Transcript
Jen: noisy so Yeah, doesn't
Jamie: Really? Gosh.
Red D: Yes, I'm sure listeners will, hopefully some sound, some of the sound can be in the editing.
Jamie: Okay.
Red D: Not that I do editing, but you know what i mean, like in the producing.
Jen: it? Yeah. does it automatically doesn't it yeah
Jamie: Red doesn't edit, she produces.
Red D: Well, as in, there's some automatic selections, but I'm like, yes, smooth the sound out, please. um Okay, where were we? Sorry, everybody, moment a little technical...
Red D: kfuffle Let's blame it on the heat, like the lift in my building that just stopped working once it went to a certain and temperature. And it was on the day they were coming to value my apartment. I was like, Oh, i know the one day it's six years, the lift isn't working.
Red D: i was very stressed, but it didn't make a difference.
Jen: No, at least you weren't in the lift.
Jamie: sort
Jen: Thank you.
Red D: That's true. Someone was in the lift.
Jen: It's
Jamie: oh
Red D: But honestly, I think if you take a lift to the first floor, then you deserve what happens to you.
Jamie: What an amazing sauna experience.
Red D: Sorry, controversial.
Jen: all worse.
Jamie: What if this person is mobility impaired or elderly red? Shame.
Red D: I think it's good exercise to walk up the stairs. One flight of stairs. Otherwise you become more impaired. Anyway, I guess that but this podcast is about to be cancelled.
Jamie: Rightly so.
Red D: Does anyone remember what point we were on? i think Jenny, you're getting ready to dive deep. Oh, the question. The question about, yeah.
Jen: No question. Yeah, yeah. i I think we've done that one, haven't we?
Red D: We did.
Jamie: Yeah, how how could anyone from Starfleet endorse that was sort of a very good question.
Red D: We did.
Jamie: um Because you're you're right, the interpretation, which is that um they were going to force it on all of the folk attacking them, suggests that people can't opt out.
Jen: Yeah, I thought I had misunderstood or something.
Jamie: And so the only possible justification is, we'll do it to save our own lives because we're going to be killed otherwise, and ah trust us, we won't hurt people.
Red D: Jamie, what about the, I'm sure you'll know much more about this, is it utilitarianism, which is like, as long as it's better for more people than less people, it's okay or something. Is that the one?
Jamie: Well, that always falls down in that that inevitably leads to ah minorities being brutalised in such a way that qualitatively it has an unpleasant tendency to outweigh the quantitative benefits that utilitarianism is theoretically intended to drive. And this is a longstanding criticism of that a philosophy of thought, um as enlightened for their time as Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill's, its protagonists, were.
Red D: And that is exactly why I threw that to Jamie's corner.
Jamie: Buff my halo.
Red D: Because I knew you could amaze and astound this. um
Red D: Great. So was that my point? This is why I need to write down exactly what I'm doing. What was that Jamie's point?
Jen: it's originally mine, but...
Jamie: No, no, how dare how dare you steal Jenny's point?
Red D: yeah,
Jamie: That was Jenny's point.
Jen: was originally right but
Red D: it's Jamie's turn. It's just that Jamie spoke the most recently. and That threw me off. But Jamie, it's over to you.
Jamie: Don't gaslight me. Gosh. um So i I had a couple of... um minor details that I thought I'd just throw in as one. So first of all, though, we sort of can't partially covered this. Chakotay has a nameless henchperson who's often the name of Plot. That means he's a hero. Ergo, you know, he has Plot Armour.
Jamie: umt And don't you guys give me the fact that her name was Kaplan, and, you know, they mentioned her name numerous times to disguise the fact that they were telegraphing Plot Armour. He has a nameless henchperson who was killed.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, the minute I saw her, i was like, oh, she'd be dead. She'd be dead.
Jamie: What?!
Red D: very lucky Because of what you're describing, I knew she was just a plot point in a bigger story.
Jamie: Why would you think that?
Jen: yeah
Jamie: That's so harsh!
Jamie: She beats it. You have- Oh dear.
Jen: if she was not if she was not intended to die they would have put someone else there you know like um neelix or someone
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: There was a part of me that really hoped that when like they picked up the comm badge or whatever on the part, we were going to find out she survived and they beam her back and then they start to fight Chakotay. was like, wow, they really dispatched to her quite promptly.
Jamie: yeah Yeah, they they didn't need any more medium-tier characters. They were like, you you've you know you got a job to do here. You've got to do You've done it.
