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Ep 44: How an Opera Singer Became a Legal Ops Pro: Cory Clines, Legal Operations Consultant
68 Plays7 months ago
How can training to be a professional opera singer translate into the legal operations profession? How do you build a career in legal ops without any formal training? And what role should technology play–if any–in a strong legal ops program?
Cory Clines, Legal Operations Manager at Campari Group, was able to transfer valuable lessons from his life as a conservatory-trained opera singer into his fifteen-year-long career in legal ops, like the importance of collaboration and the need for a shared vision among teams. In his current role and at former companies like Advance Publications and Lloyd’s, Cory was able to leverage his love of technology into managerial roles that revolutionized legal processes with efficiency-maximizing software.
Listen as Cory discusses how to develop strong relationships with tech vendors, building legal ops teams from scratch, earning the trust of your GC, the best ways to run an RFP, and more.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-44
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Training as an opera singer: 4:01
Considering skill transfer from opera to legal operations: 12:12
Moving forward by earning the trust of your GC: 14:46
Deciding to leverage technology in legal ops: 16:34
Running RFPs from an in-house perspective: 18:59
Identifying new opportunities to advance your legal ops career: 22:05
Advice to legal ops professionals who feel pigeonholed in one aspect of the role: 24:27
Considering how curiosity affects your work: 27:23
Questioning the need for tech expertise as a legal operations manager: 28:47
Looking back at tech implementations that went wrong: 31:20
Building a legal ops team from scratch at Campari: 38:14
Using tech to drive legal ops process: 41:15
Book recommendations: 46:01
What you wish you had known when you started in legal ops: 47:58
Connect with us:
Cory Clines - https://www.linkedin.com/in/corywilliamclines/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Outdated Invoicing Processes at Lloyd's
00:00:00
Speaker
And so my first response was, but why are we doing all of this manually? Literally printing out PDFs of invoices for signature, putting it in an interoffice mail envelope, and sending it across the ocean to get paid. Wow. like Literally. And then just hoping it gets paid. No visibility of when it would be. or It was like a meal room. it was That's amazing, actually. in it and And I knew that there was tech that could do this, even from my experience in the restaurant industry.
00:00:41
Speaker
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Corey Clines' Unconventional Career Path
00:01:29
Speaker
How can training to be a professional opera singer translate to the legal operations profession? How do you build a career in legal ops without any formal training? And what role should technology play, if any, in a strong legal ops program? Today, on the abstract, I am joined by Corey Clines, one of the most interesting guests I think we've had to date. Corey was trained as a classical opera singer at conservatories in upstate New York and Boston, and he had a first career in fine dining and as a sommelier to support himself between gigs. Upon moving to New York City, he stumbled into legal operations, first at Lloyd's, the big insurer marketplace, which folks have probably heard of. And then as a consultant and at the law firm that serviced Conde Nast. Most recently, he's been at the Campari Group. He has about 15 years of experience building legal ops programs across all of these sort of huge institutions' brand names. Corey, thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you so much, Charlie. I'm very glad to be here. Appreciate it.
00:02:34
Speaker
Everybody I think knows Campari as the maker of well Campari and Aperol and all of these cool alcoholic beverages. Let's start off light, not talking about legal ops. What's your go-to cocktail? Oh, good question. For a long time, it was a Campari soda in the summer, and I'm not just chilling on behalf of my company here. of and And old-fashioned in the winter, but um over the last few years, I've really switched over to margaritas and tequila-based cocktails. um I love a Campari or a Grand Marnier margarita in particular. It's very tasty. Yeah. So, but yeah, Campari is a big
00:03:14
Speaker
um player. They've got a lot of different brands that I didn't even know about when they started, so it's been good to learn about those. and yeah ah Cocktails are great. but leave it What's a good Campari brand tequila? i mean Is Grand Marnier also a Campari spirit? It is. Yep. Yep. Tequila Espolone is our biggest one right now. And then there are a couple of more craft ones like Mainda is really great. Cabo Wabo is on the high end. And then they're doing a lot in the mezcal area. So a lot of goous spirits it's a big growth area. Very cool. I'm sure that the company, you know, happy hours and parties are are fun. Yes, they're not. There's plenty of them. We'll just put it that way.
00:04:00
Speaker
That's great. Okay.
Opera and Legal Ops: Similarities and Skills
00:04:01
Speaker
So you, you trained as an opera singer, which I really, I've got to ask you about cause I, first of all, I don't know if I'd ever met an opera singer before and certainly not someone who also has a profession in illegal space who who trained as an opera singer. When did you discover that as, as a passion? and And I'm also curious, like, what are some of the best performances that you've had the opportunity to give before? Thanks. Great question. Um, i I didn't discover opera until undergrad, about halfway through my undergraduate degree. um It wasn't something I was aware of growing up, really. There was, like, country was much more the predominant music. um But I was musical, have a a musical family, so I grew up playing the cello. And I started singing in, like, junior year of high school, towards the end of high school. And when I got to college, I was singing in the big choir just for fun. And then I think,
00:04:56
Speaker
second semester, I was drafted into singing in the chorus at the Conservatory, which is the Eastman School of Music. And I say drafted because it literally was, it's like, hey you, you have low notes, come sing with us because we need your low notes. And that kind of was like the beginning of the end for me. Like I got i got hooked, we'll put it that way. even though it's a kind of ah a foreign art form, well, it is legit literally foreign, but also unusual in the US opera. But it's, it's really rewarding. It takes a lot of studying, there's a lot of language involved. So it really just got my curiosity and I was like, Oh, I can I can get paid to do this and I like doing it. So I got there.
