Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Stoic Moderation (Episode 135)
856 Plays5 months ago
“Moderation is subdivided into good discipline, seemliness, modesty, and self-control.”
The ancient Stoic breakdown of moderation is essential for becoming more disciplined. It will help you think about the ideas of moderation, discipline, and self-control more deeply and generate strategies for how to becoming more moderate in your life today.
(00:22) The Meaning Of Moderation
(07:17) David Goggins Can't Hurt Me
(12:06) Moderate Role Models
(18:08) Stoic Sources
(22:15) Self-Discipline
(27:17) Propriety
(34:58) Modesty
(41:13) Self-Control
(44:27) Improving Day By Day
***
Subscribe to The Stoa Letter for weekly meditations, actions, and links to the best Stoic resources: www.stoaletter.com/subscribe
Download the Stoa app (it’s a free download): stoameditation.com/pod
If you try the Stoa app and find it useful, but truly cannot afford it, email us and we'll set you up with a free account.
Listen to more episodes and learn more here: https://stoameditation.com/blog/stoa-conversations/
Thanks to Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music in the conversations: https://ancientlyre.com/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Moderation and Self-Control
00:00:00
Speaker
But it just also just gives us positive things, right? Like so often we think of self-control of like, damn it, I, you know, I, I broke my diet. I'm ashamed of myself or i'm I'm angry with myself or I was lazy. And just think of it as like building a positive skill, right? Welcome to Stoa Conversations. My name is Caleb Monteveros. And I'm Michael Trombley. And today we're going to be talking about moderation, one of the cardinal virtues.
Understanding Stoic Virtues
00:00:29
Speaker
It's an essential one, of course, difficult to train. And we'll be talking about what it is for the Stoics and be going into detail by talking about some of its subcomponents. So this is going to be similar to an earlier episode we have
00:00:48
Speaker
on courage where we break down what some of the ancient Stoics said about the parts of a virtue. Because I think that's a useful way both to get a sense of what the Stoics meant when they were talking about that cardinal, core cardinal virtue, but also its different aspects and how it shows up in ordinary life. Yeah, I find these really helpful. It's a nice way to apply to be practical because you can be practical with specific examples, like what should I do in a and and you know in a specific kind of situation? But I like this idea of really deep diving into the virtues because it says outside of any kind of situation, what is the way a good person tends to act? But we still get the level of specificity. We still get the the kind of qualities that you try to build and cultivate.
The Role of Self-Mastery
00:01:38
Speaker
I really enjoyed our courage conversation. Looking forward to this one. Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to be talking about moderation and we'll go through what it is for the Stoics. We need to talk about a few different examples and then dive into those sub components of moderation. So the first thing to say about this virtue is that I think it's one of the probably Probably one of the key ones that's associated with Satoicism, this, of you know, training one's mind, having a sense of self mastery, being disciplined. There's that maxim from Publius Cyrus, which you have a great empire rule over yourself, which captures that call from Satoicism to be be a master of one's desires and aversions.
00:02:38
Speaker
And what that looks like philosophically for the Stoics is knowing the correct amount of things. Each of the virtues are defined by knowledge, so courage was knowing what to pursue, what to avoid, and whereas moderation, that's knowing the right amount of things.
Comparing Courage and Moderation
00:02:58
Speaker
So then we have these associated ideas of discipline, self-restraint, and self-control. and The way it described in Ariastitimus' epitome of Stoic ethics is the domain of self-restraint that deals with man's impulses. So that's that idea of self-mastery. We're getting impressions. We have these impulses and urges to act in specific ways, yeah but where moderation is knowing, sort of which
00:03:36
Speaker
of those to act on and especially knowing the right amount of maybe perhaps a given given behavior, not too much, not too little. Yeah, I like this idea of self-mastery, self-control because it reminds me of our discussion of courage. You could think of courage as like moderating, I i shouldn't say moderating, but dealing with your impulses as they relate to external things. You know, the tiger jumps out and do you, do you run away or do you confront it? You know, somebody, somebody threatens you. Are you fearful or are you brave? It's about how do you respond? It's kind of external stimulus. And then you may be, one way to think about moderation would be, well, how do you respond to the internal so stimulus? The desire that bubbles up the, yeah, the the desire to do things, to get more, to to to want more.
00:04:29
Speaker
Um, and knowing when to draw that line. And know so I guess there's knowing how to control that, that, and that internal state. So that kind of self-restraint, which is like literally restraining pulling back. And then maybe there's that aspect of self mastery, which is like, well, I don't actually have to restrain anything because there's nothing left to restrain.
