Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Every Situation Has Two Handles (Episode 121)
990 Plays9 months ago
“Everything has two handles, and it may be carried by one of these handles, but not by the other.”
In this conversation, Caleb and Michael talk about these lines from Epictetus.
They talk about how it points the way towards Stoic creativity, offensive and defensive Stoicism ,and role ethics. It’s a simple passage with a lot of depth.
(00:31) Epictetus
(05:05) Creativity in Stoicism
(12:31) Stop Shutting Down
(20:56) A Better Interpretation
(33:54) Marcus Aurelius
(44:00) The Handbook
***
Subscribe to The Stoa Letter for weekly meditations, actions, and links to the best Stoic resources: www.stoaletter.com/subscribe
Download the Stoa app (it’s a free download): stoameditation.com/pod
If you try the Stoa app and find it useful, but truly cannot afford it, email us and we'll set you up with a free account.
Listen to more episodes and learn more here: https://stoameditation.com/blog/stoa-conversations/
Thanks to Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music in the conversations: https://ancientlyre.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Epictetus's Two Handles
00:00:00
Speaker
I like this metaphor of the handles, you know, think about all the things that you're carrying that we're not meant to carry. Think about all the beliefs we're carrying that they're just too heavy and humans are just not meant to carry them because they're false, because they're not true.
Meet the Hosts: K.O. Lattaveris and Michael Trombley
00:00:16
Speaker
Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is K.O. Lattaveris. And I'm Michael Trombley.
Understanding Epictetus's Metaphor
00:00:23
Speaker
And today, Michael's going to be talking about Epictetus's two handles. What's that all about?
Choosing the Positive Handle in Stoicism
00:00:31
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, so famous passage from Epictetus and we're just going to deep dive into it. It's one that a lot of people really find inspiring. So I won't beat around the bush. We'll just get right into it. And we're going to talk about the passage, what it might mean.
Stoic Philosophy: Interpreting Situations Positively
00:00:48
Speaker
go a little bit deeper in interpretation because it's really only about a paragraph and then talk about how it connects with some other aspects of stoic philosophy that we talk about. So hopefully we'll end this conversation just having a deeper understanding of the point that Epictetus is getting at here.
00:01:04
Speaker
But without any further ado, I want to jump right into the paragraph because it grounds the conversation and lets us know what we're talking about instead of talking about it abstractly.
Reflecting on Impressions
00:01:15
Speaker
So in Epictetus's handbook, chapter 43, just a couple sentences, but it's quite a famous one.
00:01:22
Speaker
Epictetus says, and this is the Robin Hard translation, which is one that I really like, I think is accurate, Epictetus says, everything has two handles, and it may be carried by one of these handles, but not by the other. If your brother acts wrongly towards you, don't try to grasp the matter by this handle, that he is wronging you, because that is the handle by which it cannot be carried.
00:01:46
Speaker
but rather by the other, that he is your brother, he was brought up with you.
Storytelling in Stoicism
00:01:51
Speaker
And then you'll be grasping the matter by the handle by which it can be carried. So that's it. One simple paragraph or profound idea, this idea that in any situation, there's really two ways that you can tackle it, two ways that you can think about it.
00:02:08
Speaker
one way that is ungraspable to keep the metaphor, but one way that is, I guess, unhealthy, undesirable, psychologically difficult, and then one handle that is graspable. It allows you to tackle the situation effectively. It allows you to think about it in the right way.
00:02:26
Speaker
And so I wanted to, yeah, I wanted to spend some time with you, Caleb, just talking about this, what it, what it means when we connect it with some deeper ideas in stoic philosophy and how to understand this so you can apply it more
Practical Application of Epictetus's Teachings
00:02:40
Speaker
effectively. Cause it's quite compelling just on its own, just this common sense, like, Hey, there's multiple ways you can think about this. Try to think about it in the better, in the healthier way. That's quite compelling on its own, but I wanted to connect it to some other ideas and stoicism.
00:02:55
Speaker
Any thoughts you have before I dive into it? Yeah, I think that this is a good example of a passage where on the surface it's already powerful. It's already useful. A memorable way to encapsulate the idea that situations have different interpretations.
00:03:17
Speaker
But it's also a good example of the interpretations that Epitetus gives suggests deeper stoic theory and, as we'll get into, I think points out some of those deeper layers to stoicism and ones that have practical upshots. So if you're thinking about, how do I interpret different situations?
