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Season 3 Ep 13 A Gay Son's Journey to God with Dr. Christopher Yuan
174 Plays2 years ago
Dr. Christopher Yuan has taught the Bible at Moody Bible Institute for twelve years and his speaking ministry on faith and sexuality has reached five continents. He speaks at conferences, on college campuses, and in churches. He has co-authored with his mother their memoir, Out of a Far Country: A Gay Son’s Journey to God, A Broken Mother’s Search for Hope. He is also the author of Giving a Voice to the Voiceless.
Christopher graduated from Moody Bible Institute in 2005 and received a master’s in biblical exegesis in 2007 and a doctorate of ministry in 2014. Dr. Yuan’s newest book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel: Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God’s Grand Story, was named 2020 Book of the Year for Social Issues by Outreach Magazine.
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This podcast is produced and edited by Angie Elkins Media, Inc.
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Transcript
Introduction to Rootleg Faith Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
Hi, I'm Ruth Schwank and I'm so thrilled you're listening in with us at Rootleg Faith. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission and the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
00:00:19
Speaker
Today we have a special guest on the show. His name is Dr. Christopher Ewan, and I'm going to tell you a little bit about him before we get started. Dr. Christopher Ewan has taught the Bible at Moody Bible Institute for 12 years, and his speaking ministry on faith and sexuality has reached five continents.
00:00:36
Speaker
He speaks at conferences, on college campuses, and in churches. He is co-authored with his mother their memoir, Out of a Far Country, A Gay Son's Journey to God, A Broken Mother's Search for Hope. He is also the author of Giving a Voice to the Voiceless.
00:00:53
Speaker
Christopher graduated from Moody Bible Institute in 2005 and received a master's in biblical exegesis in 2007 and a doctorate of ministry in 2014.
Dr. Christopher Yuan's Journey and Impact
00:01:04
Speaker
Dr. Ewing's newest book, Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Desire, and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story, was named 2020 Book of the Year for Social Issues by Outreach magazine.
00:01:17
Speaker
So, this is going to be a really, really great conversation today between Patrick, my husband, and Dr. Christopher Ewen. And honey, can you just tell them a little bit about, the listener, a little bit about what you guys are going to be talking about? Yeah, it's a great conversation where really just having Christopher share his story. And as you mentioned already, he lived a gay lifestyle for a number of years.
00:01:40
Speaker
and came to know Christ and has been radically changed through that relationship over time. And God has just used him in so many different ways to speak to those that are struggling in that area with their sexuality. And I think one of the things that I really appreciated in our conversation was just the role that a parent can play when they have a child that
00:02:04
Speaker
perhaps is struggling with same-sex attraction. And so it's so, I think, important for us to have this conversation, to speak to parents who maybe have a child or a loved one that is struggling in this area. And then even as a church, too, just how do we provide space for those that are struggling in this area with grace and humility, but also in truth? And so there's all sorts of things that we talk about and just allow him to share his story.
00:02:32
Speaker
And so just really grateful for his time and for his wisdom in this area. We're talking about one of his books, The Holy Sexuality, which is an incredible, incredible book. And so just a great conversation and very thankful for the wisdom and insight he has. Whether you, you know, as a follower of Jesus or a family or a church, I think there's a lot here to walk away with.
00:02:54
Speaker
Hmm. And let me just mention that book again. And I'm sure anywhere books are sold, you can can find this book. It's called Holy Sexuality and the Gospel. All right. So let's get started. Well, my guest today is Dr. Christopher Yuon. I am convinced that you are going to be both challenged and encouraged by our conversation. Dr. Yuon, welcome to Root Like Faith. Oh, thanks for having me on, Patrick.
00:03:20
Speaker
Well, you know, both my wife and I are, are Moody grads. So this is going to, this is especially fun for us. And I think, you know, having two Moody grads on, you just know that the Lord's hand is in this. So this is going to be a special episode, right? So this is a, this is a lot of fun. I know as we were talking before the recording, we just missed each other at Moody, I think by what four or five years. Am I doing the math right? Yeah, that's right. I was there from 01 to 05.
00:03:45
Speaker
Okay, yeah, Ruth and I were there from 96 to 2000. I graduated in 99. Ruth graduated in 2000. So yeah, we just missed each other, but I'm just super grateful to have you on the podcast today. And again, I know that our Root Like Faith family is just going to be greatly challenged and encouraged. And you know, I think your story is so important.
00:04:07
Speaker
And it's one we need to hear. We're going to be talking about your book that came out, I guess, a little bit less than two years ago now, Holy Sexuality in the Gospel, Sex, Desire and Relationships Shaped by God's Grand Story. And we're going to link to that book.
00:04:22
Speaker
and others that you've written in our show notes and your full bio. But I think your story is so important and it's one we need to hear. And yet at the same time, it's not just your story and experience, but it's really also your biblical and theological convictions that inform your story that I think are so needed today. And so I'm just looking forward to diving in to your story and testimony, but also just how you really frame your story.
00:04:48
Speaker
and why that's so important, why it's so needed today. One of the things that I think you say early on in the book is that you weren't just delivered from homosexuality, you were delivered from unbelief. And I think that's such an important distinction. I know it's one you kind of unpack throughout your book and further explain. But I want to begin today by just having you share your story.
Christopher's Transformation and Family's Faith
00:05:11
Speaker
And so if you would start us out and just kind of share a bit of your story and the journey that you've been on over the years.
00:05:19
Speaker
Yeah, you know, that's exactly right. When I tell my testimony and I always want to remind people that my testimony is not of one of a man who was gay and is now no longer gay. That's not my story. My story is that I was lost and now I'm found. I was blind and now I see, I did not believe and now I believe in the only true God who and his son, Jesus Christ.