00:05:37
Speaker
And favorite performances, I would say like solo performances. I've done Mozart's Figaro. I'm in 2018. That was a big accomplishment. That's a really hard role and very, very rewarding. More recently, because I do have ah a corporate job, I've just been doing a few things, but last year I got to sing with New York City Opera Chorus at Carnegie Hall, which was pretty cool. Absolutely. So other than that, those are um some highlights. Candide is one of my favorite kind of opera slash musicals. I think I've done that show more than any other by Leonard Bernstein. And so, yeah, that's some some highlights. But I've done a lot cool but it that way. oh That's amazing. I would be remiss if I did not say that Gaston and Beauty and the Beast, even though not opera, is also one of my favorite roles because that's just super fun.
00:06:31
Speaker
Do you have to learn like Italian and Latin to succeed? Yeah. we We do diction classes, as they call it in language classes, where we'll spend a semester on Italian and a semester on French, German. Latin kind of comes with Italian. um But yeah, we do have to study. i could There was a time when I could converse in Italian, but not anymore. um If I were to go to Italy, I'm sure I could get it back. But yeah, we have to learn all of the Romance languages. And every once in a while, you have to sing something in Russian or in people. You never really know what the gig is. Okay, that's that's amazing. So you picked this up in sophomore year of college. Do you have to now learn all of these languages?
00:07:14
Speaker
Yes, and that was very much a surprise. i was like oh i there There are a lot of programs where you can go and immerse yourself and go like study in Italy and learn it. That wasn't really an option for me, so I had to do it the hard way, just taking classes. And um they do offer addiction classes at conservatory where you come and you learn how to say things, but that doesn't mean you understand it. So that's the other part is you have to combine that language skill of being able to say the words with what am I actually talking about in this own or singing about as it may be. And um it's just really so without being able without knowing the language intimately and speaking it fluently, you kind of have to make up your own subtext, right? Like you have to make up like what I'm singing about and this is why it's important for me as this person singing this character to sing it.
00:08:06
Speaker
But yes, we have to know Italian, French, German, Latin for if you're if you're doing a church gig every once in a while, some other languages like Russian or I say in Yiddish last year. And then there's a Spanish variant of our opera called Zorzuela. So you you never really know what the gig will have until you get the gig. So legal operations must be really easy for you because that sounds, I mean, I took Latin in middle school, high school, and a little bit in college as well. And I exited those, you know, eight cumulative years with probably like barely proficiency in being able to write, let alone being able to speak. Certainly not able to sing. That's, that's amazing.
00:08:47
Speaker
its It comes in handy mostly just when it's nice to be able to surprise people with a phrase, even if I can't carry on a conversation, just like to say thank you in in a different language. But yeah, it is definitely a different part of the the brain. I wouldn't say it's made legal ops easy, but it has been better so for sure. Is there are there any skills the that that you picked up, things that you that you learned as you were getting good at opera or training around opera that you feel like have overlapped with or that you apply today in the legal ops work that you do? Absolutely. Kind of at the the meta level, the biggest level, I think the two things that really translate the best are collaboration and different blend.
00:09:32
Speaker
And I'll talk about collaboration first in that you you literally can't make opera alone. It's impossible. yeah there are There are dozens, if not hundreds of people behind the scenes and in the cast and in the orchestra, and you really need all of those people to be working together to
Building Trust and Using Data in Legal Ops
00:09:48
Speaker
make a performance happen. Similarly, legal operations can't work in a vacuum. You have to involve those other business functions and collaborate to reach a common goal. So I've even pitched this at Campari. Like this is kind of how we translate. It's like, okay, we're putting on the legal transformation show, right? We are, we're on the stage, but we need to rely on finance. We need to rely on it. We need to rely on the whole global legal team. You know, it's just an analogy, but it really does work. It gets people to be like, Oh, right. Like I'm not just doing my job, we have to kind of all work together to make these big changes happen. ah huh And then with discipline, it's a tricky word, and it's also trickier to get to get to make it happen. in In music, everyone must follow the same ti time signature and be in the same key. If they're not, yeah then you just hear chaos.
00:10:38
Speaker
So that's the discipline in music is like you you have to do what's written on the page in yeah corporate setting changing those ways of working is it's hard especially when there's new technology so you you have to get people on board and willing to embrace the change so getting everybody basically reading the same music. right instead of saying well but I like this piece of music and i like this piece of music like no work we're all following the same piece of music now because if you try to force that on them it won't be successful. But there also have to be consequences so that's kind of the flip side is like it's getting by and but when somebody says oh i'm just not going to do that.