Defensive vs. Proactive Stoicism
00:03:39
Speaker
Well, there's a guide here and of course there's, as we'll get into more of this general framework, that's everything this is working from for interpreting for generating these these handles. Yeah, that's a good point. So at the face of it, it's kind of like the dichotomy of control. It's common sense. It's the kind of thing you could tell to someone who has no interest in philosophy and they'd be like, yeah,
00:04:02
Speaker
you're probably right, or that's probably worth thinking about some more. But then you said, as you pointed out, we're about applying stoicism here. And so there becomes these questions of, well, how do I find the second handle? How do I know it's the right handle? And then that requires a deeper understanding of Epictetus to draw that out, because it's not just
00:04:27
Speaker
The second handle is not just going to be the one that makes you feel better. It's not just going to be the one that eliminates the conflict. Their second handle is, you know, Epictetus provides this example here of thinking about, well, think about the fact that he's your brother. Think about your relationship with him.
00:04:45
Speaker
And that connects with Epictetus's role ethics in a deeper way. We'll hit on that. So we'll spend some time now digging into what this means or what I think it means in the context of Epictetus's wider philosophy and Caleb, feel free to jump in interested in what you think here. So to me, this quote is a lesson on storytelling.
00:05:09
Speaker
and how there is a creativity to being a Stoic. It's about the opportunity we have to reinterpret impressions and to tell a different story
Creative Solutions in Stoicism
00:05:21
Speaker
than the impression first provides us or first gives us.
00:05:27
Speaker
Um, so a little refresher on stoic psychology. We have an episode on this, but it's always, it's always important to, I always like going back to stoic psychology because living well is about thinking well. So we got to think about how we think, right? We have to reflect on, on how we think. So in stoic psychology, they think.
00:05:47
Speaker
The most important thing to think about is the fact that we receive an impression before anything happens, before we act, before we have a certain emotion, before we desire something, we always receive an impression. So we're observing the world, we receive a reflection of the world. If you're not a practicing stoic, you might just act on that impression of the world immediately. You know, so your brother's insulted you and you immediately go to get revenge.
00:06:13
Speaker
If you are a practicing stoic, you're taught to reflect upon that impression. Identify, well, that's a story about the world that you're telling yourself. Is it true? Is it something you want to believe? Is it going to be a healthy thing to believe and act upon? Does it correspond to reality? You kind of interrogated it and you asked these questions.
00:06:34
Speaker
If we assent to it as true, we say, yes, my, my, my brother has harmed me and it's a bad thing. Uh, then we experience the emotions that come along with that. We, we have a desire to get revenge. We set about a plan of action. It determines these kinds of downstream psychological effects. And so the stoic goal as described by Epictetus is to make good use of impressions.
00:06:59
Speaker
And this is often understood as assent to true impressions, dissent, or to false impressions, recognize them as false, and suspend judgment when you're unsure. So I think that Repictetus's idea of making good use of impressions is often interpreted in a defensive way. And I think it is defensive. Repictetus uses this metaphor of standing outside a gate
00:07:25
Speaker
And you can think of making use of impressions, like, like being at a border crossing and you're stamping passports and you're like, this passport is true. Well, this passport is counterfeit. Get out of here. You're not coming in. Um, these kinds of things. And that's, that's part of making good use of impressions, but it's very, it's very defensive. It's saying, well, all I do is receive impressions and I'm just the guard at the gate and I let in the true ones and I bump out the false ones.
00:07:52
Speaker
But I think Epictetus is pointing to a third option here with the example of the
Role Ethics and Obligations
00:07:56
Speaker
two handles, which is that we have an ability when we pause and reflect to recontextualize and change the impression.
00:08:04
Speaker
Or I think more technically it would be something like we can actually introduce another impression, because impressions are not just sense experiences, any thoughts we have that we haven't agreed to yet anything we contemplate or consider is an impression right anything we put on the table but don't
00:08:23
Speaker
act on is an impression. So when we sit and we think about it, we're actually introducing counter impressions, counter thoughts, beliefs, where we're having this kind of, well, this creative process of thinking.
00:08:35
Speaker
And when we do that, we can introduce an entirely new impression. And because the world is beautiful and good, according to the Stoics, there's always a beautiful or good or healthy way to think about the situation that we can introduce to replace the bad, false, unhealthy impression.
00:08:56
Speaker
And so I think that's I think that's the way to interpret this exercise is the two handle exercise is not okay, there's not, because if it was the defensive way, it would be, well, there's one handle and think about if you want to pick it up or not.
00:09:13
Speaker
There's one handle, and if it's a false handle, it says your brother harmed you, don't pick it up. If it says that's your brother, you have an obligation to help them or a relationship with them, you should consider,
Reinterpreting Situations Positively
00:09:29
Speaker
then pick it up. But Epictetus is insane. I say it has two handles. I'm stretching the metaphor here.
00:09:36
Speaker
But the thing with the handles, that's the real event in the world. And then the handles, that's the impression. That's the story that we tell about it. And so I think there's this idea that we can tell a different story. We can make another handle if we look and if we reflect. And there's always a handle that we can create or introduce by which we can carry the situation, by which we can take it up.