Philosophical Perspectives on Moderation
00:04:48
Speaker
There's no longer any desire, but either way, it's dealing with that internal, or that inside, as opposed to a courage, which is dealing with that outside. ye Yeah, I think that's ah that's a yeah useful way to think about things. Another useful framing comes from Aristotle. You're thinking about moderation. You can think about moderation as the mean between sort of that lack of self-restraint.
00:05:13
Speaker
versus asceticism, something that just doesn't experience ah you know doesn't act on that that impulse at all, even when it would be appropriate to do so so. And you can see that in action. One of the Stoics favorite examples, especially Epictetus, Epictetus talks about you know living as a fewer at a banquet and enjoying the dishes as they come by without you know gorging yourself, without pining after them when they're gone, and so on. and that's I think you can see moderation in that context of eating ah easily enough. You're not called to be an ascetic, someone who doesn't experience the joys of life, but you ah you know you can't be someone who gorges yourself with them either.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great way of putting it. It's like, you know, just because you're a stoic, you don't have to be a grump. You don't have to ah not have the good things in life. um You just have them in the right way at the right time and in the in the right amount. So you indulge when it's appropriate and you hold back when it's appropriate. And we've talked about this before, but one thing Appictetus really talks about is like, when you look at that asceticism, Or, you know, the kind of person who says, well, you know, I'm never going to I'm never going to eat this kind of food or, or you know, i'm i'm I'm going to sleep on the floor or I'm going to endure these these difficult things.
Avoiding Extremes and Finding Balance
00:06:35
Speaker
Just.
00:06:35
Speaker
yeah there's there' There's a benefit to that kind of training. It can be done in the right way at the right time. yeah i'm I'm an athlete myself, but there's a kind of in moderation or there's kind of another desire often that can be fulfilled, namely to be seen by other people, to be a certain kind of way, to be tough, cool, or to see yourself, you know, your own ego, to view yourself as being a certain way. And neither of those are moderate, right? Both of those are just engaging in a different kind of, a different extreme. Right? the extreme As you said, the extreme of self-denial, that asceticism versus the extreme of indulgence in moderation is, no, I'm not going to be extreme. I'm going to be the the the right amount as and as needed. Yeah, yeah. are Are there people who come to mind in your life or maybe even fictional historical examples who you think are good exemplars of moderation?
00:07:30
Speaker
I'm not sure, I was going to think of Goggins, that is his name, David Goggins. Oh yeah, David Goggins, yeah. I was thinking about him as someone who's immoderate. Immoderately, he's kind of an ultra marathon runner. I think he has the world, or had at one point the world record for pull-ups, kind of is like, no pain, no gain taken to the extreme. And maybe that's a better life than being sedentary, never really understanding the limits of your ability, not having tried. Maybe it's better to have done to to be like that, but at the end of the day, that I see that as somebody where I think, you know is that the best life? It doesn't strike me as it is. It seems almost immoderate the other way. That's that's what I was thinking of. Yeah, that's ah that's a good example. i well so David Goggins, his book, isn't it called like Get Hard or something?
00:08:18
Speaker
Maybe not. I don't know. Maybe I should. It's something intense. Never back down something like this. Yeah. is first His first book, which I read, oh, can't hurt me. Can't hurt me is what is what it's what it's called. And his first book he talks about, which I do enjoy. I enjoyed his first book. I haven't read his second one. ah He talks about being at a training camp where he's being tested with other men for an elite ah squad. And one of the things they need to do is like navigate this terrain in a given time period and he's able to survive and he showed in like past tests that he's excellent at an enduring surviving and so on. um But he ends up in the wrong spot and he's a cut because he like messes up some navigation related tasks.
Moderation in Personal and Professional Life
00:09:13
Speaker
which I think is evidence of your view, which is that he's someone who's so good at pushing himself, especially physically, that he but potentially overlooked developing some other skills. And it might be you know some of these other characters who managed to join these elite teams have a better... You can think of it almost as a kind of moderation where they have a skill set which is probably not better in every single way than David Goggins but might be either more suited for a particular role or is more well-rounded in a physical but also strategic sense.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's well put. I mean, the way that I think about this, I do think about it kind of Aristotelian way sometimes, which is to say, you know, if you're having trouble with motivation, if you're feeling lazy, if you're feeling immoderately indulgent, maybe reading David Goggins book would be really helpful and inspirational. But it's not clear to me that somebody who's already quite tough, quite has good endurance skills, is good at pushing themselves, needs to be pulled more in that direction. It's about kind of finding that that equilibrium and finding that balance. So I'm not saying that that kind of um if you're a fan of David Goggins, there's no value to that. I think there is, and it can be inspiring, but it always should be, in my view, inspiring by pulling you closer towards the middle. And once you swing past the middle, you've gone too far. And I guess that's the that's the point to say that you know when you're looking at moderation, you have to be candid in in either direction. right are you Are you too extreme?
