
00:27:16
Speaker
And I think, again, it's supernatural. It's not in our own strength. And there's a lot of people that maybe you're listening and you need to talk to somebody.
00:27:26
Speaker
You know, you need to talk to a counselor. I would really encourage you to do that because this counselor can help you through this process. And again, it's not in our own strength. It's supernatural. It's not a, I love that we, that honey, that you said, it's not just like this one time. Okay. I forgive you because
00:27:46
Speaker
In reality, it doesn't usually look like that. I wish it was that easy. Yeah, I wish it was that easy, but it is a process. Again, I know I mentioned Lisa Turker's book, Forgiving What You Can't Forget, but I want to make sure that I mention it again and we will be sure to put a link in the show notes.
00:28:03
Speaker
But it's called Forgiving What You Can't Forget. Discover how to move on, make peace with painful memories, and create a life that's beautiful again. And I would just really encourage you, if you are struggling with forgiveness or you just want to learn more in this area of forgiveness, pick up this book.
00:28:21
Speaker
There's a quote that another quote in the book that I just love and Lisa says, those who cooperate most fully with forgiveness are those who dance most freely in the beauty of redemption. And that is just such a picture. Like I said, there's such freedom that comes when we forgive. And she goes on to say,
00:28:42
Speaker
You deserve to stop suffering because of what other people have done to you. Wow, what a beautiful picture. Well, this was such a great conversation today. We're so grateful you have joined us. If you haven't had a chance to listen to the upper other episodes on Lent, be sure you listen back. We'll make sure that we put everything in the show notes at rootlikefaith.com forward slash podcast.
00:29:05
Speaker
Also, if we haven't met, we want to get to know you, so be sure to follow us on Instagram at PatrickWSchwank and at RuthSchwank or on Facebook. We are so thrilled you're joining us. We welcome you into our family here at Root Like Faith.
00:29:21
Speaker
Would you do us a quick favor and leave us a review or rating and share this podcast with your friends? We are so, so grateful for your help in getting the word out. Okay friend, well we will chat soon and we hope you have the best week.