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Dr Bill Richards: Psychedelic Therapy and Sacred Knowledge
227 Plays29 days ago
In this episode I interview Dr Bill Richards, who is a true pioneer in the psychedelic research space and has been involved in this work from the original research that took place in the 60s up until the present day. He is someone who I deeply respect and whose work has been very influential on me. His combination of rigorous research skills and deep reverence for the sacredness of these medicines is something that I feel is extremely important for this field.
William A. Richards (Bill) is a Senior Advisor at Sunstone Therapies and a psychologist in the Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research at the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, he has been involved in psychedelic research since 1963. From 1967 to 1977, he implemented projects with LSD, DPT, MDA and psilocybin at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, including protocols designed to investigate the promise of psychedelics in the treatment of alcoholism, depression, narcotic addiction and the psychological distress associated with terminal cancer. He is one of the leaders in the field at training mental health professionals to work in this space. His book, Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experiences, published by Columbia University Press has been translated into multiple languages.
We discuss the beginnings of his work in psychedelic therapy research, key components of psychedelic therapy, the importance of the therapeutic relationship, the BEING of the therapist, therapeutic intuition, mystical experiences, coming to terms with death and the importance of presence in life.
You can find his book here:- https://www.amazon.com.au/Sacred-Knowledge-Psychedelics-Religious-Experiences/dp/0231174063
Follow this link to listen to the podcast I mentioned with Roland Griffiths https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/641-roland-griffiths-phd-lifes-ultimate-glide-path/id863897795?i=1000589513556
I really hope you enjoy this episode, if you do please subscribe and leave a review to help get this important conversation out to more people.
Find out more about my upcoming offerings by joining my mailing list at https://www.esmedarkpsychology.com.au/and stay in touch on Instagram @dresmedark
find out more about the Clinical Psychedelic Lab at Monash University on the link below
www.monash.edu/medicine/scs/clinical-psychedelic-lab
This podcast is for general information only and does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation for psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy.
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Transcript
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Beyond the Trip, a psychedelic therapy podcast with me, Dr. Esme Ta. During this podcast, I'll be bringing you conversations with thought leaders and other inspiring humans, exploring a wide variety of themes relating to the use of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy in the healing of human distress.
00:00:26
Speaker
Whether you're an aspiring therapist, already a therapist, or just simply interested in the emerging field of psychedelic therapy, then this podcast is for you. Join me for a journey into the psychedelic world. Before we get started, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the unceded land on which this podcast is recorded. The Wadda Wurrung people. I pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging.
00:00:54
Speaker
and I extend that respect to any Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.
00:01:03
Speaker
It's an honour and a privilege to be able to introduce you to this episode's guest, Dr. Bill Richards. He is a true pioneer in the field of psychedelic research and has been involved in this work from the beginning. He was involved in the original research that took place in the 60s and continues to be a pivotal key figure up until the present day. He is someone who I deeply respect and whose work has been very influential on me. His combination of rigorous research skills and deep reverence for the sacredness of these medicines is something that I feel is extremely important for this field. He first became involved in psychedelic research in 1963
00:01:43
Speaker
And he was actually the last person to be able to legally administer psychedelic therapy as part of a research trial before the original research was shut down in 1977. He was a key figure in the reemergence of psychedelic research in 1999, when he began his work with Roland Griffith and Mary Cosimano at John Hopkins University. Nowadays, he is a consultant and trainer at sites of psychedelic research all across the world, including Monash University, where I work.
00:02:12
Speaker
At Sunstone Therapies, he is an advisor and he is especially focused on integrating psychedelic therapy into palliative care. His book, Sacred Knowledge, Psychedelics and Religious Experiences, has now been translated into multiple languages. And I highly recommend this book for anyone who's interested in psychedelic therapy or just the history of the psychedelic movement. I think it's an essential book to read. I'll make sure I put a link in the show next. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.
00:02:44
Speaker
Welcome, Bill. It's really fantastic to have you here on this podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day to to talk with us and your evening and my morning.
00:02:59
Speaker
When I dreamed up the idea of this podcast, you were one of the first people that I actually thought of wanting to interview and for lots of reasons, actually. You know, you've been a real pioneer in this work and um so it feels a real honor to have you here. You've been working in psychedelic research in different forms since the 60s, which I'm looking forward to.