00:10:47
Speaker
too extremely tough? Are you too extremely, are you overworking? Are you um not, you know, not balancing out the other parts of your life? Or are you not working hard enough? Are you not maximizing your potential? And so it just, it goes both ways. um And it can be tempting to view moderation as, well, you shouldn't be eating that, or you shouldn't be relaxing as much, or you shouldn't be you know You're indulging in kind of physical pleasure, and it's it's not that. it's just We talked about this, but it's just it's not just denial of physical goods. That is not the right way to think about moderation. it it It is about finding balance, and balance will be different, right? If you decide to be a Navy SEAL, you can be a balanced Navy SEAL, and a balanced Navy SEAL is going to look like somebody who's like,
00:11:30
Speaker
very good at marathons and very good at navigating instead of a world class at marathons and terrible at navigating, right? Like balance is going to look different depending on the role you take on, but it is about that balance and and you just, you can go too far in the pursuit of effort and excellence to become unbalanced. And I think yeah's so that's a key part of moderation. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, I was looking for knowing the right amount of things that involves that skill to identify what you know the intensity that that's called but for a given situation. ah Do you have role models of of moderation? I provided an and and not a non-role model. Well, so some people that come to mind are I think people who have one common trait. I think it's its it's interesting because it's harder to find I think examples of
00:12:23
Speaker
moderate people in a way, at least for me, than courageous ones. Because you can pick out you know that courageous moment that someone showed their skill, whereas the moderate person almost flies under the radar until they make a large mistake you know and they realize, oh, maybe they weren't so moderate after all. But something that I've noticed amongt some people amongst people who I would consider moderate is the ability to know like what life stage they're in.
Consistent Lifestyle Balance
00:12:49
Speaker
So people who were dedicated, obsessed with their craft maybe in their 20s and 30s or something like this, but also knew they wanted to start a family and that that would require
00:13:06
Speaker
not being as obsessed, jack you know frankly, just not being as good, I think, in some sense, as their craft, as as other people who would have more of that obsessed ah trait to them throughout their entire life. um So maybe that's one kind of a kind of profile that's that's brought into mind, maybe some specific people in the startup type space, or even people who are artists of a kind who move from being someone who creates great works too as they get older, someone who you know fosters a scene of other artists around them and takes on it. They you know they realize as they get older, they take they can take on a different role, perhaps one that involves less of the tortured artists making risks all on their own to being the kind of person who
00:13:55
Speaker
isn't in the spotlight anymore, but supports an ecosystem of other artists. So I think that's those those are two i guess two kinds of profiles, not specific you know a few specific people, I guess, fit in that, but that's ah something I was thinking about. i mean I think about that in sport too, like the kind of people who you're kind of aware when your time is up and you're able to really transition gracefully. so the In the example of like I want to raise a family, that's a person making two choices and maybe those choices are mutually exclusive, but you you know you don't have to start a family. You can continue being grinding in the startup, so you're just making a choice. Then I think about something like sport where it's like,
00:14:31
Speaker
You know, your time is up and not everybody, people kind of can hit a ceiling. And I really respect, you know, there's somebody I know who played professional football for a year. um He's a, he's a philosophy, philosophy student. We were in grad school together and played professional football for a year. And then was kind of like, uh, you know, I'm not. Good enough at it to like, you know, like I'm pretty good and I was good enough to play professional for a year, but I'm not going to. I'm going to kind of pick my battles now and that's not going to be one that I'm not going to, I'm not going to throw my entire life behind this role when there were just like other ones that I can take on and be happy with. Another example I was thinking of was.
Unbalanced Success vs. Consistent Dedication
00:15:10
Speaker
We're going to get into what the stoics have to say about this, but another another example of what why I was, people who kind of find that right balance and then just do it for like 60 years. I really admire that, which is maybe the opposite of what I'm saying but before. But like, I think of people like Stephen King or Haruki Murakami, who are two authors, and they're both people that I think like write for six hours a day. And then I know Murakami, for example, he, he writes, he wakes up, he writes for like six hours. He goes for a long swim. He like has, has dinner. And then he goes to bed and he does that like six days a week for the last 35 years. And it's just somebody who like has really found a lifestyle that is productive. And obviously he's like incredibly successful, but is like balanced, sustaining and fulfillable for him. And it's just kind of like locked in.