00:05:43
Speaker
So I think that's the true testimony of one who was lost and was not a believer and now has experienced radical transformation. So coming to faith is the most important thing that anyone could ever do. I wasn't raised in a Christian home, so going to Moody, many of my classmates, they were raised in the church, and that in itself is a testimony. I didn't have that.
00:06:13
Speaker
My parents were Chinese. My parents were born in China, raised in Taiwan, and then came to the United States for graduate school. They married, had my brother and myself. I was born in Chicago and raised there in Chicago. I wrestled with my sexuality from a young age, but I didn't come out until actually my early 20s, which is a bit older than usual.
00:06:39
Speaker
And I moved from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky, pursuing my doctorate in dentistry. And, um, I came out, told my parents, which, uh, you know, took them by surprise. They weren't Christian, uh, but devastated my mom. Hmm. Yeah. And, you know, so the,
00:07:03
Speaker
her response and this is, you know, kind of your typical tiger mom here. I don't know if you've heard that expression before Patrick, but it's very typical among Asians, the mother who, uh, is going to control the situation and make sure she fixes it. She gave me an ultimatum and she said, you must either choose the family or choose that. She couldn't even say the words. The, um, you know, the,
00:07:33
Speaker
It's kind of, it's very typical of Chinese mothers to make family a huge priority. Good thing, right? But then it can often become everything and that's dangerous. So for her, family was everything and thought that, well, I would obviously choose family. Well, for me, I'm
00:07:54
Speaker
You know, there's sometimes joke and call me a banana. I yell only outside, you know, more maybe American Caucasian on the inside. And I was like, I'm not Chinese families, not everything. So I, I was, I told my mom, if you can't accept me, I have no other choice but to leave. Well, that just devastated my mom. My parents, actually they were on the brink of a divorce. They actually already met lawyers and began the paperwork. So as a failure, my mom felt she was a failure.
00:08:21
Speaker
She really didn't have any more reason to live and decided the next day to end her life. But so amazing, God in His providence, in His grace, encouraged her, kind of urged her to go see a minister which gave her a little pamphlet, who gave her a little pamphlet on homosexuality. She bought a one-way Amtrak, ticked a Louisville, and on this train began reading this pamphlet, which shared with her the gospel. It's so amazing. She never heard the gospel before.
00:08:51
Speaker
And, you know, in this pamphlet, she heard that she read that she was a sinner and yet God still loved her, a concept she had never heard before. And as she realized that and received that truth, she also realized that she could love me, even though in spite of me living as a gay man.
00:09:12
Speaker
So she gave her life to Christ on this train. I went the total opposite direction. My father also became a Christian as well, but I wanted nothing to do with their, what I saw as their crazy religion, right? I mean, we're all crazy. And so, um, I just dove right into the world and how all my fellow friends who were not followers of Christ were living, which is have fun, be serious in school, but then on the weekends,
00:09:39
Speaker
go crazy and go out to the bars and go out to the clubs. So I began experimenting with drugs and I always need to give a caveat here. I'm not at all saying all gays and lesbians do drugs, of course some do, some don't, but that is part of my story. I began experimenting drugs, I began selling drugs, and then I was actually expelled from dental school just three months before receiving my doctorate. My parents then,
00:10:07
Speaker
flew down from Chicago to Louisville and I thought they were going to fight to keep me in school. I mean, isn't that what any good Chinese parents should do anyway? Well, to my surprise, Patrick, my mom told the dean in his office with us sitting there, it is not important that Christopher becomes a dentist. What's more important
00:10:29
Speaker
is that Christopher becomes a Christ follower. I was furious because my mom just knew that nothing is more important than her children following Jesus. But sometimes as parents, there's this overemphasis on good things, but these good things can never surpass the great thing, which is knowing Christ. Grades are good. Having good grades is important.
00:10:57
Speaker
being, you know, getting into good school, that could be a good thing, having a good career. But nothing, if we make more of this upon those things, they can become idols. So my mom said, well, let's just support whatever decision the school made. I was furious. So I moved further away from them to the bright lights, big city of Atlanta, where I just did what I knew how to do best, live it up. If there is no God,
00:11:25
Speaker
which that the world is crying out, then have fun now. And I not only was partying, doing drugs and selling drugs, I became a supplier to other dealers in over a dozen states. And my parents, they didn't know that I was doing drugs or selling drugs, but they knew that I needed to know Jesus Christ. So they tried to reach out to me, reach out to me, the love of Christ.
00:11:49
Speaker
They came to visit me one time in Atlanta, and I told them to get out after the second day. I'm so embarrassed to say this. I was awful. But they weren't preaching at me. They weren't telling me I was living in sin. I knew what they believed, but they weren't shoving it down my throat. But just the fact that God had so radically transformed their lives, that they radiated Christ, that was offensive to me, told them to leave.
00:12:15
Speaker
And this is, this is the narrative that we hear today that Christian parents who believe in the Bible, that old outdated book cannot love their gay children. That is what the world is saying, whether it's in Hollywood, whether it's in media, and you actually have to throw that Bible away or not believe that it's completely true to actually love your gay children.
00:12:43
Speaker
Patrick, I had the exact opposite experience. My parents were not Christian. They couldn't love me. They rejected me. It wasn't until God gave them a new heart, gave them a new mind, they were born again, that they knew that they could do nothing other than to love me as God loved them while they were still powerless, while they were still sinners, while they were enemies.