Jamie: Goodbye. um So clearly clearly they were trying to ah to maintain budget at that late stage of the ah series.
Red D: You played a lost person.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. So at that sort of level of the other sort of two minor things that I wanted to talk about, which are, you know, similar is I absolutely love the fact that Tom Paris suddenly found the region of space very challenging to pilot captain when ah he was offered the chance of cleaning the warp cores after he says it's so boring.
Jamie: But and this is the main point of this trivial sort of trio. Can we talk about the continuity of Riley's hair?
Red D: Okay, sure.
Jamie: So first of all, she has long blonde hair. Then Chikote finds out that they're all bored by finding her that she has no hair whatsoever. Then sort of ah when she's sort of explaining everything to him, she has long blonde hair.
Jamie: Then later on in the episode, she's bald. And then later on in the episode, she has long blonde hair again. So can we talk about what's going on here?
Red D: Wait, is that continuity or is that switching between the borgness what up or not borgness? I've kind of stopped listening after the first few switches. Sorry, Jamie.
Jamie: she yeah she's She has long hair, she's bald. She has long hair, she's bald. The sequence continues without any explanation. um It would be the first thing I'd be asking if I was to create
Red D: What don't you understand about hair? I'm confused. Jamie, I think you can answer this better than I can.
Jen: well I know the reason for the first bald moment because you know you know she usually wears hair but then when he comes out and discovers she's walk that's when she's being worked on you know you can see the sort of you know what are those um yeah but she's having her implants
Jamie: So what, the Borg have like a wig?
Red D: Well, there she has a wig to disguise that she's a Borg. Yeah.
Jamie: Well, no one ever tells us that, though, so I'm like, is it some cool alien stuff, or is it a wig? I need to know, guys. I need to know. I can't be left not knowing.
Red D: There's a lot I don't know about her, I've got to be honest, but I think this was a wig. I
Jen: Unless, you know, bald nanoprobes just grew her hair back really quickly.
Jamie: What if it was the actress's real hair, but she wore a bald wig?
Red D: Oh, I see what you're saying, yes.
Jamie: That makes it a meta-wig while not actually being a wig.
Red D: Okay, what's happening in reality and what's happening in the in her character different two different things. Of course, she has hair. That already could have been a real hair. I looked her up. She does have blonde hair.
Jamie: that's That's all we're going to go with. She does have blonde hair. You guys don't want to dress the glaring continuity errors here.
Red D: mess yeah
Jamie: is here
Red D: What? I'm confused. over this so Do you literally mean continuity or do you just not understand how a wig works?
Jamie: Look, I understand how a wig works, but I reckon that they didn't actually sort of edit for that and make it explicit.
Red D: I'm confused.
Jamie: I think they probably just realised too late that when she's discovered, she's bald, and then, like, they filmed that well, well after they filmed the subsequent scenes where, you know, she has a long head of hair, and they're like, fuck it, we can't be arsed to go back and correct this and film it all again.
Jamie: So they just left it as she was randomly bald and randomly blonde at... different bits of the episode without addressing the continuity error.
Red D: I didn't notice. i have to be honest.
Jen: See, yeah, well, yeah, I do.
Red D: Jamie, did you notice? Do you know what Jamie means?
Jamie: this You know what this this podcast needs? Rigor.
Jen: I think I could explain away these specific instances of baldness according to the plot, actually.
Red D: Do it.
Jen: Yeah, yeah. See, the first one is when she's not, so she normally wears a wig, right? Because she likes to look human and if I have her, she only takes off for specific reasons. So she first takes it off when she is being worked on. You can see they're doing stuff to her implants in her head so they take the off to her.
Jen: And then I believe the second time she's bored. Isn't that when they're under attack and they're trying to chance and, you know, if they're under attack, maybe she didn't have time to put a wig
Red D: Very good point, Jenny. Very good point.
Jen: on. That's how I imagine it in my head.
Jamie: Where is the natural cynicism that I have trained this podcast in?
Red D: ah
Jamie: That's what I want to know.
Red D: Are we done discussing her wig bold, wig bold, wig boldness?
Jen: Yes, please.
Jamie: i um I am done with just accepting the assumption it's a week on questions. That is correct.
Red D: I mean, I have to be honest, I'm not a big noticer of hair or facial hair. so I think some of this, but I think there
Jamie: i I know, Red, or you would have realised that your interviewer today was coming on to you.
Red D: I think Jenny's correct. There plot driven reasons why she, for when she had hair and when she didn't have hair.
Jamie: When she had her, she was coming on to Chakotay.