00:03:21
Speaker
hearing about today. and When I trained as a psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist at Monash, your learnings and from you and your team, Mary Cosamino and others were very much a part of our training and underpinned a lot of what we do now. And so we were also lucky to have you as our clinical supervisor at the start of our trial using psilocybin-assisted p psychotherapy to treat anxiety disorder. And so it feels like a really natural fit to have you here talking with us about psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy. um So yeah, welcome Bill.
00:04:01
Speaker
Well, it's a real honor to be with you. As you know, i'm I believe in the potential of psychedelic assisted therapy and what's happening in Australia is really exciting. And ah anything I can contribute to get it launched in a safe, responsible, effective way, I'm more than happy to contribute my energies. Thank you.
00:04:31
Speaker
Yeah. And I think something that one the one of the other reasons I really wanted to have a conversation with you, Bill, in particular is, you know, you've written in your book sacred knowledge about the sacredness of these molecules and the their potential to create in some people at the right dose, mystical experiences, visionary experiences.
00:04:52
Speaker
And I feel that as we move into the clinical use here in Australia, it's really important to also hold that and to talk about that as therapists. So we'll get into that more later, but maybe we can start from the beginning, Bill. I'd love to hear from your end, you know, about where you started in this work. In in the 60s, I think I'll let you choose where you want to start, really. So where would you yeah like to begin?
00:05:19
Speaker
Let me jump in at the very beginning. okay Believe it or not, I was once a 23-year-old graduate student at the University of Göttingen in Germany. and It's hard to believe, but this was in the days where psychedelics were completely legal and not controversial at all.
00:05:42
Speaker
And um I hadn't even heard the word psychedelic. I had no idea what psilocybin might be. But ah two of my friends ah participated in an interesting experiment in the Nerefin Clinic, the psychiatric clinic around the corner from my dormitory. And one experienced himself sitting in his father's lap. His father had been killed in World War II.
00:06:11
Speaker
And it was very healing and meaningful to him. And the other ah saw what he called hallucinations of SS men marching in the streets. And I thought, gee, I've never seen a real hallucination. This sounds it's kind of interesting. So I went over to the clinic.
00:06:32
Speaker
And the framework was that ah this new drug was supposed to evoke memories from early childhood.
00:06:43
Speaker
okay And I thought, well, maybe I'll get some new insight into my edible complex or something. And um they asked me if I got drunk very often. I didn't. They led me to a little basement room with a cot and end table, a little narrow window looking out over the hospital garbage cans. And they gave me an injection and left me alone.
00:07:09
Speaker
And I chose to trust, curious about whether any insights about my early childhood would appear. And to my other amazement, this incredible transcendental state of consciousness opened up that I didn't even know. if I couldn't have imagined it.
00:07:32
Speaker
and I remember the researcher came in to test my knee reflexes. He was hitting my patellar tendon with his little hammer. And I was sitting there with outstretched arms, feeling compassion for the infancy of science, that they had no idea of the magnitude of what was going on. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:58
Speaker
The assumption then was that high doses of psychedelics made people psychotic. yeah So you'd only give low doses. And for some reason, this low dose was a high dose for me. So at the end I said, and what was the name of that drug you gave me? Psilocybin. How do you spell it? What is it?
00:08:24
Speaker
you know And the rest of my life in many ways has footnotes to that experience. So I became known as that interesting American who had the mystical experience. And then I started guiding English-speaking people through sessions in the clinic who wanted a legal experience as it was still legal in Germany, you know? a And I've been guiding sessions ever since. So
00:08:55
Speaker
Then I worked in various locations, ah Maryland Psychiatric Research Center for 10 years till the research became dormant in 77. And then 22 years of dormancy and then Roland Griffiths and I were able to start research at Hopkins, which has now gone from a staff of three Roland, who has recently died, and Mary Casamano and myself, to now a staff of over 60, which is quite amazing. And I'm also working at Sunstone Therapies, and specializing in palliative care with psilocybin. So life is quite promising at this point.
00:09:48
Speaker
Yes, it must feel like a really and interesting space and a beautiful space to find yourself in doing this work and seeing it kind of open up in such a way over the last like 20 years after those years of not being able to do it legally. It was 22, was it about 22 years that you said that you had to stop the research? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. of Total dormancy.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, I remember in around 1970. when we moved into this beautiful new research facility for psychedelics, the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center. Everything you could dream of, you know, specially designed psychedelic treatment suites with private bathrooms and kitchenettes and ah biochemistry labs and sensory isolation rooms and auditorium and library, animal research, you name it, four stories.