00:15:56
Speaker
I think that's a cool so cool kind of life. Obviously, don't force that if you haven't found the right thing. But for people that do, I think, well, that's a that's like and that's a really good balance. Yeah, that's that's almost, i think I think it pushes to some extent against this idea of balance in a way where I think there's that, you may once made a remark that has stuck with me for some time, pulling out you know what Epictetus said about cynics. you know Not everyone is called to be the cynic, um but some people are, and you should you know respect those who are, and perhaps there's an analogy here, which is that
00:16:31
Speaker
Some people, because of their talents, situation, interests, are you know naturally drawn to almost in a way an unbalanced life. But you know they you know because of their consistency, the fact that they realize how good they are, they still manage to, say, avoid a lot of the ah pitfalls of ah you know people who are in a similar situation, but perhaps you know lose their head because of their ego, because of their success, and so on.
00:17:04
Speaker
you know There is a kind of balance in those lives, but ah there's also, I think, a lot of people, they're they're closer to the generalists, where in a sense that there's lots of different goods or maybe one other way to put it is that they have more roles they're playing and they're not as invested in ah you know a single one. so So maybe of the excellent people or of the people that are drawn to a certain, you know not everybody's Stephen King or Murakami, but of those, the moderate ones are the ones that kind of take a joy in the craft and find that consistency and the immoderate ones of the people that have, you know as you said, the first book blows up and they go, they start partying and they kind of they lose that they lose what they loved about writing in the first place. Or I was thinking of the Neil Young line of it's better to
00:17:50
Speaker
burnout than to fade away. And then I was like, well, moderation and stoicism is like is not punk in that sense.
Subcomponents of Moderation
00:17:58
Speaker
Moderation is not punk in that it's not burning out, it's not spiraling. There's that kind of degree of consistency, ah which I admire. Right, right. Cool. Well, let's get into some of these in these subcomponents. So first, we have a few key sources that break down the virtues into their subcomponents. um These people offered like you know clear lists of the virtues and their parts. We shouldn't be understood as parts, literally speaking, but we can know we could say there the ways they
00:18:36
Speaker
their aspects or something of this sort because the Stoics believed in a way in that the virtues are unified and these were different ways of describing the same same kind of skill. But at any rate, we've got two sources pseudo andronicus on the passions and then Aria Stidimus who I quoted earlier on the from the epitome of stoic ethics which comes ah to us through a another um and character named Stobaeus or Stobaeus. And for moderation, Ariastidimus lists four aspects, Pseudo-Andronicus lists seven. I'll go over the four today from Ariastidimus.
00:19:21
Speaker
an interesting character. Perhaps we can go over what we know about him some other other time, but he was actually a mentor advisor to the first emperor of Rome, Augustus. um That's what I'll go over today, are these four aspects. And one other thing I wanted to say about this is that Although we don't have say we don't have lists from Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, some of these other more documented ah you ah characters, we don't have them breaking down the subcomponents in the same way.
00:19:58
Speaker
we do have them, especially Seneca, referencing similar ideas, and both from moderation and from the other virtues and referencing these what would be the subcomponents, even if they don't break things down in the same ah you know list to like fashion, same taxonomy, which does suggest that there was a tradition, a common tradition within stoicism for thinking about the virtues and their different aspects.
00:20:30
Speaker
So an example of that is from Ariasitamus, he breaks down moderation into good discipline, seamliness, modesty, and self-control. And Seneca has a number of lines where he focuses on orderliness, which is another, I think, another reading of good discipline, another common translation of good discipline is orderliness, moderation and seamliness. So that's just one one example where you see that that's that tradition even if it's not not explicit. I should say because we've asked for more citations, the what I'm thinking about is Moral Letters, Lot 92 from Seneca. And he says, what is a happy life, peacefulness, and constant tranquility? Loftiness of mind will bestow this, and consistency which holds fast to good judgment.
00:21:26
Speaker
How are these things reached? If all of truth has been seen, if orderliness, moderation, and seamliness are preserved in actions and a will which is guiltless and kindly, focused upon reason and never departing from it, as lovable as it is admirable, to put it in a nutshell for you, the wise man's mind should be such as befits God.
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah, great. Let's just jump into that breakdown of those those different subtypes. um I always love how that really kind of solidifies this idea for us. But there but but it was absolutely the case that they they thought about these sub areas. And that was a tradition. So it says it's the same thing across the other virtues, same thing we looked at for courage. And it really helps put some kind of meat on the bones of of this idea. Yeah, absolutely. So um the the line again, to just revisit it is moderation. What are those four parts from area of sediments, good discipline, seamliness, modesty and self control. It's also that line is also translated as
00:22:32
Speaker
to self-restraint, our subordinated orderliness, propriety, modesty, and self-control. And we'll get into these four parts as we go. So that first one, good discipline or orderliness, I could be said as and taxia or utaxia which those mean in order or good order. um I think that this can be captured as the knowledge of when something must be done and in what sequence and overall of the order of actions.