00:11:17
Speaker
That's when you go to your GC and you say, okay, so what are the consequences? if If everyone isn't following the same rules, then you won't get the desired results. So yeah, that's kind of at the highest point is like collaboration and discipline. yeah it's It's really important. I love that idea of describing it as a show. I mean, I've often talked about, I'm very passionate about the idea that internal communication matters a lot and presenting your wins internally matters a lot and thinking about how you roll out policies or roll out process matters. All that matters just as much as whether or not you reached the right decision or decided on the right process or the policy is perfect. I love this idea that it's that it's a show. yeah It's the optics. It's like you're literally changing the face of legal at the organization. So hu it is a show. it's it's yeah you you You have to change the way you look to the people that you're working with and get them to embrace that. We're going to talk a lot about today you know some of the best practices and and things that you've learned over the course of your career. But I want to i want to take a step back to when you were transitioning from opera and and working in in restaurants and wine to legal ops.
00:12:26
Speaker
And your first job, which was at Lloyd's, actually wasn't in LegalOps. It was his attempt, which turned into an EA job for the GC. And that to me is really interesting because, you know, going from attempt to EA and then then ultimately sort of scaling into LegalOps means that you really earned the trust of that general counsel. Talk to me a little bit about some of the lessons that you learned there about how you go about building trust. with the GC. Sure. At Lloyd's, it was a great learning experience. And um the role really grew very quickly. And it was because I did have the GCs for us, I was I was his guy Friday, you know, whatever he needed, I would try and find a solution. And that's very common for a lot of executive assistants, right? They're they're there to support the GC. But then it started to go beyond that. He's like, okay, you're great at helping me with everything I need. But
00:13:19
Speaker
the organization needs some more help and I think that you could you could handle this. And so, you know, kind of dipping my toe into that was project management and restructuring of their files, their digital files were just a mess. And I didn't do anything magic. It was literally just like, okay, well, look let's just set these up so they work, ah so everybody can find what they're looking for. And this was before DMs were in place in-house and nobody was talking about document management really. for in-house teams. So, and just general organizational help for the legal team. And I think that that same paradigm is really useful for all LegalOps and GC relationships. It's be willing to listen and address their needs so that they look good. And those needs will change throughout your relationship. But it's just like, okay, I'm willing, I'm here to help. Let's let's make some positive change.
00:14:11
Speaker
And the the biggest thing I would say is make sure that you and the GC share the same vision, that legal ops and the GC are completely aligned. sure Because if you don't, then it's not likely to be a successful relationship. Again, to that, my point about about consequences. Do you have some flexibility with other lawyers on the team where you can kind of there can be some pushing. There is some ebb and flow and little pushback but if you're gc and you just don't agree then it's not going to be successful so either you have to come to around to their way of thinking or convince them to come to yours.
00:14:45
Speaker
either right What did you find worked when you were trying to make a case with with a GC? Is it data? Is it understanding where the business is headed and making a sort of business case? What what what are the different sort of, you know, errors you have in your quiver when you're trying to make a case for something to it to a GC? A couple of things. Data is definitely the top of my list, right? Like, you don't know what your problem is if you can't quantify it. And i talk about this a lot and sometimes lawyers roll their eyes and i know but we can just like does that need to be captured can't you just email us about that i'm like no. You really want that like let's capture it so you know what to do with it so data is always like that's a way in and i think that you know when you're looking at different technology solutions i'm always asking okay what's gonna be the most useful that are the soonest.
00:15:36
Speaker
right and i know we're gonna talk about our keys and not so i'll hold up there but i think that's that's really like okay let's let's get some information so that you can make a decision about where you want to go and coming into an organization sometimes you have that information sometimes you have to literally go get a four thousand line spreadsheet dump. and go through that line by line to be like, oh, this is what your outside counsel spend might have been. Like, let's let's try and make that better. So there are there are different ways in, but I think that it's really about, yeah, let's let's get some data and make those data-driven decisions. And we hear this a lot on legal ops, data-driven decisions.
00:16:16
Speaker
but it is important because if you just start doing things and making changes you may be solving for something that is like maybe low hanging fruit but also you're not getting any return on that side right sure so it's like where where's the biggest bang for your buck but also let's say let's try to figure out what the biggest problems are. As you think about solving those sorts of problems, was there an inflection point? Because you're an EA and and then you're sort of transitioning into taking on more of these projects that are ops related and solving solving problems for the GC. Was there an inflection point where you decided, I can't just brute force this, I need to leverage technology?
00:16:54
Speaker
Absolutely.
Tech Transformation at Lloyd's: From Manual to Digital
00:16:55
Speaker
There was a desire to get a to reduce outside counsel spend you know from from the main corporation in in the UK saying, okay, Lloyd's of America, you're spending too much money on outside counsel. So I was asked to like look into that, see like if we could figure out if we were spending too much money or give some some data to to back up what we were actually spending. And so my first response was, but why are we doing all of this manually? right literally yeah literally printing out pds of invoices for signature putting it in an inter office mail envelope and tighting it across the ocean to get paid wow like literally and and then just hoping it gets paid no visibility of when it would be or it like a meal room it was that's amazing actually. and it
00:17:41
Speaker
and And I knew that there was tech that could do this, even from my experience in the restaurant industry. like house This is pretty straightforward. So I was like a little shocked that the legal profession was so far behind. So that was really, I was like, okay, so can we look at tech options? And the GC was like, oh, yeah, of course. Let's do that. We trialed one e-billing software for, I think, six months, i maybe a little longer. And it was wasn't perfect, but it was enough that everybody loved the concept and the data that we were getting. So we then just engaged consultants to do an RFP for e-billing. And that ex exposed me to a lot of other solutions and really allowed us to make the correct choice for Lloyds, rather than just buying something and implementing it. ah Sure.