Red D: How would have.
Jamie: When she didn't, she wasn't.
Red D: Yes, exactly. And how would have Chakotay known she was a Borg and not pure human if he hadn't stumbled across her when she was bald.
Jamie: Because everyone else in the scene was a Borg.
Red D: Good point. Good point.
Jamie: People had implants. They were working on her. She said, ah used to be in the Borg.
Red D: Okay, we don't all have photographic memory. um God.
Jamie: That's what this podcast needs. Photographic memories, guys. Buck up.
Red D: I think of myself as having a really good memory at work, but outside of it, it's a bit less. Good. I forgot a better word to say. um Okay, moving on to my turn, I think.
Red D: I kind of want to throw in, ah no, I'll stick to my order. But... um two things happened that really just made kind of be a little bit frustrated about the Star Trek approach, which was they will really just leap to the aid of any old distress call without, like, you know, doing any kind of diligence ah check, I guess. And they'll just beam any old thing aboard. Like, I know that Borg is supposed to be dead, but as they clearly showed that scene, that was quite a risk to take.
Jen: Oh yeah, it's dangerous. Oh, risky.
Red D: So... When Chakotay just heard the distressed, breathy thing and he was like, we gotta to go and be ourselves onto to the planet even though we don't know what we're getting ourselves into. i was like, that wasn't.
Jamie: so which which would you class as a worse annual thing to beam on board?
Red D: Neelix.
Jamie: a dead Borg or a pair of live Ferengi?
Red D: That's actually kind of tough because the Ferengi, you might lose all your money. Which is actually pretty bad. Do you have a preference, Jamie?
Jamie: Gosh, no. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.
Red D: ah ja Jenny?
Jen: Oh, I'm definitely a deferring to be quite frank. I think it was very, it was risky and and um slightly scary.
Red D: Oh...
Jamie: bold, courageous, and rash.
Jen: i quite liked it though that they took that risk to bring ball on board and board the ball queue because it was added to the drama.
Red D: Yes, yes. that's I mean, I'm not saying it shouldn't have happened, but sometimes there's a little bit of a, yeah, mistakes were made.
Jamie: Mistakes were made.
Red D: Not life-threatening. Well, actually somewhere of but but actually, someone died.
Jamie: Weren't they? Weren't they?
Red D: take that back. They were pretty life-threatening.
Jamie: That wasn't just a nameless ensign red. Kaplan was someone's daughter.
Red D: Kaplan died. So, yes, mistakes were made, i have to say. That's my point, I guess. Jenny, back to you.
Jen: Oh, well, um I have a bit more Jane we love. Or in fact, Katie Mulder, I just loved her delivery of just one word. The way she said, all right, when she first hears what the former Borger asking her to do.
Jen: And she says, and Chakotay says, you know, hear them out. She says, right, the way she says it, and with her expression, it just delivered so many reactions.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: And just that one word is like, Laura Burrus, Orrach confusion interest and entry but extreme reluctance and suspicion at the same time, but with you know that stoicism and and loyalty to want to listen because Chakotay says she should listen, and I just thought wow that is there's quite some acting to express all that with that one word and that one look.
Red D: I think that is a lovely point and I kind of want to go back and watch it. But what I've also want to say is I think there's the Englishness in you the Britishness in you that is really resonating with that delivery because when she said, all right, the undercurrent was like, are you effing mad?
Jamie: That's pretty, yeah.
Jen: Yes, yes.
Red D: All right. So don't want to deliver it.
Jen: yeah
Red D: Like, con
Jamie: That's how we say it in GB Red. That's how we say it, you mad.
Jen: she she She had a later line as well that was like, ah you know, that so like like they they want us they want us to reactivate a ball ship.
Red D: ah because,
Jen: And the way she said that was that was really with her eyes saying WTF.
Red D: Yes.
Jen: and
Red D: You know, like all those memes about like working, like you know, when you're off the OEB the UK and they're like, like the, like what Brits mean with when, when they say like, oh yeah, this is not bad.
Jamie: 9 to 5. Alright.
Red D: This is the worst work I've ever seen in my entire life. So, um,
Jen: Yes, yes, they say fine.
Jamie: all right
Red D: so um
Jen: and They worry me, I've seen those memes because mostly you know you agree with a lot of it but there are a couple where I i use those words but not they don't mean them to mean those so now I'm terrified that anyone who sees them I think because i I say fine quite a lot but genuinely mean you know it's fine but I think that's quite often in British culture it's
Red D: I know. Yeah.
Jen: It means someone's very angry.