Prison Experience and Spiritual Awakening
00:13:06
Speaker
And that's the same way that they loved me. It was quite remarkable.
00:13:11
Speaker
You know, as a rebellious 20 year old, I do, I wanted nothing to do with it. Right. So I get, I just got worse and worse. And my parents just knew I was hopeless, but mom and dad committed not to focus upon hopelessness, but upon the promises of God. And they enlisted over a hundred prayers. You know, Patrick, you and Ruth know oftentimes, I mean, parents have prodigals.
00:13:40
Speaker
But sometimes they try to go the journey alone. And that's what the enemy wants. My parents, they just kind of set aside their shame and their pride. And they enlisted over a hundred prayer warriors to intercede for me. And my mom began fasting every Monday for seven years. Wow. That's incredible.
00:14:10
Speaker
on my behalf. She spent hours every morning in her prayer closet. She took her shower and turned it into a prayer closet, and she would spend hours in there, not just praying. She would read the Bible, hear from God, and then speak to God. It was, you know, we hear
00:14:38
Speaker
You know, the movie War Room, right? So that was written and produced by the Kendra. Well, they worked with an author, Chris Fabry, from Moody, and he turned that movie into a novel. And so the novel and the book came out at the same time. We got actually a complimentary copy by Tyndall House. When we opened it up, we saw that Chris Fabry had dedicated that book to my mom. That's amazing. That's amazing.
00:15:07
Speaker
And I think that's a challenge. You know, so many times we hear of praying moms. It's like, we're the praying dads. We're the praying men. If we are to lead, are we leading well and covering our families and our loved ones in prayer? And I think that's a challenge for myself. Are we men of His Word? Are we men of prayer? So my mom prayed for that miracle. She prayed.
00:15:37
Speaker
a bold prayer, God do whatever it takes. Yeah. That's a bold prayer for mom for Chinese mom. Yeah. But you know, she was desperate and that miracle came with a bang on my door, opened up my door on my doorstep where 12 federal drug enforcement agents probably not what your mind had in mind, right? With, with whatever, but it's, um, but you know, that,
00:16:08
Speaker
You know, it's only through the lens of the gospel that we can say, thank God for prison. You know, that actually in the midst of horrible situation, God's still there and God can't use that. You know, exactly. Mom did not expect that, but she said, you know what, whatever, God. Sometimes as a parent, you pray those prayers.
00:16:38
Speaker
do this, but make sure they don't become homeless. What if homelessness is the very thing that God's going to use to break them? Oh, I pray that they don't lose their job. What if being unemployed? And so we often limit and get in the way of God. And my mom, I've
00:17:02
Speaker
She's such a woman of faith, but she always says, I'm not a woman of faith. I have such a little faith. And she just basically, that didn't come from faith. That came from desperation. She was so desperate that she just said, God, I can't do anything. You do your work. So that, you know, found myself in jail and I called home.
00:17:25
Speaker
No one wants to call home from jail. I'm going to just get an earful. My mom's first words were, are you okay? No condemnation, no berating words. And it just is exactly what Paul wrote about in Romans chapter two, verse four, that it is God's kindness. Not his wrath, not his anger. It's God's kindness.
00:17:55
Speaker
That leads us to repentance. So I was walking on the cell block, um, passed by this garbage can and I'm like, that's my life trash about to pass by it, but there's something on top of the trash. And I looked down, pick it up. It was a Gideon's new Testament took back to my cell, began reading it. And for the first time ever, I read through the entire gospel of Mark.
00:18:24
Speaker
that night. But I was thinking, oh man, this is the answer. Really, I just thought I've got tons of time on my hands and it better passes somehow. As we know, as people who went to Moody Bible Institute, Scripture, the Bible is not just ink on paper. God's Word, it's the very breath of God.
00:18:50
Speaker
It's living powerful, sharper than any double-edged sword and it began to convict me. Well, I thought things wouldn't get worse. It did. I was called to the nurse's office and the nurse gave me the news that I was HIV positive. So a few days after that, I was lying on my bed. There was actually no one else in my cell, just me. I look up at the cold metal bunk above me and you know, there was just graffiti profanity. Somebody had written something and it read, if you're bored,
00:19:21
Speaker
read Jeremiah 29, 11. For I know the plans that I have for you declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. I mean, there could have been any verse on that bed, but God used that very verse that was written by a prophet
00:19:48
Speaker
thousands of years ago to a rebellious nation in Israel to tell me that if God could have a plan for Israel in rebellion, in exile, He could have a plan for me. Yeah, so good. Well, I still didn't know what that meant, but God gave me enough faith and enough strength to get through that one day and the next and the next. So I began reading the Bible and
00:20:12
Speaker
God began convicting me of my idols, most obviously drugs, but within a few months, God delivered me from that. God kept bringing mine other idols, and there's just one thing that I couldn't let go of my sexuality. Went to a chaplain, and he told me, oh, the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality. He even gave me a book. And I'm like, great. I can have my cake and eat it too. I can have biblical justification for homosexuality. I had that book in one hand, and the Bible in the other. And you know, from a human perspective, I had every single reason in the world.
00:20:40
Speaker
to accept what that book is claiming to justify the way I had been living. But I know now that it was God's indwelling Holy Spirit that convicted me that those assertions from that book were a clear distortion of God and His word. I couldn't even finish that book, gave it back to the chaplain.
Defining Identity through Faith
00:21:00
Speaker
So I turned to the Bible alone, went through every verse, every chapter looking for justification, and I couldn't find any. So I was at this turning point.