00:09:59
Speaker
and act on it successfully. And I think a lot of other stoic exercises can be viewed in this constructive way. So I think about things like the obstacle is the way, which is this idea of, well, when you're confronted with a situation, think, well, is there something I can learn from this? Even though it's a difficulty, is there some way that I can benefit? Is there a silver lining to the situation?
00:10:23
Speaker
that can advance my character or the things that I'm wanting to improve. And then there's the view from above, which is this idea of I shift my perspective. So it seems unbearable when I'm thinking down at this perspective. But if I look up and I view myself from above, does it seem so terrible?
00:10:44
Speaker
Does it seem like such a big deal or something that I won't care about in five years, 10 years? So I think we shift perspective, not just to help us ourselves judge impressions as true or false, but we do it to introduce new impressions, to consider alternative things that could be true, to give ourselves a different handle to take up the event.
Applying Stoic Principles in Real Life
00:11:03
Speaker
And this leaves us with something to act upon instead of just, well, I stamped that impression as false and I have nothing to do with it. What do you think of that interpretation?
00:11:12
Speaker
I think that's fundamentally right and well put. You have this idea that you receive an impression and then you move that stage of reflection. And it's then where you can bring to bear your past experience, past judgments. And then as you say,
00:11:31
Speaker
introduce new impressions, new thoughts, ideas, and so on. So it started out in the example as an insult when you bring to mind the fact that this person is your brother, their family member, a number of other traits you can bring to mind. And I think that's
00:11:49
Speaker
With these stoic maxims, you're, in a sense, just bringing to mind different principles that can guide not just the decisions you make, but what other additional impressions you introduce, how you interpret your situation. And I suppose that's not merely a defensive
00:12:15
Speaker
project it's one where you are you know shaping how you see the world or you could say maybe not even you wouldn't say shaping you might say reminding yourself of the way the world the world actually is and then sending yourself up to act in it.
Moving Beyond Defensive Stoicism
00:12:31
Speaker
Yeah and like I don't know if you find this Caleb but I talk to many people who are starting stoicism or you know I see them on the internet on Facebook or social media and there's this like really common thing of
00:12:45
Speaker
shutting down I think like oh I've been practicing stoicism and I feel like very numb and I think that's almost the term for that but I think that's almost like the you know border patrol approach to stoicism right where it's just that that defensive stoicism and I find myself doing that too when situations happen is I think just like you know should I feel this way or not
00:13:10
Speaker
Should I be offended or not? And it almost leaves to this kind of passivity because the ultimate answer almost always is like, no, you shouldn't be offended. No, that can't harm you. No, that shouldn't upset you. And it ends up with this kind of negation. And when everything is negated, there's really nothing left to do.
00:13:30
Speaker
And so, you know, okay, my brother harmed me. Well, stoicism teaches me there's nothing to do there. And I kind of numb myself to that situation. And I really like here. Again, I like this idea of.
00:13:45
Speaker
A, the creativity of saying, well, look, there's a different way we can think about this, which is not just to remind yourself that your first impression is false, but that there are certain other stoic obligations or ways of acting that come along with this. And there's a way again, to pick up the situation, not to leave it again, not to say, well, I don't need to pick up this impression that my brother harmed me. I'm just going to walk away.
00:14:12
Speaker
But no, you're going to pick it up, but you're going to pick it up from a different perspective, which is that that's a family member who's struggling or some idea like this. I, for me, that's a pretty substantial paradigm shift and something really clicked when I was thinking about this passage. Like this idea to me is new and it's like clicked and it's something I'm going to work on. Do you find, do you find a similar way of getting defensive with your stoicism practice? Or is that just, is that, is that just a neat thing?
Stoic Role Ethics and Their Meaning
00:14:38
Speaker
No, I think a number of people will use stoicism purely as a defensive tool, or perhaps even interpret the philosophy as a whole as a defensive one, where it's about protecting yourself from negative
00:14:59
Speaker
emotions but it's also the philosophy also has to be offensive in the sense it's about creating these positive emotions the stoics identified and grasping onto that other handle maybe one way to do that and then i think yeah one goes through seasons where once more in the defensive
00:15:16
Speaker
mode or not. And getting into Stoicism by using its more defensive techniques, defensive framings and so on can be useful. But one reason I found diving further into the philosophy and learning about things like
00:15:34
Speaker
Role ethics and so on was that it gives you a positive vision that you're aiming for not just this picture of ensuring the Right impressions getting in and out but that you are you know positively becoming a kind of person Over time and you have a target to be aiming for something to aspire to so yeah, I think I think It's certainly something I've noticed and one reason I find
00:16:03
Speaker
the ideas about stoic values, the positive stoic principles, useful is that it takes you out of this purely defensive frame. Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. You have a target, so.