Red D: Yes. I mean, you can't believe every meme you read because then you're not not supposed to ask people how they are when you email them and stuff. And i'm like, no, come on guys. Let's just be, no, no, that's ridiculous.
Jen: Oh, I can't do that. I've been talking far too much about the weather to our American clients this week, which I definitely should not be doing, but I can't help myself. It's
Red D: It's okay. I think that's, that's part of bonding. I better be honest. um
Jen: the traditional British small talk.
Red D: Exactly. um Anything else, Jenny? Well, just all right. I wish I could deliver like Jamie, but I really can't.
Jen: I know I just can't even get close.
Jamie: Alright.
Jen: Right? Oh no, sounds gone.
Red D: ah Jamie's doing a good good impression over there. and Speaking of Jamie, are you ready with your next ah point? Oh.
Red D: I'd love to know why he goes black and back, but that's a question for later. Oh.
Jamie: wait, what? Sorry, I was meshing myself.
Red D: I don't know, like your camera, are you turning it off or is it turning itself off?
Jamie: I think it's... ah That might be well so while I sort of consult the notes. um
Red D: see, I see, yes. Okay, that makes sense.
Jamie: So, yeah. um Does the colony have a name before I jump in?
Red D: Co-op? don't know.
Jamie: Yeah, okay. yeah no that's that's perfect. I would like to make a flag for ah Co-op Colony HR about immediate sexual harassment of the patient the moment that the patient comes back to consciousness. I think there are grave and disturbing ah HR violations going on there that should be investigated, and it's been far too long, this episode, since we had an ah HR reference. So please discuss the ah HR implications of coming on to the patient the moment that they come to when they still have neural damage and you want to seduce them into a co-op mind loop to frankly manipulate the situation so that they reactivate a borg cube and you can force thousands of other people into your co-op mind loop. Discuss.
Jamie: From an HR perspective.
Red D: I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think there might be some fox sexual harassment going on outside because there's a lot of screaming.
Jamie: a suck We don't care, Red, unless it's literally waking back into consciousness about to be co-opted into a fox co-opt mind loop.
Jen: I think we can hear it.
Red D: Yeah, so...
Red D: I... um I might have to close my windows, so I'll let Jenny start while I close my windows for one second.
Jamie: That is hilarious. I can hear it.
Jen: Yeah, I can actually hear it as well.
Jamie: Wow, that's a fox orgy.
Jen: It really is. Wow.
Jamie: Red's gone away from her computer, but I want to know what she's going to do about the fox orgy, because, like, I've heard that short of joining in, you can't really do much about them.
Jen: I
Jen: think she's going close the window.
Jamie: I thought there was a slight pause when he went, I think, and I was like, she's going to say join it?
Jen: overheat in the name of podcasts.
Jamie: No, that's awful.
Jen: No, no, yeah, in the name of Fox Sex and his free podcast, she's going to the window and overheat.
Jamie: HR compliance?
Jamie: So, red Red, there's a lot of speculation about what you just did there, from ah close the window to throw rocks to join in.
Jen: What commitment to the cause?
Jamie: For the curious listeners amongst us, can you confirm which of the three you took as an option?
Jamie: oh There's a lot of silence here as Red considers what answer her lawyer will get behind.
Jen: Oh no, you've lost the order.
Red D: Oh, sorry. I maybe join into the screaming and be like, where are you? Because I could see one fox just chilling, but another fox going mental, I think in the undergrowth.
Red D: And close my windows. I don't have any rocks. And I couldn't see where the fox was.
Jamie: So, joined in the noise. ah Close the window.
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: That's not a no to join in. Excellent. Interesting.
Red D: Didn't I say joined in? I said made a noise. Okay, never mind. ah What did Jenny say about the very erotic post-op scene? Post-recovery scene?
Jen: Well, we've mostly focused on the possibilities of how you're going to stop the fox noise, to be completely honest.
Jamie: if
Red D: Okay, so I didn't miss anything.
Jen: this
Jamie: it it felt like It felt relevant to the HR violation of Chakotay being um basically seduced from the moment he woke up in a bid to enslave thousands of people into a co-op mind loop, which is quite a lot of effort for a supermarket publicity campaign.
Red D: Oh yes.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: But I think we can agree they probably have a captive market by the end of the episode.
Jen: Yeah. i
Red D: I mean, I thought it was, let's go ahead, Jenny.
Jen: Oh, no, i was just gonna say would agree with Jamie. I mean, it's outrageous. The patient, neurodimages just woken up. Disgraceful.