00:21:09
Speaker
And a decision had to be made. Either abandon God in his word, live as a gay man, pursue a monogamous same-sex relationship by allowing my attractions, and this is important, by allowing my sexual attractions to dictate not only who I was, but also how I lived. Yeah. Or abandon pursuing a monogamous same-sex relationship, how by freeing myself from my sexuality, by not allowing my desires to control who I am, and live as a follower of Jesus Christ.
00:21:40
Speaker
my decision back was clear and obvious. I followed Jesus. As the days, months of abstinence passed, I realized my sexuality should not be the core of who I am. I told myself before, God loves me unconditionally. And we know that's true, but you know, ours in nature wants to add to God's truth. So I added, so therefore,
00:22:03
Speaker
He doesn't want me to change, similar to people who say, God loves me just the way I am. So leave me alone. But after reading the Bible, I learned that unconditional love is not the same thing as unconditional approval of my behavior. My identity should not be defined by my sexuality or my desires. My identity is not gay.
00:22:25
Speaker
It's not ex-gay. It's not even heterosexual, for that matter, because my identity as a child of the living God must be in Jesus Christ alone. God says, be holy, for I am holy. And yet, before I became a Christian, I thought, man, if I were to become a Christian, then I would have become
00:22:45
Speaker
a heterosexual, which meant I need to be sexually attracted to women. And actually I thought the more sexually attracted I were to lots and lots of women, the more Christian manly I would be. If I had opposite such attractions, I would still need to flee temptation and resist sin. So heterosexuality is not the right goal.
00:23:06
Speaker
besides God never commands us be heterosexual for I am heterosexual neither say be homosexual for I am homosexual instead God says be holy yeah I am holy so the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality but the opposite of homosexuality is holiness yeah every sin is holiness yep
00:23:26
Speaker
And so as God began to reveal this to me, He actually called me to full-time vocational ministry while I was in prison of all places. And I asked my parents to mail me an application to Moody Bible Institute. But there was silence on the other line because I think others were talking about their silence. So I filled it out. They mailed the application to me. And you remember, Patrick, the references that you had to get of people who knew you as a Christian for at least one year.
00:23:57
Speaker
I had some slim pickings. I was in a prison chaplain, a prison guard, and another prison teammate who accepted me, released from prison in July of 2001, started the very next month. So imagine my classmates and when I answered their question, what did you do this summer? I went on to my master's, I said, Jesus, oh seven, and then finished my doctorate in 2014. God has put me on this ministry for his glory for such a time as this.
00:24:24
Speaker
so good. Yeah, there's so many parts of your story. Yeah, it's an amazing story. I know as we were talking even before we started recording, I mean, God is just so good and gracious and pursues us in so many different ways that sometimes we don't even see or recognize at different times. And yeah, just hearing your story is yet another example of that, another testimony of just his goodness and his grace and his kindness. So thank you for sharing that. And I know you
00:24:54
Speaker
You just unpack a lot of the things you just said in your book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel. It's an incredible book. I read it. I don't even know how I came across it, but I remember reading it shortly after it was released. And I have recommended that book to so many people. And so I just thank you for your story and just for all the hard work that has gone into it.
00:25:14
Speaker
writing a book always sounds like a good idea to have to write one and it's people don't realize how much hard work it actually is and so just thank you for writing you know that book and got me the glory yeah and sharing your story and then God is definitely glorified and just appreciate your story and writing ministry speaking ministry
Parental Guidance and Love for Children
00:25:32
Speaker
I'd love to go back, and I know we're going to cover some other ground here as we continue our conversation, but I'd love to kind of go back to some of those earlier years in your journey. I'm just curious, at what point did you become aware of same-sex attraction in your life?
00:25:54
Speaker
You know, actually, it was quite early on. I was nine years old where I came across pornography. So that was really the first time that I realized that. And as parents, you know, I'm single, so I'm not married yet and don't have children. But parents, we need to realize that this is this is kids world today. That pornography is not uncommon. It's very common.
00:26:20
Speaker
Um, and I was nine, so this is before the internet, but that was the first time that I was exposed to it, which awoken things in me that did not need to be awoken.
00:26:27
Speaker
Yeah. So that was really your first kind of exposure. And obviously, like you said, start up desires, you know, woke desires that didn't need to be. And that obviously then you said it was 93. You were 20 when you when you told your parents. Yes. And so, you know, there was a good chunk of time there where you obviously were
00:26:50
Speaker
We're experiencing same-sex attraction probably in a variety of different ways. I would imagine that was a grueling conversation to have with your parents. As you were sharing that, and you stated it, it is so backwards to what you typically hear.
00:27:08
Speaker
And like you were, I mean, you've already said it, so I don't need to re-say it, but essentially you were saying, you know, the narrative out there is that the Christian parents reject their gay children. And it was really the opposite for you. I mean, your parents were not Christians yet and they completely, you know, rejected you. And it wasn't until they gave their life to Christ that this unconditional love began to pour out of them and they accepted you and loved you and prayed for you. I mean, that's just so backwards to what we typically hear, the more common narrative. And so,
00:27:37
Speaker
I'd love, you know, you really kind of already answered, how did your parents respond? But I'd love you just to, you know, kind of quickly incur, like, what would you say? Because I've got to believe that there are parents that are listening who maybe have kids that are experiencing same sex attraction, and maybe they have kids that have had that difficult conversation with them. And so to the parent that maybe is in that place, and they've had that conversation with a son or daughter,
00:28:07
Speaker
What would you say to them? I mean, how should they respond? What are some very kind of tangible, practical things that you would suggest to a parent that finds themself in the same place your parents did back in 1993? Yeah.