00:16:20
Speaker
Your goal is not to not suffer anymore. Your goal is to be a great person. There's some content that comes with being a great person. There's some obligations, responsibilities. There's some ways of dealing with your family when they're being difficult that comes with being a great person. You know, the perfect person isn't the one who leaves family dinner, the least offended. The great person, the sage probably,
00:16:45
Speaker
you know, has some justice, some kindness, some courage to having hard conversations or just like, you know, paying those obligations to the family that they have. Right, right. So one other thing I wanted to say just to connect this more to my practice, it's something I thought about is that
00:17:03
Speaker
The
Balancing Reflection and Action
00:17:04
Speaker
defensive framing, I think subtly shifts how you prioritize what's important in a situation. So if you get angry at someone and respond by asserting yourself or something of that sort,
00:17:23
Speaker
you might initially target your anger as that's what needs to be improved the most. And there is something to that. There's this, you know, a principle that one will make better decisions when the one is not angry. But perhaps, you know, what needs to be improved is however you asserted yourself or perhaps you asserted yourself fine. And the negative judgments about your anger are bleeding into a negative judgment about
00:17:49
Speaker
the way you assert it yourself. So there's a way in which the defensive posture can
00:17:57
Speaker
really put that focus on your own emotional reactions, other people's emotional reactions, and lose sight of the fact that what may be most important about that situation, of course, the emotional reactions go into that, but some other behavior, shifting some other behavior, shifting some other decision that's less obvious may be more important still.
00:18:22
Speaker
Okay, yeah, let's try it. Like that's, I think this is a great example, so I'd love to ground it a little bit more, make it more concrete. So there's this idea that, because the Stoics don't encourage no emotions, right? Well, I mean, we know this. There's, you know, you don't want to be angry and vengeful, but you do want to set boundaries, for example. And.
00:18:46
Speaker
let's say you set a boundary you know i think family is a great example so family does something you said about that you don't like and you set a boundary and it upsets them one way to think about and as a stoic as you said in the defensive way you say well maybe i shouldn't have set that boundary at all because maybe i shouldn't have of
00:19:04
Speaker
stood up for myself. Maybe I shouldn't have cared at all. Was there something wrong with... Maybe this is the problem I have because I think we've talked about this before. I'm a bit less assertive than you, maybe. But you think you go as you were saying, you pull the problem inside yourself. You say, oh, what was the problem that I wanted to set a boundary? And then the way I'm hearing you say it is like, well, no, maybe the question is,
00:19:29
Speaker
you set that boundary in a poor way or the way you actually acted in practice needs some improving and the problem that can exist out in the world doesn't have to always be about our emotions or how we're feeling. You could have manifested a totally legitimate feeling in a poor way.
Stoicism in Family Dynamics
00:19:50
Speaker
Um, maybe, I don't know, maybe you should, you set a boundary by just ignoring somebody and not, and not getting back to them or by being like pretty short with them in a way that was not necessary. And it's like the practicality of how you did that is the issue. And when there's a conflict, that's what you can, that's what you can address not. Okay. Well, was I not being a good stoic by, by doing this at all. Or another concrete example might be in.
00:20:17
Speaker
failure you might see there's that line it's easy to be stoic in failure which I think one way to read it is that if someone fails initially you might think oh well that you can make that protective move that outcome didn't matter as much.
00:20:32
Speaker
Or you can make one that doesn't pay as much attention to your reaction to the failure, but just concretely thinks, how will I improve for next time? And it could be that spending that additional time on improvement as opposed to shifting any negative reactions or positive reactions that occurred as a result of the failure would be a better thing to do. Yeah. This makes sense. I mean, this is the second handle or at least part of how I'm understanding it. Right.
00:21:02
Speaker
Um, so I want to bring it back to the example. One thing you mentioned was role ethics. We have a forthcoming or I have a forthcoming conversation with, uh, Brian Johnson, who literally wrote the book on role ethics. So I'm excited to talk to him about that. But, um, and that, but let's go back to this example and talk about, I think how it connects with role ethics, which is especially important in Epictetus and kind of how we interact in the world and how we.
00:21:28
Speaker
You know, uh, have these, these positive obligations, not just these negative obligations to not get upset. So, um, in the example, let's just say, I just want to make an example. So a family member acts in a cruel, selfish or unjust way towards you. And you have an impression that you've been harmed. This is the two handles example. So maybe they insult, uh, you to the rest of your family. And then the question is, well, what do you do as a stoic? What's the right stoic way to act?
00:21:57
Speaker
Well, you might as a stoic start to play this situation defensively, as we've talked about, and neutralize the impression, which I would say is to not pick up any handle. And so you say, well, I can't be harmed by what's outside of my control. Or you think they may have insulted me, but I don't need a good reputation to be happy. And I think these are all true things, but I think rather these are lessons that tell us not to, not to pick up the first handle.