Red D: Did anyone else have?
Jen: Is it violating the Hippocratic oath, surely?
Red D: Yes, for sure. but Did anyone else have a sensation or memory? Not that I've seen many films like this, actually, but, you know, there's a lot of... ah I mean, i I guess... I mean, I should know more history, but I kind of had a flashback to World War I, World War two and men in hospitals recovering, and a lot of men, like, hooking up, marrying their nurses eventually, right?
Red D: This is a thing that happened a lot. There was something...
Jen: Yep.
Jamie: So when you say you had a flashback, Rip Yeah, but were you the airman or the nurse?
Red D: about I was there. don't know. And like I said...
Jamie: No, sorry Crazy
Red D: something about it that reminded me because ah I was like, this is, you're right. It's wrong, but it's kind of romantic.
Red D: And what did you think?
Jen: It's understandable, for sure.
Jamie: Yeah, but from an HR perspective, we wanted to hear the HR of yours Team, come on
Red D: It's understandable.
Red D: Oh, yeah, mean, that would not fly in an NHS trust, I hope, I believe.
Jamie: and Why is this an NHS? Oh, yeah, of course, because, you know, she's a nurse. Fine. And also, can we talk about a Romulan looking after a human?
Red D: Is that such a big deal? What don't I know about Romulans?
Jamie: ah They hate humans. And yet, you know, through the power of the mind loop, he doesn't mind them.
Red D: I think I've forgotten about that hatred. Or star Trek does such a good job of showing people cooperating, a bit like you know the odd person cooperating that I...
Jamie: Yeah, man. The Romans are like a rival, mysterious and inscrutable empire who, you know, are at war with the Federation and get up to all sorts of skullduggery, including secret societies dedicated to A, hopeless causes, and B, the destruction of all droids.
Red D: Oh yeah.
Red D: know
Jamie: Spoiler, later series of Star Trek.
Red D: Ah, okay. Yeah, my my Star Trek hasn't had that much romulence.
Jamie: card
Red D: Like, Voyager and Deep Space Nine? Do they have... I don't think Deep Space Nine has many.
Jamie: Ah, Star Trek Picard. That's the one with the Druids the Romulan secret societies.
Red D: Ah, yes. and What do you think about being able to have a memory... What was happening? She was touching her face, but he could feel it in his face.
Red D: She was...
Jamie: Megarotic experience.
Red D: Oh, no.
Jamie: Feeling each other's feelings.
Red D: I mean, there was a bit of a moment where she was like, where I was like, please, can the scene end? And she was like, we only have an hour or two left.
Jen: Yeah.
Red D: And then it's like, that's more than enough time or whatever they were saying. was like, cut. It's time to cut. This is, I mean, very clever, I don't know, but Star Trek always finds these very clever ways of being pretty intense, but not really show you anything.
Red D: This was a very good example. Anything else to add? Oh, the foxes have stopped. Thank good lord.
Jen: I mean I didn't really understand why it was so... why that experience would be erotic. I was a bit like well... you know because she... if someone someone touches...
Jamie: feeling what each other's feeling and they're both presumably into each other and then they go off and presumably get it on but they get it on while each being able to feel what the other person is feeling which is like you know weird
Jen: Oh yeah I think I'd find it weird and distracting not erotic but who knows.
Red D: Okay. I mean, I think a a part of that, I mean, we are just throwing it out in theories, but um they were very like attracted to each other and then had this very intimate experience of the shared mind and memories and then added with this now touch kind of sensation.
Jamie: Throwing it out there, just like you can see.
Red D: But Jenny, you don't look convinced. You're like, no, I'm not into that. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, it's hard to imagine that you can turn on, but that's the size of, you know, people turned on by different things, aren't they?
Jamie: Thank you.
Jen: It's maybe not my thing.
Red D: Yeah. yeah Not something any of us will probably be able to experience, so it's all just a Star Trek episode. um Okay, I think it's my turn. Well, I... This is a very minor point.
Red D: um Or maybe I'll combine two points. But I there was some great eyebrow acting from Jamie on this call, and as well as the Doctor, when he was about to put that probe into the...
Red D: the brain of V.
Jamie: Don't go there, just finish that sentence quick. Finish that sentence quick.
Red D: It's not broke but it's also pro, but it's also not catalytic converter. That's something to like, I don't know, check the...
Jamie: What the hell?
Red D: You know when he's about to stick something in the Borg's head before he reactivates it, I guess.
Jamie: In where? In where? Where's he about to stick the pro bread?