00:28:22
Speaker
And there's also inevitably going to be parents who right now they're like, Oh, this is interesting, but this is not part of our story. But then next month, next year, two years from now, there are part of, you know, Rook Life Faith family where this is going to be real, maybe not now, but in the near future. And so here's, here's one thing, obviously as a parent, you always want to tell your kids, I love you no matter what. Be sure to add that.
00:28:52
Speaker
and emphasize that, but here's some little advice. Be careful after that not to add the word, but when you say, but essentially for your child, you just erased everything you just said, but prior to that, and I understand what parents want to say after that. However, I would save that conversation for another day because
00:29:22
Speaker
it's most likely that you're going to have more conversations and I would actually encourage that. At that moment, assure your child you love them no matter what. Tell me more. I would actually let them to do more of the talking and you do more of the listening and then just say, can we meet tomorrow? I want to talk about this more, process this, but I just want you to leave
00:29:51
Speaker
knowing I love you no matter what. I cannot emphasize that more. And I'm going to tell you why, Patrick, that's so important. Two things. And this is in general, not even in that situation. I'm gay, Mom, Dad. And then this is how you respond. This is in general. Every parent listening right now, please hear me. Two things. Why you need to continuously remind your kids that you love them. Because parents automatically say, oh, my kids know you love them.
00:30:21
Speaker
I'd love them. Two things. Number one, children have amnesia. Yeah. Right. I mean, I don't have kids. That's so true. And I'm sure, right. You tell them something five minutes later. What? Yeah. And I'm only saying that because I was a kid and so I know myself. Number two, seriously. Number two, the world consistently and persistently
00:30:50
Speaker
are telling our children, parents don't love you, especially Christian parents. They're not able to. They're getting it from their peers, which understandably, they're getting it from the school, not understandable. They're getting it from the government. They're getting it from Hollywood. I mean, you see the messages, particularly if you're a Christian parent.
00:31:18
Speaker
So this is why, when there is a tsunami of this misinformation, and it's on a daily, I would even almost say hourly in public schools, on a consistently daily basis. So just to think that I tell them once a day, I love you.
00:31:39
Speaker
I don't even know if that's enough. We have to make sure that we do that. So that's one thing. But for the parent who is maybe this is part of your journey and you're on it and you're here and you're listening, I want to give you encouragement because too often, and I'm gonna take this on ourself as the church, we have blamed you.
00:32:08
Speaker
We have blamed you, mom. We have blamed you as a dad. You are the one to blame. And you're like, where does this come from? What are you saying? How many of, you know, you all have here this and Patrick, you've probably heard this before, something like this. The root causes of homosexuality are absentee father, dominant mother, or abuse in one's childhood. So in essence, we are squarely
00:32:35
Speaker
pointing the finger at and putting on the shoulders, one's own child's sinful behavior on the parent alone. That's not biblical, Patrick. Of course. I mean, you know, you speak to parents and we want, you know, you want to be good, a good parent and a godly parent and, and shape and mold our kids. So bad parenting is going to affect our children.
00:33:01
Speaker
abuse is going to be very detrimental to an individual. However, this is my point. No matter how difficult a childhood is, that is not the root cause for sin. That framework is not biblical, it's Freudian. The correct framework for us to understand this particular issue and humanity's main problem is sin. I don't find anywhere in scripture where we find the root cause
00:33:30
Speaker
of sin to be parents. Now, certainly there can be consequences. That's a different story. Right. But we're talking about the cause of individual sin is not point on the parent. So this is important. If this is you and you're listening now, and you have that child who's either identified as LGBTQ plus, or you have a rebellious child or wayward child, or maybe a successful in the world child, but rejecting Christ, be sure you know this. It's not your
00:34:00
Speaker
fault. Perfect parenting does not guarantee perfect children. Look at Adam and Eve, right? They had a perfect environment. Don't parents even want to create that perfect environment? Kids, they had a perfect environment. They still rebelled. So the job of a Christian parent actually is not to produce godly children, but the job of a Christian parent is simply to be a godly parent. Mother, father, you be godly.
00:34:29
Speaker
you pray your heart out that your children would follow Jesus, and then let God be God. Yeah, so good. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. I know that's going to be a great, great encouragement and such a great reminder, you know, for parents that, like you said, are either in that place or will find themselves in that place next month, next year, five years from now. And so such good, good wisdom there. And so thank you for
00:34:55
Speaker
for sharing that. I, you know, as you were talking, you know, just about, you know, a parent's response and, and, you know, the right way to do that the wrong way, you know, what to avoid. Yeah, I'm curious, like, just, I mean, you spent 11 years, if you were,
00:35:12
Speaker
you know, sort of becoming aware of your own same sex attraction at the age of nine and you were 20. You're talking 11 years of being aware of those desires. And I mean, what was your greatest fear? Like, did you in a million years imagine your parents responding the way that they did?
00:35:32
Speaker
I mean, I would imagine all sorts of things running through your head as you're going through, you know, that amount of time and leading up to that conversation. But what was that like, you know, prior to having that conversation with your parents? Yeah, I mean, it was a little bit forced upon when I was 23. So actually, that's 14 years. Okay. That I came out and was open with my sexuality. But yeah, I did not.