00:22:21
Speaker
But what if instead we introduce the second hand, which would be ideas like my family member is lashing out because they're struggling. Maybe this is an opportunity to help them or what they're saying is false, but I wonder what happened that made them feel this way, which is to say, you know, maybe it's not true, but, but did I contribute it in some way that's in my control? Is there some way for me to.
00:22:46
Speaker
You know, not aggravate somebody with the sensitivity. And so the second handle gives us an opportunity to act, not just reflect. It gives us an opportunity to exercise virtue and fulfill our roles beyond not being upset. It allows us to pick up the event and act on it without succumbing to passions. And what the content of that second handle looks like when we want to say, well, what does that second handle look like?
00:23:10
Speaker
What should I pick up in this situation? I think that comes down to Role Ethics. As we've talked about before, we have an episode on Role Ethics, but this is Epictetus's idea that when we're looking to what to do, we look to who we are, and who we are is a number of things.
00:23:31
Speaker
We are rational beings. We have this kind of shared identity, this cosmic. If you zoom out, we all have the fact that we're people in common and there's certain roles and obligations that come up with being people. But then as you get more and more specific, there's more and more specific roles. You have your relationship to your family.
00:23:50
Speaker
And that brings certain obligations, your relationships to your coworkers, to your friends. And then we might even, according to Epictetus, have certain obligations depending on our kind of our talents or our interests. So a kind of a role to pursue what we're naturally good at or naturally interested at and a reason to pursue that all else being equal.
00:24:12
Speaker
And so I think that's why the brother example is so important here. You know, when Epictetus describes the other handle, it's like, consider that he is your brother, that he was brought up by you, and then grasp the matter by this handle, which it can be carried. And I think what this is, this is Epictetus saying, look,
00:24:30
Speaker
If we zoom out to the cosmic perspective of being, you know, you're just a rational human being, well, then yeah, you don't need a good reputation to be happy because virtue is all that matters. You don't, you can't be harmed by what's outside of
Implementing Stoic Principles in Family Disputes
00:24:45
Speaker
your control. And, you know, certainly what your family thinks of you is not, is not up to you when we talk about up to you in that, in that strong, robust sense. But there is this other perspective that you can approach the situation from, which is the perspective of.
00:24:59
Speaker
your role as a, as a brother or sister, your role as an immediate family member and the context that come with that, that you were brought up together. You know, what, what do you know about this person? What have you experienced together and what kind of obligations come from that? And so I think this is Epictetus's reminder to, I mean, I might be reading, I might be reading into this a little bit. I don't want to over interpret, but I certainly think this is what he's alluding to is to not
00:25:27
Speaker
Don't think of it the wrong way, but then also don't think of it in this kind of zoomed out perspective, but apply your role to the situation. And if you think about it in terms of your role, then you can pick it up. You can act upon it. You can be proactive in the situation and how you should act becomes apparent because if all you're thinking is, well, you know, sticks and stones.
00:25:47
Speaker
can break my bones, but words can never hurt me. If this is all you're thinking about when somebody insults you, there's nothing to do than just not be insulted, right? But if you think, ah, that's my brother. I know what happened to them when we were kids that makes them the kind of person that gets like this. I know how to help them because they're family. I have intimate knowledge of that. If you bring that kind of perspective in, then these obligations or these ways of acting reveal themselves.
00:26:15
Speaker
The unfortunate thing about stoicism is those are all going to be really particular, right? I can't, neither of us can sit here and tell anybody how to, how to behave with their brother or their sister or their parents, right? Like that's going to, maybe the best thing to do is to cut yourself off. Maybe the best thing to do is to help a lot more than you're helping. That's all just going to be particular, but you, what it looks like reveals itself when you think about it, I think about it in a rural ethics perspective. You think about it in that level. That's when you can discover the second handle, I think.
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, well put and very important. Maybe one way to try, I'll try boil down fundamentally and then let me know what you think about this. So I think in a way, the first handle is all about
00:26:58
Speaker
beliefs that the external world can harm me. And there are many principles, strategic strategies for dissolving that belief. You can't be harmed by what's outside of your control. What you are is the kind of thing that is not harmed by externals. You have these kinds of principles and you have a past history of not giving in to adversity and you can use that as motivation to continue to persist.
00:27:28
Speaker
That's how you might address that in a defensive manner. But this second handle is, if you want to put it in the traditional Stoic sense, nature has given you a part to play in this situation. And the next move is to just remind yourself of what are the facts of the situation, what are my roles, and then how do I play that part well? How do I make those decisions?