00:10:53
Speaker
And ah we were sitting around the table wondering how we would ah train the hordes of therapists that would be needed in a few years to implement this therapy. And then all of a sudden the whole thing closed down. And I remember emptying out my office in 1977 with my two little boys who were one and three at that time.
00:11:19
Speaker
no and It looked like psychedelic research was over. you yeah It's great to have experienced the rebirth of it. Absolutely.
00:11:33
Speaker
Yeah. And, and speaking of kind of training, you know, as like I said earlier, a lot of the learnings from your work over the years, both the first period and when you joined with Roland Griffiths, and the rest of the team in the second have really like been the foundation of my training as a psychedelic assistant, psychotherapist and a lot of other people.
00:11:58
Speaker
what your What are your learnings from that time around how to really safely guide people through this work? You're one of the most experienced people in the world of doing that. So as we kind of move into clinical use in Australia, yeah, there's lots of ways you could take this question, but what are the most important things that you think therapists who are listening to this should be thinking about when they are learning this work?
00:12:24
Speaker
Well, clearly, as I hope everyone knows now, there's much more involved in the action of the molecule. and You don't just throw the molecule in your drug and have a good experience. It's not that kind of drug. the The psychedelic, I like to think of it as it unlocks a door. It gives an opportunity. But what you do with that opportunity depends on your preparation, the quality of the relationship, ah how safe and secure ah you feel, and um whether you can choose to dive into your mind, even if it looks scary, you know?
00:13:15
Speaker
to receive whatever your own mind choreographs on that particular day, with that particular dose of a psychedelic, just for you, and to be willing to learn from the experience. You may know that they call the mushroom psilocybin cubensis, for example, the golden teacher.
00:13:42
Speaker
a And the idea is that the experience teaches you something, and you go in as the humble student, and it might be a painful lesson. yeah you know ah If you all of a sudden are reliving repressed grief from two decades ago, that's not a bad trip. not That's intensive psychotherapy. you know yeah But you have to be willing to go through that.
00:14:11
Speaker
you know Yeah, yeah. Or whatever it is. And I've come to deeply believe in what I call the the wisdom of, or the Intellikey, the meaningful unfolding of content you of the interpersonally grounded psyche. Okay. When you're in a relationship where you feel safe, that everything is welcome. There's no need to run away from anything, censor anything. You're curious, you're open, and you'll receive whatever your own mind presents.
00:14:52
Speaker
yeah When that is in place, the experience is almost guaranteed to be beneficial. And it sure helps to have a wise choice of music and a nice environment that feels safe and comfortable and so on.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. We're learning. We're still learning. Absolutely. And I like to stress that we're not just learning about the drug, we're learning from each person that we give it to. That the patient the participant in the research is also a teacher and we're in the world together beside one another. okay It's not that I'm the wise doctor that has all the answers and you're the screwed up, confused patient you know and I'm going to fix you.
00:15:51
Speaker
you know It doesn't work that way. why It's like we are in the world beside each other. I will ensure your safety and prepare you well and give you structure and guidance if you need it. And if you don't need it, I won't interfere. okay I'll be sensitively present with you. And when we're together, it's like there's there's no one in the world except the two of us.
00:16:22
Speaker
yeah I'm not going to play with my iPhone. okay I'm going to really be present just in a meditative state, especially during the onset and ascent periods of the psilocybin ah response or whatever the drug happens to be.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah. and That's an art. It's the being of the therapist as well as the theoretical knowledge that's very important. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it yeah and there's so much in what you just said I could unpack, but I think I'm really struck by that. that the That's the being of the therapist. and It sounds too maybe but an outside person,
00:17:12
Speaker
to be kind of simple, you just be present. But actually when you're in the room with someone as a therapist supporting them, we're still working in diets. So there's usually two of us. You're doing a whole lot. You're tracking, and I'm tracking my body um to see what's coming up in me. I'm tracking the participant or the client to see how they our body is moving to see, just to kind of keep really present with them and their experience. I'm often checking in with my diet partner non verbally every now and then to see and if they're having any thoughts about wanting to check in or not. And I i think that is a real balance of knowing when to let someone kind of flow through their experience and when
00:18:02
Speaker
to intervene and see if they're okay. Sometimes it's very obvious that they need some intervention. And other times you're kind of working with your intuitive sense therapist, right? yeah That's right. And it's so important that the therapist doesn't think of the psychedelic experience, you know, but comprehends that there are many different strata of experiencing during the action of psychedelics.