00:18:29
Speaker
so it was Yeah, that that inflection point was, okay, you want me to solve for this, but like, there's just paper. just And that was also the case that the law firm I went to, Sabin Brabantan Gould, which is now part of Advanced Publications, was they were completely on paper. And so it was making that transition. It just, there's so much efficiency to be gotten or to be gained by doing e-billing. It's really like, it's kind of shocking that it's taken the legal industry so long. You talk about running these these ah RFPs. Obviously, we participate in a lot of RFPs. From the in-house perspective, from your your side, how do you think about running an effective ah RFP process? like what ah What are the tips that you have for others? or Where are places where you think that folks often make mistakes that that they could sort of easily solve?
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah, ah good question. I wish I had like the answer. um there is There are a lot of resources though, like there are a lot of resources from our trade groups and clock that you can look at about RFPs. But in my personal experience, it's really about very clearly defining your needs, your pain points, setting those objectives, like what do you want to solve for and getting the right people involved. And you know, this is kind of that first step when you're doing an RFP, but again in my experience if you don't have all three of those things if you don't know what the pain points are if you don't know what you're solving for and you don't have the right people involved then it's not it's not gonna go anywhere right you could get you could go all the way through an ah rfp and then some stakeholder could be like oh but i don't want that right or you could be like uh go through and you you think ipa i think i know where the pain points are in the process
00:20:08
Speaker
and then you you're looking at solutions and then you find out, oh, it's actually not with legal. That's the pain point here. It's with the business signing the contract, right? no yeah Do your due diligence before you start the RFP. I guess it's kind of how I would distill that um because if you do that, then you're set up for the rest of the ah RFP. You're set up for six success. There's a lot more involved in that first step, of course, but you have to start strong or you can lose your way in all the requirements and the demos and the evaluation criteria and all of that. it can get overwhelming. But if you have a really clear vision from that beginning of what you're trying to accomplish, I think that the RFP kind of flows a lot more naturally. and What are the stakeholders that you have found are really important to be a part of of either that pre-development process for the ah RFP or actually when you get in there and start demoing tech solutions? like Who should be in the room with you? um As many lawyers as you can get.
00:21:04
Speaker
but Like, hopefully, the whole team, or at least a delegate from each region or country. um And that's what we did at Campari. We had a legal ops working group for that was a global representation. So, obviously, the legal team, but then it's finance and IT. IT are your best partners. We know this, especially when you're doing technology. And often, they own the budget. for the technology. So it's good to get in with them on on the ground floor. And with fine if you're doing an e-billing, something with finance to make sure that you actually can get some information on what the spend is, and not just on outside counsel spend, but actual like some insight into the finances of legal at a company. So I think those are my key
Navigating Career Transitions in Legal Ops
00:21:49
Speaker
people. Obviously, the GC or the seal and or the CLO are your primary stakeholder.
00:21:54
Speaker
but after the legal team yeah definitely finance and it t procurement depending on if your organization has procurement obviously they will be stakeholders but that kind of just depends on individual needs. I found this too in my career, which is sometimes you know the right sort of opportunity, next opportunity comes along organically. Sometimes you have to reach for it a little bit and like get yourself to the next step. And I think that when you left Lloyds, it might've been a little bit more of the latter. yeah What did you end up doing afterwards? And and and also sort of you know tucked in that as a question about how do you know when it's the right time for you to go and pursue something new actively in LegalOps?
00:22:36
Speaker
Yeah, great question. There's no magic answer. For me, it's been all about timing and opportunity. When I left Lloyds, it was because the vendor of the e-billing platform asked me if I'd be interested in implementing it somewhere else. Because I was so good with the platform. They're like, well, we could hire you to come work for us. We can go work for a client and save us from, you know, so I was like, okay, great. And there's always the dollar figure, you know, so if the dollar figure is bigger, then yeahp yeah, then ah so I did that and I rode that role through our ah that change actually ended up being four different roles at
00:23:11
Speaker
one company overtime so went to the law firm then i went to consulting so and that was my choice because i just wasn't at that time i was still trying to perform and so i can be locked down to an office four to five days a week they were a little flexible does like listen i you know this is life and i wanna do the things that make me happy i like your job but i wanna have some flexibility so i moved to a consulting remote position with them and then when they change their corporate structure they called me and they're like would you come back and i said sure this time is great like let's let's do it hu so it's so even within the company there are opportunities for change but if it's not working you can also say hey i i want to continue to help you but i want to change the nature of our relationship that's.