00:23:12
Speaker
So you think of this almost as as a kind of discipline, I suppose two things front to mind, knowing what the right action is in a given situation, and then having the skill to fulfill that action or the actions that are required of you in a competent ah way. So that's that's that first part, orderliness. Yeah, I always like to think about these in terms of the opposite, too. Like, what would it look like with somebody that lacks orderliness or lacks good discipline? Well, you see that all the time. People will walk into a martial arts club and they go, well, I want to be world champion. Well, you've kind of got the it's fine as a concept, but you've kind of got the order of events there mixed up. You've got a you know first you got to train for 10 years and then and then maybe or maybe you'll go pro um and you see that with kids, you know, like, oh, I want to
00:24:05
Speaker
write a book or I want to make a movie and it's like, well, okay, what are the actions that make you the kind of person that can do this, that can be this kind of person? And do you have the orderliness, the good discipline to pursue those actions in order? Or do you try to jump to the end and you find yourself frustrated? I think it's it's a great it's a great lesson. yeah I think it it brings out why I think it's right to see these people who are dedicated to their craft as moderate. You know you mentioned Stephen King and Murakami earlier because they exemplify this good discipline, this orderliness in their day-to-day by you know setting this aside you know those six hours and being of the day just to write, to focus on their craft without distractions, what have you. And I think you can see that in people who have
00:24:56
Speaker
a different pattern of life as well, where they don't have that same focus on a specific craft, but you know maybe they're the manager or CEO type where they have tons of things that are juggling, but they're able to do that in a skillful way without overlooking their health, their relationships outside of their career and so on. And I think it also brings to mind how close the stoic virtues are to skill. And it's about cultivating abilities, not so much, you know, it's easy to think of virtue as something that's purely moral in a modern sense where you're following rules, uh, aim to be a good person, but you also have these ideas of skill, building up your capacity to do things, you know, cultivating yourself, your mind to, uh, be excellent in your craft, your relationships and so on.
00:25:55
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. like This idea that you can have you can be you can lack excellence without being immoral in a colloquial sense. So you can be a very nice person who's very kind, gentle, But you don't have your life in order when you set out to make plans you you don't you don't go about the right order of things and So that's colloquially we would say well, they're not a bad person But the stoic question is that question as you said of like, you know, are you an excellent person?
00:26:26
Speaker
Would an excellent person be able to do this? Yes. Well, then you're, there's an issue with your excellence. There's an, and that kind of excellence for them is, is I think it's like tightly connected with the moral and we don't even need to go, like, obviously there's like robust stoic theory that supports that, but the idea is just that like. At the end of the day, you're you're not going to be able to do the moral things well if you don't have these things that colloquially today don't seem to be about morality. If you're not the kind of person that is you know has discipline, there's a lot of great things, morally great things that we would consider today that can only be done with a lot of discipline. um So there's there's there's a connection there, but the Stoics would have seen those as being much tighter or different sides of the same puzzle or piece, as opposed to today where we we kind of, most of us separate them if you're a non-Stoic. Right, right. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Cool. So that's orderliness. Our second aspect is propriety or seamliness.
00:27:26
Speaker
Propriety is the knowledge of suitable and unsuitable motions. ah That's from the epitomistoic ethics. And motions here mean impulses. so I'll read another section that makes this clear. They say that what sets impulse moving is nothing other than a spontaneously impulsive impression of what is appropriate. While in genus, impulse is a motion of the soul toward something. So that's that movement towards something. I suppose you can think of it as, you know, what comes before that, ah you know, you decide to pick up
00:28:11
Speaker
a glass, that motion is that internal decision, that internal impulse.