00:18:32
Speaker
And that body on the couch or the bed may look the same throughout the day. But what's going on in that mind may be anything from a newborn child to a confused adolescent to an adult making decisions to an enlightened master to a very scared person.
00:18:58
Speaker
you did and You have to kind of intuitively tune in to where that person is. There are times where there been if the person's mind is in transcendental mode, if you will, there may not even be a person to talk to there. yes There's a unit of consciousness prevailing in that body. yeah And ah if you ask that person to talk, you're really asking them to fight the experience, okay to reconstitute the everyday personality, get enough air in the lungs, activate the voice apparatus,
00:19:46
Speaker
and avoid what's emerging to speak to you. So there's times where you opt for silence because all is going well. And other times where you just feel, yeah I always say, would you like to describe where you find yourself? i love And it's always an invitation, never a demand.
00:20:11
Speaker
Okay. yeah Yeah, I love that question. But that's part of the value of experiential learning ah for therapists to be able to have their own psychedelic experiences.
00:20:27
Speaker
They can happen spontaneously without psychedelics, but that's not terribly common. you know Sometimes people glimpse these yeah deep transcendental realms in meditation or natural childbirth or create a fervor of one kind or another, you know sensory isolation or overload, whatever. But it's hard to imagine them if you haven't experienced them yourself.
00:20:56
Speaker
you know Yeah, absolutely. We were, we were very fortunate at Monash, um as you know, to have a self experience that was part of a research trial as part of our training and like think it was so, so helpful. All of our participants said that we spoke to about it, which we we we because it enables you to share as well, not only to get kind of a felt sense of what it's really like to have a psychedelic experience, but also what it's really like to be vulnerable and to put yourself in the hands of therapists.
00:21:31
Speaker
in that setting. And it, a lot of the people we worked with had not had um a psychedelic before. And so it allowed us to say, Yeah, we've, we've laid on that couch, we've, we've gone into those places never the same as where you're going to go, but we know a little bit what it's like.
00:21:50
Speaker
I have a question. So you trained with originally, i i so I know with Abraham Maslow, and a lot of people listening to this podcast would be our therapists or trainee therapists. So what kind of, um in terms of, as well as not just the dosing, but in the preparation sessions and the integration sessions, are there particular models of therapy that you draw on or that you use, that you find helpful?
00:22:19
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I feel there's two important things that have to happen before we give someone a psychedelic. And one is establishing the relationship of a basic sense of safety and trust. And ah if we can't establish that, we shouldn't give them the drug. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:22:40
Speaker
That's the skill, the art of the effective therapist, to establish a really deep sense of trust with a variety of people in a very short period of time.
00:22:55
Speaker
you know yeah We, you have to trust. I think every dyad of patient and therapist, if you will, is unique. And, you know, there's no one size fits all, but you just sense with this particular person, how can I create this envelope of safety and openness and trust? You know, some people need more self-disclosure than others, you know, et cetera.
00:23:25
Speaker
But once that's established, then there's, I think I call it psychoeducation. to People need to be taught how to respond to the action of a psychedelic, ah just as if you were going to go skiing or scuba diving for the first time. You should have some lessons, some knowledge, you know, to do it safely and productively.
00:23:53
Speaker
And the essence of that is, first of all, trust, let go, be open, receive whatever your own mind presents, dive into it like diving into a swimming pool, okay? Whether it's exciting or boring or scary or beautiful or comprehensible or incomprehensible, accept it, explore it, be curious about it.
00:24:22
Speaker
Choose to trust. It's not just being passive to see what will happen. It's diving off the high dive into the water when you don't know the depth of the temperature. But you know that others have done it, and you've got a good lifeguard beside you. Okay?
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. But it takes take some courage, you know, feeling and a real decision. And so, if there's a monster that appears, what do you do?
00:24:57
Speaker
Obviously, you dive into his eyeball. You say, my gosh, are you ever big and scary? Why are you here? What can I learn from you? What are you made up of? Okay? it's You're my very own monster.