00:23:59
Speaker
something I've heard from a lot of colleagues is they feel like they're stuck with the job they were hired for and you don't have to be. like we're We're all replaceable, but we're also all valuable in in one way or another. So you can say, okay, I want to step back and focus on just this part. Maybe have a little more freedom. You call me when you want more. And then, yeah, so it's just in being open to opportunity, really. That's that's for me. It's like, okay, if something comes along and there's a chance, i' I'll at least have the conversation. I have a follow up there actually for you because i think I think you're right. I do think that sometimes people in legal ops, they get bored or they feel like they they they get pigeonholed, especially in one subject matter area. So maybe they're like the e-billing person yeah or they're the CLM person or right what what have you. do you
00:24:46
Speaker
advice for folks who man and may be very, very good. at and And by the way, this also, I think, happens around paralegals as as well, which is a whole other, right? Like, you know, they're the litigation person or... And do you have advice for folks who maybe want to move in to a slightly more generalist legal ops role or maybe even just want to try... It could be specific. We want to try something new because they think that if they get experience here and experience here and experience here, then they might be able to jump to something more generalist. Yeah. You're right. I do see that happening a lot where people get pigeonholed and and feel like they're stuck. yeah I think that you have to be willing to change is the first thing, right? So yeah that's a starting point. But then you have like, okay, so how do I make this change?
00:25:36
Speaker
For me it was really about building relationships with vendors and other legal ops professionals so even if i wasn't working with those vendors i would still take it stay in touch with like the implementation manager and that person is now like four jobs later at a much bigger company you know so it's those relationships as with all industries those those relationships are are very important, but not with just the vendors, but also with your your peers. And when I started, there wasn't ah there wasn't a lot of possibility for legal ah professionals to engage. Now we have clock, we have legal operators, we have a lot more opportunity. So I encourage everyone attend those webinars, go to those conferences.
00:26:15
Speaker
ask questions and really anything that intrigues you or interests you dive into it. Like this could be a change. Um, and to your point about paralegal, that's and when I was at Lloyd's, that was my second title was paralegal. yeah So huh just because you're called a paralegal, I mean, that's a very vague job description as it is. We all know it doesn't mean that you have to stick with that. So it's just look for a look for an opportunity really. And if you are stuck in a position because like so take e-billing for example where you're literally just stuck processing invoices, make a pitch. Make a pitch like, hey, we could outsource this or we could put in some more rules or now we could put in some AI that could save you 20 hours a week so that I can do more for you as yeah your employer. so there So don't feel stuck.
00:27:05
Speaker
just don't. like There's always a way out. um I know that every like, it's a ah fraught world right now. And we all want to stay employed. But I think if you if you make those that that positive effort, it will be seen by your bosses, by your colleagues. And you know you never know what will happen. It's like it's like a mix of initiative and then also I think something that you seem to have in in spades, which is curiosity. I think the curiosity is really important. I think that it's something that people should embrace.
The Role of Technology in Legal Ops
00:27:35
Speaker
I think that's where a lot of insight comes from because one may end up be.
00:27:40
Speaker
seeing parallels that they otherwise wouldn't because they learned something that wasn't directly applicable to their day-to-day. I'm curious how you think about curiosity and in in your work and and how you try to cultivate that because legal ops is a lot of process, too. I mean, I've said this before. of Curiosity is why I'm in legal ops. it was never i like it wasn't a career when i started it it didn't exist and so just like oh i see that literally ah leads data files like a legal invoice ah like there is so much data to be gained out of this text file like there's just like a lot of opportunity so it's kind of chasing down that curiosity and and being open to it
00:28:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm constantly looking at new pieces of technology, new things, even if they're not applicable to my current job, I'll still look by a vendor's booth. And like okay, give me your give me your pitch. Don't be afraid to hear a pitch. You're not obligated to call them back. We won't be offended if you are. So it's really good to just just keep an open mind. And yeah, and then don't be afraid to embrace change. Do you think that you need to be in there? Because because you are very curious about technology, right? and And it seems like you demo everything that's in the market, you really understand it, you you know how the pipes fit together or how the different tech solutions fit together, what the integrations look like. um Do you think you really need to be at that level to be able to run a legal ops organization? Is it is it possible to be sort of more strategic and not be a little bit in the weeds on the tech or
00:29:16
Speaker
is this really Is this really ultimately a job where the tech is just so important that that's where you need to live? I'm not of the opinion that you have to know the tech to have a career in legal ops. For me, naha that was my way in, right? that Because i I like technology in general and and learning these applications and software. But by no means is that the only skill that I had to improve. So, no, I don't think you have to be, I call myself an accidental technologist, right? Because it just happened. But ah you don't have to be that person who is literally administrating a database or configuring it. You can be the person who's guiding that, relying upon your partners in the business and with your vendors to accomplish the vision of your GC. So, no, I i don't think that you you have to be, tech is a shiny new toy.
00:30:06
Speaker
right now sure so that's that it's appealing to me but it's really about okay so beyond that one piece of technology what can we explore how we can connect that with what we already have or what would this bring us down the in the future like with their other new synergies and integration opportunities or do we. Are we okay with how things are going? We really just want to quantify it. And then that's a different kind of tech, but you don't have to be the one running the technology by any means. I've seen, I think I'm an outlier in that said I, I'm very much hands on. A lot of employers see that as a benefit, which is great. But by now it means, is it a requirement? Like if you're, if you have project management skills, then you're already in the collapse. And even if you're not calling yourself that, because that's also a big part of it.