00:27:56
Speaker
that, uh, you know, amounts to me living in accordance with nature and the traditional stoic sense. Another way to put it is just that, you know, more, more simply, whatever situation you find yourself in, you have a role to play or there is a virtuous next action. And then grasping on to that side of the situation, as it were, is what, what will, what can guide one into a positive action.
00:28:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think that was, uh, well, some summarized and there's that other point there that, that it's, it's bearable, right? Like it's the, you can always carry that handle. You can always carry that load. Right. Right. It's not like.
00:28:42
Speaker
Oh well, one handle is woe is me, things are sad, and the other handle is you have this unbelievable, unbearable task in front of you that is also anxiety inducing. The other handle is, yeah, you have a role to play.
00:29:00
Speaker
But that role to play is doable. It's bearable. If you think about it in the proper way, it should be joyful, actually. It should be a pleasure to do because you're exercising what you were meant to do. You're exercising what you particularly have the ability to do. Again, grounding in the example of your family.
00:29:25
Speaker
You particularly might know how to help or you particularly might know how to navigate the situation well, or what that person needs or, you know, what you need given the history. But that, but that situation is bearable and that situation is, is, is, I mean, I guess a bearable in, in, in like keeping the metaphor. It's the kind of thing you can carry over time. You can continue to use and.
Metaphors in Understanding Stoic Principles
00:29:49
Speaker
Because, you know, I like this, I like this metaphor of the handles, you know, think about all the things that you're carrying that are, were not meant to carry. Think about all the beliefs we're carrying that they're just too heavy and humans are just not meant to carry them because they're false, because they're not true.
00:30:08
Speaker
And, you know, put them down basically is step one of stoicism. It would just be like, look, you know, you can't, you can't carry these. I think I'm imagining someone with all the grocery bags, you know, you can't carry them like this, you know, you need, uh, you need this. But if you put them like this, you can, you can be yourself. And it's this idea of.
00:30:31
Speaker
You're the exact same person, priestosism and post-tosism. You're carrying the exact same amount of weight. You've just, the exact same amount of obligations, relationships, roles, but you've just rearranged the weight. You know, maybe you've put it in a backpack. Maybe you've, you know, you've got it against, uh, you know, like, uh, on a, on a wooden staff across your back, like a squat bar. You've arranged in a way that you can carry it and that it's, it's, it's bearable and sustainable.
00:30:59
Speaker
And I think that's an interesting metaphor, this kind of rearrangement of beliefs. I'm pushing the metaphor here, but this rearrangement of the way that you respond to the world so that it becomes bearable, becomes carryable, instead of our initial one where it's like, I can't do this. I can't care about my family. I can't be in this because it's just too painful. And it's like, well,
00:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's unbearable because because of the way that you're holding it because of the way that you're grasping it But if you switch to a different a different way of reflecting on it, it will be bearable Yeah, no, no, I think that's right and it brings out the some of the references to stoic theory which is this idea that you can live well and whatever circumstance because living well is a matter of
00:31:48
Speaker
acting virtuously. I think that's what one can, what's implied by the principle that there is a handle in any situation that can be carried, that can be used. That's a reference to this type of picture that you can be happy in any situation that you find yourself in.
00:32:09
Speaker
and remind yourself that others have been in situations that have been similar and been able to grasp onto the positive interpretation of their situation and act well. So I think that's an inspiring one and a useful metaphor.
00:32:30
Speaker
Yeah. And then maybe, you know, easier lives are, are lighter weights, but even the light weights, you know, even if something's 20 pounds, if the handle is like, I don't know, is whatever it's slippery or, um.
00:32:45
Speaker
not easily graspable, you could drop these things. And then if the weight is 200 pounds, well, you just need to make sure the handle is perfectly arranged and then it is bearable. As you said, somebody else has carried it before. And the stow example here would be that everybody's kind of the same strength. It's not like, well, that person's bigger than me because we're all
00:33:05
Speaker
people with rational faculties. We all have access to the ability to reflect, to think carefully. So it's not like, oh, well, they're, they're, they're 300 pounds. Of course they could pick this up. What am I going to do? It's like, well, no, you're just as strong as them. You just need to figure out how to access that, uh, by practicing stoicism, right?
00:33:26
Speaker
Great. So yeah, no, that is inspiring. I feel, I feel motivated. I'm going to go out and embrace the day with this, with trying to pick more things up. I think, I think that's my, that's my definitely my takeaway from this is, is not, I think I've done enough stoicism that I know not to pick up the wrong handle, but I'm going to try to pick up more, more right handles. I'm going to try to pick up more second handles is my takeaway.
00:33:54
Speaker
And I wanted to connect this to, apart from Marcus Aurelius, because it's not just an Epictetus thing that connects throughout the Stoics. So one thing we'd like to talk about, and Caleb, you really introduced me to this exercise. I never thought about it too much until we started chatting on here.