00:36:01
Speaker
I mean, I think I did expect kind of that reaction from my unbelieving parents to that, you know, and kind of that's what the world is saying, you know, your parents will never understand you. And you have this sometimes you rewrite history or you just see what you want to see. I mean, I look back now and they
00:36:27
Speaker
know, it wasn't, you know, as awful as I had made it out to be. But that's what happens. It's our sin nature that does that. But the way that my parents responded later as Christians was absolutely not what I had expected and did not fit the narrative that all my friends were saying because I heard their horror stories. And so, you know, you kind of fit them in or force them into that narrative because that's just
00:36:55
Speaker
And honestly, that's that's just easier for for the prodigal because the more distant are your parents, the more freedom you have to do what you want to do. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's go. I want to transition a bit now because I think one of the things, you know, you know, we live in a culture where it just seems like experience, you know, seems to trump everything.
Theological Anthropology and Sexuality
00:37:16
Speaker
And, you know, this, you know, this sort of this this idea that we need to be our authentic self and be true to who we really are.
00:37:23
Speaker
And I know in the book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, you do a good job of kind of tracing some of the philosophical roots of that in some of the philosophical movements, whether it's thinkers like Freud and Kierkegaard. And there's a long history there that's kind of led our culture to do what it does and think the way that it does today that a lot of people I think are just completely unaware of.
00:37:47
Speaker
And so, you know, you talked about in your testimony that, that, um, you know, we've, we've now, you know, we are what we desire and it's a misplaced identity. And so it just seems like so much in our culture, so many people in our culture, you know, we're just allowing experience to kind of Trump everything else. And so one of the things I really appreciated about your book,
00:38:07
Speaker
in your story is that you talk so much about, again, you know, having a right paradigm or framework. And so I'd love for you to kind of speak to that. I mean, where should this conversation about sexuality really begin? You know, it needs to begin in obviously the Word of God. And sometimes we take more cues from the world and because right now it seems like
00:38:35
Speaker
know, social sciences are really digging deep into not only sexual identity, but gender identity. And then Christians seem to be cuing into those that information more than what the word of God says. And this is oftentimes the reasoning. Well, you know, the Bible doesn't really address sexual orientation or gender identity. And the mistake they're being made is they're not realizing the difference between
00:39:05
Speaker
biblical studies and theological studies. You know, when I went to Moody as a totally wet behind the ears Christian, I didn't know why there was a Bible department and a theology department. I thought, isn't that the same thing? Why don't you just have just one department? Well, it is different. And the difference is, you know, the Bible department looked at what verses say, what chapters say, what books say,
00:39:31
Speaker
Theology then is different in that it's looking at the whole scripture, looking at maybe one particular topic and say, what does the breath of scripture say about this one thing? So for example, what does the whole Bible say about sin? What does the whole Bible say about redemption? And so though there might not be a specific verse on gender identity,
00:39:57
Speaker
You know, there can be something on cross-dressing or, you know, men wearing women's clothes, et cetera, in the Old Testament. But on gender identity, people say, well, there's no verse on it. But what's not true is that the Bible doesn't have anything to say about it. So this is where we then jump into theology. So having that theological foundation is very helpful for us to then think broadly about what
00:40:23
Speaker
God says about a particular topic. So for example, on this topic of sexuality, and yes, the Bible does, even though maybe there's nothing mentioned specifically about gender identity, theology speaks about into gender identity. With same-sex relationships, there are six clear passages in the Bible that do address it. But it's important for us not just to look at what God's know is, we need to look at what is God's yes. So kind of this framework is
00:40:52
Speaker
helping to look at theology, which of course has a bad name. And we sometimes are more busy destigmatizing theology that we're all theologians. But it's good theology that is most practical because people think, oh, theology is impractical. That's bad theology. And so beginning with, I make this statement in my book.
00:41:15
Speaker
that we can't properly understand human sexuality without beginning with theological anthropology. So let me unpack that. Theological anthropology, well, human sexuality. So we're narrowing it down. We're not talking about animal sexuality. Your penguins are sheep, et cetera. We're very specific about human sexuality. To understand human sexuality, I think it's very logical then to say we need to understand humans. We call that anthropology, the study of humanity. Unfortunately, anthropology is a study
00:41:44
Speaker
If you go into any department of anthropology on any big school, you will find that basically they begin with this premise. There is no God. Well, that's a wrong premise. When you begin with the wrong premise, you will have the wrong conclusion. Theological anthropology begins with the right premise that there is a God and that for us to understand humans, we need to begin with God. John Calvin said that.
00:42:12
Speaker
And therefore, we understand the two important aspects of theological anthropology that help us to better understand human sexuality. Number one, we're all created in the image of God with value and dignity. But then second, we're all fallen. We all have a sin nature. With that framework and foundation that really helps us to move forward in understanding sexuality. For example,
00:42:42
Speaker
Even the gay activist, the angry gay activist that hates God is created in his image. And for someone who says, well, I've been this way for as long as remember, I didn't choose this. If we understand and begin with theological anthropology, we can answer that, that well, we've all been sinners for as long as remember. We are all our sinners by nature, not by choice. So that helps us to frame the conversation correctly with good theology.
00:43:12
Speaker
Yeah, that's really good. I think it's so, you know, I think as you've already said, I mean, that's such a different starting point. And in so much of our culture, like you're saying, starts with the absence of God. And so therefore, whatever desires I have, they define me. And so if I'm basically good and I have these desires, then that's a closer step to becoming who I really am and living out of who I am.
00:43:42
Speaker
a very different starting point. And like you said, if you go wrong, there you go wrong in your practice, your orthodoxy, your orthopraxy has to follow your orthodoxy. And so that's a very different, very different starting point.
Balancing Truth and Love in Christian Community
00:43:59
Speaker
And so good. I mean, I think, you know, you get into the New Testament, of course, you know, James chapter four, as you're talking about that, you know, comes to mind, I know you addressed that in the book and just, you know, James argument there is,
00:44:11
Speaker
you know, desires in and of themselves are not bad. It's like you said, but we have fallen desires and those desires need to come under the lordship of Jesus, not define who we are.