00:30:56
Speaker
it's It's managing the RFPs that we talked about earlier, changing processes, documenting that. So you can really kind of lean into whatever your skillset is, and then it's how you portray yourself to others, right? So I started using the term legal operations consultant back in 2015. Yeah. Right? andd And I was like, I don't think that this is a thing, but I'm going to make it the thing. One of the things that I was really curious to ask you about is is you've not only seen implementations go right, but since you've seen a lot of implementations, you've also seen when implementations go wrong. yeah And I mean, one, are there things you can do to not get to that point? But but two, I mean, part of this is is that, you know,
00:31:40
Speaker
doing tech implementations is is actually hard. um And curious advice that you have for how folks can work best with vendors and also how vendors can can work well with legal ops professionals to to try to solve when when things go wrong. Yes, absolutely. I would say at kind of the the highest level, don't don't wed yourself to one piece of technology and think that that this implementation is is going to be the be all end all. um There may be different tech coming. It might not work for you. Even if you get all the way through an implementation, there might be something that makes it so it's not adopted, whether that's internally or by the business. So that's kind of at a high level is
00:32:24
Speaker
don't think that you've failed because an implementation has gone wrong. You haven't. It's just a piece of software. um But where I've seen it go wrong and what I would caution everyone is try not to be too reliant on implementation consulting vendors. There are a lot of these out there, right? Who who say, hey, we'll come in and we'll implement your DM, we'll implement your CLM, we you know, you rely on us. My experience with that is it doesn't work. and i'm I'm being very blunt, but because it is my experience where literally if if that implementation consultant, if someone gets a new job at that company and they they were working on your implementation and they leave, it's not like anyone else at that consultant can pick up that work. they're They've taken that knowledge with them.
00:33:14
Speaker
hu And even if they document everything, like you'll you'll find out later that they were doing things that, oh, we never would have done this this way, right? but Because they were only thinking of it in the short term, like of one module, say a CLM. So when we got to the ELM, all of the default fields had already been used up for the CLM. So we then had to like go back and re-implement. So, I would say take more ownership of the implementation internally and with the vendor. You can have an implementation consultant, but don't be completely hands-off. Don't let them run it because it's yours. like you It's your product that you need to to work at the end. So, don't be completely relying upon them.
00:33:58
Speaker
The vendors can sometimes step in and help you with i've had that happen where we we're like hey we're not happy with this consultant we we don't want to move forward with the software unless you the vendor are helping us implemented kind of have that power as the customer. And they're usually willing to do that you know my take a little longer sure but you're getting a better results so that's part of making sure that the vendor is willing to grow and change with you. And so that's something that I've started to put in an ah RFP is like, okay, right? Like this is what we think we're going to do. But if something goes wrong, are you the vendor are going to pick up the pieces and help us get to the finish line? So I think that's important. Don't like consultants are great, but don't be completely reliant upon them.
00:34:39
Speaker
Almost think of them as sort of like fractional. like they're like They're a complement to maybe an internal resource that you have. That way, your internal resource doesn't have to be 100% focused on this implementation. Instead, they can be 15% or 20% focused on the implementation. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And on the other side, sometimes it's an internal issue right that causes an implementation to not succeed. And those are a little harder to know until you have a product and then you see if people are actually using it. but Sure. so So sometimes you just need to like as you're going through especially when you get to like the beta testing really take that opportunity or for doing some kind of testing before you go live because that's your opportunity to fix it or to step back and say hey maybe we're trying to be too ambitious let's let's do a little more due diligence do a little more work and make this better but um so yeah i think that
00:35:32
Speaker
part of the role in Leglops is being in between the vendor, the consultant, and your internal team and making sure that it doesn't go off of the rails. Yeah. The second part of that question was about what vendors can do. And i'm not goingnna I want to hear from you what vendors can do to make implementations go well or how you've seen vendors respond positively like when when you've when you've been happy with the response when things are going wrong. like I'll give you an example that I heard from someone once, which was you know they they got rid of a CLM because utilization was super, super, super low. And that didn't come up as a discussion point until the contract was up for renewal. And like the you know the GC hadn't really been paying attention to it and assumed that it was being... And then right like utilization was was basically nothing. And
00:36:20
Speaker
When they went to back to the CLM provider, they were like, well, I'm not going to renew with you if you haven't you haven't been a partner with me for the last two years and come to me and said, actually, it looks like something might be wrong internally. Why is no one using this? It's just an example that I heard from someone one time that I thought was good and that stuck in my head of like you know vendors need to need to really be partners too. How do you think vendors can be partners, generally speaking, but also especially when things are going wrong? I think they need to be proactive. And and what I see from vendors is that they're very reactive, which is also a problem in the legal profession in general. But if you have if you're the vendor for a piece of software and you know that in six months, there's going to be a major change that would affect how your customer would use it, I feel like you're obligated to share that information. And I know sometimes they can't because
00:37:09
Speaker
There's no guarantees, but I have worked with, so in in the context of CLM, the last one I worked with, they were really great about that, where we would be implementing and be like, okay, but I know my GC is going to hate this, so how can we how can we get around this particular issue? And they be like well it's not official but in two months we're having a release where you'll be able to fix it and I'm like okay great then that's all I needed to know I won't even mention my GC until two months from now. right yeah and So in there and depending on the size of the organization there is sometimes more willing to share that information if it's a startup there they're generally like yes let's do it we'll work with you.