00:34:13
Speaker
But this reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' decomposition exercise. So that's what when Marcus Aurelius talks about breaking things down into their core parts. So there's that famous quote where he
Epictetus vs. Marcus Aurelius
00:34:26
Speaker
talks about the royal robe of the Romans or the emperor's robe. That's a purple robe. It's just sheep's wool dyed with the blood of shellfish.
00:34:38
Speaker
Um, or there's this metaphor, you know, he's at a feast and he's like, this is just a dead pig on the table. This is just the carcass of an animal. So there's this idea of breaking things down. You know, I like to think of, I like to think of this idea of like, you know, insult is just, just the sound made by somebody's throat or, you know, the sound made by an animal's throat. And if you think of that in like a objective terms, like why is that ruining my day? What's the kind of air, uh, waves in the air made by a set of lungs.
00:35:06
Speaker
That's the decomposition technique. And so you end with this description. But I think the two handle exercise, and I think that's the ultimate defensive posture, right? It's to take this, it's to deconstruct everything until it has no meaning that can hurt you.
00:35:27
Speaker
And I think that's really good if you're the kind of person who's getting hurt all the time. It's really good if you're the kind of person that's feeling very sensitive to things or getting caught up in stories. But I think the two handle exercises this idea to, okay, well, let's add an interpretation. We've stripped away the false story. So let's add a story or let's add a way of thinking about the situation that involves you and involves some obligations and some actions. This is this idea that, you know,
00:35:57
Speaker
Don't think about it. You know, if your brother's harmed, you don't think about the decomposition exercise would be, you know, a person has done what they think is right or a person has acted the way people tend to act, something like this. And it's like, no, we'll introduce a new story. He is your brother. You were brought up together. Reintroduce an interpretation or some perspective to it.
00:36:22
Speaker
And when you do that, that's you layering back on your roles. You're not stopping at the decomposition. You're layering back on your roles, your responsibilities, and then that gives you something to pick up and something to act on. And I think it's a good complement to the decomposition technique.
00:36:41
Speaker
Which one you need to practice depends on, you know, it depends on how the situation depends on how frustrated you are and depends on your level of progress. Maybe if you're starting stoicism, okay, you're caught up in a lot. You're very anxious all the time. Let's just work on decomposition. But then you're at this point where you're starting to feel like, okay, well, you know, I'm numb or I'm defensive, right? So some is making me not care about things. Okay. Well, let's start looking for that second handle. Let's start picking things up again with some healthy ways to act upon them, healthy ways to introduce ourselves.
00:37:11
Speaker
Uh, what do you think about that? Yeah, that seems on point. If you want to connect this, uh, Marcus Aurelia is similar. He often reminding himself not to tell himself anything more than what his primary representation is
Challenges as Opportunities for Growth
00:37:27
Speaker
telling him. And that's that idea to see things as they are in an objective and impartial way.
00:37:34
Speaker
And it's a protective posture, not just against these false negative stories we tell ourselves, but also very likely positive ones other people might be telling himself or ones that he might be telling himself about his power, his position that may also be false. You know, Seneca always has that reminder.
00:37:57
Speaker
not to trust prosperity and some of these many of these positive stories can be misleading too so there's that reminder to return to the you know this impression stripped down in its essence you know what what's the world telling you
00:38:15
Speaker
And he does that again and again in the meditations. But he also reminds himself to, you know, he has this line, if you leave all of the past behind you, if you abandon the future to Providence, and if you arrange the present in accordance with piety and justice, all the happiness you are seeking by such a long roundabout way, you can have it all right now. And that reminder, I think,
00:38:44
Speaker
of piety and justice is another way to grasp onto the second handle that we've been talking about. It's that picture of thinking about the world as
00:39:00
Speaker
a place that's provided for his happiness is a beautiful place. And then he has the ability to act with justice in whatever situation. And that's where, you know, you get this positive stance towards the world.
00:39:20
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's where you get not just the defensive aspect, but the one that points you, guides your actions. And if you can get into the flow where your actions start matching that, then you're making serious progress on the stoic path, I think. Yeah, that's great. So maybe I've been talking about the second handle as being pretty particular.
00:39:47
Speaker
Uh, you know, think about the fact that they're your brother. I don't know. Think about what happened between the two of you in grade seven. And your point is something along the lines of, well, there could be the second handle that's also cosmic or the second handle. That's also.
00:40:01
Speaker
There can be another way to think about the world that doesn't, it's ultimately going to connect with our
Joy in Living Stoic Values
00:40:06
Speaker
roles, right? Because it's going to be proactive, but it doesn't just have to be these particular roles. It can be still, well, I'm going to think about this from, you know, by connecting with kind of piety, God, justice, these kinds of things come through this kind of perspective as well. Is that, is that what you meant?