Red D: He lifts one eyebrow so powerfully. It deserves like its own award. That was super.
Jen: Do you think, you know, is a requirement to be on Star Trek of having really versatile eyebrows?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Because if so, Jamie is a shoe.
Red D: Jamie's yeah.
Jamie: Well, certainly if you're the doctor, because, you know, Julian Bashir also has very mobile rounds. Maybe that's part of what he's genetically modified for.
Jen: Picards probably going to do.
Red D: But I also maybe while talking about acting, I did love the casting of Dr. Frazier, Dr. Frazier, the lady. um I don't know. I don't know her first name. Actually can find out probably Riley.
Jamie: Riley?
Red D: Oh yes, of course. I played by Laurie Hallier, just looking at Wikipedia. she was in Santa Barbara and Days of Our Lives and many other things, but those are the two things I recognize.
Jamie: Oh, amazing.
Red D: um we I'm sure they do a lot of barbara eyebrow acting, but I thought she was really good because as Siri kind of really pointed out, even if she was supposed to be very manipulative, she still was very likable and you rooted for her.
Jamie: Yeah. Yeah, well, she was she was supposed to be the devil, and what a thing to believe that she cracked the boards with the likes of Dr.
Jen: yeah
Jamie: Drake Ramore. Okay.
Red D: Dr. Draco Moore, yes. adam Also, I think, I mean, obviously, when you're casting for non-human characters, there's a kind of a look that develops lot of it. But she did have a kind of ethereal,
Red D: um alien look, I thought. I mean, she was obviously a very attractive but you know human being. But I don't know if you, Jenny, also thought she like kind of, for me, reminded me a little bit of the future Borg queens, or the actresses that played the can' get cast as the Borg queen.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Oh yeah, I can see that.
Red D: something about her eyes face.
Jen: Yeah, I can.
Red D: And it's very like, everything's very clear. I don't
Jen: Yeah, she has bright, bright wide eyes and that's sort of something about her look. Yeah, I totally agree. I think she was actually really good.
Red D: know.
Jamie: She looks a bit like a wasp.
Red D: Yeah.
Jen: She was definitely a good guest actress now you say it actually.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: is Sometimes they're bit hit a mess, but then she was good.
Red D: I liked her.
Jen: been distracted by a cat, pull apologies.
Red D: So yeah. Okay.
Jamie: Aww.
Red D: I think I might have to open a window.
Jamie: Chose the cat.
Red D: I'm going to dive.
Jamie: Chose the cat.
Red D: Okay.
Jamie: Chose the cat!
Jen: Cat is ignoring me.
Red D: Boxes. Oh, too hot.
Jamie: Aww.
Jen: If she comes near, I will show you the cat.
Jamie: Good.
Red D: Right. So should we whiz round? Because Jamie, you still got to catch a train.
Jamie: yeah That's so good.
Jen: Oh yes, gosh.
Red D: um But maybe one or two final points. I
Jen: I just have one left.
Red D: Great.
Jamie: Go for it.
Red D: Good, Jenny.
Jen: at me? So I'm sure you all have this on your list. So the end discussion between Janeway and Chakotay, love that, such an interesting discussion, you know, about, yes, the new collective, or cooperative, should say, didn't act ruthlessly like the board, but they did, quote, impose their collective when will when it served their purpose.
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: however their purpose was to survive during an attack. So it sort of self-defense, self-defense, but does that make it okay?
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: Maybe in that one circumstance, but then there's the line. So yeah, so philosophical leaves you thinking um and which, you know, I love, but also it it reminded me of a Picard um situation, a line where he says, the line shall be drawn here, here and no further.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: um which I love immortal light but also I cannot remember for the life of me what the context that light is so if anyone remembers that
Red D: Oh.
Jamie: I think it's actually with reference to a Borg invasion.
Jen: no because it's something he's I think done that he finds morally questionable and you know he doesn't
Red D: Ah.
Jen: he has to make a decision which he thinks is a morally grey area and maybe he shouldn't have done, but he had to do and that he mustn't ever go, he mustn't go any further. bit I mean, I'm sure lots of people will know exactly lots of Trekkies, doesn't it?
Red D: Do you mean Neupacard or?
Jen: I think it was probably the odd one, because I haven't watched much of the Newt book card.
Red D: Oh, okay.
Jen: But anyway, I thought I'd put it out there in case you guys remembered, and if you don't, I'm maybe going to look it up.