00:37:50
Speaker
if for sure If it's a bigger enterprise thing, you might not have as much luck, but that's also really, are they fulfilling the the schedule work, right? Are they actually giving you what you paid for? So, being specific in that and if you have a hunch that an implementation is going to take longer than they say it is, put that in the contract. like yeah Yeah. It happens that you got about 18 months ago or so got a call out of the blue from Campari and and joined to build their legal ops program.
Building a Legal Ops Program from Scratch
00:38:21
Speaker
And this is I think the first time maybe that you've done this from scratch. It wasn't much there before you stepped in. How is doing it from scratch different than than the experiences that you've had before? what What have you had to draw on to succeed in this environment? I would say so. I think all of my positions, we've really been starting from zero as far as technology.
00:38:41
Speaker
but not starting from zero as followup of as far as process and procedure. So I think that was the difference at Campari is that there was fractured process globally and for good reason, right? Some of it was different regulatory requirements. Some of it is sheer volume. So it's it's always a little different of figuring out where the best places start, right? We look at the clock core 12, right? we all references the core 12 competencies. And so too, when I went to compare, I was like, all right, which half of this do you want to focus on first? Like, where where are the the pain points? Because you can't do everything all at once, you know, it's it's too much. So it was really just listening like, oh, okay. So despite like, what I would call best practice,
00:39:27
Speaker
Generally, implementing a CLM first is not a great idea because the data is it's just different. And then if you're trying to implement with other things later, you run into problems. But if you're hemorrhaging money from contracts, then yeah, let's get a CLM in place. Even if it's not the one you're using three years from now. Get something so you can at least track obligations and you know sometimes there's a disconnect where the policy of the company can be the business is responsible for tracking obligations of the contracts but then there's a mechanism for them to do that like so that means like each department is supposed to eat the spreadsheet and just know when a contract is up for renewal or expiration.
00:40:08
Speaker
Like I know, I think you know, like everybody who's listening to this probably knows that's not gonna happen. So if you don't give them a tool to be able to track dates even, then just saying that it's the business's fault makes legal look worse. So it's like, okay, so let's get business involved in this CLM integration. Make sure that they can use it. They'll get notifications about the deadlines and this this stops being an issue, right? Because nobody can say, I didn't know. And even if you have high turnover and the people leave, there's still now a data trail or an audit trail is a better way to say it. So at each organization where you start is not going to be the same. You know, you can, you can look at the clock core 12, see where, but really I think in what I've seen in all three is where are we losing money the most?
00:40:56
Speaker
yeah And it's business, right? The less money you lose, the more money we make. And that gives you more clout to be able to then say, OK, we did this. Let's now buy more technology. Let's do other things. Sure. It's it's what can you solve? Maybe not necessarily the quickest, but the but most effectively is the way I would put it. As we were talking about your experience in Campari before this, one of the things that I thought was really interesting that you said was that you're using technology to drive process. And I think that I often say, and and this is more just a lesson that I've learned from lots of other people in LegalOps, is you want to have process and policy in addition to technology. In other words, technology can't be the silver bullet. So, square that circle for me. Help help me understand how you use tech to drive process as opposed to the two sort of working in concert. Absolutely. So, I agree, ideally, the process would be driving the tech. But the world is not ideal. So, at Campari, we you know in particular, they have a very ah aggressive growth agenda. um and heard they want to be They want to be making more money more quickly.
00:42:09
Speaker
And so it's like, okay, when we look at what is documented for the global process for contracts, for example, I'm like, oh, great, you have a global process, a global contracting handbook. Awesome. You have a process in place. This is great. And then three months later, you find out, oh, the only people actually using this are in one region, and everybody else is still doing what they were always doing. And this was pushed out by someone who didn't. really get the buy-in from the whole global organization. So rather, but you've already published this to the business, so right? You've already told the business that this is how it's going to work. my The challenge there is like, okay, well, are we sticking with that? And if so, how do we make it work for legal since legal has different processes? you know That was really kind of the strategies like, okay, let's keep the global process for the business. They don't need to know that anything's different in the background.
00:43:05
Speaker
they don't need to look under the hood of the technology but we can force our legal team to be more diligent and follow the steps and get take a little more ownership of it um and then that's how we use the tech to really drive the process it's the process is is the same the way. Each region or country does it can be accommodated by the technology so it's as long as you're getting to the same end goal it's sometimes easier rather than spending months and months and months like okay how can we all get on one process.
00:43:39
Speaker
if it's clear that I mean, for it's it might be impossible, like it might literally be impossible for because especially with a global organization, you can't do everything the same way. But you can get really close. And if you have the technology allow or enabling the lawyers to to move forward with that, then it becomes much less of an issue that there's not a unified process because the end of the world is the same. I really like that. And it brings to mind for me a theme that I talked a lot about with Susan Packle, who runs LegalOps for Atlassian on an episode with her that came out a couple of weeks ago.
Adapting Legal Ops to Company Context
00:44:16
Speaker
We spent the time talking about her different experiences across Hilton and Twilio and Atlassian. She's been other places too, great companies. um But how context?