00:40:26
Speaker
Right, right. I think there's a, you made this point earlier and before you started recording that you, you have these different level of roles and I suppose you can latch on to either the more specific one, you know, these other roles given my specific.
00:40:41
Speaker
specific relationships, specific circumstance, or these more broad roles that are given by human nature, by nature itself, this focus on act virtuously. And I think both of those can play the role of being action, action guiding, or at least reminding you, pointing you towards the right action.
00:41:06
Speaker
I think there's perhaps some reason to eventually you need to get more specific, but those more general reminders can center you to ask those more specific questions.
Integrating Stoic Principles into Daily Life
00:41:21
Speaker
So in your example of the situation of the brother, you might, instead of thinking about when they insult you, well, I can't be harmed, I was outside of my control. Instead, you might be thinking,
00:41:33
Speaker
My brothers are lashing out because they're struggling or they have this kind of behavioral pattern. That's sort of specific insight. But then there's that question, what brought you to that insight? Maybe you were able to ground yourself in a more general way and then from there.
00:41:48
Speaker
move to my role is to be an excellent brother because you reminded yourself that my role is just to be virtuous in this situation. What does that look like? It looks like being an excellent brother. What can I remind myself of? Well, I know he's struggling because he has this behavior pattern and my next move is probably this and so on.
00:42:11
Speaker
So what I was taking from that is that you can always kind of abstract out a level. Like, we don't want to, I don't want people listening to this episode and being like, okay, well, I can either the second handle only exists if it's like my best friend and I know exactly what to do with them. You know, even if it's somebody you're just meeting or somebody that you don't know super well, there's this idea of well, you can always just, you know,
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah, you know best how to handle your best friend, but if it's even just a random person, you can think of them at the level of just a person, right? And we have this obligation to be just and to be prosocial, to be kind, right? And so you can abstract out a level and that will reveal kind of a second handle, a second way to take the situation up.
00:42:55
Speaker
even if they're not you know we were grounding this in a family example and you know your family so well and you have such clear ties to them but you can have those ties to a random person that you meet for the first time just that ties at the level of person to person not at the level of uh you know
00:43:14
Speaker
brother to sister or something like this. And there's certain obligations that come from that or certain, you know, just my obligations, I mean, like, you know, ways that you things you want to do to be a good person,
Appreciating Epictetus's Teachings
00:43:25
Speaker
right? Not these not these restrictions, but just like, if you want to act virtuously, if you want to be a great person, a great person would do would be kind here, or a great person would be just here.
00:43:37
Speaker
I think I use that kind of obligation language a lot when we talk about rules, but it is important to think of them as being proactive, not this like, not this requirement or this weight over you, but just to say, if you're going to be, when I say an obligation, I just mean like,
00:43:52
Speaker
It's the same way when we talk about like a great basketball player does this. And if you don't do that, if you don't show up to the game, you're not a great basketball player. So a great basketball player has the obligation to show up, as I'm saying, like a great when I say you have obligations, I'm saying a great brother does this kind of thing. And if you want to be a great brother, you're going to do these great kind of things as well.
00:44:15
Speaker
Great. I thought that anything else you wanted to add on the, on the two handles. I thought that was a, that's the nice thing about Epictetus's handbook is because it's like, uh, because it's a summary of the discourses in a way.
00:44:26
Speaker
As
Closing Remarks and Further Exploration
00:44:27
Speaker
you said, I think you put it really well. It's the kind of thing that can be, I recommend it to people. I think it's the kind of thing that can be really common sense, kind of inspiring when you read it as a non-stoic, but most of these things you can dig into a lot deeper as well. Well, almost certainly all of them you can dig into a lot deeper. So that was a deep dive in just a couple of sentences, which is kind of fun.
00:44:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think if you're newer to stoicism, it's always the handbook is useful for getting these practical techniques, getting an initial picture of what stoicism is. And then if something, if you're more experienced with stoicism, returning to the handbook and walking through that exercise of, you know, what are those deeper ideas? What kind of stoic theory is Epictetus referencing here in these nuggets is a good one.
00:45:23
Speaker
Well, let me just read it again and let's end on the paragraph again and see if it has a different context for those listening or comes off a bit different. So this is again, it's chapter 43. Everything has two handles, and it may be carried by one of these handles, but not by the other. If your brother acts wrongly towards you, don't try to grasp the matter by this handle, that he is wronging you, because that is the handle by which it cannot be carried.
00:45:50
Speaker
but rather by the other, that he is your brother, he was brought up with you. And then you'll be grasping the matter by the handle by which it can be carried. Awesome. Thanks, Michael.
00:46:05
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become.
00:46:23
Speaker
more stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyer.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.