Red D: Next generation. I wonder, I mean, they
Jamie: it's It's a refusal to um basically to self-destruct the ship when it's under invasion by alien enemies, having already sort of made too many compromises, retreats, and um falling back from enemies.
Jamie: ah Yeah, he's he's also a bit traumatized because the Borg had just tortured him. Yeah. Yeah.
Red D: right because he gets assimilated at some point right in the next generation oh good memory jenny
Jamie: Yeah.
Jen: Oh, well, and but nothing about it. that i but Thanks.
Red D: the line that's pretty important um anything else before so make sure we've covered your point um
Jen: Nope. That's me. That's me.
Jamie: stuff
Jen: I'm
Jen: nope that's me that's me i'm done.
Jamie: I think it's a great line, i absolutely love that, and it's a good good reference as well. And a good parallel to draw.
Red D: Yeah, I mean, I think it was, yeah, they it was a bit ambiguous, a bit gray, ah the way it was left. But think they have to kind of judge either their actions or who they were are. And like, yes, if you just think of them as just Borg, then you'll be like, hmm.
Red D: But by their actions, they behaved a bit more honorably. So maybe they're not, you know, I don't know if they come back.
Jamie: Awful folks.
Jen: I think the only thing on that is just that they say something about yes, even if it's the case that for now they're relatively docile, they will
Red D: Yes.
Jamie: Hmm.
Jen: how long do your ideals last with that kind of power is i think what would you go to yeah
Jamie: That's chilling, yeah.
Red D: That's the open question. So, yeah.
Jamie: And the final question on which this ends... Hmm.
Jen: great ending
Red D: Yes. But there was such, someone who was so nice, like the Romulan. I hope that'd be nice for us.
Jamie: four
Red D: Jamie, do you have a final point?
Jamie: I have two. The first of which is, the apparently, and I love this, the concept behind this entire episode was the the fall of the Tower of Babel as the idea of that falling apart of the ah the one mechanism that maintains the Borg as a collective.
Red D: Great.
Jamie: So I love that as a central conceit for this. The other conceit from this episode that I adored was the triangularity Chikote's sideburns. They are amazingly triangular, and I love it.
Red D: The sublime and the ridiculous, I guess there was a good pairing there. But I love that all the backstory you found out about this episode, Jamie.
Jamie: Yeah, I mean, how he got them, that... ah you Sorry, you meant something different.
Red D: Oh, yes, Tower of Babel. I don't even like click but that is a reference I'll actually understand. um Nice. Okay, I heard a little meowing earlier as a feeding time.
Jen: There's a kitty, there's a kitty. Hello kitty.
Jamie: Gonna see a cat? Yay! Aww, Moira!
Red D: kitty. Oh, thank you dy dyy
Jamie: She has grown, she looks enormous!
Jen: Oh yes, she's big kitty, big kitty.
Red D: oh
Jamie: ah stuff
Jen: Look, it's
Jamie: well you Just to be clear, that's the cat, not me.
Red D: Well, my final point was clearly very wrong and I had to update it as I was going on. But was like, wow, Chakotay is surprisingly balanced when he's advising or giving Janeway his opinion. He's like, well, my heart, I really want to help him.
Red D: But if I was in your shoes, I'd be more careful or whatever his words are. And he's being restrained for what he can be.
Red D: I think he could have pushed harder based on previous thoughts.
Jamie: It's called a balanced response to a situation where his emotional heartstrings are being touched.
Red D: Yes, but what I didn't realize is that he was full on sleeper agent and he just was very easily reactivated at their distress call.
Jen: Hmm. Hmm.
Red D: So don't know.
Jamie: Chakote, the Manchurian candidate.
Red D: When he got the call, i was like, oh, I hope he makes it. There's something very creepy but very effective about that scene where they all like connected in the and the link, I guess, and they're trying to reach out in the People are banging on the doors outside.
Red D: like come on, Chakotay, shoot everyone you know and love to save them.
Jen: What?
Red D: Fire. The phaser beam.
Jamie: A bit of a bleak interpretation and a sentence I never thought I'd hear you say read. Chakotay, shoot everyone you love. was oh
Red D: I mean, he stuns them. Oh, wow.
Jamie: Moya, shoot everyone you love.
Red D: There's my protector.
Jamie: She doesn't shoot anyone because she loves no one because she's a cat. ah For those of our listeners who have no idea what's happening, Moya, our beautiful black brindled cat, is just looking at the screen as though she will shoot everyone she loves.
Red D: She looks so shiny.
Red D: She will. She would.
Jamie: No one has been shot, so draw your own conclusions.