00:44:26
Speaker
drives the right approach to legal operations. In other words, it's not like there's you know just like this list of best practices and all programs need to be done in this way. And if you just go and benchmark against all your peers, you'll find the right answer. like No, like the way that she does legal operations at Atlassian is radically different than the way that she did legal operations at Twilio and who she hires, et cetera. curious if if you know, if you feel like given your experiences at these very different organizations, you feel the same way. Absolutely. There is no one one size fits all. ah Yeah, you kind of, I mean, to go back to the clock core core 12 again, it's like sometimes you've literally just spin that wheel.
00:45:10
Speaker
and like Okay, is this something like, okay, this this triangle, okay, we can we can solve this. this tri and For this company, maybe these three triangles are where we start. But it is different. And if you try to apply, if you try to do things the same at a new organization, as you did at the last, you'll just get resistance from your GC. But also, it's it's not really the best way to go about it. You need to to really understand the organization. And I think in my my first pitch that I made to the global team, there was a question of what is legal ops? And my answer is it's whatever you need it to be. like Whatever you, the company, need legal operations to be for you in this moment as we're starting it, then that's what it's going to be. I mean, I think that sounds maybe a little simplistic, but it's true. Great.
00:45:56
Speaker
That's really great. This has been such a practical conversation, Corey. I love this.
Corey's Reading Recommendations and Career Reflections
00:46:01
Speaker
I've got a couple of fun, hopefully fun questions for you as we start to wrap up that I like to ask pretty much all of our guests. The first is I'm a big reader um and I wonder if there's a book that you've read that's been very influential in your career or you've just read recently and thought has been really good that you'd like to share with our audience. influential in my career. I'd have to think about that for a minute, but I'll tell you what what I'm currently reading. what I just finished um a really good historical fiction novel by Madeline Miller song called The Song of Achilles. and ah it a years old yeah It was one of few awards, um really good book. And then what I'm in the middle of now is I'm i'm a science fiction nerd at heart, okay um the love for technology that might not be a surprise.
00:46:50
Speaker
But yeah, I'm reading three body problem, which is by who she's and it was made into a new Netflix series recently. Yes, it it's like set in China yeah or yeah, I've read about this. Yeah. And this book was only translated into English, I think in 2019, but it's been around since 2006. So this is something that I've been like a story that I've been hearing about for a long time, but haven't really even been able to dive into it. And it's just really nice to read, to like have science fiction from a non-American point of view, but it's also very gripping. It's a really cool book. i'd like As I mentioned, so Song of Achilles is great for some historical fiction.
00:47:30
Speaker
in my career, I read a lot. I don't know that I would say there's one. I do read like, you know, the legal ops books as well. And I'm blanking on names at the moment, but there are some great ones out there. I'm going to pull it up on my my iBooks and see what that title is. That's all right. You can send us a, you can send us one or two and we can put them in the show notes if, uh, if folks want to read a legal ops related title. Great. I'll do that. My last question for you is, as we wrap up, you know, is if you could look back when you were just getting started in legal ops, uh, maybe not knowing that legal ops was going to be, you know, 15 years of your career. Yeah.
00:48:15
Speaker
Something that that you know now, that you wish that you'd known back then. I alluded to it earlier of of making friends with finance and IT, t specifically and especially IT. t And when I started actually at my Sabin, Vermonter Gold, my my second Leelox career, I was reporting out of IT. t So that was we like oh we know it's legal but it's like technology so like where does it fit and so that was great and then building that relationship with finance where because they're also wary they're just as wary of this technology as legal is where is it t is like why haven't you done this yet.
00:48:52
Speaker
um you know So, it's about, okay, finance, we're going to give you whatever you need as well. This is not just for what legal needs, but it's really like building a relationship. I think that, yeah, IT t has always been my, have always been my biggest champions at my jobs because they see, oh, this is somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. wouldn the technology So there's just some trust that you really get out of the box there. Do I know how to code? No. Can I, if I need to? Yes. Like if I need to tweak something in a software? Yes. But it's good to have those partners. And the other thing, especially at the last few positions, I would say don't don't be afraid to be the bad guy sometimes.
00:49:32
Speaker
don't like it's more dangerous to in my opinion to be a yes man than it is just say no sometimes but make sure you can back up that no with something whether it's data or best practices or it's a yes but not now that's also a no yeah yeah You have to like take that into account. And sometimes it's not only what's best for legal, but what's best for the organization in the longer term planning. It's also what's best for you, right? As as a legal, as professional. So, especially if you're like a Department of One, which I have been before.
00:50:09
Speaker
hearing um you have to be practical and and say like, OK, I can accomplish these things for you, but I can't accomplish all of them right now without resources. So what do you want to do first? Let's be very pragmatic and be like, this is reachable within this year or this quarter. And yeah, just make sure that your opinion is valued. I think that that's ah for a while. I was like, OK, I just had to do what the GC says ah hu is something to that. But keep in mind that they are not they're not legal operations. right That's why they hired you. So tell them what you feel, not with just what they want to hear. What a great place to leave this conversation. This has been really great, Corey. Thank you so much for joining this episode of The Abstract. Thank you, Tyler. It's been my pleasure. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in, and we hope to see you next time.
00:51:05
Speaker
If you liked this one, I'd love to hear your thoughts, so leave a rating or a comment. See you all next week. um