00:25:13
Speaker
Okay, yeah yeah I'm not going to just run from it and take the eyesight off and go to the bathroom. Okay, I'm going to find out what this is all about. So there is that intention to confront, explore,
00:25:31
Speaker
You may know in the Ayahuasca religions, there's this wonderful tradition with a giant Anaconda serpent. What you do if you see the Anaconda, well, obviously you dive into his mouth and look out through his eyes. You become your Kundalini, your Shakti, your Ilanvital. You don't run away from it.
00:25:54
Speaker
And if you run away from it, you know what's going to happen. Panic and paranoia every time. You get smaller, it gets bigger, and you have the nightmare sequence. Okay? Absolutely. It's not helps? Yeah. So, number one, to confront, to receive whatever emerges. Even if it's in exquisitely beautiful, dive into that too. You know? Receive it.
00:26:23
Speaker
And then the the the next big principle, I know you know this, you tell this to your own patients, you know, but it's to turn off the rational mind, the intellect, we especially those of us who went through graduate school. ah There's this tendency to so say, stop the world. What's going on here? I got to figure it out. I got to label it, you know.
00:26:48
Speaker
No, let the intellect go out and play for six hours while the experience happens. And you collect intuitive experiences. And the way you bribe the intellect is you tell it, when you come back in at the end of the day, I'm going to give you all these new experiences to think about.
00:27:10
Speaker
And you can play with them and categorize them. And you can draw on your knowledge of depth psychology and quantum physics and philosophy and religion. You can label it any way you want. But while it's happening, intellect, you go out and play. This is an intuitive experience, not a cognitive, rational experience. yeah yeah And this goes way back to, ah in the psychology of religion, as it does highlight Rudolf Otto, three modes. There's the rational, there's the irrational, but then there's the non-rational, or the intuitive. And that's where the psychedelic realm opens up. We have to take that seriously.
00:28:04
Speaker
okay and then ah what else would I want to teach? you ah Somatic expressions. And that's that's your area of expertise, too. You know, that if there's a tremor or nausea or whatever, you you don't just complain about it as a nasty side effect. You explore it, you dive into it, you find out yeah if there's memories or thoughts or meaningful content connected to it, you know. And at any time you can reach out for the hand of your therapist, you know, either for sharing
00:28:51
Speaker
reassurance or just for support because, boy, I'm going places I've never been before. This is exciting, but it's scary. Yeah, ah totally. And as you know, often people really do feel that they're dying or they're going crazy, you know? Yeah, totally. And you say, no, if you feel like you're dying, go ahead and die. You'll be okay.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Trust, let go, be open, accept. Yeah, totally. I think I actually, in I relate in my own experience to, I am, I mean, I'm a somatic we trained psychotherapist and psychologist and I use somatic psychotherapy principles and internal family systems a lot in the psychedelic work that I do.
00:29:45
Speaker
In my experience, I had a really strong stomach pain um when I did my self experience and I really wanted to avoid the stomach pain. So I sat up and then my therapy partner which was my therapist that day and he said, maybe that's something you should go into.
00:30:07
Speaker
And so I did. And I had a really beautiful transformative image of myself in a garden with all of the women in my family around me. And I was kind of standing there and there was nature kind of moving out of my body. And it was quite a stunning visual experience that really connected to my intention around kind of working with some some grief around being living in a different country to my family. And so that was a very personal experience. And even though I have all of the cognitive knowledge, my cognitive brain wasn't on, thank goodness, which is always challenging, definitely for people that went to grad school or that like to see how things right. It was hard, but I needed that encouragement from my two therapists on that day to go towards and I think
00:30:57
Speaker
that's the really important job that a psychedelic-assisted psychotherapist does. On those days, they're really helping someone to go towards something that's scary and just providing that safe, trusting relationship. And that takes different amounts of time for different people, too. And I think one of the things I'm excited about in Australia is we can tailor things much more now that we're working outside of research trials, too, which is great.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah. You're very lucky, but we got to use that opportunity wisely. Yes, definitely. I just remember in the early days of research here,
00:31:38
Speaker
Whenever, just recalling how at the Spring Grove Hospital in Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, when we would hire a new therapist, even ah an an assistant, a psychiatric nurse or a practical nurse who would be a co-guide, we would always offer two LSD experiences as part of on-the-job training.