Red D: I don't doubt it.
Red D: Great. Any final points before we move on to themes? that um
Jen: Great episode.
Red D: Great episode. Nice. Jenny, you want to kick us off on themes?
Jen: Oh yes, I wrote down a whole load of themes. They just all sprang to me. You know, connection and community, identity, individuality versus is freedom of choice, power versus ideals.
Jen: Oh shit.
Red D: Nice.
Jen: this is
Red D: I think I'll just, I don't really have any themes until our discussion, but it is that judging people by their, who they are, what they are, or what species they are, whatever, versus their actions.
Jamie: and
Red D: But can you also ever fight your programming? guess maybe is the open-ended question. um So that would be my proposal for themes.
Red D: Jamie?
Jamie: Bjorn Borg!
Jamie: That's my thing. You guys have covered the deep shit.
Red D: Great.
Red D: Ah Bjorn, there's a blast from the past. of a Star Player, anyone ready to give i think Jenny, you're also ready again here with Star Player. So do you want to kick us
Jen: i was I was also kind of going to see who you guys went for because I was between two. but um I could just say both.
Red D: off?
Jen: i mean
Jamie: I mean, i you can you can have two characters, because I'm not going for a character. I'm going to return to a previous theme of my star players, and I am going to give it to the Doctor's Probe.
Jen: Okay.
Red D: Inanimate objects.
Jamie: Other people were messing around with, met you know...
Red D: The problem.
Jen: Oh!
Jamie: petty inter-colony disputes and small-scale Manchurian candidates espionage, the Doctor's Probe was bringing a dead species back from the far side of the river Stygis, and no one realised it, or even complimented it. So, I give you the Doctor's Probe, wherever he put it.
Red D: Very good. Jane, does it help with your decision or should i go?
Jen: ah I'm happy to go I don't mind I'm yes so basically um i was gonna choose either Janeway or B'Elanna because they both had some really nice expressive but low-key acting from like ah quite limited lines that they had in this episode and just you know go girls and sorry to pretty but also special mention to two folks eyebrow
Red D: Go for it. Yeah.
Red D: Yeah.
Jamie: It's almost as good as the Probe, but yes.
Red D: Yeah. Yes. There was a lot of eyebrow acting.
Jamie: i would If any eyebrow on this series brings someone back from the dead, it's going to be Tukoc.
Red D: Do you have doctor?
Jamie: Or Tukote's sideburn.
Red D: Then I will, I think I will go for Riley. I thought, um yeah, I thought that character Riley, I bought into it, I guess.
Jamie: You really own spreading tyranny in a colony.
Red D: So yes. Oh, man, I forgot my one point. But anyway, it doesn't matter.
Jamie: We want the point! We want the point!
Jen: Oh, what's the point?
Red D: No, it's very minor. But you know when they're trying to convince too much to go to join the the link They're like, if we don't stop this neuro neuro degeneration, you'll die.
Red D: and I was like, well, maybe he should take up hip hop because ever since I started of hip hop, I basically have to do all these anti brain degenerative exercises in every hip hop class.
Red D: There's a lot of moving arms and legs at different speeds and in different directions and at different pace.
Jen: Oh, wow.
Red D: And some of it is really hard. And i'm like, I did not come here for brain training. I came here for dance training.
Jamie: Can you crypt walk?
Red D: But ah yes, you've asked me this before, but oh my gosh, this is one move I just cannot get. It's more like a warm-up brain training exercise. I'm like, this has really got to be good for my brain. I mean, it's got to be preventing some degeneration, I hope.
Red D: So I don't know why they didn't consider saying, go do some hip-hop classes. It's deathbed, but yeah. OK, I think all done.
Red D: um I yeah sorry that was just a message from a recruiter that was a bit distracting but I'm gonna hit the jingle and thank you rub everybody I hope I can tie these two recordings together hopefully the other recording is so much of all
Jamie: I would say it's been a pleasure, but it's been a privilege and an honor.
Red D: excellent Jamie thank you for your eloquent Latin and your even better lying and and
Jamie: All right, entities remain safe.
Red D: Yeah. and oh let's see what the next episode is.
Jen: That's just so I was thinking.
Jamie: I'm just going to eyebrow sync to the music.
Red D: Darkling. Jenny, do you remember Darkling? don't know.
Jen: I don't know intriguing.
Red D: but
Jamie: These are all sounding like the titles of romantic-y dark noir novels.
Red D: ah We'll see you in a few weeks for Darkling. might be one week. It might be six weeks, but see you then.