Propriety and Social Norms
00:28:18
Speaker
And then the rest of that movement is and depending on the control of your body and the external world fulfilled by you reaching and grabbing the glass and so on. So propriety is the knowledge of What impulses are suitable and suitable? What decisions are ideal or not? And again, you can think of this perhaps as seamliness or maybe even fittingness. You know, what is fitting for the situation? What is appropriate for the situation? And it's this has to do with that stoic idea of role ethics. You know, what is your what's happening in the current
00:29:04
Speaker
in the present and then you know what roles do you serve in the present is is what this aspect of moderation ah is all about. So perhaps you know one example of this could be if you're on a special diet but you happen to be visiting your you know grandparents who ah make a special dish that violates whatever diet you're on and might be exceptionally offended if you don't have that dish, then would it be more moderate to stick with your diet or would it be more moderate to break that discipline, that restraint on what you're eating and instead play that role of you know being a good grandchild or what have you. And I think you know we there there might there are going to be different cases for for this one, but I think you know some
00:29:53
Speaker
cases, it's clear that the more moderate action is not staying disciplined with respect to your diet, but ah doing the appropriate thing and you know eating eating that dish as a sign of respect or appreciation of of your grandparents. Yeah, again, i think i mean I like the grandparent example. Because again, i think ah what I think of all these, I think of like, ah a teenager doesn't have these. like I think of the opposite. I think, oh, i just the teenager. And and so there's this this aspect of being a teenager where you become incredibly, um this time period, where you become incredibly kind of moralistic and like absolute. And like you know you know you imagine the example of somebody who, and not to say I disagree with this position, but somebody who's who's you know discovered vegetarianism or veganism,
00:30:36
Speaker
And it's not only like, I'm not going to eat this meat, but like, you know, I refuse to be at this family dinner if you're cooking meat or serving it here. And, you know, and you you could point to that person and being like, okay, well, you, Maybe, because there's less adults that do that. And one answer you could give is that, well, adults are actually losing something. Teenagers are better and the world breaks us down. And now as I get older, I'm moving further away from that idea that teenagers had it figured out. And I'm moving more towards the idea, well, there's some subtlety here. And some people, yeah, some people aren't true to themselves. And some people give up on what they believe in.
00:31:14
Speaker
But other people um you know you got to choose you gotta to pick and choose your battles, you gotta be ah sensitive to the context that that of what's app appropriate in the context you're in. And so that kind of propriety I think is something you pick up as as you get older. the The other things, I think a grandparent dinner example is great. you know or the the you know the the the Thanksgiving dinner where people are saying things you don't agree with and trying to trying to ah balance that appropriately. The other thing this makes me think of, we're going to get into some philosophy of emotions here, but
00:31:49
Speaker
I talk a lot in a simplified form as saying that emotions are caused by value judgments, which is to say when you think something's bad, you feel a negative emotion. If I think something is going to kill me and that's bad, I'm going to be afraid. If I think something's going to be good for me, I'm going to be happy. but the stoics also talk about and Margaret Graver talks about this in Stoicism and Emotion. The Stoics also talk about how there's two things. There's the value judgment, but there's also the judgment that it is appropriate to emote in this situation, that it's appropriate to feel the emotion. so there's both that like you know If someone passes, there's both the value that's bad that they've passed, and it's appropriate for me to cry. It's appropriate for me to grieve externally. and so you can You can attack the value judgment, but you can also attack that view on appropriateness.
00:32:39
Speaker
and so You know, I mean, different cultures will respond to grief differently. And one thing you'd say is you'd say, well, you know, most cultures think that dying is a bad thing, but they might have different judgments about the appropriate way to show that or kind of the appropriate way, not just to show it, but to but actually to kind of to feel it and to do you lean into it? Do you let take over you or do you kind of like hold back and attempt to restrain it? And so I think i think um what's being referred to here about like, you know, the knowledge of what motions are suitable and unsuitable, I don't think it it can't be that whole view of you know what is the right thing to value or not value because it can't be about value judgments because that's just way too large of a category to be a subcategory of moderation. Maybe it is, but I think that's a pretty big category right because courage is also about knowing what's worth being afraid of and what what's not being worth afraid of and that's also just
00:33:32
Speaker
uh, what's a suitable motion to run away and what's an unsuitable motion, uh, you know, to stand your ground, for example, or something like this. Um, so I think, I think there's also this connection here, that idea of, uh, you know, not just, okay, now that you're feeling the motion, now that you're feeling the the the feeling, is it suitable or not? Is it appropriate or not? And do you lean into it or do you try to, to hold, to hold back? Yeah, I think what makes it distinct is that social aspect to it, which is what you know questions about what, how do I express myself, bring to mind because you're expressing of course, and usually in the presence of others and communicating something. And I think propriety, that's one way in which I think propriety is probably useful
00:34:20
Speaker
ah translation because you know what it has to do with what's proper in a given community, society, and so on. So that's when you're bringing into mind these judgments about roles, culture that can be relative in a certain sense. Of course, not completely.
Understanding Modesty
00:34:40
Speaker
It's not subjective. There is a right answer, but there's no universal universal rules because because you do have those those differences in circumstance, ah society, and culture and so on.