00:32:04
Speaker
Amazing. And they were paid for those days. yeah yeah That was before the days of institutional review boards and so on. But but it was perfect. It was reported to the to the FDA. yeah There was nothing controversial about it. It's like, if you're going to do this, you need to comprehend something of the vast realms within the human mind.
00:32:29
Speaker
you know So you can stay centered and present and not start to panic and just wonder where the emergency meds are located. Totally. That brings me to a question that I really want to ask you actually, which is, you know in all of the a ah research trials and in many different research trials and different spaces, it's been shown that mystical experiences have been correlated with positive outcomes for people. Why do you think that is? And I know when no one has exactly the answer, but what do you think that is about for people? Yeah, well, I'm happy to talk about that. As you may know, I do have a background in the psychology of religion as well as clinical psychology.
00:33:24
Speaker
So I love to and put on both hats here. Yeah, these mystical transcendental choose your word experiences are incredibly beautiful, incredibly profound, and they don't always happen, especially in a first session. and And they're not the only things that are helpful. You know, you can you can spend the whole session working through relationships in your early childhood. ah And that can be very valuable, ah but we wouldn't call it mystical or religious. But the mystical forms of experience entail this sense of a consciousness ah outside of time and space, ah intuitive knowledge,
00:34:18
Speaker
incredible beauty, meaning, love, joy. I mean, they're wonderful, ah even though it's hard to talk about them, because in a sense, you weren't there when they happened. like There's a sense of the everyday personality dying or fading out and then being reborn. But when you're reborn,
00:34:46
Speaker
In your memory, there's this memory of this eternal state, and it stays with you afterwards. Now, people who have that type of experience often show the most dramatic responses and decreases of depression and anxiety, and with cancer patients, fear of death, for example.
00:35:11
Speaker
and openness to live in the present fully and enjoy interpersonal relationships and all that good stuff. So it's not just that it feels impressive, but ah it has what William James called fruits afterwards, that people do view themselves and other people in the world in a fresh way afterwards.
00:35:41
Speaker
you know It still has to be more fully integrated for many people, but these experiences are incredibly powerful therapeutically. yeah And it's important that the therapists appreciate that and not just say, boy, you was he was really a out of it. you know yeah He was out of time and space, but his consciousness was someplace else beyond space. you know Yeah. Thank you for saying that. One of the core mystical insights
00:36:24
Speaker
ah This sounds incredibly poetic. It's hard to believe if you haven't been there. But it's that the at the very core of the mind, of the core of reality, the origin of consciousness, whatever you want to try to call it. There's an energy, a creative energy called love.
00:36:49
Speaker
And love is more than just a mushy human emotion. It's an intelligent healing energy. okay It may be the most real thing there is. You may know Dante in the Divine Comedy at the very last line says, it is love that moves the sun and other stars.
00:37:10
Speaker
I think he was writing out of his own experience. I don't know if he took psychedelics or ate moldy bread or just was a spontaneous mystic, like a Maslow. But there are people who have these experiences and write out of them and express them, including people like Einstein and Eleanor Roosevelt.
00:37:36
Speaker
you know yeah Yeah, yeah, I think um I really love what you just said about love and being an intelligent healing force. I think, um ah yeah, it's such a beautiful and important thing to remember in this world right now, to kind of re-remember that.
00:37:57
Speaker
you right and to try to We try to avoid religious language in medicine, although medicine and religion in in the past have often been very interrelated.
00:38:10
Speaker
you know yeah But when you experience that sense of love being totally accepted, to accepting acceptance in the language of Paul Tillich, the theologian, oh your your view ah there's nothing you've done or experienced that can't be healed. you know There's no relationship that you can't address in the fresh way.
00:38:39
Speaker
you yeah ah it It really changes where your view of who you are yeah and what you're capable of. yeah for the addict ah Think of the typical addict who has lost jobs and relationships and perhaps even teeth and feels so worthless.
00:39:05
Speaker
you know failure. If that person can discover this mystical dimension, afterwards he or she will say, well, I know there are incredibly strong, beautiful inner resources in my mind. you know there I do have worth.
00:39:24
Speaker
yeah you know ah the Staying sober may be a challenge, but you know I can do that. know yeah Because the whole sense of who I am has changed. Yeah, absolutely. That's why these this therapy is so incredibly powerful. Absolutely, yeah.