00:44:22
Speaker
And that's a very, very different perspective than oftentimes what our culture is operating from. I'd love to know, I think that there are so many Christians today who they love Jesus, they love the church, they love people. And we've seen in our culture, there's a lot of prominent evangelical voices recently who've come out in full support.
00:44:50
Speaker
of same-sex marriage, same-sex attraction, advocating many of the same things, the LGBTQ community, what they stand for. And you see it in the Catholic Church as well with Catholic bishops both in the US and abroad who are pushing for more inclusive faith when it comes to sexuality. And so I think that there's on the one hand, there's this
00:45:12
Speaker
There's a real tension, I think, that Christ followers feel, and it's that old tension between love and truth. And it just seems like we oftentimes don't do a great job of balancing those two, that you find people that are really loving, but they abandon the truth in that or the other way around.
00:45:30
Speaker
they abandon, you know, they're all about the truth and they abandon love, you know, or vice versa. And so, I mean, what do you say to a Christian who really sees no conflict between their faith and so much of what the LGBTQ community stands for and advocates? Well, I think a big mistake that often we as Christians make is the same mistake that the world is making.
00:45:57
Speaker
And it's conflating sexuality with who we are. So almost every person who I know that is now gay affirming, and I would like to, you know, because oftentimes battles are often won by changing, you know, the terms. You know, affirming sounds so good. In actuality, it's rejecting God's biblical sexuality. So those who reject biblical sexuality,
00:46:26
Speaker
Everyone that I know have make this error and I think it's the first error that they're making and they make sexuality Not just a part of who we are but like a core part of who we are because you hear it like this Well, you know God made them this way or you know, they can't help it. This is just who they are And yet sexuality is really not who we are. It's how we are and
00:46:55
Speaker
And so when we understand that there has never ever been any feeling or attraction or behavior or even thought, like we forget into gender identity, that we've made it who we are. Now it can be an aspect of our experience, you know, getting back to what you said at the beginning, you know, the experience reigns supreme. It's no longer solar scriptura. It's solar experience. Yeah. Where, where experience is God.
00:47:23
Speaker
but that's where we are. So I would challenge my friends who reject biblical sexuality and yet say they're Christian, that is sexuality truly who we are? Because there's no other way to explain sexuality apart from, you can't have a person who says I'm gay and they don't have, you know,
00:47:52
Speaker
Uh, desire isn't there. The attraction isn't there. That that's, that's an integral part of that definition. So with that being said, why do we then make attraction that, that big aspect? But I would say, uh, the other thing that I would go to comes to stepping back at the broader picture because the air is not simply not
00:48:17
Speaker
embracing biblical sexuality, not recognizing that same sex, sexual behavior and romantic behavior is sinful. But it's this, it's not truly viewing scripture the way that Jesus viewed scripture, that the biblical writers viewed scripture. Oftentimes people will argue who reject biblical sexuality and say, no, I have a high view of scripture. And yet when you ask them about who they read,
00:48:45
Speaker
When you hear them talk about Scripture, they don't have a high view of Scripture. Either the Word of God is without error or it's not. I think that's important. Either it's infallible or it's not.
00:49:05
Speaker
and those denominations and churches and individuals who have shifted to that, when you look carefully, the real litmus test is how you view the Word of God.
00:49:20
Speaker
Yeah, that's really good. I think it leads me to, you know, another question then is a follow up. And I think that's, you know, how does the church do a better job of not only being a sacred place, but also a safe place, you know, for friends or family members or neighbors who experience same sex attraction? Yeah. You know, when I was not a Christian and I embraced my sexuality,
00:49:48
Speaker
The gay community was one of the most loving, safest places that I knew. They accepted me for being a quirky Chinese guy and they loved me. They didn't love me as the way that God, the holy love, you know, not just loving me and leaving me there, but, um,
00:50:12
Speaker
I sometimes wonder, shouldn't the church be the safest place in the world? We need to be that place where people can be transparent and share, I'm having a tough day. I just sinned or I struggle with something that might make you feel uncomfortable, but I don't want to keep it secret. I need you to walk with me. We really need that.
00:50:40
Speaker
So I think it begins, if we want people to be transparent, we need to be transparent ourselves. Are we fostering that in our communities as Christians? Or are we pretending like everything's fine? Are we putting on our masks every Sunday? Or are we being real? And this is really hard for pastors and church leaders because I don't believe that
00:51:08
Speaker
We need to air our laundry with the whole congregation, but people also need to realize that we're human as church leaders, that we are still sinners and by God's grace, which is why.
Encouragement and Support for Believers
00:51:21
Speaker
People need to see this as well, that I have accountability. My elders are keeping me accountable and my wife or whatever it is as a pastor or for myself, it's my parents. I never travel anywhere.
00:51:33
Speaker
alone. And that's because I'm a sinner. That's because I know what I'm capable of. And I also know I have a target on my back, on my chest, on my forehead. And even though, by God's grace and by His strength, I might not be doing anything specifically wrong at that moment, but I want to be above reproach. And someone, if I'm not
00:51:56
Speaker
if I don't have any other witnesses, who knows what people could say. So I think that's really important that we need to be doing that. But fostering transparency and being real, that's why we encourage cell groups and small groups that then people can dig deep, not only to the message that we're talking over the weekend, but then actually build these relationships in the body of Christ. And I think
00:52:22
Speaker
Those need to be diverse as well, not just, I'm not talking about just race, but of people of different age, people, whether they're married or single, older, younger in age, but also older and younger in spiritual age. We need that. We need the diversity of the body of Christ to help each other and to be real.