00:34:58
Speaker
Yeah, great point. All right, sweet. We got two more ah to go through. So we have orderliness, propriety, and then modesty. So modesty is a knowledge which is able to avoid correct reproach. So you can think of it as a kind of self-respect or um that ability to act in an honorable way so that
00:35:31
Speaker
People who are also virtuous might not say, you know, you're acting a little bit too big for your britches. your you know You don't want to be self-aggrandizing and you all want to avoid proper criticism that you might get from someone who you respect for being self-aggrandizing. But you're also not being called to be have a show, any sense of false humility. I think modesty for the Stoics represents you know knowledge about ah knowledge that's related to a kind of self-respect about how good you are in a given situation. And it's not a hubris, excessive pride, but it's also not a false humility. you know If you are really good at a given thing, being modest in this sense doesn't
00:36:22
Speaker
Uh, you know, calls you not to grandize yourself or be becoming about it, but it also doesn't call you to, you know, call to pay any sense of what might be called false humility or something of that sort. So this is about self knowledge. Is that it? Like not under understanding what you are and then not acting in a way that is above that or below that.
00:36:47
Speaker
Yeah, so I'll read from um a commentary that that explains this a little bit, explains this, or add some detail to this. So the third species of moderation, Chrysopus list, is the sense of honor, a demo sign. which is what i tre was we're using for modesty. This comes close to the Aristotelian and wider Greek notion of ados. The ados is a feeling of shame, not of virtue a virtue. The sense of honor as against the feeling of shame is preventative. It is a sense of what ought to be done and of the honor in doing the right thing and the dishonor of not doing it, given that virtue is the only.
00:37:29
Speaker
Good. So I think it is that it is a knowledge a kind of self-knowledge, but also ah having the self-respect, I suppose, to act in a noble, honorable way that... And here, again, we we see the social aspects that wouldn't be up for criticism from others, or perhaps if you want to get into some lines from Epictetus, it wouldn't be up for criticism from your own self-image. And and that's that's how it's linked to the the sense of of honor, both internal and external.
00:38:09
Speaker
Okay, so maybe maybe correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but one way that I would think about this, I would think, okay, what does it look like to think that? It's to think, this is beneath me, or this is not appropriate of me. And now, like when somebody asks you to do something stupid or bad, or like you know Why don't you go and insult that person? And you think, well, that's beneath me. That's not appropriate. And in that way, it's a kind of a preventative recognition of your own honor that's preventative from you doing something shameful. Is that is that something like this?
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I think that's good. um Another example of of this is sometimes people have an image of that coach or perhaps their parents who you know maybe they're thinking about binging on something and then they imagine their coach and their parents you know critiquing them for doing that. and And I think the healthiest versions of this that prevents them from binging and you know turns their attention back to something more worthwhile. Yeah. So if Eidos is the shame, if that is like the, I'm not mad, I'm disappointed of the coach, ah then modesty is like, you know, acting that out yourself before it gets to that point, right? Like an acting and internalizing that and having that as a part of you. I'm trying to think of the opposite example and I think of the person who has no modesty
00:39:33
Speaker
Again, it would be i think the end of a teenager, right? And the teenager's asked to do something silly, peer pressured in doing something and they're like, sure, whatever, I'll do it. I'm not afraid of anything. And it's like, well, maybe there's nothing to be afraid of there, but maybe you're kind of crossing the line. um You're doing something that's beneath you by acting like there's no value, acting like it doesn't matter if you're careless with your actions. yeah yeah Yeah, that's a good example. Yeah, I suppose you have you have the example of doing something that's beneath you, maybe shooting too high. And that's that's where that self-knowledge comes in. um Doing something that isn't a real sense above you that you shouldn't be doing.
00:40:11
Speaker
Another example that it comes to mind is I think a lot of healthy and ah competent working cultures have an idea of no no task as long as it pushes you know the team forward is beneath you, which is another way I think of capturing modesty where even if you're in a higher up position and you see something you know lower level that's gone wrong or something in the details and make some customer service, ah Uh, you know, ticket needs to be handled or something like this. Like you do it or you, you know, you move it instead of thinking about, Oh, you know, I'm on a higher level now. I don't need to be managing like these small, tiny details and so on. So I think that's another, maybe a way you see a kind of modesty in, in organizations. Yeah, that would be, that would be, uh, being, if you passing that up would be immodest by being too high, too high in your horse.
The Power of Self-Control
00:41:09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. As opposed to immodest about not taking yourself seriously.
00:41:13
Speaker
Cool, cool. All right, so our last one, self-control. Self-control is a knowledge that does not overstep the bounds of what has come to light in accord with the correct reasoning. Another interpretation of this from Diogenes Laertes is, the state which is invincible cannot be lessened by pleasures. And to me, this is, I think, that part of moderation, which is that character trait to recognize that something is the right thing and that you should do something. That's sort of the you know that reason shining its light and then acting on it.