00:39:51
Speaker
and I think, I mean, I could go down so many different tracks here, but but like how do you advise people, perhaps you haven't had a mystical experience who are working therapeutically with a client who has, how to support that client well? you know I have my own kind of thoughts, and because not everyone has a mystical experience when they have a psychedelic experience, so even if therapists have had that as part Training, they might not have been and and the chances are they haven't been to the particular version of the person in front of them. So what advice do you have for those people and how to be with that person in the integration phase after the experience?
00:40:35
Speaker
yeah you yeah ah both it In preparation during the session and in integration, the therapist has to be able to be present, respectful, appreciative, you know, maybe curious, but not threatened.
00:40:55
Speaker
You know, if the therapist thinks that any state of consciousness other than our normal one in everyday life is mentally ill or psychotic, that person would not be a good psychedelic therapist, okay? Because there are other states of consciousness that may be atypical, but they're incredibly interesting and healing and perhaps healthy, you know?
00:41:24
Speaker
So um you have to be able to not get frightened yourself because if you as a therapist start getting tense, worried, frightened, that's contagious. Yeah. And the patient will start to feel that tension. Totally.
00:41:44
Speaker
you have to be able to genuinely be centered and real and present. And that grows through experience.
00:41:56
Speaker
you know ah But you know in terms of thinking of who to hire to do this, it occurs to me, I would like to hire people who have lived fully, you know who have taken some risks.
00:42:12
Speaker
who have maybe experienced some grief and guilt and struggle and suffering in life. yeah You know, not someone who's been pampered all the time. you know You know, they make good therapists. how so yeah and know what you They're real. Yeah, thank you, Bill. That's really important for us. It's definitely something that's been on my mind a lot as we move into this work in Australia. what What kind of therapists or people do we want to be recruiting? And I have one final question because we're coming to the end of our time together and I really
00:42:47
Speaker
I want to ask you just it's a slightly more personal question. I guess all the intersection between personal and professional. You spent a lot of time in your career working with being palliative care with people who are who are dying. What has that work taught you about living?
00:43:05
Speaker
Well, many of the people I have worked with in palliative care with LSD or DPT or psilocybin or MDMA have had incredibly meaningful experiences. And afterwards, they often report loss of the fear of death But they don't manifest suicidality. Rather, the present moment opens up and they live more fully. They interact. the ah They may say, well, the pain is still there, but it doesn't bother me like before.
00:43:47
Speaker
you know And sometimes they're significantly less paid. But they're living. They're thankful for each day they're given. And frankly, my impression is that some of them may well be living longer as well. Their immune systems are functioning better. They're engaged in life.
00:44:09
Speaker
instead of ah the stereotype is lying in bed with the curtains drawn, waiting for the next dose of morphine, not wanting anyone to see me this way, you know, preoccupied with pain, depressed, anxious. That's no fun. You know, most of us are mortal. i And maybe we can come to terms with death just as we have with sex, you know?
00:44:37
Speaker
Sex used to be a total taboo. Now, we have pretty healthy attitudes towards it. yeah and Maybe the same thing can happen with death. I hope so. The psychedelics will help us in that. yeah Yeah. Thank you, Bill. That's such a beautiful question to close on. I was just listening to Roland Griffith's interview with tim Tim Ferriss on his podcast.
00:45:06
Speaker
and And just before he died, and I was really moved by actually, and his that he spoke a lot about that, like kind of being in the present moment and allowing the present moment to really open up. So, and I'll put some link. Yeah. Well, the the theory, you know,
00:45:25
Speaker
You know, classic existential theory is that if you are always ruminating about the past and worried about the future, the present moment sneaks by unnoticed. And then you feel you've only existed, you've never really lived, okay? That life takes place in the present moment, here and now, today. And if Your dominant focus is here and now. And you're enjoying the taste of your food and visiting with your friends and maybe planning a trip to Europe or somewhere. Why not? You know? and so live The theme with our cancer patients is that ah I want to live until I die. Beautiful. And they're doing a great job of it.
00:46:21
Speaker
Maybe we all do a great job of it, Bill. Thank you so much. and no Thank you for all you're doing and to all who listen to this tape, I send you my best wishes and become the most effective psychedelic therapist you can. you Beautiful. Thank you, Bill. One way to do that is to live fully yourself. Absolutely. Thank you so much.
00:46:50
Speaker
Thanks for listening. If you're interested in following along on the journey with me, check out my Instagram or website details listed in the show notes. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and share this podcast to help get this important conversation out to more listeners.