00:52:41
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's good. I appreciate that. And I, you know, I want to be sure to get to this, this question and maybe we'll, we'll end with this. I know that we're going to have listeners. I know we do have listeners who are, are likely struggling in this area. And, you know, they're part of our Like Faith family. They, they listen in every week and yet they're, they're dealing with, you know, same sex attraction and they're,
00:53:07
Speaker
really resonating with your story and your journey. And so I'd love for you just to briefly speak to that listener that is in that place. And maybe they've been wrestling with that reality in their own life for a number of years. Maybe it's been longer, but what encouragement or advice would you give to that listener who desires to know and love Jesus and yet is dealing with the reality of their own sexual desires and identity? Well, I want you to know, if you're here, praise the Lord, I'm so glad that God in his
00:53:37
Speaker
Grace brought you here to listen in on our conversation, but know this, you are not alone. The enemy is going to be whispering or shouting in your ear. No one will ever understand you in the church. No one's going to get you. Don't open up. They're going to, you're going to run from you. They're going to kick you out. Don't believe those lies.
00:54:05
Speaker
Satan works best by isolating us and he wants, he wants nothing more than you to stay to self and not tell anyone. And it's going to be scary. I know personally how difficult it is to open up to another believer, but there's no such thing as a lone ranger Christian. We need the body of Christ. So I want to encourage you find a trusted, and this does not have to be someone just like you. Cause I often hear this, you know,
00:54:33
Speaker
a young lady who has same sex or trash, she's like, I don't know anyone like me. You don't have to find people like you. My best friend, he's an associate pastor in Spokane. He's not like me at all. He was my roommate all throughout Moody and he's so different. You know, he was raised in a really, really small rural area, loves
00:54:53
Speaker
outdoor shooting guns. I don't like getting dirty. I like enjoying the outdoors from inside a window. But we find our commonality in Jesus. He loved Jesus, even though he didn't experience any of the mess that I did. That's a huge testimony. He had Christian parents who loved him and pointed him to Jesus. He had kind of just a convicting experience in a church camp, but he never went through the sin that I did, but he knows grace. But
00:55:24
Speaker
if I didn't take the risk to get to know him well, because he's just different. And it's the other way as well. If he didn't take that risk to get to know me, who's very different than him, we would never experience just the grace and the blessing it has been for the past 10 to 12 years.
00:55:52
Speaker
uh, we wouldn't have experienced that if, if we didn't, if we were thinking we got to find someone just like us. So, so find someone to share with an elder, a pastor. Um, but also here's another thing. Don't make your sexuality who you are. The world is telling you this is who you are. It's not, it's a strong experience. It can seem like that's all you think about and it's consuming.
00:56:23
Speaker
But no matter how unchosen or unwanted or strong a desire or attraction, it's never who you are. This is who you are. You're created in the image of God. We fell in Adam. And if you know Christ, you are being renewed by the Holy Spirit every single day more and more into His likeness.
00:56:51
Speaker
That's who you are. And don't ever forget that. So good. So good. Thank you for sharing that. Dr.
Resources and Call to Action
00:56:58
Speaker
Yuan, thank you again for your time. Thank you for your story. And I mean, most importantly, thank you for your commitment to God's word and just the challenge to love well, call to love others and to love God. And so as we wrap up, where can our Root Like Faith family find you online? I have a website. It's my full name, Christopher Yuan, Y-U-A-N dot com.
00:57:21
Speaker
I'm also on social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. I also have a YouTube channel that currently, I hope maybe at the end of 2021, I'm going to be begin releasing some videos that are going to be animated, high quality, short four to six minutes that help kind of answer those unanswered questions. So tune in for those, but also my two books, which you can find anywhere, Amazon or Christian bookstores, et cetera. And it's out of a far country.
00:57:51
Speaker
a gay son's journey to God, a broken mother's search for hope, which I co-authored with my mom. I would say you have to hear her story. I only told a little snippet, but hers is the truly amazing story of God's grace. My newest book, which you mentioned, Patrick, holy six dwelling, the gospel sex design relationship shaped by God's grand story. Actually, it was named 2020 book of the year for social issues by Outreach magazine. And the Lord is really using that. So there's a study guide in the back that people are using in small groups and in families, and even parents are using it with their kids.
00:58:22
Speaker
to really be a framework to better understand biblical sexuality. Yeah, fantastic. Well, we will link to your website, social media channels and our show notes, as well as to your books. And so just so grateful for your ministry, for your writing ministry, speaking ministry. And like you said, it's, I mean, God is using you in some profound ways. And so we're just grateful for your obedience in that area and grateful for your story, commitment to God's word. And so God bless you and thank you again for being on Root Like Faith today.
00:58:52
Speaker
Oh thanks so much for having me on, Patrick.
00:58:57
Speaker
What a great conversation with Dr. Christopher Ewan. As a reminder, if you would like to check out his newest book, Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, that can be found anywhere books are sold. You can also find Christopher Ewan on Instagram at Christopher Ewan or on his website, ChristopherEwan.com. Also, everything we talked about will be at rootlikefaith.com forward slash podcast.
00:59:22
Speaker
Well, again, as we say all the time, we welcome you into our family here at Root Like Faith, and we would love for you to leave us a review or rating and share this podcast with your friends. It's a tremendous help to us as we get the word out about Root Like Faith. All right, friend, well, we hope you have the best week and we will chat soon.