00:41:58
Speaker
That's how I think about it. It's avoiding weakness of will. You know, of course, it's so extremely strictly speaking, believe in weakness of will, but it's avoiding that kind of thing. Having the self-control to recognize, you know, this is the correct ah action, correct response, and then acting accordingly. And that's why yeah I think Diogenes Laergis, his explanation is is really nice. You know, you're invincible in a sense. You recognize something ought to be done and it doesn't matter what temptations you're facing to avoid it. Whether that comes from wanting to do something more pleasurable or from avoiding pain, what have you.
00:42:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think the, I mean, I think that was really well put. I think that's right. It's the idea to be motivated by what reason, you know, the right thing to do. But I, again, trying to pull up these counter examples when the Aristotle talks a lot about self-control and the Nicomachean ethics and talks about weakness of will, which is, this is, and cratia, which is to be cratosis is power. So it's like having power in power where accresia is lacking power. And so Aristotle talks about how people that have weakness of will are actually comparatively not that bad of people because they at least identify the right thing and want to do the right thing. They're just kind of weak. They're being overpowered.
00:43:23
Speaker
And so you think of somebody who is like this, who's in self-control, which is to say, well, when they set a plan for themselves, they can't be overpowered. ah Nothing will knock them off that plan. No amount of pleasure, presumably the opposite of pain. will will they they They set a goal and they will they will continue towards
Interconnectedness of Virtues
00:43:43
Speaker
it. Now, this is why the Stoics talk about all the virtues being inter-entailing, right? Because any of these ones we just talked about, you could have and still be a bad person. Like you could have self-control and be a bad person if, you know, reason reveals to you the wrong kinds of things, I guess, or if you set bad plans. But it's just that, as you said, it's that idea of not being knocked, knocked off. I mean, I guess the stoic definition here is, is you know, don't overstep the bounds of what has come to light in accordance with the correct reason. So maybe the stoics are building that in a bit.
00:44:17
Speaker
um but But yeah, that's the way I like to think about that, is that is you just like you can't you don't fail to to achieve the plans you set about. Right, right. Nice. So those are those are our four aspects we have um orderliness, propriety, modesty, self control. Something I like about these is, you know, if you're thinking about how do I improve in moderation, the I think but a lot of the obvious ah examples that might come to mind is, you know, maybe removing something someplace where I'm acting in a moderate way where I'm not acting with.
00:44:52
Speaker
self-restraint. And that's always one legitimate strategy, but I think some these subcomponents bring to mind other ideas. you know Where can you improve orderliness? Are there some places where I'm not understanding what needs to be done and the right sequence? you know how to What's the actual plan for making that happen? Or propriety? Have I had been moderate in the right ah situations, thinking about this maybe from more
Personal Growth Through Moderation
00:45:22
Speaker
of a social aspect, my fulfilling my role in a way that displays this virtue of moderation, self-control and such. And then modesty, you recognizing what's truly beneath oneself, avoiding that while not you know aggrandizing yourself and making mistaken judgments on that front.
00:45:45
Speaker
Um, and then finally this, the self-control, you know, where are places where you recognize what needs to be done and but aren't following through and how can you, how can you tweak that? So I think those going through these subcomponents is useful for you know thinking about different ideas to actually become more moderate. And anyway, that's, that's how I think about it. I hope, uh, I hope y'all are able to take away some, some ideas on that front as well. Yeah, I think it's incredibly helpful. I also hear this list and I go, oh boy, you definitely want to invite some stoics to your next party. There's some wild people. um But that's that's that's just that that's just the joke I'm making. I think these are the the really are the building blocks of like a good life.
00:46:27
Speaker
And I mean everything you said I think was was bang on Caleb and it just also just gives us positive things, right? Like so often we think of self-control of like, damn it, i you know, i I broke my diet, I'm ashamed of myself or i'm I'm angry with myself or I was lazy. And just think of it as like building a positive skill, right? Like do you put the first things first? um You know, do you do you recognize when you know what? What modesty looks like in this situation or you know, do you have self-respect that's able to motivate you this these these kinds of like positive goals to aim at is is a nice alternative to the shame of
00:47:05
Speaker
I find moderation often gets talked about like you either moderate or you're like shameful. You know, you're either like achieving it or you're bad. And this is like, well, this is like, okay, well, now we have this kind of positive model to build and to grow and and develop towards, which for me is a much better conception of self-development.
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:47:22
Speaker
Yep. Absolutely. Awesome. Thanks, Gil. Thanks, Michael.
00:47:29
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become more. Stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.